Athena May 13, 2019 Share May 13, 2019 This Forum is for Unsullied Members to post in: those who have vowed to not only not read the books, but also to not watch previews, read information on the Viewer's Guide, or seek any information outside of what has been IN THE EPISODES ONLY. For the purposes of The Habitat there are 4 categories of visitor: Unsullied = Only watch the show from HBO static to closing credits. Nothing else, nada, zilch, zip. = Welcome to post in here. Unspoiled = Haven't read the books. Watch the show plus ‘next time on’ previews and/or interviews/reviews and/or own GoT DVD boxsets and/or access HBO GoT content. = Please post in the main GoT forum, where the No Book Talk thread caters to you. Partially-spoiled Bookwalker = Have read some of the books but none beyond where the show has broadcast. = Please post in the main GoT forum, where the No Book Talk thread caters to you. Fully-spoiled Bookwalker = Have read either all of the books or past where the show has broadcast. = Please post in the main GoT forum, where the Book Talk thread caters to you. Unless you fall into the Unsullied category above you should be in READ-ONLY mode in this thread (and sub-forum). That also means NO LIKING OR REACTING TO POSTS. Thank you for your cooperation. Episode Synopsis: TBA Link to comment
Anothermi May 20, 2019 Share May 20, 2019 (edited) Well, well, well. Not the conflagration I was banking on (I wasn't really banking on one, but it's a fun way to open a post). But a feel good ending. I'm guessing they decided to break the wheel of how a show is run and let everyone who worked on the show have a say in how to end it. I say this because a number of spitballs I flung just this past week were incorporated (kinda, sorta, maybe) and I am no screenwriter. 1 – Jon and Tyrion made a date to piss off the Wall. OK, just Tyrion agreed to piss off the wall, but Jon would be there with him for old times sake, right? And Tyrion mentioned what people's attitudes might be in ten years time. I'll take that as a nod to that part of my pissing-off-the-wall speculation. 2 – Brienne DID find the nobleness in Jaime going back to try to save Cersei. And I very much liked that she put the heretofor unsung good deeds he's done in the grand tome that is the history of the King's Guard. 3 – Jon and Ghost answered my question re: is there any scene where Jon shows affection to his direwolf. I stand corrected. 4 – Jon seems to be taking my advice to open the borders between the south and north of the Wall. (kinda) But he didn't make a brief stop to pay his respects over the pyre he burned Ygritte's body on. (shame) But on the up side, I liked the sly reference to the children of the forest in the ending visuals beyond the wall. Only now they are the children IN the forest. 5 – Podrick seems to have been made a King's Guard? He's been knighted at least. Sir Podrick Payne. Other random things I noted: Jon is now able to kill someone out of love, but still not able to leave the Nights Watch. (Yay for the shout out to Aemon Targaryn and his wisdom. See? They're not all crazy!) Edmure Tully is alive and just as delusional as he started. (Note to self – don't expect people who languish in dungeons to learn anything. I'm talking to you, Ned.) Robin Arryn seems to have learned something. And he certainly looks better. Less like a... I don't know what, but it's a good thing he doesn't look like that anymore. I couldn't remember some of the other still-living Westerosi lords present at that council (so suddenly). Just the new Prince of Dorne because of his outfit. I recognized a couple of faces but can't put a "House Name" to them. Grey Worm (even Davos couldn't remember his new name) seems to be cooling down and Gingerella got her wish that he would go to Naarth. Also looks like the Dothraki were bound back to Essos on the ships. Not that a point was made of it because who gives a shit about them anymore. Right? (I'll get over it. I'm sure I will) Arya plans to follow the goal she expressed (to Lady Crane, the Actress in Braavos she couldn't kill) of traveling west of Westeros. I speculate that she will discover an uncharted land across that sea and later it will become a new country and call itself the Arya-n Nation. (groan) And leaving the best for the last. King Bran-the-Broken plans to rule in the style of Robert Barratheon. No, not seducing prostitutes and leaving the day to day business to the council, but seducing Drogon! And leaving the day to day business to the council. Some things never change. A series final is a difficult thing to pull off successfully. So I can live with opting for flippant humour and Fan service and not making much sense. Yes I Can. (It could have been really bad). Edited May 20, 2019 by Anothermi 5 Link to comment
gingerella May 20, 2019 Share May 20, 2019 (edited) And Now Our Watch Has Ended... Well, it was at least a relief that all our beloved characters lived. When the Unsullied and Grey Worm left on that ship to Naath, I wondered why Bran couldn’t just tell Jon he could go back to the North instead of going back to the Nights Watch, because the Unsullied weren’t going to be around anyway. Sort of weird, that decision. And I was relieved that other than Dany’s demise, there wasn’t a lot more death because I don’t think I could handle anymore after last week. I guess overall I am okay with this ending, but it doesn’t change how things are very much does it? On the one hand, pun intended, the Iron Throne is no more, but they’re still having same set up in KL, only difference is Bran isn’t an asshole like Robert, Joffrey, or Cersei. I liked when Sam offered up that the People should choose their King/Queen, but in the end didn’t they decide that the Lords and Ladies of the now 6 Kingdoms will choose. Now that I type that out, I suppose it’s a *step* towards democracy, going from hereditary title to a committee of elite choosing, and perhaps at some point Sam’s idea would be more acceptable. AND, the North is now it’s own Kingdom wit Her Queen Sansa, good on her! I loved the idea that Arya is an adventure to see what’s west of Westeros, it seems she has her own ship now giving the Stark sigil on the sail. I was glad to see Brienne taking on a lead role as Jaime’s successor as the head of the Kings Guard, and huzzah for Ser Podrick! That Council scene was rather amusing, and it felt like characters were starting to get back to the busines of Living, rather than defending themselves against death all the time. And of course the irony that Tyrion became the Hand yet again, as his punishment...But I gotta say, I did NOT see Bran th Broken as King coming, not at all. Mercifully we were spared his eyes turning blue as I had feared, but he can still warg Drogon so magic is still alive and well. The saddest I felt during this final episode, was when Jon was told he would have to go back to The Wall. I could feel his “Are you fucking kidding me?!? I Was King of the North and almost King of the 7 Kingdoms and you’re sending me back to the Nights Watch?! Bloody fucking hell!” Man, I felt for him, but when he rode through the gates of Castle Black and saw Tormund? I felt like it was going to be okay. The reunion with Ghostie boy was the only time tonight that I teared up. That was everything! That final scene - and I’m so glad that the final scene was in the North - I appreciated the mirroring of the opening scene in S01E01, because that was the scene that hooked me and I knew I was into A Show for the long haul. So ending there at The Wall was perfect, at least for me. It felt like Jon and Tormund were leading the Free Folk back into the Forest...As @Anothermi said, it was like leading the New Children of the Forest, children who just wanted to live free, and in the end, Jon went with them sort of as their King, yet not because they don’t have Kings, they have guys like Tormund, who play a similar role, so really, if Jon is venturing forth North with the Free Folk, his future is as ‘free’ as Arya’s is. If that makes sense. This is just first impressions gibberish...I need to ruminate... ETA: So I was wrong about WWs still remaining, happy I was wrong but t would have made a good ending I think. We were sort of right and sort of wrong about Dany’s visions Qaarth re: Dany and the Throne Room...yes she saw it with snow falling down around a blown up hall, that came true. And she died in the same hall, so in a way, maybe she went to Drogo and her baby in the end? ETA2: Things I do not understand: 1. If Jon was the true heir to the throne, why is he banished? Kings killed other kings to stake their claim to sit on the throne all the time so why is this any different? That really doesn’t make much sense to me. 2. Why was Dany alone in the throne room? That also makes Zero sense. 3. Why was Tyrion left out of the story? Wtf? Edited May 20, 2019 by gingerella 5 Link to comment
DirewolfPup May 20, 2019 Share May 20, 2019 9 hours ago, gingerella said: We were sort of right and sort of wrong about Dany’s visions Qaarth re: Dany and the Throne Room...yes she saw it with snow falling down around a blown up hall, that came true. And she died in the same hall, so in a way, maybe she went to Drogo and her baby in the end? I love this and hope its true. Drogon would probably take her back to Valeria if I were to guess. Poor Drogon. Last of his family. Wonder if Jon and Drogon will ever connect again. I do wonder why Drogon didn't rip him to pieces. Another speculation for another day. Overall, this ending was okay. Some good, some bad. The good: 1) Jon didn't fail up to being King! While re-joining the Night's Watch seemed so backwards when they said it, it made sense by the end. Tormund told him that he belonged north. He has the respect of northerners and wildings. I believe he can find love again and start a simpler life, which is what he always ultimately wanted. Ghost is happy to have him back. 2) Sam as Maester in King's Landing. This fits his character arc nicely. I wish we could have seen the new baby, but that's a quibble. 3) Sansa gets to rule the independent north. She looked grand as the new queen. I do hope they consider a name change. The North is a little on the nose as a country name. 4) Arya the adventurer. May she discover what's west of Westeros. 5) The callback to Tyrion asking Bran what is story was earlier in the season. It was a throwaway scene that makes much more sense now. 6) Having Tyrion be Hand to Bran-the-Broken seemed to be the only mildly satisfying conclusion for him. His council will be a handful. 7) Brienne finishing Jamie's legacy in the book. The bad: 1) Bran as king. I like the idea of a more neutral king/queen, but Bran is almost too neutral. As the three-eyed raven, he sees the world and lets it happen around him. Would he ever interject when people are going in the wrong direction? This decision wasn't terrible by any means, but it didn't feel good in my gut. 2) Bronn as Master of Coin? He would be more fitting as Master of War. 3) The disservice A Show did to the Dany plotline. I was never a fan of her ending up on the throne, but the story was not told in a satisfying way. Jon told Tyrion in this very episode that (major paraphrasing alert) "being born with a last name doesn't turn you evil otherwise I'd be evil." It's like the show was unintentionally mocking us. I will have a difficult time with this turn of events for years. 4) The immediate aftermath of Dany's victory didn't sit well with me. She has her WWII speech in front of the cheering Dothraki and stomping Unsullied. They are all about her plans to save the 7 kingdoms. Then Tyrion publicly shames her and throws down his hand pin. She arrests him. How much time passed before Jon went to visit him? 10 minutes? 5 days? Timelines have always been an issue, but it changes the context of her murder and Jon's choice to murder her. If it was 10 minutes, her oogling the throne would make sense, but her hoards wouldn't have jailed Jon, they would have killed him on site. Then the Dothraki and Unsullied peace out back east. 5) Easteros is going to be back under slavers control and everything reverts back to normal. Nothing in these worlds has massively changed aside for a smattering of females allowed to make decisions (Brienne and Sansa mainly). Magic is gone except for one dragon wandering about on his own. Its a very hallow end. 5 Link to comment
Pallas May 20, 2019 Share May 20, 2019 (edited) Some thoughts, 12 hours later. 1) Attorney General Grey Worm. Rather than execute mutineer Jon Snow, Grey Worm imprisons the killer of The One True Queen: Grey Worm's liberator, leader and mother figure, beloved by his own late beloved. He has the presence of mind to see that in this incinerated city -- now without its incinerator -- his armies are vulnerable to a siege led by the armies of, well, everyone else. Jon is bound over as a hostage in negotiations with the forces that include his three other family members. Meanwhile -- more inexplicably --- Grey Worm keeps the Imp on ice so that Tyrion may be judged by...Dany's successor as ruler of the Seven Kingdoms? Who has yet to be decided, but will be, in a vote that excludes Grey Worm? A vote called, debated and ratified in whole by the prisoner himself? 2) The Night's Watch: was this more cleverness by Tyrion, banishing Jon to what Tyrion knew was, in fact, a reunion with Tormund, Ghost and the Free Folk? (An exile enforced by Sansa on the throne of the North -- the only kingdom which now borders the Wall?) 3) Drogon survived to grieve, melt the Iron Throne, and forsake Westeros for a home in the East. My theory: when he touched Dany's body, a trace of her spirit merged with his. He destroyed the throne because it, more than Jon, had been the ruin of her. Yet also to assure that no one else -- neither Targaryen nor usurper -- would sit on it in her stead. Agree with Direwolf Pup that Drogon returned with Dany to their homeland of Valyria, where among the half-living stone creatures, Drogon rules in all but name. 10 hours ago, gingerella said: If Jon was the true heir to the throne, why is he banished? Jon was the true heir to nothing, from the moment Aerys and Targaryen rule were overthrown in Robert's Rebellion. But anyways. Jon had already yielded to Daenerys both his title as King in the North and his pretender's claims to the Seven Kingdoms; he likely surrendered to Grey Worm as Jon Snow. His being banished was the terms of his release; those terms ended the siege and resulted in the Unsullieds' departing Westeros. 10 hours ago, gingerella said: Why was Dany alone in the throne room? That also makes Zero sense. Indeed, even with Drogon drowsily on guard. But let's say that Dany chose to be alone for this first encounter. (Good timing, Jon!) What if Jon had chosen to approach her unarmed: to protect her from his doubts, as well as lull her own? Then in extremis, done an Arthur and pulled a sword out of the throne? Or was this the time to continue dialing back on the supernatural and on the theme of Jon, the predestined hero? 10 hours ago, gingerella said: Why was Tyrion left out of the story? Wtf? No one likes a wise guy. Especially showrunners making a lame joke. Edited May 20, 2019 by Pallas After reading Direwolf Pup's preceding post 7 Link to comment
