S08.E03: The Long Night

[Athena]

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Episode Synopsis:

Arya looks to prove her worth as a fighter.

[DirewolfPup]

The night is dark and full of terrors.

[DirewolfPup]

A lot of what was predicted has come to pass. The NK re-animated the dead including those in the crypts. The scenes were so dark, I have a hard time knowing who made it and who didn't. Perhaps it's my old TV, but I couldn't see much of what was going on. Those that I know we lost:

Jorah Mormont

Melisandre "The Red Woman"

Dolorous Edd

Lyanna Mormont

Theon Greyjoy

Beric Dondarrion

RIP to all our brave soldiers. They all died honorably and with great purpose.

Those I didn't see the final fate of:

Ghost

Grey Worm

Missandei

Gilly

Baby Sam

2nd dragon that isn't Drogon

Podrick

Gendry

If someone could reassure me that all my list of unknowns are all alive and well... that would help me sleep.

[Pallas]

The One Where Knifey Saves the World!!!

And we Unsullied knew him when he was just a little shaver...

[Pallas]

That was terrific. The military tactics were odd -- why not just strafe the dead army with dragonfire before they come anywhere near the humans? -- but hey. Meanwhile, I think your list of missing is accurate, Pup. For now, I'm assuming that any named character who we didn't see killed and reanimated has survived.

Lady Lyanna, the Giant-Killer. Ghost leading the charge with the (doomed) Dothraki was poignant, like Robb's wolf loping ahead of the Stark banners as they neared The Twins. I was of course relieved to see A Show not be a dick to a few of the horses -- and have the good taste to prove me wrong about the return of many beloved departed, including Benjen and Summer. And just no to Ghost Ghost.  

[walnutqueen]

SUCH an intense episode.  My arms & legs are actually weak from the adrenaline rush.  About 15 minutes in, my Babalu kitty was so concerned about me he stood on my lap meowing and touching m face with his paw until I took a breather and calmed myself by petting him.  He stayed with me throughout the ordeal, making sure I didn't stroke out.  He has no idea that his favorite part of Sunday evenings- me spanking a drum solo to the opening theme song - will soon be over.  :~(

For once, I was not bitching about the poor lighting; I didn't WANT to see a lot of the carnage.

The losses were tragic, but not unexpected.  I was actually surprised that so many of the main characters survived, and relieved that it wasn't another Red Wedding scenario.

So much more to digest, but I am wiped out.

[gingerella]

Holy.Fucking.Shit. That was the most fucking intense piece of TV or film I have ever witnessed. I am still shaking. I don't really drink but I have some wine in the fridge and I had to take three huge slugs just to be able to stop my hands from shaking enough to type something, anything.

@DirewolfPup, your death pool list above is correct from what I could see, but we need to add all the Dothraki (RIP Great Stallion in the sky). And your MIA Milk Carton Gang list above is same as mine and @Pallas's, sorry I can't be of help but I'm sure others can assist us in processing what we just saw, or we'll know next week, not that that's any consolation.

I sat in the dark as terrified as if I was there in real life, and I appreciated that we had a lot of blurred movement and smoke obscuring the details of what was going on because let's face it, it's pretty obvious what was coming and we didn't need to see every freaking detail and the blurry, smokiness felt very real, like what a real battle like that would be like if A Viewer was there, so kudos to the direction, well done, and that's coming from someone who has always had an issue with the past cartoon-ness of the wights/WWs/NK stuff.

Well done us with the new credits focusing on what's going on down below in the crypts of Winterfell. I was poo pooing the rising of the crypt dead but I was dead wrong (sorry but it was too easy to not say that!). I loved the quiet when Sansa and Tyrion were hiding behind that stone, waiting to make their next move. Those two...I lerve them and I loved that moment in the midst of such terror and unlikely odds.

When Mel lit the Dothraki scythes in flames I literally was like "fuck YEAH, let's DO this!" I didn't understand though, why she didn't lit the spears of the Unsullied while she was at it. And I also agree with Pallas, I don't get why they didn't send the dragons ahead to torch the AotD before they sent out their first line. I was wondering if someone was going to get itchy trigger fingers and start the attach sooner than needed, but man, when the lights slowly died out in the Dothraki front line, it was eerie as hell. Didn't Jorah ride out with them, and Ghost was along side him as well? I know we didn't see Ghost again, but Jorah came back, or did he not ride out with the Dothraki? I can't believe that Ghost would be dead at this point because A Show seems to like A Viewer to know when a direwolf is down, so I'm betting on Ghostie Boy to be alive and I hope we learn this next week.

Theon lived his entire life to hear someone, and a Stark he'd wronged no less, tell him he was "a good man". We knew he'd bite it in this battle, but the way he went out was glorious for his character.  We always knew he was a superb bowman, but to outlast everyone who was sent to guard and protect Bran was just amazing. Theon was well and truly back as an honorary Stark and that meant everything to him, and to A Viewer. Thank you Show, for that nugget.

Arya motherfucking Stark? Can I get an AMEN?!! When Mel said, "and what do we say to the god of death?" And they both said, "Not today...", in my head I yelled, 'SYRIOS , yessssss!' I thought she was headed to the Godswood but by the time the NK arrived with his posse of blue eyed creepers, I'd figured she was otherwise detained elsewhere in the castle walls, so when she leaped out of nowhere it was so perfect, and when she dropped Knifey!, my heart sank but somewhere within my brain I had small thought trying to whisper, "yeah but it doesn't make sense if Bran dies so..." and then BAM!  I see a hand reach out and grab Knifey! and shove it right into the NK, and I literally yelled YEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! I never in a million years thought that it would Arya who killed the NK unless she had stolen a WWs face, if that's even possible which I doubt it is, so it was just thrilling to see that scene.

