ILoveReading

Isn't that a pic from the ep The Future? I'm thinking Sam's impossible choice will be to say yes to Lucifer to prevent him from possessing Nick again.

http://www.ksitetv.com/supernatural/supernatural-spoilers-damaged-goods-description/189241/nggallery/image/sn1411b_0026b/ In the continuing tradition of Dabb's SamNatural not a single photo of Dean.

This basically sums up the season. They're talking about Michael but its a picture of Chief.

I wouldn't even call it a half measure. There was no build up to Dean saying yes, one literal 10 second scene of Michael vs Dean, and then it was ignored until they needed it again for a cliff hanger. Id call it a 1/10 measure, but even that is a stretch.

Picture from a guest star. This is supposed to be the episode that Dean is in a bad spot/place physically. Dean looks relatively unscathed there. I really hope its not just another Dean kills himself to talk to someone that's dead scenario. This is also the episode where Dean has the big heart to heart with Cas. I hope it Cas resassuring Dean how much he's love and needed, because I find that relationship so one sided lately.

I'm not taking the bait either. I'll watch the five minutes we get of Michael on you tube. I'm wondering why they released so many synopsis so close together. I dont' ever remember getting so many so close together before. It's almost like they want to kill any excitement for the Michael story. They did this at the start of the season too. After ep two there was an article that said Dean wasn't secretly possessed and that there would be little follow up to his trauma. Now they release the following two episodes after this one making sure that we know nothing is really about Michael or Dean's trauma. *This is not meant as bitch/jerk. I'm refering to how they're treating the Michael storyline overall, not specifically to Dean or Jensen.

Because all the writers have their pet projects and there is no one to lead them or take charge. BRL- only want to write Nick/Lucifer Dabb- LeaderSue and his merry band of red shirts/Jack Berens- Wayward Sues It's more than obvious the Michael storyline in an afterthought for all the writers. It translates into what we see on screen. An incoherent mess. Dabb sucks

I hope so but if Sam said yes to Michael he may be dormant, or if he's sucking demon blood than that could still be in play. Or maybe this new version of Sam is prophet Sam. He's been everything else, why not that too.

I'm not sure if he was on set this week at all. There was a picture of the tape ball, and it had blue tape on it, but I don't know if it was from that current day. There was videos from Misha and Jared going from actor to character by getting rid of the beard but nothing from Jensen. Misha posted this yesterday. It's Cas, Jack and the guy in plaid looks like he might be Jared's stand in. But no sign of Jensen.

