scriggle

My eyes! The NFL owes me new retinas for those horrendous orange uniforms.

The full title of the Accords is A Framework for the Registration and Deployment of Enhanced Individuals. That is enough to arouse suspicion that the UN/government have no intention of limiting them to the Avengers. Enhanced people cannot stop being enhanced. Tony, Rhodey, Sam, & Scott can give up their tech and be normal people. Natasha and Clint are simply highly skilled, highly trained people. What if the UN decides that's not enough. That to retire, Steve has to somehow not use his powers, his supersoldier abilities? That stopping a crime he sees in progress is a violation? It's a slippery slope and Steve has seen where that sort of things leads during WWII - internment for Japanese-Americans and concentration camps.

I'm not sure what this means. Who was Steve trusting? Is he supposed to blindly follow Tony's lead? Just trust Tony above all others? Hell, from what's shown on screen, they're barely friends in the MCU. They're certainly not best friends. Tony cared about assuaging his own guilt. He thought that by signing the Accords he would no longer be responsible for things because then he would just be following orders. Because let's face it, that's what his argument amounts to. Being subject to the Accords would not somehow magically prevent collateral damage. And he tried to guilt Steve into agreeing with him. Steve only intervened to prevent Bucky from being killed by a death squad. That was it. It was the UN/government that allowed Zemo to get past their "security" by posing as the psychiatrist they hired that led to Bucky being triggered. From that point on, Steve was trying to stop Zemo from unleashing the other supersoldiers. He tried to explain that to Tony but Tony would not listen. I don't see any "damn the Avengers" in Steve's actions.

Wow. He looks much older than 18 months. He is going to be one tall man when he grows up.

No we didn't get enough focus on Steve's reasoning; we got focus on Tony's manpain. (I'm still bitter that there was so much focus on Tony In the last Cap movie.) It's important to note the first person to oppose the Accords is Sam, not Steve. There's just that one brief scene where Steve is shown reading the Accords prior to learning about Peggy but Steve never really tried to persuade others not to sign while Tony et al were really pushing for him to sign. Tony's wealth and power protect him from suffering consequences from his actions. Look at what he's promising. Psychiatric care instead of a Wakandan prison for Bucky. T'Challa's on board with that? The guy who wants to kill/tries to kill the man thinks killed his father. Tony is still a private citizen unless he's been acting as an agent of the government all along without telling the others (which makes him an utter bastard) then I still maintain he's has no authority to make promises. In fact he says "I'll make a motion." What if the motion is denied? There's no guarantee his motion will pass and based on what is known about Ross and the general corruption of the governments of the MCU, it's more likely it would be rejected. Yet Tony makes it sound like he can wave his magic wand and make it happen (because that's always worked for him before - imho Tony's been badly played by Ross and he doesn't realize it.) The fact still remains that you don't sign something and then negotiate. Negotiations are supposed to come first. Steve would lose what little leverage he has by signing before gaining concessions. It's evident to me that Ross et al really really want Steve in particular under their control. Once Steve signs they have what they want. If he doesn't comply, he's sent to the raft. Which I suspect wouldn't bother Ross at all as Steve would still be under his control and he can take another go a recreating the serum. Clint, Scott, and even Wanda got involved because Steve asked. But it was not about the Accords. He asked for help in stopping Zemo from unleashing the other supersoldiers in Siberia. His weaponized suit. A suit that withstood a both a blow from Thor's hammer and his lightning. People seem to forget that Steve may be a supersoldier but he's still flesh and blood. Steve was fighting with his hands and shield, no weapons. I do blame him for not taking a breath to calm down. Watch that scene again. Tony acknowledges Bucky had been brainwashed. They watch the tape and yes, it's horrible. But Tony isn’t out of control until he asks Steve if he knew, and when Steve says yes, that’s when Tony attacks. So it seems like he's more pissed at Steve for not telling him and that he wants to punish Steve by killing Bucky (listen to the commentary about that scene.) Both Steve and Bucky fight defensively, trying to neutralize the suit. It's not until Steve is in real danger when Tony has him down and is throwing punches which shatter concrete that Bucky takes the offensive and tries to disable the arc reactor. Tony blows his arm off. Bucky is completely vulnerable at that point and Tony blasts him in the back. It's then that Steve goes on the offensive. Tony is able to get the better of Steve because of the suit. He tells Steve to stay down and is preparing to blast him, a blast that would've blown him out the opening and off the cliff, surely killing him. So no, Tony does not get a pass from me for that last fight. That's no longer emotional heat of the moment. That's cold-blooded murder.

