The Americans - General Discussion

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

If I watch the extras or deleted scenes again I will try to transcribe it for you.  I THINK they were standing in that big yard, and she was all excited he had been in Moscow for training, and kind of urging or willing him to tell her how wonderful it was there (she's very proud of the USSR.)  He wasn't at all insulting, but tells her a few examples of the racism there including the name calling, and no people of color, and some other discriminations he experienced, but is more resigned than upset about it.  Liz goes on with the "it's a process/we will get better" stuff and is pretty obviously a bit shocked, a bit embarrassed, but that plays mostly on her face, she may have apologized and he brushed it off with something like 'no need, it's the way it is, I appreciated the training' or whatever.

I am really surprised that scene was cut.  As I said, it was the only time Elizabeth didn't automatically dismiss any and all criticism about the glorious USSR.  I thought it was good for her, but maybe that's why the did cut it, mustn't show any hesitation in Liz.

Yeah, interesting that they cut it because I was actually surprised, looking back, that she doesn't ask him anything about Moscow. It's not often she gets to speak to someone from there where she can openly talk to them. Plus they obviously knew this was Elizabeth's issue more than Philip's because of Gregory--and of course also because Philip doesn't have the same kind of expectations that Elizabeth has about the place. I doubt Philip would be at all shocked, whether or not he had any pre-conceived ideas about racism in Moscow.

When I was re-watching I expected the scene and when it didn't happen I thought oh, maybe it's the scene where he talks to Philip, as if Ncgobo, too, instinctively knows that Philip's the person to go to to complain about the USSR, but they didn't talk about it either. 

Without it you wind up with just a scene where Ncgobo is telling her how cool she is and bonding with her over how much they get the struggle--and this is in the same ep where Paige claims that Philip and Elizabeth were Civil Rights activists, which of course they really weren't. We don't know exactly what Elizabeth said to her about it. Elizabeth does, iirc, respond similarly to Pastor Tim's accusation of anti-Semitism, but again that doesn't work the same way because 1) Elizabeth thinks religion really is stupid so wouldn't see any loss in forbidding it 2) Elizabeth doesn't care about Pastor Tim's opinion and is just trying to placate him and 3) Pastor Tim acting like anti-Semitism in Russia is about not liking religion is ridiculously whitewashing it. Elizabeth may not have had any real-life experience with racism growing up but she probably did have it with anti-semitism. 

They must have intentionally wanted to protect Elizabeth from a reality-check there for some reason, though. You don't write something like that as filler and cut it just for time.

[Umbelina]

14 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

They must have intentionally wanted to protect Elizabeth from a reality-check there for some reason, though. You don't write something like that as filler and cut it just for time.

Seriously!

I honestly didn't realize that was an "extra scene" until now.  I'm addicted to extras on DVDs, and really listen and look at all of them.

It seems especially important because Claudia's solution was to send Gregory there, so at that moment, Elizabeth would have finally understood that look Gregory gave her, like "COME ON, get real for a moment Liz."  He knew.  I'm sure Claudia, Gabriel, and even Philip knew, but Elizabeth remained in complete denial about the USSR throughout the series, even when we all know she must has seen all the news footage, etc.

As I said, most played in their body language, I think preceding that was Elizabeth being so proud of the USSR standing up to Apartheid, while the evil USA did not, again, complete denial about motivations.  Ncgombo knew why the USSR was doing it, but he needed them, and that also came across in that scene (to me.)  It felt like more of a "don't kick a gift horse in the mouth, or look at it's teeth too closely" moment.  He was a complete gentlemen, and smarter than Elizabeth by kilometers.

So much came across in that scene to me, again, not so much words, but two fine actors reacting to those words, it almost felt like Elizabeth had to regain her balance after hearing Ncgombo tell her what he faced in Moscow.

I went searching on youtube for that extra, came up empty, but it may be out there somewhere, let me know if you find it, because a transcript won't really do it justice, or explain the impact it had on me as a viewer.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Umbelina
added stuff

[Domestic Assassin]

I hoped to find it on You Tube, but it's not there (although there are a few deleted scenes from other seasons on You Tube). It's a good scene. It's from the Walter Taffet episode and it's their first meeting, in a warehouse. He tells her that he was on his way home to South Africa but Moscow sent him to the US first. He says that Moscow spoiled him with food every day, clean water and a bed and says he's gotten soft, and Elizabeth says she doubts that and that they gave him the best training available, and she's basically beaming with pride. But he says that they made sure he remembered his place, and that on the streets in Moscow they called him Mowgli.  He asks if that surprised her, and when she says yes he says it surprised him too.  When he first got to Moscow they gave him classes every day in Lenin and Marx, but it's no workers paradise, and Elizabeth says it's not perfect, but she looks shaken.  And that's basically the end of the scene.  

Edited October 2, 2020 by Domestic Assassin

[Umbelina]

13 minutes ago, Domestic Assassin said:

I hoped to find it on You Tube, but it's not there (although there are a few deleted scenes from other seasons on You Tube). It's a good scene. It's from the Walter Taffet episode and it's their first meeting, in a warehouse. He tells her that he was on his way home to South Africa but Moscow sent him to the US first. He says that Moscow spoiled him with food every day, clean water and a bed and says he's gotten soft, and Elizabeth says she doubts that and that they gave him the best training available, and she's basically beaming with pride. But he says that they made sure he remembered his place, and that on the streets in Moscow they called him Mowgli.  He asks if that surprised her, and when she says yes he says it surprised him too.  When he first got to Moscow they gave him classes every day in Lenin and Marx, but it's no workers paradise, and Elizabeth says it's not perfect, but she looks shaken.  And that's basically the end of the scene.  

Thanks.  I tried recapping from my memory above, but I know it was more about the impact it had on me than the actual words.

They both killed in that scene.  It was so well done, he was such a great character, but I still cringe from watching it all again because of the tire scene.  Honestly though, he made me believe him in every moment, and that tire scene about the reality of his struggles should not bother me as much as it did. 

Great stuff in that episode from Elizabeth's trainee as well.

I thought it was in the episode Divestment though?  Oh well.  xoxo

Edited October 2, 2020 by Umbelina
added stuff

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

It seems especially important because Claudia's solution was to send Gregory there, so at that moment, Elizabeth would have finally understood that look Gregory gave her, like "COME ON, get real for a moment Liz."  He knew.  I'm sure Claudia, Gabriel, and even Philip knew, but Elizabeth remained in complete denial about the USSR throughout the series, even when we all know she must has seen all the news footage, etc.

 

There's really nothing in the way he says it or his look that points to race more than it points to what the characters actually talk about throughout the episode, which about how Gregory is *American* and has maybe never even been outside its borders. Elizabeth's pause after he asks if she could really see him there could refer to that as much as race. Her answer to him as again about him being American, saying there would be an adjustment period. She doesn't take the moment to remind him that Moscow is so much better than DC because he won't have to deal with racism. 

It's not like say, in Divestment where Walter Taffet's conversation about Adderholt about being "new" plays obviously as a euphemism for black. 

Ultimately the show totally protects Elizabeth's rather flattering view of herself and her country on this issue, even though there's a lot of problematic stuff going on with it. Gregory tells Philip he and Elizabeth got that it wasn't just about race or the war. Iow, he really gave up his fight for racial justice, or decided it wasn't his fight, in favor of Elizabeth's dream of worldwide Communism that was just going to fix everything. When he refuses to go to Moscow there's no dialogue at all about him worrying about racism, no dialogue even with Claudia about it with him or with either Jennings. It's more about him just being American--which in itself is okay if that's what they were focusing on in that season, but down the road we've got Ncgobo and they again decide to avoid the issue, despite it getting even more problematic on the Jennings end with Elizabeth bragging to Paige and Paige getting a little white savior inspiration.

Gregory goes from being a Civil Rights activist to a neighborhood drug dealer at the beck and call of his white suburban girlfriend and her also racist country (whose racism she doesn't see). Then she chooses her white husband over him and after his death uses him to recruit her white daughter who righteously reads books about the Civil Rights movement but ultimately joins the same non-racism-centered struggle, treating her  as "one of them" in ways Gregory can't ever be because of her heritage.  

1 hour ago, Domestic Assassin said:

I hoped to find it on You Tube, but it's not there (although there are a few deleted scenes from other seasons on You Tube). It's a good scene. It's from the Walter Taffet episode and it's their first meeting, in a warehouse. He tells her that he was on his way home to South Africa but Moscow sent him to the US first. He says that Moscow spoiled him with food every day, clean water and a bed and says he's gotten soft, and Elizabeth says she doubts that and that they gave him the best training available, and she's basically beaming with pride. But he says that they made sure he remembered his place, and that on the streets in Moscow they called him Mowgli.  He asks if that surprised her, and when she says yes he says it surprised him too.  When he first got to Moscow they gave him classes every day in Lenin and Marx, but it's no workers paradise, and Elizabeth says it's not perfect, but she looks shaken.  And that's basically the end of the scene.  

That's kind of amazing because there's NOTHING like that ever anywhere in the show. Any other time she hears criticism of the USSR or even an uncomfortable reality it's in a context where she's got defenses ready against it and it doesn't land. Nothing like this kind of thing. They really seemed to decide to never slap her in the face with an awkward moment. It's not even a "Are we the baddies?" moment, it's a "We suck too" moment.

Also kind of funny that Ncgobo talks about being spoiled with food because that's something that Zinaida plays up about the US, as if she knows Americans like to be complimented on all the food. 

Edited October 2, 2020 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

19 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

There's really nothing in the way he says it or his look that points to race more than it points to what the characters actually talk about throughout the episode,

Oh wow, do I disagree with you there!  Oh, and Claudia does bring it up as well, obliquely.  

As a white American he could at least blend in until he learned the language, but his experiences would probably have been worse than Ncombo's just living there, not part of their army against the USA.  (Believe me the USA was obviously on the wrong side of history there, but I don't believe the USSR gave a damn about anything but tweaking our noses and our military.)

I completely read that scene as him knowing he would be just about the only black person in Moscow.  Didn't he suggest Cuba as an alternative?  At least there he would blend in, even if he was living under that system.

[sistermagpie]

20 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Oh wow, do I disagree with you there!  Oh, and Claudia does bring it up as well, obliquely.  

As a white American he could at least blend in until he learned the language, but his experiences would probably have been worse than Ncombo's just living there, not part of their army against the USA.  (Believe me the USA was obviously on the wrong side of history there, but I don't believe the USSR gave a damn about anything but tweaking our noses and our military.)

I completely read that scene as him knowing he would be just about the only black person in Moscow.  Didn't he suggest Cuba as an alternative?  At least there he would blend in, even if he was living under that system.

 

How obliquely? She says Moscow is a frightening prospect for someone who hasn't seen the world and Elizabeth says she thinks he'll like it there. Claudia lays out the deal they'll give him--he'll have money but won't be rich, will lecture but won't have an office, etc. Then she says that it's a hard adjustment but after that he'll be fine.

In his conversation with Claudia Gregory says he "won't take" to Moscow and she says that others have done it and he'll like it eventually.

There's not a single thing being said here that couldn't also be in a scene about Martha or Jared--except Gregory is being spoken about as hero whose "reward" is waiting in Moscow. It's all about him adjusting to Moscow, not the other way around.

The alternative Gregory offers is going to California--specifically Compton. It would have made perfect sense to me if the show had centered Gregory's final choice around this barrier that's been there between him and Elizabeth et al. all along that can no longer be ignored, but the show made it about him being an American who didn't have it in him to start a new life in a very foreign country. Sure as a viewer I think Gregory's specific background and race makes his situation play differently than, say, Martha or Paige. But that's not the conflict in the episode.

[Umbelina]

I'll watch it again.  Gregory would have been even more out of place than Ncgombo, who at least was only going to be there for a short time, and be in training with others, some probably as "strange" to Moscow as he is.  His days would be filled.  Gregory isn't a coward, I seriously doubt that someone that has done all he's done would be scared of travel.  I think SOMEONE mentions Cuba (or I'm crazy) and Claudia says no, it has to be Moscow.  I do remember the Compton comment as well.

Russia itself had some Asian and Natives influence, but not in Moscow.  As for black people at that time?  I tired to get real data, but only came up with a few stories about them.  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/15/black-in-the-ussr-whats-life-like-for-a-russian-of-colour

Most seem to be visitors who left behind "mixed" children who then grew up with their own problems.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I'll watch it again.  Gregory would have been even more out of place than Ncgombo, who at least was only going to be there for a short time, and be in training with others, some probably as "strange" to Moscow as he is.  His days would be filled.  Gregory isn't a coward, I seriously doubt that someone that has done all he's done would be scared of travel.  I think SOMEONE mentions Cuba (or I'm crazy) and Claudia says no, it has to be Moscow.  I do remember the Compton comment as well.

 

Oh, I agree with what his situation would be like compared to Ncgobo's. It's just that nothing in any of the conversations about Gregory have anything in them that applies to Gregory needing to deal with being sentenced to a life surrounded by white people, much less the possibility that they'll be openly racist white people. Moscow is always the only option on Claudia's side--and Gregory seems to know this was the exfiltration plan beforehand, having talked about it with Elizabeth. The only other option brought up is when Gregory asks if he can disappear in Compton, maybe with some plastic surgery, and Claudia says it wouldn't work.

When they talk about him being able to go to Moscow all the conversation is about whether he can make the adjustment or not. Claudia and Elizabeth both say they think he'd like it after he got used to it there. When Elizabeth makes a last ditch effort to sell him on it as a city she says it's cosmopolitan with art and culture and that people will be in awe of him there as a hero of the cause. It's all about him dealing with the change.

It doesn't seem like any of them consider Gregory's refusing to go as a sign of cowardice. It's more like they recognize that some people just aren't made for that--and Gregory says that too. He just knows he doesn't want to do it and never really waivers about it. Philip and Claudia have a quick convo where Philip asks if she thinks he's trying to negotiate for California by holding out and Claudia says she thinks he might be looking for a chance to run from them or maybe he's just fooling himself. But it seems like he just means what he says--he doesn't have the motivation to start a new life in Moscow but is willing to die--and not by Russians there either.

Actually, there is one other possibility brought up which is probably pretty central. Gregory suggests Elizabeth running away with him somewhere, which of course she wouldn't do. Disappearing in LA would be like going back to his "real life," the guy he was before Elizabeth recruited him. Running off with Elizabeth anywhere would let him hold onto a sustaining romantic fantasy.

[Roseanna]

On 10/2/2020 at 3:39 AM, sistermagpie said:

Elizabeth does, iirc, respond similarly to Pastor Tim's accusation of anti-Semitism, but again that doesn't work the same way because 1) Elizabeth thinks religion really is stupid so wouldn't see any loss in forbidding it 2) Elizabeth doesn't care about Pastor Tim's opinion and is just trying to placate him and 3) Pastor Tim acting like anti-Semitism in Russia is about not liking religion is ridiculously whitewashing it. 

In this scene Pastor Tim seems to be rather stupid because many Jews were unreligious and didn't identify themselves as Jews. Because the Jews had been oppressed in Czar's Russia, there were overrepresented among revolutionaries and (like other minority nationalities) first favored in the USSR until Stalin turned the tables, began to suspect minority nationals's loyalty (especially those who had another fatherland beyond the border like Poles, Germans, Finns, Koreans etc) and made the ethnic Russians "first among equals". Stalin planned a purge against Jews (although naming them not Jews but "Cosmopolitans") and there was already "doctor's plot" but then he died. However, the tendency to favor ethnic Russians continued and it was made easy by the Soviet inner passport where the ethnic nationality (Jewish, Estonian, Germans etc), was told. There was f.ex. a quota for Jews in the universities and f.ex. the famous semioticians moved from Leningrad to Tartu in Soviet Estonia.

