SusanSunflower

I suspect that Thomas had no interest in being in service in any household where HE would not have the benefit of the labors of the other staff ... He would be butler as manager of the char woman and the outdoors man ... Did the old man even have a cook? I'm glad I"m not alone in being confused as to why Thomas believes he's about to get the boot ... or why Carson seems so eager to see the back of him (considering 6 years of bad deeds unpunished) -- even the suggestion that he might have to accept being demoted to from "under butler" to "footman" at the next vacancy... I was mostly struck by how despite the constant litany that "times they are a'changin'" very little has changed at Downton ... a toaster, telephone and vacuum cleaner do not "change" make, even a dead husband/son-in-law and a dead daughter and the introduction of three grandchildren. All told, not.so.much., hardly at all.

it was the character speaking of emancipation as a "done deal" that made me think the story was taking place later in the war (because I thought the Emancipation Proclamation was later and the reality of emancipation achieved later still ... my misperception, but something I read suggested this series was about the reconstruction era, again, my misunderstanding. Northerners might be aghast at the immorality of slavery, while the southerners had crops to plant and harvest and several million "free" African Americans to figure out how to assimilate, as "free" if not necessarily "equal" ... in the opening "trip to the new hospital" we saw black layabouts on the sidewalks as well as white. Overall, my sense of being anchored in a place and time was not well-established. Many freed slaves stayed on the plantation as employees, although I'm not sure how much agricultural labor was needed during the war. I just recently discovered that there were quite a number of people/groups advocating the resettlement of ex-slaves "somewhere else" -- Central America or Africa -- some voluntarily, some incentivized, some involuntarily, and that a fair contingent abolitionists were not demanding racial equality or integration ... many shades and variations, but outcome more uncertain than "live free and prosper" proclamation.

and the Drewe's story is now officially over (I think) so we will never know if she was "touched" by mental illness or grief or just strangely obstinate in some unlikely passive way. We will never know. (I loathe "she must be crazy to act that way" story lines because, in my experience, even crazy people have explanations, reasons for their behavior, bizarre as they may be to the rest of us. )

I was glad to see Tom as well -- although I would anticipate Mary -- in full territorial fashion -- telling him that since she is the estate agent, he's now merely a dependent ... until/unless he finds something to that needs doing. She really was relentlessly bitchy and obstructive again and again. Ridiculous that Cora was never given a chance to do through HER closet to see what she would recommend loaning (or giving) to Mrs. Hughes... that Mary or Cora did not take it upon themselves to act as fashion consultants, and ridiculous that Mrs. Hughes was not given a choice as to what item of clothing to borrow (her wedding, her choice).... and absurd that Anna would have simply taken Mary's suggestion as a carte blanche ... she wouldn't have. (some of Cora's clothes were doubtless extremely expensive, some are new, some are older and past-current-fashion).

Tom's motivation for returning to Downton (so very very quickly) really doesn't wash and I think the family's (particularly Mary and Edith's as age-peers) immediate reaction would be to suspect some sort of disaster that forced his return ... not some grade-school homesickness or desire to live a soft life with servants, meals and laundry taken for granted. And yet we were given nothing except a vague homesickness ... as if Tom were a decade younger and had not already lived a life of exile and homesickness (from/for Ireland) doing conflictual menial labor (revolutionary chauffeuring rich people). Even if he explained he had been financially wiped out by a riverboat card sharp (shades of Gregson), or was alarmed by the effect of his hard-scrabble choices on Sybbie, was it would have made better "sense" ... he looks like a wimp. Imagine instead if he had arrived at the downstairs entrance late that evening, to be greeted by the happy and exhausted downstairs staff -- filled in on the goings-on -- and told his story ... No, Tom would not have barged in on Carson's speech, making it all about the "cousins' reunion" ... he just wouldn't ... and he certainly would have cared "how it looked." Imagine him surprising Edith and Mary and Robert at the breakfast table ...

I couldn't get over why this woman -- who was a northerner who chose to live in the post-war South -- was being quite so outspoken about the righteousness of the emancipation, the result of a war which had cost everything for the south, not least its dignity and wealth. I didn't believe she would be so clueless or reckless (wrt her own safety) or the head-nurse would have sent her to that nasty wild-west hospital, putting her significant risk to life and limb. I saw the potential for endless predictable damsel-in-distress "drama." The trek up the stairs to her proposed living quarters cemented a character taking inconceivable risk as a woman alone. I was baffled by the preserved wealth of the Green family and initially also thought it was a flash back. Again such "modern" argumentative young women. The eye makeup and makeup in general was my deal-breaker and I bailed. The soldier with gangrenous leg contrasted with the still bleeding eye injury also threw me ... where and when was the battle that cost that soldier his eye? Yes, it had a Lifetime Movie level of production values. The prospect of Northern white "nobility" teaching life lessons to the rusticated southerners. I figured black character would arrive eventually and dreaded how the series would deal (or not) with this "white savior" character.

