AshleyN

Regarding Tyrion, I've been rather loudly criticizing how dumb he's been written for a few seasons now, but I think in this particular case it was less a matter of actually believing Cersei would surrender than throwing up a last minute Hail Mary in hopes of avoiding a slaughter from which no one would win.

I think it's more that Jon is one of the very few people in the world that Sansa actually trusts at this point. She (understandably) views pretty much everyone as a threat and because of that hates the idea of anyone having power over her, but she knows Jon would never hurt her. Plus, she'd have a much greater ability to personally influence him than any other king or queen. And I suppose having a Northerner (and this episode went out of its way to point out that regardless of his heritage, Jon is a Northerner at heart) on the Iron Throne is the next best thing to Northern independence, since you know he'd actually care about their interests. That being said, goddamn girl, Peter Pettigrew was a better Secret Keeper than you!

I agree with these two posts, and I'd also add that Arya grew up in Winterfell and was a very active, tomboyish child. She would likely know those woods like the back of her hand. Everything we know about Arya's character explains how she has the skillset to pull this off. I don't really need the details spelled out for me.

The biggest thing I've learned from the response to this episode is how incredibly little I care about medieval battle tactics, or what the proper way to use a cavalry against a zombie army is.

I saw someone elsewhere suggest that that scene would have been creepier if they'd come alive but remained trapped in their tombs, and instead all the characters down there had been surrounded by the sounds of them struggling to get out. I think I agree actually -- I get the idea that nowhere is safe and all, but all those long dead, mostly decomposed corpses punching through solid stone just didn't really work for me.

Bran being almost completely useless in the fight against the White Walkers is so weird to me, and makes his entire arc seem pretty pointless in retrospect (which, as someone who actually really likes the fantasy elements of the series, is disappointing). I assumed he would give them something crucial in terms of how to defeat the Walkers but his contribution basically amounted to...giving Arya the dagger? And sitting there as bait. At the very least they could have had him do some powerful warging (I always wanted to see him warg a dragon). But really, I've always gotten the sense that D&D were significantly less interested in the White Walker storyline (and the North in general really) than the Kings Landing politicking and this episode, as much as I enjoyed it, doesn't really dissuade me from that.

I haven't been so stressed out watching television since "Ozymandias." The opening in particular was some of the most tense shit I've ever seen. I literally didn't get until it was pointed out to me that Beric's "purpose" was to save Arya's life lol. Everyone's complaining about how dark it was, but I didn't have any trouble seeing things? I did have the lights really dim though. Eh, I don't think she needs to be a warrior to be brave or a good leader. That being said, I mentioned after the first episode that a lot of Sansa's purported growth feels like regression to me, and I couldn't help but compare her behavior here to the Battle of the Blackwater, where she took charge of the people in the holdfast when Cersei couldn't be bothered, and found ways to use her skills as a "lady" to offer comfort and calm. It bothers me that these writers seem to equate her becoming "strong" with stripping her of her feminine qualities, many of which helped her survive up to this point.

We've seen wights that were just skeletons at least once before, but it looked horrible (Jojen's unintentionally funny death scene) so I can't say I'm eager to see it again. So yeah, I'm also not fond of the "Night King raises the dead in the crypts" idea. Not only would most of the dead (who've been down there for centuries) be either mostly or fully decomposed, but there's also the question of how exactly are they supposed to get out of those heavy-ass tombs? I don't recall anything that would indicate wights have super strength. But the bigger issue, as has been pointed out, is that it makes literally every person on Team Winterfell look like a complete idiot. Like, NOBODY would have thought to raise this issue beforehand?

My initial reaction was "Brienne is totally dead", but the more I think about it, the more I'm coming around to this idea. Everyone thinks that Jaime has to survive to confront or kill Cersei, but I don't know if that's really true. The fact that his disillusionment with her is complete and he finally broke away from her could be enough to complete that arc, he's apologized to Bran for his original sin (in the show at least) and he's now at Winterfell fighting for all of the living. Him "dying in the arms of the woman he loves," the woman who reminded him how to be a true knight, would actually be a beautiful end for the character. Whatever the case, I think one of them is biting it for sure.