Didn't say I liked it. ;-) But these things go back a long way - Cal Ripkin Jr and probably even earlier than that.

It all goes back to Tony's hubris. Looking back at the scene where Ross presents the Accords to the Avengers. Steve turns to Tony who has distanced himself from the group sitting in the corner; the look on Steve's face is one of betrayal. I could almost see the thought bubble "you knew about this and didn't tell us." Because Tony had decided the Accords were the right thing to do and everyone was going to sign on his say so. Tony can't see beyond his wealthy white male privilege. And later the scene with FDR's pens, he's basically trying to blackmail/coerce Steve into signing: He's making promises he has no right to make; promises he has no authority to keep. What incentive is there for the UN/government to amend the Accords once they have what they want - all the Avengers signed on and under their control? None. Tony is talking a good game but to him those accords are just paper. He has no problem breaking them when he wanted to do something Ross wouldn't allow him to do.

Because we celebrated both Derick Jeter and Mariano Rivera at Fenway?

I loved the first movie. I bought the VHS and watched it multiple times. I even bought the novelization. The second movie was okay. The others I didn't care for. Then Gibson revealed his batshit crazy and I had a hard time watching anything he was in. But a week or so ago I was flipping channels and landed on the first movie so I stopped to watch it. I'd forgotten at how good Gibson was as Riggs and the great chemistry between Riggs and Murtaugh.

And because they didn't want to make Tony Stark an outright villain which killing Steve as in the comics would've done.

We'll have to agree to disagree. For me, based on the points I cited above, I came to the conclusion that the governments were using the Accords to violate people's rights to due process. In fact, they way Bucky, Zemo, & Team Cap (especially Wanda who was straitjacket, collared, and looked to be drugged), violate the UN's own Declaration of Human Rights. http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/ I'd even argue that the Accords themselves violate Article 4; the Accords are a fancy way of holding the Avengers and other enhanced people in servitude.

Bucky was a suspect that the government issued a shoot on sight order for. He was only arrested because Steve intervened. When Steve asked if Bucky would receive legal representation he was laughed at. A clear violation of his rights as a US citizen and his human rights per the UN. The government incarcerated Zemo in the containment cell that they put Bucky in. The other Ross makes it clear that Zemo isn't receiving any due process. Clint et al were imprisoned in the raft, a prison made to hold the likes of Loki. They were still there days/weeks later when Steve broke them out and Tony refused Ross's call. It's a fair conclusion that they're going to be held indefinitely without trial.

But Clint and the others should not be held indefinitely and without due process. That seems to be the endgame of the Accords - regulating enhanced individuals. If you're enhanced and you don't do as we say we will put you in prison without any regard to your civil rights. Clint technically isn't enhanced; in fact the only truly enhanced Avengers are Steve, Wanda, and Vision (I'm surprised the worlds' governments consider him to be a "person") along with the absent avengers - Thor, who's an alien and Bruce. The others can give up their tech and be normal people. The enhanced can not stop being enhanced. That's why the loaded word internment was used by Steve. He sees where the Accords could lead because he's seen it happen. Ross likens Thor and Bruce to nuclear weapons which tells me all I need to know about what the Accords are really all about. Here’s an analogy. Bucky is to Hydra as the Avengers are to the Accords and by extension, to Ross. The complete control Hydra had over Bucky, to use as a weapon however they chose whenever they wanted, this is Ross would prefer the Avengers were. Subject to the UN panel/government control). Bucky is the result of complete government control of Supersoldiers. So Bucky becomes a representation of Steve’s fears in regard to the Accords, the slippery slope where the enhanced are weapons to be wielded by the government. Ross has that pesky problem of free will to contend with. Hydra neatly removed that problem. But Ross has the Raft where any enhanced can be kept and no doubt experimented on because Ross wants to recreate the serum that creates supersoldiers.

