Stan: The Patriot

[SunnyBeBe]

On 3/13/2015 at 7:46 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

I also think they are wasting valuable time on Stan and his lamenting over the loss of his marriage.  I have zero interest in seeing his ex-wife.  Enough already.  Would it be too much for Philip to send Stan a nice, friendly, attractive Soviet spy, I mean lover?  It seems like a missed opportunity to me.

 

I have a difficult time imaging Stan working undercover in Arkansas as part of a KKK type organization.  With his accent? How would he fit in?  I live in the south and his accent is obviously not southern.  I can't envision Stan in that undercover role.

I just ran across one of my old post from upthread and was a little surprised at my suggestion in boldface above.  Hmmm.......well, maybe P & E didn't send Stan a girlfriend, but, maybe, some other Russians did. lol I wish they would clear that up, pronto.

What I have wondered about Stan and the Jennings for a long time, is why P & E don't have a plan in place to put some heavy duty pressure on Stan, IN THE EVENT that he does figure out who they are.  Maybe, they have it stashed away secretly, but, if you think of HOW STAN looks.......there are so many things about his relationship with P & E and Henry, that would cause him to be immediately removed from his position, placed under investigation and even lose his job, retirement and career, if P & E's identity were to be discovered by the FBI.  If STAN DID find out, would he take that chance and expose them?  THEY could EASILY blackmail him to hold back, based on what they have on him.  It might be innocent, but, certain things could be slanted and made to appear that he is complicit WITH THEM!  It might make more sense for Stan to keep his mouth shut and let them leave the country quietly. 

I mean, how believable is it that he spent that much time with these people, but, he never knew?  I don't think anyone would believe it. 

Edited May 25, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[Nash]

I've always presumed that Stan is traumatised having either killed someone while undercover or came very close to it. His killing of the KGB agent could show what he did - and managed to cover it up. 

I see him as a counterpoint to P and it may be that he will finally join the dots - being the tortoise to P's hare. 

[sistermagpie]

From the Dead Hand thread:

Quote

 

Bannon:

You and I aren't going to agree about Stan. My view is informed by the real life interviews I've seen with people who lived that life, like the guy who was the basis of the movie "Donnie Brasco". Their marriages nearly always fail, and it tends not to be especially traumatic for them. They compartmentalize, making friends with their subjects, but not getting too worked up when their subjects get whacked. If you differ, That's ok..

 

I do agree about this aspect of it. I think Stan's been a consistent character, but not consistent with that backstory. I think it's important that he was away for a while and just came back to his family etc., but I think it might have been better if there was some other way to do that other than putting him literally undercover with white supremacists (or anybody, really) because his issues don't map onto that with me. That is, it does on paper in terms of Stan having an identity crisis, but his identity crisis seems more in tune with his being away (maybe having him be a soldier might have worked better or something) rather than having lived an entire identity that time. 

Because among other things, that identity ought to still exist and we've seen literally no sign of it. Even when Stan threatened Philip it was completely within the bounds of normal guy behavior. It wasn't like suddenly the violent skinhead came out. The only race issues he's ever had with Aderholdt (who's now a guest at his table with his wife and baby) are those of a normal white guy in the 1980s, not somebody who made himself into a Nazi for three years. Cover identities reflecting the person is central to the show but Stan sloughed his off as if it never existed. So it seems like it never did exist.

There's that moment where Stan casually drops that he was undercover and Philip's eyebrows go up and it reminds us that that seems like it *should* be really important, but the fact is they never have been. Philip really doesn't seem drawn to Stan because he understands undercover life. It seems like the opposite, that Stan is the guy who's exactly what he seems (except in so far that everyone has secrets).

Edited April 3, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

From the Dead Hand thread:

I do agree about this aspect of it. I think Stan's been a consistent character, but not consistent with that backstory. I think it's important that he was away for a while and just came back to his family etc., but I think it might have been better if there was some other way to do that other than putting him literally undercover with white supremacists (or anybody, really) because his issues don't map onto that with me. That is, it does on paper in terms of Stan having an identity crisis, but his identity crisis seems more in tune with his being away (maybe having him be a soldier might have worked better or something) rather than having lived an entire identity that time. 

Because among other things, that identity ought to still exist and we've seen literally no sign of it. Even when Stan threatened Philip it was completely within the bounds of normal guy behavior. It wasn't like suddenly the violent skinhead came out. The only race issues he's ever had with Aderholdt (who's now a guest at his table with his wife and baby) are those of a normal white guy in the 1980s, not somebody who made himself into a Nazi for three years. Cover identities reflecting the person is central to the show but Stan sloughed his off as if it never existed. So it seems like it never did exist.

There's that moment where Stan casually drops that he was undercover and Philip's eyebrows go up and it reminds us that that seems like it *should* be really important, but the fact is they never have been. Philip really doesn't seem drawn to Stan because he understands undercover life. It seems like the opposite, that Stan is the guy who's exactly what he seems (except in so far that everyone has secrets).

Yeah, That's always been my issue with it. His back story is so at odds with how he is portrayed

 It's never made any sense.

[Umbelina]

On 4/18/2017 at 4:53 PM, Umbelina said:

This is a response to some posts mocking Stan in the episode thread...decided to move it here.

Stan isn't that bad.  He imprisoned a bunch of murdering criminal White Supremacists.  He alone figured out that sniper ex soldier's plans, and single handedly stopped him.  He recruited Nina, and yes, he made a bit of a mess about that, but they got good information from her for a while.  He gained Oleg's trust which stopped William from reluctantly giving over a very deadly pathogen.  He's the first one to suspect Martha, and his independent investigation, and talking Aderholt into helping him brought her spying to an end.  He is the only one to suspect Zenaida of being KGB, and what's more, he went about proving it, on his own with Oleg.

He was initially suspicious of Philip and Liz, even searched their car, but his wife pointing out that his PTSD from being embedded so long with creeps was making him paranoid and he needed to realize he was back in real life now.  She pretending to suspect the mailman had it's effect.  He practically had to stop himself from being suspicious, because really, what are the odds embedded KGB agents live across the street?

I don't think this shows incompetence, but rather a highly competent FBI agent with human failings as well. 

Now the entire blackmail thing?  Killing Vlad?  Nearly giving the KGB that disc?  Well, Vlad was a smaller scale version of what the agencies ended up doing on their own, so even though it was horrific, not much worse than what everyone else did.  He didn't give the KGB that disc, but he did steal it...mostly bad.  The blackmail thing?  It's seriously odd if it worked, which it appears to have done...but I don't really find it that odd in the world of spies, or spy stories.  I'm sure he isn't the only one to do something like that.  Then again, I've just been watching Homeland again where blackmail is fairly rampant among the CIA.

I'm quoting myself only because I know I've forgotten a lot of this.

I'll add a bit from the episode thread about Stan's state of mind after being embedded for so long with disgusting people, with his life endanger at any time he might slip.  So, constant tension, no relaxing, and a good case can be made that even a highly trained FBI agent could have PTSD.

