slothgirl

Yes, you are right about the necklace. I realied that on re-watch last night The shape of the pelvis is how gender can be determined on a skeleton. You wouldn't have to be a doctor, but you would need knowledge of anatomy. The diver could conceivably have enough training. However if there was flesh on the skeleton, you might need other indicators. They didn't give us much of a look at it, but it appeared to have some hair left. (not that long hair is a good determiner) Maybe remnants of a skirt? Determining age would have been harder I would think. Did the diver make the call, or was the medical examiner there by the time they brought the body up? Have we learned yet just WHEN Marin disappeared from Mosswood? I can't remember anything that definitely states that she left wile Julian was an infant, so it wouldn't have to be 13 years. One of the issues with this show being dragged out so long and with such a spider web of details, I can't remember what we've been told vs what we try to assume based on the few known facts. If they spent half as much time reinforcing the timeline a little better instead of using repeated shots of the fire as filler, I wouldn't spend so much time frustrated trying to remember important details. They did this in season 1 also... too much re-airing of the same shots of wallpaper and staircases and whatnot as filler. I recently watched a movie on late night with Jessica Biel called the Tall Man... same sort of genre and managed to tell a complex story in movie length format. This show has too much padding just to make it a longer series. I think it's a mistake to be using this format.

The tea was why I said the commercial break derailed Ambrose train of thought which is why he didn't ask the obvious question "What kind of tea?" He asks "And everyone just followed you?" which is a question out of nowhere. At the point her narrative had stopped for commercial, she was "apologizing" to the Beacon, not standing up to him. And the Beacon becomes unhappy and drifts off from the cult? She's already told Ambrose about the violence.... he's not naive... he knows that people like that don't just let someone usurp their power over their flock. She didn't tell him that Julian was to be a sacrifice however. WE know that, but nothing in her story to Ambrose made that clear and he doesn't have any reason to know about the calf. But I hate it when writers have people behave in a totally unbelievable way as the method of avoiding revealing something to viewers. There's no reason at all for Ambrose to NOT ask about the tea, and every reason that he would. A poster upthread mentioned that some sightings of the figure could be imaginary while others are real. I think the jury's still out on which it is or who. Having it be Marin is the obvious answer. Well, obvious if we assume that the body hasn't been proven to be Marin's yet even though Heather acted like it was. It's the answer I like the least. It's more interesting storytelling if it's Vera or imaginary. If the big reveal is that Marin is still alive and has been haunting or stalking Julian since she disappeared (and all is right with the world in the end, unless of course she killed the fake parents and has to go to jail) it's rather lazy writing. Last season was a let-down as well... but at least it wasn't what we could guess in advance. Totally agree. Maybe not 2 hours but 4 or 5 tops. I also thought it was a woman's face, but I couldn't see whose. That doesn't preclude it from being imaginary. Have we been told how old Julian was when Marin disappeared? Seems like it's been kept vague all along. And once the beacon was gone, what would have been Marin's reason for staying secret and hidden if she wanted to come back? She'd have to be afraid of Vera. We still don't know the reason Julian was kidnapped. There wouldn't be much reason for that either with the Beacon gone unless the couple knew Marin was alive and were taking him to her. That would mean Marin's total lack of interest in the baby was a red herring and Vera's attachment to him was the issue all along. Who actually killed the couple? Julian thinks he did, or at least feels responsible in some way, but... Who was the woman many many rambling episodes ago that had the necklace from the dead woman? Someone other than Julian was there. What is Jack's role here? I keep hoping that he is basically a good guy with maybe some minor involvement in the cult. Is Brick really just a side character with no real purpose other than they need more cops to be realistic, or is there going to be something more with him? Who sedated Ambrose and got him back to the hotel room if we believe Vera saying it wasn't her? Could Marin have managed that on her own? Is she living in that cabin when Vera's not there? A lot of dropped threads at the moment. It does seem like they all assumed the body was Marin. I would expect better from Heather... she's a police officer as well as emotionally invested in it NOT being Marin. Even if he wasn't the biological father, he would think of the baby as "his". They are all "his". I wonder if he got far enough in the biblical thought process to remember that Issac lives.... no thanks to Abraham. (I also vaguely remember from my bible studies that Issac's faith was so strong that he was willing to be sacrificed and THAT"S the reason God saved him... It wasn't really about Abraham at all, but I could be wrong) So was the Beacon expecting divine intervention? Often these cult leaders don't actually believe their own hype; it's just a control mechanism. If he was expecting God to save Julian at the time of sacrifice, he's not merely a sociopath; he's flat out delusional, which is an interesting twist. (not THAT interesting, but at least it goes a step further than just your typical psychopathic cult leader) Julian is ethnically ambivalent enough that he could be almost anyone's, but I'm also wondering if there is more to the DA guy now. Other than Heather, have we seen any other non-Caucasians? Was Heather's Mom black or maybe Heather was adopted? Black grandparent on her father's side? Normally I wouldn't care about Heather's race in relation to her Dad's, but parentage is a theme of this season, so I'm thinking it was deliberate that a black actress was cast, or at least that it will be addressed. Also wanted to say that Carrie Coons is lovely with longer hair!

