phoenics

Wish I’d seen this before responding. It’s what I was thinking and so well said. Yes you’d think him being a slave and seeing babies ripped away and family sold away would mean he’d never do that - but I can see how going from rags to riches would make him desperate to hold onto that wealth and status.

I think the whole point of this storyline with Raikes was to show Marian that Agnes was right about him. She’s been right on everything. So when Marian and Larry fall for one another, that will be a bigger conflict for Marian, who now won’t trust her own mind on Larry because she knows Agnes won’t approve?

As a former slave, maybe he just didn’t want to be relegated to the dustbins of society after escaping slavery. It’s still unforgivable what he did but maybe that was his reasoning after clawing his way to the top of the black society heap.

It’s far enough down that she’s definitively NOT the lead. I don’t think she’s the heroine either - I think it’s inertia propelling some to posit that she is - because they are used to the young white ingenue being the lead. Someone else’s comments about Peggy not being able to be that because she’s black (thanks for proving my point) simply reinforce that for me. Again - WHICH audience is Marian supposed to be the heroine for? Is it because some have decided Carrie is too old? They don’t like Bertha? None of that erases she was given top billing. She’s the lead and appears to be the heroine. I think the word people might be searching for in order to describe Marian is “stand in”. She’s an empty shell for some audience members to stand in. But not all audiences. Some might prefer to “stand in” Peggy’s shoes, race or not. Or Grace’s. As the story progresses, I suppose we will see. But that’s what my comments were about specifically - the “who’s the heroine” discussion. My point about Bruce Wayne is, there would never be a show where Bruce Wayne (as Batman) existed as lead and fans deciding Alfred was the hero over him. Or Barbara. Or Grayson. On THIS show, Carrie is lead. I find the term heroine only even came up as a way to give the Marian character more status on the show than seems warranted by her billing and subpar performance.

I finally paid enough attention to the credits and Carrie C**** (Bertha) is top billed. So she's the lead. That doesn't mean Meryl Streep's daughter can't be a heroine of the show, but from what I've seen her character isn't really much of a heroine - she's just a shell for the audience like you're saying. But - which audience? I'm also not sure I agree the core person in a show is always least interesting? That's like saying Bruce Wayne isn't interesting? Or Olivia Pope? I feel like some want Marian to be the heroine - maybe because she "looks" the part? Young, blonde, privileged but kinda rebellious woman? And maybe why some are upset that Peggy got the "strength" and "go get em" qualities some wanted in their "heroine"? What's funny is several women around Marian have these qualities in spades, but she's severely lacking. Again - which audience is she a shell for? I dunno - I don't think the show sees Marian as its heroine at all - like I just saw in the credits - Carrie C**** is the lead on this show. Meryl Streep's daughter is much further down in the credits.

In the tvguide or tvline article after the finale the showrunner says Fox said they wouldn't renew until after the finale anyway... but that they were really happy with the numbers and the streaming numbers on Hulu too. I'm hopeful.

I have no idea how this show managed to make Arman tapping his finger on a table so damn hot but there it is. Whew. Arman isn't relying upon Garrett to get him out - Hayek's lawyer is working on that. Without Arman being WITH the guns or even Hayek, Garrett has nothing on them. Hayek is trapped because his daughter dropped a dime on him. So he handed the reins to Arman. Arman decided he'd rather deal with the devil he knew (Hayek) than the devil he knew would screw him and leave him with nothing (Garrett). His whole plan was to get arrested, have Hayek's daughter turn on him and force Hayek's hand in turning everything over to him (Arman). He even saved Hayek's life. Arman's plan worked. Garrett was really Arman's pawn, not the other way around. Garrett will still be trying to bring Arman down though. But that's S2 if we get one. I was expecting either Arman or Hayek to get shanked and to be left wondering if one of them died. I wasn't surprised about Marco - that's been telegraphed a few episodes. I can kinda see Marco's pov - especially with how he felt being left in Manilla. What I am irritated about with Marco is that he cared more about his role in saving Luca than Luca being saved. If left up to him, Luca would already be dead because of his ego. I think S2 will have Marco using Luca to bribe Thony back to him. That scene of Thony giving Nadia her allowance - girl - go buy yourself something to cry in, lmao. I just could NOT be Nadia, lol. I would have snapped and killed Thony. First she's got my husband's head all turnt and now she's handing me an allowance? LMAO. Murder. Thony and Fiona operating as a money laundering service - interesting. And Thony opening a clinic - that's gonna be interesting... she'll be in the morally gray zone immediately I'm sure... and sink slower into the darkness of that. I love this show. I love how it's showing Hayek's motives of trying to freedom fight for his homeland, so he sells guns to make money to send for the effort. I love Arman feeling trapped in a life he got into to escape the helplessness he felt as a kid. I love seeing Thony and her struggle to stay "good" while being in "illegal" situations. I even like seeing Garrett cross every line because for him, he needs the win and the ends justify the means (to him). I can't wait for S2. Please renew this show Fox!

