cmr2014

The blond doesn't work with the beige. Even if it was a good color for her, the color combo of the hair, her natural skin tone, and the beige top is really not good.

I kind of think of Josh as being like some of the early rock starts (like Jerry Lee Lewis and Little Richard) minus the talent. They had a complicated relationship with religion being both extremely devout believers and alternately hedonistic rebels. My take on Josh has always been that he thinks he's too cool for school. In the early specials he always gave off the vibe to me that he was in on the joke, and that he believed that his parents were complete rubes. I think he swings between believing that he's a cool, modern guy who likes sex and porn, and being a devout believer in the real Jesus. I don't think he's ever going to completely fall into one camp ot the other.

I don't know that they would. They'd just say something like "Jesus called her home" and fail to acknowledge in any way that their poor decisions had anything to do with it. And, of course, if one of them gave COVID to another patient whose family wasn't so sanguine about "Jesus calling them home" just yet, they would be outraged if anyone called them on that.

I'm pretty sure Josh is the fat guy in the blue suit.

I think that's true of normal people, but not Duggars. Remember Jill wanting to sit on the same side of the booth as Derick even though it was only the two of them out for dinner? They believe that marriage means being literally and figuratively join at the hip 24/7. I don't think that most people would thrive in the kind of smothering marriages they talk about, but that's the expectation.

I agree that the "bestie" is Josh. They state this over and over and over and over that their spouse is their "best friend." They all do -- all the time. I find it really grating, and every time I hear it or see it, it's like fingernails on a chalk board. Anna has no friends, and that's 100% intentional on the part of her parents as members of that cult. It occurred to me that this might be a "road trip" in Anna's eyes because she's alone. I would guess that she seldom, if ever, goes anywhere alone. There is ALWAYS an "accountability partner" when they go anywhere. Anna may be numerically and physically an adult, but she's not a fully functional adult. She's lived her entire life in a cult that infantalizes women -- among the many exaples of that, the Holts reminded us that women can't be elders in their church. Other than sex and giving birth, women have no adult roles or responsibilities. Everything else she does: cooking, cleaning, laundry, child care, etc. can -- and often is -- done by children. I doubt it has ever been her responsibility to gas up her car, or balance her checkbook, or handle any type of home repair. In case of emergency, she would call Josh (now JB, I guess), but I don't think it would ever occur to her to handle it on her own. I don't think that Anna believes that she is a fully-functional and capable adult. I think that the idea that she could "get a job" is so completely outside her frame of reference that it doesn't even cross her mind. If it were to even cross her mind to divorce Josh, it would only be to marry a different fundie asshole and have more babies . . .

I question whether any of these people are taxpayers at all. I don't think JB has paid income tax in 30 years. I don't know what property taxes are like outside the city limits of Tontitown, but it wouldn't surprise me if he has some way to avoid those, too -- maybe as a religious institution? I don't think this is just a JB cheapness thing, either. I 100% believe that the Forsythe's are just as happy to play fast and loose with the definition of the "family camp." If Mr. Forsythe is even a fraction of the controlling asshole that JB is, he's on the school board to make sure that none of his $100/year goes toward sex education, or the teaching of evolution, or sports for girls, etc.

IMO, Jeremy doesn't "believe" anything. I think that's why he's attracted to MacArthur, and why MacArthur likes him -- he's an empty slate. I absolutely agree that he's saying what he thinks someone wants to hear -- in this case MacArthur, or one of his teachers. "Forgiveness" isn't a "Get Out of Jail Free" card, and Josh deserved to be prosecuted and jailed, but can still repent and be forgiven by God. I think that's it's probably a mistake in terms of his relationship to JB and the TTH to release something like this, but maybe that's the direction he's going. Maybe the visiting crew from the TTH spent a lot of time talking about Josh and forgiveness, and this is his response?

It's got to be an old picture, though, unless Jessa is pregnant again. I think they were very attracted to each other initially, but didn't really have much in common except over-the-top Jesus and a hatred ot Catholics. I think that the attraction has cooled over the years, and the "not really liking each other" has become more pronounced.