Well just when I thought I knew where they were going with that tale... nope... the commercial break apparently broke Ambrose concentration so he didn't ask the obvious. So in this episode, just in case any viewers were still unclear, we learn that the dark purpose of the cult, wrapped up and masked by spiritual mumbo-jumbo, is for men to freely abuse women while making them feel like they are benefiting from the abuse.

or Heather's Dad.

I had another thought about Marin's mother, etc.. Didn't Marin say that her mother accused her of carrying on with the mother's boyfriend? What if (as so often happens) it wasn't that Marin was the problem, but that the BF was a creep who raped her. (thus leading to her awful relationship with a mother more concerned with keeping her bf than believing her daughter) And Julian is THAT man's child. Do we have any information about who Marin's mother's boyfriend was?

Yes, I remember that... I'm just wondering if there will turn out to be anything further about Marin's mom in relation to the community's ties to the cult. Why on earth did she save that box of things, and especially the book? Given her attitude about Marin and re-purposing Marin's room, it makes no sense for her to have kept a few things, except either A) plot device so that we have the book with Julian's name, or B) the fact that she kept them is relevant to the story beyond just being a way to introduce the book.

(moved to speculation thead)

We don't know whose body they showed in the promo for next week. I think they intend us to assume it is Marin, but it could be Jeffries. (or someone we haven't heard much about yet who is just there as plot development to expose a murder at Mosswood to give authorities a reason to dig deeper... pun intended). I'm not clear on who (if anyone) that guy was beating up in the video... perhaps it's THAT person who is dead, which would explain a lot about some of the weird behavior from him and others that don't live at Mosswood. The cult could be raising the kid for sacrifice, or it could be that only Vera knows that is/was the intention. I wasn't clear on whther the rest of the cult knew all along that that was the purpose for the calf or at what point they were told. Some of you thought all along Julian was being groomed for sacrifice. I got more of an impression that he was being groomed to become the cult leader eventually. I can't think of any reason why Jeffries would be living in a storage unit, but Marin might be. Of course, we don't know where the storage unit person went either. I can't even remember now WHERE the storage unit was.... just that there were kid's clothes there. Where did the book that Marin had underlined come from? The storage unit or the things that Marin's mom kept for no good reason in what had been Marin's room. Speaking of Marin's mom... is she just a garden variety bad mother, or will there be more to her story? I can't think of any reason for Vera to get rid of Jeffries except primarily to protect Julian, so if it is Jeffries that is dead, what would be the point of kidnapping Julian to save him (unless the fake parents also just wanted to leave anyway, and were taking him to Marin.) If the cult thought the sacrifice would go on with or without Jeffries, then it would make sense for the couple to try to save him. If Vera knew the sacrifice was off, there would be no reason for her to help get Julian out at that point. We don't even know if the rest of the cult knew Jeffries planned to use him like the calf or at what age. (if that was in fact, the intention) Where did the calf come from? Are they already raising animals as food? That would mean they are already killing them anyway. Or have they mentioned that they are vegetarians? Seems likely that the calf came from mustache guy. Did they actually say? Someone knows all about this toxic plant. Now maybe they all know because they are living off the land, and education on what is safe and not safe to eat is just part of life at the commune. Or maybe it's been used before. We also have the house in the woods that is all set up for Jeffries (or as a shrine to him). For all we know Jeffries is still wandering the woods and lives in that house. Or Marin does. Or nobody but Vera even knows it's there. Dr Jeffries comes across as a sociopath/psychopath, so considering how many of his unborn children might have gotten aborted already to to allow him to have unfettered access to sex with whoever he wants, I don't see the fatherly bond preventing him from killing Julian. His primary purpose in life is power and control over others. But who knows how long the urge to kill was brewing before he killed the calf. Actually, we don't even know it was he that killed the calf... for all we know, after that heart-breaking shot of the wide -eyed calf facing the knife, maybe he called Vera up to do it. Maybe he expected Vera or Marin to do his dirty work killing Julian because he gets off on convincing others to commit violence while he watches, as well as convincing some to allow themselves to be victimized. Of course, they don't expect the men to get vasectomies... the cult leader would have to be one of them, and every part of him is sacred or whatever. His "seed" is probably holy even though it doesn't want it to grow into anything. Even when men aren't sociopaths, quite a few seem to think that they are less of a man without semen. We have an entire society full of of double standards around sex, pregnancy and children. There's no reason for this cult to be any different. My biggest complaint of this show is that with so many long commercial breaks, I have time to fall asleep or get up to go to the kitchen. I don't have DVR so I am never sure whether something I don't know hasn't been revealed yet or whether I missed it.

