[S03.E03: All Debts Paid]

10 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Did he stop revering BJR?  I don't remember that.   I remember that he encountered the ghost of the highlander, but I don't think he thought it was a ghost - at least at the time.  Maybe later he did, but I don't recall him believing it was a ghost in S1E1.  

 

In S1E1, he definitely thought the highlander was human, which led to that awkward conversation with Claire which pissed her off. However he did seem to feel that there was something odd about how quickly the man disappeared. I meant after she told him what happened. I have to rewatch and see if he makes a specific reference to highlander after her return. BTW, I think that Frank was correct in that conversation, and nothing she did make him love her less.

[S03.E03: All Debts Paid]

11 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Given that I don't think Frank believed Claire's story about the stones, I highly doubt the move was to specifically stop her from going back through them.  Ditto about not looking up Jamie.  I think Frank thought Claire was suffering from a delusion and he was trying to not feed into that delusion by having her not talk about it.  

This is interesting.  I always took it for granted that Frank believed Claire's story.  He had encountered the ghost of the highlander in the first episode, so he would have been predisposed to believe her.  Also, based on her story, he stopped revering BJR, which suggested that he believed what she said about him.  Of course, he could believe that the highlander was not a ghost but her real, modern-day lover Jamie and could have stopped researching BJR because she was so paranoid about him and he didn't want to feed it.  I'm going to have to think about this...

[S03.E03: All Debts Paid]

2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

BJR was not Frank's direct ancestor, his brother was.  So as it turned out, Claire didn't save Frank's life at all.  

She might still have saved his life.  If Mary had been an unwed mother, she might have lived in poverty and her child might not have survived to adulthood.  Or she might have taken her own life due to the shame.  Of course, we would never know if this were true.  But her actions did ensure that someone gave the baby who would be Frank's ancestor a name and sufficient food, etc. to grow up.

 

I don't think there is any evidence that Claire was a distant parent. We saw her take Bree to library last season, and she seems really attached to her. as a baby.  However, since she was a med student and resident, she was necessarily working longer hours than an established professor.  Plus, Claire is the stricter one (no car for you) and Frank is indulgent.  Frank also grew up with  traditional family and Claire was raised by a single uncle out on archaeological digs so he probably had more family rituals for holidays and stuff.  All these things serve to switch the traditional gender roles and characteristics., but that doesn't mean Claire was distant with Bree--just not like other mothers of the time.  Bree might resent that non-traditional behavior as a tween and teen, because children often do resent when their family is different from the norm, but come to respect it as an adult.

[S03.E03: All Debts Paid]

5 minutes ago, Hyla said:

This! Frank expected Claire to get over her experience and come back to him as she was before her disappearance and to love him the same way. Frank is book smart, but he's not perceptive about how people work and he doesn't credit Claire for surviving a life-shattering experience or show much interest in getting to know the person she's become.  

As other posters have said, if Claire didn't have to bury and deny her own experiences and could have been honest with Frank and their daughter they could have all shared a happier home life.

How awful if his motivation was spite and he'd been planning that move a long time.

The show went so quickly through Brianna's childhood and the breakfast and camera scene only did so much to illustrate her relationship to her parents. Was Claire absent a lot and did Frank step in and help out with homework and bedtime stories and such? Did he and Bree go places together and have a special bond? Did he make it clear to Brianna how long suffering he was and how disappointed he was with her mother so that Bree would feel closer and more loyal to him? 

If Bree went with Frank to England her dad would get her into Oxford and support her and possibly encourage her to settle down there. Claire's worked so hard to make a life for herself in Boston and intentionally leave England behind it would be a huge blow for her to lose access to her daughter so soon and with Bree being 18 she wouldn't be able to prevent it.

I'm not surprised she was angry in that scene. It really was low of Frank to want to take Brianna away from her. He should have filed for divorce years before instead of wallowing in resentment. 

I think that part of the reason Frank expected Claire to get over it was that he knew they had been happily married and in love before she disappeared.  I imagine it would be hard for him to understand why she wouldn't go back to that feeling in time.  (Honestly, I also had a hard time believing that, even though I love Jamie/Claire.) From Frank's perspective, Claire treated him as "out of sight, out of mind" when she was in the 18th century, so surely she could be the same way with Jamie now that she was back in the 20th century.

I didn't get the impression that he was trying to spiteful and take Brianna away.  He has always wanted to stay connected to England and wanted Brianna to be an English girl (e.g., his complaints about tea bags and pop tarts and objection to Claire taking US citizenship).   Frank is a historian and would naturally have a stornger bond to England than another person might. He wanted to go home and saw this also as an opportunity to take Brianna to England and absorb that culture .  However, he  was also a product of his time and saw the time Claire spent in med school and residency as caring less about her family than he did, which is not fair.  He probably got some pleasure (malicious or not) in knowing that Brianna was "daddy's girl" but that doesn't make him any different from most of the parents I know.

