Martha: Who Knew?

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Kokapetl said:

Robert’s wife thought Robert was a drug dealer, so I assumed. 

She asked Philip and Elizabeth if he was dealing drugs after he disappeared and died because she saw it as an obvious possible explanation. But that's just it--if she was a junkie and thought he was a drug dealer she would have been asking him for drugs on the regular and know more about his business. So if she was a junkie she'd know he wasn't a drug dealer.

Edited November 19, 2017 by sistermagpie

[crgirl412]

I want to know how Clark got to know Martha.  The first scene we ever is them sitting on the couch in her apartment while he looks at classified documents that she was able to pick up from the copier or the robot.  

[sistermagpie]

No, the first scene we see is him interviewing her in his alleged capacity as DOJ investigator looking for a potential mole. That's how they met before the pilot. No classified documents until after they're married. 

[crgirl412]

14 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

No, the first scene we see is him interviewing her in his alleged capacity as DOJ investigator looking for a potential mole. That's how they met before the pilot. No classified documents until after they're married. 

I'm sure you are correct!!!  I really want to see how they pulled that one off with a lot of the details. 

[Chaos Theory]

On 1/10/2018 at 6:13 PM, crgirl412 said:

I'm sure you are correct!!!  I really want to see how they pulled that one off with a lot of the details. 

Like with every other operation they probably got their hands on a list of FBI personal and went down the list of possible entry points.  Martha was low hanging fruit for someone like Philip but I still say he never planned or intended for things to go as far as they did with her.  “The Martha Operation” got waaaay out of hand but it also provided P&E with intel they wouldn’t have gotten otherwise.

[sistermagpie]

6 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Like with every other operation they probably got their hands on a list of FBI personal and went down the list of possible entry points.  Martha was low hanging fruit for someone like Philip but I still say he never planned or intended for things to go as far as they did with her.  “The Martha Operation” got waaaay out of hand but it also provided P&E with intel they wouldn’t have gotten otherwise.

Oh, definitely. I think Philip was definitely playing it by ear. Every time he pushed a little Martha let him, so it just went further and further. And we know that the whole reason he asked her to marry him was to get her to plant the bug, and he wanted the bug planted to protect Elizabeth when she went to meet the colonel.

[qtpye]

On 3/2/2018 at 9:50 PM, sistermagpie said:

Oh, definitely. I think Philip was definitely playing it by ear. Every time he pushed a little Martha let him, so it just went further and further. And we know that the whole reason he asked her to marry him was to get her to plant the bug, and he wanted the bug planted to protect Elizabeth when she went to meet the colonel.

Not only is the man you love using you for information, but also to protect the woman HE loves. 

[Chaos Theory]

On 3/2/2018 at 9:50 PM, sistermagpie said:

Oh, definitely. I think Philip was definitely playing it by ear. Every time he pushed a little Martha let him, so it just went further and further. And we know that the whole reason he asked her to marry him was to get her to plant the bug, and he wanted the bug planted to protect Elizabeth when she went to meet the colonel.

 

15 hours ago, qtpye said:

Not only is the man you love using you for information, but also to protect the woman HE loves. 

And yet Elizabeth was vaguely jealous of Martha.  Jealous enough to give her that unnecessary kidney punch at the end.    There were moments where Elizabeth felt that if things were different Philip would have prefered the life Martha could offer him.  She was wrong but Elizabeth was a little jealous there at the end.  

Edited March 7, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[scrubs14]

Hi, I just finished  watching this for the first time.  So good!  I have a question about (Poor) Martha.  What would happen to her after the fall of the Soviet Union.  They make it clear that there are people helping her get used to life in the USSR, but would that have remained?  Would she just be expected to survive on her own? She couldn't go back to the U.S., right? I hope this isn't too dumb of a question, but its the thing that keeps popping into my head.  And I hope this is the right place for it! 

 

Thanks!

[sistermagpie]

On 3/6/2018 at 5:53 PM, Chaos Theory said:

And yet Elizabeth was vaguely jealous of Martha.  Jealous enough to give her that unnecessary kidney punch at the end.    There were moments where Elizabeth felt that if things were different Philip would have prefered the life Martha could offer him.  She was wrong but Elizabeth was a little jealous there at the end.  

Gotta say, I don't think that was unnecessary at all. She knocked the wind out of her so she couldn't yell and got her into the car. Her own preference would probably have been to kill her.