And then processed to tell him he wasn't a person. I came to dread any of those "heart to heart" talks. It was just basically another suck it up lecture. Then he told Sam to stop worrying about Dean and live his own life. Not exactly supportive, IMO. Just saying words doesn't mean much if you don't back it up. It was hard for Sam to really give Dean much support since he had his own issues. Sam's issues always take priortity on this show. After Bobby's lecture, Dean's issues pretty much just disappeared with no real resolution. It was just another dropped plot point in a long line of dropped plot points. Dean's need for revenge on Dick Roman was dropped the minute Bobby came back into the picture. That was suddenly his story. Sam did continue to lie to Dean. When Dean thought it was Bobby, Sam said he did the tests. Why didn't he tell Dean? Sam also ended up blaming Dean for resouling him. (Born Again Identity) We'll have to agree to disagree that the brothers trauma was treated equally. Dean certainly go no resolution or release. I saw a lot of Dean putting aside his trauma once again for Sam. Considering there were no negative consequences for Sam I'd have to disagree. The text message was added to make Dean look bad, and Sam got his way. He left Benny for no other reason than Sam having a temper tantrum. With the Amy situation there was 4 episodes of follow up where it was hammered that Dean was a dick for lying to Sam. Sam even stalked off. Dean didn't chase him and the show didn't drag Sam back and have another character say "We need Sam." Which is what happened to Dean when he tried to walk away from Sam. No one told Sam he ruined Dean's life and cost him a friend. The text message was brought up in subsequent episodes, Sam's behavior was not. Not once, not even by Dean. In he got rewarded for it. Sam chose to stay and work the case. If Sam can call Dean out during fallen idols, because his attitude was jeopardizing the case then it seems to me that is fair also for Sam. Because he was acting like a bitch. Not going to lie. I cheered when Dean said that to Sam. It was nice to hear him finally get the boo hoo lecture for once. I disagree that there was no bad effect. Dean ended up dying and he attacked Gadreel and ended up locked in the panic room. It was changing his personality. Abbaddon was never really presented as that much of a threat. As for Sam drinking demon blood. Again don't agree Sam faced consequences. Demon blood was ultimately responsible for saving the world because Sam had to drink it to house Lucifer. Not to mention Sam announcing that he went to Ruby to get away from Dean. I personally think s5 whitewashed Sam especially when the burden of proof on trust was on Dean. Sam expected Dean to trust him immediately. Sam was completely whitewashed in s5. Not to mention the show completely rewriting history when Sam told Dean that everything worked out great with powers when they were aruging over Jack. So show thinks Dean was wrong for not being supportive enough of Sam during that time. I don't care how long it was for. It was the fact that the show went there in the first place. Taking on the mark (which Sam decided to do behind Dean's back), was shown to be Sam sarificing himself. Dean taking on the mark was never treated as heroic in the show. It was done because Dean was weak and thought he was going to die anyway. It was a moment of weakness. I'm mostly talking about after the fight with Cain. Before ep 13, I'd agree that Sam was right to have reservations because Dean was getting worse, but after ep 14 and the focus shifted more to what Sam was doing, they forgot to actually write the mark affecting Dean. Sam and Cas were showing the same level of violence Dean was. Nothing after episode 14 really showed Dean 'getting worse" He couldn't' go with Sam and Cas becasue "he snapped" then they show us Dean playing miniature golf. The tell didnt' match the show, so Sam's proclamations that Dean was getting worse didn't fit. Sam wasn't seeing Dean, he was judging him based on things that weren't happening. I can admit it was a writer fail but it made it look like Sam had no faith in Dean. Also Sam said, Dean's giving up, Dean's quitting. He wasn't. He was fighting. He just wasn't doing it the way Sam thought he should. That's the problem with Sam. He thinks Dean should deal with things his way, and if he doesn't Sam keeps pushing or thinks Dean has given up. We will have to agree to disagree. *I'm not saying that Sam has never shown Dean's genuine support just that I find Dean getting support from anyone, including Sam to be increasingly few and far between since the back half of season 4. Again, not a coincidence, IMO, that this would have been the time Kim Manners started getting sick.

IMO, the only real champion Dean ever had on this show was Kim Manners. He's the one that saw the potential of Dean as a character outside of Sam. Jensen had a champion with Kripke because I do beleive he genuinely likes and admires his talent, but he never saw Dean as a character in his own right. I don't think a coincidence that after Kim died, Dean was relegated back tot he sidelines for the majority of season 5, since Kripke admitted Sam was his avatar. Sera outright said she preferred Sam. Edlund liked Dean well enough, but he could only do so much. At least Carver tried but even those stories ultimately ended up revolving around Sam and were handed off to him. But unlike Dean who took the mark in a moment of weakness, Sam, of course, was given an opportunity to to it heroically.

