ILoveReading

It's not so much Dean's actions as the message I felt that episode sent. I disliked it intensely. Whether Dean truly wanted to die or not, is beside the point because the show romanticized Dean trying to throw his life away by making Romeo and Juliet comparisons. It's a hot button issue for me, so just......no. When Dean sold his soul, the show treated it as a product of Dean's twisted pysche, and not some gesture of brotherly love. It also sends a message that Dean still feels his live is worth less than Sam. I don't see anything good about that.

Doesn't this also apply to Sam as well? Sam used Lester and certainly didn't care that it cost him his life/ soul because he was desperate to talk to a demon. Charlie got caught in the crossfire in Sam's attempt to remove the Mark. Despite saying he was sorry he didn't let it go, so how sorry was he really? Here is why Sam said to Dean in the Prisoner Sam is admitting he's doing this, because he doesn't want to be alone and Dean was all he had. The exact same reason Sam raked Dean over the coals for, being selfish and not wanting to be alone. Why is it brotherly love for Sam, but selfish for Dean? Then there was Oscar who Sam didn't care was a human sacrifice. I honestly don't remember if Sam knew about Oscar but I doubt he would have cared or told them to shut it down because of this.... Here is death telling Sam that if the mark is removed it will release the darkness. Sam had time to make a phone call and shut down the spell. He willingly and knowingly started an apocalypse to meet the needs of Sam. As for Sam's fancy speech in ep 11, we know that since this is a tv show, and unless Jensen or Jared decides not to renew their contract or the show ends, they if one brother is in peril the other will do something to bring them back. IMO, Sam's words mean nothing because we know they arent' true. The problem is that the show is so wishy-washy on whether its okay to do this. Because we have that horrid Red Meat where the show actually glamorized suicide in the name of the brotherly bond. It needs to pick a side and stick to it. because if they say its okay for one brother, then it needs to be okay for both. *I'm not saying I agree with what Dean did, I don't, my problem here is more with the writers and the inconsistency.

I still think they missed a golden opportunity to show Mary's return journey to Lawrence. I always said I prefer quality over quantity. So I wouldn't have minded in the episode was Sam and Dean light. (With JA and JP's limited schedule, it could have freed up some time). Or show her reading the journal and seeing a flashback ep to early days after Mary died. They could have cast young Dean and Sam.

Sam actually said this. Sam even gave himself full credit for rescuing Bobby from hell. IMO, we are in Sam's head to even though it looks like Bobby, its really Sam's thoughts. Sam even confirmed that earlier when he said Dean represented his will to live and Bobby his will to die. Yes, Sam played a bigger part but I don't see why its so wrong to want to hear someone acknowledge that without Dean the world would have burned. No one, not even same ever acknowledges the part Dean played. It's too easy to dismiss.

Can I adopt this head canon

Jensen and the tapeball. The Jawline...the hair.....

Not for me. I'd prefer stronger to sinless.

The ep is called Fan Fiction for a reason. That's a fan fic version of how Sam sees Dean. In the show verse, ep 9,01 doesn't paint a very flattering picture of how Sam views his brother.

If Death was just a figment of Sam's imagination then its why I have a hard time believing Sam really believes he's "the least of them," and why his humbleness rings false. It wasn't just death showing up to reap Sam, he was full on fan boying him. There is a 2nd verse to that that. A single man tear, that’s all I’ll spare I bury feelings, don’t show I care Even though I am haunted, must be the man daddy wanted Wish I could be as strong as Sam Blaze my own trail, be my own man But underneath this broken mask It is my father, with all his wrath A single man tear, a single man tear, a single man tear, that’s all we fear Even here they had to make sure they emphasized Sam.

No, it was the show. They said Dean wanting to say yes was a result of him wanting to give up. I didn't interpret that it was part of the show. That is the reason the show gave for Dean wanting to say yes. We'll have to agree to disagree here because again why was the toy even needed? Why wasn't Dean showing up, allowing himself to be beaten to a pulp, and promising to never leave Sam enough of a distraction? Couldn't that have reminded Sam off all the times Dean was there for him? It's not like John needed the moon light to bounce of his wedding ring and have flashbacks to Dean being before before he wrestled control. Dean's pleading and begging was enough. It's not like Bobby needed some kind light to show him a picture of his wife and make him realize that even if he didn't want kids he did a pretty good job with John's. Dean pleading was enough. Why is it that the brothers who are supposed to have the strongest bond needed some kind of prop. One we've also never heard of or saw before. If the amulet had fallen out of Sam's pocket, I wouldn't have liked it but at least its something that had history. The toy was pulled out of thin air. I understand what Kripke was going for, but I think the toy solider muddied the waters and put more focus on it rather then Dean's himself (and I'm talking physical presence.). Plus, the narrative itself called the car the most important object in the universe. Not, the brothers bond. Plus, the show itself has never once acknowledged Dean played a part. Even in Sam's mind, Dean's just a half wit who didn't do Jack, and it was Sam and Sam alone who saved the world.