Re: the Night King/White Walkers, I posted this in the other thread, but I think of them as more of a natural disaster, or the commonly cited metaphor for climate change. While I admit to being curious about how they came to exist, I've never really been interested in them having specific motives or anything because to me the story isn't about them, but about how the human characters react to them. They're a force of destruction that can't be reasoned or negotiated with, but for the most part people have been too caught up in their power games or petty personal feuds to see or respond to the threat to all humanity that they represent. It's why I'm kind of torn on how I want the next episode to go: while I like the poetic aspect of them being defeated at Winterfell, and I can see why the writers would want to return to the Game of Thrones for the end, I think the themes they represent are basically lost if they never make it further South than Winterfell and people like Cersei never have to face any consequences for ignoring them.

This is how I've always thought of the White Walkers tbh. While I admit to beeing curious about how they came to exist, I've never really been interested in them having specific motives or anything because to me the story isn't about them, but about how the human characters react to them. They're a force of destruction that can't be reasoned or negotiated with, but for the most part people are to caught up in their power games or petty personal feuds to see or respond to the threat to all humanity that they represent.

I've long thought that Sam's destiny was to write the history of this time period. The notable lack of any Stark interactions in this episode makes me think that they're safe, but that could just be wishful thinking. I like to think we'll get at least one scene with the four of them before all is said and done. I actually think all of the Starks/Lannisters/Targaryans are going to survive this one, with the possible exception of Jaime. When it comes to the secondary characters though anyone is fair game, with the most obvious death pool candidates being Theon, Grey Worm, and Brienne.

I don't think anyone has all of them*, and tbh, I'm not sure that's not the point. There's no such thing as a perfect ruler. It's better to have a mix of different views and voices. *The closest anyone came was Margaery really, but she fell victim to the classic blunder of underestimating Cersei's crazy (or, more accurately probably, of not being a main character).

Well, in this case it would be less about seeing the future (which has always seemed kind of murky to me) than seeing the present. Shouldn't he be able to see that the Night King isn't with the rest of his army, or anywhere near Winterfell? To be honest, my answer to "who will end up on the Throne?" has always been "no one," in large part due to the fact that my experience with epic fantasy is that they usually tend to deal with the end of an era/dawn of a new one in some way. It always seemed strange to me that we'd go through all of this with nothing more to show for it than a regime change. But we're in the final season now and it really doesn't feel like they've done enough to set up a major change in society like I expected so I dunno. Then my second guess was that Jon and Dany would both die with Sansa or Tyrion (or both) serving as regent for their kid, but there hasn't been any indication that Dany is pregnant either, which I thought was a gimme after they hooked up in last year's finale. So now my prediction for how the series ends is back to a solid ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

See, I've seen that speculation elsewhere, but my problem with it is that should't Bran know that? I would think basically all of his thought right now would be on what the Night King is doing, right? But I guess that's the problem with having a character who's all knowing -- this is a show built in large part on twists and surprises, but it's hard to do that now without leaving a gaping plot hole.

Just want to point out, since it's apparently "dump on Jon" day again that he's basically the only reason Westeros has a chance to survive the White Walker apocalypse. That he's the only major character in the series to consistently put the good of the realm ahead of his own desires, his own (incredibly justified) grudges, or ancient prejudices. That he pulled off the most impressive act of diplomacy in the series in convincing the Wildlings to ally with the Night's Watch, a group they've been in a constant state of conflict in for literally thousands of years. That he convinced Dany to (temporarily at least) abandon her single-minded focus on capturing the throne to come help fight for the North. That the only remotely democratic institution we've seen in this series elected him to be their leader. I get that Jon is the closest thing this show has to to a traditional hero and that he's basically the only male contender among a bunch of women, which is a turnoff for people who look to this show to break conventions. And honestly, I'm not even sure myself if he'd be the best person to rule. But the narrative that he's incompetent or useless or that he's undeserving of any of the success he's had is tiresome, and honestly, pretty lazy. The dude has flaws, obviously, but so does every single character on the series. To me, the central theme of the series is less about how one should go about ruling, than the fact that ruling is HARD and that there's no one perfect way to do it. Sure, Sansa has done a good job managing the details as Lady of Winterfell, but Jon is the one with the ability to see the big picture, while Dany has the iron will to get the job done no matter lousy the odds. All of these traits are important. I thought they had a really nice chemistry last year, and that Emilia's acting showing Dany slowly and subtly falling for Jon was the best work she's done since Season 1. I haven't really been feeling it so much this year though. Obviously this episode was always going to be awkward city, but even the waterfall excursion was rather flat to me. Maybe it's because I was kind of shocked that they'd blow past Jon being able to ride a dragon, which I thought would be a huge deal, in such a nonchalent way.