He comes home and is still on edge, and has difficulty relating to his own life.  In addition, because of his on-going job with the FBI, he is prohibited from being truthful with his wife or child.  Now before he spent so much time with the white supremacists, he probably handled that as well as many do.  I wish I could find stats to back this up, but I really only have former CIA station chief Bob Baer's comments about the divorce rate for covert agents--it's pretty common.  Finding stats about COVERT agents is tricky for obvious reasons.

Anyway, my point it, Stan had more than the normal stresses in his life, and in his marriage, which his wife comments on and leaves him for, and attends EST to discuss.  She craves openness and being "real" which are two things Stan can't do.  One reason is confidentiality of course, but the other, which he expressed to someone (Oleg?  Nina?  Phil?)  He can't tell her the truth because it's too horrifying to share with a civilian.  The ability to be a bit more open with Nina was, I think, a large part of her emotional appeal.

Now of course, if he's being fooled by Renee?  He probably really will look incompetent, and to me, that's too bad.  I keep wondering if we might be more sympathetic to Stan if he were a handsome guy?  Either way, if Renee is using him, how could he recover from that, aside from the likely bullet in her head.  Talk about a loss of confidence!

Also, I do still think the FBI has their doubts about Stan because of Oleg AND Nina.  Maybe that's why he changed departments?

[SunnyBeBe]

I'm open to seeing Stan get a real shocked look, discovering who P & E are. And even about Renee....not sure who she is, but, if she's gotten secrets, I'd welcome it.  It's not that I dislike Stan, the character, but, I'm not a fan either.  One thing that bothers me is that he seems to be quite socially inept.  It's like he doesn't even pick up on social cues, but, yet he's a brilliant, FBI agent, who has worked deep undercover.  It's pretty wild, imo.  He seemed more comfortable with a 12 year-old than adults.  But, he seems to have hit it off with Renee.  So, I suppose that it was just fate or someone knew what type Stan would feel comfortable with.  

It seems too easy for Renee to just pop up and be playing Stan....really? It just seems too predictable.  Possibly a red herring. 

Edited April 3, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[Umbelina]

It's the one thing that will REALLY make Stan look completely stupid though, if Renee is a spy and he didn't do due diligence.  Real spies, especially those who have been covert?  Suspect everyone.  If he didn't?  I'm not about to defend him.  If he tried and failed?  That will just depend on how hard and effectively he attempted to ensure she was clean.

[SusanSunflower]

I gather there are women attracted to macho men in law enforcement ... a possible reason for knock-out gorgeous Renee to hook up with Stan.  Her interest in the hockey player and wife (relative celebrities and exotic fish) may be a continuation of enjoying the cool things that come from being involved with Stan and be simple brain-picking (coupled perhaps with Renee noticing Elizabeth's apparent undue interest in her (Renee) ... why is that woman always listening to my conversations???   Still -- Three Years Later -- still with Stan the stuck ... I'd probably have moved on ... 

Edited April 3, 2018 by SusanSunflower
undo/undue

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

It's the one thing that will REALLY make Stan look completely stupid though, if Renee is a spy and he didn't do due diligence.  Real spies, especially those who have been covert?  Suspect everyone.  If he didn't?  I'm not about to defend him.  If he tried and failed?  That will just depend on how hard and effectively he attempted to ensure she was clean.

At this point, after he was right there for the whole Martha story, you'd think he wouldn't date anyone without checking her social security number for death records.

[sistermagpie]

Quote

 

Bannon:

I actually sometimes speculate that this show would have been better if Stan had never met the Jennings. Like if they lived a couple blocks apart, as a means of providing contrast, with Stan driving past the Jennings house on occasion, or vice versa, without them ever becoming more than very passing acquaintances. I really don't think the scenes of Beemens and Jennings interacting as friends has added much to the show.

 

They add less than I would have thought they would, I admit. I think because they never dug into them. Stan's never supposed to have had much of a relationship with Paige and Elizabeth so that wouldn't really give us anything. His relationship with Henry was fine, but I think people often tried to read it as something that it wasn't. That is, it seemed like it was more about Henry trying out Stan as a role model, which comments on the multiple identities stuff and comments on the USA/USSR divide. And Stan was  choosing the easier relationship with the little boy across the street instead of focusing on the less enjoyable work of re-connecting to his own son. But it wasn't, that I ever saw, some big threat to the Jennings or some switch of allegiances on Henry's part. Or even on Stan's part. He enjoyed time with Henry because it was easy, but Henry wasn't replacing Matthew. It might still eventually be important, but I wouldn't buy it as some result of Henry being oh so very close to Stan in ways he isn't to his own father, because even that one conversation in Tchaikovsky stands up against any of the longer Stan/Henry convos in terms of easy familiarity and warmth.

The real relationship that was obviously set up to be important was the one with Philip. Presumably they set up Stan as having been undercover because they wanted a vibe of how they were secretly the same, but what I see being played is that they're completely different. That Stan is the kind of guy who *doesn't* understand that mindset. If he actually sensed anything "off" about Philip when they met it wasn't that he recognized a fellow undercover but that he saw a totally different species.

A lot of their relationship is just like that scene where Stan comes to Philip's hotel room in S1. Stan talks at Philip and Philip is always there to listen but he really very rarely gives much back. I can think of basically one scene where Philip tells Stan that getting a kid away from the other parent can be helpful where Philip seems to be eager to talk himself. (I think that's the same ep where Stan says he was undercover and Philip has a moment of surprise or something, but it doesn't go anywhere.) 

I mean, there are moments in the Stan/Philip relationship that really work. I like the whole thing of Stan thinking Philip was having an affair with Sandra and Philip having to grovel to him and be a wimp. But I never get the feeling that Philip really gets much out of his relationship with Stan besides a racquetball partner and maybe a potential safety net for the kids. And what Stan gets from Philip seems like something he could probably get from any guy who seems safe because Stan feels kind of superior to him because he wasn't in the business and seemed a bit wimpy.

Honestly, the real Beeman friendship that had potential was Philip and Sandra in their brief conversations after EST. They seemed to organically have a lot more in common and like they spoke the same language. (Heh--spoke the same language thanks to Philip's training.) It would make sense of they ran into each other again now that Philip kind of has Sandra's marriage from S1. Not that I'm pining for a lot of Philip and Sandra, but the natural sympathy between them seems a really marked contrast compared to Stan/Philip or Elizabeth/Sandra.

[Bannon]

10 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

They add less than I would have thought they would, I admit. I think because they never dug into them. Stan's never supposed to have had much of a relationship with Paige and Elizabeth so that wouldn't really give us anything. His relationship with Henry was fine, but I think people often tried to read it as something that it wasn't. That is, it seemed like it was more about Henry trying out Stan as a role model, which comments on the multiple identities stuff and comments on the USA/USSR divide. And Stan was  choosing the easier relationship with the little boy across the street instead of focusing on the less enjoyable work of re-connecting to his own son. But it wasn't, that I ever saw, some big threat to the Jennings or some switch of allegiances on Henry's part. Or even on Stan's part. He enjoyed time with Henry because it was easy, but Henry wasn't replacing Matthew. It might still eventually be important, but I wouldn't buy it as some result of Henry being oh so very close to Stan in ways he isn't to his own father, because even that one conversation in Tchaikovsky stands up against any of the longer Stan/Henry convos in terms of easy familiarity and warmth.