Yes, but it wasn't Sam. Sam tried and failed twice.

Killing Lucifer also would have been a plan. I can't see Dean standing back and just letting Michael destroy part of the word. What's to say Dean couldn't have worked his magic and talked Michael into working with them. So it wouldn't be necessary for Dean to wrestle control. Those Jensen vs Jensen scenes would have been spectacular to watch. In the end its a TV show, things aren't written in stone, so Dean saying yes to Michael doesn't have to fit with the way Swan Song played out. The writers could have adapted that ep to allow for Dean to say yes, or for both to say yes or for neither to say yes. Its why I feel like Sam was propped at Deans' expense because the show made Dean into a quitter and had everyone support Sam for wanting to do the same thing.\ While this may sound harsh, why would anyone have faith that Sam could over come Lucifer when he couldn't even over come ghost possession or Meg, who compared to Lucifer is stunt demon number 3.

As much as I don't like to say it, Dean was much more of a liability in 12B

Michael knew about the cage, regardless of what vessel he was in. But it wasn't Dean that allowed Sam to access those memories. It was the toy. I dont' see why an avatar for Dean was needed if Dean was right there. That will never make sense to me. Because imagine if Dean treated that toy like Sam treated the amulet and he kept it in the glove compartment? The toy ruined that ep for me becuse it showed how easily Dean can be replaced. Why would Dean stand around pointlessly? If he got control of Michael even for a few minutes, he could have killed Lucifer. If Dean was in control, the world didn't have to burn, because Lucifer was too weak by this point.

Michael has the power to kill Lucifer. Or he could have fought and shoved him back in the cage. All the more easier to do when Lucifer is weak. Or the show could have gone with the original ending with both brothers saying yes and going into the pit together. It's not true there were no other options. Only taking Lucifer off the board presents the same problem, because there was no guarantee Sam was going to be able to wrestle control. So Sam saying yes, even with a plan was as much danger as Dean saying yes without one. Becuase ultimately the odds are Lucifer running amok with no one to stop him and If he can't Lucifer is in his true vessel and it makes it easier for him to destroy the world. Sam's destiny was supposed to be him leading a demon army so he over came his destiny even by saying yes. Dean saying no ultimately made no difference since there was someone else there to say yes. It didn't change the story since it was Sam's plastic toy that was needed for Sam to take control.

Sam came up with that idea when he was drunk and upset because Dean left to go work with Crowley. It's wasn't any less of a hail Mary than Dean wanting to say yes to Michael. I dont' believe Dean would have just sat back and watched the world burn without attempting to do something. Maybe instead of treating Dean like he was a quitter they could have backed him and came up with a plan for Dean to attempt to take control. (I disagree that Dean couldn't do it. In the end its a show and if the writers want them to do it they can). Logically, the plan makes no sense because Lucifer was 3 steps away from his vessel imploding, so that would have made it easier for Michael to defeat Lucifer in a weakened state. (The way that scene went with them basically whining at each other, I didn't believe they were going to destory half that cemetary let alone the world). Take Sam and Dean out of the equation- Two plans neither are very good. Plan A- If it fails you have a 50% chance of survival. You're powering up your strongest weapon and sending him against an enemy that is weak and getting weaker every day. The quarterback is a guy who has a history of being able to talk sense into people and overcoming long odds. Plan B- If it fails you have no chance at survival. You're giving the enemy its strongest weapon, fuel to make it stronger (and by that I mean demon blood), and sending an inferior weapon to stop it. Plus the quarterback in that plan tried and failed twice to do what he said he was going to do. If you knew nothing about the situation, what makes more sense from a strategic point of view.

Is he really going to be the emotional POV when all the emotion seems like its going to take place between Jack/Sam and Sam/Mary. Last season I wouldn't even say Dean had the' POV since for the first time in 12 seasons I was completely lost as to what was going on with Dean. I expect a lot more of the same this season. "Sam's got it." "What do we do Sam." "Can you fix it Sam" "Sam's working on it." I guess Dean can stand around an look pretty. I don't mean just doing the raid. I meant overall.