BTW, on my belated rewatch of Season 2, I saw that Willie got married and moved to America.  I like to think that he met/meets (the verb tenses of time travel are confusing) up again with Murtagh.   

[S03.E03: All Debts Paid]

55 minutes ago, Mrs. Hanson said:

I am the odd man out with the scenes from current day:  I liked them better than Jamie's scenes.  A lot of plot got moved forward in the Boston scenes.  Frank was really a dick about Bree's graduation dinner!  Go meet your side order at another cafe!

In all fairness, Sandy was only picking Frank up at the house because Claire was taking the car.  However, when the doorbell rang, he should have rushed to answer it.  He must have known she was arriving soon.  Plus, if you are going to have an affair with a married man, you really ought to be better at lying that Sandy was.  "Hi. I'm looking for the Smith residence.  Oh, this is not it?  My mistake."

Unrelated, but do we believe that John Grey was sent to this godforsaken prison because it's known that he's gay?  It didn't seem to stop what appears to be a rapid promotion process in the past 6 years but perhaps it has been recently discovered?

Also, I wanted to share this quote from the  New York Times that made me LOL.  "Grey has fulfilled his “Outlander” contractual obligation to grow up handsome, and as played by David Berry, gives Jamie a worthy foil."

[S03.E03: All Debts Paid]

7 hours ago, Daisy said:

I think i said this in episode one - i feel for both - but I don't feel for both at the same time because this is the bed they chose. I do think Frank was scuzzy-ish. I do think Claire tried to do her best to love him - but that wasn't enough for Frank (that's fair), she offers a divorce and he's like no because he won't see Bree. Claire says she'd never take her away from Frank and frank is like how can i trust that. Claire never broke a promise to Frank. why would she take Brianna away from Frank like that, only to basically sit there and be miserable with Sandy until Bree was 18. 

 

She might not intentionally take the child away, but if there are living in different homes, he would automatically see less of her.  It's a tough situation even in today's world where we have facetime and skype to help people stay in touch.

Just now, Chyna said:

My hearing isn't always the best so sometimes I have a little trouble understanding the characters in the Scotland flashbacks, so forgive me if this was obvious to everyone else: Why did Jamie return to the prison after escaping during the hunting party?

After hearing the story about the white witch on the island having some connection to BPC's treasure, he wanted to go look and see if it was Claire.  He escaped just for that reason and came back when he found no evidence of Claire.  In fact, he was unhappy enough that he wanted to be killed and asked John Grey to do so.

[S03.E03: All Debts Paid]

6 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

So Jamie's going to work at Downton Abbey now?

I can easily buy the sisters squabbling over Jamie!  ;)

*********************************

I actually cried quite a bit during this episode.  I hate to say it, but perhaps we are getting some really touching story lines and nuanced acting  this season because Claire and Jamie are forced to be apart.  The show cannot rely on romance and sex, so it has to dig deeper...

Frank's story was incredibly sad. He has been straightforward and true to his commitment to raising Brianna.  His devotion to the child is really quite moving.  And I think he's right that Brianna would have gone with him to England.  However, being in an unhappy marriage is terrible, and I'm glad that he was able to date.  Sandy must have really loved him too because they were secretly dating for at least 8 years (possibly longer).  I really wish Frank had been allowed to live happily ever after, but I guess that if he had lived, Claire would not have been able to tell Brianna about her biological father.  

On a related note, they mentioned this in the episode discussion.  Will put it in spoilers since some people may not want to get info outside of the episode.

Spoiler

Matthew Roberts mentioned that Tobias Menzies has wrapped up his role in the series.  I guess that his comment ends the debate about whether BJR died at Culloden.  Apparently, he did!

 

I'm glad Claire finally admitted she had loved Frank, but I wish she had said so while he was alive.  I agree that it was a jerk move to skip Claire's graduation dinner to hook up with his girlfriend, but Claire's anger was about her pride, not any sort of jealousy or love.  Claire has been a little unlikable this season, but that last scene with Frank brought her back for me.

I feel like zooming through her med school and residency years was a little bit of a waste though.  And they introduced her black classmate Joe Abernathy and didn't really do anything with him and their friendship.  Missed opportunity IMO and I hope they do something in future episodes.

