slothgirl

Am I inventing a connection or did they actually hint that Zeke is the Major's son? I wasn't paying close attention and I remember a file with her picture around the same time Zeke's DNA was being run. Or am I conflating 2 scenes (or a scene and a preview)? If there is a tie between the Major and either (both?) Zeke and Griffin, that would at least make some sense in the context of the show. But now I'm reading in the forums that they don't plan to reveal what happened to the plane until the finale in 5 years, I don't know if I will stick it out. The characters aren't compelling enough for me to stick around waiting for answers to the mysteries for that long. TV showrunners and writers need to take lessons from the team from The West Wing. That show could make the tedious process of passing legislation "must-see tv". Meanwhile these people can't make me care about something truly extraordinary.

Gibbes and Fornell really need a spin off. They don't need Phil though. No kidding... that was super weird. It would have made more sense if they hadn't known they were on a manhunt for a living criminal, but thought they were just looking for something that fell out of the plane. My SC relatives who fished a lot pronounced it crappie.

Quoting my own post here... I just realized that if your entire system relies on a wall of breakable lava lamps, you wouldn't want to locate your business anywhere in earthquake prone California! And Fornell's daughter. She rocks! They kill them all off because they don't know any other way to create "drama" other than death.

Almost as weird as the fact that the 3rd party super special world class encryption company is in the DC area at all instead of silicone valley or some other place where super special computer companies are. It's not like they need to be local to the federal government for a contract like that. I've been saying this ever since they went through that time period where he started wearing button-down collared shirts and let his high&tight hair grow longer because of some "changed outlook on life" plotline. The longer hair drags his whole face down and ages him.

I liked the episode in general. But ... I wish Middle Eastern actors could get work other than as terrorists. I loved Pej Vahdat on Bones, and especially the way they played with stereotypes by having his character fake a "middle eastern" accent at the lab until he got caught out not using it eventually (and the reasons the character did that). The actor playing the fake CIA guy was good in Tyrant. They both did really good jobs here (even if Hakim was a bit "mustache twirling"), but it's a shame that these are the kinds of parts they get offered. And that portrayals such as this reinforce stereotypes in the minds of viewers.

Because he overheard them saying that they were never taking him back home and that they had lied to him about the trip and where they were going. He knew they weren't really going to NF's and he knew he'd never see his mother again. He didn't know that initially which is why he seemed happy and close to them in earlier scenes of the trip and then suddenly turned on them. You have to go back and watch the earlier episodes to see that scene. We also learned from the scene with Vera where she talks to him about the weed that he might not have even expected them to die based on what she says about the weed combined with his skewed idea of what death is. But if he did expect them to die, he would have done it because he knew they were kidnapping him. I don't understand why people don't think this was explained. To me it's the ONLY thing that got even partially explained. We have no reason to think the Beacon was still around to sacrifice him. The impression given from the scene of Vera giving the Beacon tea is that Julian was still an infant when the beacon left the picture (in whatever state he left in). I seriously doubt the Beacon would have bothered to raise Julian for that long before going forward with his plan, nor would I expect Vera to wait that long living in anxiety and fear the whole time. Julian thought of Vera as his mother and has plenty of time with her for quite awhile. The Beacon wouldn't have allowed that. He's LONG gone before this incident, and not a factor. Bess and Adam were no doubt working out a plan with Marin and possibly Jack. It had nothing to do with the red herring of the sacrifice.

I posted my thoughts on why he killed them above. I also think they tried to address that question in the courtroom scene where Julian's fate was sealed. They left a lot unanswered, but for me, not that. IMO it was about the only thing they DID answer.

I think you quoted the wrong post in this response. I don't understand how what you wrote relates to the post of mine that you quoted

Julian overheard Bess and Adam saying that they weren't ever taking him back to Mosswood and that the Niagra Falls thing was a ruse. He also believed that when someone died, they just started over and that sometimes people needed to start over as part of their "work". I don't think he fully understood what death was until he saw how horribly Bess was suffering as she died. I think he had motive... what he didn't have was real understanding of what he was motivated to do. The other loose ends? Just stupid writing designed to keep us coming back every week so that the sponsors got their money's worth. They didn't really care about telling a coherent story. They only cared about luring the viewers back week after week. The sad thing is that we would have done that anyway, and perhaps even more people would have if they had done a better job.