I've found since 4B Dean's feelings, traumas and emotions have been treated as wrong with increasing frequency. He was wrong to be upset with Sam chosing a demon over him, considering how many people defend Bobby in that scene over Dean. In season 5 he was wrong to be upset with Sam's season 4 behavior and had to apologize multiple times for being upset and prove to Sam that he did, in fact, trust him. In s6 he was wrong for being upset that no one told him Sam was back. Bobby certainly didn't care that he hurt Dean. He was wrong s7 for being depressed. That was dropped so Dean could be wrong about Amy*. An episode that was designed to completely throw Dean under the bus, that Jensen was also made to direct. Then it was just dropped because Sam's emotions, trauma, and feelings always take priority. Season 8 he was wrong to be be upset over being left to rot. Season 9 and 10, he really had no one in his corner. "Dean's getting worse." "Dean's quiting" "Dean's giving up". It would be nice if his family had some faith in him. Season 11- They made him say he was too weak to deal with Amara (ignoring the two times he bested her). No one said anything to contradict this belief. Even Sam's fancy words in Lover Hurts, were just fancy words because when everyone was piling on Dean, no one defended him. Season 12, he was wrong to be upset about Mary going behind their back to work with the men of letters and had to apologize. He wasn't allowed to be upset over Sam manipulating him. All his traumas were downplayed because they just had to emphasize Sam's and have Dean say he failed. Then juxtapose that with scenes of a grown up Sam leading a successful mission against Brits. Season 13 He was wrong to be suspicious of Satan's spawn. Those early episodes were clearly written to make sure they showcased Dean as a bully. S14- Sam's beard got more attention than Deans' post possession trauma. This is not counting all the times Deans' trauma, emotions, and feelings were mocked, downplayed, or just outright ignored. I don't think the writers feel like Dean has suffered at all at any point over the course of the series. We probably won't get any since Buck Lemming literally think he is immune. And his only motivation for doing anything is Sam. He hasn't even really had Cas in his corner since Jack came along. This to me is why Dean will always be the stronger brother, both mentally and physically. He's never really had anyone in his corner. He's an island unto himself. *Sam might have said Dean was right about Amy, but at that point the damage was done to Dean's character and Sam also threw her back in Deans' face twice indicating he didn't really believe that.

I don't agree with this at all. Sam might have come to forgive Gadreel but he never forgave Dean, and I think he still hasn't. Sam got lots of sympathetic treatment as aw poor Sammy while Dean was called all kinds of nasty names. Sam was given a chance to apologize to Kevin (who did not accuse Sam of having a pity party) and it was never really mentioned again after that. It was never a big thing beyond that first episode.

Agree, and with Carver I don't think he ever intended for Sam to look bad. All the pre-series press was about how mature Sam was and how much he had grown and how Dean was just being mean. The writing in the early episodes back up Sam too,especially Southern Comfort. When Dabb saw that the whole Amelia thing went over like a lead balloon he dropped it as fast a she could. I understand it was supposed to be Amelia that Crowley killed not Sarah. Then he gave Sam the trials to make up for it. Sam even got a big scene to unburden years of upset that Dean had other people in his life and that that hurt Sam's feelings and Dean had to grovel. Dean never got a scene like that. The closest was Mary and even that put more emphasis on Sam's trauma. It seemed like it had the opposite effect too. Mary now notices Sam is the best leader ever and Dean who? In season 9, Carver gave Sam a storyline that Jared called a wet dream and said if fans didn't like it, it was on him. Like, love or hate that story at least they gave Jared and opportunity to play Gadreel and it wasn't dropped five minutes after it started. IMO, there was plenty of follow up and Sam was allowed to be angry. Even in season 9 when Dean had the mark, Sam didn't just make soup and beg Dean to take care of him. He was given a proactive story, with the book of the damned and he got to be the one to offer to sacrifice himself again. Sam even got another chance to confront Lucifer in s11 and tell him to go f--- himself. That was shown, on screen with a trip down memory lane. Not a 10 second blink and you'll miss it. I think everything Dabb is doing is deliberate. He has no use for Dean and only writes for him to throw a bone to the Dean fans so they won't leave. He continues to take from Dean without giving him anything in return. If they wanted to give Sam the leader ship role, than they could have given Dean a mentor/trainer type role. But nope, Sam gets it all. He's the leader, researcher, teacher, trainer, and mentor and weapons expert. There is no aspect that Dabb hasnt' handed off to Sam. Agree. There will be no trials storyline for Dean, or any heroic world saving. The show won't even acknowledge that Lucifer needed to be stopped. I'm sure they're going to bring him back at some point. This is not a spoiler, its pure speculation based the shows obsession with him. Honestly, I wish Dabb would treat Dean just as badly as Carver treated Sam.

It didn't help that the tiny little bit of Michael we got was cut. I heard an audio recording of Michael confronting the Holy Man. The most important part of his speech was cut out where Michael talks about peace and love is only what humans say they want.

Michael has been gone a long time, and since there was no one there to stomp his foot and yell boo, mostly likely someone else took over. Once they see how weak Michael actually is there is logical reason for them to follow him. Basically this season is a complete mess with no ones motivations or actions making sense. Sadly, I have to agree with the person who said the only storyline that does is Nick's.