janjan May 20, 2019 Share May 20, 2019 I'm confused. Before it devolved into extended fan service (which is fair enough for a finale), A Show seemed to be about moral musing. But why are they re-litigating WWII? Are they trying to show that some characters are morally obtuse (I'm looking at you, Jon Snow), or do they really think the morality of war crimes is debatable? Why did Tyrion have to argue at length that fire-bombing a city is a Bad Thing? Yes, there is still debate about the fire-bombing of Dresden and the nuking of Nagasaki, but KL had surrendered!! Who is Tyrion trying to convince, Jon or A Viewer? And Jon is still . not . convinced until Dany tells him that she's gonna keep doing it. Dear Show: Are you really inviting us to feel for our hero and his "agonizing" decision? Really? And then he gets arrested (not immediately dispatched, as the Greyworm we've come to know would surely do). But hey, fan service. And the hastily assembled Lords of the Dragon Pit (complete with *two* plastic water bottles!) leave him in the dungeon while they bargain with Greyworm! If Colonel von Stauffenberg had survived his attempt on Hitler's life, would the victorious Allies have negotiated with Goering on whether to let him go? Really? And would they have accepted Greyworm's Adolph Eichmann defense ("I was just following orders")? Yeah, maybe it was because there was still an impossibly large number of Unsullied still stomping, but they sure let him off easy for murdering Lannister POWs. Could it be that A Show is inviting us to sympathize with poor bereaved Greyworm and rejoice that he gets to sail off in an impossibly large number of ships that suddenly appear? Really? Dear Show: Either you're dicking with us or you're a moral cretin. Read up on the Nuremberg Trails, why doncha. But thanks for the fan service. Really. Aegon Targaryan, apprentice Wildling. And Arya off to discover America. And GHOST!!! 5 Link to comment
Pallas May 20, 2019 Share May 20, 2019 4) The North gets a Nexit... 1 hour ago, DirewolfPup said: Wonder if Jon and Drogon will ever connect again. I wondered if a shipboard, north-bound Jon would look up and see Drogon, who would then -- accompanied by Dragon Bass -- fly into the camera one last time, before banking east. Not as the final shot of the series, but of the Targaryens. 1 hour ago, DirewolfPup said: While re-joining the Night's Watch seemed so backwards when they said it, it made sense by the end. Yes, Jon's return north was prepared a lot better than Dany's timewarp into Crazytown. Last season and this, Jon often stood up for himself as a Northerner. And then the thudding "This is good-bye then" to doubting Tormund, and...the thing...with Ghost. 1 hour ago, DirewolfPup said: The callback to Tyrion asking Bran what his story was earlier in the season. It was a throwaway scene that makes much more sense now. Brilliant. And now, one more thing to love about "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms." 1 hour ago, DirewolfPup said: His council will be a handful. Hee! No kidding. Penance! Penance! Penance! 1 hour ago, DirewolfPup said: Brienne finishing Jamie's legacy in the book. That was a lovely harkening, and I believed it. The simple "He died protecting his Queen" as the last word on the erstwhile Kingslayer. 1 hour ago, DirewolfPup said: Bran as king. I like the idea of a more neutral king/queen, but Bran is almost too neutral I see this as, maybe, championing the neuro-atypical as not only specialists but leaders. Or, more likely, a suggestion of another world's King Dalai Llama. That might have been intriguing. But Bran's inner life was another blank slate. Like Dany's: long ago we asked, again and again, Who is she? What does she do when not holding court? What else does she care about? What does she read? What makes her laugh? Does she appreciate any of the arts or sport? Does she have any spiritual leanings? What's in her heart? In how many minutes of screen time?, we learned more of Maester Aemon as a soul in this world, than we ever did of Dany or of Bran. 6 Link to comment
gingerella May 20, 2019 Share May 20, 2019 12 hours later...snow is still quietly falling inside my head... I awoke feeling that they only thing I'm truly happy about with this finale is that the characters I wanted to survive have indeed made it to the end of A Show alive. But the more I think about it, the more annoyed and bummed out I become about what I saw last night. Firstly, @janjan, wrt your comments about Tyrion trying to convince Jon that Dany was evil and had to be taken out, I took that entire exchange more as just desserts for Tyrion, whom our beloved Varys had basically the same exact convo with, and Tyrion turned him in for treason to Dany. Just desserts indeed Tyrion! And while I too wanted Jon to agree with Tyrion, I did not think for a moment that Jon actually still believed in Dany, I think he was terrified in that moment to speak against her because he didn't yet know what he was going to do about the situation. But in the end he did as Tyrion bid him to do, albeit far too easily since why were there zero guards with Dany in the broken throne room? I mean come on...Grey Worm's the one who should be executed for dereliction of duty if you ask me...Also, it was so bizarre that Drogon didn't incinerate Jon right there and then. Yes he destroyed the thing that his mother was so obsessed with, but was it Jon's Targ blood that prevented him from killing Jon too? I mean these are questions A Viewer is bound to have whether they are Unsullied, Spoilered, or a Bookwalker. WTF/Are You Fucking Kidding Me?!? moments: Seriously writers, you couldn't manage to rub two nickels together and give us some fucking resolution about the LoL after 8 seasons? We all know there are other followers out there, so what are their missions now? That was another . Also, how the hell did the Red Keep get cleaned up and rebuilt so quickly after Dany & Drogon destroyed it to rubble? That was ridiculous! Who is left in KL to clean up all the bodies and rubble, let alone rebuild something like that with the basic bitch medieval technology they have in Westeros? Seriously? Calling Continuity, please come in...It was snowing in KL when Dany made her World War/Hunger Games declaration speech on the steps of what was left of the Red Keep. Then they cut to the Dragon Pit for the Westerosi Idol Selection Committee and it's all sand and warm, like, where's the fucking snow? We all know Winter Has Come and suddenly it's looking like Club Med in the Caribbean. WTF? Other Stuff that has me shaking my head: I didn't think it was amusing to omit Tyrion from the Story...I mean he played a huge integral role in this story so unless they were fucking with him, which it didn't seem to like, that made zero sense. You know what also made zero sense? That some maester whose name we've never heard of, wrote down The Story of Ice and Fire and that it wasn't Samwell Tarley who wrote it down because the dude was actually there. Again I say, WTF? Bran the Builder, wasn't he one of the first Starks? So he was a builder, was it the Wall or something else? Didn't Old Nan tell Bran that he was named after this ancestor? If so, we have Bran the Builder and Bran the Broken...that seems like a shit name for a king if you ask me. How's about Bran the Seer, that seems more king-like. I was really assuming that Tyrion was going to nominate Jon for King because of his Story, which is as good as Bran's, I mean the dude was sent to the Night's Watch, he survived several encounters with WWs and the NK, the dude was killed and brought back from the dead with LoL magic, and he was present at the great battle between the Living and the Dead and the Last War. That's a helluva story too, am I right? Anyway, I know some of us think he would have failed up if that had happened but I'm not so sure Bran was a great choice...I dunno, I'm torn on that one. It came out of nowhere to me. Bran for King. Ummm, okaaaay? Oh, also...suddenly Robin the Idiot, he of lesser mental faculty, is now able to speak like a normal person and be on a council to select leaders? A leopard cannot change his spots, nor can a mentally incompetent inbred change himself. WTF? Character Awards of those who survived: Sansa To me Sansa was the only character that never deviated from her true North, pun intended, thankyouverymuch, please tip your waitress on the way out. She grew from a wide eyed, fairytale endings girly girl into a Queen of the North, something I'd bet neither of her parents would have thought possible, and it was because of the horrible things she endured and saw from her father being killed onward. She grew and changed and to me, her metamorphosis was believable. The fact that she had the nerve to tell her uncle to take two seats when he was blathering on, and that she told Bran the North would have to be an independent country was Baller, and she wasn't afraid to say it either. Go girl, you win for Best and Most Awesome Character Development. Arya Arya also stayed mostly true to her character's development and growth. When she heeded The Hound's warning to leave or die with him in the Red Keep, and she left, I didn't see that as a sign of weakness, I saw it as a recognition that not every battle needed to be fought and won. Some battles, like Cersei's end, could be handled by others, or by fate, and it was okay to walk away and protect your own life. I saw that as growth for Arya, not a weakness. And after all she'd seen and been through, particularly with The Long Night battle, she would have been within her right to go and live a nice comfy life with Gendry, but she opted to adventure forth in the world and see what's there where the maps left off. Good on her too! For that and the fact that I don't think any other character traveled the world as wide and far as she did, she wins Most Intrepid Character Development. Jon Jon's been nothing of not true to who he always was and is. He wants to live by the Starkian principles of honor and integrity and that mankind should play an active role in it's own development. I think he is a good, if not great leader, but not for Westeros and not right now. He ended up where he ought to end up, leading the Free Folk back into the Forest, a new era of Children of the Forest, where he can be as free as it's possible to be in this era of A Show. I think he's learned a lot about what being honest gets you in life, but he's stayed the course in his own way anyway, in spite of getting bitten in the ass multiple times. I felt disillusioned when I thought he was destined to remain at The Wall for life, or at least the next 10 years (and again, if the Dothraki and Unsullied were sailing back to whence they came, and onward to Naarth, then why did Jon really have to carry out his exile?!? It makes no sense.) because I felt like the guy deserves a break already. But in the end, when he saw Tormund and then Ghost, I knew he would be alright, and leading the Free Folk back to where they feel, well, free, felt like a reasonable ending to me. He gets the Most True and Unwavering to His Character award. Bran Bran has always been an enigma. I mean, he has never exuded much personality, and he was so little when he first started on A Show, that we never really got to know his personality. Once the TER thing kicked in, he because this weird little crippled kid, with weird and mostly depressed moods, and his character development always felt, well, weird! He went from quiet but annoying little kid to moody TER trainee to TER apprentice to TER full time and although that character arc seems realistic for what he was becoming, I can't say I know Bran Stark at all. The speaking in one liners didn't help A Viewer get to know him very well. I give Bran the Most Mysterious Character award. Tyrion Tyrion has, hands down (sorry but again, it was too easy not to) had the most profound character growth in A Show. When first we met him he was an angry, drunken whorer, who displayed no ambition, no growth in character, no care towards anyone, and just a waste of space in so many ways. We started seeing growth and potential in him when he fell in love with Shay, and we saw that he could indeed care for someone deeply. Then we saw him protect Sansa as best he could and again, we saw he could care for someone and protect them as best he could against imaginable horrors (ie: Joffrey). We saw him kill his father, when he should have been escaping already, and he was able to remove evil people from his life. We saw him try to make true family connections with Cersei despite her always pushing him away and serving him hateful comments. He grew into the Hand of Dany, he played integral roles in trying avert her 'destroy everyone in her path' mentality as far back as Mereen. He was someone I loathed the first season or two, then I grew to love his character because he showed constant growth. He wins the Most Character Growth arc award. Brienne She was another character who stayed true to herself from the get go. She never let her integrity or honor be sold to the highest bidder. She was a bad ass fighter and she also showed her vulnerability with Jaime. She saw the good in people, as evidenced by her finishing his chapter in the History of the Kings Guard. She showed people what they could be, and helped them to be that person. She wins the Most Honorable Character award. Davos I am so glad Davos survived until the end of A Show! He always gave us a good smirk, he walked the line with bawdy humor, was a great foil for Tyrion's wit, but he won our hearts from the first moment we saw him learning to read with Princess Shireen, first of her name, may she rest in peace finally. He was a smuggler yes, but he grew to be so much more with his steady mind and disposition, and his mad nautical skills. He wins the Most Dependable Character award. Ghost What can we say about the last remaining dire wolf in A Show (yes I know Nymeria is still alive but she's not really in A Show anymore)? Our Ghostie Boy can live free with Jon and the Free Folk now, so he gets the Most Reliable Pet award, along with a 'who's a good boy' pat on the head and a treat! Robin Simply wins Biggest Mental Moron/Luckiest Idiot award for surviving and not being thrown through the Moon Door by the Keepers of the Vale. I could go on, but I'm tired... 5 Link to comment