And as someone mentioned wrt the Cologne New Years Eve Miscreants, suffering does not automatically make people more compassionate and may have the opposite effect, by leaving a residua of abiding anger and resentment, encouraging the opposite ... and yet, we expect Edith, due to her low status, to have more rather than less compassion towards the Drewes (as well as gratitude for helping her out in a crisis, granted a poorly thought out faux fix). I was startled by Edith's absolute sense of entitlement (and lack of guilt or regret wrt how this worked out for the Drews) probably "realistic" enough -- might makes right.

If Mary can be an accomplished and competitive rider, Edith can be a near-concert-level pianist .... seriously ... Cora when last seen was doing embroidery (finally) ... Edith was once seen reading a book ... or maybe just carrying it ...

@ Glade -- Very Romanoffs meet Dr. Who! Only, wait, does Edith actually play the piano?

TAB is available on the PBS website until 01/25/2015 -- and -- even better -- on the PBS channel on Roku (meaning it can in theory be recorded -- I've just started with Roku and need to reconfigure my VCR/Dish Receiver (byebye) configuration but I have seen/been told it can be done) ... I have also read that some personal use downloader/streaming sites can overcome the obstacle to downloading from the PBS site, although I am doubtful and suspect the infernal Cruise Commercial provides obstruction. Those downloaders claiming to be able to download PBS videos have very limited free trials and I'm not ready to spend hours on troubleshooting/FAQ site exploring. Roku streamed PBS generally better than online and then suddenly went to hell at 9 P.M. watching TAB, however, I managed almost the entire last Downton episode without pause at a speed of 0.5 mbps -- I have terrible slow broadband, hence, my desire to download/record off screen during off-hours (after I go to bed) Anyway, as a result my viewing was a bit fragmented but I liked it better than I expected (since I loathe Mark Gattis) ... I missed many, even most of the in-jokes without feeling put down or like a clueless geek. Win win. I find Gatiss' too clever by half routine be off-putting. I was astonished at both Cumberbatch and Freeman's ability to shape-shift and the outstanding pretty much shtick-free acting ... I expected to hate it but wanted my chance. I'll try again over the weekend to VCR it for posterity eta: or at least to rewatch without all those pauses. fwiw: I live at 9,000 feet and have zero over-the-air channels, even with antenna capacity.

Just say "no" ... it just doesn't take any skill nor did it "solve" her blackmailer problem or Tony Gillingham's ... It's like Mary helping Carson and Hughes -- It will be in the grand hall. Or Anna -- I'll make the appointment, pay for it and go with you. Just do what I tell you! It's like Robert -- But railroads are safe as houses and don't go broke so I don't have to follow my investment or my consultant's advice... or Edith -- I've decided to keep Marigold afterall ... Run along now. Not "managing" -- just giving other people direct orders to do what you want! What a skill. It just made me laugh.

Mary "handling" the blackmail failed to handle the blackmailer ... who simply and successfully went around her to her father ... who wrote a check ... Robert's a known idiot but (first) to have paid and then (second) to think Mary showed "true grit" ... I was stunned.

I just watched this episode last night (I thought I had already seen it). Thomas was deliberately instigating opportunities for people to reject him. Andy is wary of Thomas' attentions, solicitous offers of help, so Thomas doubled-down. After rejecting Baxter's friendly conversation, concern, advice, he also doubled-down being ruder and ruder. I wasn't not entirely clear why Carson was quite publicly rejecting Thomas' offers of help as if his employment was superfluous, even a burden, hardly needed in the running of the house. Because Thomas had an interview for another position when Downton was downsizing and Thomas' chance of advancement was low?? No, I didn't understand it. Carson should be glad that Thomas is looking ahead, going for interviews and hopefully soon to depart Downton (liking Thomas has nothing to do with it) ... or I'm missing something.