IMO, since Dabb has taken over, Dean has basically regressed to where he was in the pilot. He's back to the blunt instrument who just does what he's told. Except now his commanding officer is Supreme Leader Chief rather than John. In fact its even worse because at least Dean had little ways of rebelling against John. The brothers not being at odds basically gave Sam want he's wanted since Ruby. Someone who doesn't question or disagree with him, just follows orders. Dean's only three responses are yes, no and how high. If he does got against the supreme leader he apologizes for it and looks for absolution and approval. Sam's far more of a dictator than Dean could ever hope to be. This is why I care about wanting Dean to be acknowledged as a leader. It was just an important part of his journey. Growing out of John's shadow to be a leader in his own right. Hunters used to call him (Id be okay if this was shown to be both) but now its all Sam, Sam Sam and Sam again. If there a task we see Sam assigning it. There is no reason Dean can't ask no name red shirt to do something for him without checking in with Chief first. If that takes away Sam's leadership they aren't really selling it in the first place. These writers have an all or nothing approach, so by elevating Sam, the brothers aren't' equal. Sam's in charge. As I've said before, I never felt like Dean treated Sam as a flunkie with regards to hunting. He saw him as an equal partner and its not like Sam ever really listened to Dean when it came to the big things. Dean as a bossy, over controlling, mean bully was far more tell than show. I can't think of many times when Sam didn't do exactly what he wanted regardless of what Dean said and did. So IMO, making Sam a leader was completely necessary because the character really didn't' need it. He's already had multiple story lines where he got the opportunity to step out of Dean's shadow. Plus he was the focal character from the pilot. He was the chosen one, the one who got the classic Campbellian hero journey, who everyone dotes on and talked about and worried about and fused over. He already had to many other traits and qualities that the had no problem pointing out every chance they got. Adding leader just seemed to be another thing to take from Dean. Something Dabb started in s11 and continues. Even Dean's trauma about being possessed was showed to be more of a burden on Sam. He didn't have time to even shave, only neatly trim and groom that grief beard while taking care of every other task in the bunker and poor baby bird only sleeps two hours a night. Dean hangs out in his room and eats pizza. While Dean, gets shown to be a dick and bully, despite the fact that Kaia bragged about wanting to kill Clarire. Dean's still the bad guy and there are million and one excuses why it's okay to let that kind of writing stand because Dean doesn't need to be defended. But Sam makes a mistake, gets called out on it, but Bobby is the bad guy for pointing it out Everybody jumps to his defense. Dean saved Maggie but of course, Sam gets credit. If Dean ever got a major permanent injury, he'd get told to suck it up while everyone fussed and fawned over Sam to make sure he was holding up okay under this new burden. This might be more unpopular opinion but I never felt like Sam was in Dean's shadow, it was far more that Jared was in Jensen's. Dean often came across as dominate because Jensen played him that way more than was scripted. (Season 4, and 9 being the exceptions but even those ended up revolving around Sam). It's Dean who needs to step out of Sam's shadow and discover who he is outside of a brother and a caretaker. They started this with purgatory but it was dropped because, what a shock, Sam needed to be taken care of during the trials. Dean becoming a General in the hunting community would have been a more more logical progression for him than Sam. Teaching and mentoring new hunters is something he's good at. See- Freaks and Geeks. Even Jared said Sam's not a leader, he prefers to be that guy in the back. Sam's skill set was more becoming someone like Bobby. There is nothing wrong with that. There was room for both in this story. That is why Dean being a leader and having it acknowledged is important to me. That's why it bothered me when Sam suddenly announced "follow me'". There is no purpose for Dean anymore. Sam doesn't need an caretaker anymore. The only reason Dean isn't just another no-name Red shirt in Chief's army is because Jensen has screen presence. The writing of him is even worse than it was in 12B. I'd say the kindest thing Dabb could do for Dean would be to kill him off, but knowing Dabb, Dean would probably trip over a shoelace, and fall down the stars and break his neck. TL/DR The show making Sam a leader took everything away from Dean because it was the last role he had on this show.