29 minutes ago, scrubs14 said:

Hi, I just finished  watching this for the first time.  So good!  I have a question about (Poor) Martha.  What would happen to her after the fall of the Soviet Union.  They make it clear that there are people helping her get used to life in the USSR, but would that have remained?  Would she just be expected to survive on her own? She couldn't go back to the U.S., right? I hope this isn't too dumb of a question, but its the thing that keeps popping into my head.  And I hope this is the right place for it! 

If she went back to the US she'd be put in jail. That's a good question about how her life might change after the fall of the USSR! I would guess there would still be people taking care of her. Though when everything in the country is more chaotic maybe things would get harder for her? She can't be the only defector over there so probably whatever changes happened with her would happen with them too. They'd still have a use for her as an American.

[SunnyBeBe]

She is probably my favorite character, after Philip, but, do you recall what name Martha was given in Russia?  I assume that she no longer goes as Martha.

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

She is probably my favorite character, after Philip, but, do you recall what name Martha was given in Russia?  I assume that she no longer goes as Martha.

 I don't think she was given any name. She could still be Martha. Maybe just often pronounced as Marfa or Marta or something. I don't think her identity is being hidden there.

[SunnyBeBe]

38 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 I don't think she was given any name. She could still be Martha. Maybe just often pronounced as Marfa or Marta or something. I don't think her identity is being hidden there.

Oh,......so, that would mean that a CIA agent could just look her up and go visit?  lol  I'm trying to envision it. 

[sistermagpie]

Just now, SunnyBeBe said:

Oh,......so, that would mean that a CIA agent could just look her up and go visit?  lol  I'm trying to envision it. 

The CIA can't go visit anybody in Moscow. I mean, they pretty much know she's there. Kim Philby lived there quite openly and even got visits from his wife. (Public nerve gas attacks aren't the norm it seems!) 

[Plums]

soooooo... the population of Moscow at around the time Phil and Liz arrive is a bit less than 9 million. Presuming they stay there after they're debriefed (safely, away from hardliners who will want to kill them), what are the chances they run into Martha and her daughter somewhere out in public? How awkward will that be? And imagine if Martha sees them together, with "Jennifer" looking like gorgeous Elizabeth, and clearly they're together. OMG. I imagine by that point she may be over it somewhat. You got the sense from her scene with Gabriel in s5 that the scales had fallen from her eyes with regards to what Clark was really doing with her and how he (hadn't) really felt. But seeing it? Oh my god, the pain. 

[jjj]

6 minutes ago, Plums said:

soooooo... the population of Moscow at around the time Phil and Liz arrive is a bit less than 9 million. Presuming they stay there after they're debriefed (safely, away from hardliners who will want to kill them), what are the chances they run into Martha and her daughter somewhere out in public? How awkward will that be? And imagine if Martha sees them together, with "Jennifer" looking like gorgeous Elizabeth, and clearly they're together. OMG. I imagine by that point she may be over it somewhat. You got the sense from her scene with Gabriel in s5 that the scales had fallen from her eyes with regards to what Clark was really doing with her and how he (hadn't) really felt. But seeing it? Oh my god, the pain. 

Plus, I think Martha left the U.S. thinking she was actually married to "Clark"/Philip, so she may well believe he is her husband.  And yes, I think she will be shocked to see "Jennifer"/Elizabeth with him!  I am sure Gabriel or someone who replaced him is keeping track of Martha. 

[KathyMMWSO]

I'm hoping Elizabeth and Phillip face a firing squad and Martha gets to watch. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎1‎.‎6‎.‎2018 at 12:50 AM, jjj said:

Plus, I think Martha left the U.S. thinking she was actually married to "Clark"/Philip, so she may well believe he is her husband.  

When Gabriel visited Martha in Moscow and told Clark had send his love, she told him to leave and said that she now knew "all", looking very sad and totally devasted. She didn't say what she meant with "all", but I suppose that she had at last realized that Clark had never loved her but only used her cullibility. When they met the last time, she still believed that his feelings for her had been real.

As for their marriage, I don't know the US law, but if one married using a wrong name, the marriage isn't valid.    

[Roseanna]

On ‎3‎.‎3‎.‎2018 at 4:50 AM, sistermagpie said:

Oh, definitely. I think Philip was definitely playing it by ear. Every time he pushed a little Martha let him, so it just went further and further. And we know that the whole reason he asked her to marry him was to get her to plant the bug, and he wanted the bug planted to protect Elizabeth when she went to meet the colonel.

It's true that Philip pushed but also Martha took actively initiatives in their relationship.