Well, rather than "drama" the main trend on Downton Abbey for the last seasons has been to make virtually every character we once cared about unlikeable ... I'm very sympathetic to Edith, but she is becoming unlikeable (and her likability has never been overwhelming.) I liked her for her courtesy toward Strallan when he was Mary's discard and invited her to take a drive ... she even became conversational wrt agriculture ... I liked her willingness to learn to drive a tractor when that skill was needed and her willingness to work in the hospital, to reach out to fake-Patrick (and the blind gay soldier, what that her as well?) when it was rather clearly not her natural inclination to "get dirty." I liked her willingness to put herself and her name out there attached to her column and to investigate Gregson, meaning she learned he was married and to deal with that. Deer in the headlights Edith -- unable to decide about moving to London, unable to cope with the editor or Mary or Mrs. Drewe -- is Edith not only backsliding, but regressing to a helpless Edith I don't think we have seen before. As with Mrs. Drewe, if only she could/would speak for herself.

I think Mrs. Drewe's prolonged "mourning" is unlikely and badly written. Marigold is alive and well-cared for. The reality is that Edith's "claim" trumps Mrs. Drewe's and, because of the class system, Edith would win any contest. There is a birth certificate. Edith is bio-mom. Again, if Mrs. Drewe had been stalking Marigold -- for a glimpse, hug, peck on the cheek -- as we hear about often enough in child custody cases (and this was written to fit those stereotypes) -- we'd be worrying about her other children and her sanity in jeopardizing her husband's position/farm. But it wasn't credible because she wasn't "nutz" and she had not.a.chance.in.hell. of regaining custody of Marigold, ever. If Fellowes had let Margie SPEAK FOR HERSELF, we would doubtless better understand; for example, if she had decided to get her revenge on her husband, to revenge herself on Edith, by publicly ruining Edith's reputation by announcing to the village that she'd seen the birth certificate and Marigold was Edith's bastard child; if she had even decided to kidnap and then murder/suicide ... instead, we have mush... and mush that doesn't leave me terribly sympathetic to Madwoman Drewe ...

yes, and Edith is failing to accept the reality that Mrs. Drewe is, in fact, not okay with the current situation and is not reliably going to help Edith keep her secret ... Edith is still more worried about Mary finding out the truth (and losing face with Mary) than with protecting Marigold ... Arrive at the livestock show, see Mrs. Drewe, turn around and LEAVE ... avoid a scene and most importantly avoid Marigold being placed in the middle ... it's not good custodial behavior ... kids aren't beanbags to be tossed about. Oh, and yes, the child Marigold is wan and strangely apathetic. I'm glad this is the last season so that we won't have to watch Edith fail to cope with Marigold's apparent developmental delays and emotional problems -- What, oh what will Mary think? How Mary will gloat.

Calling what happened with Marigold and Mrs. Drew kidnapping is a serious exaggeration. She took the (bored, "neglected") child home and relinquished her immediately when demanded. She should have told someone or gotten permission. She was deeply inconsiderate but probably not in her "right mind." Knowing her mental state wrt Marigold and the fact that she was obviously present at the livestock show, I'd look in askance at both Edith and Mr. Drewe for not keeping an eye on both. There was no apparent malice in her taking Marigold home for a nap and a snuggle which was done - afaict - openly. Delusional? possibly. I didn't "get" grief stricken, in fact, the whole thing seemed inexplicable and doubtful. Any sane person would anticipate bad and serious consequences, at least an ugly row. Could/should have been more explicitly written -- say, found with the child on the road to London after running out of gas ... or found at the train station, dithering, without the needed fare ... If the idea, alternatively, was that Mrs. Drewe was demonstrating to Edith what a bad mother she was in punishing fashion (I'll show you what can happen when you leave your child unattended) it failed. Mrs. Drewe's mental state uncertain. Cartoonish.

agree -- if Carson's retirement is even a year away, Thomas or someone should be taking on responsibilities and shadowing. Keeping track of the wine cellar, and household financials take not only practice but demonstrated worthiness of trust (cough) and ability (some folks can't do maths or aren't vigilant about routine tasks, like household inventories). This would be doubly so, if Carson's retirement also meant loss of Mrs. Hughes' expertise in household management and dealing with Mrs. Pattmore as well as other female household staff and I suspect the outside neighborhood. Seems like the transition team should be under consideration already. Eta: With Thomas' history of deceit and theft, I cannot for a moment imagine Robert deciding to advance him to butler ... ever.

wrt Anna: I think a decade or so of being married to someone she cannot trust with "the truth" because he might kill someone might take the bloom out of one's cheek and the bounce out of one's step ... and if that has ever been addressed, I don't remember it. Bates finding Mary's contraceptives ... Bates' jealous glowering at Green, imho, made Anna Green's target. She may love John Bates, but she fears him, his judgments and his moods ... never addressed. eta: In fact -- in the bad old days, before divorce as an accepted alternative -- many men ruled their "roost" by intimidation and punishing, and domestic violence was common enough. I thought for a while that Fellowes are developing John Bates as a dangerous and rough-edge character, they might actually be "going there" ... how happy marriages become "dysfunctional" and oppressive -- but no ... no unhappy marriages at Downton, except Shrimpy and Susan and maybe Rose's in-laws (as if anyone cared about them) ...