Oh my god, so much more to say but I need to take another swig of wine to steady meself...

ETA: R.I.P. Lady Lyanna Mormont, a true warrior and the pride of Bear Island. Her felling that zomboni giant was amazing...I hope a distant tale that takes place 5000 years from then, people will tell the tale of the Littlest Badass Warrior of the dark night war.

Edited April 29, 2019 by gingerella

[walnutqueen]

7 minutes ago, gingerella said:

I don't really drink but I have some wine in the fridge and I had to take three huge slugs just to be able to stop my hands from shaking enough to type something, anything.

I picked the wrong time to quit drinking!   ;~)

But seriously, I really do feel like I need a shot of restorative brandy or something.  Where is that damned St. Bernard when you really need him?  My cat is useless for fetching me drinks, and I'm too shaken to drive the few blocks to the liquor store.

That scene between Sansa and Tyrion was everything.

[gingerella]

1 hour ago, walnutqueen said:

He stayed with me throughout the ordeal, making sure I didn'tstroke out.

Ha, you and me both sister! I had to calm my nerves by forcing myself to watch American Idol, and I can still feel the Adrenalin...Oy. 

When Mel said, Valor Morghoulis to Grey Worm, I wondered why they exchanged a Braavosi greeting in that moment? I get the meaning and the moment, but they’ve never met before that moment have they? I thought she fled Dragonstone as their ships were arriving with the Dany Gang? Also, are we to infer they’re both originally from Braavos or am I forgetting/missing something? Speaking of Mel, because she used the Braavosi greeting to Grey Worm, and she used Syria’s Forell’s line to Arya, “ And what do we say to death?”, are we to infer that Mel is Syrios, or is Mel really one of the faceless men? I know she is a witch of sorts, but she twice in this episode uses phrases associated with Braavosi, and not just Braavosi, but with the Faceless Men of Braavosi. So, what’s up with that? I know, she’s gone, but A Viewer ponders..

Given that Dany went into battle literally moments after learning Jon’s true parentage and identity, I felt her grief as Jorah died was exponentially devastating. It was as if all the love she had felt for Jorah and pushed away all those years, suddenly engulfed her in a huge wave, and she realized how much she loved him and how much she’d just lost - he was her protector in so many of her darkest hours, she trusted him completely, he was not a thread to her cause, and now he was gone. That scene really got to me, but the A Show JERKS me into another direction and A Viewer doesn’t have long to linger on any emotion tonight with the exception of terror, see: Night is dark and full of.

So many thoughts rolling around in my head right now. I feel as though I have come through the dark night of battle too. Speaking of, our protagonists still have three episodes to resolve this Iron Throne situation and they’re numbers are decimated, how will they make it against the tongueless Iron Born and the Golden Army or whatever they’re called from Braavos, yes? I wonder if Arya has any sway with the Braavosi as a Faceless woMan?

[janjan]

12 hours ago, DirewolfPup said:

The scenes were so dark, I have a hard time knowing who made it and who didn't. Perhaps it's my old TV, but I couldn't see much of what was going on.

No, Pup, it's not your tv. I watched it on a fairly new, very large HDTV (would you believe a friend *gave* it to me when he bought an even snazzier one?), and I couldn't make out much of what was happening. Talk about fog of war, and at night, no less!

If Ghost doesn't come back, I'm gonna be pissed.

[DirewolfPup]

1 hour ago, janjan said:

No, Pup, it's not your tv. I watched it on a fairly new, very large HDTV (would you believe a friend *gave* it to me when he bought an even snazzier one?), and I couldn't make out much of what was happening. Talk about fog of war, and at night, no less!

If Ghost doesn't come back, I'm gonna be pissed.

Thank you for the reassurances, Janjan. I need more friends like yours.

The foggy/fuzziness was probably chosen to replicate actual war at night as well as save some of their CGI budget. Still, it would have been nice to light the inside Winterfell bits a bit better. Couldn't tell if dirt/blood covered Gendry or Podrick was a dead person or not. It was easy to tell when we saw Tormund, Jamie, Sam, and Brienne. They're pretty unique in the landscape of the dead. Even Greyworm had to keep taking his helmet off for A Viewer to know that it was him.

[Pallas]

14 hours ago, gingerella said:

When Mel said, Valor Morghoulis to Grey Worm, I wondered why they exchanged a Braavosi greeting in that moment? I get the meaning and the moment, but they’ve never met before that moment have they? I thought she fled Dragonstone as their ships were arriving with the Dany Gang?

Valor Morghoulis is Valyrian, the Latin or lingua franca of the East.  We've heard it used across the continent for purposes ranging from trade to religion to dragon prompts. The formal expression Valor Morghoulis has been intoned by other characters outside of Braavos, or the House of Black and White. 

I'm still not clear on the relationship between Death-the-God cited by Syrio; the God of Death and the Red God cited by Jaqen; and the Red God and the Lord of Light cited by Melisadnre. But in this context -- between two people from Essos, in the moments before a battle waged against death in the far north of Westeros --  I took the greeting as a kind of wry, "Small world" along with, "See you on the other side."  

"Not today." Upon first meeting Arya, it seems, Melisandre not only recognized her but foresaw pieces of her future. By the time she sees Arya again inside Winterfell, she seems to have received Arya's whole story before it happened: that Beric was repeatedly brought back in order to one day -- today -- save Arya. And why.  

Melisandre paid call on Dany at Dragonstone to put in a good word for Jon Snow. But she left before Jon and Davos set foot on shore there, with good reason she didn't want to confide in Varys, another fellow Easterner. Though she did volunteer that both she and Varys were destined to die "in this strange land." 