Anothermi May 20, 2019 Share May 20, 2019 (edited) 22 hours ago, gingerella said: how the hell did the Red Keep get cleaned up and rebuilt so quickly after Dany & Drogon destroyed it to rubble? Hee! I, too, wondered how the Council meeting room survived so very, very intact. From Season One we learned that it must not be a big detour from the Throne Room (reduced to rubble by this episode) and the council chambers. Ned walked through it to report to Robert (in the council room) when he arrived in King's Landing and Paycelle spoke with Ned there to pass on the ravengram (that everyone else had read) about Bran being awake (IIRC) and Varys and Littlefinger had the "chaos is a ladder" conversation in the Throne Room while either coming from or going to the Council Chamber. WHO SACKED the continuity person before the show was over???? 22 hours ago, gingerella said: I didn't think it was amusing to omit Tyrion from the Story.. I can't remember, but I think Tyrion may have made a comment about his participation never being acknowledged. And we knew that, had it not been for Brienne, everything Jaime did after slaying the Mad King would be missing from the King's Guard book. I'm hoping that WhiteStumbler might remember something of this. (I'm also pretty sure that it was an in joke.) 22 hours ago, gingerella said: Bran the Builder and Bran the Broken...that seems like a shit name for a king if you ask me. I checked the Character Guide and found Maegor Targaryen aka Maegor the Cruel. Built the Red Keep in King's Landing. HE wasn't called Maegor the Builder... but Bran the Cruel wouldn't work either. Bran the Builder sounds like a children's show spin-off to me. Oh, and another Targ King was called Aerion Brightflame because he drank wildfire thinking it would make him a dragon. (it did what it does instead) Seems that Kings are remembered more by their silly names than their real ones. I just want to add that I think Queen Elizabeth (1st of her name) seems to be the model Queen Sansa was based on. Not her whole story, perhaps, but that grandiose coronation brought QE One to my mind. Just saying. Edited May 21, 2019 by Anothermi 5 Link to comment
DirewolfPup May 20, 2019 Share May 20, 2019 Oh my goodness, the continuity! Thank you @gingerella and @Anothermi for venting some of my frustrations as well. The winter throne room to summer dragon pit chats makes no sense. Winter can last years. I highly doubt it's been years since the death of Dany. A few months maybe. 2 Link to comment
Pallas May 20, 2019 Share May 20, 2019 Spring has sprung in Westeros, it seems. I'm guessing this unseasonable season is the start of a new cycle -- an every-few-millennia result of gingerella's Rubik's cube pieces aligning -- or even a benediction from any or all gods. 1 2 Link to comment
janjan May 20, 2019 Share May 20, 2019 36 minutes ago, DirewolfPup said: The winter throne room to summer dragon pit chats makes no sense. I wasn't sure whether the stuff falling in the throne room was snow or ash. Same with what Drogon was buried under when he was sleeping. It's odd that ash would still be falling even a few days after the fire-bombing. And yet snow is hard to believe. The dragon pit council was sunny and bright. As was Drogon when he woke up. A reptile, exothermic as they are, would have been immobilized by being buried in snow. So it must have been ash. Except that's hard to believe, too. Maybe it's best not to worry about it. 😕 I'm in mourning. As much as I've been bitching about S8, A Show has been a beloved companion for almost 10 years (as are you all, my brethren and sistren). Hard to let go. <sniff> 3 Link to comment
gingerella May 21, 2019 Share May 21, 2019 (edited) Guys, I think Mother Nature tried to Spoiler me this week...This is a true story: Last week, on Friday, I was thinking about A Show and how it was all going to end, what storylines would be tied up, what would be left messy, what would be left unsaid, and what would be missing. I was writing a post on here at the time, and I heard some light thumping or bumping around on the roof over where I was sitting. Sometimes birds hang out up there but this sounded heavier. I went to the front door and heard it again, so I opened the door and stood on the front stoop and looked up to the roof rim to see if I could see anything when suddently WHOOOOOOOOSHHHHHHHHHH! I huge, and I do mean HUGE crow flew down off the roof, swooping right past my face! It scared the shit out of me, I tell ya! I immediately thought of ravens and A Show and got chills, then I laughed at myself in being so silly. Then on Sunday morning I was sitting in the same place with the window open, typing some posts here about A Show, when suddenly I saw a big shadow swoop past my window and a few moments later another huge crow let out some very LOUD CAWCAWwwwwwwwwwww. I told Mr. Gingerella, "I think someone is trying to tell me something about the finale tonight!" But I didn't think of it beyond that. Now, in thinking back, were the Cosmos trying to tell me that Bran will win the Game of (wheelchair)Thrones? Pretty weird, yes? Not that I would have ever made that connection because who among us saw Bran the Broken coming as the new King of the Six Kingdoms? Not I, said A Viewer... Edited May 21, 2019 by gingerella 2 3 Link to comment
janjan May 21, 2019 Share May 21, 2019 1 hour ago, gingerella said: who among us saw Bran the Broken coming as the new King of the Six Kingdoms? Not I, said A Viewer... Not I neither. I really thought Jon would be dragged kicking and screaming and forced to be King. After he killed Dany, of course. I foresaw that part even without resident ravens like Ginge has. Ginge, did you check their legs for message capsules? But after the first shock of disbelief that Greyworm let him live and that the council of lords (which included Arya and Brienne for some reason) consigned him to the Night's Watch when there's no more threat from the North and no more Nights Watch either -- after I recovered from all that, I did really like the full circle back to the opening scene of the whole Show. Riders riding into the snow, but happily this time. And with GHOST!!! But I'm sad for Drogon, last of his kind. <sniff> 5 Link to comment
gingerella May 21, 2019 Share May 21, 2019 41 minutes ago, janjan said: Not I neither. I really thought Jon would be dragged kicking and screaming and forced to be King. After he killed Dany, of course. I foresaw that part even without resident ravens like Ginge has. Ginge, did you check their legs for message capsules? But I'm sad for Drogon, last of his kind. <sniff> No, I was too freaked out to look for message capsules... Alas, we are also the last of our kind... 3 Link to comment
Llywela May 21, 2019 Share May 21, 2019 (edited) Guys, I had to stick my fingers in my ears not once but twice in work yesterday. The first was a false alarm, as the guy who wandered into my office talking about A Show hadn't seen it yet either, but I ran off to make a cuppa until he'd finished spitballing anyway, because I wasn't sure if he's a bookwalker or not. Then the second was a colleague on maternity leave, who I know is a bookwalker, who came in to show off her newborn and started to talk about how the baby had slept through the finale – I was one of about five people who immediately shouted, "Don't tell us anything!!!" So having got hold of the episode very, very late last night, I got up at the crack of stupid this morning to watch it, rather than face another day of intense internet restrictions and ear-plugging! My favourite moment? Was when Jon said, "Love is the death of duty," and Tyrion all but collapsed in shock at the thought that Jon Snow could have come up with such a profound statement, and was so relieved to hear that it was actually a quote. 😄 I'm not sure why I was picturing more bloodbaths in this episode, just because it was the finale – A Show has always structured itself around immensely bloody penultimate episodes followed by calmer, more pensive season finales. Perhaps we should have anticipated that this last ever episode would follow suit. But I didn't. I was really scared that Dany would start attacking other cities (i.e. Winterfell!) before she could be brought down. This was better. Not a perfect episode, and not a perfect season, I'm pretty sure we could nitpick till kingdom come, but a fitting finale, in the end, one which did its best to tie up as many loose threads as possible. Also, a much happier ending than I expected! We only lost one character in this episode – everyone else got to live! That's much, much more than I expected. I'm not sure what to say about Dany, in the end. I really thought last week that her savage slaughter of King's Landing was a moment of madness and bloodlust, brought about by a release of pent-up rage and grief. I thought once it was over, in the harsh light of a new day, she might see the horror in the eyes of her closest advisors and feel or express some semblance of regret – for having killed children, at the very least. But no. She did what she did deliberately, and felt no regret at all. How far she has fallen, how horribly her noble ideals have been corrupted by her ambition and her ruthlessness and her entitlement and her delusion. After everything that had been said, after the promises she had made, she felt utterly justified in her actions, and planned to continue until the whole of Westeros was brought to its knees. "If not love, then fear." What's that quote? Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely. Dany's story, in the end, was a tragedy. Tyrion pretty much summed up to Jon everything I said last week about Dany's journey – I can look back over her narrative trajectory across eight seasons and see clearly how she ended up where she ended, and can also see clearly how many opportunities there were for her to take a different road. I had hoped, rather than thought, that Dany's loyal armies might react to her having burned the city down with them in it, but of course that little detail ended up being swept under the carpet. When the Iron Throne melted, I thought for sure we were about to see the total dissolution of Westeros, and it seemed fitting. The Seven Kingdoms were brought together as one realm in the first place by Targaryen invaders riding dragons, so it seemed fitting that the death of the last Targaryen (Jon aside) would lead to a return of the old ways, with seven independent kingdoms and no one sitting on an overall throne. So it came as a surprise when six out of the seven decided to vote for a new king to rule over them – and of all the contenders for the Iron Throne that have been discussed over the years, I'm not sure anyone saw Bran coming! I like it, though. I like that a new system of rule is being trialled (not very far removed from the old perhaps, but baby steps). I like that Sansa got her independent Northern Queendom in the end. I liked the glimpse we got of the new King's Council and how it is likely to work out going forward. I like that Arya has the freedom to follow her own path without hindrance, as she has always wanted – out exploring the world. I like that A Show managed to position two disabled characters in positions of power, come the end. I really liked that so many of my favourite secondary characters came out of it all in one piece! Davos! Brienne! Gendry! Pod! And even Bronn, the ultimate cockroach of Westeros, got his reward in the end. And Sam! Bless his heart, Sam is such a rebel, in his own quiet way, overturning traditions left, right and centre. He was a Night's Watchman, that's meant to be for life…yet he quietly left to become a Maester instead. Night's Watch aren't supposed to take wives or father children, and neither are Maesters – Sam quietly set up home with Gilly, adopted her son, and has fathered the new baby she is expecting. He didn't complete his training at the Citadel, yet has got himself promoted to Grand Maester. Sam is the best. I wish him and Gilly and little Sam and the new baby a long, happy life together! As for Jon, I was highly amused at the implication that Tormund and the rest of the Wildlings had just been hanging around at Castle Black waiting for him, in the sure and certain expectation that he'd end up back there eventually. I was also highly amused that having been sentenced to life in the Night's Watch, Jon had no sooner got there than he left again to go live north of the Wall with the Wildlings, apparently. I have absolutely no doubt that in the future that won't be written, he will fall in love with another Wildling woman, father a family, and get himself named King-Beyond-the-Wall whether he likes it or not, because that's just the way it is with Jon! And so the wheel turns – Dany was never going to break that wheel, whatever she did, because she herself was always part of it, just another spoke in the wheel trying to come out on top. And if Jon's future did pan out the way I predict, I'm also sure no one south of the Wall would care that he wasn't serving his sentence to the letter – other than perhaps Yara, that is, and I suspect she'd get over it. The only reason he really got banished was to placate the Unsullied, and they've gone now. Speaking of which, I'm afraid I can't see the Unsullied sailing off to Naath as a happy ending, because Grey Worm demonstrated loud and clear here that they have absolutely no moral compass, either en masse or as individuals. It makes sense, given their background, but also makes them potentially very dangerous – especially