I love the new character John William Grey.   Although he has grown up a lot since we last saw him, he seems to have remained honorable and decent.  I  liked that he refused to murder an unarmed prisoner. (BTW, the actor is very talented and handsome too.  I need to find out what else he's done.  For some reason, he's not listed in Outlander's IMDB entry for this episode.)  And I really  do believe that he would have improved prison conditions.  I wonder why he was exiled to this gloomy prison.  I hope we'll find out.  

I thought the development of his friendship with Jamie was well done too, despite being done during the course of just one episode.  When Jamie escaped from prison, my immediate reaction was that he had betrayed John Grey's trust in him.   It's amazing how quickly John won my sympathy--I thought of his honor before Jamie's freedom. But, of course, a prisoner would want to escape, regardless of how well he was being treated.   I'm glad we learned the truth about why he escaped and I'm glad he didn't really betray John.

By the way, is it just me or are the Englishmen disproportionately gay in this series?  John Grey, Duke of Sandringham, and BJR.  (BJR has had sex with men and women in the show --or has at least tried to.  However, he seems to desire Jamie but use sex as a power tool with Claire and Jenny, so I think he's gay, not bisexual.)  Whereas, I don't believe any of the Scots have been gay.  Is there a reason for that?  Anyway, John's story of his lost love was unexpected but moving.   The inability to say a final goodbye  worked well for an episode that also saw the death of Frank Randall.  Claire was able to have a final goodbye, but not to tell Frank what he needed to hear while he was still alive.  I'm glad that Jamie responded with anger at John's pass.  Even though there was a rapport between the 2 men, the touch would have generated an automatic response from the rape trauma.  Glad they didn't gloss that over.  It was a little strange that John made the pass right after hearing that Jamie really loved his wife.  Surely that would scream "he's not gay", but perhaps he was attracted by Jamie's vulnerability.

I do wish we had a better sense of the passage of time in Jamie's storyline.  We got it in Claire's part due to the aging of Brianna, but I couldn't tell if Jamie was meant to have spent months or years in prison.

Glad to see Murtagh survived Culloden, but was sad to see him separated again from Jamie.  Did I hear correctly that the prisoners were being shipped off to America or was that my imagination?  Murtagh literally clinging to a shred of his heritage in the form of his tartan really made me cry.  Amazing how a character with a couple minutes of screen time can make an impact.

I really wish I could just binge the whole season!

[S03.E02: Surrender]

I liked the slowish pace of this episode, because we got to see more characterization.  However, the difference in time passing between Jamie's and Claire's segments was a little strange.  I guess I expected to see them both 1 year after separation or 6 years.

Poor Fergus!  It's not enough that they had him be raped--now he has to have his hand cut off? I really wonder if he would have been better off living in the brothel and never having met Jamie and Claire.  On the other hand, his reckless and stubborn behavior makes him truly the child of Jamie and Claire!  He is just like them! 

Also, he seemed a little nonchalant about having his hand cut off...  I wonder if they will CGI him for the rest of the series or if they will come up with a way to get around it like the Golden Hand on Game of Thrones.

I do think it's interesting that the English Redcoats were fairly decent, but it was the Scottish Redcoat who was more hostile and violent--perhaps resulting from his guilt in joining the English?  It would be interesting to explore the POV of Scots who worked with the Brits, but it's unlikely to happen on this show.

Is it just me, or has Fergus's accent changed?  Perhaps that was meant to convey the passing of 6 years since leaving France.  In that case, I wonder if it might have been better to get a new actor.  As much as I love this one, he looks too young to play a 17 year old.  

BTW, Jenny had another child.  I wish they had shown her (I think it was a girl.) in the background somewhere.

Although I think it was the right thing for Jenny to do to turn in Jamie, I felt awful that she was forced to play the bad guy.   She knows about the scourging and the rape.  She'll spend the foreseeable future terrified for her little brother's safety.  The actress is really excellent.  I think she could be lead on her own show.

While I don't think it's out of character for Jenny to arrange for sex for Jamie (she seems a little bossy), wouldn't it be super awkward if Mary got pregnant?  Nowadays, out of wedlock pregnancies are a dime a dozen, but surely that would have been a huge risk.  

I am totally digging Mary McNabb.  She seems kind and she restored hot Jamie to us.  I'd be okay with Jamie marrying her.  We know that for at least 20 years (based on Briana's age) he won't see Claire again.  I  think he deserves a normalish life, even if she isn't his soulmate.  I think he would be a good father and it would be a pity if he didn't get to raise children.

I do like Claire and Frank having a fairly normal life (including sex) but I was just as annoyed as Frank that she was basically trying to use him.  I was really sorry to see it end in separate beds--even though we already knew that they were not a happy couple.