In the short stories and novels of Ludmila Ulitskaya who favors the  there are rather hilarious stories about Jews converting to Christians and Christians converting to Jews.

In the Soviet Union the Jews weren't specially mentioned as Hitler's offers but the offers were called just "Soviet citizens". Jevgeny Jevtushenko's poem Babi Yar was an exception. 

[Roseanna]

On 10/2/2020 at 9:29 AM, Umbelina said:

Russia itself had some Asian and Natives influence, but not in Moscow.  

It depends how one defends those terms. Russia has always been a multinational, multilinguistic and multireligious country. Ivan IV (the Terrible) became the first Czar after conquering Tatar khanates Kazan and Astrakhan (their local aristocrats converted to Christianity). Many people who now regard themselves as Russians had ancestors who spoke some language relative to Finnish and Estonian and kept long their ancient religion. 

[Roseanna]

I have always thought that murders are totally unnecessary in The Americans. Now I am certain of it, after reading a novel by Tua Harno, Kylmän sodan tytär (The daughter of the cold war) where the psychological tensions (inside the protagonists and between him and other people) are quite enough. 

The protagonist is a CIA agent who comes to Finland in the 70ies under the false identity, with orders to marry a Finnish girl who has been chosen to help him get to know suitable Finns. He has been given a little company that sells computer technology to Finns who sell them to the Soviets and his job is to make sure that technology doesn't contain anything dangerous. Therefore he is also given an order to seduce the wife of a top boss in a Finnish technology company. When the company's unstable GEO has praised to the Soviets that the company is just creating a new technology that the Soviets experts realize it could be used in war, the situation comes dangerous. Finally the protagonists is forced to flee and leave his family behind and they never meet until his daughter becomes to investigate why there is nothing about his father in the Finnish documents, not even the marriage of her parents. 

That is why the protagonist's second wife describe him (she was an American and worked in the CIA):

Quote

 

It happens there for people like E that when they direct all their attention to other people, they lose themselves. They know how to list the childhood traumas of their targets, but they plunge their own memories into darkness. They don’t want to tell any real things about themselves to anyone, even their loved ones, because the reserve that is something real and personal to them is dwindling all the time and they are trying to hold on to even some corner of the soul line.

It doesn’t work by silencing, as memories are hacked unused if not shared.

They become design waxes without their own preferences because they are never asked, and what begins as an adaptability of character develops into a lack of personality and ultimately leads to a lack of conscience. Their only compass is the tasks given, and they perform them, for there is no individual within them who would refuse. 

 

Because P&E had each other, they avoided this danger.

[sistermagpie]

On 10/3/2020 at 2:59 AM, Roseanna said:

In this scene Pastor Tim seems to be rather stupid because many Jews were unreligious and didn't identify themselves as Jews. Because the Jews had been oppressed in Czar's Russia, there were overrepresented among revolutionaries and (like other minority nationalities) first favored in the USSR until Stalin turned the tables, began to suspect minority nationals's loyalty (especially those who had another fatherland beyond the border like Poles, Germans, Finns, Koreans etc) and made the ethnic Russians "first among equals". Stalin planned a purge against Jews (although naming them not Jews but "Cosmopolitans") and there was already "doctor's plot" but then he died. However, the tendency to favor ethnic Russians continued and it was made easy by the Soviet inner passport where the ethnic nationality (Jewish, Estonian, Germans etc), was told. There was f.ex. a quota for Jews in the universities and f.ex. the famous semioticians moved from Leningrad to Tartu in Soviet Estonia.

Yes, I thought it was a particularly silly line on his part because it's not like Tim, as an American, would himself associates ant-Semitism with religion primarily. I haven't watched the scene in a while, but I wonder if it makes him seem like he's trying to co-opt the situation for himself by suggesting that he's on the same level of victimization there as a Christian.

 

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I have always thought that murders are totally unnecessary in The Americans. Now I am certain of it, after reading a novel by Tua Harno, Kylmän sodan tytär (The daughter of the cold war) where the psychological tensions (inside the protagonists and between him and other people) are quite enough. 

The protagonist is a CIA agent who comes to Finland in the 70ies under the false identity, with orders to marry a Finnish girl who has been chosen to help him get to know suitable Finns. He has been given a little company that sells computer technology to Finns who sell them to the Soviets and his job is to make sure that technology doesn't contain anything dangerous. Therefore he is also given an order to seduce the wife of a top boss in a Finnish technology company. When the company's unstable GEO has praised to the Soviets that the company is just creating a new technology that the Soviets experts realize it could be used in war, the situation comes dangerous. Finally the protagonists is forced to flee and leave his family behind and they never meet until his daughter becomes to investigate why there is nothing about his father in the Finnish documents, not even the marriage of her parents. 

That is why the protagonist's second wife describe him (she was an American and worked in the CIA):

Because P&E had each other, they avoided this danger.

Wow, what a great description of them on some level--the avoid that, as you say, but you still see them doing that in some ways. The show knew what it was doing by suggesting that the two of them turning to each other for real was a game-changer in their work.

[Umbelina]

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https://www.cbsnews.com/video/the-fbi-declassified-the-spies-next-door/

Edited October 15, 2020 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

Just watched Do Mail Robots Dream of Electric Sheep? This was one of my least favorite eps first run and I still am annoyed at Elizabeth wandering into a one-act play halfway into the episode, but I noticed some more interesting things in context. So…

STAN and OLEG

These two pull off a scheme to test Zinaida. Oleg is hilarious with his slicked-back KGB hair, and I love how he slightly smiles when he asks Stan how his head is after Oleg smacked it. I sometimes forget how much experience Stan has lying to the FBI.

I was trying to figure out why what Stan’s doing here seems worse than Oleg to me since it’s not like Oleg would be in any less trouble if he got caught. I think it’s because at least Oleg, if they’re right, is just blowing an operation. Stan’s assigned to protect this woman and he’s using that to give the KGB and opening to her! Even if he does have good instincts about Zinaida, it’s not like he’s doing this because he’s worried about the US.

PAIGE

Paige only appears briefly, reading the Bible at home and babysitting while her parents bug the mail robot. It’s another one of those scenes that could have been used to show Henry looking to Paige as a parent or the two of them being super close as many seem to want, but instead shows exactly where they’re really headed. Paige corrects like a parent and Henry ignores her, the end.

Going back to that parenting question of molding kids vs. supporting them, if/when Paige has her own kids her parenting style will probably copy Elizabeth’s example. Elizabeth and Henry are explicitly estranged in S6, but he and Paige don’t even exchange any dialogue that I remember. Paige suddenly focuses on him when it looks like she’ll never see him again, but then, so does Elizabeth.

HANS

Hans gets fired and reinstates himself by murdering Todd. Again, everything with Todd seems there to lay foundation for Paige’s arc, with similar but not identical situations. Todd saw Hans while they were both working, so the threat is more direct. But the sailor getting a picture ID is still not something Elizabeth would just let go as she pretends to do for Paige.

When Elizabeth lies to Paige and kills the guy herself, she could be thinking of what happens here with Hans—she wouldn’t want to fire Paige and have her try to right things herself like Hans did, much less send her to get the ID back herself. But if Elizabeth is trying to prevent Paige from acting like Hans, that’s just another level of denial because there’s no way Paige would have considered killing the guy to get her ID back—if she would even consider murder at all. Elizabeth’s filtering of reality comes in in this ep too, so it seems relevant.

MARTHA

At the time this first aired, audience convo seemed mostly about what Martha was really doing or thinking, but knowing now that she’s doing just what she seems to be, I notice more how she’s not just passively accepting the situation. In her scene with Clark she’s proactively trying to take control and reassert their former dynamic where Martha was the bolder of the two, in her mind.

It made me think about how when the audience sees Clark, we see Philip. But Martha sees Clark as a whole person she thinks she can interpret. For instance, when she gets the call from the foster agency and says they’ve changed their mind, AW’s performance, to me, implies that Martha thinks she’s correcting *Clark* about how realistic it is to think about children, even if only to make her happy. She even playfully asks him if he knows how to stir when handing him a spoon for the sauce—she’s seeing Clark as having stumbled his way into trouble but now she’s here for him.

I had always remembered Clark’s “Who’s Gene?” incorrectly—I thought he was showing his “true self” in directly asking for info. But in reality, he sighs, depressed by what Martha is doing. Gene is Martha’s plan, but she probably doesn’t understand he could die for it (as Paige, too, will imagine a more PG-version of the job).

PHILIP

This is the ep where Gabriel and Philip have their tense Scrabble game. Two revelations here. The first: Philip says when he met Elizabeth it was like a bolt of lightning, something he’s never experienced before or since. At the time I thought Philip was being dumb in handing Gabriel that to use against him, but watching it now I figure it’s really not new info. Gabriel knows he loves Elizabeth and I guess what Philip is pushing back against is Gabriel maybe trying to insinuate that their bond is not romantic, only something that’s come through the work of marriage, as Zhukov once predicted to Elizabeth? So, Philip is saying his feelings are independent of the work. Likewise, he rejects Gabriel’s attempt to tell him Elizabeth “chose” him.

Having just suckered Martha with his own love story, Philip never does go back to trusting Gabriel. It’s nice how here he shows how clearly he sees Elizabeth’s flaw when it comes to manipulation from the Centre. It’s another long game he plays and wins.

That story is in retrospect about Elizabeth’s first potential husband is true, I think, since Gabriel later tells Claudia he’s never lied to them before. It could mean anything and it’s nice that it adds a little mystery to Elizabeth in the one area (Philip) where she’s always had a little mystery. I totally do have a headcanon about Elizabeth’s choice of Philip and rejection of the first guy.

Also, when Philip says he trusted Gabriel because he was supposed to protect him it echoes his accusations about how he was supposed to be able to trust Elizabeth in “Trust Me.” In both cases he’s not just feeling personally betrayed, but seeing that the KGB lied when they presented Elizabeth and Gabriel as confidantes, because they were both always intended to be loyal to the Centre first. The one person he never does accuse of betraying him in a situation like that is Paige after she blabs to Pastor Tim. He seems to express sadness about it to Kimmy later, but it’s not the same.

Also, I note that when Elizabeth tells Philip that Betty’s husband was in WWII, he immediately understands how that changes things—unlike Paige, who Elizabeth wants to believe understands in GPW. I remember at the time somebody somewhere feeling that Philip let Elizabeth down in this ep by not encouraging her to spare Betty, and I thought that implied that it was Philip’s job to be Elizabeth’s personal mercy card, when I believe the point here is the opposite.

 

ELIZABETH

So obviously, Elizabeth is really central to this ep. It’s her in the one-act play with a character so on the nose she might as well have been a figment of Elizabeth’s imagination. I never dislike Elizabeth as much as I do when she’s taking advantage of the fact that this woman is going to die to talk about her own poor mother who worked so hard. (Btw, is it odd that the show seems to imply that Elizabeth’s mother moonlighted as a housecleaner to make ends meet for her and her daughter? It seems like it’s trying to make her into a single mother in a capitalist society who has to work two jobs because being a secretary in the 1950s can’t support them.) I just find Betty silly; even her final death looks like a cartoon, physically realistic as it might be. Also, it’s still totally ridiculous how Elizabeth walks in there for little reason the one single time she and Philip go on a job with no disguise at all, not even a hair-covering.

Betty continues to pleasantly chat with Elizabeth even after her forced suicide has started, eventually veering into a bit of a soap opera about how she got married twice (which maybe maps onto the Jennings’ separation?) and her husband married some other woman who was maybe literally her best friend? It seems like that’s there again for Elizabeth, because this ep really starts to lean in on her insecurity about Martha.

First Philip announces while fiddling with his (Jennings) wedding ring that Martha has seen through him, but he’s still going back to her because he trusts her. Then he seems angry at the Centre potentially putting her in more danger. When Elizabeth tells him his feelings for Martha are “natural” he sarcastically thanks her for her permission. Philip’s never been comfortable talking about Martha, just as Gil would never talk about his conveniently dead wife, Helen, with Betty. Elizabeth just can’t understand Philip’s behavior as anything else than him loving this woman, just as she potentially sees Betty’s marriage story as her own. In S6 Elizabeth keeps trying to see herself reflected in Paige instead of Paige herself. Betty even takes a brief detour into trippy-ness to ask if Gil “sent” Elizabeth to take her and ask if he’s with Helen before returning to reality. She just hits all the bases with Elizabeth—so much so I wonder if Helen’s “accident” wasn’t a set up by Betty!

Oh, and btw I doubt it’s a coincidence that Elizabeth plays this scene with Betty while wearing what is basically her wedding dress—the dark designer jeans and reddish leather jacket she wore in the pilot when she and Philip have sex and then later when they got married.

Here’s the interesting thing I saw this time, though. First time through, I remember that @pinkribbons was very annoyed that Betty is 80-year-old Lois Smith when in 1983 she would more likely be in her 60s. She thought the creators were being sloppy, associating WWII with being old. But it’s not like the show doesn’t have WWII-vet Claudia the right age, and Elizabeth’s mother, and then Gabriel associated with the Purges instead.

What I realize now, though, is that Elizabeth is subtly associated with old couples. In S1 when she and Philip were watching the scientist and his wife, she reacted to how they still held hands. It meant something to her it didn’t to Philip. In S6 when they return from the Harvest op they’re dressed as an older couple, which at the time seemed like a vision of the retired couple they’d never be. Philip occasionally dresses like an old man on his own—to visit Gene’s grave and to run from the US—but Elizabeth really isn’t ever an old person alone that I remember. It’s while dressed as half of an old couple that Elizabeth does her “breakthrough” (in her opinion) drawing. It’s the plane window, but it’s actually old Philip sitting at the window.

Then there’s Betty—and Betty is old. Everything about her presentation suggests that her life is in the past. She’s got a couple of pictures in color in her office, but they’re out of focus. The pictures we see are in b&w, even a weird infant photo of her now-grown son. Her husband’s dead, and she talks about his sister in the past tense too, as if she’s also dead. She’s looking forward to death at every turn, even saying she wouldn’t want a new heart (would anyone even do a transplant on someone her age?). Coming into the office at night seems to be like lying down in a grave and hoping Gil will come and get her.

I think this pattern for Elizabeth—to which I would also add the artist, Erika, in S6 since she, too, is dying—is meant to fit with smoking/Gregory. Smoking is something both Elizabeth and Gregory do, and which he encourages, as they bonded over sacrificing themselves for the cause rather than living. When Elizabeth chooses Philip, she chooses life, so wants to quit. In S6 she’s moving towards death, literally wearing a suicide pill, cut off from Philip and smoking like a chimney.

So, I think it’s fitting that Elizabeth’s secret romantic dream is growing old with the man she loves, like Betty pretty much did, with him waiting for her on the other side, even if she was more swept up in a more passionate, burn bright/die young idea when she was younger.

Elizabeth seems pretty confident in her righteousness when Betty asks why she’s being murdered, and her last words don’t seem to affect Elizabeth in terms of making her question her cause, but rather make her fear that as an evil person (i.e., a person who must make the brutal choices) she will lose her Gil.

[christie]

I'm currently binging this and am about halfway through season four. Poor Martha; all she wanted was a nice man to love her and she ended up being used by him. Alison Wright's performance was heartbreaking. I have questions though:

1. How did the FBI find Clark's house? I don't think Martha had the address written down somewhere and I don't think they followed her to it so how would the FBI know where it was?

2. Why didn't the FBI find Martha and Clark's wedding picture? We'd seen it so many times on display and we saw her hide it in the drawer when Stan came over so why wasn't it found? (Obviously the writers don't want Stan to find out yet that his neighbour is a KGB agent but it just felt sloppy).