The real relationship that was obviously set up to be important was the one with Philip. Presumably they set up Stan as having been undercover because they wanted a vibe of how they were secretly the same, but what I see being played is that they're completely different. That Stan is the kind of guy who *doesn't* understand that mindset. If he actually sensed anything "off" about Philip when they met it wasn't that he recognized a fellow undercover but that he saw a totally different species.

A lot of their relationship is just like that scene where Stan comes to Philip's hotel room in S1. Stan talks at Philip and Philip is always there to listen but he really very rarely gives much back. I can think of basically one scene where Philip tells Stan that getting a kid away from the other parent can be helpful where Philip seems to be eager to talk himself. (I think that's the same ep where Stan says he was undercover and Philip has a moment of surprise or something, but it doesn't go anywhere.) 

I mean, there are moments in the Stan/Philip relationship that really work. I like the whole thing of Stan thinking Philip was having an affair with Sandra and Philip having to grovel to him and be a wimp. But I never get the feeling that Philip really gets much out of his relationship with Stan besides a racquetball partner and maybe a potential safety net for the kids. And what Stan gets from Philip seems like something he could probably get from any guy who seems safe because Stan feels kind of superior to him because he wasn't in the business and seemed a bit wimpy.

Honestly, the real Beeman friendship that had potential was Philip and Sandra in their brief conversations after EST. They seemed to organically have a lot more in common and like they spoke the same language. (Heh--spoke the same language thanks to Philip's training.) It would make sense of they ran into each other again now that Philip kind of has Sandra's marriage from S1. Not that I'm pining for a lot of Philip and Sandra, but the natural sympathy between them seems a really marked contrast compared to Stan/Philip or Elizabeth/Sandra.

Again, I don't know where to distribute the blame among writing and acting, but I've been watching this show for years now, and Stan's scenes have done very little to add to my enjoyment, and at times have been almost painful to watch. Just nothing has rang true for me. It puzzles me.

[Erin9]

It’s hard to judge the relevance of Stan and the Jennings relationship until the show is over. (Actually- I could say that about a lot of aspects of the show. lol )

But, right now, I don’t think there was loads of value add to a lot of their interactions beyond certain things like: will Stan say something relevant or will he get suspicious? There was the irony of their constant interaction. Some tension. But, in the end, he’ll find out he was lied to by people he spent so much time with. That alone is pretty big. 

I wasn’t a big fan of Henry/Stan. So far, it doesn’t seem like it was that important from either a plot, story or character perspective. I could see a point, just not sure if it was really worth the time. Sort of like Paige/Matthew.,

Philip/Stan tend to be pretty interesting one on one imo. Easily the most interesting of any Jennings/Beeman relationship at all. Philip got little bits of info from Stan a time or two. Sometimes it was interesting listening to Stan talk about his job to Philip- b/c he thought he was talking to an outsider. Or when he confessed his affair. When Stan flipped b/c he thought Sandra/Philip were involved- that was good. I think their interaction usually told you more about Stan than anything. It didn’t feel unnecessary to me though.,

Comparing the 2 marriages early on made for good TV imo.

I think Philip likes Stan well enough now, considers him a friend- as much as he can under the circumstances. He was certainly worried about who Renee really was on his behalf. 

I found the little interaction between Sandra and Philip to be so compelling too.  I just loved her sad confession that she didn’t think anyone had ever really known her. Philip could actually almost say the same. Elizabeth comes closest. 

Stan could be such a jerk. His early attitude towards Oleg was something else. He so personally hated him. It was like he enjoyed the prospect of bringing him down. 

Regarding his ability to read people, seeing that something was off about zinaida was probably the most believable to me. Martha- aside from the dream where we saw that her moving files was buried in his subconscious, I didn’t see much to go on. That I recall anyway. Besides the obvious access to Gaad’s office.

[Umbelina]

I think the character of Stan added a great deal to this show.  I certainly don't think the writing for him has been great lately, ESPECIALLY this nonsense about Renee (Is she or isn't she?) crap.  Then again, to me last year was mostly crappy plot only writing for just about everyone on screen.

However, having Stan be a neighbor has allowed a lot of story to happen, and gave us an "in" to the FBI side of things in so many stories.  We would need some character to do that anyway, and at least they fleshed Stan out and he wasn't just some exposition guy. 

Story examples I'm talking about? 

• The Martha story was much more intense because we also knew Stan. 
• The story where Stan was staking out and Elizabeth was eventually shot, raised the tension and made for a great episode. 
• Stan's dissolving marriage allowed a bonding of sorts that was real with Philip, since he was also having issues, and face it, Philip needed an actual friend in his world.  Stan was that, but the layers were complicated and difficult, and to me, compelling since Philip was also deceiving him. 
• The above eventually led to EST and our glimpses into Philip's childhood and traumas.  It also led to a pretty great scene with Philip having a bioweapon in his pocket while Stan knocked him around.  BECAUSE they had been friends and were neighbors.
• The whole dinner with the Pastor/wife that Stan crashed was just one more example of some great TV, BECAUSE of Stan's character.
• The Nina/Stan story was fascinating.  In the beginning she WAS a good mole for Stan, she was being honest with him, and did give him valuable intelligence.  He recruited and ran her pretty successfully.  She was too savvy to trust him once the blackmail aspect waned, and she did seduce him, at first, to try to ensure he WOULD eventually let her go into witness protection.  Then Arkady gave her a medal and the guilt flooded in, and her patriotism, and she turned double agent, the seduction now straight up spying.
• Because of this, we got the fabulous Stan/Oleg relationship.  Two basically good guys, loyal to their countries, but not mindless soldiers doing whatever the bureaucracies ordered of them.  It was compelling TV, and very believable to me from both actors.
• The tension that resulted from this with Gaad, his friendship with Philip eventually leading to Gaad's accidental death.

I could go on, because there is much more, but saying Stan was a waste as a character isn't true for me.

As far as the stuff in the other thread about Stan not being undercover material, or the FBI not training him about how to be undercover?

First, of course he had training, probably intense training, especially about who the players were, common norms for groups like that so he would fit in, I'm sure reams of reading their ideology and memorizing extensive backgrounds about each known member of the group he was infiltrating.  Their backgrounds, marriages, affairs, kids, moms and dads, down to problems they had in high school.  He probably knew which aftershave they used.  He was trained.

Also, and I don't think this is much of a fan-wank, because the show made it perfectly clear in scenes with his son, with his wife, and with Philip that Stan came back a DIFFERENT MAN than he was before his harrowing years inside a violent White Supremacist group, which we know resulted a few murders, and some killing on Stan's part as well.