14 hours ago, gingerella said:

Given that Dany went into battle literally moments after learning Jon’s true parentage and identity, I felt her grief as Jorah died was exponentially devastating

That's so true. Jorah was the fulfillment of a childhood fantasy of chivalric devotion (at least, the fantasy young Dany was fed by her elders and manipulators). A fulfillment so different from how Sansa experienced her own. Though not entirely, in the end, in the person of Brienne. 

[Anothermi]

Well, as someone who isn't a big fan of battle sequences, this Show has managed to impress me with each of the Big ones. Standing O for this one. And it went on for a loooong time! I kept checking the clock to see if there was time to lose another character. (and hoped there wasn't)

The interminable waiting to see the enemy at the beginning really ramped up the tension. Geez. As if my neck and shoulders aren't tight enough!  I kept thinking of the soldiers in the 1st World War, for some reason, in a number of scenes - including once the NK brought the storm/fog. Fighting blind. It's not that old in warfare. I almost expected to see allies accidentally killing each other out of sheer terror and lack of ability to distinguish the dead from the living. (At one point Arya stabbed a couple of creatures that spewed a reddish coloured liquid from their wounds.)

OF COURSE the Dothraki led the charge - and few returned - always the go to for expendable (even before the Wildlings who are also members of the Expendable League).

For the Dothraki, this was nothing like the Westerosi armies they'd scoffed at (and easily bested) in the south. At least they were able to take out a few zombonies with their fire swords. Thanks, Mel, they were worst than cannon fodder without your help! And it gave me a moment of feeling uplifted which was sorely needed.

I also appreciated not seeing their horses decimated but being allowed to see that some horses escaped. But, with the endless stream of dead to contend with, being astride anything wasn't much of an advantage on the ground (see how few seconds it took Drogon to be overwhelmed).

16 hours ago, gingerella said:

When Mel said, Valor Morghoulis to Grey Worm, I wondered why they exchanged a Braavosi greeting in that moment?

2 hours ago, Pallas said:

I took the greeting as a kind of wry, "Small world" along with, "See you on the other side."  

Pallas explained the "why?" but I felt that greeting was at it's most appropriate in that moment - for both Melissandre and Grey Worm. Mel: Valor Morghulis - all men must die... Grey Worm: Valor Dohaeris - all men must serve.

It was great to see Ghost out there charging - even surging ahead of Jorah's horse! I didn't quite understand why Ghost was with Jorah and the Dothraki. He didn't have experience with either did he? Perhaps he naturally gravitated to the fiercest fighters (Dothraki) and the most (ahem) dogged (Jorah). On second thought, perhaps Ghost felt that if Jon had Jorah's family sword with a wolf handle (and was on a dragon anyway) he should join Jorah as HIS wolf handle - with a mouth full of sharp blades at the ready. Fair trade. Ghost always did have a mind of his own, but one that was in sync with Jon's.

And YES to all who subscribe to A Show's convention that if a main character is not seen to die - they did NOT die.

Will have to add more later.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Anothermi

[Llywela]

WELL THAT WAS VERY INTENSE, FLIPPING HECK!

[gingerella]

20 minutes ago, Llywela said:

WELL THAT WAS VERY INTENSE, FLIPPING HECK!

Ha, you think?!? The Long Night indeed...!

ETA:

RE: Knifey! Arya gave Sansa a dagger before she sent her below to the crypts, but was that a standard issue dragon glass dagger? Because I assume it was Knifey! that Arya used to kill the NK, right? Maybe it was an extra dragon glass dagger from Gendry?

I was sort of bummed out that Sam refused to go into the crypts and ended up having to be saved so many damn times. Duuuude, you may have killed a WW once, but let's consider it a fluke and know your skill set, which aint fighting against the dead. Eeesh!

I could barely watch the scene when the already-dead busted out of their crypts...did they kill a lot of the folks down there? It wasn't clear how that little group of Varys, Tyrion, Sansa, et al managed to stay out of harms way. It seemed like if the zombonis don't actually see you, they just lumber by? That's what I was thinking given the scene with Arya and the library or wherever she was with the zombonis lumbering around bumping into shit. That brought a very brief comical relief, short lived though it was.

Edited April 30, 2019 by gingerella

[janjan]

What are they gonna do with all the dead wights? WWs shatter, but wights just lie there and don't rot away. ("No smell," as Sam observed of the dead ones at Castle Black.) Not to mention all the dead humans. RIP but, er, yuck!

Mel will probably blow away in the wind. Quick! Somebody go get that necklace!

Best scene: When Dany was crying over dead Jorah, Drogon came down and folded his wing over her. Awww.

Runner up: Sansa and Tyrion taking each other's hand as they waited for doom.

Oh ok, Arya leaping down on NK will go down in history! You go, Girl!

She didn't use a stolen face. They're probably saving that for when she offs Cersei. You heard it here.

[Anothermi]

4 hours ago, gingerella said:

Arya gave Sansa a dagger before she sent her below to the crypts, but was that a standard issue dragon glass dagger?

I figured out it was just a standard dragon glass blade when Sansa brought it out for Tyrion to see, when they were hiding behind the concrete tomb in the crypt. The scene when Arya gave it to Sansa was as dark as most of the other scenes, so I initially thought Arya gave Sansa Knifey! and I thought she'd lost her mind. But she hadn't. She had armed herself with flaming arrows, Valerian steel AND a back up dragon glass short knife. Handing the one over to Sansa wasn't the best idea, but better than not arming her at all.

Now, I wonder where her specialty, self-designed weapon is?  And when it is going to make an appearance? It better not have been a ploy to get Gendry in the I mean ON the sack(s). That would really annoy me.

4 hours ago, gingerella said:

I was sort of bummed out that Sam refused to go into the crypts and ended up having to be saved so many damn times.

