SusanSunflower

let's see -- Anna with her pregnancy, Robert with his dyspepsia, Carter with his history of prior collapse, elderly Violet, Thomas with his existential crisis ... Probably will be Mary thrown from a horse or someone with a broken ankle who slipped on a wet floor, maybe Tom with a gallbladder attack (from all that rich food) or Moseley run down by a bus (like Greene!!!)

or Edith is outgoing, seizes the initiative and takes risks (and suffers consequences) ... whatever ... I always thought Tom and Edith were a natural pairing -- "journalism," interest in the outside world and "issues" -- obviously it never even crossed Fellowes' mind. Edith blossoms when given affection and a kind regard -- who knows what she might become if allowed both that security and autonomy from Downton.

The costume department is doing him no favors -- he's pretty amazingly gorgeous in Death Comes to Pemberley and distractingly attractive in The Imitation Game ... but he's not a big man and next to the padded girth of Robert, Tom and Carson, he looks like a stick figure, particularly since we're used to seeing those other men in the same room with Mary, he looks tiny next to Mary ... Remember how Dan Stevens bulked up over his run? ... Much as Julian Overton at 5'10" looked "short" next to Tom Cullen, who I think may be around 6' 5" ... most folks look short next to someone 6'5" ... Cullen also has Tommy Tune legs that go all the way up to his navel ...

sorry -- thought I'd canceled that Scarlet is worthy of loathing, Mary is not ... I don't like her much but nuf said.

Good points A lot of people have left but I couldn't remember anyone actually being dismissed without reference except Edna, who never stayed gone, was given endless assist in "contacting" bio-dad's parents. Her unmarried pregnancy would not have been "fixed" with a reference which she did not deserve, since she got in "trouble' deliberately enough. Jane invented some crisis that necessitated leaving -- and Robert paid for her son's schooling -- and I'd guess she got a glowing reference. But, you're right, I don't remember most of them, and mostly remember the "soft-hearted" decisions to not ruin lives.

I'm not sure I've ever hated a fictional character, maybe Uriah Heep when I was a teenager, but actually he was pitiable and loathsome. Mary's simply not.all.that. Yes, I'm far from convinced she's a "nice person" or particularly intelligent. She lacks curiosity and enthusiasm and initiative. Even in her quest to "get her own way" she tend to bully rather than win on points. She "bullied' Matthew to the point I feared she might poison her marriage. She's poisoned her relationship with Edith. She's a bulldozer. Oh, I just remembered, she denied being an avid equestrian at her dinner with Henry ... I guess that was too stereotypic for a woman of her station. ETA: Which made me laugh, as did impressing him with her announcement that she had a career as estate manager ... she was trying so hard to be "thoroughly modern Millie" in light of the praise Gwen and Edith had received. Cora was vapid for most several years ... hence the laudanum jokes. But she's often rallied to be thoughtful, even perceptive ... and she's generally been outwardly caring, although her obliviousness wrt to Edith and Sybil at time was baffling ... laudanum. ETA: Actually I attributed Cora's vapid qualities to years of suffering Violet's disapproval ... she had surrendered years ago ... only free to be herself in her bedroom with her loving husband. oh, and laudanum.

None of those I named ever called her out ... ultimately, yes, that's synchophatic behavior ... must not displease the Queen ... peace in the valley must be maintained. Did I include Sybil or Violet? No, I didn't. Oh, gosh. They are/were women neither are/were reliably under her command. hmmm. Tom isn't actually Mary's equal, nor it Carson, nor was Matthew ... see how that works ... that was my point Mary's appreciation of, affection for and interest in Sybil increased exponentially after her death. As far as I recall little sister Sybil didn't really often blip Mary's radar while alive ... except for the elopement ... and like Edith's letter, that endangered the family name.

The only people Mary seems to like much are syncophants ... oh, and men and servants. That doesn't necessarily make her a misogynist either ... nor does her snarky wit make her a feminist. Scarlett O'Hara, imho, is worthy of loathing. Mary lives in her little Universe as Queen thereof, when she might venture out, take a risk, have some fun, raise some hell, by doing something, beyond court battles with her sister and the tedium of keeping her many suitors wanting more.