As I wrote in Season1 -thread, she confessed her love and said that she is ready to do anything for Clark and only after that she asked "is this real" - that was formally her condition to do anything, but she had already capitulated. Love meant everything to her and she was ready to sacrifice everything for Clark. When she still believed that he worked for the US, she was ready to betray her boss and colleagues - of course convincing herself that she was only helping to prove what great job they were making.        

[sistermagpie]

14 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

It's true that Philip pushed but also Martha took actively initiatives in their relationship.

And she even started bringing home those documents she found lying around without Clark asking. Philip was really shocked at that! She was also doing it because she was frustrated at nobody listening to her about being more careful.

[Plums]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

It's true that Philip pushed but also Martha took actively initiatives in their relationship.

And she even started bringing home those documents she found lying around without Clark asking. Philip was really shocked at that! She was also doing it because she was frustrated at nobody listening to her about being more careful.

One of the details I love that I only caught on rewatch is how fortuitously drama at the FBI worked out to keep up the ruse with Martha before she knew the truth about Clark. Gaad was getting into trouble behind closed doors for the Vlad business and getting layered at the same time that Martha was bringing all this information to Clark, so she thought the information she was leaking was what was causing all the official consequences he was facing. I don't know why Philip didn't run with that instead of trying to convince her otherwise. 

[Umbelina]

44 minutes ago, Plums said:

One of the details I love that I only caught on rewatch is how fortuitously drama at the FBI worked out to keep up the ruse with Martha before she knew the truth about Clark. Gaad was getting into trouble behind closed doors for the Vlad business and getting layered at the same time that Martha was bringing all this information to Clark, so she thought the information she was leaking was what was causing all the official consequences he was facing. I don't know why Philip didn't run with that instead of trying to convince her otherwise. 

Because she could get caught, and so could he.  Stealing actually files and just walking out with them was very dangerous.  Martha is not a trained spy.  Doing things like that could screw up the entire operation.  She was lucky, but Philip doesn't want to risk his life on an amateur willy nilly stealing random files.  Martha thought she was stealing them FOR an FBI operation, she had no idea Philips wasn't FBI, so getting caught for her was no big deal "I told you these files were not being handled properly!"

[Plums]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Stealing actually files and just walking out with them was very dangerous.

I'm not talking about the file stealing. He actually didn't try to stop her from doing it, just told her to be careful. I'm talking about early season 2 when she was feeling bad about spying on her colleagues because she liked them and was feeling guilty that Gaad got layered because she thought she was responsible for, and Philip told her it wasn't because of anything she said instead of encouraging that conclusion because it works to maintain his cover. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Plums said:

I'm not talking about the file stealing. He actually didn't try to stop her from doing it, just told her to be careful. I'm talking about early season 2 when she was feeling bad about spying on her colleagues because she liked them and was feeling guilty that Gaad got layered because she thought she was responsible for, and Philip told her it wasn't because of anything she said instead of encouraging that conclusion because it works to maintain his cover. 

I can see why he wouldn't--it does maintain his cover, but it also makes her feel guilty, so that might be the priority for him, to keep her from feeling guilty. At that point she's not suspecting that he's not who he says he is, so he doesn't need to push that angle.

[Roseanna]

In S2 there is much talk how Martha "comforted" Clark. It was evidently thought that because we saw before the happenings because of which Philip was depressed, he told Martha about his true feelings.

But was it so? Or was it like Elizabeth did with that young soldier? Although she spoke about her real rape, she used it to make him do what she wanted.

Concerning how calculated Philip was, I doubt that he told his stress in the work in order to make it easier to himself. It's much more likely that he did it to bind Martha emotionally more to himself. And he guessed right: Martha liked when Clark was dependent on her help and comfort.

There has always been much talk about Philip's feelings towards Martha. In S2 she was no more simply a "target", he saw her as genuinely a nice person and he hesitated to hurt her. He had that counterfeit cassette but he first put it back. Only after he felt anger about the drowned Soviet seamen, he hardened herself. But still he felt a pang of conscience and was physically unable to have sex with Martha, nor couldn't even let her intimately touch himself (she aske if he could fo BJ for him but he refused and left).

I think that listening Gaad speak that she was so ugly he couldn't touch her but drunk was the decisive moment for Martha. To somebody else, it wouldn't have mattered what her boss thought of her as a woman so long he respected and valued her for her work. Some like Elizabeth would have thought that one should be loyal regardless of personal hardships. But to Martha everything was personal.

Something must have happened Martha which made her react so strongly to Gaad's degrading words. It can't be just that she was single. We know only that her previous relationship had failed. But she could have had Amador back, but she had enough self-respect to refuse.     

