Regina, the Evil Queen: The Only Happy Ending Will Be Hers

[stealinghome]

I never found "The Stable Boy" effective in convincing me that Regina wanted Cora's love.

I just think, even if up until 'Stable Boy' Regina wanted Cora's love, there should have been absolutely no way she would EVER ally with Cora after Cora killed Daniel. Absolutely none. It's just such a disservice to Regina's love for Daniel (and by extension the entire basis of the show).

 

(Of course, I say that, but this is the same show that has Snow still loving Regina...obviously their barometer is just f'ed up.)

Edited September 13, 2014 by stealinghome

[Serena]

The Miller's Daughter made it really clear. Check out that episode. The ending shows what Regina wanted from Cora.

Because the Miller's Daughter is a retcon of the previous episode, the Stable Boy. If Regina had her original, canon, "I want to get away from her" attitude to Cora, they couldn't have used Snow oh-so-evil deed of stopping a mass murder to drum up sypathy for Woegina.

[FavFable]

Because the Miller's Daughter is a retcon of the previous episode, the Stable Boy. If Regina had her original, canon, "I want to get away from her" attitude to Cora, they couldn't have used Snow oh-so-evil deed of stopping a mass murder to drum up sypathy for Woegina.

 

How everyone interprets the episode is subjective. Canon for that episode is clear.

Edited September 13, 2014 by FavFable

[Serena]

How everyone interprets the episode is subjective. Cannon for that episode is clear.

Nobody is arguing the canon of the actual episode. But, it still makes a mess of Regina's previous characterization. Among other things, she spent 30 years going after an innocent child, but is buddy-buddy with Daniel's actual murderer? It makes it seem like "OMG you killed my love" was just an excuse (since it didn't seem to bother her that Cora actually did kill him) and she went after Snow just because she needed a convenient outlet for her crazy-pants. That's a medical term!

[Mari]

It makes it seem like "OMG you killed my love" was just an excuse (since it didn't seem to bother her that Cora actually did kill him) and she went after Snow just because she needed a convenient outlet for her crazy-pants. That's a medical term!

Well, Cora was abusive and manipulative, and victims of that often have very conflicted feelings about their parents.  I can buy that in a moment of emotional desperation, Regina was reaching towards her mother, hoping that this time would be one of Cora's good days.

 

In some ways, Regina going after Snow makes sense.  Snow's mother loved her. Regina's mother?  Nope.   Snow's father loved her enough to protect her and build his world around her.  Regina's father?  Well, he cared about her, but not enough to have his father the king figure out a way to stop his wife from abusing their child.  Both had the life they intended to have taken away (Regina running away with Daniel, Regina usurping Snow's kingdom and driving Snow into hiding) and only one of them managed to make new friends, and find some happiness anyway.  Both were given the choice of using dark magic to help them be happy, and Snow managed to resist;  Regina didn't.  Snow was willing to risk to be with her True Love.  Regina was not willing to risk to be with her soul mate.

 

They kept having similar things thrown at them, and Regina kept making the wrong choice.  Regina must've hated Snow;  Snow kept making Regina face her own failure, like a twisty-fun house mirror that always one-ups her.  Since Regina is a narcissistic sociopath, she would never be able to stand that.

 

Adding in Snow being a relatively safe target?  A lot of times, kids will lash out at their moms because the unconditional love most moms have means Mom'll still love them.  Snow's like that.  Regina could lash out and lash out at Snow, and not fear retribution, not only because Snow was far less powerful magically, with fewer allies, but because when it comes right down to it, Snow loves Regina and will forgive her.

 

(But you're right.  She's also totally crazy pants.  And it does definitely add ammunition to the possibility that Regina didn't love Daniel;  she loved the idea of getting away from her mother.)

Edited September 13, 2014 by Mari

[FavFable]

Nobody is arguing the canon of the actual episode. But, it still makes a mess of Regina's previous characterization. Among other things, she spent 30 years going after an innocent child, but is buddy-buddy with Daniel's actual murderer? It makes it seem like "OMG you killed my love" was just an excuse (since it didn't seem to bother her that Cora actually did kill him) and she went after Snow just because she needed a convenient outlet for her crazy-pants. That's a medical term!

It doesn't make sense to you. Others see those episodes different. The post you originally responded to was pointing out that Regina wanted Cora's love and acceptance, as The Miller's Wife makes clear.

[stealinghome]

It doesn't make sense to you. Others see those episodes different. The post you originally responded to was pointing out that Regina wanted Cora's love and acceptance, as The Miller's Wife makes clear.