Claire's voiceover annoyed me a little--not as a device, but the content.  "I had been able to love a man and be part of something bigger than myself." Excuse me, but you've done that TWICE.  You loved Frank before going back in time AND you helped defeat the Nazis!  It pisses me off that she has forgotten that.  I get Jamie's behavior--she has been his only love.  But she should know that you can love more than once in a lifetime, even if only one of them is your soulmate.

Like @ElectricBoogaloo, the separate beds made no sense to me.  You can sleep in a bed with someone and not have sex,.  But twin beds seems to be 1) a waste of money since you already had a bed and 2) not fooling anyone.

I like that Claire started attending medical school and had a fellow outcast like Joe Abernathy.  She literally looked brighter (more luminous) in that class because she's the sort of person who thrives on learning and working.  I wonder what was considered worse by their fellow students, a black man or a woman?  I'm guessing, a woman.  I laughed when Joe walked into class and was visibly surprised that no one was staring at him because they were busy staring at Claire!  I did get an immediate reminder of Ellis Grey and Richard Webber from Grey's Anatomy, who I believe were in a similar position of being the only woman and black man in their med school.  I hope they won't have an affair, though, because it would annoy me if she could fall for another guy, but not Frank.

I do think it's cool that despite being a slower episode, I clearly had a lot to think about and express here....

[S03.E01: The Battle Joined]

12 hours ago, Daisy said:

I don't get why he would be? they are going to live in America. Their child would be a US Citizen, so i mean Claire (and Frank) being American would let them be able to vote etc that would impact their child's life. it seemed practical. and for Claire it was part of her whole argument of "new fresh start." 

That's the practical way of looking at it, but for many people, giving up the country of one's birth by changing citizenship is a much bigger deal.  It can feel like a betrayal of one's country, family, and history.

[S03.E01: The Battle Joined]

8 hours ago, taanja said:

I liked the scene of the flying ashtray smashing against the wall. I truly felt Clair's frustration. Before that Claire had mentioned she wanted to become an American citizen and Frank basically dismissed her. Period.  He shot her down and that was the end of that. The "husband" spoke and the wife must listen.

I didn't get the impression that he prevented her from becoming a US citizen, just that he was hurt and offended that she wanted to do so.

[S03.E01: The Battle Joined]

1 minute ago, Grashka said:

There was a huge conflict between Jamie and Claire when they were in Paris, caused by Claire wanting to spare Black Jack so Frank would be born down the line. She also managed to spoil a marriage between Mary and Alex, Black Jack's brother, because she wanted to ensure that Mary would marry Jonathan and their son - Frank's ancestor - would be born. IMO Frank was still on her mind even though she was in love with Jamie.

Good point.  I forgot that.  Clearly a rewatch of season 2 is in order.  I was thinking about how, after spending 8 episodes trying to get back to the future, she made the decision to stay in the past without any really thought of Frank.  (I'm still annoyed that there was not more angst in that decision.)

[S03.E01: The Battle Joined]

Since they decided to move Outlander to Sunday night, which I hate, I decided to watch the show earlier on On Demand.  The downside is that my fellow posters probably won't engage until hours  later.  :(

 

First of all, I loved the episode.  I enjoyed it much more than the Season 2 opener.