Syracuse (NY)

I wouldn't call Marin "fair". She was a brunette and I didn't notice on my tv that she had blue eyes. I don't like that plot twist either, but not for that reason. Julain and Heather look like they could be related to one another, but neither looks related to Jack, frankly. Marin says "He" is the father when she tells Vera she is pregnant. We are to assume she means the Beacon, but she doesn't say so. And I guess we are to assume Vera killed the Beacon, even though she says he just slipped away on his own. This is my problem with the show. They do all this twisty-turny mystery BS, and then they have a great scene between Ambrose and Vera where we read between the lines (based on the character examination and 2 excellent performances) to see that she killed the Beacon. However, the show set-up tells us NOT to read between the lines based on psychology, because it's going to keep throwing out red herrings and playing GOTCHA! with us using plot devices. (remember the body in the lake that turned out to be TOTALLY unrelated and someone we never heard of - or ever heard about again). So we get to decide for ourselves which was true... she killed him.. she didn't kill him. And I don't even care now. Thanks show.. Way to tie up the loose ends there. And everyone lives happily ever after... except Carmen Bell. and poor Marin of course and that sad streetwise hooker who gets her feet burned by psycho Glen. And Ambrose... who wants "Oblivion". (That's what he said to Vera) And Vera herself... who wants to control, not to help, and now has nothing and no one to control. If anyone is interested in a tightly woven mystery of a similar nature, but with less crap thrown at the wall just to see what will stick (and then not cleaned up after dinner) check out Jessica Biel's movie The Tall Man. They could have made more compelling drama of THIS story by making it that short. But based on her involvement in that movie and the nature of these 2 seasons, I think the tone of this show is all her as executive producer.

Well that could have been a nice ending to the show this SHOULD have been from the start, without all the misdirects, tangents, and loose ends. Not really thrilled with it.. the show or the ending. Such a disappointing reveal... so cliche'. Only the fine acting saved this mess.

I have been on board with this theory for awhile. I never got a feeling that Heather's Dad was Julian's father (with Marin). I wondered if he was Marin's father. I disagree that the Beacon is dead. They went to too much trouble to suggest that he was. So I expect the twist is that he isn't. It wouldn't be much of a twist if he IS dead. Although if they wanted to be REALLY tricky, they might be overt about him probably being dead, just to make us think he probably isn't and then he is... Does anyone think the writers are that clever? Have we ever gotten a good look at ponytail guy's face? I don't think so. That's suspicious to me and who he really is will become important. On the other hand, I don't believe the Beacon just "left" of his own accord. That would be out of character for a sociopathic cult leader. And then there's that perfectly maintained cabin of his that still has his picture over the mantle. Does Vera still revere him enough to keep it that way? WOuld she out of a feeling of guilt for killing him? Or is he still shacking up there? I'm questioning how much Vera actually objected to the abuses going on. I find it hard to believe that a bunch of men accustomed to being able to harm women as "therapy" (including Vera herself) would have turned away when she said that the session with Marin was cancelled and that the Beacon was away. I've wanted to give Vera the benefit of the doubt, but that scene really didn't ring true for me. She had more power than she's letting on to Ambrose. That's the only thing that protected her and Marin that night, assuming her story is even true. NO WAY those men would have let a woman call the shots unless they had reason to fear her. I'm also wondering about Heather's Mom. Normally I wouldn't bother wondering about the race of various characters, but they rather deliberately cast a black actress as Heather, with a white father. Julian is the only other character besides the DA who looks like he could be mixed race. In any other show, I wouldn't expect it to mean anything. But this whole show is about parents and kids, so details like that about Heather's Mom seem like they might be significant. I like all 3 actors a lot (Jack, Julian, and Heather) so maybe they just cast the best people for the roles. But.. maybe the race of the characters was a deliberate choice for reasons we don't know yet.