I couldn't, and still can't, remember where it was shown that he was expected to go into the crypt. However, I DO remember the scene where he made the decision to stay out and fight. I loved the Sam/ Edd interactions around that (even though that decision resulted in Edd's demise). When Sam joined Beric, Tormund, Celgane and Edd, Edd looked at him and just said "What took you so long?”

I'm sorry that Edd bought it in this battle. He really grew on me. I don't think he was initially part of Jon's little band of don't-fits (Sam, Pyp, Gren) but seemed to start being one of them after their experiences at the Fist of the First Men.  And for some inexplicable reason I'm thinking that if Ned hadn't beheaded him, Last-to-Die (from S01E01) may have been part of that merry band as well. Well, except that Benjen said he was a good ranger, so he wouldn't have been there very long. (/end of nostalgic flight of fancy)

So... back to your point, Ging. Agreed that Sam needs more self knowledge because it was one thing to cower behind a rock at/near the Fist of the First Men - and be (metaphorically) thrown back as not good enough for the army of the dead! - and another to zone out in the middle of a battle where everyone is fair game.

It's interesting that Clegane was also immobilized by fear, like Sam, but when he overcame his fear he, at least, was an effective fighter and didn't need a body guard. (Sorry Sam).

4 hours ago, gingerella said:

could barely watch the scene when the already-dead busted out of their crypts.

I wish they hadn't done that. I know I also spitballed that the show runners would resort to it, but it took me out of the scene a little bit. The dead were not the newly dead Starks- who might have been horribly recognizable- but ancient, anonymous ones that were likely decomposed into bits, but they came out all attached anyhow - with fishing line? or something? I kept peering at the dark forms trying to recognize some former Stark. It would have make a better scene for me if the zombonies from outside had found a way in - like they did at the tree of the TER.

And on a slightly different topic. I wondered if A Show let some of the main character actors be cameo Wights for these scenes. I wonder that because the wight who heard the blood drip from Arya's head in the library looked all the world (to me) like a curly haired Theon (Alfie Allen). Sometimes I thought I recognized other actors too, in cameo zomboni close-ups. Anyone else? Just me?

Edited May 1, 2019 by Anothermi
typos

[Anothermi]

2 minutes ago, janjan said:

Best scene: When Dany was crying over dead Jorah, Drogon came down and folded his wing over her. Awww.

^^YES to THIS^^   I was positively purring with "what a good dragon you are. Yes you are. Your a sweet dragon. Your such a good little dragon."

(and of course AWWWWW)

[gingerella]

1 hour ago, Anothermi said:

^^YES to THIS^^   I was positively purring with "what a good dragon you are. Yes you are. Your a sweet dragon. Your such a good little dragon."

(and of course AWWWWW)

It’s funny how’s there were some very teensy tiny moments of levity in what was an emotionally exhausting episode. But even that wight who bent down to look under the table where Arya had been hiding, it was almost humorous because the zomboni had a funny expression. 

@Anothermi, you mentioned where Arya’s special weapon was, IIRC, didn’t Gendry make her a dragon glass-tipped fighting spear (was it double ended?) and didn’t she use it a lot during the fighting scenes? I maybe thinking of someone else since t was hard to see at time,ps, but I thought she was kicking ass and taking names with that dragon glass stick. 

[Anothermi]

Of course there might be another reason Drogon was cuddling up to Dany...

he's now an only child  <RIP Rhaegal> and needs solace as well.

Although we knew the dragons were likely to have to face down their brother, I have to assume neither of them knew their brother Viserion was now the enemy. Rhaegal fought bravely and managed to find a place to put Jon down safely (i.e. not letting him drop from a great height). Brave and noble beast. Apparently taking after his name sake.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Anothermi
spelling

[gingerella]

I wasn’t not sure if Rhaegal was dead or no this to be honest. Did they actually show him dead? If not, I hold out hope, for both Rhagael and Ghost...

[WhiteStumbler]

I have been out of town on a business trip. I had to watch this in a hotel room on a meh TV and no ability to pause or rewind (which SUCKED), but I wanted to swing by when I had a non-working moment to say how much I thought this episode ROCKED. It was horrifying and thrilling and emotional in all the best ways. All of the time Arya spent in Braavos, all of the time she spent erasing her Stark identity and then finding her way back to it, all of those interminable "training" sessions at the House of B&W, all of it was all worth it because Arya SAVED the WORLD! WITH KNIFEY!!

I still can't believe that episode. I am just itching to re-watch it, and stoked to see what happens next. I thought the Doomed Charge of the Dothraki was visually wonderful and the first of many gut punches. I thought it was very much in-character for them to charge into the storm, since they had swept aside every other obstacle in Westeros since arriving and had no fear of death. The flaming scythes flickering out in clumps was my first notion that this might all go horribly wrong (and a nice way to avoid the added complication of using horses in a battle scene that looked mostly shot at night). I loved the beats between Sansa and Tyrion in the crypt. Their children would be the smartest damn people in Westeros. I loved the fact that Jorah got the death that would have been his FIRST choice out of all the possible deaths in the world. I love that we know now why Berrick kept being brought back - to save Arya. Mel's job was to remind Arya of her fortune telling from all those years ago - "eyes you will close forever: brown eyes, green eyes, blue eyes". And then Mel went even further into Arya's past and somehow knew to ask Arya "what do we say to the god of death?", when the God of Death was knocking at the gates. Theon became Theon again, and the last bit of penance owed for all he did to the Starks was paid. The littlest fighter, Lyanna, stabbed a zomboni giant in the eye! Just amazing scene after amazing scene.

I do find myself questioning some of the strategic decisions, like having the non-warriors hiding in a place full of dead folks that it totally going to be safe when a creature whose entire power comes from his ability to raise the dead shows up - what could go wrong?!? I had a hard time tracking what was going on there, but I trust that Headless Zombie Ned was not one of the creatures crawling out of their grave. Can't wait to see how they resolve the battle against Cersei - after dealing with with the Night King, it seems hard to care about who sits upon the Iron Throne, but there it is in the title of A Show.