Okay, but we're talking about 'The Stable Boy.' So can you be more specific? Where in the episode 'The Stable Boy' do you see Regina desperately wanting Cora's love and approval? (As opposed to wanting Cora not to be a jerk--because I certainly agree there was a lot of that in that episode!)

Edited September 13, 2014 by stealinghome

[KingOfHearts]

I'd say there were plenty of reasons (not legitimate ones!) that Regina hated Snow that had little to do with the Stable Boy. For one, the kingdom adored her more, even when she was accused of treachery. Regina could not understand why Snow was loved more. Then too, Leopold showed much more attention and care for her than Regina. I'd say most of the anger was jealousy. The Stable Boy was just how Regina labeled it - it was her excuse.

Snow has also been a source of conviction for Regina, as well.

[FavFable]

Couldn't disagree more. Snows decision to tell Cora directly led to Daniel's death. It wasn't a 'label' it was what happened.  I don't believe Regina was jealous of Snow at all. I think she resented her, but I don't think Snow had anything Regina wanted.

[Camera One]

The only way I can try to fanwank it away is that Regina blocked out the memory of Cora ripping Daniel's heart out because it was too traumatic.  But really, I don't see how Regina could stand to look Cora in the face after the murder.  It's like she completely blocked out that Cora did the murdering.  Anyway, back to the fanwank... to avoid thinking about the moment of the murder, she focused her entire hatred on Snow.  This could have faded away in time if Regina had never seen Snow again.  But the hatred was just exacerbated by having to live with Snow and to be around her 24/7.   Snow was the symbol of the new life Cora (yes, again, she is the real person who deserved blame. oh silly me, am I being too harsh on Cora?  Since her motives were just "complicated").  And having to spend so much time with Snow and the constant reminder of Daniel's death slowly drove Regina crazy.  And of course, because Snow was SUCH a brat.   

Edited September 13, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

I don't believe Regina was jealous of Snow at all. I think she resented her, but I don't think Snow had anything Regina wanted.

Other than the love of the people ('The Evil Queen,' 'Snow Drifts' and 'There's No Place Like Home') or Leopold's attention (at least in Regina's perception--'Quite a Common Fairy' and 'Fruit of the Poisonous Tree') or a happy ending ('The Thing You Love Most'/the whole reason for the curse)? Regina flat-out says several times over the course of the series that Snow has something she (Regina) wants. Several somethings, in fact.

 

Now, why Regina is jealous of Snow, along with hating her, is an interesting question, and imo it ties back to the fact that Regina is her own biggest problem. It seems like on some level, hating Snow wasn't enough for Regina, so she also had to develop an additional victimization complex which basically made her think "Snow has something I deserve and if she was wasn't around I would get what I deserve" to explain her (Regina's) general unhappiness with life. So it's not just that she hated Snow, it's that Snow was actively taking something away from Regina that rightfully should be Regina's. Only Regina doesn't really understand that life doesn't work like that; things like love and affection and happiness aren't dollar bills--you can't just pass them from person to person. Rumpel spelled it out for her in 'The Evil Queen'--"People like Snow because she doesn't murder entire villages and you do!"--but Regina still refused to/couldn't get it. Which ties into her being dissatisfied with the curse...because until she confronts the fact that her biggest problem is herself, she's not ever going to truly be happy.

Edited September 13, 2014 by stealinghome

[Dani-Ellie]

Snows decision to tell Cora directly led to Daniel's death.

 

That's true, however Cora is the one who actually killed Daniel, not Snow. If Cora hadn't been, well, Cora, Snow's telling of that secret could have ended much differently, and I'm sorry, but that's on Cora. The question at the heart of this is why Regina spent so much time and energy hating Snow and swearing vengeance on her when Cora was the one who actually took Daniel from her.

 

I'll agree that the relationship between Cora and Regina is complicated because Cora is her mother. At the same time, though, there's been no recognition on Regina's part that Snow was just as much a victim of Cora's machinations as Regina was herself. She knows that Cora set up the rescue that brought Regina into Snow's and Leopold's lives (she knew that in "The Stable Boy" even if Cora refused to acknowledge it), she knows that Cora killed Eva so that the king would be a widower, and she knows that her mother is a master manipulator and so it shouldn't be hard to see how it was possible (and, frankly, so very easy) to play a recently motherless preteen girl like a fiddle. Hell, Regina herself is physically, what, thirty-something (and chronologically sixty-something!) and she still got taken in by Cora in 2B.