I think that we're in 1983 now and one thing that keeps going through my brain is with all those sexual partners that they have aren't they afraid of AIDS? I remember the AIDS hysteria of the early eighties vividly and yet there's no reference to it.

[Domestic Assassin]

1 hour ago, christie said:

I'm currently binging this and am about halfway through season four. Poor Martha; all she wanted was a nice man to love her and she ended up being used by him. Alison Wright's performance was heartbreaking. I have questions though:

1. How did the FBI find Clark's house? I don't think Martha had the address written down somewhere and I don't think they followed her to it so how would the FBI know where it was?

2. Why didn't the FBI find Martha and Clark's wedding picture? We'd seen it so many times on display and we saw her hide it in the drawer when Stan came over so why wasn't it found? (Obviously the writers don't want Stan to find out yet that his neighbour is a KGB agent but it just felt sloppy).

I think that we're in 1983 now and one thing that keeps going through my brain is with all those sexual partners that they have aren't they afraid of AIDS? I remember the AIDS hysteria of the early eighties vividly and yet there's no reference to it.

In the Clark's Place episode, Aderholt followed Martha to Clark's apartment building. Hans called "Clark" to warn him, and we see him grab the wedding picture and the answering machine tape on his way out the door. There is a shot of Clark walking behind Aderholt's car as he's sneaking away. Presumably, that was the only unexpected place for Martha to have gone when Aderholt was following her, so they knew to check it out. How they knew which specific apartment I don't know, but it's easy enough to imagine they gave Martha's description to the landlord or asked about tenants that didn't seem to live there full time.

I remember wondering if they were going to touch on AIDS, but the hysteria didn't really hit until the mid-80's after Rock Hudson's diagnosis. I remember in The Big Chill (which came out in 1983, the year this episode is set in) a character joking about knowing how her husband would never cheat because of fear of herpes. AIDS just wasn't as much in the consciousness until later in the decade.

ETA: I just remembered the wedding photo in Martha's apartment, which I assume is the one you meant. I don't know where that one went.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Domestic Assassin

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, christie said:

I'm currently binging this and am about halfway through season four. Poor Martha; all she wanted was a nice man to love her and she ended up being used by him. Alison Wright's performance was heartbreaking. I have questions though:

1. How did the FBI find Clark's house? I don't think Martha had the address written down somewhere and I don't think they followed her to it so how would the FBI know where it was?

2. Why didn't the FBI find Martha and Clark's wedding picture? We'd seen it so many times on display and we saw her hide it in the drawer when Stan came over so why wasn't it found? (Obviously the writers don't want Stan to find out yet that his neighbour is a KGB agent but it just felt sloppy).

I think that we're in 1983 now and one thing that keeps going through my brain is with all those sexual partners that they have aren't they afraid of AIDS? I remember the AIDS hysteria of the early eighties vividly and yet there's no reference to it.

I was living in San Francisco, so I was well aware of AIDs back then, but the rest of the country, not so much.  Even those that were aware thought of it as a "gay disease."  As @Domestic Assassin says below, Herpes was the biggest worry back then.  I would think they would be afraid of that, since no real treatment existed then, and it's a life long issue and so easily transmitted.  

I so agree with you, Martha was a great character, and so well acted!  She's one of the main reasons this show was so good.

1 hour ago, Domestic Assassin said:

In the Clark's Place episode, Aderholt followed Martha to Clark's apartment building. Hans called "Clark" to warn him, and we see him grab the wedding picture and the answering machine tape on his way out the door. There is a shot of Clark walking behind Aderholt's car as he's sneaking away. Presumably, that was the only unexpected place for Martha to have gone when Aderholt was following her, so they knew to check it out. How they knew which specific apartment I don't know, but it's easy enough to imagine they gave Martha's description to the landlord or asked about tenants that didn't seem to live there full time.

I remember wondering if they were going to touch on AIDS, but the hysteria didn't really hit until the mid-80's after Rock Hudson's diagnosis. I remember in The Big Chill (which came out in 1983, the year this episode is set in) a character joking about knowing how her husband would never cheat because of fear of herpes. AIDS just wasn't as much in the consciousness until later in the decade.

ETA: I just remembered the wedding photo in Martha's apartment, which I assume is the one you meant. I don't know where that one went.

I THINK, but can't be sure, that Clark got rid of that photo as soon as he found out Stan dropped by for tea?  Or one of the other clues that Martha was being checked out was discovered?  

@sistermagpie???  

 

[Domestic Assassin]

18 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I THINK, but can't be sure, that Clark got rid of that photo as soon as he found out Stan dropped by for tea?  Or one of the other clues that Martha was being checked out was discovered?  

 

In the season 4 premiere after "Clark" told Martha about killing Gene, Clark goes to get Martha a glass of water and looks over at the picture on the shelves next to the kitchen area. This was after Stan's visit, so we at least know it wasn't taken after that incident. I thought one of them might have taken the picture to Clark's apartment, but the one at Clark's is in a different frame.  When Martha is leaving her apartment for the last time ever, it doesn't look like the the picture is in it's usual place on those shelves, but it's at a distance so I can't be positive.  It does seem like it was addressed at some point, but I can't think of when. 

Edited October 23, 2020 by Domestic Assassin

[christie]

Thank you everyone for answering my questions. I had forgotten that Aderholt had followed Martha to Clark's place. 

I definitely knew about AIDS before Rock Hudson's death though I think in '83 it might still have been considered a"gay disease" - dates are not my strongpoint.

[Umbelina]

26 minutes ago, christie said:

Thank you everyone for answering my questions. I had forgotten that Aderholt had followed Martha to Clark's place. 

I definitely knew about AIDS before Rock Hudson's death though I think in '83 it might still have been considered a"gay disease" - dates are not my strongpoint.

I think it became more widely known, but not understood, when Elizabeth Taylor spoke in 1985.  https://www.amfar.org/about-amfar/trustee-biographies/dame-elizabeth-taylor/

Edited October 23, 2020 by Umbelina

[Domestic Assassin]

It wasn't that people hadn't heard of AIDS before Rock Hudson, but (sadly) it wasn't taken as seriously as it should have been by people outside the hardest hit populations.

Thinking more about it, I'm going to assume that Philip took the picture with him the last time he was at Martha's place (in the season 4 premiere), we just never saw him leave. It was only a few days after Stan's visit IIRC, and he did tell Martha they couldn't meet at her place anymore and they'd have to meet at his place. But, this is an excellent reason for me to rewatch season 4 this weekend., to see if it really was addressed at some point. I don't think they'd make such a point of showing Philip looking at it in the season premiere if they weren't going to address it.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Domestic Assassin

[sistermagpie]

6 hours ago, Domestic Assassin said:

It wasn't that people hadn't heard of AIDS before Rock Hudson, but (sadly) it wasn't taken as seriously as it should have been by people outside the hardest hit populations.

Thinking more about it, I'm going to assume that Philip took the picture with him the last time he was at Martha's place (in the season 4 premiere), we just never saw him leave. It was only a few days after Stan's visit IIRC, and he did tell Martha they couldn't meet at her place anymore and they'd have to meet at his place. But, this is an excellent reason for me to rewatch season 4 this weekend., to see if it really was addressed at some point. I don't think they'd make such a point of showing Philip looking at it in the season premiere if they weren't going to address it.

That's what I was assuming reading the thread. I haven't gotten to season 4 yet (just started Stingers!). I think showing Philip looking at the picture is meant to tell us that he's going to get rid of it, that he's mentally figuring out all the things to take/check for and since we see him later grab the one at Clark's Place (in Clark's Place?) we can assume he did it. Either he took it himself or he had somebody take it while she wasn't there. It's clearly not there when Stan searches the place--and her wedding ring is probably at Clark's already too by then. Martha hid it in a drawer when Stan came over the first time, so she probably would be fine with getting rid of it.

 

10 hours ago, christie said:

I think that we're in 1983 now and one thing that keeps going through my brain is with all those sexual partners that they have aren't they afraid of AIDS? I remember the AIDS hysteria of the early eighties vividly and yet there's no reference to it.

I thought this was really surprising too that there's nothing about it. In fact, I always thought it was a tiny bit anachronistic when Martha asked Clark if he had a condom back in S1 by asking if "he had protection"--I know birth control was called protection already, but that way of asking if someone had a condom seems very much from a time when AIDS had become part of everyone's world. 

The fact that we see Clark, at least, using a condom might suggest that the two of them were more careful about using them even before AIDS? And I guess one could think they would be sleeping with people who were less likely to have been exposed a lot of the time...but it still really does seem rather glaring to me. There was even a point in the show (no spoilers about the actual show here) where there were theories about Elizabeth allegedly having it. At times Elizabeth really does seem exceptionally at risk, which puts Philip at risk as well--and we know he's trained to sleep with men as well, adding even more risk. I don't have a problem with it not being a storyline, but it's surprising that they never discuss it, since they are apparently presented as very believable examples of sex workers. Assuming you're not with "the kind of person" who would be infected no doubt got a lot of people infected.

[christie]

Exactly @sistermagpie I don't mind that there's no storyline about AIDS, it just seems really odd that they haven't mentioned it.

I'll have to rewatch the first episode of season four to see about Philip and the picture.

[Umbelina]

6 hours ago, christie said:

Exactly @sistermagpie I don't mind that there's no storyline about AIDS, it just seems really odd that they haven't mentioned it.

I'll have to rewatch the first episode of season four to see about Philip and the picture.

Yeah, or at least Herpes, because that was a huge deal, until AIDS became more well known and replaced it.

@sistermagpie I thought Martha was talking about condoms as birth control, apparently that was what they used.  Although, how he could possibly keep one on, or just keep changing them is beyond me, with all of the positions Martha wanted to try.  😉

Edited October 24, 2020 by Umbelina

[BW Manilowe]

16 hours ago, christie said:

Exactly @sistermagpie I don't mind that there's no storyline about AIDS, it just seems really odd that they haven't mentioned it.

I'll have to rewatch the first episode of season four to see about Philip and the picture.

Regarding the bolded, I know it’s an entirely different thing than AIDS, but the show also skipped another entirely big deal it could’ve, & maybe should’ve, covered—or at least mentioned in some way: the Russians shooting down, in 1983, of Korean Air Lines flight 007, from New York to Seoul with a stop, at least for refueling, in Anchorage, whose passengers included nationals of various countries, including the US & South Korea—including a conservative Georgia Congressman—over/near Sakhalin Island (their territory) in 1983, killing all aboard. That was a pretty major deal between the Reagan Administration & the Soviet government for quite awhile. I remember reading they weren’t gonna mention it, & I understood why, but it was another pretty big thing they maybe shouldn’t have skipped mentioning.

Edited October 24, 2020 by BW Manilowe
To add a year. And to fix a punctuation error.

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Yeah, or at least Herpes, because that was a huge deal, until AIDS became more well known and replaced it.

@sistermagpie I thought Martha was talking about condoms as birth control, apparently that was what they used.  Although, how he could possibly keep one on, or just keep changing them is beyond me, with all of the positions Martha wanted to try.  😉

In the scene I'm thinking of it was the first time they had sex. I can't remember what episode specifically, but she asks him, I think, if he has protection and he says he didn't bring anything because he didn't want to presume etc. She rolls over and gets one out of a drawer that was left behind by her ex (presumably Amador). 

I did definitely assume she was asking him about birth control rather than STDs, but that's what sounded weird to me. Like I know that birth control itself would already be sometimes referred to as "protection" but it seemed wrong for someone in 1981 to ask someone if they had a condom or any other form of birth control by asking "do you have protection?" Like the few movies I could think of where that came up the person didn't use that phrase to ask about birth control, but after some point in the AIDS crisis it became the standard way to say it. Iirc, in the Austin Powers movie there's even a joke about it where somebody says she hopes he used or had protection and he nods and points to his gun.

What I remember about the logistics of the scene now, I remember, is that Clark/Philip seemed like a magician at getting the thing on. That guy is practiced - I don't even think he took off his underwear!

[sistermagpie]

Just watched Stingers, after which nothing will be the same! On first watch it was hard to focus on anything but the Big Reveal, but there is a lot happening. The ep has a weird feel to it, maybe because P&E are the ones being plotted against and blindsided. In fact, there’s a whole theme of regular people acting like spies throughout.

 

OLEG

Turns out Zinaida really is a spy, but Arkady assumes Oleg was a real KGB op run by a right hand that didn’t know what the left was doing. Just realized that lays groundwork for Elizabeth's coup job in S6. It's a big organization. Tatiana seems to give Oleg a little smile as he leaves the office. She likes him. This won’t work out as well as she hopes.

 

PASTOR TIM

The ep starts with Pastor Tim’s visit to Philip, which makes everything feel off kilter from the get-go. He’s the first person in the ep to be spy-like, claiming to be there because he suddenly needs a travel agent for his annual missionary trip. Matthew Rhys, btw, does a great salesman face while listening to Tim—he’s projecting this big look of enthusiasm as Tim talks. It’s just exactly what a travel agent / salesman would do.

Tim clumsily pretends to get this wild idea as he’s talking—why doesn’t Philip bring the whole family to Kenya? Like it’s not completely obvious he was planning to suggest that the whole time. He’s bad at it, but it’s the sort of thing P&E do all the time.

Tim is at his worst in this ep. First, he tries to sell Philip on the idea that a mission trip isn’t that religious. When Philip tries to politely refuse by telling Tim it’s not a good time, Tim says it’s ALWAYS A GOOD TIME for families to get closer. Neatly implying that if Philip doesn’t want to go to Kenya with Pastor Tim this summer, he just doesn’t love his family. What. An. Asshole.

Since Philip refuses to do this the easy way, Tim ominously tells him he needs to start treating Paige like an adult. (In the same office where Elizabeth will later mention Paige’s Legos still are.)

Btw, Tim consistently goes to Philip to talk about business even though Elizabeth also works. He does this from the moment they meet, so it’s not just about him thinking Philip’s the difficult one after his visit in Martial Eagle. I think he really is just traditionally sexist when it comes to gender roles.

Tim then answers Philip’s question of whether he has kids by saying he has “a flock,” which at the time was just proof of him being terrible, but now I think is also setting up Tim being childless as a reason for being as insensitive as he is, as he will change when he’s a father himself.

Elizabeth, btw, totally glares at Philip when he tells the family about this visit, letting him see how much she hates this guy.

 

STAN

Stan takes Zinaida to see Tootsie, where she asks to go to the bathroom during a scene with Bill Murray in it (!!). She doesn’t miss a chance to tell Stan that a man dressing like a woman is yet another amazing thing that would never happen in the USSR! Stan says it wouldn’t happen in the US either (it's a movie, Zinaida, dial it back). Zinaida uses her trip to the bathroom to leave a note under the sink. The theme to The Sting is playing in the bathroom, so we’ve got two movies referenced about cons and false identities.

Stan at last meets with Walter Taffet, who says he’s also gone through a divorce. Stan lies about having had an affair—it’s almost easier to count the times Stan isn’t lying to the FBI at this point. He says his marriage just fell apart, and Taffet says “Like a wormy apple. Trust.” Which is exactly what’s happening in the Jennings house—there’s no one thing that makes Paige suspicious, the apple’s just gotten too wormy.

Stan brings over a pirate video for Henry, clearly looking around, hoping Philip or Elizabeth are there to invite him to dinner. Later we’ll see why he's reluctant to be at home. For some reason he’s had to drag everything he owns into the living room for Sandra to decide what she wants. Philip doesn’t really look that pleased at Stan bringing over games and videos, btw. Stan and Henry really are like two latchkey kids—without Stan becoming irresponsible or anything.