Edited May 2, 2019 by WhiteStumbler
repetition

[Llywela]

When the episode ended, all I could think was how hard the clean-up is going to be for the survivors! Also, that I hope Sansa's carefully managed food stores weren't too hard hit, because damn but those traumatised survivors are going to need a good meal!

Also on my mind, the way A Show is slowly but systematically wiping out bloodline after bloodline - the Baratheons, the Tyrells, the Martells, the Umbers, the Freys, now the Mormonts. So very many old ruling families have been completely destroyed by these years of war. And that ties up with questions we were pondering the other week, about what is going on in some of these areas now that their ruling houses are gone and what kind of government Westeros is going to develop going forward? Will it return to the old ways, with new ruling houses rising up to fill the vacuum? Or is the board being swept for something new, in the wake of all the bloodshed?

The other thing that kept running through my mind during the episode was Jon's journey through the seasons, which was also the mechanism by which Westeros in general was made aware of the awful reality of the army of the dead. I kept flashing back to season one and Jon's first arrival at The Wall and how no one really knew there was anything more terrible beyond it than Wildlings - and then look where we are now!

1 hour ago, Anothermi said:

he's now an only child  <RIP Rhaegal> and needs solace as well.

Did the dragon die then? I don't remember seeing it die, although it did drop Jon, in the throes of battle.

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

you mentioned where Arya’s special weapon was, IIRC, didn’t Gendry make her a dragon glass-tipped fighting spear (was it double ended?) and didn’t she use it a lot during the fighting scenes? I maybe thinking of someone else since t was hard to see at time,ps, but I thought she was kicking ass and taking names with that dragon glass stick. 

Yes, Arya was using the weapon Gendry made her when she was fighting up on the battlements, before she was overwhelmed and had to run for it. She also definitely gave Sansa a dragonglass dagger, I noticed particularly because it made me wonder just how many weapons she had secreted about her person!

So many character journeys came to a head here, I could be here all day talking about it, but have to run and get ready for work - more later!

[Llywela]

Sorry for double post, but I have a bit of time now to reflect and read back through the thread.

On 4/29/2019 at 6:00 PM, DirewolfPup said:

The foggy/fuzziness was probably chosen to replicate actual war at night as well as save some of their CGI budget. Still, it would have been nice to light the inside Winterfell bits a bit better. Couldn't tell if dirt/blood covered Gendry or Podrick was a dead person or not. It was easy to tell when we saw Tormund, Jamie, Sam, and Brienne. They're pretty unique in the landscape of the dead. Even Greyworm had to keep taking his helmet off for A Viewer to know that it was him.

I was constantly torn between being annoyed/nervous about not being able to see what was going on, and being glad I couldn't make out any detail! I figured if it was truly important to the story for us to know who was involved in any particular sequence, A Show would make it clear, so if the action was vague and murky then it also didn't involve anyone important.

On 4/29/2019 at 10:06 PM, Pallas said:

Melisandre paid call on Dany at Dragonstone to put in a good word for Jon Snow. But she left before Jon and Davos set foot on shore there, with good reason she didn't want to confide in Varys, another fellow Easterner. Though she did volunteer that both she and Varys were destined to die "in this strange land." 

Melisandre's role in this episode and through the last 7 seasons of the show is intriguing - the constant conflict between the reality of her visions and her struggle to accurately interpret them. She has known for a long time that this battle was coming, but only in the vaguest terms. She has been trying to prepare as best she could, but based on massively incomplete information which was then further skewed by her own religious biases (I am still horrified when I think about Shireen, and everyone else Mel had Stannis burn alive). She knew that a prince was 'promised' but did not know who that was, so attached herself to the most likely prospect - until another, more likely came along. And so on. She foresaw something of Arya's role, but not enough to make sense of until all the pieces finally came together in this battle. And she knew that she herself had a role to play, and was utterly committed to playing that role, kept herself alive long enough to carry it through. She seemed to crumble into dust at the end there - makes me want to know more about her story, where she came from, who she was, and just how old she actually was!

And let us note that her prediction of Varys's demise is yet to come to fruition - no doubt that is still to come, then!

Side note, but I really loved the little sequence of the Unsullied forming a human shield for Mel to go out and light the trenches, when all else had failed. Full marks to Grey Worm for making it happen - he'd seen what she did for the Dothraki, saw her again inside the castle, put the pieces together, and acted on it!

On 4/30/2019 at 12:30 AM, Anothermi said:

OF COURSE the Dothraki led the charge - and few returned - always the go to for expendable (even before the Wildlings who are also members of the Expendable League).

I feel really bad for the Dothraki - have done ever since they stopped having any POV representatives in the main cast, in fact. They never had many, but once upon a time there were named Dothraki among Dany's inner circle, representatives of their wider warrior army, individuals whose demise we could care about. Without that, they were just so much cannon fodder, and so very far from their grassland home. 😞

16 hours ago, gingerella said:

I was sort of bummed out that Sam refused to go into the crypts and ended up having to be saved so many damn times. Duuuude, you may have killed a WW once, but let's consider it a fluke and know your skill set, which aint fighting against the dead. Eeesh!

14 hours ago, Anothermi said:

So... back to your point, Ging. Agreed that Sam needs more self knowledge because it was one thing to cower behind a rock at/near the Fist of the First Men - and be (metaphorically) thrown back as not good enough for the army of the dead! - and another to zone out in the middle of a battle where everyone is fair game.