• The depiction of war was well done IMO.  The pileup of dead bodies was horrifying but realistic, given that battles were fought closely among the men, not at a distance.  The decision show brief glimpses of the war allowed us to understand the horror without showing too much gore.
• The executions were also chilling.  I am so glad that Lord Melton gave the men a soldier's death of firing squad rather than a criminal's death of hanging and that he would not shoot them lying down. Perhaps the first kind English soldier since Lieutenant Jeremy Foster.   I know that dead is dead, but dignity matters IMO.  
• I liked that Rupert got a major role in the episode and had a good on-screen farewell.  The way he provided leadership to the doomed Scots was really moving.  I confess that I teared up quite a bit.  Also glad that he and Jamie didn't leave in anger like they did last season.
• Since we didn't see Murtagh die, I assume he'll pop up again.  I guess he showed up just to remind us that the Fraser men were sent home.  I would have like to see Fergus when Jamie showed up in Lallybroch, but I hope he'll turn up in the future.
• I did not do a binge of last season, so I had forgotten about BPC's "Mark me" and how annoying it was.  I was a little surprised they didn't show BPC's escape (given that the theme song is based on that), but at least they had a line about the English unable to find him.
• I wonder if the decision to charge was the right one or if the one who advised waiting for the English to come to them was wiser?  I guess we'll never know...
• Speaking of English, was it just me who thought it strange that Rupert referred to "the British" and not "the English"?
• Battle between Jaime and BJR was awesome!  Once I realized that was him lying in Jamie, that freaked me out a little.   But I'm not sure we can assume that he died, despite the serious wound to the stomach, since we didn't see him with his eyes open (the one sure sign of death in TV and movies).  At first, I was a little surprised that BJR was a match for Jamie, given the difference in size, but I guess that BJR is a professional soldier.
• How much do I love Tobias Menzies?  Once again, a fantastic delivery in both roles.  But leave your American accent at home, Toby.  That was appalling!  :)
• I felt terrible for Frank Randall.  He really loves Claire and she was just kinda mean to him.  I'm glad she acknowledged that, and I was annoyed when the nurse  unknowingly screwed up that awesome rapprochement moment at the end.
• I wonder how much of Claire's anger at Frank is due to missing Jamie and the guilt of surviving when he "died at Culloden" vs. guilt for having abandoned Frank. Really, after the incident when she went to Craigh na Dun and was captured by the English, she never really gave another thought  to Frank.   And it appears that he never moved on from her.
• I think that Claire is going to create trouble for Frank with his boss.  Clearly, that man is a horrible, misogynistic blowhard--but you have to be tactful when dealing with the department head, especially when you're new to a country and a job.  And we know that Claire is not exactly known for keeping her mouth shut.  Luckily 1947 Boston  doesn't have witch trials, but perhaps she will run up against Joseph McCarthy (who happens to be a descendant of Father Bain) and be accused of being a Communist.
• Was I the only one who half expected that gas stove to explode, based on how much trouble Claire was having lighting it?
• I liked that Claire's neighbor reminded her that taking help from others is not a sign of weakness.  That was a good lesson for me too!  :)
• Okay, did doctors really put women under during childbirth? WTF!  How were they supposed to push?  I appreciate that they didn't forget about Claire's first child.  Some shows are awful about that type of continuity.  (I'm looking at you, Game of Thrones.)

[S04.E01: Game]

Love this show!!!  

I was a little surprised that Morse gave Trewlove the diary to read. Doesn't Morse speak French?  IIRC he was in the French Foreign Legion after leaving Oxford and before joining the police force.

Also, Joan not bothering to send her parents a postcard to let them know she's okay seems like a really awful thing to do.  I hope that gets resolved.

[Season 3 Discussion]

16 hours ago, riverwind said:

I really enjoyed the finale. It ended with things finally resolved for Sydney. I love his character in the show, he is so gentle  and kind. I feel like he has been so tortured with his love for Amanda and his faith. I keep going back to season one when he goes to Amanda's engagement party and he has been drinking and he tries to convey something to her, but she just dismisses him and I think he has a scuffle with someone and end up on the floor.

 

he just didn't care about him and then suddenly she did. I love when Mrs. McGuire said you'll get over your first love, we all do.

I don't agree that she didn't care about him.  I thought it was obvious from the first scene at the pond that she was in love with him.  He didn't ask her to marry him, and I think she was waiting for him to do so.  (Whether she would have actually married him instead of Guy is up for debate.)  When he finally asks her to run away with him, she was already engaged and so they switch back into pretending they're just friends.  By the time her engagement party happened, she probably thought it was "too late" to change her mind.  It was really inappropriate of him to get drunk and create a scene and it was pretty awful of her to allow Guy to suggest that Sidney marry them.  It's a pity they couldn't just have spoken more openly to each other, but I guess such things were not done.

That being said, you do get over your first love.  I assume they both will too.

[Season 3 Discussion]

I guess I am in the minority of viewers that really like Sidney and Amanda together.  They both seemed genuinely happy together, but I agree that it had to end for the premise of the show to continue.  But it did make me sad...And by the way, some of their scenes were super hot for Masterpiece!

This season has not reflected well on Sidney.  I was pretty horrified at his rude behavior to the Archdeacon, who was quite right to point out in the inappropriateness of Sidney's behavior.  (And while I don't agree with his stance on homosexuality, from the Church's perspective, he was right to talk to Leonard. too) And leaving right after Leonard's suicide attempt was downright irresponsible, even though he was trying to track down Mrs. M's money.  At the very least, he should have told Amanda what happened and asked her to keep an eye on Leonard.  (She's really the only one of whom he could make that request.  Geordie might have had to arrest him and Mrs. M is sometimes too rigid.)