I think it's possible. TLC has zero morals, and if they thought they could make some $$$, I think they'd do another show. The problem, really, is that they're all super-boring and have nothing in their lives except religion. TLC is all about people they perceive as "freaks" and there is nothing unusual about any of these people except for their status as #x of 19. If one of them really did break away -- Jana, now an out and proud gay Unitarian, moves to NYC might warrant a special . . .

When has something being "none of their business" ever stopped any of them? I'm thinking more of a congratulatory message, rather than a birth announcement. Jana might post because she's the keeper of the Duggar family account (as I understand it). Jill might post because I think that's largely how she communicates with her siblings now. Amy might post because it would generate interest from her followers.

I find it hard to believe that any of them would have a baby with no announcement. Even if the parents don't have public social media, Jill or Jana, or even Amy, would certainly post something.

It should be, but the "not liking" has been around for a while, and Ivy and Fern have arrived anyway . . . It seems like it's impossible to convence any of them that the solution to all of life's problems isn't "more babies," but that seems to be the only tool in their toolkit (see Duggar, Anna). And, of course, when you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Brought this over from the Smuggar thread: This ties back to "prosperity gospel" which they all insist they don't follow, but which every single bit of evidence points to over and over again. JB believes that he is favored by God because he has money. As someone who is favored by God, he's obviously on the right path, and should double down and stay true to the path that has won him this favor. As one of God's favorites, he should also "guide" anyone in his orbit who is not following the same path. To wit: he becomes and insufferable asshat.

Taking my reply to Boob and j'Chelle

I agree about the cake. The issue isn't cake per se, but celebration. Most of us associate cake and ice cream with a child's birthday, but that isn't required. Ivy has no peers. She won't be going to birthday parties for anyone outside the cult any more than Jessa did, and won't have any expectations about the specifics of a celebration. I don't think the Amazon boxes/pillow cases have anything to do with waste or re-use or anything even remotely "green," it's something bone-lazy that has been re-labeled as "fun." It's exactly the sort of thing J'chelle would have done under the heading of "doing things a little differently," or "saving money." They all have a very tortured relationship with the idea of "children" and "childhood." The gen2 kids are all granted a free sloppy sundae and an extra 30 minutes of face time with their parents to make their birthdays "special," but Gothard is 100% about making sure children don't feel special at all. Children are expected to "do for" their parents, not the other way around. The main focus of the "celebration" is around the mother's pain and suffering in giving birth to the birthday boy/girl -- what fun! This may be one of the rare instances where Jessa wants something for her kids that she didn't have as a child, but she has no clue how to make that happen, or it may be something that Ben wants for his kids, and Jessa has stepped in and insisted on nothing "too special" and cut it back to cardboard boxes and pillow cases . . .

I kind of doubt the "spelling out Israel" thing. If they were doing that, it's just the kind of stupid, boring tidbit they'd share, and none of the gen2 Duggars (other than Anna) have shown any interest in creating a naming gimmick for their kids. I think that they probably just like the -el names. I, personally, like them, and also names starting with "A." I continually gravitate to "A" names for my pets even though I spend a lot of time thinking about different names . . . If they do like the -el names, there are still some left in the Old Testament: Abel, Azriel, Daniel, Emmanuel, Ezekiel, Gabriel, Lemuel, Nathaniel, Raphael. Of these, I think Emmanuel and Nathaniel are the most likely, but who knows. Jill and Derick have done a reasonably good job of naming their kids, and I doubt they're going to dig too very deep into the Old Testament to find something unusual. Really, other than Spurgeon*, all of the gen3 kids have nice enough names. *Oh, and Wilberforce! How could I have forgotten about Wilberforce!