I find Turner's motivations completely realistic if not deplorable. She sees herself and Bertha as equals - the same. So to her - why couldn't it have been HER who married well and was now stinking rich? She wants to be her and is insanely jealous of her. She puts her down and disses her behind her back because she wants what Bertha has. Now that she's been put out of the house - she'll try to take her down now out of revenge. It's all very petty jealousy driving her.

I LOVE this show too - can I come hang with y'all? SUCH a good episode. Bannister's shocked "aaaaahhh! sh!t" expression when Agnes showed up was SO funny! And I LOVE the decadence of the show - the gifts Bertha had made for the guests - drooling! That was just the perfect little touch for her Czarina aspiring self. Loved it. Were those cigar cases for the men? Can you imagine how much that must have cost? Loved it. Loved the flowers and candles (kept worrying the flowers would catch on fire)... loved the decor. Loved the linens. Loved the gowns. Loved Agnes dragging her skirt in the dirt and nearly getting run over lmao. Classic. Marian continues to be dumb AF. Can they just recast her?

Hmmmm.... this might be similar to OITNB where the "heroine" isn't really the character people follow the show for - the other characters are far more interesting?

It is totally understandable that the upper crust of NY (the old money and new money) would actually take Agnes' view toward Peggy. Many HBCUs - including my Alma Mater, Spelman - were heavily funded by these wealthy families - Spelman was named for John D. Rockefeller's wife. This is one aspect of history the show has gotten 10000% right. But again - Peggy is seen by Agnes as more of a "pet" she's helping than a "threat". If Peggy were to fall in love with Oscar, Agnes would turn on her in a heartbeat.

I guess I just don't see Marian as the heroine? Is she the lead - I haven't really looked at the billing. So far, Bertha Russell feels more like a heroine to me. Marian is just there to provoke the old guard and risk her tenuous position, lol.

I think it's because of whatever caused her and her father to become estranged. We've seen speculation that it's a baby he made her give away or a marriage he forced her into? Whatever it is, Raikes appears to be helping her with it. I'm concerned about what's going to happen with Raikes and Peggy's secret once Marian finally figures out he's no good? I can see him turning on both of them.

She's still right about him. I don't know what she means about him being an "adventurer" but she's right that he's trying to use Marian to climb the social ladder and improve his social - thus by extension his business - standing. He's shady. I'm calling it now. I don't trust him. But Larry feels dull too. And Marian is just ... not well cast at all. Peggy is awesome - I remember the actress from UnREAL - she's killing it here. I think someone else mentioned they felt Peggy "stole" character traits they believed would have made Marian more interesting but I find Peggy's goal orientedness, spark and gumption make a lot more sense given that she HAD to have goals being an African American woman of the times. In fact, Marian is failing as a character precisely because her "disruptor" attitude clashes so harshly with her actual circumstance. Peggy is pursuing goals within the confines of her social status - while Marian appears ready to just break things for the sake of breaking them - she has zero concept of what it means to take care of herself - she's been rescued her entire life. She's playing with fire because she's never known consequences. She's SO realistic to me and reminds me of SO many privileged women I know. Peggy reminds me of me - a go getter because she HAS to be. Anyway Agnes is right about Raikes. But I still don't really like her very much. I don't like the old money people much at all. I think it's because none of them earned it. The money is aristocratic money handed down. The Russells and other new money families like the Rockefellers earned it. The Rockefellers actually funded my alma mater so there's that. Plus in society today - those families (the Vanderbilts, Rockefellers, Carnegies, Morgans, etc) are the big names. They've outlived the old money families none of us have ever heard of unless we specifically went looking. I just find the old money snobbishness to be based in fear and insecurity - because even the old money knows their time on top of the heap is ending. Why shouldn't I choose the Russells? Big Daddy Russell shutting down that bazaar after the ladies stupidly crossed his wife was DELICIOUS to me - mostly because it proved the old money families couldn't just push the new money folks around with no consequences. And then he did it again with the aldermen - who deserved it. He didn't make that man kill himself - and honestly I was happy to see Mrs Morris brought down after she was such a snobby and stuck up b!tch to Bertha Russell. The old money women have been rude to Bertha's face - who has NEVER been rude first to any of them. Not one. NEVER happened. She has only ever retaliated when attacked. The old money ladies sit and preen as though they are on top of the heap because - what - God willed it so? Nah - I refuse to buy into that. Some say Bertha needs to show why she deserves to be included in society - as though the old money women have shown why they deserve to be? Seriously? It's class based - not "how good you are" based. So when Marian sits with the old money ladies and translates their snobby actions back to them in real time - I cackle. They try to snub as though somehow they are the arbiters of all that is right and good when they are nothing and are quickly approaching the END of their era. I'm so happy to see it unfold. This story is the opposite of Downton Abbey. Rather than being focused on the family trying to hold onto their fading aristocracy, this story is about the emergence of new money taking over and relegating the old money to the dustbins of history. The ONLY old family left today are the Astors. Thassit. The rest are new money families (Rockefellers, Vanderbilts, Morgans, Goldman, Sachs). I'm looking forward to seeing the old families decline one by one and Agnes needing to be carried out on a stretcher with smelling salts eventually as all of the "norms" she holds dear are stripped away. Sure - eventually I'm sure the new money families will be destroyed too (or at least severely diminished) - so many new money families were in the stock market crash back then - but I really think this story is more about the old money families being stripped away and replaced by the new. Long live the Russells, Vanderbilts, Rockefellers, Morgans, etc. God I love this show. I agree - she's angling for her to pull an Astor or a Vanderbilt and marry royalty. It probably won't happen, but it will be fun to see all the royal pomp and circumstance when it comes to the show eventually.