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

In S2 there is much talk how Martha "comforted" Clark. It was evidently thought that because we saw before the happenings because of which Philip was depressed, he told Martha about his true feelings.

 

I never agreed with the idea that Martha comforted Clark or that Clark went to her with his real feelings. Sometimes he did obviously refer to things that were real, but never, imo, because he was seeking comfort from Martha. More like he was just talking things through for himself. It seemed like this especially came up with regard to his EST story about the bullies where people said he talked about it to Martha, but he actually didn't tell Martha anything about the story at all. He just said he'd been thinking about "stupid stuff" from when he was a kid and whether that made him the way he was now--iow, again I think he was talking things through and not seeking comfort.

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Something must have happened Martha which made her react so strongly to Gaad's degrading words. It can't be just that she was single. We know only that her previous relationship had failed. But she could have had Amador back, but she had enough self-respect to refuse.     

It seemed like Martha's loneliness had left a real mark on her. We later learn that she had an abortion when she was very young--perhaps back then, too, she trusted a man to really love her and care about her and then at the first sign of trouble he just abandoned her. Amador, it seemed, cheated on her. I think the issue with the people at work wasn't necessarily that she cared if Gaad found her attractive or not, but his words implied that she was unworthy of love from anyone and was alone because nobody could really want to be with her. Like she was a joke. That's the fear that Clark was playing on and it worked. Clark always wanted her and thought she was beautiful. 

[Roseanna]

The characters have many occassions where they can make choices, at least theoretically. Nina and Martha are in many ways opposites. Whereas Nina makes different choices, mostly after the situation she is in but also after different principles, Martha always choses Clark and love.

Perhaps the most important one was when, after the pen in Gaad's Office has been discoved and she has been interrogated by Walter Taffet, she realized that Clark wasn't the man she had believed him to be. She is agitated but after Clark had spoken her about their love and marriage, she is reassured.

As Philip said to Elizabeth, Martha doesn't want to know. And Philip is sure that he can trust in Martha.   

[Roseanna]

Many here were sure that Philip would kill Martha, especially after he took his wig away and showed his Philip face. Of course there was precedents, like the old lady to whom Elizabeth told her true name.

But then Philip would have killed Martha just after the revelation as there was a danger that Martha had even more information to give to the FBI. 

Philip took a chance by showing his true face because he knew Martha and was sure she wouldn't inform on him. Instead, it was a way to bind Martha to him by reassuring that he loved her.

Still, it was a huge risk. Philip's estimation about Martha could have been wrong or she could simply have broken down.

[Roseanna]

Continueing: I think that Martha was considered like Gregory who was also offered a chance to move to Russia. The difference was that Gregory knew whom he had served and chosen it from his own free will, Martha didn't neither. 

Also generally, it makes sense that good agents were rewarded, or at least protected. If the Center had just killed all their agents, why would anyone have wanted to serve it, at least if not blackmailed. 

[Umbelina]

On 3/6/2018 at 2:53 PM, Chaos Theory said:

 

And yet Elizabeth was vaguely jealous of Martha.  Jealous enough to give her that unnecessary kidney punch at the end.    There were moments where Elizabeth felt that if things were different Philip would have prefered the life Martha could offer him.  She was wrong but Elizabeth was a little jealous there at the end.  

 

She was jealous, especially after Martha and Elizabeth shared wine and Martha told her what an "animal" Philip was in bed.  The kidney punch was for one reason only though, to make her stop screaming.

On 4/8/2018 at 5:27 PM, scrubs14 said:

Hi, I just finished  watching this for the first time.  So good!  I have a question about (Poor) Martha.  What would happen to her after the fall of the Soviet Union.  They make it clear that there are people helping her get used to life in the USSR, but would that have remained?  Would she just be expected to survive on her own? She couldn't go back to the U.S., right? I hope this isn't too dumb of a question, but its the thing that keeps popping into my head.  And I hope this is the right place for it! 

 

Thanks!

Who knows?  It was chaos.  My bet would be that no one at the KGB gave her a second thought. She would be on her own, in "the wild east" which is the way many described Russia once the entire country collapsed.  I think she would be stuck, completely.  She has no skills, no fake or real passports probably, no money.  She'd have to find some kind of job, because her "dole" money would most likely stop.  Aside from all of that, before the collapse things would be very rough as well, the country was broke.  Does Martha have any survival skills?  Maybe for her adopted daughter she would try harder.

