Mathius

Those three cooperate with each other all by themselves? Really!? Given that this is completely unrealistic a scenario, it doesn't count. No Emma = no success in Neverland. I would argue Emma was still presented as the main character in 2A and 3A, even if her development arc in both wasn't as consistently highlighted as in S1. It's only 2B and 3B where it became a full-on Regina Show.

John and Michael are almost definitely behind that name: the "home office" is a segment of the British government dealing with militant force against illegal aliens, in this case "illegal aliens" being magic and magical beings crossing over into the Land Without Magic. It's actually pretty clever, but Greg and Tamara saying it just ruins it. QFT. This is why S1 and 3A are the show's strongest thusfar.

This and "The New Neverland" suffer the same flaw: a boring Snowing fairyback that adds NOTHING and has slim to NO bearing on the present-day plot. I definitely agree that a full Emma flashback about her childhood would have been so much more effective.

Disagreed completely. It may have not gone the way you wanted and expected it to, but the fact remained that the core characters and their relationships WAS the central focus throughout Season 3....well, in 3a and the 3b finale anyway. Between then, Regina and Zelena's feud ate up the screentime, with some assorted Emma-Hook moments on the side.

But that's the thing: he DIDN'T continue with similar tactics, at least not with Emma's group. The Echo Cave gambit was his last effort on them, hoping their secrets would destroy each other. When that failed, he went "fuck it" and decided to accelerate his mind games only on the one they'd been proving successful with: Henry. And because he was successful with Henry, he almost won in the end. He lost because he underestimated Emma and Regina as mothers. And THEN he rebounded, using what he learned from his defeat AGAINST Regina. Overall despite his motto, Peter Pan DID fail, but it was definitely not from a lack of trying.

Your data is not entirely accurate: to be specific, Regina had MUCH more than "one or two" other fairybacks where she played a big role in S1, Regina had four centrics (2x02, 2x05, 2x17, and 2x20) and two "shared" (2x09 and 2x10...two in a row!) in S2, and Snowing (mainly Snow) had three non-centric fairybacks featuring them in S2 (2x07, 2x10, and 2x20).

But this isn't a normal decent person with a conscience, this is CAPTAIN HOOK. For HIM to take such an action actually was a big deal and was indeed the first glimpse into seeing that he could potentially become a hero, since he had nothing to lose by just sailing off with the bean and using it, yet he came back anyway.

Relevant: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mUu0uMjt_qE

They are owed a happy ending because they ARE the perpetual victims and yet still continue to strive to do GOOD in spite of it, instead of whining and doing evil, using their victimization as an excuse. Their happy endings aren't a case of entitlement, it's a case of them having EARNED them. If Kitsis had said "she's the character who has caused the most harm to others, but has also caused the most harm to herself", THAT would be agreeable. As it stands, the line makes no sense. You're right about Rumple, but Hook? "The Jolly Roger" showed that he feels remorse for bad things he's done and wants to change and make amends when Emma has nothing to do with it. And more to the point, the season 3 finale showed that he will always be willing to help Emma even if she ISN'T dating / sleeping with him. His "I'd go to the ends of the Earth for her" line happened BEFORE she decided to get into a relationship with him. If she breaks up with him, he's not going to go back to evil, he'll still love her and fight to help her no matter what. I think it's really nonsensical that you put redemption in quotations for Hook, as if to say it's not valid, when you continue to ignore everyone's points about the fallacy of Regina's "redemption" and how, unlike Hook, we HAVEN'T gotten any evidence that she'd still do good and help out if things didn't go the way she wants them to...in fact, we have evidence to the contrary with the recent S4 sneak-peek. And then that "growth" was undermined when she threatened to crush Zelena's heart and kill her if she dared to stray from that second chance even once, which is unfair and hypocritical given that Regina has strayed DOZENS of times, to the point that saying Regina got a "second chance" is laughable, since it's more like her seventh or eighth chance. Well by THAT logic, Snow didn't kill Cora. Regina did. Yet Snow is still blamed for the "murder" (Regina even says "you have a less damaging relationship with my mother than I did, and you killed her!") and made to apologize. So why isn't Regina held to that same standard? She manipulated the Genie into killing Leo and gave him the murder weapon. She is just as responsible as Snow is for manipulating her into killing Cora. Really, Snow should have LESS reason to apologize since she was delivering karmic retribution to Regina for killing Leo, and unlike Leo, Cora was a dangerous murderer who needed to die.

according to interviews.