 

Regina never told Wee Snow that Cora was dangerous and not to be trusted. She never impressed upon her why she shouldn't tell the secret. What resulted is a small child who was dragged into very adult business and who was in the middle of a she said/she said situation. (I also don't believe for one second that Cora didn't know about Daniel, even if only in a vague sense, but that's headcanon based on the scene where Cora plays Wee Snow like a fiddle ... I think she knew something was up and just used Snow to get the wheres and whens.) When Cora played it as all, "Oh, I don't know why she's pulling away from me," there was no reason for (and I can't repeat this enough, here) a small child to think, "Well, gee, maybe if she knew how Regina feels, it could be better for both of them."

 

And yet Regina hates and rages at Snow for telling Cora where she and Daniel would be but not the person who actually took Daniel's heart out of his chest and crushed it into dust in front of her. So I'll also agree that there's something else there, some reason why all of that rage and hatred and anger shifted to this one little girl who was not trying to be malicious and was actually trying to reconnect a family and make Regina happy.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Mari]

And yet Regina hates and rages at Snow for telling Cora where she and Daniel would be but not the person who actually took Daniel's heart out of his chest and crushed it into dust in front of her. So I'll also agree that there's something else there, some reason why all of that rage and hatred and anger shifted to this one little girl who was not trying to be malicious and was actually trying to reconnect a family and make Regina happy.

I think there might an argument to be made that Regina's hate built, and was not actually about Daniel, really, because I'm not sure that Regina truly loved him.  I think he was a nice fantasy that was all about escaping Cora.

 

Regina was able to get some sort of revenge on Cora before Regina went full-blown animal crackers.  She pushed her through the mirror to Wonderland.  Regina was able to at least imagine that Cora was tormented in Wonderland, and was able to imagine that Cora got what Regina thought she deserved.

 

Then Regina spent the next how many years watching Snow, and watching Snow find happiness no matter what Regina did--and the parallels between their stories consistently made Regina lesser. Regina could throw at Snow thing after thing, and Snow still managed to find happiness and people to love her.

 

Regina's own parents didn't really love her, and person after person loves Snow.  Are there reasons people don't love Regina?  Absolutely.  Completely valid ones.  She's a violent, narcissistic sociopath.  Not loving her is sane.  But Regina doesn't see her own faults--ever, really (narcissistic)--and all she sees is Snow, who is the only person who is left for Regina to blame for no one loving her.  Even when she does the big, giant, curse Snow is happier than (or at least comparably happy) Regina. 

 

Regina hated Snow for so long, and for so many things, that I don't think she connects that little girl with Snow any more.  And even if she did--who cares?  To Regina, no one's feelings but hers matter.  She was in pain, and she was never able to make Snow feel a comparable amount of pain.  It doesn't occur to Regina that she did, actually, make Snow feel that pain because Snow manages to find other things to be at least a little happy about, and unlike Regina isn't the type of person to inflict pain on other people to temper her own. 

 

Then Cora shows up, and Regina finds out Cora doesn't have her heart, and all of a sudden Regina has a valid excuse for why Cora's never loved her.  I think that at that point "Cora" and "Mother" separated for her.  "Cora" was the person who'd abused and manipulated Regina, while "mother" was the person Regina imagined Cora would be with her heart.  (Was she right?  No.  Regina comes by her behavior disorders quite naturally, and it is a (fictional) argument for genetic personality theory.)

[kili]

It doesn't occur to Regina that she did, actually, make Snow feel that pain because Snow manages to find other things to be at least a little happy about, and unlike Regina isn't the type of person to inflict pain on other people to temper her own.

 

We see this again when Henry gives his heart to Pan. Emma, Neal and Regina are in pain at the loss of their son, but Regina dismisses their pain because only her pain matters. 

 

Regina: Don't tell me what's enough. My son is dying!

Emma: Our son. So, yes, I know how you feel.

Regina: You have no idea what I feel. You have your parents. You have this— (Gestures at Neal) —person; a pirate who pines for you. You have everything and yet you claim to know what I feel? (Voice breaking) All I have is Henry and I'm not about to lose him because he is everything.

 

Emma and Neal are distraught because their son is dying. Regina only sees Henry's death through the lens of what it means to her - she is losing the only person who loves her. It's about her not Henry. Therefore, if others have somebody to love them, they have all they need. A pirate you barely just met and who seems to be one-sidedly pining for you is  a replacement for losing a child you love.

 

And her attitude towards Neal is even worse. Neal just gets relegated to being "this person" - and he's the one who just lost a son and his one remaining parent. Regina has no parents who love her, but that's because she killed the one that did. She has nobody to pine after her because she ran away from her soul mate. She has no "this person" because she screwed over all her friends including turning one into a dragon and imprisoning her below a library.