 

HENRY

When Henry opens the door for Stan, not only does he not look through the peephole to see who’s there, he even turns away before the door is open so when Stan says hello, he’s surprised to see him there. Good thing that wasn’t an axe-murderer at the door there, Henry. Or a landshark! I know Henry comes across to many as painfully lonely since he’s alone in the house when Stan drops by, but he ignores Stan half the time he’s standing right there because he’s playing his video game, only paying attention when Stan distracts him with another game. 

Henry is, however, interested in Eddie Murphy—this is the ep when he does his Mr. Robinson impression and it’s fabulous. If we’re counting little hints that Henry’s the more natural spy, impressions would be one, and we also find out he’s collected his porn stash in a secret box he can hide under the floorboards—Paige won’t be stumbling on that again. He shows up at Stan’s house ostensibly to return his video (TRON), but really to ask if they can play Strat-o-matic, which Stan says he used to play with Matthew. And Stan, who found every excuse to stay out of the house when Matthew was there, is now glad to root around in the basement right this second for Henry rather than stare at his junkyard of a living room.

Henry's limited screentime packs in a lot of little details about him. Last week Paige admonished Henry for not following all the directions of an assignment. Here Henry wants to know why Paige's church is building a school in Kenya and Paige...really doesn't know. It's funny how almost every time Paige answers one of Henry's questions, she takes a superior tone, but doesn't actually know the answer. Like just writing that several examples come to mind.

Since parenting is such a big theme on the show, it makes sense that we see kids reaching out to adults rather than focusing on friends their own age, which is who most kids turn to as they get older. Both Jennings kids find an adult who seems to be very different from their parents. But I think it’s significant that where Paige seeks out an outsider who’s an antagonist to her parents, Henry is drawn to his own father’s best friend. That seems to reflect their relationship with the parent they’re most focused on—Paige is mostly in conflict with Elizabeth except for times she’s self-consciously not being in conflict (which usually turn out to be based on lies on Elizabeth’s part). Henry is close to Philip. Being friends with Stan can help him know Philip better where Paige’s turn to Pastor Tim is more about trying to define herself away from Elizabeth’s over-bearing influence.

Just realized it's also interesting that even early on Paige sees herself as outside her parents' close bond while Henry seems to see them as separate entities, with his father being more of a friend.

 

PAIGE

Paige also drops by at the travel agency unannounced. She claims she was “in the city with some friends” and just decided to but…yeah, of course she wasn’t. She gets suspicious after Philip runs out, blaming Barbara for not filing something it’ll take him hours to do himself. (Poor Barb needs to get a bonus for being the office fall guy.) I do think, like I said before, that this would work better if HT had been able to track Paige’s suspicion in her performance because even on re-watch it seems like she only remembers to be suspicious in moments when it’s all she’s doing.

Not sure exactly what Paige was doing by dropping by the office, but Paige probably didn’t either. The scene adds to the “something’s off kilter here” feeling that foreshadows Paige’s ambush later.

The things Paige throws out as possible secrets during that confrontation are not based on logic, but emotion. Her being adopted would not lead to having no other family, and being in witness protection would not lead to her parents being out at night. She’s hitting the right emotional notes with her suggestions, not drawing strictly logical conclusions.

This is why I don’t think it would have worked if, as many suggested at the time, P&E made up a cover story to tell her here. It was either truth or no truth. It’s the same for Stan in S6. He doesn’t start to suspect Philip because he didn’t make up a better excuse for his dark moods or for where Elizabeth was at Thanksgiving. Stan suspected because things just started to feel off. Once he started looking at his friends through that lens, like Paige, it was a lot of things.

What’s Paige thinking when she calls Pastor Tim and doesn’t tell him? On one hand it shows that she can no longer just be open with him. But I think she’s also walking up to the line with him to assure herself that she <i>could</i> tell him.

When her parents get home the show chooses yet another great clip to play in the background. I watched <i>General Hospital</i> religiously at this time so I knew exactly what was going on in the ep Paige was watching, but even w/o that you can hear that Susan is crowing about how she can get her husband, Scotty, thrown in jail and there’s nothing he can do about it—a perfectly threatening description of the position Paige is now in with her parents. Thanks GH!

Of course, Susan is going to be murdered for just this type of vengeful scheming very soon on the show so…lookout, Paige.

Also, it’s a small thing, but I like how despite Paige’s speeches about how black people are treated the only time she ever has anything like an interaction with a black person it’s referring to Gregory as the drug dealer.

 

PHILIP

What’s really cool on this re-watch is seeing that, what P&E happen to be doing in this ep foreshadows the Paige story to come for both of them.

Gabriel tells Philip that Mischa has refused the ticket out of Afghanistan that Elizabeth requested. Does Philip want them to take him out anyway? Philip doesn’t, as I misremembered, simply say no. He has a moment of obvious conflict about it. He knows his son is in danger of being killed, maimed or tortured and he has the power, with a word, to pull him out. But he chooses to respect Mischa’s wishes rather than keep him safe. When Philip does this with Paige in S6 some took it as a sign he just didn’t care about her, but it’s just really central to his views on parenting in general.

In the confrontation with Paige that follows, Philip has a very similar moment of conflict after Paige says they’re going to just “keep lying” to her. We know Philip doesn’t want her to know the truth, for his own sake and for hers, but when it’s Paige herself demanding it he has to respect it. Once he starts talking, the reluctance is clear in his body language. Philip often keeps his eyes down like someone confessing a sin as he answers Paige’s questions. He only gets proactive when he feels he has to, telling her the danger of her telling anyone else. He’s also the one determined to leave her alone when she asks for it. This is the position he’s going to keep with her throughout and ultimately Paige will make the decision she knows he wants for her, but for her own reasons. He’s similarly trustful with Martha.

When Kimmy says Jim/Philip is the only person who cares about her, he says that’s not true, that she’s more “real” than her friends and that’s good. This is another thing Philip does a lot for Paige going forward: just assuring her that she’s deserving of love, that she’s good enough, etc. It might be more useful to encourage Kimmy to think Jim’s the only person who does or could care about her, but Philip doesn’t want to do that to her. It’s probably what Elizabeth would do, and why her sources don’t last as long.

In fact, Jim’s a more consistent and more fatherly figure to Kimmy than either Pastor Tim or Stan are to the Jennings kids, yet nobody ever suggests he’s become her real father instead of Breland.

Philip’s here also beginning his downward spiral into a state like that Elizabeth is in in S6, juggling his concern for Martha, Kimmy and Mischa and staying up all night.

 

ELIZABETH

Elizabeth returns to sex work after not having done it since the first ep of S2. On re-watch I’ve seen how consistently the show hits on how much Elizabeth dislikes this part of her job, especially when she’s not totally in control of it. It’s no coincidence that she returns to it the very night she has to get real with Paige. This is the thing she’s going to lie about most desperately to Paige, and the thing that Paige is going to use as the symbol of all that’s repulsive about her mother.

All the more reason it’s important that Philip isn’t judgmental or threatened by it at all. When he offers to wait for a woman to seduce himself, it’s not played with any disapproval on his part or shame on hers. They both know she doesn’t want to do it, but feels she must.

Btw, hard to imagine this kind of thing working as well with a woman. Not to be totally gender essentialist, but if a woman manager came to a hotel room and the guy started coming on to her like Elizabeth does with Neil, she’d quite possibly be threatened, and suspect the guy of ruining the bed himself.

The other thing we see here is Elizabeth’s self-delusions about Paige. Where Philip sits back in the revelation at the kitchen table, Elizabeth leans forward, reaches out, aggressively tries to move the conversation to the stuff Elizabeth thinks is important—how the US lies about the USSR and she’s a hero. Where Philip simply acknowledges Paige’s feelings, Elizabeth tries to control them and her. She’s probably constantly trying to get back to the script she has in her head for how she wanted this to go. (Note that Philip doesn’t throw it in Elizabeth’s face that she wanted to tell Paige when Elizabeth’s nervous.)

So, it’s not surprising that Elizabeth is the one who responds to Paige’s command for them to “speak Russian.” At the time I remember some didn’t get why Paige would ask that since she wouldn’t recognize Russian anyway, but it’s not about her testing them, it’s about her wanting to see them as the true aliens they are. The fact that it’s just nonsense syllables to her is the point. Elizabeth says what she probably has often wanted to say to Paige, even using a Russian term of endearment. Philip, of course, steps in to translate what Elizabeth said into something familiar and warm.

Misinterpreting Paige’s response to all things Russian (among other things) is really constant for Elizabeth and I don’t think there’s a single time where Paige herself isn’t signaling that. I’m really going to be looking closely at how Paige reacts to tales of the Old Country from now on.

Edited November 18, 2020 by sistermagpie
Formatting

[Roseanna]

On 11/17/2020 at 7:33 AM, sistermagpie said:

Gabriel tells Philip that Mischa has refused the ticket out of Afghanistan that Elizabeth requested. Does Philip want them to take him out anyway? Philip doesn’t, as I misremembered, simply say no. He has a moment of obvious conflict about it. He knows his son is in danger of being killed, maimed or tortured and he has the power, with a word, to pull him out. But he chooses to respect Mischa’s wishes rather than keep him safe. When Philip does this with Paige in S6 some took it as a sign he just didn’t care about her, but it’s just really central to his views on parenting in general.

Philip was lucky. Wouldn't he have felt guilty if Mischa would have been killed or wounded?

Compare with these RL happenings: a boy of 16 got from his mom a leave to volunteer to the Winter War, but later he blamed her for it (it would indeed been horrible in the other circumstances but at the time the fate of the whole people was at stake). Similarly a young girl insisted that her parents gave her a leave to become a Lotta (the Finnish Womens' volunteer organisation helping the army) but later she accused that her parents didn't care that she "wasted years" (so did everybody else).  

So young people blame parents if they don't give a leave, but when they become older, they blame that parents gave a leave. 

[Roseanna]

Continueing: Didn't Mischa get difficulties (was he even in the mental hospital?) because he criticized the Afghanistan war? Why was he willing to stay there? The obvious reason was: because he didn't want to let down his comrades. Generally the most important motivation of the soldiers is solidarity towards their primary group.

BTV, Philip seems not have given any thoughts to the extreme bullying in the Soviet army.

 

 

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Philip was lucky. Wouldn't he have felt guilty if Mischa would have been killed or wounded?

Compare with these RL happenings: a boy of 16 got from his mom a leave to volunteer to the Winter War, but later he blamed her for it (it would indeed been horrible in the other circumstances but at the time the fate of the whole people was at stake). Similarly a young girl insisted that her parents gave her a leave to become a Lotta (the Finnish Womens' volunteer organisation helping the army) but later she accused that her parents didn't care that she "wasted years" (so did everybody else).  

So young people blame parents if they don't give a leave, but when they become older, they blame that parents gave a leave. 

 

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Continueing: Didn't Mischa get difficulties (was he even in the mental hospital?) because he criticized the Afghanistan war? Why was he willing to stay there? The obvious reason was: because he didn't want to let down his comrades. Generally the most important motivation of the soldiers is solidarity towards their primary group.

BTV, Philip seems not have given any thoughts to the extreme bullying in the Soviet army.

 

He was definitely lucky in that case, but I think he probably knew that that was the risk he was taking. He must have known the same thing when Paige said she wanted to work with Elizabeth. He knew it was a terrible choice for her--and she did eventually realize that herself--but in that moment it was what she wanted, so he respected her choice. Same thing in the scene right after this, where he tells Paige the truth. Later, I remember, when she tells Pastor Tim she blames her parents for putting her in the situation of having to keep their secret. So she's doing a similar thing--she says she wants to know the truth no matter what it is, then blames her parents for not knowing what she would want later.

Elizabeth goes to the other extreme and decides to respects her mother even more for deciding on this life for her!

With Mischa I had the same question about his changing attitude. Irina says that he wanted to serve to begin with, so his wanting to stay there could come from the same place. Or he could genuinely feel like leaving would be abandoning his fellow soldiers. Maybe his disillusionment hadn't happened yet at this point. Or maybe he felt pressured to stay. Hell, maybe he wasn't even really asked and Gabriel was just told to tell Philip that's what happened. 

But still, I think Philip was making the choice he thought was right given his own pov, and that was letting the kid decide for themselves who thought they were or should be. Would he have felt terrible if Mischa or Paige got killed as a result of their decision? No question he would--he's Philip. But I think he might feel less guilty than he would have felt if he'd made a decision for them that got them killed or made them resent him. Even in the situations you mentioned, the kid might have always resented the parent for not allowing them to make a mistake as well, because until they experienced the mistake they didn't know what it would be like! Eventually if the kid is an adult they need to take some responsibility. Paige had enough information to make the right choice all along, but she only let go of her delusions when they weren't useful any more--before that she rejected Philip's pointing them out. Both of them are over 18, so it's up to them, imo.

I guess the other example is with Philip's third kid where he decides to just leave Henry behind without talking to him. Paige says Henry will hate them for it and Philip says he knows--so again, he's willing to risk that. Though in that case I feel like Henry really had done so many things that made it clear what his choice would be that it would be hard for him to convince himself he would have chosen differently.

Edited November 29, 2020 by sistermagpie

[Roseanna]

On 11/29/2020 at 11:05 PM, sistermagpie said:

He must have known the same thing when Paige said she wanted to work with Elizabeth. He knew it was a terrible choice for her--and she did eventually realize that herself--but in that moment it was what she wanted, so he respected her choice.

- -

Paige had enough information to make the right choice all along, but she only let go of her delusions when they weren't useful any more--before that she rejected Philip's pointing them out. Both of them are over 18, so it's up to them, imo.

I don't think that Paige had "enough information" - on the contrary, she was told lies and half-truths by her parents about their work. That's of course exactly what people who recruit spies do. But they were her parents and had promised to tell her the truth, but they didn't. F.ex. they  told about her of poisoned wheat but after they discovered that the story was false, they never told it to Paige.

Of course Elizabeth is mostly responsible for manipulating Paige, but Philip let her do it. 

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I don't think that Paige had "enough information" - on the contrary, she was told lies and half-truths by her parents about their work. That's of course exactly what people who recruit spies do. But they were her parents and had promised to tell her the truth, but they didn't. F.ex. they  told about her of poisoned wheat but after they discovered that the story was false, they never told it to Paige.

Of course Elizabeth is mostly responsible for manipulating Paige, but Philip let her do it. 

I honestly think she already had all the information she needed. Because it wasn't just about--or even really about--whether or not they slept with people to get information or killed people who weren't directly threatening them. She was lied to about that, yes, but even when the truth started to come through she rejected it. Like when Philip is saying, "Why would someone kill themselves like that?" about the general she's dismissive rather than asking him what he's obviously saying. Or after Elizabeth has so obviously already admitted that everything Paige read about honey-trapping is true that Paige says "You don't get to tell me who to sleep with" she still sticks with it until she's ready to let it go. (And similarly rejects Claudia's attempt to start to introduce the idea of honeytrapping.) When she's ready and Elizabeth lies to her yet again, she just says it's a lie. 

But even if those things didn't come into it, Paige has more than enough information to know that this isn't the right choice for her. She knows she doesn't like to be a liar, knows she has little or no interest in Russia, knows she doesn't want her mother to tell her what to be, knows she thinks going around robbing banks is wrong, knows she doesn't want to get used to violence. What she's doing without murder or seduction is already criminal and against her actual values. She's already again mentioning sleep issues and overreacting to even non-threats. 

But she agrees to all of that because she decides it's a way to feel secure and not be alone. The lead up to S6 isn't a season of Elizabeth making the USSR sound incredibly enticing. It's a season of Paige being depressed and afraid, saying she thinks she's too messed-up to belong anywhere else or have a real relationship. She lets Pastor Tim and Elizabeth tell her who she is/should be.