if they stay together as a fighting force, rather than disbanding to forge new lives of their own. It makes me sad, because none of them ever truly broke free of their slavery, despite Dany's fine words and their supposed choice to follow her. They were raised to be soldiers and follow orders, their master making all their decisions for them – and when given their freedom, they simply swapped a master for a queen, and continued to be exactly what they had been raised to be: soldiers following orders, allowing their queen to make all their decisions for them, and to do all their thinking for them. Not one of them seems to have explored the possibility of becoming truly independent and forging actual lives of their own, not even Grey Worm, really, as all his plans with Missandei were for some neulous future that always came second to their duty to Dany in the now. Dany went nuts and started slaughtering a city full of civilians who had already surrendered – the Unsullied were incapable of seeing for themselves that it was wrong, they simply saw it as another order to be followed, no matter what. Now they've taken themselves off to Naath, because Grey Worm once dreamed of retiring there with Missandei – but what will they do in Naath when they get there, if they have never learned to see themselves as anything but soldiers with other people doing all the thinking for them? Someone up-thread commented on Dany calling Grey Worm something other than Grey Worm – I think she just called him Grey Worm in Valerian. I am going to assume that the Dothraki also left Westeros at the end, to return to their grasslands, but they are a loose thread that A Show didn't bother to tie up, in the end – nameless, faceless barbarian warriors to fight and die on Dany's behalf, without any named individual in the cast to represent and humanise them. It is one of the aspects of A Show that I side-eye most strongly. Also, did my eyes deceive me, or was that Robyn Arryn at the Council? Wow, he's grown up! Looks like his foster father might actually have succeeded in whipping him into something approaching shape, too! And I was highly amused, after everything we've said about his fate being left hanging, that Edmure Tully popped up out of nowhere here, having learned nothing at all from his experiences. This final season has been very rushed, the last half of it especially – flipping heck, there have been entire seasons that covered less ground than we got through in these last three episodes! And I do regret that, because it has felt at times as if the characters were being moved from plot point to plot point like so many chess pieces, without time and space to explore the motivations and mindsets that took them there. There are a lot of flaws in the story, and I'm pretty sure we could sit here picking them apart indefinitely, but at the end of the day, I came out of this episode feeling content. A lot of characters I cared about were lost along the way, but everyone left standing at the end was a character I loved, and they were left in a position where we can actually imagine a brighter, happier future for them going forward. That's a lot more than I had dared to hope for! Okay, having got all that off my chest, I am now going to go back and read what the rest of you had to say… Edited May 21, 2019 by Llywela 5 Link to comment
Llywela May 21, 2019 Share May 21, 2019 (edited) And now it is later, and I must apologise for the double post as I reply to some of the above. On 5/20/2019 at 5:28 AM, Anothermi said: I couldn't remember some of the other still-living Westerosi lords present at that council (so suddenly). Just the new Prince of Dorne because of his outfit. I recognized a couple of faces but can't put a "House Name" to them. Grey Worm (even Davos couldn't remember his new name) seems to be cooling down and Gingerella got her wish that he would go to Naarth. Also looks like the Dothraki were bound back to Essos on the ships. Not that a point was made of it because who gives a shit about them anymore. Right? (I'll get over it. I'm sure I will) Me too - not being able to figure out who all those people were at the Council, that is. The sudden time skip was a bit jarring all round, actually - ye gods, how many episodes and how much drama would previous seasons have squeezed out of those weeks we skipped over in a single scene there?! The compression of the season really has been extreme, and all the characters have suffered as a result of it. I didn't think Grey Worm had a new name, I thought Dany was calling him Grey Worm in Valerian, because she was speaking Valerian at the time, but I'm not sure why I thought that, as names aren't usually translated. But then, the Unsullied aren't native Common Tongue speakers, so he's unlikely to have actually been called Grey Worm (a Common Tongue name) to begin with, so the real question is why his name was ever translated in the first place, other than as a narrative device so that we would all understand what a lousy name he was choosing to stick with. On 5/20/2019 at 6:25 AM, gingerella said: 1. If Jon was the true heir to the throne, why is he banished? Kings killed other kings to stake their claim to sit on the throne all the time so why is this any different? That really doesn’t make much sense to me. 2. Why was Dany alone in the throne room? That also makes Zero sense. I think Jon was banished because of the delicate political situation brought about by his assassination of Dany - because he wasn't in a position to seize power, given that the city was controlled by Unsullied and Dothraki, even if he'd intended the assassination as a coup. I doubt he thought for a moment about what would happen next, or made any plans for how to handle the aftermath. He just knew that it had to be done, and that he was the only one who could do it, so he did - and would then have been surrounded by forces loyal to Dany, which would very effectively prevent any power grab. Usually, claimants who assassinate their rivals position themselves carefully beforehand in order to press their claim from a position of force. Jon didn't. I figure Dany was alone because she had chosen to be, because she wanted that first moment with the Iron Throne for herself - and because she probably felt completely safe. She had obliterated the city, imprisoned the only person standing who'd dared to speak against her, her loyal soldiers were stationed nearby to prevent anyone getting near. But Jon had immunity - Jon could walk straight past any guards in the halls because he was known to have that relationship with the queen. It's why he was the only person - other than perhaps Arya wearing Grey Worm's face - who could have done it. Speaking of which, what was the point of Arya's shapeshifting, in the end? She hasn't used it since she slaughtered the Freys and that was about two seasons ago! You'd expect such a major plot point to be brought into play for the final climax of the story - but I suppose A Show had become so unwieldy that it was impossible to weave all the strands together neatly. On 5/20/2019 at 4:30 PM, DirewolfPup said: 3) The disservice A Show did to the Dany plotline. I was never a fan of her ending up on the throne, but the story was not told in a satisfying way. Jon told Tyrion in this very episode that (major paraphrasing alert) "being born with a last name doesn't turn you evil otherwise I'd be evil." It's like the show was unintentionally mocking us. I will have a difficult time with this turn of events for years. 4) The immediate aftermath of Dany's victory didn't sit well with me. She has her WWII speech in front of the cheering Dothraki and stomping Unsullied. They are all about her plans to save the 7 kingdoms. Then Tyrion publicly shames her and throws down his hand pin. She arrests him. How much time passed before Jon went to visit him? 10 minutes? 5 days? Timelines have always been an issue, but it changes the context of her murder and Jon's choice to murder her. If it was 10 minutes, her oogling the throne would make sense, but her hoards wouldn't have jailed Jon, they would have killed him on site. Then the Dothraki and Unsullied peace out back east. 5) Easteros is going to be back under slavers control and everything reverts back to normal. Nothing in these worlds has massively changed aside for a smattering of females allowed to make decisions (Brienne and Sansa mainly). Magic is gone except for one dragon wandering about on his own. Its a very hallow end. I'm still very much in two minds about Dany's story. On the one hand, I can totally believe that this was always the plan for the character, because she always had the potential for it, since way back. I can think of multiple occasions over the years where she has taken extreme action and we all huddled here in awe afterward admiring her power but also worrying about her ruthlessness and fretting that she might end up like her father, so we did anticipate that. And her ruthlessness has been escalating over the years, while her losses this season have further de-stabilised her, and she has been increasingly disillusioned by her experiences in Westeros. It does make sense for her, as a narrative trajectory, and the groundwork was laid...but not enough work was put into her downward spiral this season. It was fairly clear from early on that A Show was pointing her in this direction, there have been anvils dropping left, right and centre, but with everyone jumping from plot point to plot point, deeper exploration of the characters as people fell by the wayside. And Dany suffered from that more than most. And, above all else, I fear she suffered from being a powerful female character written by men, which is why her story sticks in my craw despite making sense to me, with hindsight. The timeline this episode was all over the place, I agree. I think all the early stuff was supposed to have happened in a very short space of time, like, the same day. Tyrion's imprisonment, Jon going to see him, Dany going to the throne room for the first time and Jon finding her there and killing her - it only makes sense if it all happened on the same day, in the emotional turmoil of the city's destruction. Grey Worm arresting Jon rather than killing him on the spot is the only thing that doesn't make sense about that scenario. He is a dude who likes to have orders to follow, though, and he had no orders for that situation - plus he is a dude with great respect for the chain of command. If Dany is dead she is no longer queen, and Grey Worm himself becomes a foreign invader surrounded by enemies, so the political landscape shifts immediately. Plus, he may not have been on the spot immediately - if Jon was already locked up by the time Grey Worm heard the news, I can believe that he'd not react precipitously, despite the rage he would not doubt feel. What a shame we missed out on all the aftermath, really! Side note - I am dead impressed that they not only managed to find intact rooms to lock prisoners in, but also managed to locate keys! I think life going on more or less as usual at the end was probably deliberate, because that is the way of the world. For all Dany's grand talk of breaking the wheel, for as long as she wanted to sit on that throne herself, it was always going to be impossible because she herself was part of the wheel. Even if she had succeeded in wiping out all opposition to the tyranny she was definitely settling into, the wheel still wouldn't be broken - fear and resentment would simply have festered until someone, someday decided to act on it, and the whole cycle would start up again. Change doesn't come quickly and is difficult to impose from above. And so, after all those terrible wars and all that bloodshed, the show ends with life carrying on more or less as it ever has, as it should - and yet Westeros has changed, in subtle but important ways which could yet grow into greater change further down the line. I consider that a hopeful ending. Or maybe it is just wishful thinking! On 5/20/2019 at 6:25 AM, gingerella said: 3. Why was Tyrion left out of the story? Wtf? If it wasn't just Sam teasing, I would imagine because the story was the story of great rulers and their deeds, not their advisors. 23 hours ago, Pallas said: Meanwhile -- more inexplicably --- Grey Worm keeps the Imp on ice so that Tyrion may be judged by...Dany's successor as ruler of the Seven Kingdoms? Who has yet to be decided, but will be, in a vote that excludes Grey Worm? A vote called, debated and ratified in whole by the prisoner himself? Heh, I would agree with this, but there are eight full seasons of evidence to show that Westerosi politics are primitive at best and downright ridiculous at worst, so Tyrion being given a voice in deciding the political future of the realm despite being a prisoner didn't seem so out of place to me! I'm not surprised that Grey Worm kept Tyrion on ice after Dany's death, though. He had no orders to follow. He might presume that Dany would execute the traitor, but that sentence had not been passed, and Grey Worm likes to have orders. Plus, as you pointed out, he'd have known that his own position was precarious with Dany gone - his army had control of King's Landing, but are now in the position of being isolated foreign invaders surrounded by hostile enemy forces. If keeping Jon alive as a hostage gives him a valuable bargaining tool, the same can be said of Tyrion. 21 hours ago, Pallas said: 4) The North gets a Nexit... I love it. 