IMO, one of the worst culprits at Sam vs Dean or putting down one brother to prop the other is the show itself. It's not surprising that it carries over to fans. The writers admitted to keeping score and letting Sam do stuff because Dean got too. I can name several times when the show propped Sam at Dean's expense and I suspect Sam fans can also name examples of the reverse. This was never more evident than in their hell time. The show could have just said both boys suffered terribly. Instead they made sure to degrade and devalue Dean's at every opportunity. They even made Dean call it Graceland. If they even mention Dean's time its to degrade it further, or act like it was no more annoying than a hang nail. They keep going on about Sam's time, and from the sounds of this season we're going there again. Or when Dean wanted to say yes to Michael. It was the worst idea ever and Dean was a quitter and deserved to get beaten by Cas. (Some even called that scene hot). Sam wants to say yes and its the best idea ever. I can name several more but those two stick out the most. Last season, Sam is suddenly the planner, decision maker, weapons expert, leader, and go between with all the guest stars (he's leading the questioning and doing all the bonding) I'd rather Dean have an the action scene since his scene with Mary was all about Sam anyway. It's like Deans' trauma doesn't exist and its only brought up to make a point at how Dean failed Sam. Then they juxtapose that with Sam leading the charge on the men of letters headquarters, and showing that Sam succeeded despite Dean. What good is a mea culpa when the narrative rewards Sam for it. He's now the leader of Team Free Will and the hunting community despite being the only hunter snowed by them. This season So while this sounds bitter, its an honest question I have- What's Dean's purpose/role on the show these days?

It's true Dean might not have been reaching for alcohol or bottling up his emotions but for me laying down and letting your family walk all over you is an equally unhealthy way of dealing with them. In that sense I disagree Dean showed character growth. It was just more of the same. I don't feel too bad because even Jensen didn't see them. He admitted he was confused and off balance all season because he had no idea how to approach Dean's interactions with Mary. He said it clicked for him when he read the script and when he talked to Berens, Berens had no idea what Jensen was even talking about. I don't buy he was "joking about not knowing" because if its just a conversation between him and Jensen. Who would the audience for the joke be? So if the writer of the ep, didn't even make the connection I'm not surprised so many viewers didn't either. I don't think the ep was written with a connecting the dot's intention in mind, because I doubt Berens even saw them. I remember watching The Sixth Sense for the first time, and I had to applaud the writer because he truly had me fooled. I didn't see the ending coming. When I watched it a 2nd time I was able to pick up on the nuances and clues, and had several "aha moments." I didn't get that. Looking back there are no clues or subtleties and suggest Dean even harboured an unconscious hatred of Mary. So, for me it failed on every level. It was just something Berens pulled out of thin air. That's the way it read to me. I agree there was no catharsis. It was just another heart break for Dean in the end. They didn't just deconstruct the Myth of Mary they ruined her completely. Now, I question if she would have even stuck around if she hadn't been killed. She certainly didn't seem interested in the whole mom business. Since I didn't and don't think much of Dabb as a show runner, I had ridiculously low expectations for the Mary storyline and he managed to not even met those, but that is more a topic for the writers thread. As for Mary and Dean's relationship, I don't think they'll go further into it. I think its pretty much done. Dean talked about how much she hurt Sam, and Mary apologized to Sam. So I doubt we'll see much more depth. I feel like I'm straying a little too close to bitch/jerk territory so I'll just agree to disagree on the whole Mary issues.

IIRC, Richard brought out shot glasses of what looked like Whiskey. But according to Richard were actually iced tea because drinking on stage at creation cons isn't allowed.

As much as I would love to see Benny back, I believe Ty is from Vancouver. So its more likely they met up as friends.

IMO, what prevented them from establishing a relationship was that Mary wasn't there. Dean tried to reach out to her several times. Even after he left he tried to keep in touch and establish boundries. The only time Dean froze Mary out was briefly after he found out she lied to them. Then he quickly accepted her back. It didn't feel like repressed feelings were were stopping Dean so much as Mary physically was out of the picture. I just didn't get that from Jensen's performance that he was subconsciously pushing her away.

I can agree to a certain extent that Dean wasn't bottling things up. I've said before that I really liked how Jensen portrayed Dean with a renewed sense of confidence and even a bit of self esteem. Something changed after ep 12. That' when I think Dean started downing the Valium because it felt like Dean had this real air of defeat all around him. It was written all over his face after ep 15 when he found out Sam lied to him and manipulated him into working with the Brits. Someone whose care free doesn't suddenly become incompetent on hunts and drop weapons or act like they don't want to be there in the first place (that's if he can even manage to show up). Those for me just aren't the actions of someone whose care free. Its far closer to someone whose give up. It's almost like Dean came to realize his feelings really don't matter and the only way he can have a relationship with Sam or Mary is if he becomes who they think he should be, rather than who he is. Dean apologized to Mary for being angry when he had every right to be. Mary continued to ignore and push Dean away no matter what he did. That's when the wheels feel off for me. Because it was just Dean once again taking it, burying it, and shoving down all the betrayals and lies. Despite everyone one Dean's inner circle lying and going behind his back, it was Dean who did all the reaching out, compromising and apologizing. Which, to me is character regression. True growth would have been Dean standing his ground, but he gave in. Yes, its a Dean trait, but its not character growth. I guess the reason the speech fits more for John, is because i have reference points that show me that Dean had some resentment toward John. Dream a little Dream of Me we see that Dean blames john for not protecting mom, and Bad Boys showed us that Dean did harbour some resentment about all the responsibility John put on him. I don't think that like about fixing cars and no longer being responsible was just about cars. The show did such a crappy job of establishing any kind of relationship between Dean and Mary, that I didn't feel any resentment from Dean towards Mary. Jensen is normally so good at that, that's why I think it was never something that was building. I'm glad Jensen was able to find meaning it it because it was superberly delivered even if I didn't like what it has to say.