Of course, her parents' whitewashing of their work helped make the choice easier, just as Clark's not outright telling Martha he was KGB made it easier for her to keep working for him. But once she wanted to know, she already knew. Doesn't make Clark any less of a liar, but like all their other actual recruits includng Paige, they did get something out of it. 

 

[sistermagpie]

Just watched One Day in the Life of Anton Baklanov...

Still in the small section of the show after Paige finds out but before it becomes all about Pastor Tim. It makes me think of that time Jim/Philip tells Kimmy that her knowing the secret about her dad’s job could bring them together if she doesn’t tell anyone.

These eps seemed more arbitrary on first watch. Now it seems like the show knew where it was going and made deliberate choices to lay out things that would be deciding factors later.

 

NINA

Nina tells Anton she won’t tell anyone about what he’s written to his son and Anton declares that he won’t let these people decide who he’s going to be. You can see how this idea relates to the both of them, particularly Nina, but it’s really signaling how the show will be about the Jennings deciding who they are. In fact, the three main ones all seem to decide who they’re going to be at the end of S5, only to have their real characters demand attention by the end of S6.

 

STAN

Stan appears only to reassure Gaad, who’s trying to figure out how much damage the pen has done. Stan is consistently Gaad’s biggest support while never being completely trustworthy or loyal to him. It’s maybe fitting Stan winds up finally being told off by Gaad’s wife who, like Lisa’s husband Maurice, has a clearer perspective on him than Gaad did.

 

HENRY

Henry has a biology test that his parents are on top of. The show went to the trouble of presenting Henry as a recalcitrant student who suddenly became a good student only to have viewers think it’s his parents who weren’t paying attention to him! Paige telling Henry, “Eat your breakfast” is one of those moments that gets her seen as being his parent, but she’s just being a teenager with a little brother she wants to shut up.

Last week Philip brought Paige a plate of scrambled eggs to her room, today it’s waffles. It’s always Sunday brunch at the Jennings house!

 

OLEG

Arkady makes the mail robot bug seem like it’s this amazing coup (It can go through the halls of the FBI in any direction!) and then of course it’s all smalltalk and beeps.

 

MARTHA

Martha briefly freaks out about Walter Taffet, but performs just fine when questioned. Clark teaching her how to lie is really enjoyable. (And all the nose shots are funny.) Many thought this would come back to bite Philip, but it’s really just a good lesson when he says that somebody like Taffet doesn’t have superpowers—just as Elizabeth turns out not to have superpowers when Maurice sees through her act. It makes sense there’s no polygraph when Martha speaks to Taffet in this interview. He’s not asking those kinds of questions.

The most interesting moment, to me, is when Martha says that she’s worried about talking to Taffet because before she could say she was doing it for Clark, but now she knows that he’s not…them. She comes SO CLOSE and then backs away from the issue of exactly who Clark must be.

 

PAIGE

Paige has three scenes with her parents. In the first and last, she fires off questions. I was always frustrated that she never asks them (especially Philip) about their life in Russia because that’s what *I* wanted to know, but now I think it’s an intentional, consistent character choice we need.

Because at first, I assumed there would be an evolution, that she would start out more focused on her own immediate surroundings (are you married? Is the agency real? Are we really your children?) and then move toward interest in her parents’ origins. But I think that’s the key—to her their foreignness is a bug, not a feature.

That is, I think it’s central to her character that she doesn’t find them intriguing as Russians. She’s always going in the other direction, even when she’s having Russia lessons. In this ep Elizabeth gives her a big chunk of exposition about her childhood and Paige’s response is simply, “How can I believe anything you say?”

That happens in her middle scene with Elizabeth, which takes place in the garage. Paige is sitting in the car alone. She says she wanted to get away from Henry’s Eddie Murphy impressions, but she’s sitting behind the wheel of a car. There’s no way this isn’t meant to imply some thoughts of running away. The car is even facing outward, unlike when Elizabeth drives it in later. I don’t think she’s literally thinking of driving off, but this is someone who last season said she couldn’t wait to get away to college and normal people. Henry actually will get himself away when he’s younger than Paige is now. It’s not impossible.

But Paige will never do it. Here again, she’s drawn in the direction of the familiar. I don’t mean she’s completely closed off to new experiences; obviously the church was new for her. But the church was also an ordered world full of normal people—a step towards the familiar, not away from it. Whatever she said about college, Paige goes to the only school she ever mentioned thinking about, iirc, which is in DC. She'll have a car and an apartment, but spend more time with mom than ever. Elizabeth once mentions Paige having saved money to go to Europe, but only to complain that Paige gave it all away instead. (So maybe it was Elizabeth who cared more about her going to Europe and Paige is satisfied with a poster that says PARIS in her bedroom.)

So, the image here is perfect: Paige behind the wheel of a car going nowhere. When she finally does break from her parents, she won’t do it by leaving them. She’ll do it by getting off the train before it crosses the foreign border and returning to a place she knows. She’s not American in the sense of being super xenophobic or patriotic, but she is American in that if she goes to go to a foreign country a tour group will be fine .

 

PHILIP

In the two scenes with her, Philip is the one answering most of her questions, briefly and truthfully, imo, based on what she’s really asking. He’s giving her space, following her lead, maybe trying to earn some trust. His method of dealing with sources, like Elizabeth’s, can’t help but spill over into his real relationships. Or maybe the other way around.

The most interesting foreshadowing with Philip, though, is the scene with Gabriel where Gabriel tells him to lower his voice. On first watch that obviously reminded me of Paige in her first scene. But this time it made me remember Gabriel in S5 talking to Mischa, shushing him with, “No Russian!” Then I realized oh hey, that scene also takes place on a bench iirc. Then I thought wait, Mischa and Philip are even both asking for the same thing from Gabriel. Philip wants Elizabeth to see her mother for the last time; Mischa wants to see his father for the first and possibly only time.

Then I realized that Gabriel reacts to Philip by asking him if he’s “falling apart.” He’s gaslighting him, suggesting that questioning the motives/wisdom of the state implies a weak mind. Which of course, is just like Mischa, who will be thrown into a mental hospital for protesting the war in Afghanistan!

On one hand it’s just a neat parallel, but there’s other stuff there too. Elizabeth considers herself the quintessential Soviet, but Philip's the one connected to the younger, living Russian generation in multiple ways.

 

ELIZABETH

This is the ep where Elizabeth is turned on by sex with the hotel manager, something I would connect less to the guy’s skill in bed (though without that I doubt it would have happened) and more to the fact she’s gone a long time without having sex with anyone but Philip. It’s the opposite of S6 where she makes herself so numb she’s barely sleeping with him. When she returns home, upset over the encounter, she tears up in the car, the same place she had the earlier conversation with Paige, again linking Elizabeth discomfort with sex work to Paige.

Unlike Philip, Elizabeth is often trying to take control of the conversation with Paige. She does it in in the first and last convos, and then there’s that important middle scene in the car, which is just the two of them without Philip.

Elizabeth finds Paige in the car (asking if she’s “going somewhere”) before launching into memories about her childhood. On one hand this is a logical thing to talk about: start from the beginning and explain who she is. Talk about your family because Paige has mentioned not having extended family. But it’s Elizabeth who enjoys the memory. When Paige responds simply by asking how she can ever trust anything Elizabeth says, it leaves Elizabeth at a loss.

Both Elizabeth and Philip sometimes get caught, but being rejected as a liar is obviously way more important for Elizabeth’s story than Philip’s. Philip's narrative is often about long-term source relationships that withstand the revelations of deceit. Elizabeth doesn’t really have those. She has more aggressive, short-term job (she’s taken over Lisa’s whole life very quickly) where she comes on strong, gets dramatic results, and disappears.

So it’s fitting that line from Paige is in the same ep where Lisa’s husband Maurice sees through Elizabeth’s scam to sell info from Northrup. Maurice could have destroyed the whole plan. Luckily for Elizabeth, he decided to join her in exploiting his wife instead. (I don’t think, btw, that Maurice necessarily knows Elizabeth is a spy. He might just think she’s a crafty drunk who would naturally sell her security clearance. Also Elizabeth's skin as Michelle doesn’t look great —I wonder if she has one of those skin discolorations that she has in the last season that made people think Elizabeth had AIDS.)

Elizabeth rarely tells someone the truth just because it’s the truth. (Certainly not as often as Philip does.) In the car, Elizabeth tells Paige how her mother always won screaming fights with the neighbors, that she had a “real spirit” which Paige also has. Paige does have spirit and Elizabeth has been on the receiving end of Paige yelling at her, but it’s not like this story sounds like it’s about Paige. It’s more like one of those lines where Elizabeth seems to be saying something about Paige in order to make it true.

The other important thing about this story in retrospect, imo, is that it’s a story about Elizabeth’s mom being tough/not afraid. When traumatized Paige hands herself over to Elizabeth, she’s hoping to become tough like her two grandmothers and her parents.

Elizabeth also says about Paige and Henry that, “we wanted you—both of you—more than you could possibly know.” That, we know, is a deliberate lie. Elizabeth loves and wants the kids she has, but there’s multiple scenes about how Elizabeth did not want children. Even specific references to her not wanting each kid when she was pregnant them. Of course, Elizabeth shouldn’t tell Paige this, but there’s no reason to bring up the subject at all, since Paige didn’t. (Asking if you’re adopted is not the same as asking if you were wanted.) The two things Elizabeth says about Paige herself in the car are already more pleasing than truthful.

Elizabeth is also, of course, also taking control of the conversation here, giving Paige information that’s important to her rather than answering questions that Paige herself has asked. Paige’s questions were about the present, not Elizabeth's past.

Which seems relevant in the first scene when Paige asks them what their real names are. It’s a question with many possibly responses, and it winds up that Philip gives Paige a name she can easily repeat (Mischa) while Elizabeth chooses the longer form (Nadezhda) Paige gives up on pronouncing. (Poor Kerri Russell pronounces it badly, then repeats it slowly as if emphasizing her own mispronunciation. It’s like if her real name was Heather and she carefully repeated it for her Russian daughter as “Kh-yez-er.”) And she does it after Philip says Mischa, so she rejected the Nadya form before she said chose to say Nadezhda.

Btw, I just realized this really could be the first time Elizabeth hears Philip’s name. She earlier heard that Philip’s son was called Mischa, but there’s nothing in her silent reaction that says she’s realizing they have the same name. In that scene (re-watched it to check), Elizabeth’s reaction to the name isn’t played as too important--the camera stays on Philip for a beat after he says it. Elizabeth's reaction shot after that is more general. Here in the kitchen, when Philip says his name it cuts to Elizabeth looking at him for a beat before speaking. She has more of a reaction than she does to him saying his son’s name. Doesn’t mean she didn’t know it, but if you want to read it that way, it works. Plus, it underlines how honest Philip is being to Paige. And it’s neat to think that Paige is missing an intimate moment for her Mom.

[Umbelina]

On 11/29/2020 at 1:05 PM, sistermagpie said:

With Mischa I had the same question about his changing attitude. Irina says that he wanted to serve to begin with, so his wanting to stay there could come from the same place. Or he could genuinely feel like leaving would be abandoning his fellow soldiers. Maybe his disillusionment hadn't happened yet at this point. Or maybe he felt pressured to stay. Hell, maybe he wasn't even really asked and Gabriel was just told to tell Philip that's what happened. 

Yes, all of those are possible.  I'll add another possibility, perhaps he was trying to help the victims in small ways already.

I think it's more likely he would suffer enormous backlash if he left, and he knew that.

Gabriel lying would be the most "true to spy life" option.  I always feel they missed the boat with that character.  They gave him quite a bit, but if they had just gone a tiny bit further...and showed the truth behind his dealings with Philip.  They best they did was when he was talking about the murders he was forced to participate in with Stalin, and waiting for the knock on the door, hoping it wasn't HIS door.  That was wonderful as background, but I wish they'd related it to Gabriel "still following orders" in manipulating Philip and Elizabeth (as spies do, every single day.)  Honestly, his story alone could make a fabulous TV show.

To this day, I choose to believe that he "retired" to avoid being the one to kill Philip, that Gabriel finally drew his line in the sand, it took until the end of his life, but he got there.

On 12/12/2020 at 6:38 PM, sistermagpie said:

OLEG

Arkady makes the mail robot bug seem like it’s this amazing coup (It can go through the halls of the FBI in any direction!) and then of course it’s all smalltalk and beeps.

Again, that is another thing I really loved.  In my rather excessive consumption of spy novels, especially those written by former spies?  That's pretty much how spy life is, but it doesn't make for fast action TV shows or novels.  Accomplish a little (but huge in reality) thing that simply doesn't pan out.  Spying is, or was, back before cyber spying and the kind of computers we have today?  Mostly like fishing in a large lake that had almost no fish, and most of the ones that are there are too small to make a meal.

However if you hook one of the small ones?  With skill and endless patience and waiting, perhaps you can use it for bait to fish for a larger one.

On 12/12/2020 at 6:38 PM, sistermagpie said:

Paige has three scenes with her parents. In the first and last, she fires off questions. I was always frustrated that she never asks them (especially Philip) about their life in Russia because that’s what *I* wanted to know, but now I think it’s an intentional, consistent character choice we need.

Because at first, I assumed there would be an evolution, that she would start out more focused on her own immediate surroundings (are you married? Is the agency real? Are we really your children?) and then move toward interest in her parents’ origins. But I think that’s the key—to her their foreignness is a bug, not a feature.

That is, I think it’s central to her character that she doesn’t find them intriguing as Russians. She’s always going in the other direction, even when she’s having Russia lessons. In this ep Elizabeth gives her a big chunk of exposition about her childhood and Paige’s response is simply, “How can I believe anything you say?”

You are always so kind to these writers!  ❤️  

In truth, Paige was so underwritten and so completely unbelievable as a character that hinging so much on this, in addition, very mediocre actress was the biggest mistake the show made.  

While in life, I agree, some teenagers really can be as stupid as Paige?  Even the most stupid would have better questions, and more curiosity about things that actually matter.  At the very least?  There is not a chance Paige would agree to fight for Russia without investigating Russia.  It wouldn't have taken much, it was on TV all the time, they were the great enemy.  Their people were starving and abused, they shot people trying to escape over that horrific wall.  The bread lines and shoe lines and empty stores were on the news nearly every night.

Yet, NOT ONE TIME did Paige even ask about any of that, let alone about their nuclear power being a threat to her country.

It's was all presented as "Yay, cool!  I get to be a spy!  I don't care why!  Just to be closer to mommy, oh yeah, and FUCK DAD, the guy I've always been closest to, I won't even talk with him!"  

I mean, seriously?  Even in the hands of a skilled actress, none of that makes one bit of sense.

On 12/12/2020 at 6:38 PM, sistermagpie said:

Then I realized that Gabriel reacts to Philip by asking him if he’s “falling apart.” He’s gaslighting him, suggesting that questioning the motives/wisdom of the state implies a weak mind. Which of course, is just like Mischa, who will be thrown into a mental hospital for protesting the war in Afghanistan!

On one hand it’s just a neat parallel, but there’s other stuff there too. Elizabeth considers herself the quintessential Soviet, but Philip's the one connected to the younger, living Russian generation in multiple ways.

Gabriel was his handler, and doing his job.  Again, I wish we'd seen more of that side of things, from Gabe's POV.  

Well, Philip's side wins, only sadly, both Elizabeth and Philip will already be dead when that happens.  What a complete cop out to end this show right before the USSR (a main character after all) dies.  