He came back, suspicious of everyone, not at all the same guy he was before that assignment.  When he went in he obviously had the skills and competence to accomplish the FBI goals, it was a successful mission, VERY successful, not only did he stay alive, but it resulted in multiple arrests, etc. 

Yes, now Stan is socially awkward in many ways, in many ways, that experience changed him forever, he hasn't just been sitting in a office or arresting tax evaders or checking Russian wire taps, he's been on the edge of death and discovery for years.  You don't just shake that off immediately.  We've watched him adjust to life in the real world, not always well, because that isn't an instant thing.  He was susceptible to Nina, IMO, because he longed for "real" and very much longed for "love" as well as sex.  With his marriage that wasn't possible anymore for him, how could he actually be "real" with his wife, as he told Philip, he couldn't possibly share himself with his wife anymore, he wouldn't and couldn't put her through that terror, and now he's in counter-intelligence and prohibited from discussing most of his waking life with her.

 

Anyway, unlike others, I really didn't care for this actor, but he's eventually grown on me a bit, but the role?  Isn't a cookie cutter super hero FBI genius, he's a real guy, with real issues, including most likely PTSD, and a fully realized person, with faults and strengths, with success at work, and massive messes at work.  He read as "real" to me.  We've seen that he has good instincts, he sensed that Russian defector was a plant, and busted her, he figured out the guy that was going to kill that delegation from the roof, by footwork and putting in the hours, he figured out Martha.  He's not a bad agent for being fooled by the Jennings for so long.  At all.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Umbelina
y

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I wasn’t a big fan of Henry/Stan. So far, it doesn’t seem like it was that important from either a plot, story or character perspective. I could see a point, just not sure if it was really worth the time. Sort of like Paige/Matthew.,

 

Yes, like you said it comes down to how the whole thing ends up. Paige / Matthew seemed to just serve the straightforward plot point of Paige saying that she tried to be "normal" so she could embrace her unique isolation and then become a spy. Stan/Henry honestly a lot of the time seemed like the writers simply not knowing what else to do with Henry. I think a couple of times they suggested that they thought about whether to use it in some way that connected to the spy plot so it seems like this pair just occasionally gave them a chance to show us those characters. Stan tries to get Henry to talk about Paige/Matthew. Henry confirms that he likes a girl named Chris that's being made into a mystery that isn't really worth the effort. Stan gets someone to tell that he doesn't trust anyone. Stan gets to think about how he met Sandra. Henry gets to tell us he's growing up and wondering about sex. All without the added baggage Philip was carrying around.

10 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Philip/Stan tend to be pretty interesting one on one imo. Easily the most interesting of any Jennings/Beeman relationship at all

Yes, there's definitely things that have happened in their relationship that I liked. It's just for me it wasn't so much about what they meant to each other in a way that was leading up to how betrayed Stan would feel. Like even when Philip was paranoid about Renee that seemed part of his general paranoia and desire to protect everyone. As he said himself, he didn't want Stan to become another Martha--Philip cares about people in his life. Not that I don't see any connection between him and Stan. But Stan finding out doesn't feel as intimate as I would have expected. Maybe because Philip never seems tempted to cross any honestly lines with Stan himself. Though frankly that might just go back to the show's stubborn refusal to let us know Philip's backstory in any depth.

17 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Stan could be such a jerk. His early attitude towards Oleg was something else. He so personally hated him. It was like he enjoyed the prospect of bringing him down. 

 

This is one of the things that kind of dominates my Stan thoughts even with Philip. Not that he was always an asshole to him, but there was especially a while there where Stan just had such a casual arrogance with him that it was the dominant note in the relationship--and that's not a complaint; I bought it. It started to feel like that was a big thing of how Stan understood Philip, that he felt safe with him because he really believed he was wimpy, despite being able to also turn on a dime and think he was having an affair with his wife. (A mistake he rather backhandedly apologized for before more genuinely revealing his vulnerability.) There's a lot of stuff that Philip did for Stan over the years. Again--that wasn't just on Stan. Philip never asked Stan for anything and there wasn't really much Stan could give. But it still made for a pretty one-sided relationship that maybe intentionally kept Stan convinced that Philip was harmless. But at the same time, I think the idea there was clearly that it was through that relationship (with the Jennings in general, and particularly Philip and Henry too) that Stan healed a bit and was able to rejoin the world (even if Renee seems like a lame expression of that so far).

That said, I mostly like Stan as an agent. He has often been the person who has the right instincts and that makes him very believable as a foe for the Jennings. Up until now he just really hasn't any reason to suspect them and the reasons he has to be tied to them emotionally were just reinforced. I think it's only a good thing that Stan has a weakness around these spies (particularly Philip) that goes directly to his Achilles heel as a character, his inability to feel connected to people. I like the idea that Stan *wants* to see the Jennings as good people because it will be a genuine personal loss to him if he's not. Plus I think it's actually not a knock on him as an agent if what he sees of Philip at home makes him less likely to imagine him as a spy. To make the obvious Breaking Bad reference, Hank was not stupid for not realizing the brother-in-law who'd been an impotent egghead sad sack for over 15 years was the meth king he was chasing. It was only natural he was would factor all that information into his thinking on the matter. And with Philip there's even less evidence to the contrary for Stan to worry about. 

[Erin9]

@Umbelina- Agreed. Stan’s character has been so important for so many reasons. So much tension and story would just have been lost without him. You articulated it so well. 

[Bannon]

I guess I just don't buy the character, mostly due to the bio they gave him. It isn't because he hasn't detected the true identities of Phil and Liz. That isn't the point at all. It is because at no point have I ever observed the Stan shown on the screen, and thought, "That's the sort of emotional intelligence and manipulative skills a person would have, if they worked highly successfully for years as an FBI undercover agent". 

(Edit) To add on, it was the Nina and Stan relationship that made my eyes roll so hard I developed a headache. No, I do not believe for one second that someone with Stan's bio would become sentimental about Nina, because he was having sex with her, and thus become compromised. It kind of totally destroyed, along with how it was portrayed that he was traumatized by his divorce, whatever ability I had to gain anything entertaining from his character.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Bannon
Additional thoughts

[Umbelina]

Stan wasn't just "having sex" with Nina.

She was his first intimate and honest relationship in years, he fell completely in love with her.   She was a trained KGB agent, who knew how to spot weaknesses and vulnerabilities and needs.  Stan certainly wasn't the first, and will not be the last, intelligent man seduced romantically by a beautiful spy, who appeared to love sex with him, appreciate him, depend on him, love him.

When she was in danger, those feelings came out even more for Stan, Gaad's casual acceptance of her likely death was chilling to him. 

He was like a man who had been crawling through a desert for years, and Nina, as a trained agent, was able to appear to be the oasis he longed for.  He could actually be intimate with her, share quite a bit with her, his experiences wouldn't horrify her, as they would have horrified his wife.  He could, and in fact HAD to discuss work with her, true, not completely honestly, but still, he was able to share himself finally. 