 

And we are supposed to feel sorrier for Regina in this scene than we do for Emma and Neal. Regina certainly feels that way.

 

Other people find happiness despite all the crap that rains down on them. Regina feels crap is raining down on her because other people are able to find happiness.

[KingOfHearts]

I'm pretty sure the "Henry dying" scene was more of Regina just being defensive because she was in such an emotional panic. That's how she's always treated every dire situation. Why I say this is because I believe she genuinely cares about Henry. Wording is important yes, but I'm also measuring it by her other reactions to Henry in the past.

All that said, I totally agree she was being selfish.

Edited September 13, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I also don't believe for one second that Cora didn't know about Daniel, even if only in a vague sense, but that's headcanon based on the scene where Cora plays Wee Snow like a fiddle ... I think she knew something was up and just used Snow to get the wheres and whens.

That's not a huge leap when you consider that when Regina later tried to escape on her own, Cora knew exactly what she was up to and headed her off.

 

My personal headcanon is that Cora knew all along but was setting up Snow to be a focus of Regina's hatred. After all, she started out trying to bring down Snow before Regina was even in the mix when she killed Eva and tried to get Snow to use the candle. Snow was the reason for Leopold to marry Regina, but she'd soon become a roadblock to Regina having real power and to Regina's children taking the throne, so Snow would have to be done away with eventually. That would require Regina having a reason to have a grudge against Snow. The way Cora was talking to Snow in that scene made it sound like Cora knew everything and was asking just the right questions and saying just the right things to get Snow to tell her what she wanted to hear. It was like an attorney in a courtroom questioning her own client -- she already knows the whole story but just has to ask the right questions for the client to give the right testimony in court.

[Camera One]

That's not a huge leap when you consider that when Regina later tried to escape on her own, Cora knew exactly what she was up to and headed her off.

 

Also, in hindsight, now that we know all what magical powers Cora would have had, and in general, the capabilities of magic, there is no way Cora did not know about Daniel.  

 

 

 

I think there might an argument to be made that Regina's hate built, and was not actually about Daniel, really, because I'm not sure that Regina truly loved him.  I think he was a nice fantasy that was all about escaping Cora.

 

Everything we saw pointed to the fact that Regina loved Daniel.  Maybe not as deep a love (which is subjective anyhow) since it might have been Regina's first love, but I can't dismiss it as not-love, even if Daniel was just a symbol of escape from Cora.  At the very least, Daniel was a dear friend, and seeing a dear friend murdered in cold blood could logically generate hateful feelings.  

 

In general, I do not fault the writers for the motivation behind Regina's illogical hatred of Snow White (since the writers needed to have Regina take revenge on her and this was a reasonably smart way to have Snow being somewhat to blame but unwittingly).  My problem is mainly with the unconvincing Regina's supposed love for Cora and complete avoidance of blame on Cora even after knowing Cora's machination with the murder of Eva and the staging of the horse incident (even "Bleeding Hearts" had the writers blatantly avoiding Regina saying Cora was to blame, even as Regina called Snow a murderer multiple times).  

 

That episode demonstrated and cemented that the writers were shifting Regina's mantra from Snow killed Daniel to Snow killed Cora, which was the main purpose of that plot point in Season 2, to renew the feud and to give Regina something solid to blame Snow for.  It had little to nothing to do with wanting to give Snow a proper storyline with the dark spot in her heart (which was not mentioned once in S3 and was pretty much an afterthought even after "The Miller's Daughter").  There have probably been more scenes where Regina blamed Snow for killing Cora than scenes where Snow's family and friends told her it was the right thing to do.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Camera One

[FavFable]

Rocky, what episode made you see Regina as something more than the 'Evil Queen'?

[KingOfHearts]

There was discussion a while back of comparing Frollo from Hunchback of Notre Dame and Regina. Here's all the similarities I discovered:

 

* Both were authority figures who abused their power.

* Both locked up someone to suit their own interests. (Quasimodo, Graham)

* Both torched villages in search of someone.

* Both attempted to burn a girl at the stake.

* Both misdirected their anger to another person to keep their self-righteousness. (Esmerelda, Snow)

* Both animated characters die by falling. (The Evil Queen falls off a cliff in the movie.)
* Both were sadists who enjoyed watching pain inflicted on others.

* Both tortured or killed accomplices who failed them.

* Both were extremely lustful over a "good" character. (Esmerelda, Graham)

* Both had a right-hand man to do their dirty work for them who turned on them. (Phoebus, Graham)

* Both attempted to kill a baby. (Quasimodo, Emma)

 

Time to ship them, no?

Edited September 15, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Regina also has similarities to Shan Yu, the Hun leader in "Mulan", though not as many as Frollo.