Yes, I'm still angry about the ending.  GRRRR  I'm mostly angry because it, in spite of me trying to put it out of my mind, taints the rest of a show I really loved.  A bad ending (and I think this was a REALLY bad ending all the way around, from Stan, to Oleg's family, actually for every single character on screen) rarely completely ruins a show for me.  This one?  Did.

I can still go back and enjoy the Martha scenes, and most of the Philip scenes, especially those that didn't involve Paige.  Heck there is so much there to like, but it's very hard for me to put the ending out of my mind and just enjoy what was good.  

On 12/12/2020 at 6:38 PM, sistermagpie said:

This is the ep where Elizabeth is turned on by sex with the hotel manager, something I would connect less to the guy’s skill in bed (though without that I doubt it would have happened) and more to the fact she’s gone a long time without having sex with anyone but Philip. It’s the opposite of S6 where she makes herself so numb she’s barely sleeping with him. When she returns home, upset over the encounter, she tears up in the car, the same place she had the earlier conversation with Paige, again linking Elizabeth discomfort with sex work to Paige.

I think it could happen.  It would be horrifying for someone like Elizabeth, that this stranger, this mark, was able to touch her, especially in that way, when she was supposed to be in full on, disconnect, spy mode.  She tried pulling her moves on him, but that didn't work, he wanted her, not just her body, he wanted to please her, and when she tried to get to that place to "make it work" with him, she slipped over into real, just long enough to enjoy it, and be horrified by it.

On 12/12/2020 at 6:38 PM, sistermagpie said:

Here in the kitchen, when Philip says his name it cuts to Elizabeth looking at him for a beat before speaking. She has more of a reaction than she does to him saying his son’s name. Doesn’t mean she didn’t know it, but if you want to read it that way, it works. Plus, it underlines how honest Philip is being to Paige. And it’s neat to think that Paige is missing an intimate moment for her Mom.

Good catch!  I wonder if that was true, it's certainly possible, because Elizabeth would never violate orders, and it's likely they were ordered to never use real names even when alone.

On 12/6/2020 at 12:25 PM, Roseanna said:

I don't think that Paige had "enough information" - on the contrary, she was told lies and half-truths by her parents about their work. That's of course exactly what people who recruit spies do. But they were her parents and had promised to tell her the truth, but they didn't. F.ex. they  told about her of poisoned wheat but after they discovered that the story was false, they never told it to Paige.

Of course Elizabeth is mostly responsible for manipulating Paige, but Philip let her do it. 

I completely agree.  Paige was fed nothing but lies.  Sure, some of the lies were Elizabeth lying to herself first "Paige will never have to do that (the things Elizabeth has done.)"  

That's another place it falls apart for me.  We know Elizabeth lies to herself all the time, lies to almost everyone really, except Gabe and Claudia, and frankly, she's lied to them as well.  Lying is a huge part of spying, so it's understandable.  However, Paige has NO connection to the things Elizabeth believes in, specifically to the USSR.  She has no reason to buy all the lies.  She can look at the news, read books, has all kinds of sources at her disposal.  Hell, Solzhenitsyn's books were best sellers!  Even if she didn't read them, she never read a book review, or listened to a discussion about them on a TV show?  It's utterly ridiculous.

On 12/6/2020 at 3:22 PM, sistermagpie said:

I honestly think she already had all the information she needed. Because it wasn't just about--or even really about--whether or not they slept with people to get information or killed people who weren't directly threatening them. She was lied to about that, yes, but even when the truth started to come through she rejected it. Like when Philip is saying, "Why would someone kill themselves like that?" about the general she's dismissive rather than asking him what he's obviously saying. Or after Elizabeth has so obviously already admitted that everything Paige read about honey-trapping is true that Paige says "You don't get to tell me who to sleep with" she still sticks with it until she's ready to let it go. (And similarly rejects Claudia's attempt to start to introduce the idea of honeytrapping.) When she's ready and Elizabeth lies to her yet again, she just says it's a lie. 

But even if those things didn't come into it, Paige has more than enough information to know that this isn't the right choice for her. She knows she doesn't like to be a liar, knows she has little or no interest in Russia, knows she doesn't want her mother to tell her what to be, knows she thinks going around robbing banks is wrong, knows she doesn't want to get used to violence. What she's doing without murder or seduction is already criminal and against her actual values. She's already again mentioning sleep issues and overreacting to even non-threats. 

But she agrees to all of that because she decides it's a way to feel secure and not be alone. The lead up to S6 isn't a season of Elizabeth making the USSR sound incredibly enticing. It's a season of Paige being depressed and afraid, saying she thinks she's too messed-up to belong anywhere else or have a real relationship. She lets Pastor Tim and Elizabeth tell her who she is/should be.

Of course, her parents' whitewashing of their work helped make the choice easier, just as Clark's not outright telling Martha he was KGB made it easier for her to keep working for him. But once she wanted to know, she already knew. Doesn't make Clark any less of a liar, but like all their other actual recruits includng Paige, they did get something out of it. 

 

Yeah, and I didn't and don't buy any of that.  She would have a best friend.  She would be interested in boys now, it's biological.  Parents importance naturally drops off in those years, as teens not just prepare, but DO begin to leave the "nest."  

In better hands, better writing, better actress, would/could this have worked?  Maybe.  Now we see that the writers were plunging headlong into their ridiculous ending all along though.  So, for many reasons, Paige was never "real" or fleshed out, she was simply a tool, a means to their idiotic idea of consequences for the character they really cared about, Elizabeth.

Paige on the train tracks was supposed to make up for all the innocent people Elizabeth had murdered (some with Paige as accessory) over the year.  

Sure.

On 12/12/2020 at 6:38 PM, sistermagpie said:

Martha briefly freaks out about Walter Taffet, but performs just fine when questioned. Clark teaching her how to lie is really enjoyable. (And all the nose shots are funny.) Many thought this would come back to bite Philip, but it’s really just a good lesson when he says that somebody like Taffet doesn’t have superpowers—just as Elizabeth turns out not to have superpowers when Maurice sees through her act. It makes sense there’s no polygraph when Martha speaks to Taffet in this interview. He’s not asking those kinds of questions.

I can still watch the Martha scenes!  All of her story was so well done, and many of my most memorable moments are with her, alone, or with Philip, or Taffett, or Gabriel, she just shone.   Every moment was believable to me, and honestly, it took me a while to warm up to her.  I think, in the beginning, I was cared much more about the Philip and Elizabeth relationship, so Martha was kind of in the way.  As a bit of time passed, I finally woke up to the wonder of Martha and her story, fully enjoyable and truthful from start to end.

I wonder if there is a compilation of "just Martha" scenes out there on the web somewhere?  

On 12/12/2020 at 6:38 PM, sistermagpie said:

These eps seemed more arbitrary on first watch. Now it seems like the show knew where it was going and made deliberate choices to lay out things that would be deciding factors later.

The writers said they knew at the end of season 2 didn't they?  I think it was season two.

They were talented, I wish they'd rethought it.  I wish they'd focused more on Philip's childhood, and much less on Elizabeth's, but I think they were so enamored (and in some ways rightly) of a spy couple where it was the WOMAN who was tough and unyielding and brave and dedicated, and in many ways, the hero for her country, instead of the typical story about a man being tough and a woman being soft and the more reflective of the two.  That part was fine, really, and a nice twist or hook for a story.  

It's just what they ended up doing with it that doesn't work for me.  

As always, great job dissecting an episode @sistermagpie!

Have you a favorite episode now?

[sistermagpie]

On 12/21/2020 at 4:12 PM, Umbelina said:

Yet, NOT ONE TIME did Paige even ask about any of that, let alone about their nuclear power being a threat to her country.

It's was all presented as "Yay, cool!  I get to be a spy!  I don't care why!  Just to be closer to mommy, oh yeah, and FUCK DAD, the guy I've always been closest to, I won't even talk with him!"  

I mean, seriously?  Even in the hands of a skilled actress, none of that makes one bit of sense.

 

On 12/21/2020 at 4:12 PM, Umbelina said:

However, Paige has NO connection to the things Elizabeth believes in, specifically to the USSR.  She has no reason to buy all the lies.  She can look at the news, read books, has all kinds of sources at her disposal.  Hell, Solzhenitsyn's books were best sellers!  Even if she didn't read them, she never read a book review, or listened to a discussion about them on a TV show?  It's utterly ridiculous.

I do admit that there's a difference between something playing out as realistic and organic onscreen (like with Martha) and seeing the bones of it in the writing, which is more what I feel like I'm doing now!

But still, those bones really are consistent. If the flaws of the USSR were something we were supposed to imagine Paige had accepted or dismissed, I don't think she'd be so devoid of any opinions on the USSR as I remember her being. But if the whole point is that she has given up trying to wrestle with her own issues and do whatever her mother thinks she should do because Mom's always so sure of herself, then she'd have every reason to not think about it. Mom's telling her how to be tough and not afraid. This is the same girl who will deal with being freaked out by a guy taking her arm in a bar the night before by needing spar with Mom. Like she's trying to recapture the way she felt when she was just imagining herself taking out badguys.

So what if that one book she talks about having read in S6--that is, shortly after she started working--is her trying for the first time to deal with the reality? Maybe she was hoping to find tales of heroism in the book that would calm her doubts, and instead just hearing that they used sex was enough to start the whole house of cards coming down. But she's trying to hang onto the fantasy. I think that's why, iirc, she seems to get more snotty to Philip as the season goes on. Surely every time he looks at her she knows he's seeing through her, so she has to be disdainful of him, especially when he's telling her to her face she's being lied to. Probably just like she tries to feel above the kids in her class that aren't her friends, the ones who think they're so political and don't understand the truth that Elizabeth and Claudia are always talking about. 

Training might have just felt like spending time with her mom and feeling super capable and destined to join a powerful group (God knows there's little evidence that it prepared her the way it did Hans since she can't do the job). Why interfere with that by picking apart Mom's lies when she's just learning? But once she's worked long enough to start looking around and imagining this as her life, the obvious starts to come through. Not the obvious about the USSR, but the obvious about the life she's going to have, where she'll probably always be alone, doing bad things and feeling afraid for a mother who orders her around and lies to her 24/7.

Would it have worked better with a different performance? It's a really odd pov, so it's hard to rely on the audience to get it no matter who's playing it. It's not like with Martha (who is also unbelievably stupid if you don't assume she's in denial) where we could understand how she imagined things before she learned she was wrong. But when I think about S6 especially it seems like there was actually a pretty active story going on that could have been brought out more in the performance. With Paige you have that thing where nothing's very specific so Paige asking about something is always Paige asking about something, for instance, so it doesn't feel like anything particular going on beneath that. I think that does affect how the story comes across, especially in contrast to Elizabeth, who's always so precise that a question is never just a question. It makes it easy for Elizabeth's pov to just dominate all their scenes even when Paige has most of the lines. With Martha you could could stop wondering why she was doing something and just watch, fascinated, for what she would do next.

 

On 12/21/2020 at 4:12 PM, Umbelina said:

Gabriel was his handler, and doing his job.  Again, I wish we'd seen more of that side of things, from Gabe's POV.  

 

This is what I love about the moment so much! Because Gabriel at this point just instinctively speaks from the same POV as the state. He's not personally trying to mess with Philip, he just automatically tries to put him back where he needs to be both for the job and for his own safety. He's not thinking about it on a deeper level than that, but eventually he does. (More on that below)

On 12/21/2020 at 4:12 PM, Umbelina said:

Gabriel was his handler, and doing his job.  Again, I wish we'd seen more of that side of things, from Gabe's POV.  

 

And also a real name isn't necessarily something Philip would think was that important in that context. Iow, that wouldn't be a rule he'd be particularly dying to break anyway, if not asked directly.  

On 12/21/2020 at 4:12 PM, Umbelina said:

They were talented, I wish they'd rethought it.  I wish they'd focused more on Philip's childhood, and much less on Elizabeth's, but I think they were so enamored (and in some ways rightly) of a spy couple where it was the WOMAN who was tough and unyielding and brave and dedicated, and in many ways, the hero for her country, instead of the typical story about a man being tough and a woman being soft and the more reflective of the two.  That part was fine, really, and a nice twist or hook for a story.  

 

The other thing that's interesting about that for me is that while Elizabeth is a great character as the true believer, it meant that a lot of her backstory was variations on a theme. As a character she would be more likely to reminisce or talk about the past, because she was always telling herself who she was. She intentionally remembered this stuff becuase she wanted to use it as a guide. So you were rarely learning anything much new, even with the one big secret, that her father was shot as a traitor.

Whereas with Philip when we did finally get something about his past it tended to be not only really dramatic, but the opposite of what one might have thought. Like early on many thought he had a happy childhood and was maybe even rich because Elizabeth was the one focused on deprivation. Or some assumed that since he didn't talk about his family that it turned out existed, it meant he just didn't care about them. But in both cases the opposite seemed to be true--he was more shaped by hunger and family--he just repressed where Elizabeth obsessed. So he remained more of a mystery while Elizabeth was explained multiple times. Philip wasn't following lessons he'd been taught, his past had just made him who he was.

That made me think of what you said about Gabriel, too, and comparing him with Claudia. The show seemed to recognize Elizabeth/Claudia as one of its star dynamics, but sometimes to me that seemed more about Elizabeth's beat-down of Claudia being such a crowd pleaser and Claudia being Margo Martindale. Claudia remained exactly who she introduced herself as back in S1 and never changed--that was central to who she was. She was who Elizabeth might have become, saw Elizabeth as her spiritual successor etc. It felt like their last scene was supposed to be a big culmination of this great relationship when I was left not really buying it. It felt more about the scene they felt "Margo Martindale as Claudia" deserved than Claudia who'd just tricked Elizabeth into taking part in a coup and wearing a suicide pill.

Gabriel actually seemed like the one with the arc, starting out the perfect professional handler, a much more skilful manipulator than Claudia. But then he started to question who he really was and why--probably in part because Philip, unlike Elizabeth, asked these tough questions. And so when he went back to Russia he started being a different person, making amends to Philip's people. He didn't need to hook up Mischa with the family or get Martha a child, but it was something he could do. He was a different person than when he started. Claudia was still Claudia and always would be. The scenes about this tended to be quieter, but they were more complicated imo. 

On 12/21/2020 at 4:12 PM, Umbelina said:

Have you a favorite episode now?

Good question--I'm not sure! I'll have to go back and remind myself what was what. I think I'm enjoying S3 even more than I did the first time--not that I didn't like it the first time, but it feels like there's a lot more in there now! The ones I remember liking I still do, like Walter Taffet. I know there was another one this season that I really liked this time so I'll have to look back to remember which one that was.

Edited December 23, 2020 by sistermagpie

[GodsBeloved]

I finally decided to check out The Americans. I’m only in season 1 and I don’t like most of these people so I’m not sure I’ll make it to the end 😂

 

[sistermagpie]

Just watched I Am Abassin Zadran. Not a favorite episode, except for the banger last scene that’s all the better for coming out of nowhere. On this re-watch I developed a theory. It’ll probably sound like fan-wanking or like I’ve thought about it more than the show etc., but it feels really consistent with the themes and plot and plugs some holes so…

 

STAN

Stan and Adderholt have a testy conversation where Adderholt says he knows Stan was having an affair with Nina and maybe he’s the traitor. Stan counters by saying maybe the illegal woman he shot is the same one who beat up Gaad…which really has nothing to do with the pen! Stan’s hatred for that Illegal couple is like his one big proof of loyalty and he’s going to eventually let them go.

You can hear the mail robot beep at the end of this convo. It was thought at the time that maybe that meant they’d been recorded but it’s the opposite. The show’s rubbing our face in the fact that a conversation that would interest the KGB just happened and the mail robot was only heard approaching from a distance when it was over. That’s how inefficient it is.