😄 21 hours ago, Pallas said: But Bran's inner life was another blank slate. Like Dany's: long ago we asked, again and again, Who is she? What does she do when not holding court? What else does she care about? What does she read? What makes her laugh? Does she appreciate any of the arts or sport? Does she have any spiritual leanings? What's in her heart? In how many minutes of screen time?, we learned more of Maester Aemon as a soul in this world, than we ever did of Dany or of Bran. I agree, some of the character work has been lousy this season. Looking back at what a bright, lively little lad Bran once was, I feel bad for his actor, having to portray him as so emotionless now. I get that this was a decision made to show how becoming the Three Eyed Raven had changed him, that he isn't truly Bran any more - but if he isn't truly Bran, then he shouldn't be king. And if part of him is still Bran, we really needed to see more of it. We got a few tiny sparks of human connection - he was lovely with Theon at the end there, giving him just the moral boost he needed before he died. More of that would have been nice, human connection to reassure us that Bran is still a person. Also, side note - every time anyone referred to Bran openly as the Three Eyed Raven, I wondered if any of the character listening has any idea what they were talking about! Because I'm still not sure I do, and I've been following his journey all this time! 20 hours ago, gingerella said: It was snowing in KL when Dany made her World War/Hunger Games declaration speech on the steps of what was left of the Red Keep. Then they cut to the Dragon Pit for the Westerosi Idol Selection Committee and it's all sand and warm, like, where's the fucking snow? We all know Winter Has Come and suddenly it's looking like Club Med in the Caribbean. WTF? Oh, also...suddenly Robin the Idiot, he of lesser mental faculty, is now able to speak like a normal person and be on a council to select leaders? A leopard cannot change his spots, nor can a mentally incompetent inbred change himself. WTF? I think it was ash falling on King's Landing in the aftermath of the destruction, not snow. It was one hell of a conflagration. There would be ash in the air for quite some time afterward. The dragon pit scene was several weeks later, by which time the ash would have cleared. As for Robin, I give full credit to Lord What's-His-Name who's been fostering him all this time. We haven't seen them for years, but it was already clear then that the foster-lord was doing his damndest to knock some sense into the boy. Apparently some of it sunk in eventually! 10 hours ago, janjan said: I really thought Jon would be dragged kicking and screaming and forced to be King. After he killed Dany, of course. I foresaw that part even without resident ravens like Ginge has. Ginge, did you check their legs for message capsules? I also expected Jon to become king and then abdicate - that's been his usual pattern, after all! But it makes more sense, with hindsight, that he never took the throne, and I think I'm happier with it this way. The Targaryen era is now definitively over, the Iron Throne they created when they imposed their rule on Westeros is now gone. It feels right that a Targaryen (even one named Snow) should not rule after that, even for a short time. I'm pretty sure there's more I wanted to say that I've forgotten, but this has gone on long enough already, so I'll leave on one final thought: at the end there, all I could think was how surprised and proud Ned and Cat would be, if they could see where their (surviving) children ended up. Edited May 21, 2019 by Llywela 6 Link to comment
gingerella May 21, 2019 Share May 21, 2019 (edited) @Llywela, I'm so glad you didn't have to wait any longer and hold your fingers in your ears! I love your take on the finale and agree with much of it. But what I wanted to say is this - you mentioned it being the end - well and truly The End - of Targaryen rulers, and that brought to mind Jon Snow. I still think of him as Jon Snow, not Aegon Targaryen. No matter how profound that parentage reveal was, and no matter how many spitballs we threw at The Wall about what that would mean for Jon's future, in the end, I DO believe that the Targaryen dynasty was really over. Because in the end, Jon's Stark sensibilities took over and those character traits were, and have always been, who Jon Snow really was, is, and will likely always be. Someone whom people look up to. A leader to others because he is compassionate, fair, and just. Integrity and honor mean something deep to Jon Snow, always has, no doubt always will. He never wanted to be in charge of anything, but he kept getting pushing to the front of everything (from teaching others to fight at Winterfell, to becoming LC of the NW, to more or less co-leading the Wildlings South of The Wall, to becoming King of the North, to being pushed to be the King of Westeros) because of his Stark blood and the character traits that that bloodline and that family brought into his very DNA. He was never really a Targ - other than riding a dragon and schtupping his aunt (okay, unbeknownst to him, but still, he made out with her after knowing that so...yanno...), he has never showed the character traits that seem to come with that bloodline. So to me, when Jon Snow, along with Tormund, leads the Free Folk back into a now-peaceful and WW-free forest, he is living out his most Starkian of qualities. If Unclen Benjen were still alive, no doubt he'd be riding right next to Jon and Tormund as well. Being truly 'of the North' means everything to Jon Snow, and he is living the ultimate Northerner's life now. I find that very poignant and touching. Go ahead and call me a sap, I don't care. One thing A Show has done in spades is to make us care about these characters so deeply, and I feel Jon's final scene was as fitting as it could possibly be for him. Edited May 21, 2019 by gingerella 7 Link to comment
Anothermi May 21, 2019 Share May 21, 2019 7 hours ago, Llywela said: My favourite moment? Was when Jon said, "Love is the death of duty," and Tyrion all but collapsed in shock at the thought that Jon Snow could have come up with such a profound statement, and was so relieved to hear that it was actually a quote. 😄 Hee! I loved that moment too. But that lesson from his great uncle (grand uncle?) was one that Jon both struggled to learn, yet took to heart. That and "The man who passes the sentence must wield the sword". Both of those lessons were visible in Jon's struggle over agreeing with Tyrion. To Tyrion, it was easy to see Dany's fatal flaws and to act on that knowledge (even though he, too, allowed Varys to die before he let himself believe it) because his next act would just be to convince someone else to take action. Jon knew that if he accepted what Tyrion was saying (passed the sentence) HE would have to wield the sword. And his love for Dany was at war with his duty. That was nuanced writing. 30 minutes ago, gingerella said: Because in the end, Jon's Stark sensibilities took over and those character traits were, and have always been, who Jon Snow really was, is, and will likely always be. Yes, Jon - although not an interesting man - lived a very interesting life. He was, in spite of his initial rigid adherence to "the rules", constantly learning life's lessons. He wasn't entertaining, but could enjoy a good joke - at the right moment. There were only 3 other living Targs that we were shown: Visaerys, Dany and Aemon. Only Aemon, of those three, showed us that there were alternatives to the crazy. We learned that Rhaegar, his father, was also an alternative, but Jon never saw him and neither did we. But, upon reflection, I'd say that Jon's Targ-ness came from Aemon and the rest of him came from Ned. 5 Link to comment
Llywela May 21, 2019 Share May 21, 2019 I remembered the other thing I wanted to say! Last week, Dany's hair was a mess - both symbolic of her fraying mental state and a tangible outcome of the loss of her one and only handmaiden. This week, however, supposedly picking up immediately after her burning of King's Landing, when she landed and went to address the troops, her hair was not only immaculate, but more heavily braided than ever. So my question is: where the hell did Dany find a hairdresser, in the middle of the devastation of King's Landing? Because she sure as hell didn't create that intricate new style by herself! 24 minutes ago, Anothermi said: That and "The man who passes the sentence must wield the sword". Both of those lessons were visible in Jon's struggle over agreeing with Tyrion. To Tyrion, it was easy to see Dany's fatal flaws and to act on that knowledge (even though he, too, allowed Varys to die before he let himself believe it) because his next act would just be to convince someone else to take action. Jon knew that if he accepted what Tyrion was saying (passed the sentence) HE would have to wield the sword. And his love for Dany was at war with his duty. That was nuanced writing. Ooh, I'd forgotten that quote - yes, Jon absolutely knew that if anything was to be done about Dany, he would have to do it himself. He was the only one who could have got close enough, but yes indeed - the man who passes the sentence must wield the sword. That must have been weighing on him. There was no higher authority to pass sentence on Dany, it was a responsibility Jon had to take on himself, for the sake of his entire nation, because it was clear that no one was safe for so long as Dany believed anyone to be opposed to her rule. And despite all he'd said to Tyrion, Jon being Jon, at the end of the day, couldn't have done other than he did. He might not be Ned's son, but he has Ned's blood, all right. as @gingerella said, he is way more Stark than Targaryen. Damn, now I feel bad for Dany all over again. How different her life might have been, if she'd not been raised as a Targaryen, raised to feel robbed. 6 Link to comment
Anothermi May 21, 2019 Share May 21, 2019 5 minutes ago, Llywela said: Damn, now I feel bad for Dany all over again. How different her life might have been, if she'd not been raised as a Targaryen, raised to feel robbed. Yes, indeed. I agreed with Jon that a Name did not define the person. Dany may have still had a quick temper, but the sense of "destiny" and the enabling of her path to power had much to do with shaping her as an adult. She started as Visaerys pawn and once she learned she could and did have power, she made sure no one else would ever treat her like that again. But, like in the tower at Qarth, she had one thing that gave her power and at that point they were strong enough for her to use them. Her last, but best resort to protect herself. And she used it every time she felt cornered. 5 Link to comment
janjan May 21, 2019 Share May 21, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Llywela said: ll I could think was how surprised and proud Ned and Cat would be, if they could see where their (surviving) children ended up. That's an interesting thought. Naturally, they would be horrified at the death of Rickon, and Ned would have to endure knowing what became of Robb. Both would of course be super proud of Sansa, although one hopes they wouldn't have to know what all she went through. Ned would be proud of Arya -- he's the one who first hired a "dancing master" for her. Cat would reluctantly agree but maybe wish her daughter was a little more ladylike. She herself had taken on the traditional female role and probably hoped her daughter would grow out of her tomboy stage and not become a mass murderer. Then there's Jon. Cat would have to kick herself a thousand times for how she treated him, and Ned would wonder if he should have told her right off whose child Jon was. Ned would be proud that Jon always did the honorable thing, even if it was stupid. Jon was the truest son of Ned even if he wasn't. Then there's Bran. As Samwell said when Bran first told him he was the TER, "Um, I don't know what that is." But he ended up king over all (except the North), and spends more time warging than ruling. Ned and Cat would say, "D'oh." Edited May 21, 2019 by janjan 4 Link to comment
Anothermi May 21, 2019 Share May 21, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, janjan said: and not become a mass murderer. She had become a serial murderer. There's a fine difference. (wink) Edited May 21, 2019 by Anothermi what else? Spelling 2 1 Link to comment
Llywela May 21, 2019 Share May 21, 2019 53 minutes ago, janjan said: That's an interesting thought. Naturally, they would be horrified at the death of Rickon, and Ned would have to endure knowing what became of Robb. Both would of course be super proud of Sansa, although one hopes they wouldn't have to know what all she went through. Ned would be proud of Arya -- he's the one who first hired a "dancing master" for her. Cat would reluctantly agree but maybe wish her daughter was a little more ladylike. She herself had taken on the traditional female role and probably hoped her daughter would grow out of her tomboy stage and not become a mass murderer. Then there's Jon. Cat would have to kick herself a thousand times for how she treated him, and Ned would wonder if he should have told her right off whose child Jon was. Ned would be proud that Jon always did the honorable thing, even if it was stupid. Jon was the truest son of Ned even if he wasn't. Then there's Bran. As Samwell said when Bran first told him he was the TER, "Um, I don't know what that is." But he ended up king over all (except the North), and spends more time warging than ruling. Ned and Cat would say, "D'oh." ...okay, Ned and Cat don't need to know everything their kids endured or did along the way! But in a world where almost every other great house has been all but wiped off the face of the map, in a world where so many children have died fighting a war started by their parents, four out of the seven children Ned and Cat raised managed to survive - one is a war hero and leader of men, one is a king, one is a queen, and one is voyaging out into the unknown as a bold explorer. I think Ned and Cat could find plenty to be both surprised by and proud of there! 4 Link to comment
Anothermi May 21, 2019 Share May 21, 2019 7 minutes ago, Llywela said: But in a world where almost every other great house has been all but wiped off the face of the map, in a world where so many children have died fighting a war started by their parents, four out of the seven children Ned and Cat raised managed to survive - one is a war hero and leader of men, one is a king, one is a queen, and one is voyaging out into the unknown as a bold explorer. Ooh. I feel a sequel forming. Or at least fan fiction. (don't read it. I have enough distractions to engaging IRL) After all. Robert becoming King signaled an equally finite feeling after the period of chaos HIS war engendered. The Wheel rolls on. 2 Link to comment
janjan May 21, 2019 Share May 21, 2019 35 minutes ago, Anothermi said: She had become a serial murderer. There's a fine difference. (wink) Lots of Freys, most of them innocent. <guffaw> 2 1 Link to comment
Anothermi May 21, 2019 Share May 21, 2019 But they were Freys, not just anyone and everyone. And I doubt most of them were innocent if they were there. They were part of the Red Wedding. And laughed and told drunken stories about it after. Having said that I do believe there WERE innocent Freys somewhere. 2 Link to comment