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I love this episode. The show has become so plot driven the last couple of seasons that it often feels like they've lost track of the characters, who's actions and decisions seem dictated by what the plot requires more than anything. Using the potential end of the world as an excuse to devote a full episode to just the characters -- their wants, needs, history, and relationships was simultaneously refreshing and incredibly effective at creating a sense of doom as we realize that a lot of these people are going to meet their ends next week. This one hasn't really been mentioned, but I just wanted to say that I really loved the scene with the last of the Night's Watchmen. It was a great throwback, and seeing Jon actually laughing feels like such a rare thing these days. Even with the world about to end, you can see how at home he feels with Sam and Edd. Also, this episode was the most Tyrion has felt like Tyrion in ages. Part of it is being reunited with Jaime, because Tyrion (along with Peter Dinklage) is always at his best when he's playing off of family members. But I also really liked him questioning Bran about what happened to him, a reminder of his natural curiosity and intellect (aka the traits that made him stand out in the beginning, but have been kind of forgotten about the last couple of seasons). Between that and the reminders of how dumb he's been lately, I'm hoping he'll get a chance to do something soon to remind us of why he was "the clever one" in the first place.

That was a damn near perfect episode. I suspect some people are going to call it a filler episode, or complain about not enough happening, but it accomplished exactly what it was supposed to accomplish: making me fall in love with these characters all over again and absolutely dread the carnage to come next week.

I mean, it basically does. In fact, it's exactly how the North came under Targaryan rule in the first place -- Torrhen Stark, the King who Knelt, was King in the North until he bent the knee to Aegon the Conquerer because he realized his people would be annihilated if they tried to fight.

Gotta say, I have a hard time caring about this whole "but what about the FOOD!" thing when we've spent seven seasons watching a bunch of giant armies traipsing around endlessly with it hardly ever being mentioned until it serves as a convenient plot point. Like someone said earlier, Dany's been managing to feed her giant army on Dragonstone, which can't have been easy, so I have a hard time believing that she suddenly forgot they need to eat. Also, I find the whole thing kind of amusing because IIRC correctly a decent amount of Jon's story in the last book was him making arrangements to ensure the Watch will have enough food for the winter. But that's BookJon, who was actually allowed to be smart and strategic.

I'm pretty sure it was to mirror the ending of the pilot. There were a bunch of scenes that called back to the very first episode (my favourite small detail: the music playing as Jon and Dany arrived at Winterfell was the same as Robert's arrival way back when) but that was the most obvious.

I find cryptic creeper Bran pretty hilarious, but the fact that no one has thought to get him to look up how the White Walkers were defeated last time feels like obvious stalling to me. Hell, once Sam realized what he could do I'm surprised he didn't just camp out next to him and pepper him with constant questions. It'd be faster than a book, and more accurate too.

I'm always hesitant to wade into Sansa debates, because people tend to be crazily invested in one side or the other, but this is pretty much where I am too. It's not about whether or not Sansa's issues with Dany and Jon are justified* but about the fact that she went about dealing with it in the dumbest, most unproductive way possible. And it's incredibly frustrating to me, because I want her to be the character that's being described to me -- the idea of Sansa emerging from her trials as a great player was such an exciting prospect to me -- but her entire character right now is a textbook case of telling rather than showing. You can talk about her "growth" until the cows come home, but I'm pretty sure current Sansa wouldn't have lasted five minutes in King's Landing with Joffrey. *And even that I think is undercut by the fact that she's still completely failing to grasp the magnitude of the threat posed by the White Walkers.

As others have pointed out, technically Robert did claim the throne through his lineage. The rebels basically declared that the Mad King's actions were enough to remove both him and his descendants from the line of succession, meaning Robert (whose grandmother was a Targaryan) was next in line. I'm pretty sure that's the main reason Robert was chosen as the figurehead of the rebellion in the first place, instead of Jon Arryn (who was the first to revolt) and Ned (who had the biggest beef with Aerys). But yeah, your larger point is correct, and is one of the big themes of the series really -- "Power resides with whoever men believe it resides." "Rightful" claims can be flexible and murky, and ultimately tend to come down to whoever can best defend them.