If he hadn't just been in hell with the White Supremacists, if he didn't have to keep most of his life from his wife and son, if he hadn't gone through the divorce, would he have been as vulnerable?  Probably not.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Umbelina

[Bannon]

People with Stan's bio don't try to have honest relationships with their targets, and fall in love with them. I don't believe it for a nanosecond. 

[Umbelina]

He didn't "just" do it though.  The writers set up a very long arc about Stan's past, things that could lead him to do just that. 

Also, Nina had skills to accomplish those goals.

This wasn't some "out of the blue" story.

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

If he hadn't just been in hell with the White Supremacists, if he didn't have to keep most of his life from his wife and son, if he hadn't gone through the divorce, would he have been as vulnerable?  Probably not.

To me, this is why I just mentally in my mind change White Supremacists undercover to something else, some other traumatizing police assignment that had nothing to do with being undercover. Because the story as itself totally works for me. I like that it's set up how Stan's so alienated from everyone and from himself. I especially like how one of the main things Nina seems to offer him is the identity of hero. I love all that. I just don't think it has anything to do with being an undercover White Supremacist. The two things undermine each other to me, and since the undercover stuff was before the show started anyway, and is barely referenced, it's not a problem for me.

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

To me, this is why I just mentally in my mind change White Supremacists undercover to something else, some other traumatizing police assignment that had nothing to do with being undercover. Because the story as itself totally works for me. I like that it's set up how Stan's so alienated from everyone and from himself. I especially like how one of the main things Nina seems to offer him is the identity of hero. I love all that. I just don't think it has anything to do with being an undercover White Supremacist. The two things undermine each other to me, and since the undercover stuff was before the show started anyway, and is barely referenced, it's not a problem for me.

Oh, I think it's been referenced a lot.  I'm particularly thinking of a scene with Philip and Stan drinking at some bar, and Philip says something like "Bad?" and Stan just breaks my heart with his physical reaction, I can't remember his words, probably something like "you can't imagine."

I also think that experience is WHY Stan is so alienated, and he JUST got back from that when the show began.  He met Nina in the NEXT episode.

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Oh, I think it's been referenced a lot.  I'm particularly thinking of a scene with Philip and Stan drinking at some bar, and Philip says something like "Bad?" and Stan just breaks my heart with his physical reaction, I can't remember his words, probably something like "you can't imagine."

 

Yeah, but that refers to him having a traumatizing assignment, which I do think is important to his character. He's seen bad things. Had to do bad things. That's not specific to the undercover personality. In fact I might expect that guy to have enjoyed a lot of aspects of the job, not talk about it as just something bad that happened to him that he had to go through. 

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

He didn't "just" do it though.  The writers set up a very long arc about Stan's past, things that could lead him to do just that. 

Also, Nina had skills to accomplish those goals.

This wasn't some "out of the blue" story.

I don't believe the arc would lead to that. That's my point. You can't have led Stan's life without a significant degree of sociopathy. People without a significant degree of sociopathy don't agree to a job that entails cutting off nearly all contact with one's family for years. People with a significant degree of sociopathy don't fall in love with Nina, and compromise themselves.

We aren't going to agree about this. That's o.k..

[sistermagpie]

Another thing that strikes me about Stan's backstory is that usually when he talks about his other work for the FBI it's about bank robbers (which is connected to the white supremacists, but they just talk about it in terms of the banks being robbed). And not just in the sense that he doesn't want to talk about his time undercover. He's not an expert on radical idealism and when he started in counterintelligence he didn't approach it like an undercover agent studying his target. In his relationship with Nina he seemed a confirmed tourist when it came to Russian culture and language.

Not saying I was disappointed that we didn't see that, but they didn't take that as an opportunity to parallel undercover Philip and Elizabeth or whatever.

Edited April 12, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

Noah Emmerich Won’t Miss Playing Stan, But ‘It’s Really Hard to Say Good-bye’ to The Americans

Quote

Noah Emmerich, the actor who plays Agent Beeman, took some time to talk to Vulture about how it feels to finally reach the conclusion of the series, how frustrating it has been for Stan to remain in the dark about the Jennings, why he was “incredibly surprised” by the way it all ends, and whether Stan is actually good at his job.

Quote

Showrunners Joe Weisberg and Joel Fields have said they knew the ending of the show from the beginning. Did they clue you in or was that something you didn’t know until you got your final scripts?
I didn’t know until I got the final script. I was happy not to know because once you know, you can’t unknow. It does inform your sense of character and self in a way that maybe is inappropriate. I was happy not to know. And I was incredibly surprised by the ending. It was not what I expected it to be. I had a few scenarios running around in my head of what it could be but that was not one of them. And I love it. I’m really happy with it.

Hopefully that's good news!

It's goes on to get Noah's ideas about many things we're discussed here, is he good at his job, etc.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Umbelina

[hellmouse]

I have been watching S1 again, and had forgotten just how callous (and frankly, stupid) it was in ep 9, Safe House, when

Spoiler

Stan killed Vlad in retribution for Amador's death.

First of all, it made it seem like he and Amador were lifelong friends, when he they had just recently met. Second, it made Amador seem like some kind of flawed but charming hero (via stupid flashbacks) when he was not charming, but annoying, and not even that good as his job (IMO). Third,

Spoiler

Gaad planned an illegal operation to capture and kill the Soviet Rezident (WHAT?!) and after first refusing to participate, Stan not only joins but disobeys the orders of the op and tells them to grab Vlad. And eventually he taunts him with fast food and kills him. 

It showed a really mean (and IMO reckless and stupid) side of Stan that I had forgotten about over the past few seasons. It makes me hope that he is in no way a hero at the end of the series. If he even mentions Amador it will annoy me. 

[duVerre]

On 4/11/2018 at 2:58 PM, Umbelina said:

I think the character of Stan added a great deal to this show.  I certainly don't think the writing for him has been great lately, ESPECIALLY this nonsense about Renee (Is she or isn't she?) crap.  Then again, to me last year was mostly crappy plot only writing for just about everyone on screen.

However, having Stan be a neighbor has allowed a lot of story to happen, and gave us an "in" to the FBI side of things in so many stories.  We would need some character to do that anyway, and at least they fleshed Stan out and he wasn't just some exposition guy. 

Story examples I'm talking about? 