Remember: The Drewes are also still burdened with keeping Edith's secret. They can't tell the real story of why they are relocating, needing a new farm. They will have to come up with some other lie to explain it. One explanation for Mrs. Drewe's irrational behavior was the burden of having to stay silent, to keep the Edith's secret. She had been grievously hurt, wronged, and could tell no one. I'd guess talking to her husband just opened the wound further and poured salt in it -- he was to blame, he had lied to her, betrayed her by using her and placing her feelings second to Edith's need for a foster mother. Either Drewe might tell the story and even be believed or ridiculed as malevolent gossip mongerers, but they might well never get another farm because trustworthiness in the face of such indiscretion. Rock/hard place forever.

Well, I certainly noticed about a decade ago when catty women reappeared in British productions with a vengeance ... Feminism (Sisterhood is powerful, etc.) had sort of ruined the old-fashioned ambitious women are bitches memes, etc. that were common in my childhood, pre-feminism, when business women were not uncommonly depicted as underhanded, husband-stealing man-eaters etc. See "The Women"

Yes, it's hard to know what opinions a tutor or governess of that era might impart. They might be secretly intellectual or they might be sufficiently conservative, possibly religious , to consider all French scandalous libertines (like my elementary school teacher suggested), Folies Bergère, Place Pigalle and the can-can, ooh-la-la ... we will never know unless someone presses Fellowes ... If they had a French tutor, which was not uncommon, of course they would learn French prejudices along with the language! eta: Hard to guess Fellowes' prejudices wrt the French, again, does he seem them as the source of glorious things or politically as blaggards?

Most of us have known someone who regularly snark but adds little substance to the conversation ... it's not vapid but it's tedious and shallow. Most people outgrow it. Mary's overweaning competitiveness is tiresome and make her opinions untrustworthy. Violet is much the same way actually. Does Violet really care about the quality of the hospital's care/services or is she only concerned about losing her control of the hospital? Does Mary care about what's best for Tom and Sybbie or is she just glad to have her trusted ally and admirer returned to her fold? Does Mary care about Carson or is he her unwaveringly reliable supporter, unconditionally? Queen of the Universe syndrome. Hoists herself up by putting other people down, sometimes just with an arched eyebrow -- how witty.

I was certainly hoping to see serious money changing hands ...

I always saw shadows of the movie Rebecca ("Last night I dreamt I went to Manderley again) in Strallan and Edith -- a relatively mousy young woman is swept up by a wealthy (and very depressed) widowed man only to discover he is emotionally damaged, concealing secrets. The very inexperienced young woman keeps to her marriage vows as the ugly truth of his first marriage is revealed and, after overcoming multiple obstacle, they live happily ever after. Edith wanted to be a devoted patient wife. She declared her ambition to heal Strallan (which just made him miserable) and to overcome all obstacles. There was no reason they couldn't/wouldn't have been happy or at least happy enough .. but yes, Edith would have married anyone just to be a married woman and someone's beloved wife.

The thing is prejudice varies with the environment and subject and hatred of all.things.French has surged and waned in England for centuries as various wars and competitions have complicated the relationship between them, so being taught to hate the French by xenophobic or francophobic tutor seems plausible. France and things French have not been mentioned before that I remember. The United States loved the French for more than a century ... they supported our war of independence in a number of essential ways ... We loved the French Revolution... you'd never guess these days when the French are popularly the butt of many jokes, somehow surrounding their surrender with Hitler's invasion in WWII, most Americans knowing little, almost nothing about French losses in WWI. ... Americans tend to believe that we "bailed out" both France and England and they owe us ... etc. eta: I'm not sure what "prejudice" most people would consider they have been taught ... my mother was a snob ... but I was not "taught" prejudice so much as taught to not.be.vulgar .. What prejudice was Mary referring to? Racial prejudice, class prejudice, even antisemitism were business as usual ... Odd thing to say, either way ...

Thank you. That at least makes sense and is something a real person might confess about their tutor. I had several none-too-bright elementary school teachers who taught things that I discovered later were categorically false .. not up for discussion, just false -- usually designed to PROVE American superiority in all things by, for example, disparaging the morals of the French ...