walnutqueen May 21, 2019 Share May 21, 2019 2 hours ago, janjan said: not become a mass murderer. 1 hour ago, Anothermi said: She had become a serial murderer. There's a fine difference. (wink) The killing of the Freys, innocent or not, is defined as a mass murder. Every true crime buff knows the difference between a mass murderer, spree killer, and serial killer. Or is it just me? ;~) 1 2 Link to comment
janjan May 21, 2019 Share May 21, 2019 36 minutes ago, walnutqueen said: Every true crime buff knows the difference between a mass murderer, spree killer, and serial killer. Or is it just me? ;~) After watching A Show, I think we've all become connoisseurs of killers! 3 1 Link to comment
walnutqueen May 21, 2019 Share May 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, janjan said: After watching A Show, I think we've all become connoisseurs of killers! Come to think of it, my fantasy and reality tv worlds have collided! heh. 1 1 Link to comment
DirewolfPup May 22, 2019 Share May 22, 2019 I saw a comment on twitter that sent my cold-addled brain into a torrent of terrible thoughts. The comment was essentially, "couldn't Bran have mentioned something about this mass murder that Dany was going to reap on King's Landing?" That got me thinking again about Bran as king. About how he's too neutral and would let bad things happen. He wouldn't interject to course correct when it meant saving lives and whatnot. He's an observer and a living history document basically. He also seemed to know exactly that he was set to be king. "That's why I traveled all the way here." So he let thousands of innocents die to turn Tyrion and Jon against Dany, the latter killing her. Without that, he wouldn't be king. Did he keep that to himself because it was "destiny" or because he wanted to be king. Then it gets worse. Root-dude said that he was the three-eyed-raven for a thousand years, yes? So does that mean that Bran the "broken" basically, got his way being king and will live for a thousand years as an omnipotent ruler that will out-live generations of people. Plus, he would always have knowledge if anyone, literally ever in the whole world, didn't like him ruling and wanted him ousted. He's an opportunistic, cold-blooded, almost immortal tyrant. Is Bran the villain here? 2 Link to comment
gingerella May 22, 2019 Share May 22, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, DirewolfPup said: I saw a comment on twitter that sent my cold-addled brain into a torrent of terrible thoughts. The comment was essentially, "couldn't Bran have mentioned something about this mass murder that Dany was going to reap on King's Landing?" That got me thinking again about Bran as king. About how he's too neutral and would let bad things happen. He wouldn't interject to course correct when it meant saving lives and whatnot. He's an observer and a living history document basically. He also seemed to know exactly that he was set to be king. "That's why I traveled all the way here." So he let thousands of innocents die to turn Tyrion and Jon against Dany, the latter killing her. Without that, he wouldn't be king. Did he keep that to himself because it was "destiny" or because he wanted to be king. Then it gets worse. Root-dude said that he was the three-eyed-raven for a thousand years, yes? So does that mean that Bran the "broken" basically, got his way being king and will live for a thousand years as an omnipotent ruler that will out-live generations of people. Plus, he would always have knowledge if anyone, literally ever in the whole world, didn't like him ruling and wanted him ousted. He's an opportunistic, cold-blooded, almost immortal tyrant. Is Bran the villain here? @DirewolfPup, I don't think Bran is a villian because I'm pretty sure he said he cannot see the future, and that's why he couldn't have predicted what Dany would do to the people of KL. He sees the past for sure, I'm not sure he can see in real time, but I'm pretty sure he cannot see into the future because someone asked him about that I think. I don't think Bran's the worst option for King - he is basically a more passive version of Jon in that he didn't particularly want to be King, but he realizes it's his destiny so he's willing to take a crack at it. He seems more worried about where Drogon is, and rightly so because having an angry and bereft fire breathing dragon on the loose isn't a good thing for anyone or anyplace. Drogon's gotta eat right? So he's out there torching people, places and things. I think we were shown that Bran is fine with his Small Council running the day to day, and he looking after other stuff, like angry dragons because nobody else can warg into Drogon except him. I think A Show telegraphed to us for the last few seasons that either Jon or Tyrion would have made a fine and just King but alas, the Dragon Pit King-Picker Selection Committee was hamstrung on both of them due to the pesky fact that they were, at selection time, prisoners of a TBD crown! If not Jon, I suppose that Tyrion would have been a good King, but I think part of choosing Bran was choosing a House that has a history and reputation of doing the right thing whenever possible, and that would be House Stark. I was thinking about this yesterday and wondering if A Show was ultimately about the Stark Family or Jon Snow. I'm not sure, but I feel that despite there being a multitude of characters that paraded across our TV screens each week for eight seasons, at the end of the day, when the final credits rolled it felt like it was a story about one family's quest for truth and justice. Then I whittled it down to perhaps even being about one man's life journey, Jon Snow's, because at the end of the day, we are left with him anchoring the last shot we see...Thoughts? Edited May 22, 2019 by gingerella 5 Link to comment
janjan May 22, 2019 Share May 22, 2019 17 minutes ago, gingerella said: the Dragon Pit King-Picker Selection Committee was hamstrung on both of them due to the pesky fact that they were, at selection time, prisoners of a TBD crown! And an odd Selection Committee it was, too. It was presumably a gathering of the remaining house-heads, sort of a Magna Carta redux. But why were Bran and Arya and Brienne there? Methinks it was actually a Committee of Fan Faves, taking advice from another Fave who was still in shackles! Stranger things have happened (though it's hard to think when). :-) Bran doesn't seem to be villainous so much as useless. He flew around during the Battle of Winterfell, possibly gathering intelligence, but he didn't share it with anybody and didn't affect the outcome. (Go Arya!) And his Delphic commentary has been nothing but blindingly obvious. Whatever happens, he intones that that's what's supposed to happen. Well ok, if he just means that past events led to present outcomes. (D'oh.) If he means that present outcomes are somehow "right" or even "pre-ordained," he never makes an argument for that or establishes himself as any kind of authority on the matter. Let's hope he finds Drogon, though I fear he won't actually do anything or even tell anybody about it. He'll just fly around for a while and then come back and stare into the middle distance again. Could it be the Bran the Broken is actually Bran the Plot Device, shoe-horned into the kingship just to leave the more interesting Starks free to pursue more interesting lives? There's already talk of an Arya spin-off. But A Show could have accomplished that by having now-legitimate Gendry assert his heritage. And finding him a lady who can teach him how to use a fork. 3 Link to comment
DirewolfPup May 23, 2019 Share May 23, 2019 I'm pretty sure its been shown that Seers of any kind can see into the future. That's why Jojen Reed set out to find him in the first place. Because he saw Bran in a vision, that he needed to take him north of the wall to what ended up being the cave with the three-eyed-raven. I would expect that the three-eyed-raven would have more control of what they can see than simple Seers. 1 Link to comment
gingerella May 23, 2019 Share May 23, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, DirewolfPup said: I'm pretty sure its been shown that Seers of any kind can see into the future. That's why Jojen Reed set out to find him in the first place. Because he saw Bran in a vision, that he needed to take him north of the wall to what ended up being the cave with the three-eyed-raven. I would expect that the three-eyed-raven would have more control of what they can see than simple Seers. @DirewolfPup, in poking around on the internet today, I found that the consensus seems to be that Bran has what is called Greensight (I don't think A Show ever called it that, but maybe I missed it?), and he can see the past and the present, but only gets flashes of future events and they come in bits that don't necessarily make any sense to him at the time - like pieces of a prophecy that are disconnected. Someone said he saw the Great Sept blowing up before it happened, but he didn't know what he was seeing at that time. I don't remember that scene at all, but that's what I was reading. Here's another snippet about future forecasting from Time of all places: Quote There were several hints this season that, as the Three-Eyed Raven, Bran had mastered his greenseeing abilities to such an extent that he could clearly see the future. In the season 8 premiere, Bran cryptically told Sam that he was “waiting for an old friend” right before Jaime returned to Winterfell for the first time since he pushed Bran out of a tower window in the series premiere. Later, when Jaime asked him why he hadn’t told anyone about what happened, Bran simply replied, “You wouldn’t be able to help us in this fight if I let them murder you first.” So perhaps he honed his skills and was able to figure some pieces out, but who knows if he knew what Dany was really going to do? We can never know because the show runners got bored with their toy and couldn't be bothered to map out to full final season so we lost a total of 7 hours of storytelling between last season and this, that could have breathed enough space into A Show to tell A Viewer what the fuck it all meant, as opposed to never really addressing the BIG IDEAS that we've been shown over the last many years including: The Valonqar, Azhor Azai/the Prince who was promised, the Lord of Light and what he wanted after The Long Night was won, that Jon Snow was actually the real Targaryen heir, etc. Edited May 23, 2019 by gingerella 2 Link to comment
janjan May 23, 2019 Share May 23, 2019 (edited) 55 minutes ago, gingerella said: n the season 8 premiere, Bran cryptically told Sam that he was “waiting for an old friend” right before Jaime returned to Winterfell for the first time since he pushed Bran out of a tower window in the series premiere. Later, when Jaime asked him why he hadn’t told anyone about what happened, Bran simply replied, “You wouldn’t be able to help us in this fight if I let them murder you first.” (Ginge was quoting someone else.) I don't know anything about greensight, but those examples could be normal wizardly simultaneous sight. I.e., Bran could have seen Jaime trucking his way north and made the logical assumption that he was headed to Winterfell. And it's also logical to assume that his kinfolk would murder Jaime if they knew what he had done to Bran. So the verdict is still out on whether Bran can see the future. I tend to think he can't, simply because there are so many possible futures. The possibilities increase geometrically with every flap of that Amazonian butterfly's wings. UNLESS the future is fore-ordained, so that there is only one. In which case, there is no point in anybody's doing anything. BTW, on rewatch tonight, I was struck that the opening theme music -- that gorgeous cello song -- was repeated as Jon and the Wildlings rode out north of the wall. But this time it was a chorale -- definitely voices, although I couldn't make out any words. It was gorgeous, though. That and the green sprout poking up through the snow just shouted hope and rebirth. Jon will be fine. Edited May 23, 2019 by janjan 4 Link to comment
gingerella May 23, 2019 Share May 23, 2019 1 hour ago, janjan said: BTW, on rewatch tonight, I was struck that the opening theme music -- that gorgeous cello song -- was repeated as Jon and the Wildlings rode out north of the wall. But this time it was a chorale -- definitely voices, although I couldn't make out any words. It was gorgeous, though. That and the green sprout poking up through the snow just shouted hope and rebirth. Jon will be fine. I keep forgetting to mention the green sprouts coming up through the snow, I get that it was probably foretelling that Spring and new beginnings were around the corner...except that the writers seem to have forgotten that we’ve been hit over the head for eight seasons about how Winter can last generations, so now it’s only a few months. WTF? It was a beautiful scene though...Jon was never happier than when he was with Ygritte, Living north of the the Wall, so it’s bittersweet that he ends up with her people the end, isn’t it. *sniff* 3 Link to comment
