S01.E20: In the Hands of the Prophets

[ShadowDenizen]

Opening up the thread for comments on the finale of DS9: Season 1.

 

Two Words: Vedek Winn.

 

[Meushell]

Aside from being a season finale, it is also a Keiko episode, and I love it. A lot of her seem to written around her.

"We need a school teacher."

"Keiko will do it."

"We need Jake off the station."

"Keiko will have a school trip."

Here though, Keiko feels like she's not just along for the ride. It may be about the school, but now it doesn't feel like her role can be replaced by some other random character.

She took it too far with the "Let's learn about Galileo bit," but otherwise, I agree with her.

Winn really put her and the parents in a tight spot. The parents (and guardians) presumably asked their children what they were learning. They obviously didn't have an issue with Keiko not teaching religion. Then a Vedek comes along and tells them it's wrong.

Keiko defends her school, and it certainly shouldn't be "the majority gets to hear about their religion."

Besides imagine if Quark hired a bunch of new Ferengi employees, all coming with kids in tow?

"Now children, we're going to learn about the Rules of Acquisition."

I'm pretty sure the Bajorans would have issues with that.

In a way, Kira's idea of a separate school isn't a bad one. However, that defeats the purpose of really trying to work and live together. Kids are going to have a harder time learning about each other and their cultures if the schools segregate them.

Bareil amuses me. Basically… "Nice meeting you, but I'm totally going to sit this one out."

"Apparently he was getting murdered." Lol Odo.

I wonder what became of Neela. Was she executed?

[ShadowDenizen]

I love reading your thoughts on episodes, Meushell!

 

 

 

"Now children, we're going to learn about the Rules of Acquisition."  I'm pretty sure the Bajorans would have issues with that.

 

I dunno; learning about important concepts of Alien Cultures (including religion) seems fine by me, as long as they're not presented as empirical truth.  Just becuase you learn about something doesn't mean you're asking people to live by those ideals.  Keiko straddles the line for me in this episode, but if Vedek Winn hadn't been so obstinate as well, they might have come to  better conclusion. 

 

Keiko seemed willing to bend a little, in at least ackwnoledging that the Bajrans view the "Wormhole Aliens" as Prophets.  It was Winn's insistence that the REST OF THE WORLD view them as Prophets that was the real breaking point.

 

But, this did do ALOT to set up the character of Vedek Winn, and she turns out to be one of the most compelling characters in the show for me. IMOP, DS9 is the BEST of the Trek shows for making you empathize and identify with secondary characters without beating you over the head with them. (Garak, Gul Dukat, Vedek Winn, all are awesome, and used perfectly for their roles... Even some of the tertiary characters stick in my mind after all these years, where I'm hard pressed to tell you the names of a handful of Voyager or TNG ones.)

 

Bareil amuses me. Basically… "Nice meeting you, but I'm totally going to sit this one out."

This also sets up the character of Bareil. (He kinda sucks.)

Edited June 20, 2014 by ShadowDenizen

[blueray]

 

"Apparently he was getting murdered."

That seriously is probably my favorite line of the episode. The look everyone gives Odo when he says it is priceless.

Edited June 20, 2014 by blueray

[Meushell]

I dunno; learning about important concepts of Alien Cultures (including religion) seems fine by me, as long as they're not presented as empirical truth. Just becuase you learn about something doesn't mean you're asking people to live by those ideals. Keiko straddles the line for me in this episode, but if Vedek Winn hadn't been so obstinate as well, they might have come to better conclusion.

Keiko seemed willing to bend a little, in at least ackwnoledging that the Bajrans view the "Wormhole Aliens" as Prophets. It was Winn's insistence that the REST OF THE WORLD view them as Prophets that was the real breaking point.

True. I was thinking on the lines of teaching it as if it were fact. Just knowing what others believe isn't a bad idea. :)

[ShadowDenizen]

Gotcha. :) Clearly the intent was to introduce Winn in a way that encapsulates her persona for much of the series, but Keiko was partially at fault, too, I think.
 