• The Martha story was much more intense because we also knew Stan. 
• The story where Stan was staking out and Elizabeth was eventually shot, raised the tension and made for a great episode. 
• Stan's dissolving marriage allowed a bonding of sorts that was real with Philip, since he was also having issues, and face it, Philip needed an actual friend in his world.  Stan was that, but the layers were complicated and difficult, and to me, compelling since Philip was also deceiving him. 
• The above eventually led to EST and our glimpses into Philip's childhood and traumas.  It also led to a pretty great scene with Philip having a bioweapon in his pocket while Stan knocked him around.  BECAUSE they had been friends and were neighbors.
• The whole dinner with the Pastor/wife that Stan crashed was just one more example of some great TV, BECAUSE of Stan's character.
• The Nina/Stan story was fascinating.  In the beginning she WAS a good mole for Stan, she was being honest with him, and did give him valuable intelligence.  He recruited and ran her pretty successfully.  She was too savvy to trust him once the blackmail aspect waned, and she did seduce him, at first, to try to ensure he WOULD eventually let her go into witness protection.  Then Arkady gave her a medal and the guilt flooded in, and her patriotism, and she turned double agent, the seduction now straight up spying.
• Because of this, we got the fabulous Stan/Oleg relationship.  Two basically good guys, loyal to their countries, but not mindless soldiers doing whatever the bureaucracies ordered of them.  It was compelling TV, and very believable to me from both actors.
• The tension that resulted from this with Gaad, his friendship with Philip eventually leading to Gaad's accidental death.

I could go on, because there is much more, but saying Stan was a waste as a character isn't true for me.

As far as the stuff in the other thread about Stan not being undercover material, or the FBI not training him about how to be undercover?

First, of course he had training, probably intense training, especially about who the players were, common norms for groups like that so he would fit in, I'm sure reams of reading their ideology and memorizing extensive backgrounds about each known member of the group he was infiltrating.  Their backgrounds, marriages, affairs, kids, moms and dads, down to problems they had in high school.  He probably knew which aftershave they used.  He was trained.

Also, and I don't think this is much of a fan-wank, because the show made it perfectly clear in scenes with his son, with his wife, and with Philip that Stan came back a DIFFERENT MAN than he was before his harrowing years inside a violent White Supremacist group, which we know resulted a few murders, and some killing on Stan's part as well.

He came back, suspicious of everyone, not at all the same guy he was before that assignment.  When he went in he obviously had the skills and competence to accomplish the FBI goals, it was a successful mission, VERY successful, not only did he stay alive, but it resulted in multiple arrests, etc. 

Yes, now Stan is socially awkward in many ways, in many ways, that experience changed him forever, he hasn't just been sitting in a office or arresting tax evaders or checking Russian wire taps, he's been on the edge of death and discovery for years.  You don't just shake that off immediately.  We've watched him adjust to life in the real world, not always well, because that isn't an instant thing.  He was susceptible to Nina, IMO, because he longed for "real" and very much longed for "love" as well as sex.  With his marriage that wasn't possible anymore for him, how could he actually be "real" with his wife, as he told Philip, he couldn't possibly share himself with his wife anymore, he wouldn't and couldn't put her through that terror, and now he's in counter-intelligence and prohibited from discussing most of his waking life with her.

 

Anyway, unlike others, I really didn't care for this actor, but he's eventually grown on me a bit, but the role?  Isn't a cookie cutter super hero FBI genius, he's a real guy, with real issues, including most likely PTSD, and a fully realized person, with faults and strengths, with success at work, and massive messes at work.  He read as "real" to me.  We've seen that he has good instincts, he sensed that Russian defector was a plant, and busted her, he figured out the guy that was going to kill that delegation from the roof, by footwork and putting in the hours, he figured out Martha.  He's not a bad agent for being fooled by the Jennings for so long.  At all.

Love your post, Umbelina, though I think Noah Emmerich's a terrific actor. Not an extroverted or flamboyant one but quiet, grounded and believable.  Incidentally, he went to New York's great Method School, the Neighborhood Playhouse. It's incredibly hard to get into that place (I'm one of the tens of thousands who tried), and almost no one makes it through the two-year-programme because they're told to leave before they do. Emmerich actually graduated. 

[Ellaria]

10 hours ago, hellmouse said:

It showed a really mean (and IMO reckless and stupid) side of Stan that I had forgotten about over the past few seasons. It makes me hope that he is in no way a hero at the end of the series. If he even mentions Amador it will annoy me. 

I think that there will be no heroes and no villains in the end. This show doesn’t deal with absolutes.

However, I’d much rather see Mean Stan rather than Emasculated Stan, which is what we have now. Yes, yes, I know that Stan went thru terrible times doing undercover work and much of his story since then is him trying to cope and trust. Once Nina left, Stan became a bore. I’m not as impressed by his story arc with Oleg  as others are.

Now, he is happily married to Renee who will, undoubtedly, play a role in the grand climax of the show. Aderholt has been doing most of the work looking for the Russian illegals of late. He pulls Stan back in because they “are this close” to finding these illegals. Stan is back on car duty and gives impassioned toasts on a Turkey Day. He began as an interesting, conflicted character. With four episodes left, I’m hoping that Stan will surprise me.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[Umbelina]

Stan's been a very good FBI agent, who has been fooled by VERY well trained and long-embedded KGB officers. 

Dismissing his FBI years of service because of that is simplistic.  He had many, MANY successes. 

Will this devastate and infuriate and hurt and embarrass him?  Of course.

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Stan's been a very good FBI agent, who has been fooled by VERY well trained and long-embedded KGB officers. 

 

Aderholt's been fooled by them too at this point. It seems like he's probably met them plenty of times by this point and noticed nothing amiss.

[Umbelina]

Yeah, but Aderholt didn't regularly have dinner with them, so there is that...

I just think dismissing Stan's entire career is simplistic, he's a VERY good agent, probably with more convictions under his belt than most agents, and he got a lot of information from Nina, until she turned triple agent as well.  Oleg trusted him enough to stop that chemical weapon too (for a while anyway.)  He had 24 White Supremacists indicted.  He stopped that assassination, he was the only one to suspect that female Russian defector, and spearheaded her arrest.

He's done a lot of great work, one failure, no matter how significant, doesn't make him a useless or bad FBI man.

ETA, that's how I see Stan as a show character.  I have no idea how Stan's bosses will see it, but considering what happened to Gaad?  Probably not well, and it may even put Stan under a cloud of suspicion he will never get out from under.  I'm certain Stan will feel it's very close to unforgivable and a huge, gigantic failure as well.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Umbelina

[Ellaria]

I, for one, am not dismissing the totality of Stan’s character. He may well have MANY successes. Unfortunately, we have not seen that much of it. IMO, we have been told more than we have seen.

Frankly, different viewers can perceive characters in different ways. There is not one correct lens with which to view any character on this show.

I think that the writers dropped the ball with development of his character. I am no longer particularly interested in him and the role that he will play in the end game or whether it makes him sad, angry or disappointed. 

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I think that the writers dropped the ball with development of his character. I am no longer particularly interested in him and the role that he will play in the end game or whether it makes him sad, angry or disappointed. 

It's interesting to compare him to Hank on Breaking Bad--not that the two have to be the same. But when I think of Stan's arc with the Jennings it seems like it's mostly that Stan started out alienated from his family, then he lost that family, then he sort of glommed on to the Jennings family like a latchkey kid from next door. But eventually I guess the helped him get healthier and when he met this other woman he was ready to be married. Only that last bit is just strange because his marriage is such a non-story and his wife doesn't seem like a real person.