Then that means Hayek sent the body AFTER he saw Arman was alive? As a "you are not forgiven and your days are numbered" message.

I think it was more about the lawyer clearly ghosting Fiona after she paid him a massive retainer. It doesn't appear he did anything to even start their case and we also know that he did not respond when Chris called him when Fiona was in ICE. Clearly this lawyer wasn't going to help them - he was just gonna take her money and do nothing. Also - any lawyer would have billable hours and actual filing costs separate. So you'd see the $400 for a filing fee but the time of the lawyer would come in billable hours. They aren't - or should not be - lumped together. So Chris was right. What parole?

I don't think Hayek left Carlos there to frame or blackmail Arman - he left the corpse there as a message.

Well that was intense! Nothing happened in this episode that went how I thought it would go, so kudos to the writers for that. Apparently the showrunner penned this episode. In hindsight when Thony realized her time was running out with the border agent, she should have gone through with Luca first and then Dara would’ve been fine either way. But I can see why Thony just cared about getting Luca across first and herself last. Also - gov shift changes don’t happen that fast ever. They would’ve let him finish processing Thony before switching. That was dumb and done for drama to keep us on the edge. It worked, lmao. Arman hallucinating Thony when Nadia was pulling him away from the fire. Whew - this is meeeeesssssyyyyyyy. Arman confronting Hayek was a shock - I didn’t think he’d do that at all. But I think it’s clear he’s setting Hayek up to take the fall for the sale. Just don’t know how he’s gonna get him there. But good on him removing the target on his back at least temporarily due to the 6 million dollar sale. Way to go Chris standing up to Marco and figuring out the lawyer was a sheister. I worry Marco is going to take Luca back to the Philippines with him. He seems like he’d do that and Thony wouldn’t be able to stop him behind bars. Oh Garrett. Being poor doesn’t remove your white cis male privilege. Thony’s situation isn’t even close to the same. And it’s rich to have him lecturing her about good/bad when he’s done nothing but break the rules since day one. I suspect he’s headed for unemployment. I hope these charges are just a facade to get Thony back in the US to be a witness against Arman? Question is - did Hayek deliver Carlos’ body to the house before or after Arman visited the club? I suppose it doesn’t matter. Arman looked hot AF waking up from almost being murdered a week later lmao. Damn. Next week looks like it’s gonna be crazy.

Good point - of course that's right. The other fan theory is that Will is Phil's son - I really hope not. This would have made SO much more sense!

They've been talking about this fundraiser for the last 2 episodes but maybe it was too subtle? But rich folks creating a fund or nonprofit from a loved one's death is standard rich folks stuff (lol) so I didn't find it surprising or weird that this happened. Lisa talked a lot about how important it was to her because of her mom - but maybe they didn't connect it enough to lupus in previous episodes. But in this one they did state it was for a Lupus fundraiser, so. I HAAAAATTTTEEEEEE Lisa's step mom - first she's a homewrecker who was with Lisa's dad before Lisa's mom died and worse she really WAS trying to make the event about HER. Even that moment when she exclaimed over the baby kicking seemed fake - I don't believe the baby kicked at all - she was just mad the conversation turned to Howard and the sorority Lisa's mom, Viv and her artist friend were all in and the convo wasn't about her. You can tell she's salty because she gives them all a weird look right before her fake little "Ah!". I just hope that when the fit hits the shan and they find out that Phil pulled strings to get Will out and it threatens his race, news that Lisa's dad cheated on his sick wife with Angela leaks and black folks (who will already be salty about a black chief of police running) turn out in droves to vote for Uncle Phil and he wins. Anything to stick it to Lisa's dad and Angela. Jerks. I was cheering when Aunt Viv went off on Angela - and did yall see Aunt Viv's artist friend in the background taking off her earrings to get ready to fight? lmao. Aunt Viv please run from Michael Ealy - he's up to no good. Run. Ruuuuuuuunnnn!!