I think that "honor and priviledge" to go to ALERT is the party line -- I can't imagine any Gothard kid saying anything else. My guess is that it depends on the person and the situation. I think that there was a lot of concern about Josiah. There was a lot of insinuation on this board about his "fabulousness" and I don't think that it went unnoticed in the Duggar household (the behavior, not the board chatter). Some kids might get sent to ALERT because they want to play with guns -- or whatever -- but I think Josiah was sent to toughen him up and make him present in a more "masculine" way.

I don't believe any of the kids who go to ALERT even see this questionaire. Does anyone think that anyone other than JB answers questions like: Is there harmony and a sense of security in your home? Explain your father and mothers’ relationship; Explain your relationship with your parents; Who is the spiritual leader of your home? Has that always been? I can't imagine being some teenage kid and answering these questions on this form that you know -- 100% -- that your parents will read. What are the chances of answering "Explain your father and mother's relationship" in a way that won't piss off JB.

I think it's a good parenting decision that the kids have a bed time AT ALL. They wear pajamas, they appear to have a story time before bed. They eat regular meals. All of this is a huge change from the way Jill grew up. She's definitely doing 100% better than she was when Izzy was a baby. I still wish that they would stop having children, but I think that the Dillard kids have a much more stable and happy home than the Seewalds.

Jill takes uniformaly awful photos of herself. I agree that the shade isn't flattering to her coloring, but it's probably less awful than the photos suggest. Jill isn't the most attractive of the sisters, and Gothard places a huge premium on an attractive "countenance" in women and girls. I think that Jill had a lot of self esteem issues for a long time, and I'm glad that she's doing things like this for herself. She looks happy and excited in all of the photos, and she feels pretty. None of the Duggar daughters has any skill or talent in hair, makeup, fashion, house decoration, cooking or child rearing and all of their "likes" and "shares" and "followers," etc. are based on the show, and none of them has managed to forge a coherant brand outside of it. Jill feels pretty with her new hair color, and her husband has a job -- she's probably going to be okay if she never develops a coherant SM presence.

I heard rumors that he had a girlfriend when he was in Jesus jail in Rockford. She was telling people that they were "in love" and that he was going to leave Anna. I don't know if this is the same person . . .

I think that JB and JL are very much alike, with the noteworthy exception that I don't think JL treated his wife well. The impression that I get from the little we have heard of him is that JL was loud, boastful, a bit loose with the truth, and not great with money (but thought he was). Sound like anyone named JB that we know? I also vaguely recall that JL drank (how much, we don't know), cheated on his wife, and may have been physically abusive to his wife and children. JB is, IMO, a thoroughly awful human being, but I do believe that he loves his wife, and loved his mother. JL's financial shenanigans created, I'm sure, a great deal of stress and insecurity in his home. I don't doubt that JB's questionable financial decisions have done the same, but I don't think he (JB) sees it that way. I think that the narrative that JB has wrapped around the unhappy aspects of his childhood is that JL didn't believe enough in Jesus, or in the right way, or in the right Jesus . . .

IMO they didn't sign him up for hospice care because it's a government service. This is a huge thing for them and their cult, and they justify not paying taxes because they don't use these types of services. JB and family lived off of "love offerings," they didn't get SNAP. They don't send their children to public schools, etc., etc. Of course, both JB and JD have received paychecks and other benefits from the state, but that doesn't count somehow. And they conveniently ignore the endless benefits they enjoy at others' expense: roads, airports, law enforcement, courts, fire department, etc., etc. And there are huge secondary benefits to living on the fringes of a functional society: trained doctors and nurses (and other professionals) available when they're required, a functional supply chain, functional and reliable utilities -- including communications, and so on.

You forgot to mention that the later years of 19K&C were also very boring -- also, Counting On was also very boring. . . My personal opinion is that the shows were less scripted than some "reality" shows simply because the bar was set very low. The producers weren't really trying to gin up conflict, and I think they used the TH's to try to goad the kids into saying "cute" things. The days were probably very long with setup and marking, etc., but they may have only filmed for a few hours. Since no one had anywhere to go, or anything to do, anyway, it probably wasn't that time consuming for the kids.