So I know they're of course writing toward a big revelation for Stan but I honestly don't feel like it'll be that emotional. It depends on the writing, of course, but like with Hank it was clear what finding out about Walt meant for Hank. With Stan it sometimes seems like Philip is his friend the same way Renee is his wife. He shows up to be the guy Stan talks to or the guy who helps Stan when he needs it but I still don't know exactly how Stan sees Philip.

For instance, on BB Hank and Walt were brothers in law for years where Walt was a very specific type of man who was not like Hank--at least that's how it seemed to Hank. That was a big reason for Hank not ever suspecting him. I'm not sure about Stan. Back in S1 I thought oh, Stan likes Philip because he seems so unconnected to the work. When Philip groveled over Stan accusing him of sleeping with Sandra I thought yeah, Philip is playing that up. But I'm not really sure how Stan sees Philip exactly. Stan has said he can't trust anybody so we can't expect him to just deny any doubts. But I can't really imagine how Stan's world will be rocked here. Obviously it should be, but after 6 seasons I feel like I should have more specific than idea. Maybe I'll change my mind once I see it and it comes into focus, though.

[Ellaria]

I cannot compare Hank and Stan. Hank was my favorite character on BB and, IMO, was brilliantly written. While portions of their arcs are similar, some of the singular best moments in the show involved Hank. I only wish that there was more of Hank in Stan.

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I, for one, am not dismissing the totality of Stan’s character. He may well have MANY successes. Unfortunately, we have not seen that much of it. IMO, we have been told more than we have seen.

Frankly, different viewers can perceive characters in different ways. There is not one correct lens with which to view any character on this show.

I think that the writers dropped the ball with development of his character. I am no longer particularly interested in him and the role that he will play in the end game or whether it makes him sad, angry or disappointed. 

I agree that we all certainly see him differently!  That's fine.

I do think we've seen his some of his successes though.  True, his boss only talked about his 24 indictments of the White Nationalists he busted, but we did see him bust Zenaida, and we saw him, and him alone, bust the guy with the rifle on the roof, preventing assassinations.  For a while he did get inside information from Nina too, and he probably would have continued to do so if he didn't emotionally kill Vlad and turn her against him.  He forged a bond with Oleg as well, and that too paid off.  That's a LOT in one career, all on it's own.  If it matters, the crime he was investigating before  pulled back into counter intelligence?  Someone in the episode thread said that one played out to be a huge win for the FBI as well, rather a famous case.  He was also the ONLY one to suspect Martha, thus ending her spying forever.

Zenaida alone was what one calls "making your career."  After a case like that?  You can skate as an agent, it's HUGE.

1 hour ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I cannot compare Hank and Stan. Hank was my favorite character on BB and, IMO, was brilliantly written. While portions of their arcs are similar, some of the singular best moments in the show involved Hank. I only wish that there was more of Hank in Stan.

Yeah, Hank was great, it's sad that they didn't give Stan as much, and the stupid Renee mystery just buried him under a pile of "who CARES?"

[Ellaria]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yeah, Hank was great, it's sad that they didn't give Stan as much, and the stupid Renee mystery just buried him under a pile of "who CARES?"

I hate to keep blaming poor Renee for everything but I agree. Stan's story has become, in large part, about Renee and the "is she or isn't she" question. It is not a fitting final few hours for what began as a complex character.

[Umbelina]

Just now, Ellaria Sand said:

I hate to keep blaming poor Renee for everything but I agree. Stan's story has become, in large part, about Renee and the "is she or isn't she" question. It is not a fitting final few hours for what began as a complex character.

Agree so much.

Also, leaving the FBI out of things for so long was stupid, we couldn't help but wonder if they were all idiots not to notice all the murders and connections, and that was another waste of energy.

Pacing has been so off for so long on this show, which used to simply excel at that.

Hopefully the last 4 episodes bring it all together and rock it.

[sistermagpie]

12 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I cannot compare Hank and Stan. Hank was my favorite character on BB and, IMO, was brilliantly written. While portions of their arcs are similar, some of the singular best moments in the show involved Hank. I only wish that there was more of Hank in Stan.

I was originally thinking, "Oh, they're different because Stan's stories were mostly his own..." and then I remembered wait, so were Hank's. He had a whole that that was a real counterpoint to Walt's. 

Maybe part of it goes back to that other question about Stan undercover. It feels like it's there to make Stan connected to Philip without knowing it, a bit like Hank and Walt, but it never played out in any way. And not just because Stan wasn't literally on the case of the Illegals the whole time like Hank was after Heisenberg. It was like Stan and Philip's scenes together *should* have an electric undercurrent but imo they honestly don't. 

[Ellaria]

1 minute ago, sistermagpie said:

It was like Stan and Philip's scenes together *should* have an electric undercurrent but imo they honestly don't. 

They had that electricity in the first few episodes. Then it fizzled out. Now they are beer-drinking and racquetball buddies and all tension has evaporated. Philip is still wary of Stan but he is too depressed, distracted and conflicted right now to make it a primary concern. Meanwhile, Stan is sidetracked with Renee's career opportunities.

[sistermagpie]

58 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

They had that electricity in the first few episodes. Then it fizzled out. Now they are beer-drinking and racquetball buddies and all tension has evaporated. Philip is still wary of Stan but he is too depressed, distracted and conflicted right now to make it a primary concern. Meanwhile, Stan is sidetracked with Renee's career opportunities.

LOL! At this point nothing could happen with Renee and Philip could be outed and sitting in jail and I'd still be thinking, "She still seems like the real threat here."

[SusanSunflower]

yes, there was an almost L&O meets The Wire dynamic in the first years where "The Jennings" became the underdog home-team with the massive wolf of the FBI lurking in the shadows... would the Jennings be discovered by accident or by cunning policework (despite the FBI being no more shining-knight-like than the Baltimore PD) ... all relegated to a barely simmering back burner (is the pilot light still on?)  in favor of Paige and the almighty second gen story (which doesn't look to me to have ended up being dramatically worthy given the inconsistencies and lack of fiery even heroic qualities of Paige Jennings (see many of the drug dealers and gang bangers of the Wire whose backstories were compelling (see also Breaking Bad, even for those who found Walter White or Tony Soprano despicable.)  

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

yes, there was an almost L&O meets The Wire dynamic in the first years where "The Jennings" became the underdog home-team with the massive wolf of the FBI lurking in the shadows... would the Jennings be discovered by accident or by cunning policework (despite the FBI being no more shining-knight-like than the Baltimore PD) ... all relegated to a barely simmering back burner (is the pilot light still on?)  in favor of Paige and the almighty second gen story (which doesn't look to me to have ended up being dramatically worthy given the inconsistencies and lack of fiery even heroic qualities of Paige Jennings (see many of the drug dealers and gang bangers of the Wire whose backstories were compelling (see also Breaking Bad, even for those who found Walter White or Tony Soprano despicable.)  