 

* Both murder villages

* Both are backed by muscle (Regina had the Black Knights, Shan Yu had his henchmen)

* Both kill henchmen for kicks

 

And finally, they both smile like this:

http://www.movievillains.com/images/shanyu.jpg

[KingOfHearts]

 

And finally, they both smile like this

 

You mean like this?

 

http://imgur.com/V3E9Jf4

Edited September 15, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rockybeach]

Rocky, what episode made you see Regina as something more than the 'Evil Queen'?

The easy answer is Stable Boy. It was important to see what changed in her life. SB showed that Regina wasn't 'Born Evil'. Obviously it also showed that Regina's anger at Snow was more than vanity. It was life changing.  I think SB give a glimpse of what Regina could have become, even after dealing with an obviously violent and cruel mother. What episode changed your view?

[FavFable]

I think the one that started to change my opinion about her was 'We are Both'. When she apologized to Henry. I thought it was progress that she could see that her behavior was wrong and that she couldn't force Henry to care about her. Curious. What did you think of 'The Doctor'?

[KingOfHearts]

 

I think there might an argument to be made that Regina's hate built, and was not actually about Daniel, really, because I'm not sure that Regina truly loved him.  I think he was a nice fantasy that was all about escaping Cora.

I tend to agree with this. Teenaged Regina came across as very naive to me. Like many teenagers, she wanted to escape her overbearing parent. (In this case, abusive.) Daniel was a person she could be herself around, and she treasured that. I'd say she loved him at the time, but it was a romantic love - definitely not on the same level as Snowing. We weren't shown very much of their relationship, so it's difficult to gauge how true it was.

 

In the future, when Regina is still obsessed over him, I think it's just her dwelling on the past.  Like I've said before it's her big excuse for hating Snow, but it's also her remembrance of when she had hope in life. She has a delusion in her mind that her happy ending can only be gained by a True Love like Daniel, so she blocks off all other entrances. It wasn't Daniel himself that profoundly affected Regina, but rather the life she could have had with him.

 

Regina had her clear escape goal on high priority - Operation CORA.

Edited September 16, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

I tend to agree with this. Teenaged Regina came across as very naive to me. Like many teenagers, she wanted to escape her overbearing parent. (In this case, abusive.) Daniel was a person she could be herself around, and she treasured that. I'd say she loved him at the time, but it was a romantic love - definitely not on the same level as Snowing. We weren't shown very much of their relationship, so it's difficult to gauge how true it was.

 

In the future, when Regina is still obsessed over him, I think it's just her dwelling on the past.  Like I've said before it's her big excuse for hating Snow, but it's also her remembrance of when she had hope in life. She has a delusion in her mind that her happy ending can only be gained by a True Love like Daniel, so she blocks off all other entrances. It wasn't Daniel himself that profoundly affected Regina, but rather the life she could have had with him.

 

Regina had her clear escape goal on high priority - Operation CORA.

Yes--my original post was not meant to mean I didn't think Regina cared for Daniel at all.  I think she did.  But, love comes many different ways.  I'm not saying it couldn't have grown into a deep, true love--Regina's feelings for Henry apparently did--but it's rare for teenagers to have that deep, true, permanent, self-sacrificing love to begin with.  Yes, some teen couples do grow into a deep, permanent, self-sacrificing love, but it's not the majority.

 

Then, if you take a look at how Regina reacted to adversity after Daniel's death--she was so very self-absorbed, and so very over-reactionary--even if she and Daniel had managed to run away together, I don't think it would have lasted.

 

He was only a groom, who would have left without references.  That means either no future job, or a terrible future job, usually.  She was not trained for any practical job skills, and wouldn't have references, either. 

 

I know it's a fairytale, but add a teenage Regina whose base self is extremely selfish?  You have a relationship that washes away very quickly in the difficult straits of the real world.  If she had been able to quietly live with Daniel at some country estate, it might've worked out, but if they were running away, that wouldn't have happened.

 

I think she was obsessed with Daniel not because he was her True Love, but because he was a symbol for what she wanted her life to be, and Regina's not particularly self-aware.   (Kind of like she's not particularly resilient.)  I don't think it would occur to her to do the personal inventory necessary to find different types of happiness, and she's not emotionally mature at all, so she got stuck and fixated on that one thing (represented in Daniel).

[Rockybeach]

I think the one that started to change my opinion about her was 'We are Both'. When she apologized to Henry. I thought it was progress that she could see that her behavior was wrong and that she couldn't force Henry to care about her. Curious. What did you think of 'The Doctor'?