On 4/8/2018 at 5:59 PM, sistermagpie said:

Gotta say, I don't think that was unnecessary at all. She knocked the wind out of her so she couldn't yell and got her into the car. Her own preference would probably have been to kill her.

If she went back to the US she'd be put in jail. That's a good question about how her life might change after the fall of the USSR! I would guess there would still be people taking care of her. Though when everything in the country is more chaotic maybe things would get harder for her? She can't be the only defector over there so probably whatever changes happened with her would happen with them too. They'd still have a use for her as an American.

She was so low level, a conned woman.  The whole idea she would be "honored" for that is ridiculous.  She wasn't a defector, she was a traitor who did it for false "love."  Would Philip find her and help her as the country fell?  Probably not, he'd be lucky to still be alive himself, and he and Elizabeth would have issues of their own, had they been astonishingly lucky enough to be alive.

On 4/9/2018 at 9:32 AM, sistermagpie said:

The CIA can't go visit anybody in Moscow. I mean, they pretty much know she's there. Kim Philby lived there quite openly and even got visits from his wife. (Public nerve gas attacks aren't the norm it seems!) 

After it fell they could, but I seriously doubt it would be any kind of priority.  The CIA was deeply humiliated and nearly didn't survive not predicting the fall of the USSR.  No one in intelligence did, from any country, but still, it was a black eye that nearly ended the CIA.

On 5/31/2018 at 2:50 PM, jjj said:

Plus, I think Martha left the U.S. thinking she was actually married to "Clark"/Philip, so she may well believe he is her husband.  And yes, I think she will be shocked to see "Jennifer"/Elizabeth with him!  I am sure Gabriel or someone who replaced him is keeping track of Martha. 

She had a Russian language teacher, probably low level KGB, but again, she was nothing, without skills, without friends or connections.  The possibility of her escape is laughable.  They probably simply paid a few informants in her building a bit, and he daughter's school.  "Give us a call if she isn't here."  Once Philip and Elizabeth came back?  Even that would end.

On 7/16/2018 at 10:03 AM, sistermagpie said:

And she even started bringing home those documents she found lying around without Clark asking. Philip was really shocked at that! She was also doing it because she was frustrated at nobody listening to her about being more careful.

She did that because she was very upset about the lack of proper security in her office.  She had tried for years to bring that to the attention of her bosses, and nothing changed.  She thought Clarke was there to protect FBI security, so she demonstrated just how lax it was by bringing home the files.  That all happened long before Clark ripped off his wig.  Right?    (I could be wrong, not much sleep last night)

On 7/19/2018 at 12:08 AM, Roseanna said:

In S2 there is much talk how Martha "comforted" Clark. It was evidently thought that because we saw before the happenings because of which Philip was depressed, he told Martha about his true feelings.

But was it so? Or was it like Elizabeth did with that young soldier? Although she spoke about her real rape, she used it to make him do what she wanted.

Concerning how calculated Philip was, I doubt that he told his stress in the work in order to make it easier to himself. It's much more likely that he did it to bind Martha emotionally more to himself. And he guessed right: Martha liked when Clark was dependent on her help and comfort.

There has always been much talk about Philip's feelings towards Martha. In S2 she was no more simply a "target", he saw her as genuinely a nice person and he hesitated to hurt her. He had that counterfeit cassette but he first put it back. Only after he felt anger about the drowned Soviet seamen, he hardened herself. But still he felt a pang of conscience and was physically unable to have sex with Martha, nor couldn't even let her intimately touch himself (she aske if he could fo BJ for him but he refused and left).

I think that listening Gaad speak that she was so ugly he couldn't touch her but drunk was the decisive moment for Martha. To somebody else, it wouldn't have mattered what her boss thought of her as a woman so long he respected and valued her for her work. Some like Elizabeth would have thought that one should be loyal regardless of personal hardships. But to Martha everything was personal.

Something must have happened Martha which made her react so strongly to Gaad's degrading words. It can't be just that she was single. We know only that her previous relationship had failed. But she could have had Amador back, but she had enough self-respect to refuse.     

I do think there were moments when Philip appreciated Martha's care for and of him.  She had faith and trust in him after they were married for a while, and it was pretty selfless most of the time.  She cared that he looked tired, or that he might be hungry, she encouraged him, sympathized with him.  She was kind of like a loving dog that could talk and cook.  You may not love your dog they way you love your wife, but there is still love there, when someone cares more about you than anything in the world.