Yeah, on one hand I totally understand their choice to not rely on Stan almost catching them too much because that would have made him seem dumber...but if it were me I think I would have wanted to still build up a relationship with Philip that was leading towards the emotional reaction from Stan I wanted. Having Stan have that whole arc with Henry seems to mostly have just given more fodder for theories about where to stick Henry when the show's over which undercuts the drama of the reveal for both characters.

It is also very strange to have that whole 2nd gen program introduced the way it was and then drop it. They could have had Paige find out solely because Elizabeth wanted it and because Paige ultimately whined her way into it (which is what ultimately pulled the trigger) and gotten to the same place without all of us having to wonder why the KGB seemed to forget about something that used to be considered their most precious commodity. Especially when Henry so clearly had stuff that made him more attractive. It's like they just admitted that they were only interested in Elizabeth and Paige and didn't want the parents to tell Henry and therefore so was the KGB.

So even Henry being friends with Stan was more just there as a way to do something with Henry with the only real payoff maybe being Henry finally after 6 years mentioning something that makes Stan suspicious because it's the end of the show.

[SusanSunflower]

more ambivalence and anxiety from Paige and more anxiety about Paige from Elizabeth and Phillip could have made a Paige-centric story arc compelling.   Elizabeth seems to have decided very quickly that blabbing to the Tims (which nearly cost the Tims their lives) was a one-off ... or alternatively that Paige needed to be chaperoned 24/7 to avoid a repetition... Paige could have been given an eating disorder or panic attacks (at the sight of Stan) ... my point -- is that Stan did not need to be sacrificed to avoid turning "The Americans" into "The Fugitive" with Stan playing Yosemite Sam being foiled weekly by Bugs Bunny (not that the TV show "The Fugnitive" didn't last 4 seasons 

 

Quote

wiki: The Fugitive was nominated for five Emmy Awards and won the Emmy for Outstanding Dramatic Series in 1966.[2] In 2002, it was ranked No. 36 on TV Guide's 50 Greatest TV Shows of All Time. 

Worth noting that aside from law enforcement, Richard Kimble (David Jansen, brooding existential character) also had the "one-armed man" trailing him trying to get him returned to prison and the case finally closed.  The Americans had Claudia as a third-party threat until she inexplicably (and to me suspiciously) became granny.

Certainly we might have seen much more of how William's story impacted the FBI and the utter ongoing mystery of the wheat related (research facility) murder  (even if the investigation dead-ended as I'm certain many investigations do ... until something triggers a reopening) 

Edited May 8, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Ellaria]

On 5/8/2018 at 2:34 PM, sistermagpie said:

Having Stan have that whole arc with Henry seems to mostly have just given more fodder for theories about where to stick Henry when the show's over which undercuts the drama of the reveal for both characters...

...So even Henry being friends with Stan was more just there as a way to do something with Henry with the only real payoff maybe being Henry finally after 6 years mentioning something that makes Stan suspicious because it's the end of the show.

Bingo! Henry discusses parenting with Stan and a light bulb goes off. 

And, after tonight’s episode with Henry comfortably “at home” in Stan’s house, I’m in agreement that he will land there when the show reaches its sad conclusion.

[Umbelina]

Right now Stan's probably remembering all the other times Henry and Paige covered for their parents being away, and that weekend they were supposed to go to Disneyworld or whatever it was as well.  Henry's mentioned things before, but they just didn't ring Stan's bells.

He's had more distance from Philip since he fell for Renee too, which can give a better perspective.

They have Philip's fingerprint from Clark's apartment too, and now, photos to show living witnesses, instead of just sketches, so if Stan can get him to drink a beer at his place?  He'll know Philip was the guy that married Martha, bugged the FBI office, killed his partner.

How long until Stan remembers he told Philip about Gaad's travel plans?

Sigh, I did want Kimmie to tell her dad about the strange warning, but I guess having the CIA earn the bust would be pretty pathetic for the FBI.

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

And, after tonight’s episode with Henry comfortably “at home” in Stan’s house, I’m in agreement that he will land there when the show reaches its sad conclusion.

Of course Henry seems more at home there when Renee isn't there.

Still, I hope it's also important that Henry said there was no reason for him to come home at all and the thing about being there for your family. Because I think the idea of Henry landing with Stan is like Philip landing with Martha. It sounds neat but it actually comes with a ton of baggage that ought to ruin the whole thing. Particularly if Stan, ya know, winds up killing Philip.

[Folk]

Henry is going to kill Stan or lead to his death. Henry knows...........

[Umbelina]

I still keep thinking that Philip might take a bullet or knife protecting Stan.  In the end, though Philip betrayed him on several levels?  The friendship was at least partly true.

[sistermagpie]

29 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I still keep thinking that Philip might take a bullet or knife protecting Stan.  In the end, though Philip betrayed him on several levels?  The friendship was at least partly true.

The Philip Jennings part of this guy has been a good friend to Stan. Stan owes him a hell of a lot more than Philip owes him. He helped him with his marriage, got his son back into his life for a while, forgave him for accusing him of sleeping with his wife, kept his house open to him for dinner etc. Stan pretty much relied on this guy until he got with Renee and probably would never have gotten remarried without him.

Now, when he sees him suffering (which he always missed in the past) he's going to arrest him rather than help him. Not that I'd expect him to do otherwise, of course, but he still owes a lot to him. 

One of the reasons I hate the ending of Stan "adopting" Henry or whatever is it seems like an attempt to make a happy ending out of a situation that should be shit all around. As if it's a good, comforting thing that Henry gets a new dad in the FBI agent who must have emotions he can't even describe about the kid's father, and Stan gets to have the son of the guy who betrayed him so take that (or alternately, Stan gets to "keep" part of his friend by taking care of his son). 

It's so neat--as neat as the plans to just have Philip get back with Martha in Russia--that it seems completely fake to me.

[hellmouse]

I keep thinking about Stan's hunch. It's kind of funny to imagine Stan telling Aderholt he thinks that Philip & Elizabeth are illegals. Aderholt actually fought with Elizabeth! Since then, he's sat across from her at dinner more than once. He's never suspected her once. Philip comes across as kind of milque-toast, not a physical threat at all. I could see Aderholt laughing at Stan's suspicions. Does he really think that Philip and Elizabeth Jennings are chopping people up in garages and outwitting the FBI on more than one occasion? 

 We've seen that Aderholt is a smart agent, so he probably wouldn't dismiss it out of hand, but Stan is going to need more than just a feeling about his neighbors' strange hours to convince him that they are illegals. So I can see Stan pursuing this on his own for a little while. Maybe he finds more ambiguous leads that neither confirm nor deny his suspicions, leading him to take riskier actions. 

Also, didn't Nina tell him that the illegals he shot at in Season 1 were gone - "she died, he was ex-filtrated"?  Was there ever anything that would have dispelled that belief? Is he going to want to examine Elizabeth's stomach to see if she has a scar from a bullet wound? 

I don't know if this is the right thread to put these thoughts  in, so please tell me and I will move it if it belongs elsewhere!