The Doctor was a frustrating episode to watch because it had so much potential for Regina to change. If Jefferson or Whale had been honest in their claims to help her. If they had actually revived Daniel, there is no way the Evil Queen would have ever existed. Regina would have left with Daniel.

[Dani-Ellie]

I don't know if I buy that. Even if they had resurrected Daniel back then, it still would have been with another person's heart, so Zombie!Daniel would have still resulted. Her dream would have been shattered anyway, and with her already on the cusp, I can still see her flipping over into full Evil Queen when she realizes she can't get her Daniel back.

[FavFable]

The Doctor was a frustrating episode to watch because it had so much potential for Regina to change. If Jefferson or Whale had been honest in their claims to help her. If they had actually revived Daniel, there is no way the Evil Queen would have ever existed. Regina would have left with Daniel.

I noticed the difference in how Rumple had to work to corrupt and manipulate Regina over the course of years, (as the Doctor showed us), while Zelena was ready and willing to cast his curse. I wonder how different Regina's life would have been if she hadn't been required to be Rumple's tool of destruction.

[KingOfHearts]

 

The Doctor was a frustrating episode to watch because it had so much potential for Regina to change.

I think all of Cora-onward in S2 had potential for Regina to change. They were really baiting it in The Evil Queen when she had that intimate conversation with Snow about changing... then they threw in the village slaughtering. It was frustrating to me because it showed how easily Regina could have changed her path - all it could have taken was one conversation! 

 

The failsafe plot made Regina look idiotic. It threw all her redemption in 2A completely under the bus, then made her look even dumber for believing Henry would play along with it.

[Rockybeach]

 

I wonder how different Regina's life would have been if she hadn't been required to be Rumple's tool of destruction.

I don't think Regina would have necessarily been happier, because so much of her happiness was tied to her love of Daniel, but without the manipulations she would have been less vengeful. I am interested to see how Regina handles Zelena's death when the season 4 starts. Regina will probably be the only one that knows Rumple is responsible. The Charming's aren't too bright and Belle will cover for Rumple if she knows.

[FavFable]

 

The failsafe plot made Regina look idiotic. It threw all her redemption in 2A completely under the bus, then made her look even dumber for believing Henry would play along with it.

I agree with you about this. It was ridiculous to think Henry would accept Regina wiping out his family. I really found season 2 to be the worst of the 3 because the writing was so inconsistent.

[merrick715]

I think the most idiotic thing Regina does in season two was tell Henry her plans of killing every other person he loves so in her words you'll finally be mine again. How does she not know that her son would never want that? Not just because he loves those other people, but because he thinks killing people is wrong. Also, her wiping his memory in response to his objection was one of the single grossest  things she does to him, and also on the show. This is the boy she proclaims is the sun, moon and stars to her, and yet her response is to take away his memory and freewill so she can do as she pleases. I'm sure Cora was applauding from beyond the grave with that move, wondering why she herself didn't think of just making Regina forget Daniel. I really would have been ok with her True Love's Kiss with Henry if the side effect was of him getting all of his memories back, including the ones she stole from him.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I think the most idiotic thing Regina does in season two was tell Henry her plans of killing every other person he loves so in her words you'll finally be mine again.

 

She also tried to get Cora's spell or whatever that would make Henry think he loves her. Old habits do die hard, but Regina had absolutely no guilt about it. I wish she would feel conviction instead of others feeling it for her. I wish they would let Regina redeem herself instead of having everyone else "redeem" her by calling her a hero and blah blah blah. Some of her writing is just totally devoid of logic or basic human behavior. It makes her look like an idiot is what it does, and I know it's not just her because other characters suffer the same way.

Edited September 18, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FavFable]

She also tried to get Cora's spell or whatever that would make Henry think he loves her. Old habits do die hard, but Regina had absolutely no guilt about it. I wish she would feel conviction instead of others feeling it for her. I wish they would let Regina redeem herself instead of having everyone else "redeem" her by calling her a hero and blah blah blah. Some of her writing is just totally devoid of logic or basic human behavior. It makes her look like an idiot is what it does, and I know it's not just her because other characters suffer the same way.

Who called her a 'hero'?

 

I love Regina's redemption arc. Unlike the other villains Hook and Rumple, they have actually taken the time to show her character development. She wasn't good one day and evil the next. It was process over 40 episodes. I think they have done a great job with her development.

[Camera One]

Who called her a 'hero'?

 

Henry did. 

 

"Once upon a time, you were a villain, mom.  But you've changed. You're a hero now. And defeating bad guys is what heroes do." ("Kansas")

Edited September 18, 2014 by Camera One

[FavFable]

Henry did. 