regarding the Downton pallor: for many characters, it seems to come and go depending on the make-up department... one season it was pronounced. I think it's a matter of continuity and evenness since the actors' natural skin tone vary with the weather and the amount of outdoor activity (and vacation time) they enjoy. One season everyone was grossly porcelain. It was noticeable. I think it was shortly after the season of the very.bad.wigs. The actor playing Thomas may have immaculate perfect pale skin in real life, or he may be pale enough that, particularly in HD, his average sometimes spotty complexion looks dreadful ... I'd guess they applied the "white mask" at some point and found the effect striking and kept it. HD must be a nightmare for make-up artists and actors alike.

any "sane" Edith would have decamped for London, even before Gregson left for Germany. She could have had a small flat in the same building ... or conveniently near by to Gregson and the magazine ... I'm surprised that Gregson didn't insist ... but Fellowes would have never allowed... We saw so little of Gregson and it was so very long ago ... he's just a shadow of a memory (I seem to recall him as good looking ... a lot like a younger Strallan)

Mary remains the "golden child" and Edith's second-place "also-ran" status is constantly evident ... even now as columnist, magazine owner, mother, etc. Yes, it may have been petty (or not) for Edith to question just how much actual work was involved in Mary's position as estate manager ... (particularly given Robert's apparent utter incompetence at managing Downton, his ringing endorsement of Mary, seriously. Worrying about Mary's ability to lift heavy things? Really? As if she didn't have "lackies" to do that ... Have we seen any updates on the ambitious new tenant housing Matthew and Tom began, that I would assume Mary is now "overseeing" to some degree?

I think the hospital story line is this season's championship rose analog ... times are changin' and the manor supported (and managed) local hospital is no longer the hallowed traditional symbol of the benevolent aristocracy's good-works -- and could even, by it antiquated ways, hinder the progress of local local health care -- much as an aged but beloved local doctor (who hasn't learned a "new trick" in 20-30 years) can become a liability rather than an asset. It was "time" for Violet to let someone else win the rose contest ... it may now be time for the "family's hospital" to close its doors (now that automobile make traveling to a more regional facility practical) ... I'm not sure how it will end up or what part Cora may play ... she would be the obvious next generation family representative on the board of directors (to be followed in turn by Mary) ...

Edith only knew what Daisy had witnessed -- the three women -- Cora, Mary and Anna dragging/transporting Pamuks body back to his room, but We did not witness Daisy telling Edith. I never understood why Edith did not also lash out at Cora, who certain demanded proper behavior from her while privately aiding and abetting utterly wanton behavior from her sister -- with an exotic foreigner at that ... Edith wanted -- she said, perhaps honestly -- for Pamuk's father to "know the truth" that Pamuk did not die in his sleep in his own bed. Beyond that, I don't remember ... but I don't remember any rub-off of the incident in Edith's relationship with either Anna or Cora -- the anger at the hypocrisy only applied to Mary. -- and it was never mentioned again because Edith's betrayal was so unforgivably wicked (in JF's world). Meanwhile, as I recall, Thomas had contributed to the understair's community grapevine ... and Carson had been warned by a colleague in another house that there was gossip .... The matter of Thomas "helpfully" showing Pamuk the way to Mary's room and unlocking the door (and taking the key back to its hook) was also never mentioned. WRT Mrs. Drewe and the birth certificate, I recall wondering at the time if she could, in fact, read ... regardless, unlike other people who put 2+2 together, Mrs. Drewe had actually seen evidence that Marigold was Edith's illegitimate child -- possibly even that Marigold's father was Gregson, i.e. the illegitimate child product of Edith's relationship with a married man ... which "might" give her the power to ruin to Edith ... or at least blackmail/convince Edith to be conciliatory ... but that aspect was never explored ... a real H-bomb of a weapon to be used only in extreme emergency, when all hope had passed ... Mr. Drewe's insistence in Keeping Edith's Secret was part of why Mrs. Drewe worried about her husband's fidelity ... I wondered that she didn't question if HE was Marigold's father ... but then I realized in the world of JF, she was alternately much too crazy and/or too stupid to have such deep thoughts.

wrong thread -- sorry