I'm having a hard time believing that Marin ditched Heather as a friend just because Heather kissed her that night, and they had agreed not to do that again. Did something else happen between them that night that I missed? I'm also wondering if your hidden comment is an actual spoiler based on things we haven't seen yet or speculation based on what we have seen. Does it make me a bad person that I'm more bothered by the calf (even though I eat meat... no veal though) than I am about that girl having her uterus removed without her consent? They even developed that part of the story and the characters' reaction to it to generate more disgust in us than what they have done to humans so far.

Thoughts on this episode: 1) There are WAY too many commercial breaks in this series 2) It just drags along without enough happening and feels like it could have been told in fewer episodes. 3) I wonder if those 2 things are related. 4) eyeroll

I was going to do a rewatch of the early episodes to look for clues and found that it is NOT available on demand with my cable company. Poo

I think it's also possible that: Do we actually need to use spoiler tags for unspoiled speculation?

I'm pretty sure it will be a topic for next week's episode. I just assume Vera got help; taking him there from the cabin, although I suppose it's possible that he got himself back in a fugue or disassociative state I don't think there's any legal expectation of privacy, or guarantee of such, in a police inquiry. The police keep things private for their own interests to protect the investigation, not to protect the individuals being investigated, or anyone surrounding the case. There are probably department guidelines that vary widely as to speaking about a case and possibly jeopardizing it. But they aren't doctors or counselors... as an agency, they can probably tell anyone they want about the case as long as they don't reveal information that is protected by some other legal means. As individuals, they may be restricted from it, but it's a "look the other way" departmental offense because everyone does it. Also, small towns are where people blab all over town the MOST! The police are probably the LAST to know what's going on. haha She specifically brings up "you are lying to yourself" just after Heather tried to kiss her, Marin rebuffed her saying "I thought we said we aren't going to do that anymore" and Heather saying ok, fine I'll drop it. THAT"S when Marin said you are lying to yourself. I don't see how you can infer that it's about Heather's father from that. Sure, could be about ANYTHING... but it definitely got triggered by Heather first trying to kiss her and then agreeing to drop it. I think it's more likely about Heather not admitting that she won't be able to drop it and pretend it's not an issue. I can't remember the other times Marin's said that Heather was lying to herself, but I am considering a binge watch this weekend to see if some early things make more sense with what we have learned so far revealed

I was thinking that maybe Heather wasn't quite ready to face it back in the flashbacks and might have tried to pretend she was also just experimenting or Bi. It was the only reason I could think of why Marin brings it up when she does. What else could Heather be lying to herself about when it comes to affection for Marin? Yes, they are breaking the cardinal rule of suspense... you can't just keep adding questions. You have to throw the audience a bone every now and then. Answer something every now and then. Make one thing clear but leave some more uncertainty. They just keep throwing in everything they can think of to muddy the waters and raise more questions. I guess we did learn one thing... it seems maybe Harry's mom didn't die in the fire itself. It reminds me of the demise of the original X-files. It got so convoluted that I just didn't care anymore. Or Lost. Even when they claim that all will become clear before the end, if you don't get ANYTHING answered until the very end, you lose interest. They need to realize it's no different from a relationship. There's keeping some mystery and allowing for discovery of your partner over time, and then there's those people you date where you can't take ANYTHING at face value and instead of piquing your interests, it just increases your mistrust and you walk away (hopefully). And I'm with you on how EVERYONE is a damn suspect.