I really liked the Rosamund's dress on Mary ... it was less "twee", almost bohemian with it's tapestry-like pattern and drape, also deeper hued. Actually, I think I most consistently favor Cora's clothes, just exquisite and very artistic. Edith's are "young professional," often stunning and modern. I also prefer Edith's wardrobe to Mary's though her color-palette isn't remotely close to mine.

yes, the foreshadowing of wimmen in peril was too much .... see also, the foreshadowing of racist violence ... it's all too self-consciously a tableau of issues ... triggered my "run forrest run" fight-or-flight anxiety instincts.

Henry is supposed to be rather louche ["disreputable or sordid in a rakish or appealing way"], especially in that "car palace" dinner scene, the flatness of which I blame on camera angle (too far away, not intimate) and the lighting (too dark) -- if there was a spark (and there may have been), we missed it. I think Mary's too animated in other scenes -- hello Tom!!! -- to blame Dockerty's personal life. I rewatched 1/2 hour of Imitation Game which included a scene with Goode's character central in a room filled with about 20 characters - he nailed it ... Dockerty does better in reaction, but she's uneven and her serial lack of chemistry can't be ignored. Goode might well have been holding back, in true Downton fashion.

yes, and upstairs census lost Sybil and Matthew and gained Sybbie and George and Marigold (and respective nannies) ... cost-cutting by downsizing increasing the workload as usual ... see also using "temps" i.e. day-labor, who need to be shown the lay of the land and supervised closely until vetted ... because the extra work for downstairs is cheaper ...

Gwen left before Tom broke the no-ex-servants in the dining room ban ... She wouldn't have mentioned it to avoid discomfiting her hosts. The problem with no one recognizing Gwen was that it refuted the family's paternalistic mythology that they were the benevolent guardians and benefactors of downstairs ... every sparrow, sorta. Also realizing that Sybil actually did things ... actions speaking louder than words... with Gwen's transformation into another do-gooder as the result.

... but also not an intentional or conscious outcome ... I wasn't sure if she was talking about her compliment or Edith's success ... and apparently I wasn't alone ... Mary's not given to self-deprecation ... Her comment about looking shabby in Rosamund's dress, in another era, might be considered "fishing for a compliment" ... at least she gave him permission to give her an intense look-over ... and scored his approval ...

because Fellowes is such a wonderful writer and gives us all this gristle and confusion to discuss endlessly without resolution ... I realized that Daisy and Mr. Mason is a retread/rerun of Mrs. Patmore getting her brother on the war memorial ... which might explain why Daisy thinks that ear-splitting whining might be effective and badgering Cora might work ... even though Mrs. Patmore and everyone downstairs should have taught Daisy better manners. because: No one every actually manages to get themselves fired at Downton EVER ... blerg. In anything like real-life Daisy would be near her last warning wrt going-off about Mr. Mason, even downstairs, where every single person would be shushing her ... if only to avoid Carson or Mrs. Hughes ovehearing and getting a scolding, Mrs. Patmore first and foremost.

Still I wondered as well ... even at 4 hours ... it was the middle of the night and the car would allow her to lie down in some privacy ... better than miscarrying in the relative public space of the train ... and to have access to towels and blankets, etc.

The world does not exist to make Mary happy ... I believe Matthew loved Lavinia and Lavinia loved Matthew ... I even believe it would have been a happy marriage, quite possibly happier than Mary and Matthew's ended up being (minus Mary pulling aristocratic rank on Matthew, siding with Robert and assuring him that she knew best). It was Mary's obligation to avoid "stealing" Matthew away from Lavinia (as it would be her obligation to avoid stealing Edith's beau or any other "attached" man, alienation of affection and breech of promise meant something in those days) ... It was Matthew' responsibility to be faithful ... which he largely was, given the remorse he felt afterwards. Funny no rumors attached to Mary+Matthew after the fact. Yes, even if she repented having sent him away... even if she pined at night into the wee hours of the morning ... Matthew was not "free" ... he was engaged, he was at the very eve of his wedding ... it's a soap opera, Lavinia died, Matthew grieved and felt remorse to Mary's annoyance....