Agreed on all counts but two: I wouldn't consider the Ashely episode "filler" at all since this is when Emma ends up owing Gold a favor, which is what ultimately reunites him with Baelfire/Neal, so that's a pretty major plot point. And I wouldn't say the middle is entirely boring: 1x08, 1x10, 1x12, 1x15 and 1x16 are all still great to watch, IMO, even when you know the outcome of the murder case (yes, the fairybacks are the main attraction in all of these, but I personally enjoy the Storybrooke stuff too.) 1x09, 1x11, 1x13 and 1x14 are all pretty lame, though.

"Wanted" nothing; he was literally JUST about to drop the baby in a freezing well when the church archdeacon stopped him. So yeah, Disney's Frollo is a definite match for Evil Queen Regina's level of evil.

Not really. Aside from his past connection with Anna and Elsa, everything we've heard about him in the present situation is about his relationship with Belle. As usual, I think the Frozen arc will mostly focus on Emma and Regina. Blasphemy! It's JAFAR, if he wasn't over the top then the actor wouldn't be doing his job right!

S1, 2A and 3A are all generally pretty strong, IMHO. It's really just 2B and 3B that suck, though I'm not hopeful for S4.

No, it's "A Helping Hook" and "A Helping Hook 2". Note the "2." And I can't help but suspect that info source is leaving out commentaries for the other two discs, which would most likely be Adam & Eddy for "Going Home" and "There's No Place Like Home".

No, they've said Pan is dead. And where did they ever say Rumple was "frozen somewhere"? Because I don't recall seeing it, and he wasn't frozen anywhere in the show either. He was dead until Neal stupidly sacrificed himself to bring him back. Exactly. He had the power to kill them all easily, but he was such a narcissist who was so convinced that he'd "never fail" anyway (as was the Pan from the original story) that he figured why not keep them around as his playthings? They were literally just something to keep himself entertained between being hard at work getting Henry to believe in him, using their own issues to block them from making progress in saving Henry not because he thought there was any threat of them doing so, but because it was FUN for him.I don't miss Pan, since he would have definitely worn out his welcome if he had stayed beyond his arc, but boy was he great while he lasted. I know you're referencing Amara with that line, but that reminds me: Jafar! He would actually be PERFECT as a recurring villain on the show because he's a genie now, which means he can serve whichever big bad ends up in possession of him (or, whenever things needs to be switched around, he can serve the heroes against his will if they get ahold of him). Plus his personal backstory and issues stemming from them have already been dealt with in the spin-off, so the show wouldn't need to spend any needless time on that either.