Don't forget to add bully to that list.

I must have missed those episodes that showed his ambition. He's apparently been twiddling this thumbs this whole time. I see zero ambition. His big plan to crush Dean literally went unnoticed by everyone. Including, Dean himself since Michael's seemed to have zero impression on him. He didn't even acknowledge or seemed concerned about the wonky vision of the Djinn's reactions. It was "Michael who" since Dean realized he was being a dick for being traumatized by the possession and apologized for it. I'm not even sure what Michael's real plan is. Does he want slaves or an empty plantet with only his monster army. I doubt the writers Michael even knows (or cares). Why would he want to retrieve angels? He can't even bend lowly humans to his will. His monsters are kind of pathetic, so why at this point would any angel want to obey Michael?

Wayward Sue can take him out literally without getting hair in her eyes, there is no logical reason why he should leave someone so dangerous to him alive. Why would he want to go to other dimensions when he has big plans to mold this one in his image. Not to mention he's getting his ass handed to him so easily, he's become a joke and is so weak that his monsters can't even take untrained red shirt no-name hunters. If he can't take Earth he probably wouldn't stand a chance anywhere else either.

I'd put money on both. I'm sure that Nick finds the secret he's looking for is being possessed by Lucifer again. In the cast/crew photo Mark P is wearing Lucifer's leather jacket. In order to stop Michael and Lucifer, Im guessing Sam will have start downing the blood slurpees again, and they'll probably bring back cage Michael, and start next season with Michael Sam.

I think this is exactly where the season is headed with Sam and his red-shirts battling Lucifer and Michael and Sam getting to take out both. Dean gazing adoringly from the sidelines because if he enters the battle, Michael might possess him again. Its a convenient way to leave Dean and Jensen out of the action. Which is what Dabb wants. No one will ever convince me he doesn't hate the character of Dean and is doing his best to strip away Dean's legacy.

Jared has been desperately wanting Sam's powers back. I bet the unimaginable choice is to start drinking demon blood again. Then he can feel massively guilty and then that would make episode 13 a perfect set up for this is your life Sam Winchester, to whitewash justify Sam's decision.

yes please

They didnt' even have to go there in the first place. They could have focused the ep on what Sam was doing to find Dean. I would have prefered they cut out the ridculous demon stuff and show us more Michael Dean. The AU hunters weren't even living in the bunker at the end of last season and Bobby was the leader. Why would they follow Sam when Bobby and Mary where right there. Bobby still saw himself as their leader at that point. I dont' buy "from AU world." He knew about Trump and the Apprentice. Their worlds aren't that different. Plus, Mary was from out world and she was going to abandon her sons for these people. They could have folded Dean in, and showed him training some of the younger members, or taking over the field and leading them on hunts while Sam did the organization and logistics. There was room for both. It didn't have to be all or nothing. Dean's issues were dropped pretty much the minute he walked thorugh the door. He has antibodies against trauma. An actual quote from buck lemming. He was in his room because he was uncomfortable with the AU hunters invading his home. After that ep they could have showed him attempting to get to know some of them. As it is they come across as red shirts hired just to give Sam the appearance of being in the lead. It did because from that moment on, Dean's leadership abilities were pushed the side and treated as non existent and the show acted like he never had them and never was a leader. He was just bossy and holding poor little Sammy back from his rightful place. But Sam didn't know this when he made his big speech. Which he was preaching to a choir. In a well written show they should have asked why they should follow the person who was dumb enough to take up with them in the first place. No one else did. Why didn't Sam say follow us since at that point he believed Dean was going on the raid with them. Sam declarded himself in charge from that moment on. Again, if Dean attempts to lead from this moment its just going to be another round of Dean being accused of treating Sam like a baby/not trusting him. I wouldn't have such an issue if the show would acknowledge Dean was a damn good leader. It didn't. Dean is bossy, and he was never a leader, is what the show is trying to sell. Co-leaders would have been okay. This all or nothing approach is what bothers me. So in my opinion this was very much a quality of Dean's that was taken from him, gift wrapped and handed to Sam on a silver platter. This is not meant as snark. What is Dean's role now in the bunker? (emotional support doesn't count, because that's not a role).