I don't think they put his interests on the backburner because it wasn't traditionally black - it was because the basketball game got close and wildly entertaining and they just got distracted by it. I'm sure Carlton took it that way and his feeling hurt by that was valid. But - hell - I cheered all through middle, high school and college and my parents never saw one game. I didn't even realize this until I was much older and well out of my parent's house. BUT Carlton clearly needs that kind of rapt "all about him" attention from his parents and he was hurt when he didn't get it. Okay. My issue with Carlton is that if he's not the center of attention, he blows up. That's not about black vs white - that's Carlton being massively entitled and never learning how to share the spotlight. He's incredibly selfish - even in the latest episode that hasn't changed - all he cared about was using Lisa's mother's event to cozy up to her - constantly NiceGuyTMing her to try to get back with her. Her reaction to that was so human and RIGHT because he's been doing that to her the entire show. Will was 100% correct to point out to him that him trying to help Lisa feel better purely as a friend (even with Carlton's blackmail hanging over him) should have been cheered by Carlton if he really cared about Lisa vs just wanting to "win" her. But after his breakdown - I really hope he takes stock of his life and his own choices. Part of what upsets him really is that he has bought into respectability politics whole heartedly in order to assimilate and fit in (maybe because when he let himself be himself and imperfect he was ostracized), but Will has not but Will is becoming a star at his school and with others around him. That's hard - but that's on Carlton to fix. I see a lot of Blair Waldorf in Carlton. She too blamed Serena for existing and shining effortlessly and was mad she couldn't do the same (even before Serena's mistakes and the mess with Nate, Blair was jealous of her innate star power). She had to earn her stripes a different way. Carlton needs to do the same thing - find who he really is inside and live that life authentically, letting the chips fall where they may. He'll be a much happier and better person for it. Actually I think Aunt Viv might actually be Will's mom. It's just a feeling - but I hope that doesn't happen actually. I really did love seeing Will comforting and covering for Carlton, but he does need help and I hope Will pushes him to get it.

I don’t agree with this. Thony has gotten lucky a few times but in others she has messed up - going to Theo’s funeral was a HUGE mistake. She fumbled and lost her necklace getting the laptop. But beyond that - the only time she’s done something outside of her skill set was that transplant. She got lucky with LDP and converting him into a friend. Otherwise she’s been pretty normal. Even the tracheotomy was in line with her skills. I can’t call her a Mary Sue. There are better examples out there.

Agreed. Thony hasn’t been shown as a Mary Sue in any other instance except that surgery. She’s actually made quite a few blunders - going to Theo’s funeral was a major one.

This show is totally beautiful. The gowns the parties. I hope there IS a party every episode lol. Leah’s dress was FIRE. Taylor’s suit was so perfect - the blazer was giving Balmain. Lauren’s room was pretty but so huge it was hard to get a sense of place - and Leah’s room feels like an office and closet kinda in one. Unless she runs a fashion division that feels weird? She has enough money to have a separate office area and closet space? Why does she need a cloffice? I mean don’t get me wrong - I like it and wish I had room for that but it’s weird how Angela just walks right into such an intimate space repeatedly. Wouldn’t staff at the door have her seated in a sitting room or parlor while they go get Leah? Poor Nikki - what a perfect night and then wham! New dad! Jeez this show. I wish this show could pace itself but I guess this is what it is. I really like Jermaine’s mom - cutthroat like Teddy. I can’t remember if it was this ep or last where she gave that history lesson of the shooting range and their ownership of it. I hope they keep dropping tidbits like that throughout. This show makes me sad MV isn’t as black as it used to be. Although I still know a few black families who own some of the tiny Victorian houses in Oak Bluffs, it has definitely seen a dramatic drop in black ownership over the years. I guess I get why Leah was so upset at her dad’s speech - he could’ve thrown her some shine too - but the dramatic tantrum on the dance floor - again - I’m supposed to believe this woman is 2nd in command at a global conglomerate? Yaya’s hair is incredible. I’m interested in the back story with Jermaine’s ex wife, him and Leah but I wish Leah would start acting more her age and level? She overreacts emotionally to everything and often causes her own drama. Some of her beef feels high school? The writers need to do better with her pov. And I like it when she and Angela are playing on the same team. But at least the show is really improving, even if it keeps throwing too many plot twists. I think I’m gonna have to read the book.

Spelman doesn’t do legacy admission. If your parent teaches at Spelman you can attend for free but you still have to earn your spot. I am enjoying this show more now. The characters are getting to breathe more and the storyline beats are landing better. Glad I stuck with it.