I'm liking this series, but it's too long and starting to feel like it's going to turn out cliche'. We're only halfway through and it's still all a big tease. This could have been at least 2-4 episodes shorter and been more riveting. The performances are good, but they aren't enough to make up for what increasingly feels like another disappointing conclusion (like last season's). We now have the requisite male cult leader who probably used his position to sexually assault vulnerable brainwashed newbies. We have hints that doctors routinely sterilized the women when they got pregnant. We have a massive town conspiracy (to what purpose? How could it possibly serve the Powers That Be in the town to encourage residents to join an isolated cult and then eliminate the possiblity of kids there? Maybe it's their version of Eugenics... get rid of the town's ne'er do wells and delinquents while stopping them from breeding at the same time) We've got a mysterious lake that people might be getting "buried" in And we seem to have hypnosis as a therapy tool (that beating sound has got to be in aid of that) on unsuspecting patients... possible brainwashing there too? It's all so prurient and titillating, just like last year's hints of sexual slavery and abduction. I'm interested in what's going on for Vera. I'm still getting a sense that she's a force for good somehow, or wants to be and may not be aware that she's harming. I care about Julian. The child actor is doing great! I don't care a whit about Marin (poor girl, no one caring about her is how she got into this mess). I like Heather, but it's SO obvious that what Marin keeps going on about her "lying to herself" is about her being gay. I wish EVERY SINGLE DAMN CHARACTER (except Heather and Harry) wasn't suspicious and creepy. Maybe that's why I have trouble seeing Heather's father as being shifty and secretive... it's just too much. They could just change the name to "Trust No One". (If he was really hiding things, he didn't need to go to such lengths to recall the tatoo design) I think this series would do far better to focus on the psychological development instead of teasing lurid crap (both seasons), especially when sexual deviance and brainwashing are exactly what we expect from a story involving a cult. So the big reveal will be what? ... the cult is exactly what we expect a cult to be? Or that it isn't? When they hinge the entire plot development on this, there's only 2 possible outcomes and one is boring, therefore it must be the other... or maybe not, but I'm starting to not care. Showrunners: Stop trying to create plot development type suspense as the hook for this show. You made that mistake last season and many of us felt burned that it didn't pay off. Now you're doing it again in a season where there is plenty of psych stuff to carry the show.

I missed the first 5-10 minutes... who was the crazy woman and how did they get hooked up with her?

I don't understand why the psycho-bitch mom would have even bothered to save anything of hers.. and that the box would have been easy to dig out after all this time. The only reason for it is plot development

Interesting ideas. I read a synopsis of Ep 1 on Vulture that reminded me that Ambrose disappeared from the lives of people in Keller 15 years ago when Heather's Mom died. I wasn't clear on whether he LEFT at that time or whether he had already left and came back for the funeral, THEN cut off contact. Either way, there was something significant for him either at that time, or on that trip. Given the tension between Heather's Dad and Ambrose, plus the overall themes of the show, I wonder if: I'm also wondering where Keller, NY is supposed to be It's not a real place.. I google-mapped).. Wasn't season one supposed to be in the vicinity of Syracuse? Vulture says that Ambrose only moved 4 hours away, and their reviews keep referring to "Upstate NY" and "Hudson Valley". So either Nigara Falls is a hell of a lot bigger that I thought, or they need to look at a map. Even Syracuse isn't upstate (to anyone except maybe people from NYC who think the entire rest of the state is "upstate") and it DEFINITELY isn't the Hudson Valley. Four hours WEST of Syracuse (getting closer to Niagara Falls) isn't even CLOSE to upstate or Hudson Valley. RHODE ISLAND is closer to the Hudson Valley than the western part of NY state, for pete's sake! (but that's a quibble with Vulture, not the show.. I'm just wondering where the show says the town is located) Well, the doctor was part of the cult wasn't he? Isn't that why he had a miniature rock and off'ed himself? If he had powerful allies in the town like the diary farmer (and maybe that weird sheriff), why would he have felt the need to commit suicide?