I can even pinpoint the moment when, for me anyway, Philip's annoyance with Martha subsided quite a bit.  It was about adopting a child.  It paralleled with something he and Elizabeth were doing at the time "to help people"  which of course, did not help anyone.  With Elizabeth it was all theory and rather meaningless words.  (What was that disappointing op of theirs?)  Anyway, Martha talks to him and says, with true love in her heart, how much of a difference they could make in a child's life.  "We have so much...."  For her, adopting wasn't about "Woo!  I want a CHILD!"  It was far more about look what we could do for someone, change and better their life.  I also think he appreciated that the little girl wasn't a look alike child, she was a black child, a difference that Martha honestly didn't care about.  Martha was "walking the talk" and Elizabeth was still just talking bullshit (KGB propaganda.)  At that moment Martha was no longer just an adoring dog, who loved sex.

Yes, the submarine thing made him give Martha that doctored tape, to make her think Gaad and the "boys" at the office laughed about her and insulted her, which, of course, they did not.  It wounded her deeply, and again, I think it was more that Philip felt he was hurting a loyal dog deliberately.  Guilt.

 

10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Many here were sure that Philip would kill Martha, especially after he took his wig away and showed his Philip face. Of course there was precedents, like the old lady to whom Elizabeth told her true name.

But then Philip would have killed Martha just after the revelation as there was a danger that Martha had even more information to give to the FBI. 

Philip took a chance by showing his true face because he knew Martha and was sure she wouldn't inform on him. Instead, it was a way to bind Martha to him by reassuring that he loved her.

Still, it was a huge risk. Philip's estimation about Martha could have been wrong or she could simply have broken down.

Philip would have killed her if his desperate gamble of ripping off the wig didn't work.  It did, he assessed her correctly. 

10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Continueing: I think that Martha was considered like Gregory who was also offered a chance to move to Russia. The difference was that Gregory knew whom he had served and chosen it from his own free will, Martha didn't neither. 

Also generally, it makes sense that good agents were rewarded, or at least protected. If the Center had just killed all their agents, why would anyone have wanted to serve it, at least if not blackmailed. 

Very different.  Martha was duped.  Gregory had his eyes wide open and believed in their causes before he even met Elizabeth.  Gregory wasn't stupid enough to think a black man in the Soviet Union would have any kind of decent life though.  Gregory, IMO, would have been treated far better than Martha, and should have been, at least on the surface, but the racism he knew in the USA was at least something he knew how to deal with.  There?  Elizabeth was fooling herself, and Gregory, who obviously DID read, unlike Paige, knew that.

ETA

It's stupid that they didn't offer Gregory Cuba or another Soviet held/controlled area that would be more comfortable for him.  Honestly, I think they would have done that.  The danger was that if he was caught, he could identify Elizabeth and Philip under duress or torture of course, but still, after all he'd done, I'd think they would at least consider that for him, but have him watched carefully.

Edited July 25, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

51 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

She did that because she was very upset about the lack of proper security in her office.  She had tried for years to bring that to the attention of her bosses, and nothing changed.  She thought Clarke was there to protect FBI security, so she demonstrated just how lax it was by bringing home the files.  That all happened long before Clark ripped off his wig.  Right?    (I could be wrong, not much sleep last night)

Yup, I think it's even around the time she says she noticed he was wearing a wig. But yes, she's bringing home the files to make her point about security--a point nobody listened to at the office. Not because he asked her to. It was an unexpected windfall for him.

53 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I can even pinpoint the moment when, for me anyway, Philip's annoyance with Martha subsided quite a bit.  It was about adopting a child.  It paralleled with something he and Elizabeth were doing at the time "to help people"  which of course, did not help anyone. 

I think it was at the same time as Kimmy, so while he maybe did think--or at least hope--what he was doing was helping soldiers in Afghanistan, he was also hurting a child--plus he'd learned for sure (he thought) that he had a child out there alone. I definitely think in that moment he recognized Martha as a genuinely good person who would have made a great difference in the life of a needy child. She knew what it was like to be lonely and would have used that to help someone else. Martha was exactly the type of person Philip would have wanted to help himself.

I think he genuinely respected Martha in the end too--she was tough enough to make a go of it in Moscow. I always liked when he, imo, defended her to Elizabeth when she described her as being less complicated and simple, even if she meant it as a compliment of sorts. Or at least was saying that this made her more attractive than Elizabeth in that moment.

[Roseanna]

On ‎25‎.‎7‎.‎2018 at 10:58 PM, sistermagpie said:

he recognized Martha as a genuinely good person 

When Martha's father praised Martha's sweetness and kindness, Aderholt said that it just like that kind of people who could easily be used.