Llywela May 23, 2019 Share May 23, 2019 (edited) Interesting spec up there about Bran. Just another example of how the shortened episode count really hamstrung this final season, preventing any in depth development of any of the characters, really. Bran has suffered from lack of development more than most, over the years, really - and it seems strange to be saying that about a character that has changed so much since we first met him, but there has been so little exploration of his inner heart and mind, how he really feels about his situation and the people around him, that his development comes off as superficial. A mere plot device. I don't think he's quite as passive as some here seem to think, though. We may not have been given much insight into his inner workings, ever, but this season we have seen him volunteer himself up as bait for the Night King - without which, the army of the living could never have prevailed, Bran was another crucial cog in that particular piece of clockwork - and we have seen him offer words of forgiveness and acceptance to both Theon and Jaime when they needed it. So there have been sparks...but woefully undeveloped. If A Show was positioning him to become king, it really should have put a bit more effort into laying the groundwork. I'm glad, though, that Tyrion ended up as his Hand. Becoming Hand of the King first time round was such a turning point for Tyrion, it meant so much to him to be entrusted with that responsibility, gave such a boost to his self-worth. He may not always make the right choices, but he has always tried really hard to do the right thing, to be a good Hand to each of the rulers he has served, and has learned a lot from the experience. He'll be a good Hand to Bran, is absolutely the right person to steer the new Small Council in the right direction. Thinking about Bran and his weird journey through the seasons has got me thinking about the structure of A Show overall, the way the mythology and the politics and all the various sub-plots have developed and woven together over the years. There have been times when all the storylines flowed together seamlessly...but there have also been times when the mythology and the politics felt like weird bedfellows that didn't really belong together, times when various storylines have felt forced or seemed oddly truncated. How much of that awkwardness exists in the original text, I wonder, and how much was a by-product of the adaptation process? At times, it has felt like A Show wasn't entirely sure what it really wanted to be, and again I wonder if that is also true of the books or is rather a tension between the style of the novels and the stylistic demands of making a television drama. We know that these last couple of seasons have not had the original novels to guide them, but I believe they were written based on the notes and guidance of the novelist, which I presume means this is the eventual outcome he intends for his novels, as well. Will those novels, if they are ever written, manage to smooth out the awkwardness we've seen along the way, develop the characters to this point in a more satisfying manner? Or will the final weaving together of the storylines feel as awkward there as it has at times here, on-screen? 4 hours ago, gingerella said: Jon was never happier than when he was with Ygritte, Living north of the the Wall, so it’s bittersweet that he ends up with her people the end, isn’t it. *sniff* Maybe next time Jon has a girlfriend who suggests they just stay in an isolated cave forever, he'll actually agree and live happily ever after! I still think, though, that he'll end up being elected King-Beyond-The-Wall whether he likes it or not, because that's just how Jon rolls! Edited May 23, 2019 by Llywela 4 Link to comment
janjan May 23, 2019 Share May 23, 2019 6 hours ago, Llywela said: I still think, though, that he'll end up being elected King-Beyond-The-Wall whether he likes it or not, because that's just how Jon rolls! So true! He'll be the next Mance Rayder. Duly elected, and a kind and just king. That's our Jon. The choral music that accompanied his ride out was glorious and uplifting, reminiscent of Beethoven's "Ode to Joy." Meanwhile, why does Bran need a Master of Whispers? 1 1 Link to comment
Llywela May 23, 2019 Share May 23, 2019 1 minute ago, janjan said: Meanwhile, why does Bran need a Master of Whispers? I figure most governments operate some form of intelligence agency - if there is unrest of any kind, stirrings of discontent, or some other disgruntled claimant to the throne starts to make rebellious noises, it is generally useful to find out sooner rather than later! Holds true whether the intention is to exterminate opposition or simply mitigate causes of unrest. And Westeros has just suffered through nigh on a decade of civil war, it is going to take a long time to pick up all the pieces - the new ruling council needs to know what is going on out there, what people are saying and where the potential hot spots are, in order to manage the reconstruction and prioritise effectively. So, I guess I can see where a Master of Whisperers would be useful, to keep his ear to the ground and gather that kind of intelligence. 3 Link to comment
janjan May 23, 2019 Share May 23, 2019 8 minutes ago, Llywela said: So, I guess I can see where a Master of Whisperers would be useful, to keep his ear to the ground and gather that kind of intelligence. Oh right. I was thinking that since Bran can see everything, he doesn't need someone to spy for him. But then, I finally remembered that he doesn't see stuff unless he's looking for it. He didn't go see Lyanna's wedding until Sam told him about it. I . want . Varys . back!!!!! <sniff> I wuved him! 5 Link to comment
Anothermi May 23, 2019 Share May 23, 2019 (edited) On 5/22/2019 at 7:16 PM, gingerella said: in poking around on the internet today, I found that the consensus seems to be that Bran has what is called Greensight (I don't think A Show ever called it that, but maybe I missed it?), and he can see the past and the present, but only gets flashes of future events and they come in bits that don't necessarily make any sense to him at the time - like pieces of a prophecy that are disconnected. Someone said he saw the Great Sept blowing up before it happened, but he didn't know what he was seeing at that time. I don't remember that scene at all That would be the 50 second sequence of jumbled visions Bran had in S06E06 Blood of my Blood. Meera is pulling Bran who is still in vision-mode. Perhaps the Max Von Sydow TER had managed to download a memory data dump before he was terminated and Bran had to spend all that time "plugged-in" to receive it all (to process later). After that episode I carefully freeze-framed that sequence (a lot harder to do than to say) A number of times the image came up of the wildfire spreading from Lancel's too-late attempt at snuffing the candle sitting in a pool of it (below the Sept) along the tunnel containing barrels of it. I posted what I found in the Completely Unspoiled thread. It was quite long so I'll quote just a section that mentions that "vision". Quote ...followed at different times by: Cat getting throat slit; Wildfire (green liquid) being poured into clay vessels by capped men; green glow of wildfire flames approaching from the end of the cellar where the clay vessels were stored; Jaime walking toward Mad King on throne and unsheathing his sword; Rebellion-Ned asking Ser Arthur where his sister is; a hand covered in blood near a different arm & hand lying still beside a big bloody gash (possibly the person's body); Jaime stabbing the Mad King; Robb getting stabbed; Jaime stabbing MK again while he lay on the floor; raven in a green wood; Robb falling slowly as Cat watches; ChoF creating the first WW; WW and (Jon?) at Hardhome; Jaime on the Iron Throne with MK dead beside him. That wildfire image appeared more than once, but you can see from that snippet that there were so many images Bran was supposed to be seeing that understanding it all immediately would be impossible. However, that one image that we did see when Lancel failed to snuff out the candle would indicate the ability to see the future. (Note: Lancel was NOT shown in that vision, just the same tunnel.) However, even if Bran could see what was to come, there has been much debate - often around time travel - that suggests messing with "what is Known" can lead to disastrous outcomes. So calling Bran evil or devious for not doing so is definitely debatable. Edited May 28, 2019 by Anothermi 3 Link to comment
gingerella May 24, 2019 Share May 24, 2019 3 hours ago, Anothermi said: However, even if Bran could see what was to come, there has been much debate - often around time travel - that suggests messing with "what is Known" can lead to disastrous outcomes. So calling Bran evil or devious for not doing so is definitely debatable. Thanks @Anothermi for your stellar past data mining efforts above! Yeah, I can't fault Bran for not stopping events like Dany's torching of KL because I don't know that he knew about it really, and even if he did, I do believe he feels like everything happens for a reason. If Dany didn't torch KL, perhaps Jon would have followed her for years and then one day she'd snap and end up exactly where she ended up anyway. I think Bran has told enough people in S8 that "you did exactly what you needed to do so you would be exactly where you needed to be right now [to save mankind from the AotD]." I think that goes for the Last War too. I'm giving Bran a hard pass on this one. 4 Link to comment
Llywela May 24, 2019 Share May 24, 2019 On 5/22/2019 at 7:42 PM, gingerella said: I think A Show telegraphed to us for the last few seasons that either Jon or Tyrion would have made a fine and just King but alas, the Dragon Pit King-Picker Selection Committee was hamstrung on both of them due to the pesky fact that they were, at selection time, prisoners of a TBD crown! If not Jon, I suppose that Tyrion would have been a good King, but I think part of choosing Bran was choosing a House that has a history and reputation of doing the right thing whenever possible, and that would be House Stark. I was thinking about this yesterday and wondering if A Show was ultimately about the Stark Family or Jon Snow. I'm not sure, but I feel that despite there being a multitude of characters that paraded across our TV screens each week for eight seasons, at the end of the day, when the final credits rolled it felt like it was a story about one family's quest for truth and justice. Then I whittled it down to perhaps even being about one man's life journey, Jon Snow's, because at the end of the day, we are left with him anchoring the last shot we see...Thoughts? I've been thinking about this, in conjunction with what I said earlier about A Show not always being entirely sure what it wanted to be - I'm reaching the conclusion that Bran's story typifies that point perfectly, really. Because...if you were to show someone the very first and last episodes of this season, with Little Bran running around being adorable in the beginning, climbing places he shouldn't and witnessing things he shouldn't and getting shoved out of high windows for it, and then Grown Up Bran in his wheelchair being made King...well, that unspoiled someone would probably assume that the eight seasons in between showed Bran's journey from Point A to Point B. But they didn't. Bran's elevation came entirely from left field, and doesn't feel like the outcome that was intended all along. It feels more like the spare part getting the chair because all the other options had been accidentally ruled out along the way - the story told over the seasons simply doesn't support the eventual outcome, and it is hard to avoid the implication that that's because the outcome wasn't actually planned. All the other main characters I think ended up in a more or less logical place that makes sense in terms of their progression and storyline throughout. I keep remembering conversations we had years ago, trying to figure out which characters we thought were endgame, and I think we pretty much had them all pegged. Jon, Dany, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Tyrion - they were the characters we expected to make it to the end, and they did (by which I mean, Dany made it to the final episode, if not the final credits), and I think four out of the six could easily have ended up on the throne and it would have felt a fitting conclusion to their story, and I like that the stories told for them allowed for a variety of possible outcomes. So, for instance, Dany's downfall was foreshadowed throughout, even if it wasn't smoothly executed in the end, but if her story had ended with her heeding the guidance of her advisors, tempering her violent urges, and ending up on the Iron Throne unchallenged, no one would have argued against that ending, it would have felt entirely supported by what had gone before. Sansa becoming Queen in the North is a fitting end to her story, she has been advocating for an independent North for years, while the Northern characters in general had been bucking for independence for longer still - but again, if she had been put forward as Queen of all Westeros, that too would have felt like an earned and justified outcome, supported by her development along the way and in line with her early ambitions. Jon spent the entire show failing upward in a series of dramatic promotions, so if he'd ended up on the throne, it would have been entirely in keeping with his story - yet at the same time, his character has always been strongly rooted in the North and with the freedom associated with the Wildlings, so it is also entirely fitting that he ended up leaving Westeros proper to live beyond the Wall. And I absolutely believe that in the unwritten future he will be named King-Beyond-The-Wall! And then Tyrion - ending the show as Hand of the King is almost a perfect outcome for him, yet he too could easily have been named King and it would feel supported by his journey to that point, learning responsibility and good government along the way. All these characters have had strong journeys, which built toward more than one possible outcome, and that has been a strength of the show. But Bran? Bran's journey has always felt like an afterthought, in many ways - like he was pursuing this path because the source material said he must, rather than because any clear development or outcome was ever foreseen for him and built toward. The mythology behind his development into the Three-eyed Raven has never been fully developed and remains murky at best, a mere plot device that ultimately served only the purpose of luring the Night King into a trap. There has never been anything in his journey that built toward his becoming king, it was a twist that came entirely from left field and feels largely as if it came about because once the ultimate outcome of everyone else's journey was decided, there was no one else left to be king, so it fell on Bran almost by default - as if the entire resolution to this epic, sprawling tale was ultimately made up on the fly. And that's poor storytelling, which brings me back to my point about A Show not knowing what it really wanted to be, or perhaps not really being sure whose story it was ultimately telling. I think you are right, ginge, when you say that for all its epic scope and sprawling cast, this was ultimately the story of the Starks, who more or less bookend the whole thing. It's just a shame that the one who ended up on the throne wasn't given the same development as the others, in order to support his final destination. We could argue that this wasn't really Bran's story, that at the end of the day who ended up on the throne wasn't really important as long as the more 'important' characters got their strong ending - in which case A Show shouldn't have emphasised the chase for the Iron Throne quite so much. Either this was the game of thrones or it wasn't! There are other examples - Arya learning how to shapeshift is another classic example. It was a major part of her character journey, but was then abandoned and never mentioned again. In a properly constructed story, you'd expect such a major piece of character development to be relevant in the denouement - it wasn't, which again gives the impression that a lot of this stuff was just made up along the way, rather than being properly planned with an overall destination in mind. This season has been a season of two halves - the battle against the Night King and the battle for the Iron Throne, and those two stories almost feel like they belong in two different shows. Again, A Show wasn't entirely sure what it wanted to be - an epic fantasy or a political drama. So, yeah, I am increasingly coming to the conclusion that A Show has never been entirely sure what it wanted to be, and that uncertainty has left its mark along the way. 5 Link to comment