Continuing a thought process from a post I was writing in the episode 1 thread but would be inappropriate there: If there is a season 3, I hope they change the way they tell the story. They let plot twists and uncertainty of what's going on drive the story despite the rich psychology of the characters that could be explored. We still don't know any more about who Vera is or what motivates her than we did when she walked into the police station and said "I am his mother" in Episode 1. We don't know anything more about Julian. We still can only guess about Marin. We still can't tell whether Heather's Dad is a good guy or a bad guy. We have a plethora of minor or unseen characters that we know might be important (like Heather's Mom and some random kid in high school that killed himself) and yet we know nothing about them either. Have we even ever been told Heather's mother's name or how she died? But a hell of a lot of stuff seemed to happen around the TIME she died. So in addition to not knowing yet (with only 1 hour to go) WHAT happened, we don't know why or who or when or what or the overall psychology of the major players. I don't like watching almost all of a mystery and still not knowing more about a character than I did in the character's 1st appearance. We don't even friggin know WHO is dead or alive! (Beacon anyone?) They really went overboard this season keeping EVERYTHING a huge question/secret/mystery and constantly introducing new ones. At least in Season 1, we got good scenes of the actual personalities of the killer and her sister, and the dynamic that existed between them, as well as just WHAT the religious influence was. This season has been nothing but a constant tease of questions. Marin is finally actually dead, and we still don't know who she really was or whether the extensive "look" we got into her motivation has any bearing on reality or was a lie. We don't know if ANYTHING that has come out MOST of the characters' mouths was true or a lie. The only reliable narrator we have at all is Heather. Maybe. As for whether Julian killed Bess and Adam... I have no reason to doubt that he did. I thought the whole premise of the show was that we know who the murderer is, but we don't know why they killed. It's a better story if they don't twist at the end with a "Surprise! It was actually ponytail guy!" That's part of my frustration with the show's format this season (even more than last)... they set it up as a psychological thriller because "whodunnit" is already determined, but then they ignore all the potential in that area and go for the easy out of plot development and giving us nothing until the last episode. It seems like the show needs to give at least ONE fact that stays true around all the other red herrings and plot twists. Or do I need to start speculating that Adam, Bess, or Marin aren't even dead at all too? MAYBE he didn't kill Marin, because that's not part of the premise. But I'm fine with it being him there too. If it turns out Julian didn't kill anyone, I'm gonna be pretty disgusted. I'm also really sick of commercials for The Purge. /end rant.

I have felt for some time that the "sinner" referred to in the title is not the murderer in the police case, but Ambrose himself. But since both seasons have a religious component that affects the killers, I could be wrong. If there is a season 3, I hope they change the way they tell the story. They let plot twists and uncertainty of what's going on drive the story despite the rich psychology of the characters.

Did they know,k prior to getting him to open up and talk, that he was a possible murderer and not a possible victim who got away?

I started a re-watch myself to see if there were any hints and tidbits that I didn't really notice the first go-round. Then I decided I just don't care, and I stopped caring a couple of weeks ago. I want this to wrap up and be over. I wish they had done a 2 hour finale last week so that we don't have 1 more week and (most likely) a lot of rushed finishing to the details. IMO, they aren't doing this show very well. Too many questions with too few small resolutions and answers along the way to keep us engaged in the bigger mystery as a whole. I think they need to re-think the entire format for any future seasons, unless they hope to seel on DVD for binge watching as a primary goal

I don't see how they can wrap it all up in a one more hour. They've left too much hanging. They'll have to have a VERY tight episode for the finale without any filler. And I'm pretty sure I'm gonna be disappointed. They're going to have to resort to a lot of verbal exposition crammed in and it won't feel at all organic to the overall storytelling.

I'm wondering if that quarterback was Julain's father and the "grilfriend" he was visint was Marin.