Of course Stan also used Nina (which Nina understood) and Nina used Stan (which Stan never understood). 

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

When Martha's father praised Martha's sweetness and kindness, Aderholt said that it just like that kind of people who could easily be used.

 

True--but of course, greedy people can also be used! What Aderholt was saying was smart, though, because Martha's father was unable to reconcile the idea of his daughter being a good person and being in this position. Aderholt was giving him a way that she could be both. They manipulated her using her good qualities. She was sweet and kind--she was the same woman he always thought she was. She was just victimized. Clark was the bad person here.

Stan's a person who really ought to be in therapy figuring out why he seems to prefer spies who are using him to other relationships!

[Umbelina]

I was just trying to think of something I loved about the Americans (that for me wasn't spoiled by season 5 or the ending.)

Martha's story, from start to finish was perfection.  I'm just going to list some of the reasons for me, off the top of my head.

1. Obviously Alison Wright was not only perfectly cast, but she excelled in this role, and in addition, she and the writing brought out some of the most interesting things about other characters.  Stan, Amador, Gaad, Philip, Gabriel, Taffett, even Elizabeth...no matter who she played with in a scene, all performances were elevated and somehow fresh and new.  
2. This story allowed Mathew Rhys to really shine, and show so many layers, and so much humanity, complexity, so much heart and duty as well, and in the end, he took on the KGB and won, just to save ONE innocent life (for a change.)  It allowed Philip to, for once, defy the powers that be, and do what he knew was right, showed his bravery and finally, a line he refused to cross, in spite of "orders" and Elizabeth/Gabe's reactions.
3. The relationship story itself was so well crafted, and based in reality as well.  The honeytrap and all that ended up meaning for both of them, for years.  Elizabeth's jealous bout brought out a new color to her relationship with Philip.  From beginning to the end, I never didn't believe Philip or Martha. 
4. The end, for Martha to not end up dead like the secret wife?  Worked for me as well, because of the biotoxin story, a plane was already leaving anyway.  Also, because Gabriel was their handler at that time, not Claudia, Martha living to see Cuba and eventually Moscow worked for me, even if I had to fanwank it a bit, those aspects allowed that.  Martha finally realizing that Philip had used her, and it was all a KGB lie?  Her distraught parents?  Even Gabriel arranging for her to adopt a child?  Her sad little apartment?  All completely believable for me.
5. With Martha, and because of her, we got to see "the other side of the story" in a different and more complex way than Stan allowed.  So, we always had the FBI on screen, the flip side of the KGB and Residentura conflict.  Losing that, which they didn't have to do even without Martha's invaluable presence on screen?  Really hurt the show in Season 5, and I think in season 6 as well.  That was such a part of the complicated fabric they were weaving back then.
6. So many great stories for Martha!  It's hard to remember back when "we" or some of us, and I admit to being one of them, found her slightly annoying.  We so wanted to watch Philip with Elizabeth, and Martha interrupted that!  Soon we were all won over though, and each story of hers resonated, and also made Philip shine.

A few favorite scenes/stories of mine.

1. When Gaad/Aderholt/Stan found the bug in the pen!  The TENSION was almost all due to Martha, or at least the DANGER was all hers, and man, she rocked every second of that.  I was so nervous for her the entire time!
2. Her fears about Taffett, and Philip helping her through those "stare at my nose."  Again, she made me afraid for her, and she made that actor shine even brighter in those scenes.
3. Wanting to adopt a baby, while presented as annoying for Philip, also made him see her with new eyes when she said, "we have so much, we could share it and make the world better for that little girl" or whatever the words were.  Philip saw, right then, that all the "work" he was doing for the KGB was based on that same kind of desire, and not working.  With Martha, he saw the true spirit and a real action that embodied everything he was supposedly fighting for. 
4. The wedding!  How much fun was that, for all of us, and for the cast!
5. Philip doctoring the tape to make Martha think her male coworkers thought her physically disgusting, and her reactions to that...so moving.
6. Philip finally ripping off his wig!  Again so much tension there!
7. The entire kidnapping/escape at the end was perfection from start to finish, and once again, allowed all of the actors involved to shine, not just her.  Even later, the scenes with Stan and Aderholt with Martha's parents were so meaningful.
8. The FBI's reaction to learning Martha was KGB, Stan, Gaad, Aderholt putting it all together, pulling together as a real law enforcement team to track down "Clarke" showing us what they were made of, once again, Martha's story allowed all of that.