Edited June 23, 2014 by ShadowDenizen

[Gilmel]

I thought both Keiko and Winn were problems in the episode. Winn for the obvious reasons, but Keiko seems unable to understand or teach about something without teaching it as fact. And that, I think, makes her a poor teacher in general but especially in a classroom on a Bajoran station (where the Federation was invited to administrate) with a variety of students from disparate cultures. She seems equally inflexible to me; it's just that we're supposed to dislike Winn more, and so the narrative rather sets Keiko up as the good guy. I've never liked that about this episode.

[blueray]

I was able to see both sides throughout the episode. Keiko needed to learn how to teach to people of a different culture and Winn needed to compermise. When Winn loses me is when she orders the woman to distroy the school. What if someone ( a Bajoran child) was hurt. And of course my opinion now is reflecting off of who she becomes throughout the show.

[ShadowDenizen]

Yes, the arc of Winn's (and Dukat's) character are one of the things that I'm most looking forward to hearing poeple talk about during this process.

 

[Meushell]

I was able to see both sides throughout the episode. Keiko needed to learn how to teach to people of a different culture and Winn needed to compermise. When Winn loses me is when she orders the woman to distroy the school. What if someone ( a Bajoran child) was hurt. And of course my opinion now is reflecting off of who she becomes throughout the show.

Despite Neela's willingness to kill, I suspect she made sure no one was inside. She seemed to feel bad about the guy she killed...or at least, it seemed like she was supposed to (with the "Did you know him" talk with O'Brien), but the acting was weak.

Winn, however, probably didn't care do much. Well, she probably told Neela not to kill Keiko in the blast. Otherwise, she's created a martyr. The same really goes for any non-Bajoran children. She might try to twist it into a "the Prophets have punished them," but I don't think that would work. Bajoran children, however, are probably lucky she didn't set the bomb herself.

[Bryce Lynch]

I agree that Keiko was a bit too stubborn and inflexible when Vedek Ratched...I mean Winn, offered the compromise where she would not teach about the wormhole/Celestial Temple. An option for Bajoran parents to opt their kids out of wormhole lessons would have been even better.

I think Winn's fairly reasonable offer is a bit of a plot hole, though. If the whole school controversy was a ruse to lure Bariel to DS9 to assassinate him, why would she make a reasonable offer that Keiko might accept?

I think the assassination plot took away from what started out as an interesting and fairly well balanced look at the issue of religion and other controversial subjects in school.

[iMonrey]

This is the episode I've been waiting for since the series started over again, not that I knew it. This is where the show really excelled, in social commentary and so forth. I did not remember Vedek Winn being quite this villainous - she ordered a hit on a fellow Vedek so she would be elected Kai? Wow. I remembered her as more of an ambiguously gray character. I do remember hating her guts though. Her dripping condescension makes me want to smack her. When she said to Keiko "I feel your anger towards me, and I forgive you," I wanted Keiko to respond with "And I forgive you the insult of assuming I require forgiving."

I'm surprised this was the season finale; no cliff-hanger? The rest of the season finales were known for them. 

[John Potts]

23 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I did not remember Vedek Winn being quite this villainous - she ordered a hit on a fellow Vedek so she would be elected Kai?

Neither did I first time around: TPTB clearly felt that our heroes opponents couldn't be misguided, they had to be actively evil. They could have left it with the Bajorans objecting to Keiko's secularist teachings and had them simply picketing the school. But instead we have to escalate it to bombing the school and Winn plotting to assassinate a fellow Vedek. It's like the Producers felt that the religious fundamentalists wouldn't be portrayed in a bad enough light for simply honestly disagreeing with the "right" scientific line. And even though I'm more inclined to side with Keiko, I did feel she was about as doctrinaire in her beliefs as Winn was (I forget her exact line, but she states something like "what the Bajorans call Prophets we know are actually Wormhole aliens" - perhaps the most diplomatic way of phrasing it, particularly given it's essentially a matter of nomenclature, since Keiko isn't denying the prophets EXIST, just their nature). Still a  decent enough episode, even if it gets a little heavy handed at times.

[readster]

I agree, Winn's problem was I felt that they had this problem putting her in either full on villain mode than misguided religious leader with entitlement. Flash forward to season 3 and the entire situation she caused over farm equipment. That just painted Winn as a moron who had too much power. Like a food manager who was 23 and making $80K and all of a sudden feels they know better than anyone. After that, I had groan every time they used her. The final two seasons, they seemed to finally balanced the character again and her end was fitting in the finale.