Now, I am going to argue a counterpoint here, and rally to the defence of our Samwell. I only saw him being saved in the middle of the battle once. You know who else got into trouble in the middle of the battle and had to be saved by someone else? Jon. Dany. Arya. There was also lifesaving between Jaime and Brienne but I forget which way round it was. And so on, there were other examples too. My point is: it was a devastating, brutal battle, and lots of people got into trouble during it and needed their allies to come to their rescue. Does it suck that Edd was killed saving Sam's life? Yes. Was that Sam's fault? No, no more than it was Dany's fault Jorah was killed as a result of saving her life. Both Edd and Jorah made a choice when they saw someone they cared about in trouble. I've no doubt both would make the same choice again.

Sam also wasn't the only one to zone out in the middle of the battle - the Hound did the same thing, and he's a seasoned, hardened warrior. I didn't see it as a weakness on either of their parts, but as a sign of very real human frailty, evidence of just how horrific a situation they found themselves in. And then the last we saw of Sam - when Jon ran past and very notably didn't stop to help - he was in trouble, yes, but he was still alive and still fighting. In exactly the same position, in fact, as other notable warriors like Jaime, Brienne, Grey Worm, and so on, who were also in trouble but still alive and still fighting the last we saw of them. Sam was also shown killing lots and lots of zombonis, fighting tooth and nail. He was needed on the battlefield. Every possible warrior was needed, from the skilled to the unskilled.

And finally - Sam really wouldn't have been any safer in the crypt, given the givens! Damn, but I knew it wasn't a good idea to stash all the civilians in a crypt full of old bones when fighting an enemy capable of raising the dead to fight for his team! Then again, where else could the beleagured Defenders of Winterfell have put them, under siege as they were? There quite literally was nowhere safe to hide.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Llywela

[Anothermi]

9 hours ago, Llywela said:

Did the dragon die then? I don't remember seeing it die, although it did drop Jon, in the throes of battle.

I remember Jon & Rhaegal flying in the blinding fog and being hit by another dragon (like when Jon & Dany first lost each other in the fog) but when he squinted to see if it was Dany he saw the NK instead. The bloody air battle ensued and I remember Rhaegal landing in water (where the heck did that come from?) but close enough to shore to allow Jon to get off. I may have assumed Rhaegal's death due to never seeing him again - even after the battle. Guess I forgot the Rules of A Show. It the death is not shown? It wasn't a death.

I just had a very strong impression that I witnessed Rhaegal's demise. I'm going to have to rewatch that part.

3 hours ago, Llywela said:

Then again, where else could the beleagured Defenders of Winterfell have put them, under siege as they were? There quite literally was nowhere safe to hide.

It's true that the crypt was probably the best place for those not fit to fight. But it seemed to me that some of them should have been armed with dragonglass weapons. Tyrion? Even little Shireen clone could have done some damage. I'm going to have to hand wave that there wasn't enough dragonglass weapons to have some "stored", in effect, down in the crypt. 

Also, Bran knew of the Night King's ability to raise the dead from graves but he said nothing. He really takes the broader view doesn't he.

15 hours ago, gingerella said:

@Anothermi, you mentioned where Arya’s special weapon was, IIRC, didn’t Gendry make her a dragon glass-tipped fighting spear (was it double ended?) and didn’t she use it a lot during the fighting scenes? I maybe thinking of someone else since t was hard to see at time,ps, but I thought she was kicking ass and taking names with that dragon glass stick. 

Thanks @gingerella.  I did half a re-watch but hadn't got to that part yet. (I've got to space it out. Too much intensity to sit through it all at once again)

[WhiteStumbler]

18 hours ago, Llywela said:

Also on my mind, the way A Show is slowly but systematically wiping out bloodline after bloodline - the Baratheons, the Tyrells, the Martells, the Umbers, the Freys, now the Mormonts.

A Show has been relentless about killing off noble houses. It is symptomatic of how costly the wars have been on The North that, at the start of S8 three of the named houses in The North were led by children (Umber, Karstark, and Mormont) and the preeminent house, Stark, was led by a teenager (Sansa).

Also extinguished are House Bolton (good riddance), and the Tullys of Riverrun are questionable (no intel on what happened to Edmure, his wife, and his baby in the dungeons of The Twins after Arya slaughtered the Freys). House Baratheon is guttering, but it isn't entirely extinguished - Dany could make Gendry a legitimate Baratheon, as Ramsay was made a legitimate Bolton and as Stannis offered to make Jon Snow into Jon Stark. There is just one (weak) Arryn left alive.
 

18 hours ago, Llywela said:

I kept flashing back to season one and Jon's first arrival at The Wall and how no one really knew there was anything more terrible beyond it than Wildlings

And grumpkins and snarks.
 

18 hours ago, Llywela said:

Yes, Arya was using the weapon Gendry made her when she was fighting up on the battlements

That was badass.
 

12 hours ago, Llywela said:

My point is: it was a devastating, brutal battle, and lots of people got into trouble during it and needed their allies to come to their rescue.

And it is a very good point. I just wish Sam had been given a job that was more in line with his strengths by someone who knew him. Like, maybe his best friend, Jon. I will miss Edd, and always remember this from Crasters (after the defeat at the Fist of the First Men)...

Grenn: When people talk about the Night's Watch, they never mention the shoveling.
Edd: Or the shit.
Grenn: They tell you about honor, pardoning crimes, and protecting the realm, but shoveling really is most of it.
Edd: And getting attacked or killed or worse.
Grenn: And that. But when you're not getting attacked or killed, usually you're shoveling.
Edd: Oh, look. More shit. I was starting to wonder what to do with the rest of me day.

 

8 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I may have assumed Rhaegal's death due to never seeing him again - even after the battle. Guess I forgot the Rules of A Show. It the death is not shown? It wasn't a death.

I think I assumed that there was one dragon left, and that Jon would discover dead Ghost surrounded by dead zombonis in the next episode - but now I have hope!