Yeah, at least something like that would've been interesting.

I'm not sure if even that would've worked. Steve has always questioned orders. His trust in the government has been sorely tested and he's found that the government is not trustworthy. Using him as a performing monkey in Cap1. SHIELD using the tesseract to create weapons in the Avengers. All of Cap2. And Tony, well he's the one who told the government to fuck-off in IM2. Basically doing the Civil War story line was a bad idea all around.

Tony was disengaged enough from his business that Stane was able to sell to "bad guys" right under his nose. Also is AoU, I don't remember the details but it's established that Tony knew a black market arms dealer. She saw her family killed and was trapped in the rubble with an unexploded Stark bomb for days. Why is her wanting revenge on Tony different than Tony wanting revenge on Bucky for killing his parents? Both events are years in the past. Both are trying to do better. Also Wanda initially was fighting for her country. Hence Steve's line "What kind of monster would let a German scientist experiment on them in order to protect their country?". When Hill says they're not at war Steve points out they (Wanda & Pietro) are. As pointed out above, Wanda (& Pietro) turned on Ultron to fight with the Avengers. Imagine that. Captain America being the hero of his own movie. IMHO, Steve was right about the Accords. It might have seemed like it only applied to the Avengers as they were the ones asked to sign it but its full title, The Framework for the Registration and Deployment of Enhanced Individuals, gives the game away. Significantly Steve is the only one shown reading the phonebook of legalese that was sprung on them. Sprung on them by Ross who has wanted so badly to replicate the super soldier serum and who thinks of Thor and Hulk as weapons. And Tony's sign now and we'll amend it later is pure bullshit. That's not how contracts work and Tony should damn well know that. But then Tony does as he pleases all the time. When Ross refused to look at the evidence Tony had, Tony broke the Accords he signed and supposedly believed so strongly in to do what he believed was the right thing to do. And he suffered no consequences for breaking the Accords; he should be in the raft too. But he's not. That probably has nothing to do with the fact that he's a powerful billionaire, right? Yeah, the plot was too fucking convoluted and required incredible amount of luck to work, that's poor writing. Considering what we'd been shown the winter soldier to be capable of, he was holding back. Holding back against people that were out to kill him on sight. He's defending himself and Steve. Just as Steve is defending him. This is a comic book movie; comic book physics apply. Crossbones survived a helicarrier and a building falling on him. He should have been well and truly dead after Cap2. IMHO they needed to remember that Cap3 was a Captain America movie instead of IM4/Avengers3 which is what it felt like to me.

Fucking unbelievable! They'll have to sign someone now. Please don't let it be Tebow.

The variable with Vision was Thor. He gave Vision the boost with his powers.

I looked it up. Plunkett started his career with the Pats (1971-1975), then the 49ers '76-'77, and last the Raiders '78-'86.

I think it just goes to show that no other coach can game plan like Belichek.

Dark chocolate. Milk Chocolate. White Chocolate. Yeah, I'll take all of them. I do like Ritter milk chocolate. When I was in the UK years ago I came back with probably 10lbs of Cadbury milk chocolate.

From The Losers (an underrated movie, I mean it's not high art but it's a fun popcorn flick): Jensen: Did you know that cats can make one thousand different sounds and dogs can only make ten? Cats, man. Not to be trusted.

I'd love it if Natasha's and Nick's relationship was explored in greater depth. The same goes for Maria and Nick. I don't know if we'll ever see it though. Sadly, I think Bucky was already back in cryo when Steve broke out the team. Steve still has bruises on his face in the cryu scene and none when he approaches Sam. Maybe T'Challa was helping Steve with the breakout.

I headcanon that Natasha helped Steve break the rest of the team out of the raft. They make a great team. And honestly I'd prefer if TPTB kept all romances (with the exception of Tony & Pepper) out of the MCU. There just isn't time to do it justice with the convoluted plots they're attempting.

What?