Thoughts on rewatch (ncluding some totally unspoiled speculation): The cop's Dad isn't nearly as creepy as those Rotary Club people, especially big-moustache-man... HE was damn creepy staring Ambrose down! Also, I remember in either Ep 1 or 2, Dad was telling some story and Heather said it didn't happen. I was getting the impression that Dad is in early stages of dementia. He also seems to want Ambrose to leave. Maybe because Dad knows something that would upset Heather and he doesn't want her to find out? Ambrose might help her dig into stuff? So maybe secretive, but I'm not getting creepy from him. But maybe the reason he has no problem with her being gay is because it means she wouldn't get victimized by sexual antics of male cult members? Or maybe he just wants to hide his growing dementia loonger and thinks Ambrose might see it before Heather. If Ambrose was there for quite awhile after the fire (clearly they've seen him since, because the fire was more than 15 years ago), how is it that the fire is some big mystery to all the townspeople, and it's what everyone focuses on when they see him? Cop's Dad brought it up at the Rotary Club like it was something neither he nor other people knew much about, even though I recall a whole burnt out house in Episode 1 that Ambrose drove past. Surely in a town like that everyone knows everything that ever happened to anyone? It's such a small place they have ONE OB/Gyn and this fire that no one seems to have ever cleaned up from is a big secret that only Ambrose has any knowledge of? Do we know what happened to Ambrose' Dad? Have they ever mentioned him? We're supposed to get ultra cult vibes from Mosswood, but when Julian describes death he says that you start over in another form. The psychologist latches onto that and asks who told him that. Oh NO! Stop the presses and call the courts! They're Buhddists! Seriously, most of the world believes in some sort of afterlife and many believe that you come back to earth in another form. So that's not exactly earth shattering cultism. Splitting in 2 when you lie could also be a metaphor. (In Ep 1, Vera talked to Julian about Shadow Julian) So at this point, I'm thinking the the "cult" people aren't the bad guys here so far. I'm also doubting that Julian is in any danger there. If anything, if he IS some sort of "chosen one", it would make far more sense from a usual cult standpoint for him to be chosen as the next LEADER, not a sacrifice. Cults usually revolve around a charismatic male leader. I could buy that Julian is the son of the guy that Marin went off with that first night and that guy was the leader at the time. Have we actually seen ANY evidence of the cult being evil (beyond the kid being a killer.. of people who kidnapped him)? Or are we buying into stereotypes, and that's exactly how the writers want us to respond to the idea? In an earlier scene with Vera and Julian, she is trying to help him deal with negative feelings in a better way. Yet we react to the scene as though there's something wrong going on. I'm now questioning why? I need to go back and watch Ep 1. Memories of season 1 of the show are also making me skeptical about the cult being evil because: So far the story I'm most interested in is Heather's. I don't care about this mysterious fire because I'm not buying that it's such a well-kept secret. I'm fully expecting: (speculation, so not a true spoiler) Although that wouldn't explain the weird suicide of the OB/Gyn or the lack of other children. Of course, they could be like the Shakers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakers Edited to add: Marin;s Mom is a real piece of work

I just saw an ad for an episode of Mom (with Allison Janney who we all want to see Gibbs ride off into the sunset with) showing Dornegut in some role. I ahven't watched the show so I don't know if it's a guest role or recurring

It always bugged me that the entire NCIS agency home office only had one pathologist and one forensic scientist. The only way they got away with that is that their pathologist always had an assistant, and their one scientist was world class (it's hard to find someone of that caliber, although even having someone like that should have meant that she was head of a department, but they handwaved that with all the shenanigans of people brought to assist.) If they are going to be hiring someone fresh out of grad school, or even someone with only a few years experience I can't suspend my disbelief that there's only one person. Kasie should be working under an older more experienced scientist at this stage... not being the sole forensic person at the entire f'in agency. We'll just ignore the fact that there should be a team of crime scene forensic personnel gathering evidence at crime scenes, not just the detectives dealing with it and taking it to Abby.

I was replying to the poster who wonder if the timing was off for being included this year

Nope.. it was eligible. Just passed over

No Emmy nominations for the Terror???? REALLY????

The writers on this show never knew how to write actual women. The closest they got was Colonel Mann, and even she had her moments of being absurd (not many, but at least one). Early-seasons Abby was an interesting character that I could believe, but the character "development" was to devolve. There was NO WAY that someone with Kate's credentials and experience would have let someone like Tony get under her skin the way she did. Delilah is great and so was Coast Guard lady (the character name escapes me) but they appeared far too little. As much as I didn't like her in the beginning, Bishop is actually becoming one of the most believable female characters, but I wish they'd let her and Jake have a good marriage. I think the fact that she was married and obviously too young for Tony gave a much needed break to the constant attempt to create sexual/romantic tension for Tony and his co-workers, which was a driving force in the silly writing for Ziva and Kate. As a side note to the fish... pet peeve/unpopular opinion. The fish thing bother me. Tony obviously keeps buying fish and naming them all Kate, because a goldfish will only live about 2 weeks in a stereotypical "goldfish bowl". And if he kept it in a properly sized aquarium, the original Katefish would be at least 10" long by now and would need at least a 50 gallon tank. I have the same pet peeve with The West Wing with the goldfish CJ (Allison Janney) had on her desk supposedly given to her by Danny... I guess Danny kept buying her new fish. I don't like shows perpetuating improper animal care beliefs, even if it is just goldfish. Goldfish are a LOT of work. Popular opinion: Please get Allison Janney on NCIS as a love interest for Gibbes or at least a guest star for an episode!