Stan does show good instincts by going to see Martha and freaking her out. He noticed her staring into her coffee as he notes similar distraction in Paige.

 

PAIGE

There’s a couple of times in the future where Paige tells her parents that their behavior with the Pastor needs to be corrected to appear “normal” to the outside world, but there’s nobody so inappropriate on this show as Pastor Tim. Here he’s inviting a teenager to sleep over on a school night. He once again says he thought her parents knew, but he doesn’t say anything to Paige about *lying* about that, so he seems to have just either invited her or agreed with her plans without checking. He acts as if all three of them—him, Alice and Paige, were confused.

Paige processes this through her feelings, rather than objectively assessing things strategically—something it turns out she won’t grow out of. Not being able to signal to him that something’s wrong is the same to her as not being allowed to see him at all. It does make sense she’d value truth in relationships since she’s grown up feeling like her parents lie to her while keeping secrets with each other, but it also shows that she really doesn’t want to be a spy.

After she confronts her parents with another fake relative (I thought she didn’t have any relatives?), Philip tries to show her how lies and truth can co-exist. This ep references a family trip to SeaWorld and camping in the Blue Ridge Mountains--they have plenty of normal, warm family memories. Paige tells Philip Henry made her promise not tell him how he was afraid of being eaten by a bear and it’s hard to tell if this story means they will be able to trust her or not—turns out not. She’s not a tattletale, but she’s no vault either.

Paige pointedly doesn’t ask for details when Philip says Elizabeth was away for 3 months because she “wasn’t well” and needed to “recover” even though this obviously suggests a serious injury. Paige doesn’t want to know. When Elizabeth invites her to come meet her grandmother the song on the radio helpfully repeats “This means nothing to me” which doesn’t bode well for Paige’s Russian connection!

Btw, when Elizabeth is messing with hotel phone lines the first conversation snippet she hears is somebody saying that GW “isn’t as strong a school” – the show loves reminding us that Paige’s alma mater is not super competitive. LOL.

This ep also includes a conversation between Claudia and Gabriel in a diner—a scene that Margo Martindale somehow won an Emmy for! It’s a favorite because Gabriel asks how the Centre reacted when they learned Jared killed his own family. Claudia paints a dramatic picture of people fired in disgrace and everyone in mourning and fearing Directorate S would be shut down…before they decided to just do it again.

 

HANS

Philip explicitly endorses Hans in this ep when he keeps him from knocking on Martha’s door while Stan is there. There was always a question of whether Hans was supposed to be good at his job or not, and it was suggested that watching Martha was just training for him, but this ep shows how important the lookout job he’s doing is. While we don’t know for sure if Paige would have done as well in this situation as Hans, we know that in general she can’t be counted on as a lookout. Nobody would want to trust her with what Hans is doing here.

 

MARTHA

Martha contemplates making her own run for it, to her parents rather than away from them like Paige. She’s reeled back in again when Clark puts himself in her hands by de-wigging. This time around it reminds me just a bit of Claudia and Elizabeth reeling an annoyed Paige back into the fold in S6. But where Philip does it by giving Martha some truth, Claudia and Elizabeth put on a “we’re besties” performance that’s more of an act.

I remember hearing the de-wigging was originally planned for the series finale, but you can see how it works better here—it’d be too much in the next ep (and it really let us stew in our juices about it during the next ep). Martha says that although she told her mother to turn her room into a sewing room when she left at 18, her mother never did it. On one hand it shows her parents love her, otoh it suggests they always thought she’d wind up failing and coming home. All the little details we get about Martha’s past consistently show her as being too romantic with an adventurous streak and she breaks my heart.

Doesn’t help that she’s wearing a hideous pink sweater with ruffles and bows in this scene like a little girl. Philip’s sources always seem much sadder than Elizabeth’s, but I think that’s because along with their being lonely, isolated people, he opens himself up to caring about them and getting to know them, so we do too.

 

ELIZABETH

Lisa successfully the purse camera Paige uses in S6. Maurice has been out of work and feels unmanly, so he’s takes back control by taking over the operation. Poor Lisa’s going to keep trying to make him feel like a man until it kills her. He briefly tries to refuse a sedative for Lisa as if he’s suddenly the protector of her sobriety when he’s pushing her into this crime and off the wagon. Sort of like Elizabeth wanting to both throw Paige into spying and protect her by lying about the dirtiest bits.

Elizabeth is annoyed at having to deal with Maurice, but shows no reaction to Lisa having this guy for a husband. That’s consistent with her attitude towards sources compared to Philip’s.

Although Philip says he will take Paige to meet her grandmother if Elizabeth doesn’t, there’s really no hint that Elizabeth is doing this for Philip—he’s giving her a way to see her mother without feeling like she’s indulging herself. It’s one of the ways they work together.

At one point Elizabeth physically tries to shut Paige up with her hand—things are not going the way she imagined they would! (I don’t think Paige’s reaction to that is as effective as it could be, btw.) Elizabeth also gets one of her great withering remarks about church in this ep. It’s hilarious, but also interesting that she’s spent months in this community and still talks like it’s completely alien to her.

 

PHILIP

When Philip tells Elizabeth about Stan going to see Martha, she suggests a romantic motivation. I remember at the time people took Philip’s “With Martha?” response as an insult to Martha, but I don’t think that’s the point. Obviously, Philip himself has no trouble imagining being interested in Martha—he even had to kill a jealous ex! I think his reaction is more about the fact that these are two people he knows intimately. Martha is not Stan’s type, nor is Stan Martha’s.

When Martha makes it clear to him that he won’t be able to talk her into not going, he bows his head just like he does before he “unmasks” before Stan in the garage. He takes off the hairpiece in a way that makes it look like he’s literally peeling his face off--love how you can see how the front of his hair is painted to match it. In the earlier scene with Martha, too, you can actually see in the harsher light the lines drawn onto his face just a bit. (Wish his glasses didn’t look so dirty at the end, though!) Philip might really have a career designing men’s fashion, btw, given the subtly of his disguises!

This time around we know that he’s going to keep his de-wigging a secret from Elizabeth, which is a great character note given how it’s going to be so important in S6. Philip lying is a big deal with Irina in S1, but that lie isn’t really the same. It doesn’t say much about his character, other than in that moment he didn’t want Elizabeth to know he slept with her. In this case, he’s keeping a secret that seems more about an instinct to protect Martha and his own rebellious impulse, more like with Oleg, which to me fits more with his personality and Elizabeth sometimes seeming like a representative of the State.

 

THE REZIDENTURA

So, here’s my theory. In this ep, Arkady decides to cancel the mail robot Op (aka Operation Zephyr, aka Operation Marshmallow). Sure, the bug might pick up something, but the odds of that are too small to make it worth the time and money—Arkady is a good manager. But then Tatiana, the most political at the Rez, talks to Oleg and they convince Arkady to not do that. He’s a good boss and they’re protecting him.

Tatiana lays it out clearly why: if Arkady cancels a program with so much “potential,” he won’t get others to oversee. It’s better, she warns, for the operation to start to fail slowly than for Arkady to admit right now it’s a failure. Oleg agrees that this is something his Dad does at the Ministry.

“Failing slowly” is a dominant theme in S6, from the travel agency to Elizabeth’s assignments to trying to make Paige a credible spy. This might be a central appeal of the series—Philip and Elizabeth’s mission fails slowly, but the marriage slowly succeeds!

Tatiana and Oleg are not convincing Arkady that he’s wrong about the program. They’re convincing him to let it slowly start to fail rather than terminate it. What will that look like, exactly? At the start, it will look like enthusiastically working the bug: Tatiana finds a casual exchange to spin into signs of infidelity. The difference is that they’ve gone from expecting results to pretending to expect and, if necessary, manufacturing results. Over time, this useless bug will slip down the list of priorities, failing without anyone having to take the fall for it. The operation is still happening—it’s not like they’ve stopped it. They’re just expecting to be able to gradually lower their investment.

We’ll see the same thing in S5 when Philip and Elizabeth tell the Centre the wheat plot doesn’t exist and the Centre tells them, iirc, they have to keep sleeping with those two randos anyway. Iow, they don’t cancel the Op, but it’s probably petered out by S6. Tatiana’s telling us something here important about Soviet bureaucracy and how people survive in it.

So why is this important? My theory is that this Rez story illuminates the diner conversation b/w Claudia and Gabriel. This is the real explanation for trying again after the Connors’ murders. The second-gen program was a priority with Jared, but even after it blew up in their face, nobody wanted to cancel a program with so much “potential,” because if they did that, it would hurt them politically/professionally.

It fits everything we see later, especially stuff that didn’t fit before. On re-watch S3 you can’t help but notice the difference in how the 2nd gen story is handled here in S3 compared to S6. In S3 we’ve got Gabriel pulled out of retirement, fraught convos b/w him and the Jennings, pressure from the Centre to tell Paige, requests for weekly reports about what Paige is doing at church, etc.

S6 might have been the triumph of all this, with Paige poised to enter the world as a spy. Instead, the tone is totally different—and not just because Paige herself isn’t up to the task. The program’s still happening—there’s the Russia club and Paige is trained and doing jobs, but the previous level of outside pressure and interest is absent from what we see. At the time S6 aired, there was speculation Elizabeth was lying to Claudia and the Centre to cover up Paige’s inadequacies, but that conflict never comes up. There’s no mention of the Centre being pleased or having opinions, no orders from them about what should be done next. All the pressure comes from Elizabeth herself.

Even the moment when Elizabeth tells Paige to apply for a State Dept internship played for me at the time as simply being post-Harvest Elizabeth wanting to get Paige off the street and into that cushy job she imagines for her. There’s no suggestion of it being the Centre’s order. The “failing slowly” idea explains this change in urgency.

It also explains one of the biggest plotholes in the series: Henry. Why is there no pressure to bring Henry in? Few people watch the show closely and don’t notice that Henry is better spy material—it’s not subtle. But even if Henry hadn’t gotten himself within sight of the halls of power by S6, he’d still be exactly as valuable as Paige at the same age. The real difference between Paige and Henry is those three years. In the years b/w 1983 and 1987—years that included Paige immediately blabbing—pressuring the Jennings to recruit their kids stopped being an order.

We know Jared was #1 and Paige was #2. We don’t actually know if Henry was #3. Jared’s sister was Paige’s age, after all. The Centre might have tried at least once more with some kid older than Henry with disappointing if not tragic results. Obviously, there’s nothing explicit that says this is what’s going on, but it actually fits really well and isn’t a stretch in logic.

[Domestic Assassin]

17 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

So why is this important? My theory is that this Rez story illuminates the diner conversation b/w Claudia and Gabriel. This is the real explanation for trying again after the Connors’ murders. The second-gen program was a priority with Jared, but even after it blew up in their face, nobody wanted to cancel a program with so much “potential,” because if they did that, it would hurt them politically/professionally.

I really like this idea, since it's always irked me that it seemed like the writers forgot at some point that recruiting Paige was an order from the center that they couldn't refuse.

[Umbelina]

On 1/12/2021 at 5:50 PM, sistermagpie said:

It fits everything we see later, especially stuff that didn’t fit before. On re-watch S3 you can’t help but notice the difference in how the 2nd gen story is handled here in S3 compared to S6. In S3 we’ve got Gabriel pulled out of retirement, fraught convos b/w him and the Jennings, pressure from the Centre to tell Paige, requests for weekly reports about what Paige is doing at church, etc.

BTW, great comments and theories as usual!

To this part though.  I think the show seriously dropped the ball here.  I remember at the time thinking that they brought Gabe back in case Philip, who was standing in the way of 2nd generation/Paige, and was already highly suspect by Center, needed to be eliminated.

It would have tied in so well with Gabe's eventual story about the Stalin terror and killing people randomly, and with his quitting the KGB finally retiring.  I would have loved to see Gabriel finally find his core, his soul, and be able to refuse to eliminate Philip, in spite of orders to do so.  

(Of course from there, in my world, the rest of the ending would be different as well, because I'd have Gabe continue on to warn Philip and tell him to get out while he still can.  Philip would defect, giving Elizabeth fair warning so she could join him or escape.  Philip's primary reason to defect would be to protect Paige from living the life he and Elizabeth live,  and to protect Henry as well.  etc.)

Edited January 28, 2021 by Umbelina
fixing a double negative

[sistermagpie]

On 1/28/2021 at 1:19 PM, Umbelina said:

To this part though.  I think the show seriously dropped the ball here.  I remember at the time thinking that they brought Gabe back in case Philip, who was standing in the way of 2nd generation/Paige, and was already highly suspect by Center, needed to be eliminated.

 

Claudia would happily volunteer for that job!

But seriously, that's why I liked the theory so much, that it explained the way that story petered out without being too far-fetched given how often we see the Centre acting exactly this way. And it fits Elizabeth.

For me, while I liked every hint that Gabriel was starting to really question the way he'd gone through his life because of all the stuff going on with Philip--that he was really just acting out of fear his whole life--the reason I'd be glad they didn't do a story like that instead is that it relies more on plot, especially for Philip. Gabriel would be making a decision to warn Philip and Elizabeth would be making a choice about what she was going to do, but Philip would be reacting to the Centre planning to kill him and just trying to stay alive. It kind of makes the decision for him since they're going to kill him off. I like it better that they did the opposite, putting him in a situation that's as close to defection as he ever gets and letting him choose to involve himself with Oleg or not. It removes the Centre as the decision maker for both of them in the end so they have to choose.

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Claudia would happily volunteer for that job!

But seriously, that's why I liked the theory so much, that it explained the way that story petered out without being too far-fetched given how often we see the Centre acting exactly this way. And it fits Elizabeth.

Philip didn't trust Claudia at all, and would just as soon be happy to kill her, and as he's younger and active, more likely to win.  He had a better relationship with Gabe.  PLUS it could give Claudia some deniability with Elizabeth.  (Right after Claudia kills Gabe and tells Liz that Gabe went rogue.)

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

For me, while I liked every hint that Gabriel was starting to really question the way he'd gone through his life because of all the stuff going on with Philip--that he was really just acting out of fear his whole life--the reason I'd be glad they didn't do a story like that instead is that it relies more on plot, especially for Philip. Gabriel would be making a decision to warn Philip and Elizabeth would be making a choice about what she was going to do, but Philip would be reacting to the Centre planning to kill him and just trying to stay alive. It kind of makes the decision for him since they're going to kill him off. I like it better that they did the opposite, putting him in a situation that's as close to defection as he ever gets and letting him choose to involve himself with Oleg or not. It removes the Centre as the decision maker for both of them in the end so they have to choose.

Or just the final kick in the ass Philip needed to pull his head out of his self destructive obsession with Elizabeth.

Nah, I seriously hate that Oleg story too.  Not only is HE imprisoned forever, but his wife/child/dad/mother will be subject to reprisals as well.  Because?  That's how it worked.  Step out of line?  Your family will suffer.  That goes for Arkady as well, another character I really liked, only he's still there, so they will just torture him enough to get all other names and then kill him too.

Oh, I forgot to mention your Stan thing.  Yes, Stan went against orders and was rogue on occasion but there is no way in hell he would commit treason, flat out treason, by letting them go, ESPECIALLY right after they killed FBI agents!  Hell yeah though writers, lets ruin Stan's life too!  

(insert whatever sound tearing out your hair makes here)

EVERYTHING about the ending makes me furious.  Yeah, let's not even mention Chernobyl and the soviets caught lying about it.  Let's quickly end the show before the USSR dies.  Let's not see the wall come down.

Nah, let's just put in a ton of sappy music and make a spy show all about touchy/feeling impossible total bullshit, skip the dialogue because if we add that, we may have to explain this completely ridiculous and hopeless ending.