[janjan]

20 minutes ago, WhiteStumbler said:

I think I assumed that there was one dragon left, and that Jon would discover dead Ghost surrounded by dead zombonis in the next episode - but now I have hope!

< sprinkles fairy dust >   C'mon, Tinkerbell. Find them!!   < sprinkles more fairy dust >

[Anothermi]

3 hours ago, WhiteStumbler said:

And it is a very good point. I just wish Sam had been given a job that was more in line with his strengths by someone who knew him. Like, maybe his best friend, Jon. I will miss Edd, and always remember this from Crasters (after the defeat at the Fist of the First Men)...

You may be a Stumbler, but you have dead (pun intended) accurate aim when hunting for some of the best quotes! By 3 (or was it 4) of the Seven, I dub thee Ser Kentucky Fried Hound. Even when you arrive late? You come bearing gifts (sometimes gifs too). Lots of our faves required rescuing but Edd died because he helped Sam up.

Having said that, Edd treated Sam like a regular member of the Night's Watch and expected as much from him. Like Bran did for Theon, Edd gave Samwell the dignity he deserves, so I cede to Llywela's well reasoned arguments. Sam WAS better placed on the battle line than in the crypt. And Story-wise, Edd becomes someone the bards (should) remember in song. (Now is the time to bring in Ed Sheeran don't you think?)

ETA: forgot to add that Sam had been derided by (whichever fuck face it was - Thorne?) for only being good as food beyond the Wall - or in any battle. Sam took that to heart and this battle showed he was as good as any other fighter. Certainly as good as that guy who Davos told they even needed HIM so he needed to go get a weapon. Sam just wanted to be an ordinary male. And he is in one way. But he's extraordinary in many other ways.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Anothermi
Extoling Sam's virtues & spelling Ser right

[WhiteStumbler]

1 hour ago, Anothermi said:

By 3 (or was it 4) of the Seven, I dub thee Sir Kentucky Fried Hound.

It would be wrong to respond with anything except "I'm no Ser." 😉

[gingerella]

I too cede to the Sam arguement put forth by @Llywela. &

One issue I have with the last episode is that after alllllllll the time spent on the NK and WWs et al, we never hear from the NK about anything other than Bran saying ‘he wants to erase the history of mankind forever.’ It seems like we should have gotten more explanation. I don’t know...Zmaybe it’s coming this weekend and Bran will fill in some more blanks...it just seems weird that suddenly all the WWs, NK, AotD stuff is finished just.like.that. I mean, doesn’t anyone find it odd that the NK, master of Winter, can be torched by Drogon and nothing happens to him? Why? I’d like to know why...

Edited May 2, 2019 by gingerella

[janjan]

9 hours ago, gingerella said:

it just seems weird that suddenly all the WWs, NK, AotD stuff is finished just.like.that.

Dramatic necessity, I'd guess. They're in a hurry to wrap it all up, so they just tossed away the thing that has been the major plot point since the opening scene of S1E1 -- i.e., while mere mortals squabble over who gets to sit on a big chair, they're oblivious to something cosmic that is bearing inexorably down on them. And then suddenly it isn't. Oh.

I, too, found it kind of unsatisfying.

9 hours ago, gingerella said:

I mean, doesn’t anyone find it odd that the NK, master of Winter, can be torched by Drogon and nothing happens to him? Why? I’d like to know why... 

They did reveal in the battle outside Root Dude's cave that NK is impervious to fire. He doesn't even melt. Dunno why.

[Llywela]

3 hours ago, janjan said:

Dramatic necessity, I'd guess. They're in a hurry to wrap it all up, so they just tossed away the thing that has been the major plot point since the opening scene of S1E1 -- i.e., while mere mortals squabble over who gets to sit on a big chair, they're oblivious to something cosmic that is bearing inexorably down on them. And then suddenly it isn't. Oh.

I, too, found it kind of unsatisfying.

I'm in two minds. Because, on the one hand, I can see where splitting the two main unresolved plot strands (Night King and Iron Throne) into two halves of the season makes it all a bit less unwieldy to write. And I can also see where it makes for a neat-ish inversion of classic fantasy tropes to play it this way - so often in fantasy (LOTR being the classic example) there is an external evil forcing disparate forces of good to unite in a common cause, and when that common enemy is defeated, the story ends, happily ever after, when how likely is it really that unity would be maintained when the common cause is removed? A Show has already made the fracture lines between the allies clear, so showing the aftermath of the Defeat of the Big Bad subverts the traditional trope, brings the meat of the story back to the characters rather than the more abstract battle between good and evil, life versus death, and I do like that. With the Night King gone, there are still a lot of deep, dark human problems to be resolved, which are, quite frankly, far more interesting to me than an army of zombies, so I'm glad the story has allowed time to resolve (or attempt to resolve) the political problems of Westeros.

But on the other hand, it does all feel a bit rushed, and that subversion of the trope doesn't sit all that neatly against the initial framing of the show, as described above. It makes me wonder how much that tension between doing the traditional fantasy thing and subverting the traditional fantasy thing is present in the novels, and how much it derives from the dramatic demands of re-structuring the story for television. Also, given that I believe we departed from published source material some time ago, I wonder how much the pacing and structuring problems we're seeing derive from the showrunners having to wrap up the story within a set number of episodes without that source material to guide them.

Well, rushed or not, I'm glad the Battle of the Dead is over - I want to see how the human story now ends! Although I'll be sorry if all the alliances forged break down almost at once, so I hope that doesn't happen (it probably will).