He didn't fully forgive him, he even said "I'm still angry". He was just willing to give him a chance now...which Rumple promptly blew by hanging out with Lacey and beating down Dr. Whale. Yeeeeah, their relationship did kind of suck in how it was written. Perhaps, but the Neverland story as a whole (not just the Charmings' part in it) and its episodes. 3B not following up on them well hurts them when looked at in the grand scheme of the entire series, but looked at as just something of a miniseries in of itself, it's pretty good. Only Season 1 is better than 3A, IMO, so that's why I actually must defend Kitsis saying he thinks the arc was some of their best stuff. It's "Nasty Habits" (you're confusing the title with "Think Lovely Thoughts"), and I disagree. As I said before, it has a great performance face-off between Carlyle and Kay, and necessary foreshadowing for Pan's true identity. Plus, the Pan = Pied Piper angle was too perfect an idea to pass up, and despite how jarringly older he sounded, I was glad to see Dylan Schmidt again. I'd get rid of the dumbass Medusa fairyback in "The New Neverland" instead. It's bad enough that it came after the stupid "Save Henry" fairyback, but it was one of THE most useless fairybacks in the series with little to no connection whatsoever to what was currently going on. And Medusa herself was one of the worst CGI creations the show has ever put on screen. The flying monkeys coming only a few episodes later just reinforced how lame she was by comparison. Agreed about the ratings (to be specific, the big audience drop off came in Season 2B, not between seasons. No further drop off has happened since then, thankfully, just less of the audience watching it live.) But I do feel I must point out that Pan and Regina's cases are different: Pan literally regrets nothing. That's why he was safe by that tree. Regina DOES have regrets, which is why the tree bound her at first, but she can banish them from her mind easily, because both her regrets AND her lack of regrets are tied to her own selfishness. She regrets her evil actions when they cause her to suffer (when she isn't passing the blame to someone else, anyway), but she doesn't regret them when they benefit her. What she did at the tree was stop thinking about everything she lost because of her evil actions and only fixate on what she got out of them: Henry. The line isn't even "No Regrets", but something that matches the situation more: "I should be overflowing with regret, but...I'm not. Because it got me my son!" Neverland was everyone's arc. Rumple had a significant part in it, but he wasn't the focus, and his development arc happened every other episode (2, 4, 6, 8, 10/11) rather than all of them. Again, if we're being more specific, it's 2B that lost it. 2A actually pulled S1 numbers in the ratings, since it had generally better writing and an ongoing setup...which got resolved at the end in "Queen of Hearts", and that's when it all went downhill. If you look at the ratings and how they fell, you would see that "The Cricket Game", "The Outsider" and "In the Name of the Brother" were a three-strikes you're-out deal; a huge percentage of the audience dropped out due to those three episodes alone. Because there just was no ongoing setup anymore, it was random plot stuff happening very quickly with little time to breathe and characters suffering from it. No wonder so many people didn't come back for "Tiny"! Hook I'll give you (I liked seeing his backstory as Lt. Jones, but I wanted to hear more about what he did in Pan's services in Neverland and how he reconnected with Baelfire), but the Little Mermaid made perfect sense since they had just finally introduced mermaids to the show at the start of the arc, and the Lost Boys as a metaphor for Emma was already explored in "Lost Girl" and brought to a natural conclusion in "Save Henry" (the lost child all grown up leads the other lost children home). Exploring that any more would be hammering in a point the audience should already get by now. I worry about this too. It worked with Pan because there was a justified reason for the wheel spinning: he was stalling them with all their past issues and insecurities, and they had to work through them before they could actually save Henry. It was a clever way of dealing with the fact that S2 completely dropped the ball when it came to dealing with the characters' issues. But Zelena? Just what the Hell was their excuse? In both the forgotten past year AND the present, the heroes' wheel spinning was just because the heroes were being made into idiots who kept missing obvious things and potential solutions. It was particularly aggravating since Zelena just did not come off as the uber-powerful, uber-manipulative type that Rumple, Regina, Cora and Pan were, so it made very little sense why everyone was having this much trouble defeating her. Whoever 4A's villain is, I hope they don't repeat the same mistakes as with Zelena.