I think everyone's being a little too harsh on Amanda.  She made a bad choice in marrying Guy and a worse one by continuing to meet Sidney (platonically) after her marriage.  However, she seemed to be trying to minimize the impact on others of her decision to leave Guy.  She won't let her aunt suffer financially, she refuses to paint Guy as an abuser to make it easier to get a divorce, and she's willing to "rent a cottage" without involving Sidney in order to establish herself as an adulterer.  Her frustration with Sidney is natural.  He ran off without telling her a word and then left her waiting for hours in the apartment.  I think her saying, "what about Grace?" was absolutely right on.  She has a child now, and she has to think of Grace's interests first--she cannot allow Sidney to flit in and out of a father figure role as he pleases.  I do hope that Amanda stays in the show somehow, even if the romance story line is done.

I was really happy to see Mrs. M evolve, particularly as it related to helping Amanda (and later, the 2nd Mrs. M) and becoming more compassionate.  It was well plotted and well acted.  I'm so thrilled to see her married.

Leonard's story line was the most heartbreaking.  He seemed quite fond of his fiancee, but of course it would have been a disastrous marriage.  Even though Sidney was being a little harsh, I think his "tough love" approach ultimately did help Leonard.  But I continue to be afraid for Leonard's future.  IIRC, they were still jailing gay men back then.  On the other hand, his growth as a clergyman has been a pleasure to watch--rescuing Amanda, helping deliver her child, trying to calm down the robber, etc.

[S06.E12: America First]

2 hours ago, attica said:

I was most worried when Saul was in the visiting room with Dar. Don't give him a writing implement, Saul!!! Haven't you learned your lesson about giving people sharpened pointed things in interview rooms?! Argh!

I KNOW! I had the exact same reaction.

[S06.E12: America First]

2 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

How did Saul survive the car bombing? Wasn't he in on the first two cars that were blown up?

Saul was in the first car and it was the second one with the African American young man who was COS that was blown up. 

[S06.E12: America First]

2 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

I am very sad to see Peter Quinn gone... but that is not my issue with this season's finale. It was convoluted and layered with confusing intrigue. Who is this mysterious student Dar wants Saul to visit? Peter Quinn's long lost twin brother? Good way to bring back Rupert Friend.  

Who were the traitors dressed in camo who orchestrated a hit on the PEOTUS? Who was the kid in the photos that Carrie was looking at? Plus, the President's expression at the end makes me feel she may be a spy who won the election. 

Homeland probably will not be back until November 2018. So on to other shows that have more satisfying closure. 

 

2 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

Maybe that is "the student" Dar told Saul to visit. 

I don't think so. It seemed more put in to show Saul's reaction, or lack thereof, to Dar being gay. 

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I know that Homeland is going to sell it as Dar being right about Keane, but the way I see it, he and his conspirators basically validated her opinions about the intelligence services and created the situation where she got the power to expand the Patriot Act so she could take action against them. If Dar had listened to Saul when he told him that they would have to work with Keane and guide her when she is wrong, none of this would have happened.

They created the monster. She went to the exact opposite extreme of what they feared.

10 minutes ago, Artsda said:

Quinn. :(( He died saving a life he probably shouldn't have saved. He deserved a better ending. 

I think he was still right to save her. IMO, she only became dark because of the assassination ordeal. Dar probably sensed her weather vane attitudes, but I doubt she was a tyrant to begin with.

As much as I liked Quinn, I am glad they killed him. He had suffered enough. And I am glad the public knew he was a hero. I was hoping that Dar would die for Quinn, but the jail scene was pretty good too.  He looked pretty good for a prisoner. Perhaps he got some credit for warning Carrie and saving the president's life.

I was hoping for an assassination of the troll guy, but no such luck.

Looking forward to next season. I wonder if Linus Roache will be the next Big Bad.

[S01.E07: You Get What You Need]

6 hours ago, KaleyFirefly said:

I'll post my book comments in the book thread...

I thought it was unrealistic, at that point, that Celeste was still going to go to the party with Perry. She looked so terrified for her life after he found out about the apartment. He easily could have killed her in the car.

I actually thought it was very realistic. She looked like she was walking to her execution as they went to the car. I think it was a combination of fatalism and trying to keep things normal so that Perry wouldn't lose it. I was screaming at the television when she told him she was leaving him, rather than pretending to give him another chance. But perhaps she's not good at lying to him.

Comments above question why the ladies lie. I  think there are a few reasons: to protect Celeste from prosecution since the abuse history is undocumented; to protect the children if Perry's behavior has to be publicly shared; to protect Jane because her role might be considered premeditated; to protect Bonnie whose history of domestic violence might make it look like she deliberately pushed Perry down the stairs; to keep any healing/recovery private; to avoid involving Renata, Celeste and Jane from any scandal that might hurt their careers; and just plain panic. I suspect Madeline of orchestrating the lie, and we have seen her in the past not think of the ramifications of her actions  (finding Saxon Baker, the affair). I can see her following her first instincts of covering up the truth without realizing that it would make the police more suspicious. 