Poor Julian... that kid's gonna need decades of therapy. Unless of course what Vera said in Ep 1 is true and that he is "so far beyond anything we could imagine" Whatever THAT means. The only person left for Marin to be phoning was the Beacon, right? Or Heather's Dad? Maybe he's known all along that she's been alive the whole time? Julians' father, who ever he might be, is the puzzle piece that will tie it all together.. we're supposed to be assuming it was the Beacon... which makes me suspicious that it wasn't. I'm still waiting for the tie in between Heather's mother's funeral 15 years ago and what they say about Vera when searching her background in Ep 2 or 3... Born in Texas, worked for Interlogic in the 90's, pops up in Oregon working for a non-profit, and then "nothing for the last 15 years.. she's a ghost". A lot of stuff happened 15 years ago. I think that was also when Carmen Bell's malpractice suit was filed. Heather ruined it all for Marin years ago... something happened between the 2 of them that they still haven't shown us. Marin is totally into Heather and the homosexual experimentation... and then she isn't. And then there's the classmate who hanged himself around the same time all this was going on after "visiting his girlfriend" at Mosswood. An offhand remark in ep1 that never comes up again. But in this series, nothing is a throwaway. Can't remember his name, because Marin also has a "Why can't I break up with Caleb?" line in our 1st scene with her.

They had some loud clank sound and the car broke down. I'm pretty sure we see that in the first ep. so I don't think it qualifies as a spoiler. I don't think we were ever told though exactly WHAT went wrong with the car.

In my rewatch of episode One, I realized that the Bess is standing in the spot where Adam was when he drank. Given julian's seemingly calm demeanor until Bess starts choking, I'm wondering now if Bess drank from Adam's cup as well as her own, and the kid was not expecting her to be affected because both mugs weren't poisoned. Despite Julian's claims over the various episodes that lying is not ok, when Ambrose asks him "To your parents?" (in response to Julian saying "I gave it to them") Julian answers "Yes", after much hesitation. He knows that Bess and Adam aren't his parents (doesn't he?) so either he is lying when he says he gave it to them, lying when he claims he gave it to his parents, KNOWS he is lying, or is it possible that Julian gave the Jimson weed tea to some other people he thought to be his parents at some other point in time? Could HE have killed the Beacon and/or Marin? We see the hooded figure as an adult, but perhaps that's because Julian sees the figure that way. Could the figure be Shadow Julian? Jack calls out "hey Jean, here's the Keller old boy I was talking about..." to someone walking down the street with a dog, but Jean is the woman at the restaurant and I'm pretty sure the person walking down the street is a man (in the closed captioning, it is spelled Jean, not Gene). Originally, I got the impression from Ep 1 that Jack was in early dementia stages. He "remembers" an explosion that Ambrose doesn't from school days. He remembers something else that Heather corrects him and says "Dad, that never happened". Also Heather seems to be doing basic shopping for him and reminds him he is almost out of this or that. We get several good looks at a painting in the motel room of a lake. Could it be Purple Lake?

I don't remember a call. Did we see the call or did Vera say there was a call? And if Vera sent Julian away, she would have prepared him for the fact that he was going. What reason would he have had for killing them? (Not that I'm convinced he did) Wasn't Bess already there when Julian was born? Wasn't she the other woman that was in scenes with Marin and Vera and the infant?

Why do you think vera sent Julian away? I think it far more likely that Bess and Adam took him without her knowledge. There would be no reason for him to be spirited away without any clothes if she sent him away herself. I'm not buying that "they forgot his bag" story. But I'm also having trouble reconciling Julian's ideas about lying with the fact that it seems he has lied during questioning since he was taken into custody. Maybe it's only been lies by omission though and those don't count.

or what "not that long" means.... a few days? A few months? A year? Something I sorta caught in my rewatch of the 1st couple of episodes, but can't remember now is that not only was Ambrose last visit to Keller 15 years ago wen Heather's mother died, but that something about the Mosswood thing happened 15 years ago as well... either that's when the cult bought the landd or that's when the corporate group started using it? Anyone remember? I really don't want to do a re-rewatch