ETA Also, I decided while watching this episode that what I really, really want to happen next is for Davos to adopt that little girl who reminded him of Shireen, and for the two of them to run away to Naath to live happily ever after, far away from the dangers of Westeros! How likely do you think I am to see my wish come true? 😉

Edited May 2, 2019 by Llywela

[Anothermi]

On 5/1/2019 at 9:37 AM, Anothermi said:

I remember Jon & Rhaegal flying in the blinding fog and being hit by another dragon (like when Jon & Dany first lost each other in the fog) but when he squinted to see if it was Dany he saw the NK instead. The bloody air battle ensued and I remember Rhaegal landing in water (where the heck did that come from?) but close enough to shore to allow Jon to get off. I may have assumed Rhaegal's death due to never seeing him again - even after the battle. Guess I forgot the Rules of A Show. It the death is not shown? It wasn't a death.

I just had a very strong impression that I witnessed Rhaegal's demise. I'm going to have to rewatch that part.

Re-watched. Memory sure is a tricky thing. On one level, my feelings about what I saw (my memory) is still true (which also means I still only have an impression, but no proof, of the demise of Rheagal - so there is still hope). But the big difference is what we were shown vs what I remembered seeing...

(somewhat earlier before the scene I remember, but related)

Jon and Dany (on dragons) are hovering above the fog trying to get their bearings. Out of the fog bursts the NK on Viserion who comes up behind Drogon and breathes blue (whatever that is) at his tail. It mimics a Spitfire fight complete with a rat-a-tat-tat sound from Viserion's throat as he "fires" at them. Then, for some reason, Viserion stops and dives back into the fog.

(then the scene cuts away to Arya being saved by Beric. More on that below)

NK flies over  Winterfell spewing blue fire around. It is Jon and Rhaegal who flew at/ into them (not as I remembered) and started the dragons fighting each other. This fight took place above the Weirwood tree in view of Theon and the Iron Born. (didn't remember that).

It is very hard to see, but I've assumed that when a dragon is clawed and red shows, that it's the living one - Rhaegal. He takes quite a beating. NK had his Ice Sword out and Viserion got close enough to be biting at Jon. Then, Dany and Drogon appear (I didn't remember them at all) and seem to "pluck" the NK off Viserion and he falls to earth in a shot reminiscent of Jaime sinking in the river after Bronn tackled him out of range of Drogon's fiery breath during last seasons epic battle.

Rhaegal is so wounded that he is shown plummeting toward the ground. Jon manages to, just barely, hang on. They land awkwardly - like those shots of geese landing... first running, then not keeping up to the speed and flopping forward onto their necks. This is exactly what Rhaegal did. Not on water, as I remembered, but on snow (which makes so much more sense) which sprays up like water would as Rhaegal slides to a stop. Jon is thrown off early - so no thoughtful assistance from the dragon (as per my memory). That awkward landing is the last we see of Rhaegal. Jon actually looks towards where I think Rhaegal is, but the shot is of a dragon flying toward him. It is Dany and Drogon flying over him.

So... close, but no actual death.

------------------------

Now on to the death of Beric Dondarrion. He threw his sword at the zomboni on top of Arya and seems to have got HIM, but but didn't get his sword back. So, while Clegane is dragging Arya to safety, Dondarrion his holding off the zombonies with his body.

There is an incredibly evocative shot of him with his hands pressed against opposing walls of the corridor being stabbed repeatedly by the dead and looking just like Christ on the Cross. Giving himself up to the Lord of Light. I couldn't help myself. I was moved.

Yet he manages to get away and make it to the room where Arya and Clegane have just arrived so he can die in their presence. (good old GoT time-shift).

Edited May 3, 2019 by Anothermi
clarity

[gingerella]

Awesome re watch comments, I haven’t been able to re watch yet. But our comments on the NKs demise and how it seems sort of odd that the whole WINTER IS COMING theme is by and large eliminated just like that *snap* got me thinking...I sure hope they don’t do something tripey at the end of this like, last shot is Bran sitting under the weirwood tree eyes closed, and the camera pans in and instead of becoming one with the tree, a la Root Dude, he opens his eyes and they’re...BLUE. That would be really disappointing to me. I want this to be the end of the NK and WWs, and just focus on the people game in front of us. I don’t know why but that image popped into my head today and I was thinking, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! 

[Anothermi]

It's helpful to note that Winter Is Coming is an important reminder - even IF the Night King is gone.  It's equivalent to current day: Climate Change is Here.   Not a good thing to not remember.

[janjan]

10 hours ago, gingerella said:

.I sure hope they don’t do something tripey at the end of this like, last shot is Bran sitting under the weirwood tree eyes closed, and the camera pans in and instead of becoming one with the tree, a la Root Dude, he opens his eyes and they’re...BLUE.

AAARGH! Say it isn't so, Show!!! Root Dude never became a WW, so maybe there's hope. But then, NK, never touched him. Oh noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!

BTW, I agree with Llywella that the human drama is much more interesting. Just, please, Show, don't bum us out like that!!

[WhiteStumbler]

Three things really struck me on rewatch - the MUSIC is extraordinary. GoT music is usually pretty high level, but this was just superb.

The waves upon waves of the Army of the Dead that were still coming at Winterfel when Arya stabbed the NK was horrifying. There is not a chance anyone would have survived if the NK hadn't been killed.

The zombonidragon's throat got bitten bad by either Jon's dragon or by Drogon. For the rest of the episode he was like a broken gaspipe with a leak, spewing blue flame out of the side of his throat.

Also, I loved how many different genres were in this episode: horror, thriller, monster movie, war flick, Great episode, one for the ages!

ETA: I mentioned earlier how Jorah's death would have been the one he would have chosen of all possible deaths in the 7K, but I hadn't caught how he collapses just after the AotD collapsed all around him and Dany - like the only thing keeping him upright was his mission of protecting his beloved khaleesi. Wow.

Edited May 5, 2019 by WhiteStumbler