[S01.E07: You Get What You Need]

1 minute ago, Penman61 said:

Why did Reese think and say Dreamy Barista Guy (DBG) was gay?  Do straight guys use that to keep the MILFs at bay?

My impression was that because he didn't hit on her she assumed he was gay.

Loved this episode, especially Ed's song as a backdrop to the scene. I really thought Celeste was a goner several times. Felt a little sorry for Renata's husband -- she clearly did not keep him in the loop regarding discussion with Jane. Smiled at how happy Ziggy was to see his mom go on a date.

[S01.E06: Burning Love]

23 minutes ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

I rewatched in slow motion but can't figure out how Jane's shove resulted in Renata's eye injury.  Also, wouldn't this be a really reckless move by Jane? Now she has given everyone a reason to conclude, "Oh, Jane is violent, no wonder Ziggy is bullying Amabella."

But Jane has shown us before that she is reckless-- with her smoking pot while driving, confronting and sniffing Saxon Baker, sleeping with a gun, etc.

8 minutes ago, mojoween said:

I really don't even see how Bonnie and Nathan ever got together.  They are nothing alike.

I think she represents how he wants to see himself.

[S01.E06: Burning Love]

Is it possible that the "therapy sessions"  (just the ones with Celeste by herself, not the original one with Perry) are Celeste talking to herself and convincing herself to face the truth?  That would explain why the "therapist" is so pushy.

[S01.E06: Burning Love]

1 hour ago, susannot said:

The conversation between Celeste and therapist so perfectly illustrated the honeymoon to psycho period in the chart posted by (I think) CinCincy last week.

That was exactly what I was thinking.  I have to give a shout out to all the people commenting on this site regarding Celeste and Renata.  You all have been spot on.  I laughed for a moment wondering if any of you are writers for the show!  You're not, are you? ;)

Man, Celeste is not allowed to have friends, is she?  

57 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

So now I am having doubts that there will be some great revelation about Abigail and Ed.  Sure, this show could surprise me next week but I didn't get a hint of that this week and I think if the show were trying to hint at something, they would have done so this week. I'm torn about Madeline telling Abigail about the affair.  On one hand, it's a good way to show Abigail that she's human and the advice is from experience.  On the other hand, she hasn't told Ed yet has she?

I appreciate the show telegraphing the vomit because I hate vomit on TV.  But the close ups of the fish and the oysters after that big "secret project" reveal let me know what was going to happen.  As for her being pregnant, I don't think so.  The affair was a year ago, right?  And I didn't think they slept together again recently.

The therapy session was great this week, as usual, although I don't know that a therapist would be that pushy in terms of what Celeste needs to do, especially knowing that danger awaits. But I did like that scene because it went through the uphill battle leaving an abuser, especially one with means, can be.  Walk away easily with custody?  Not bloody likely.

First of all--show, you got me.  I never would have guessed the virginity auction in a million years; so, well done.  I did wonder after that reveal if Ed had worked on Abigail's website--he is a web designer.  It may have been inadvertent, and Abigail may have said she wanted to auction "something" for charity. His reaction wasn't as shocked as I would have expected, certainly not compared to Madeline's vomiting.  Even Nathan yelling "Abigail!!!" off-screen was stronger.  BTW, that yell and going after her computer + his passive aggressive cereal eating were the only times I've liked Nathan all season.   Bonnie's blase attitude might have been more of an attempt to keep Nathan calm than an actual disinterested attitude.  

I loved that Madeline revealed the truth to Abigail and was genuinely sorry for it having happened.  (There was a lot of truth-telling in this episode and it was all good IMO.) I hope Abigail listens and stops the auction.  

I think that Madeline is a little bit of an unreliable narrator when it comes to the affair, so I wouldn't take pregnancy completely off the table.

The therapist was pushy, but she feels that she is literally saving Celeste's life by doing so, and she probably thinks that's an acceptable reason to behave unprofessionally.  My concern is that now Perry is the first one to have a spouse-inflicted injury on the record.  I hope he doesn't try to use it as a way to manipulate Celeste.  BTW, I was hoping that when the psychiatrist told her to tell someone that she was going to open up to Jane.

56 minutes ago, stagmania said:

I got the impression that Ed knows, and would prefer not to hear any details or really confront his knowledge at all, thus him asking Madeline to stop confessing. But you're right that it may still bite her in other ways-Abigail is unpredictable and I don't put it past her to use it against her mom when the opportunity strikes.