 

Edited January 30, 2021 by Umbelina

[Roseanna]

On 12/23/2020 at 2:22 AM, sistermagpie said:

That made me think of what you said about Gabriel, too, and comparing him with Claudia. The show seemed to recognize Elizabeth/Claudia as one of its star dynamics, but sometimes to me that seemed more about Elizabeth's beat-down of Claudia being such a crowd pleaser and Claudia being Margo Martindale. Claudia remained exactly who she introduced herself as back in S1 and never changed--that was central to who she was. She was who Elizabeth might have become, saw Elizabeth as her spiritual successor etc. It felt like their last scene was supposed to be a big culmination of this great relationship when I was left not really buying it. It felt more about the scene they felt "Margo Martindale as Claudia" deserved than Claudia who'd just tricked Elizabeth into taking part in a coup and wearing a suicide pill.

Gabriel actually seemed like the one with the arc, starting out the perfect professional handler, a much more skilful manipulator than Claudia. But then he started to question who he really was and why--probably in part because Philip, unlike Elizabeth, asked these tough questions. And so when he went back to Russia he started being a different person, making amends to Philip's people. He didn't need to hook up Mischa with the family or get Martha a child, but it was something he could do. He was a different person than when he started. Claudia was still Claudia and always would be. The scenes about this tended to be quieter, but they were more complicated imo.

Good comparison!

It also tells more than just about Claudia and Gabriel. Some people can change, other fossilize.

It's remarkable that it was just Gabriel who had been an instrument of terror had retained a drop of humanity.

[Roseanna]

On 1/13/2021 at 3:50 AM, sistermagpie said:

THE REZIDENTURA

So, here’s my theory. In this ep, Arkady decides to cancel the mail robot Op (aka Operation Zephyr, aka Operation Marshmallow). Sure, the bug might pick up something, but the odds of that are too small to make it worth the time and money—Arkady is a good manager. But then Tatiana, the most political at the Rez, talks to Oleg and they convince Arkady to not do that. He’s a good boss and they’re protecting him.

Tatiana lays it out clearly why: if Arkady cancels a program with so much “potential,” he won’t get others to oversee. It’s better, she warns, for the operation to start to fail slowly than for Arkady to admit right now it’s a failure. Oleg agrees that this is something his Dad does at the Ministry.

“Failing slowly” is a dominant theme in S6, from the travel agency to Elizabeth’s assignments to trying to make Paige a credible spy. This might be a central appeal of the series—Philip and Elizabeth’s mission fails slowly, but the marriage slowly succeeds!

Tatiana and Oleg are not convincing Arkady that he’s wrong about the program. They’re convincing him to let it slowly start to fail rather than terminate it. What will that look like, exactly? At the start, it will look like enthusiastically working the bug: Tatiana finds a casual exchange to spin into signs of infidelity. The difference is that they’ve gone from expecting results to pretending to expect and, if necessary, manufacturing results. Over time, this useless bug will slip down the list of priorities, failing without anyone having to take the fall for it. The operation is still happening—it’s not like they’ve stopped it. They’re just expecting to be able to gradually lower their investment.

We’ll see the same thing in S5 when Philip and Elizabeth tell the Centre the wheat plot doesn’t exist and the Centre tells them, iirc, they have to keep sleeping with those two randos anyway. Iow, they don’t cancel the Op, but it’s probably petered out by S6. Tatiana’s telling us something here important about Soviet bureaucracy and how people survive in it.

So why is this important? My theory is that this Rez story illuminates the diner conversation b/w Claudia and Gabriel. This is the real explanation for trying again after the Connors’ murders. The second-gen program was a priority with Jared, but even after it blew up in their face, nobody wanted to cancel a program with so much “potential,” because if they did that, it would hurt them politically/professionally.

It fits everything we see later, especially stuff that didn’t fit before. On re-watch S3 you can’t help but notice the difference in how the 2nd gen story is handled here in S3 compared to S6. In S3 we’ve got Gabriel pulled out of retirement, fraught convos b/w him and the Jennings, pressure from the Centre to tell Paige, requests for weekly reports about what Paige is doing at church, etc.

Great!

The French spy serie Le Bureau des Legendes (The Bureau) happens in 2010ies, but in the fifth season FSB is very much the heir of KGB: the best way to get a good career isn't to be brilliant and proactive but mediocre and obedient (f.ex. not to doubt that the source that the boss has recruited has handed over unreliable information).

[Roseanna]

11 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Oh, I forgot to mention your Stan thing.  Yes, Stan went against orders and was rogue on occasion but there is no way in hell he would commit treason, flat out treason, by letting them go, ESPECIALLY right after they killed FBI agents!  

Already Dostoevky showed us that one can't predict how people behave - they are a mystery to other people and to themselves. In the trial Dimitry Karamazov is the obvious culprint for tyhe murder of his father: he had the motive and he was in the place. But we readers know that although he actually planned the murder, in the end didn't do it.

Also, in John le Carré's spy trilogy "The Quest for Karla", George Smiley tells how his arch enemy Karla rather risked a death sentence in Moscow than went over to the enemy, but in the end Smiley forces Karla to become a defector. 

 

[Umbelina]

10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Good comparison!

It also tells more than just about Claudia and Gabriel. Some people can change, other fossilize.

It's remarkable that it was just Gabriel who had been an instrument of terror had retained a drop of humanity.

Claudia's youth was spent fighting the battle of Stalingrad, so her being deeply patriotic and heartless at the same time also made sense for her character.  She didn't want to see the truth, or ever have doubt, just like Elizabeth.

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Already Dostoevky showed us that one can't predict how people behave - they are a mystery to other people and to themselves. In the trial Dimitry Karamazov is the obvious culprint for tyhe murder of his father: he had the motive and he was in the place. But we readers know that although he actually planned the murder, in the end didn't do it.

Also, in John le Carré's spy trilogy "The Quest for Karla", George Smiley tells how his arch enemy Karla rather risked a death sentence in Moscow than went over to the enemy, but in the end Smiley forces Karla to become a defector. 

 

Yes, but we are talking about Stan.  BASIC cop Stan, who just had fellow FBI cops murdered a week before.  Stan is pretty predictable, and no, it wouldn't happen.  However, lets just pretend that wasn't complete bullshit and Stan did it.  His next step would be being wracked with guilt and turning himself in.

He's every bit as patriotic as Claudia or Elizabeth.

[sistermagpie]

16 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Philip didn't trust Claudia at all, and would just as soon be happy to kill her, and as he's younger and active, more likely to win.  He had a better relationship with Gabe.  PLUS it could give Claudia some deniability with Elizabeth.  (Right after Claudia kills Gabe and tells Liz that Gabe went rogue.)

Why would either of them have to do it? If the Centre wanted Philip dead they wouldn't need it to be done by someone who he knew. Seems like there's a good reason for not ever using handlers to assassinate officers. Ultimately Philip was valuable to the Centre and they didn't need him or want him dead at all. Even when he's retired he's giving them valuable info.

16 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Or just the final kick in the ass Philip needed to pull his head out of his self destructive obsession with Elizabeth.

But that's why the final story says more about his character. Because he wasn't motivated by an obsession with Elizabeth. He was motivated by the same thing Oleg and Arkady were and willing to first spy on Elizabeth for it and then just declare where he stood. In the other scenario he's just a guy running into the arms of the US government because the KGB's after him for not being enough of a drone even while he's one of their most valuable workers.

16 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Nah, I seriously hate that Oleg story too.  Not only is HE imprisoned forever, but his wife/child/dad/mother will be subject to reprisals as well.  Because?  That's how it worked.  Step out of line?  Your family will suffer.  That goes for Arkady as well, another character I really liked, only he's still there, so they will just torture him enough to get all other names and then kill him too.

I didn't get the impression Oleg's family was in trouble. Oleg saved Gorbachev and the reformers would be on their side. The coup isn't in the position to have complete control over who stepped out of line and would be punished, just as Claudia said.

16 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Oh, I forgot to mention your Stan thing.  Yes, Stan went against orders and was rogue on occasion but there is no way in hell he would commit treason, flat out treason, by letting them go, ESPECIALLY right after they killed FBI agents!  Hell yeah though writers, lets ruin Stan's life too!  

I've started watching March 8, 1983 at this point and am really trying to figure out Stan more. I don't have a conclusion yet, but Gaad asks him if he even gives a damn about the bureau at all and even by the end of S3 it seems he totally does not. There's lines that he won't cross, like handing over Echo, but there's a lot he will do. He's got a lot of stories about him not being loyal to the FBI or FBI agents in that way. The other agents are really right not to trust him and see him as a possible traitor. It's kind of funny when he acts shocked when he's accused.

Watching the next ep so far, for instance, it seems like he and Elizabeth both have a weird relationship w/the bureau they work for where Elizabeth thinks okay, the Centre knows what's right and if it feels wrong it's weakness in me. Stan thinks if it feels right to him it's right/patriotic and if the bureau disagrees they're wrong. It's something I think will come up again in the next episode...but that's another post!

16 hours ago, Umbelina said:

(insert whatever sound tearing out your hair makes here)

EVERYTHING about the ending makes me furious.  Yeah, let's not even mention Chernobyl and the soviets caught lying about it.  Let's quickly end the show before the USSR dies.  Let's not see the wall come down.

Nah, let's just put in a ton of sappy music and make a spy show all about touchy/feeling impossible total bullshit, skip the dialogue because if we add that, we may have to explain this completely ridiculous and hopeless ending.

 

And it all started 8 years ago today, I just recently read! I admit I can't really answer for this because I have the exact opposite reaction to all these choices. 

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Good comparison!

It also tells more than just about Claudia and Gabriel. Some people can change, other fossilize.

It's remarkable that it was just Gabriel who had been an instrument of terror had retained a drop of humanity.

Yes, that fossilization seemed like a really big theme for them in S6. Claudia was probably willing to start WWIII just to keep living WWII. Gabriel went back to the USSR and seemed to find things to actually do there, like getting Martha a child and introducing Mischa to his family. Gabriel had his own EST-ish moments realizing what had been motivating him and considering trying to be different, maybe.

 

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Why would either of them have to do it? If the Centre wanted Philip dead they wouldn't need it to be done by someone who he knew. Seems like there's a good reason for not ever using handlers to assassinate officers. Ultimately Philip was valuable to the Centre and they didn't need him or want him dead at all. Even when he's retired he's giving them valuable info.

As I said, because they knew Philip was opposed to Paige or Henry becoming KGB.

That 2nd generation was their primary goal at that point.

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I didn't get the impression Oleg's family was in trouble. Oleg saved Gorbachev and the reformers would be on their side. The coup isn't in the position to have complete control over who stepped out of line and would be punished, just as Claudia said.

You have to go back and listen to the details about who was involved in getting Gorbachev out.  MOST of the KGB.  MOST of the most important generals, and several other highly placed political types.  Those that thwarted it, Oleg, Arkady, and most certainly Philip and Elizabeth will be dealt with.

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I've started watching March 8, 1983 at this point and am really trying to figure out Stan more. I don't have a conclusion yet, but Gaad asks him if he even gives a damn about the bureau at all and even by the end of S3 it seems he totally does not. There's lines that he won't cross, like handing over Echo, but there's a lot he will do. He's got a lot of stories about him not being loyal to the FBI or FBI agents in that way. The other agents are really right not to trust him and see him as a possible traitor. It's kind of funny when he acts shocked when he's accused.

Watching the next ep so far, for instance, it seems like he and Elizabeth both have a weird relationship w/the bureau they work for where Elizabeth thinks okay, the Centre knows what's right and if it feels wrong it's weakness in me. Stan thinks if it feels right to him it's right/patriotic and if the bureau disagrees they're wrong. It's something I think will come up again in the next episode...but that's another post!

Stan's whole goal was getting the embedded agents, for years now, even when others let it slide, that was his primary focus.  He KNOWS the murders (or at least a few dozen of them) they've committed.  

It's utter bullshit that he would betray his oaths for Philip, and even more bullshit that he would continue to lie (and not be caught by a lie detector test.)  

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, that fossilization seemed like a really big theme for them in S6. Claudia was probably willing to start WWIII just to keep living WWII. Gabriel went back to the USSR and seemed to find things to actually do there, like getting Martha a child and introducing Mischa to his family. Gabriel had his own EST-ish moments realizing what had been motivating him and considering trying to be different, maybe.

Claudia wanted to keep the USSR going, every single thing she's given her life to.  Also, she was RIGHT.  It collapses completely in 2-3 years.  Either way, she'll get her revenge, and she has a bunch of very highly placed people who will want that as well.

[Roseanna]

14 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, but we are talking about Stan.  BASIC cop Stan, who just had fellow FBI cops murdered a week before.  Stan is pretty predictable, and no, it wouldn't happen.  However, lets just pretend that wasn't complete bullshit and Stan did it.  His next step would be being wracked with guilt and turning himself in.

He's every bit as patriotic as Claudia or Elizabeth.

 

14 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I've started watching March 8, 1983 at this point and am really trying to figure out Stan more. I don't have a conclusion yet, but Gaad asks him if he even gives a damn about the bureau at all and even by the end of S3 it seems he totally does not. There's lines that he won't cross, like handing over Echo, but there's a lot he will do. He's got a lot of stories about him not being loyal to the FBI or FBI agents in that way. The other agents are really right not to trust him and see him as a possible traitor. It's kind of funny when he acts shocked when he's accused.

 

11 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Stan's whole goal was getting the embedded agents, for years now, even when others let it slide, that was his primary focus.  He KNOWS the murders (or at least a few dozen of them) they've committed. 

I am sorry, Umbelina, but I must gree with Sistermagpie.

Basically your claim seems to be that "a cop wouldn't do it". But what about such cops as in Seven seconds who conceal their colleague's crime?

We all are inclined to think f.ex. that "our soldiers won't do what other countries' soldiers do" and are shocked when we are proven otherwise. 

It's clearly shown that Stan lacks the essential qualities for a spy catcher his partner Dennis Adelholt has: keeping professional distance and concentrating on the big picture. Looking back, Stan's anger during the Thanksgiving dinner isn't a proof that he is committed to catch the murderer of the defectors but that is too emotional for his job.  

In addition, the crux of the matter is the situation: when Stan decides to go alone, he doesn't act like a professional should but puts his own wounded feelings of betrayal before all else, and after Philip has masterfully appealed to their friendship, Stan just can't shoot P&E to prevent their escape - especially as he should do it before the eyes of their daughter.

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

Basically your claim seems to be that "a cop wouldn't do it".

Not really.  My opinion is that STAN wouldn't do it, however, even if he did?  The guilt would consume him, sooner rather than later.  Also, the FBI (and this would go beyond just the FBI) are not the idiots portrayed by this show.  He would be caught.  He would KNOW he would be caught, and he would turn himself in first.

However, let's just say that the entire United States law enforcement community are complete idiots, and Stan is not caught, not even suspected, after LIVING ACROSS THE STREET FROM THEM FOR YEARS.  No one even questions him, after knowing they were best friends, attended EST together, had BBQ's, and Stan recommended their business for FBI trip arranging.  Let's just pretend that for a while.

The GUILT would consume Stan, he's not built for living a lie designed to work against and deceive his country.  His undercover work FOR his country destroyed his marriage and nearly destroyed him as well.  Now though?  He is supposed to live with the knowledge that he lied, and will continue to lie, for Soviet Spies, and to cover his ass, mislead the investigators?  

It's a bullet in his own brain or confession for Stan.  He's just as much a patriot to his country as Elizabeth is to hers.  His life, like all the others?  Is over.  The minute he let them go?  Done.