 

"Once upon a time, you were a villain, mom.  But you've changed. You're a hero now. And defeating bad guys is what heroes do." ("Kansas")

So he called her a hero for defending him and the Charmings. Ok. Thanks.

[KingOfHearts]

 

So he called her a hero for defending him and the Charmings. Ok. Thanks.

 

He called her a hero before she defended the Charmings. I don't know what Henry was referring to if he was going by some heroic act she had accomplished beforehand.

[Mari]

She wasn't good one day and evil the next. It was process over 40 episodes. I think they have done a great job with her development.

Except, yes, she kind of was.  They did that a couple of times in season 2.

 

Her character development was better, in season 3, but I can't say she stood out as a particular hero.  There wasn't much she did in season 3 that wasn't in her own self-interest, ultimately;  even going after Baby Nealflake was in her best interest:  Zelena's plan was to get rid of Regina, and she needed the baby to do it.

 

In my opinion, they didn't so much develop her character, as have a rotating box of Reginas that they examined and then pulled out the one that best suited the plot.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Mari

[KingOfHearts]

 

In my opinion, they didn't so much develop her character, as have a rotating box of Reginas that they examined and then pulled out the one that best suited the plot.

 

3B was a great opportunity to sincerely push Regina's redemption arc. She had a love interest, multiple intimate conversations with Snow, a heroic battle against evil (excuse me, wicked), time with Henry, and a Missing Year full of opportunities for dealing with her past. Even with all that, she still didn't get the self-awareness of her actions. She still hasn't apologized to Snow, and she still hasn't taken responsibility for own past sins. The planets were all aligned for her to finally take the step of putting others before herself, and the writers still avoided it like the plague. They'll give her light magic and True Love, but they still refuse to change what's in her heart. As a Regina fan, I find that frustrating to no end.

Edited September 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

She still hasn't apologized to Snow, and she still hasn't taken responsibility for own past sins. The planets were all aligned for her to finally take the step of putting others before herself, and the writers still avoided it like the plague.

 

Exactly.  I still don't get why the writers (in this case Jane Espenson and Daniel T. Thomsen) actually went out of their way in their dialogue of "Bleeding Through" to avoid having Regina say "I'm sorry" to Snow for trying to kill her multiple times, or for killing her father.  I'm sorry, but "So I admit that it's complicated" just doesn't cut it.  Are they saving this for another season?  Or are we just never going to get it?  

[stealinghome]

I have, actually, wondered if they're saving a real "I'm sorry" to Snow/Charming/Emma(/Henry), and a real acknowledgment that she's been in the wrong all these years, for the final season. On some level, it makes real sense...

 

...but the problem with that is that you don't then, in the multiple seasons before the last season, get to act as if she's said these things to these people when she hasn't.

Edited September 19, 2014 by stealinghome

[Mari]

Exactly.  I still don't get why the writers (in this case Jane Espenson and Daniel T. Thomsen) actually went out of their way in their dialogue of "Bleeding Through" to avoid having Regina say "I'm sorry" to Snow for trying to kill her multiple times, or for killing her father.  I'm sorry, but "So I admit that it's complicated" just doesn't cut it.  Are they saving this for another season?  Or are we just never going to get it?  

It could be a character thing--placing blame in appropriate places is possibly Regina's worst skill; even more so than being resilient.  So, it is consistent and in character for her to not realize that she, too, did something(s) very wrong.

 

But is it a blind spot for the writers, as well?  Do they not realize that it is rather bizarre and horrible that they have other characters apologizing to the person who persecuted them, while that person almost accepts it?

 

They seem to be jumping her character back and forth on the morality tracks--maybe they're saving it for when the "redemption" sticks?

[Camera One]

...but the problem with that is that you don't then, in the multiple seasons before the last season, get to act as if she's said these things to these people when she hasn't.

 

Especially when Regina can now experience True Love's Kiss and can yield White Magic, without apologizing for what she did to Snow.  I mean, what other milestones are left to reward Regina with after she makes the final apology?  Snow, Charming, Aurora, Eric, Midas, Rapunzel and Cinderella all abdicating their thrones for her, so she can be Supreme Ruler of the Enchanted Forest?  Merlin and Gandalf handing her the Staff of Ultimate White Magic Practitioner?  

Edited September 19, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

But is it a blind spot for the writers, as well?  Do they not realize that it is rather bizarre and horrible that they have other characters apologizing to the person who persecuted them, while that person almost accepts it?

In order: yes, it is a blind spot, and no, they don't realize how much victim-blaming they do.