I think Ed knows of the affair, but he may not have known until the accident who it was.  

26 minutes ago, susannot said:

I don't at all think Bonnie was OK with it.  I mean,think of the range of adult reactions to the news that your 16 year old daughter is auctioning off her virginity on the Internet.  All of which were shown tonight.  For this particular girl, I would be inclined to believe that it is performance art and a way of getting attention.  I would let it be known that this will never happen, cops will be called, etc. I don't think her mother's projectile vomiting or her father's seizure of her laptop were the right way to handle the situation, although it's hard to walk a mile in their shoes and I  might have done the same thing. However, I had a son, who was never motivated to do extreme things to draw attention to himself. 

I don't think Abigail is trying to draw attention to herself.  I believe her motives are pure, but this is a ridiculous way to get the job done.  She might sell her virginity and get $50k for the cause.  However, convincing her parents to do an annual fundraiser, volunteering while she is in school, and becoming a human rights lawyer are all ways she can make an ongoing impact.

I loved the Jane/Renata confrontation and subsequent detente.  I think it was genuine on both sides.  It was smart of Jane to show empathy for Renata and to share the findings of the therapist.  Renata reminded me of a colleague.  She was very aggressive with me and I was polite with her.  Finally, I had enough and fought back and she then respected me enough to have a normal conversation.  Jane being aggressive right back but following up with compassion might have been the right way to deal with Renata.

[S06.E10: The Flag House]

First of all, I don't know how I'm supposed to get into the right mental state for the work week when Sunday night television is so riveting...

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

Oh Max, why didn't you listen to Carrie? It isn't looking good for you. Dar didn't look happy that the guy is creating a smear campaign aginst Quinn. No doubt Dar will turn against his allies because of it.

I know.  I thought Dar would spot Max.  He didn't, but it's just as bad.  Glad he got the message out to Carrie/Saul.  I do like the idea of Dar objecting to the Quinn smear campaign.  Gives me a glimmer of hope about Dar.  Perhaps he'll die (and, yes, he must die) sacrificing himself for Quinn.  

37 minutes ago, attica said:

"Hey, Mira, I'm telling you where I'm disappearing to, so don't tell anybody else!" That seems....like bad tradecraft. I mean, he could have told her about all the techniques they'd use to get her to talk, without confirming where he'd go. Or, he could go somewhere else she doesn't know about. Now, of course, all of this is moot, but, jeez. Saul's a good spy. Let's stop making him suck at this.

WALL OF CRAZY IS BACK! I was even happier to see it than Saul was!

I thought that maybe he was feeding Mira wrong information so that she would seem genuine when giving that info to the Feds. I do like that she talked him out of running away. 

I laughed at the pride in Saul's face when he realized that Carrie was connecting the dots.

It's strange, but of all the bad things Dar has done, smearing PEOTUS's son has made me the angriest.  We never even met the guy, but that's the thing for which I most want Dar to pay.  

I really enjoyed Saul's attempt to shake any tails.  I watched that part through my hands, because I was a little worried that he might be assassinated.  It's the time in the lifecycle of a TV series for another main character to die--Brody was season 3.  

Quinn  mentoring the young boy "next time, ask for half up front" made me chuckle!

[The Catch - General Discussion]

I was just thinking that Danny should sleep with Margot (because Sophie was annoying me) and boom!  Not that the 2 characters have any chemistry, but I feel like Danny gets overlooked more than he should and deserves some attention.  Sophie is free to do what she wants, but I feel like she deliberately flaunts the attention of other men in front of someone she knows likes her.  Perhaps she's just used to being the center of attention-- she is quite beautiful and smart.  I don't blame her for being frightened after being almost shot and wondering why Danny wasn't there for her.  But she could have given him the benefit of the doubt. And then she accused him of slut-shaming her, which is silly.  There is a difference between slut-shaming and being bummed that the person you like hooked up with someone else.  I also thought it was odd for Alice and Valerie to be joking about the earrings Sophie received, when it's obvious that Danny likes her.  They could have shown more tact and sympathy for how upset he'd be. 

I am enjoying the addition of Alice's brother and Justine Diaz (partially because I like TR Knight and LOVE Gina Torres) but whatever became of Jules Dao?  I also think Valerie needs a bigger role and an interesting arc. I miss the case of the week -- in addition to the overarching story, not instead of it.

I think the biggest issue with this show is Peter Krause.  I'm a big fan of his, but he seems to be unable to stop smiling--which is distracting in some situations. He needs to be a little more mysterious for this show to work.