Snow wanting a baby alone isn't character development, but being able to admit it and actually pursue it is. For so long she'd been rather cloying toward Emma and trying to build an ideal mother-child relationship that just wasn't ever going to happen. For her to finally admit to herself and to everyone else the honest truth (that her relationship with Emma, while special, isn't what she wanted when she first had Emma as a baby) and decided upon pursuing it...that was a step forward.Charming got development because he temporarily regressed in a believable way. In Neverland, a strength of his character as Charming: that he is willing to protect his family and do good at any cost, actually gave way to him falling back into one of his weaknesses as David Nolan: not being open and honest with Snow. By the end of Season 2, Charming had become too perfect. He needed this reminder that he was still fallible, so as to better monitor his own behavior in the future. (Plus, he formed a bromance with Hook, who he just plain hated in Season 2. That counts, right?) For Neal, the most obvious development is his reconciliation with his father. Even if Rumple helped save Henry, Neal had every right and reason to still not forgive him, and we know how long he's carried a grudge. But he chose forgiveness at last instead of perpetuating a cycle. The other development concerns Emma. In Echo Cave, he was finally, literally faced with all the pain he'd caused her, and his efforts to make it up to her afterward (though usually misguided) were sincere. Contrast to his smug, brush-it-off douchiness in Season 2. That episode with Ariel and the Darling Hipsters was what I meant by her development. Never said it was much, in fact it was one of the tiniest developments any character made, but it was something. Also, I liked No Regrets Regina. It was consistent with what we've seen of her: she regrets her actions when she's focused on how they've cost her things like in her talk with Tink, which is why the tree could grab her to start with, but those regrets all vanish whenever she fixates on what her actions GOT her. It's total selfishness, and at least in 3A she was open about it. OK, you're going to have to explain this one to me. How did the protagonists lack agency? Pan didn't set that many challenges against them to react to on his own, they were mostly reacting to their own issues that he played on. And once they overcame those issues, the entire rescue mission of Henry in "Dark Hollow", "Think Lovely Thoughts" and "Save Henry" consisted of actions they took. The following two episodes in Storybrooke relied on them being almost purely reactionary, yes, but the actual story in Neverland did not. Yes, that is the main development everyone shared in. You are correct.In retrospect, I really liked the slower pace. I just wish there was more time spent on crucial issues (like Charming family) than on pointless fairybacks. (Nasty Habits, Lost Girl and The New Neverland fairybacks.) The setting wasn't that exciting to me, either. I liked the pace too, and I agree about the fairybacks (except Nasty Habits...it may have been pointless in the grand scheme of things but it provided necessary foreshadowing to Pan's true identity, plus Robbie Kay and Robert Carlyle were just awesome in it). But I feel people complaining about the setting are missing the point: it had to be a rather boring, claustrophobic place because that's the kind of place where the characters have limited options to do anything but face each other and their own issues, which was desperately needed following Season 2. DING DING DING! We have a winner! The biggest problem with 3A was nothing that was actually IN 3A itself. It was that most of the developments it made for the characters were not followed through with in 3B, which they needed to be in order to make the season more cohesive. Off the top of my head, Hook is literally the only one I feel was given a good, natural continuation of his 3A development. Emma? The leadership role she grew into was totally discarded. Snow? Her actual feelings on having a new baby were sidelined and the baby was made a plot device. Charming? Had no further development outside of "The Tower", then he stagnated again. Neal? Dead. Belle? Nothing. Rumple? Made a believable and compelling regression only toward the very end, spending time before that just being there. Regina? Need we go into that? Emma had been pushing her mother away again and again. She never truly accepted her as a mother until the Season 3 finale (disregarding that time they all thought they were about to die in the Season 2 finale.) For Emma to complain to Snow about Snow finally accepting that Emma may never return her familial affections would be the height of hypocrisy, so no, I don't think a conversation was required at all. Emma was dealing with that emotional shit, but she was dealing with it on her own (and a little with Hook) in accordance to how her character still was at the time.There seems to be an Emma-bias when it comes to this issue. Yes, Snow hurt her emotionally and didn't seem sensitive about it after the fact, but Emma has been doing that to Snow for a long time now. Snow went back on what she said in "Lost Girl"? Emma went back on what she said in "Lady of the Lake", still blaming her parents for abandoning her and refusing to connect with them as a daughter because of that pain she stews in. This is a two-way street here. The present setting was already Neverland, and as seen above, many people didn't like that setting anyway and considered it boring. To give it even more screen time in an episode would have been unwise. This is funny, because I see many people complaining that this show is ignoring its own core cast in favor of playing with new "toys" like Zelena/Oz and the cast of Frozen. But evidently, if the core cast receives focus at the expense of new "toys" (the cast of Peter Pan), that's also bad.For all of their faults, I can't help but feel that Adam and Eddy are in a catch 22, as nothing they do is guaranteed to please everyone. As I said before, Season 1 may be looked on as the best now, but complaints of bad writing and such were everywhere back when it was actually airing. This factor never changes no matter how much the show does.

Seeing as the internet was, in fact, full of demands and complaints during Season 1 like "They're treading water! Nothing is happening! Too much filler and boring character conversations! Move the plot forward and get closer to breaking the curse!", I would see why they would think the internet demands it. There are many other people who agree that it was some of their best stuff. Similar to what I stated above, the internet is more diverse than just the circle of fans here on this forum, and there are just as many sites praising the Neverland arc as there are sites condeming it. As Kitsis said, it really is a matter of opinion, and I actually completely agree with him in this case. "It was character" meant it was full of character development, which is accurate. Unlike the following Zelena arc, the Neverland arc ensured every central character got a chance in the spotlight and received some sort of development, and left the arc changed from how they were when it started. Yes, it's true that some (Emma, Regina, Rumple, Hook) had more than others (Snow, Charming, Neal, Belle), but it was development all the same, and even side characters like Mulan and Tink had some.