 

I honestly, truly think Adam and Eddie fully believe that Woegina is The World's Biggest Victim Ever, and that this (plus their general massive permaboner for the character) leads them to see the entire series through her eyes, and therefore not realize how terrible and fucked up of their treatment of the Snow/Regina relationship has been beginning with S2.

[KingOfHearts]

 

It could be a character thing--placing blame in appropriate places is possibly Regina's worst skill; even more so than being resilient.  So, it is consistent and in character for her to not realize that she, too, did something(s) very wrong.

I agree with this, but the show is telling us something different. It's saying Regina is a hero who truly loves. If she was just an ungrateful villain who constantly put the blame on everyone else, it would be fine. The show, however, is telling us she did all this redemption work. It's not Regina's character that doesn't make sense, but the way the writers and other characters view her.

 

Blaming others is definitely in-character, but we're led to believe the opposite.

Edited September 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

I love Regina's redemption arc. Unlike the other villains Hook and Rumple, they have actually taken the time to show her character development. She wasn't good one day and evil the next. It was process over 40 episodes. I think they have done a great job with her development.

Excuse me, but how the heck do you get that they didn't take the time to show Hook and Rumple's character development? Hook especially is MILES ahead of Regina in terms of his redemption arc.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Excuse me, but how the heck do you get that they didn't take the time to show Hook and Rumple's character development? Hook especially is MILES ahead of Regina in terms of his redemption arc.

 

Replying in Villains thread.

[FavFable]

He called her a hero before she defended the Charmings. I don't know what Henry was referring to if he was going by some heroic act she had accomplished beforehand.

Really, I thought she had fought Zelena to prevent her from taking the Charming's baby? He called her a hero before that?

Maybe he just knows. The way he called Emma a "savior" months before she saved anything.

3B was a great opportunity to sincerely push Regina's redemption arc. She had a love interest, multiple intimate conversations with Snow, a heroic battle against evil (excuse me, wicked), time with Henry, and a Missing Year full of opportunities for dealing with her past. Even with all that, she still didn't get the self-awareness of her actions. She still hasn't apologized to Snow, and she still hasn't taken responsibility for own past sins. The planets were all aligned for her to finally take the step of putting others before herself, and the writers still avoided it like the plague. They'll give her light magic and True Love, but they still refuse to change what's in her heart. As a Regina fan, I find that frustrating to no end.

Regina isn't going to apologize to Snow. . The character development and self awareness Regina has shown is in changing her ACTIONS.

Saying your sorry means nothing when you don't change the behavior. We saw that in the finale with Rumple.

Edited September 20, 2014 by FavFable

[Dani-Ellie]

I don't buy the "sorry doesn't matter" argument. I see it a lot, usually as a way to excuse Regina's lack of apology, and I just don't buy it. When I'm hurt, I like to hear an apology as an acknowledgment that someone's actions have affected me in an adverse way and that they understand that. It's an acknowledgment that the methods and actions were wrong. It's an acknowledgment that the person was wrong for behaving the way they did. One of the first things parents teach their children is to apologize when they've done something wrong. In my estimation, sorry matters very much.

 

Regina's apologized to Henry for how she treated him throughout season one, so we know she's capable of it. Not only that but the show has had Snow apologize to Regina a couple of times now but all that Regina's allowed is that "it's complicated." Where's the reciprocation? Where's the "You were wrong, but I was, too?" Because Regina was wrong, and I'd like to her see acknowledge that.

 

Sorry isn't going to make everything better, but the point of a sorry isn't to make things better. It's to provide the foundation for mutual understanding and for healing.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[stealinghome]

Regina isn't going to apologize to Snow. . The character development and self awareness Regina has shown is in changing her ACTIONS.

Saying your sorry means nothing when you don't change the behavior. We saw that in the finale with Rumple.

I agree that saying you're sorry doesn't mean anything if you don't change your behavior. However, that doesn't therefore mean that changing your behavior is sufficient as an apology. An actual, physical apology has to cross your lips for you to be counted as having said you're sorry.

 

Here's a hypothetical: say there's someone I walk past every day on my way to work. Some random Monday, I punch that person in the face as I'm walking--and I continue to punch that person in the face every day for the next two weeks. On the third Monday, I stop. Is stopping really enough to indicate to that person that I actually regret and feel badly for what I did? Or does it just indicate I'm tired of punching that person for whatever reason (maybe I broke my hand, maybe it's no longer fun, maybe the cops have started watching)? Without an apology, we don't know. That person isn't going to know whether I feel sorry unless I own my poor actions and tell them that I feel badly about it and regret it. Hence the need for apologies.

Edited September 20, 2014 by stealinghome