All in all, she was one of the most successful and compelling characters on the show for so many reasons.  Maybe her loss was part of the reason it all fell so badly apart in season 5?  She was the link that kind of kept the stories in tandem, and important to everyone, not just one side?

[Umbelina]

On 3/9/2014 at 9:27 PM, Carrie Ann said:

I can't stand Martha. It feels mean to dislike someone so pathetic, but man, she bugs me. There is no good end to her story, but it would be nice if she took a little more control in the meantime.

So many of us felt this way!

On 3/9/2014 at 9:54 PM, TravisNelson76 said:

Martha's actually my favorite character on the show.  I love her bursts of optimism and practicality.  Does she say, "Oh, Clark" a lot in a bemused tone?  It feels like she says, "Oh, Clark" a lot in a bemused tone.

Ahead of your time there!  Most seemed to get aboard the Martha love around 2015!

On 3/11/2014 at 9:12 PM, TravisNelson76 said:

I listened, Dave.  And you are of course right.  But because I love Martha so, I am choosing to fan-wank the situation as follows: Martha KNOWS that Clark is wearing a wig.  She just assumes that it is because he is going bald.  And although she certainly gabs about the situation with her best friends Judy and Carol, she daresn't bring it up with Clark himself.  

They resolved that whole wig thing SO well!

On 3/29/2014 at 7:49 AM, Kierstyn said:

This week Martha made me want to smack her in the face with one of her white wine bottles. 

  Reveal hidden contents

What woman talks to her sister-in-law about the details of her sex life with said sister-in-law's brother?

  Ugh!  Drunk Martha is the worst Martha.

I kind of loved drunk Martha, even back then.  Ha.

On 3/30/2014 at 7:22 PM, Hal25 said:

As Martha scenes go, I thought the ones in this latest episode were pretty okay. She's not a particularly compelling character compared to some of the others, but at least this season they're keeping her clothes on and having some scenes outside the bedroom. Will be interested to see where they go with her character, hopefully NOT a pregnancy...

Oh how compelling she became though!

On 5/22/2014 at 11:26 AM, millennium said:

The scenes where Clark explains to Martha that kids just aren't in the script broke my heart.   She gets no fulfillment at work, she lives in that lonely little apartment with a fake husband who has fake hair and who's there maybe six hours a week, and all she wants is a baby.    Sorry, Martha.  Not gonna happen.

 

I suppose that if she weren't a pawn in the spy game, Martha would probably live out her existence alone, anyway.  A spinster secretary for life.

 

The fact that she's been tricked into believing she's loved makes it all the more sad.

 

 

 

I think Philip would do it himself.

 

I believe he feels sorry for Martha and harbors a lot of guilt over what he's done to her.   And from that guilt comes anger.   Her gullibility made it possible for him to do these terrible things.   It's her fault that he was able to dupe her.   What kind of self-respecting woman would settle for the crumbs Clark offers?  

 

Philip would so kill her.

There were always so many compelling ways they could finish out the Martha story, it certainly kept us guessing.  I don't know if any of us ever though relocating to Moscow alone would be her end though.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Philip finally ripping off his wig!  Again so much tension there!

I love all these moments, but this is one of the ones that really amazes me and shows how well they did the Martha story. Because we know the whole time that Clark is really Philip. We've seen him "be" Philip while still wearing Clark's wig. We've seen him take that wig off (or once have it taken off for him) before. And yet when he took off the wig in this scene it played to me like a horror movie and I totally felt scared along with Martha. It didn't matter that it was just Philip taking off his Clark wig. I was with Martha realizing that her husband was just that much more terrifying than she'd probably allowed herself to believe before that.

I remember early on some people thought of Martha as comic relief because it was so funny/sad to watch her throw herself into this affair and let herself feel like the heroine of a romance novel. But the show obviously really thought about her from her own pov, knew why she'd do what she did, and in the end Martha managed to keep her dignity more than plenty of other characters. She knew who she was, she knew what she did. She also knew what was right and wrong and that while she did wrong, she didn't do wrong as much as these other people.

I think that's why I remember getting really defensive of her when Elizabeth would talk about her in contrast to herself. I know that a big part of it was her insecurities about what she wasn't giving Philip, but she would say things about Martha being more simple and it just seemed so inaccurate--I mean, Elizabeth is actually pretty simple herself.

And then she was still ready to build a life for herself! In a country she never wanted to live in, where she had to learn the language from scratch, where she didn't know what she was doing. But she was able to go forward--and she was going to do it all alone. She's a quiet badass!

[Umbelina]

[Umbelina]

another old one I haven't seen, it gets pretty good, with Holly Taylor