janjan May 24, 2019 Share May 24, 2019 5 hours ago, Llywela said: So, yeah, I am increasingly coming to the conclusion that A Show has never been entirely sure what it wanted to be, and that uncertainty has left its mark along the way. Yes, Llywela, you nailed it. I would just add another example of uncertainty, or maybe it's an example of change in intention. I was looking at some outtakes from A Show, now that we're no longer in danger of being sullied. One scene that was dropped was between Bran and Sansa in S7, where Bran lays out for her the litany of LF's deceptions and crimes. So she finally decides to execute him. Why was that scene deleted? I fear it was to set up a cheap twist. Sansa tells a servant, "Have my sister brought to the main hall," and we're invited to think, "Uh oh, she fell for LF's scheming and plans to condemn Arya." She even starts listing the indictment, and we still think it's of Arya, until she suddenly says, "How do you plead, Lord Baelish?" I remember thinking on first watch of that ep that that was unworthy of A Show. There have been many twists and shocking developments, but they used to be earned, organic, not just shock for its own sake. They even had Sansa say, "Have my sister brought" rather than "Bring my sister," or "Tell my sister to come." The only reason to say "Have my sister brought" is to imply that Arya is to be treated as, in effect, a prisoner. If we had seen Sansa's scene with Bran, we would have known who was in the dock. It was around S7 that A Show's intention moved toward shock and spectacle for its own sake. And sometimes even stopped making sense. But it's still the best thing on tv since "The Sopranos," and I'm still in mourning for it. <sniff> 5 Link to comment
Llywela May 24, 2019 Share May 24, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, janjan said: Yes, Llywela, you nailed it. I would just add another example of uncertainty, or maybe it's an example of change in intention. I was looking at some outtakes from A Show, now that we're no longer in danger of being sullied. One scene that was dropped was between Bran and Sansa in S7, where Bran lays out for her the litany of LF's deceptions and crimes. So she finally decides to execute him. Why was that scene deleted? I fear it was to set up a cheap twist. Sansa tells a servant, "Have my sister brought to the main hall," and we're invited to think, "Uh oh, she fell for LF's scheming and plans to condemn Arya." She even starts listing the indictment, and we still think it's of Arya, until she suddenly says, "How do you plead, Lord Baelish?" I remember thinking on first watch of that ep that that was unworthy of A Show. Yes! I'm still really annoyed by that - I feel like we could and should have had scenes of the sisters bonding for pretty much the first time in their lives, having been divided by their differences as children and then by the horrific circumstances into which they were flung. Yet we were robbed of any meaningful scenes of the sisters getting to know one another as adults, coming to appreciate one another and making plans together, primarily to support this shock twist! I still regret that. The deleted scene you describe would have been a nice bit of development for Bran, as well, showing him and Sansa working together. For the eventual king, he got shockingly little screentime or development! Edited May 24, 2019 by Llywela 4 Link to comment
Anothermi May 24, 2019 Share May 24, 2019 (edited) On 5/24/2019 at 7:59 AM, janjan said: It was around S7 that A Show's intention moved toward shock and spectacle for its own sake. And sometimes even stopped making sense. Thanks for sharing the out-take info. I, too, remember being annoyed by the feeling of being played just for shock value. Deliberately kept in the dark. Before that, those kind of twists came because of the vast number of forces at play and didn't need manipulation. Clearly a production decision to keep viewers attention (a main goal for show runners) but we'd become used to being treated more respectfully while our attention was engaged. ETA: "The deleted scene you describe would have been a nice bit of development for Bran, as well, showing him and Sansa working together. For the eventual king, he got shockingly little screentime or development!" Absolutely, Llywela, and thank you for your well argued post (above) regarding the diminished impact of Bran becoming the King. Once again, losing those hours from last season and this have not served the show or the viewers well. (can't find the button that would allow me to put your point in quotes!!) Edited May 28, 2019 by Anothermi 3 Link to comment
Llywela May 25, 2019 Share May 25, 2019 On 5/24/2019 at 6:29 PM, Anothermi said: Once again, losing those hours from last season and this have not served the show or the viewers well. Imagine if we'd had even just one more episode this season - filling the gap between Dany's assassination and the council in the Dragon Pit, say. Think how much material got glossed over there, and how easy it would be to fill. Did Jon just walk out of the throne room and confess to the first Unsullied he saw, or did they see Drogon flying off with Dany, realise something was up, and storm the room? How confused must those early hours and days have been - everyone still reacting to the devastating of King's Landing, and now this. Imagine how much negotiating Davos must have had to do, presumably arguing Grey Worm down from his immediate fury, sending ravens off to the rest of the allies, etc. With Jorah, Missandei and Dany all dead, was there even anyone left capable of communicating with the Dothraki? Because they would also be a problem. Arya was also in King's Landing - perhaps joining with Davos in defending Jon, arguing against immediate execution, no doubt threatening death to anyone who laid a hand on him. The gang up at Winterfell would have received word of the destruction of King's Landing first - react to the horror of it, fear for the loved ones they knew to be there, worry about what this might mean going forward, what Dany might do next...and then receive news of Dany's assassination and the arrest of both Tyrion and Jon. Perhaps here would have been a good opportunity to foreshadow Bran's elevation a little by showing him giving good council to the others, drawing on his knowledge of the past to demonstrate wisdom in the present (as he apparently did when designing his wheelchair). Brienne reacting to word of Jaime's death. The council being negotiated and organised, the journey there - and no doubt all kinds of awkwardness when all these leaders eventually came together. Fear and mistrust - King's Landing is held by foreign armies, can they be trusted, are we even safe to go there? Perhaps Yara might have been allowed some on-screen reaction to her brother's death, instead of just Dany's. And so on. There was just so very much meaningful character material to explore and it was all just skipped over to get to the resolution. Damn, we needed a longer season! 3 Link to comment
gingerella May 26, 2019 Share May 26, 2019 3 hours ago, Llywela said: Damn, we needed a longer season! We needed a longer TWO seasons! All that you mentioned would have been fantastic to take in, it's still unbelievable to me that the two main show runners bamboozled enough network folks to agree to two abbreviated seasons to wrap up the biggest show ever on TV. What.The.Fuck?!? Seriously. I still cannot believe it's not even been a full week since the finale. I'm still sorting out in my head what I saw last week. I think it's difficult to make sense of so much of it because of everything you guys have been saying above about so many story lines that have literally gone MIA and will never be resolved. 2 Link to comment
WhiteStumbler May 28, 2019 Share May 28, 2019 I am back from my trip abroad and successfully avoided any spoilers about the final episode, other than a screenshot of Sansa wearing a crown, which had me thinking that she would be on the Iron Throne at the end of the episode. Glad I was wrong about the one thing I thought was going to happen - Unsullied until the end! Here are the comments and questions (LOTS of questions) I wrote while watching… Nice visual of Tyrion walking past a bell lying in the streets of the ruined KL - a call back to their importance within the last episode and also to the image of the bell smashing down when Cersi blew up the sept of Baelor. BS on Tyrion finding Jamie’s golden hand in that huge pile of rubble, but Peter Dinklage was amazing there. I have to give the show credit for using a war crime as the means of ending Cersi, who has been one of the prime human antagonist since S1E1. Where did all those Dothraki come from? Where did all those Unsullied come from? I thought most of their forces were killed in the defense of Winterfell. Why doesn’t Dany list “defeating an army of the dead” from her list of the Unsullied and Dothraki accomplishments? A captive Tyrion, knowing that family is one of Jon’s pressure points, showed more cunning at the tail end of one scene then he has shown in the last two seasons. The conflict between Sansa and Dany felt contrived. Why wouldn’t Dany let go of The North - back in S6 she said… Dany: (Yara’s) not demanding, she's asking (for the freedom for the Iron Islands). The others are free to ask as well. Before it was revealed to be Drogon, did anyone else see the pile of rubble start to shift and think “Uh oh, is Jon about the fight Mountainstein”? I don’t understand why Jon was shown emphatically handing over his entire sword belt when entering the cell of a prisoner if he can then casually stroll down a hallway of Unsullied and into the presence of the Queen wearing Longclaw and a dagger - WTF?!? Why didn’t the Unsullied and/or the Dothraki kill Jon immediately when they found out Jon killed Dany? How did the Unsullied even find out Dany was dead and not off flying around on Drogon? Did Jon confess? If he did confess, was that the most Jon-like thing he had ever done? Did Dany ever actually sit on the Iron Throne, or was the scene with Jon her first time touching it? If it was her first time in the throne room, what was Dany doing while Tyrion was talking Jon into regicide? “What unites people? Stories.” Says the mouthpiece of professional storytellers. Tyrion asked who has a better story than Bran, and I thought "really? He’s like the least interesting Stark.” Who else there really knows whom they are electing? Why would any Houses besides Stark/Tully follow some checked-out, unemotional cypher who speaks in riddles? Nice to see Edmure and Robin sitting around, so they weren’t completely dropped from the narrative, but weird that everyone goes along with the suggestions of The Imp from the hated Lannister family. Bran the Broken seems sort of a cruel nickname, especially coming from Tyrion. Would he like it if he were called Shorty McScarface? What is the Nights Watch mandate now that the Free Folk are accepted as part of the realms of men and the White Walkers are extinct? Will they call Jon “Queenslayer“? How tragic is Jon, whose arc takes him from (once again) being willing to sacrifice his own life for the good of the realm to being exiled at the place where his fellow brothers literally killed him the last time he was there. Also, why did the Lord of Light bring Jon back at all? To kill Dany, the person that the followers of the Lord of Light thought was their chosen savior, the (gender neutral royal pronoun) Who Was Promised? Nice of Brienne to fill in the accomplishments of Jaime, the man who broke her heart. Pod gets knighted and made Kingsguard - cool! Brandon goes to "find Drogon” with his 3ER powers, and shows that he is just like every king before him that we have seen - more interested in something other than Small Council meetings. Robert was more interested in hunting boars and f@cking whores, “King“ Joffrey was more interested in torturing others, and Tommen was more interested in Margaery. Ironically, the ruler we saw actually involved in ruling the most was Cersi. I love that the lining on the sleeves of Sansa’s dress were of red weirwood tree leaves on a gray fabric. Nice touch. I also love the wolf figurehead on Arya‘s boat and the Stark sigil on her sails. Up until the end, A Show looked amazing. With the Starks scattering, will there even be a House Stark after Bran is dead? Questions Never Answered… Why do seasons last years? If winter is somehow associated with the Night King, will winter ever come again? Will the Starks then need new words? Who/what was the voice Varys heard from the flames? What does happen when you bring a jackass and a honeycomb into a brothel? Hard to believe that the series would fade to black for the last time and I wouldn’t have a hint of a tear in my eye. Now I will turn towards what you, my loyal brethren on this journey, thought. 3 Link to comment
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