I've always found the whole "Dean need to learn to open up and communicate his feelings and talk about his needs" to be exaggerated. Show runners, and bloggers often make it a special point in their interviews, or reviews as if its some novel thing, and that helps perpetuate the stereotype. But I found that even though the writers try to shove Dean in this narrow box that doesn't fit. Overall, I find Sam the emotionally closed off brother. I'm not saying that Dean doesn't try to keep them close the vest at time, but for the most part I find if you give him his space and don't pressure him he will open up. Off the top of my head in the early episodes. Pilot- Dean tells Sam he doesn't want to do it alone after Sam tells him he can. Deans' admitted that he may not need Sam, but he wants him. He's making himself vulnerable here an opening himself up to rejection. Windego- Explains to Sam that he deals with hunting stress by trying to help other people's families not be as screwed up as there. In this ep, it was Sam that wanted to leave when he found out John wasn't there. Dead in the Water- Admits to being scared after the fire and tells Lucas he tries to be brave for his mom. Once again making himself vulnerable. Phantom Traveler- Admits he's afraid to fly. Home- Admits to John that he needs help, and once again makes himself vulnerable and opens up to rejection. Scarecrow- Tells Sam he's proud for being able to stand up to Dad and says he wish he could. Route 666- opened up to Cassie and told her the truth about who he was (maybe not talking about feelings, but it is once again opening Dean up to rejection). Had several honest conversations with Cassie.\ Shadow- Admits he wants the whole family together after Sam asks him what he wants. Something Wicked- Opens up and talks about how he feels its his fault the Windego got away. Provenence- Initiates an emotional moment by trying to convince Sam to have some fun with Sarah Salvation- Finally tells Dad off for ignoring them. Devil's Trap- Admits he's scared about how far he'll go for family. So for "No chick flick moments" Dean, that's a "chick flick moment in a little over half the episodes. There may be more that I'm forgetting. How many times has Dean opened up only to have the words boo hoo thrown in his face and told to shove those feelings down. If I were Dean, I woudn't want to open up at this point either. So, s12 was no different for me in terms of character development for Dean. I felt there was some in the first half where he was standing up for himself, but that turned to character regression after The Raid when Dean started mainlining the Valium and turned back into the family doormat. I'm glad Who We Are worked for Jensen, but it didn't work for me because from what I saw. If Dean had subconscious hate toward his mother, I could see him pushing her away. He didn't, he reached out to her. It was Mary that rejected him. Dean's anger at Mary didn't need to be subconscious, as Dean had very legitimate surface reasons to be angry with Mary. (Sam too, but I'm focusing on Dean). I agree with @catrox14 who said the speech would better fit with Dean's relationship with John. Sam's speech at the End of Love Hurts didn't work either because it was just words. When Sam had a chance to back them when God was telling Dean he didn't want Amara dead, Sam just sat there and didn't defend his brother. Why didn't Sam ever tell Dean that he believed in him. I used to volunteer at a vocactional center and the hardest thing I had to learn was that if someone was struggling with doubt and self confidence it did them no favors by doing it for them. What I needed from Sam was, "Yeah Dean I do it if necessary, but your stronger than you think." I'm not suggesting that Dean is comfortable with emotions or that he's an open book or that he handles emotional situations perfectly, I just think the show needs to move on and stop acting like Dean needs to learn to communicate. He's can and has. Its more that other people need to actually listen to what he's saying. That IMO, is a far bigger problem. And most of all stop telling him to shove them back down, because its not convenient for them that Dean isn't acting like they think he's supposed to, or my least favorite excuse, "its not the right time for Dean to have a break down. " TL/DR Version- I think Dean is better with his emotions than the show tries to portray and it needs to stop defining Dean by his "No chick flick" statement he made in the Pilot

I should have been more specific. Yes, Jensen said he would have suggested it had he know, and I know that it was too late by the time production started, I was refering more to 2nd episode. It started the Monday after comic. Being in San Diego allows JA and JP to build up scruff, they could have kept it.