S03.E11: Church and State

[juliet73]

The tax professor said in order to be classified as tax exempt, the religious/charitable side has to outweigh the business side and he used animal rescue as an example. We all the know the Co$ doesn't use the money they make to help the poor, needy, hungry, etc.  So their charitable side is basically 0%.  However, demanding that auditing be paid in advance and a small price break is offered if you buy a "package deals" is a business.  Running holiday sales on auditing as Mike and Leah mentioned is a business.  Having sea org members pay a "freeloader's debt" is a business. Displaying a price list is business.  So their business side is 100%.  I guess I'm not understanding how it ever could have been considered a charitable organization at any time during the past 60+ years. 

Also, I found this little tidbit on the IRS website:

"The IRS may begin a church tax inquiry only if an appropriate high-level Treasury official reasonably believes, based on a written statement of the facts and circumstances, that the organization: (a) may not qualify for the exemption; or (b) may not be paying tax on unrelated business or other taxable activity. This reasonable belief must be based on facts and circumstances recorded in writing.  The IRS can obtain the information supporting a reasonable belief from many sources, including but not limited to:    Newspaper or magazine articles or ads, Television and radio reports,  Internet web pages, Voters guides created and/or distributed by the church, Documents on file with the IRS (e.g. a Form 990-T filed by the church), Reliable information reports from concerned members of the church or the general public and Records concerning the church in the possession of third parties or informants.                                                     

The IRS must derive the facts and circumstances forming the basis for a reasonable belief from information lawfully obtained. If this information is obtained from informants, it must not be known to be unreliable.  Failure of the church to respond to repeated IRS routine requests for information is a factor in determining if there is reasonable cause for commencing a church tax inquiry.

Edited February 12, 2019 by juliet73

[Gothish520]

4 hours ago, juliet73 said:

The tax professor said in order to be classified as tax exempt, the religious/charitable side has to outweigh the business side and he used animal rescue as an example. We all the know the Co$ doesn't use the money they make to help the poor, needy, hungry, etc.  So their charitable side is basically 0%.  However, demanding that auditing be paid in advance and a small price break is offered if you buy a "package deals" is a business.  Running holiday sales on auditing as Mike and Leah mentioned is a business.  Having sea org members pay a "freeloader's debt" is a business. Displaying a price list is business.  So their business side is 100%.  I guess I'm not understanding how it ever could have been considered a charitable organization at any time during the past 60+ years. 

Also, I found this little tidbit on the IRS website:

"The IRS may begin a church tax inquiry only if an appropriate high-level Treasury official reasonably believes, based on a written statement of the facts and circumstances, that the organization: (a) may not qualify for the exemption; or (b) may not be paying tax on unrelated business or other taxable activity. This reasonable belief must be based on facts and circumstances recorded in writing.  The IRS can obtain the information supporting a reasonable belief from many sources, including but not limited to:    Newspaper or magazine articles or ads, Television and radio reports,  Internet web pages, Voters guides created and/or distributed by the church, Documents on file with the IRS (e.g. a Form 990-T filed by the church), Reliable information reports from concerned members of the church or the general public and Records concerning the church in the possession of third parties or informants.                                                     

The IRS must derive the facts and circumstances forming the basis for a reasonable belief from information lawfully obtained. If this information is obtained from informants, it must not be known to be unreliable.  Failure of the church to respond to repeated IRS routine requests for information is a factor in determining if there is reasonable cause for commencing a church tax inquiry.

Wow. I would think they would have no trouble at all obtaining what they needed to take away tax-exempt status. With all the information out there now and all the personal accounts, it should be a walk in the park!

[SailorGirl]

29 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:

Wow. I would think they would have no trouble at all obtaining what they needed to take away tax-exempt status. With all the information out there now and all the personal accounts, it should be a walk in the park!

Well, not a park in Clearwater, Florida, but pretty much anywhere else!! 😁

[MamaMax]

The Catholic church will not throw you out of Mass if you don't put money in the collection.  I also know that at my Parish, if you have a genuine hardship, they will waive suggested donations for baptism, communion, religious ed, weddings, etc. But ya better not try to claim financial hardship and then spend $5K on a dress and $50K on a reception. 

[kicotan]

On 2/12/2019 at 9:33 AM, Twopper said:

Churches don't have to apply under 501(c) 3 for exemption;  as long as they meet its requirements they are automatically exempt.   

Indeed, they don’t.  However, they still have to meet the requirements and many choose to be federally recognized because as a result,  their parishioners will feel safer about their tax deductible donations.

“...Theproblem is that Scientology makes it difficult to leave both personally and financially...”

Catholic convents have been accused of the same thing when a nun leaves.

“...The overwhelming evidence is that many former nuns experienced enormous practical and psychological problems, at the time of departure and later. Where they did not fairly quickly go on to long-term, well-paid employment or where they did not marry (and many did not) or where they were in poor health, physically or mentally, funds typically received on departure were in no way commensurate with their requirements then or later...”

https://www.vwt.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Paradox-of-Service.pdf

[kicotan]

3 hours ago, MamaMax said:

The Catholic church will not throw you out of Mass if you don't put money in the collection.  I also know that at my Parish, if you have a genuine hardship, they will waive suggested donations for baptism, communion, religious ed, weddings, etc. But ya better not try to claim financial hardship and then spend $5K on a dress and $50K on a reception. 

Indeed, the Roman Catholic Church has made themselves very acceptable and accessible since Vatican II.

However, their history of abuses and money-grubbing in comparison to Scientology is only diminished by the fact that they’ve been at it MUCH longer and reigned themselves in within the last century.

The Supreme Court recognized Scientology as a “religion” in 1997, 22 years ago.  22 years into St. Peter’s version of Christianity(Modern Day  Roman Catholicism) , adherents were considered belonging to a cult, persecuted, martyred, etc.

Edited February 13, 2019 by kicotan
Accuracy

[kicotan]

Just to be clear, I’m not advocating for, supporting or endorsing Scientology.

My stance is that regardless of belief system or historical existence, NO religion should get special treatment from the government by way of the IRS unless they can PROVE and document it by the same standards as Leah & Mike’s Aftermath.org does.

I couldn’t care less about some sentimental attachment to a specific sect that’s been around longer and has ended up apologizing and settling lawsuits to the tune of millions of dollars.

Currently, Dignity Health, owned and operated by the Catholic Church, routinely denies specific aspects of legal reproductive system healthcare to ALL community citizens based on religious beliefs, even if they are the ONLY hospital in a 50 mile radius.  I don’t think they deserve to enjoy tax exempt status when they monopolize healthcare and simultaneously dictate their own religious dogma standard of healthcare regarding the entire community they serve.  Especially when they are the ONLY option for folks who can’t afford to book an out of town stay at a non-Catholic owned, tax-exempt facility.

Back in the 70’s/80’s, there was an alternative, a Community Hospital that didn’t have “religious” obligations that superseded treatment options.  Unfortunately, they couldn’t compete with the tax-exempt organization that was their only competition so they closed.

Edited February 14, 2019 by kicotan
Memory loss

[Absolom]

Hospitals can become tax exempt by becoming non-profits.  

[kicotan]

1 hour ago, Absolom said:

Hospitals can become tax exempt by becoming non-profits.  

Completely irrelevant to my point, but thanks for your contribution anyway.

For your further consideration:

Remember the court clerk in Kentucky that wouldn’t issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples?  How’d that work out for her?

or Jerry Falwell’s Liberty Baptist College that didn’t agree with the federal law regarding desegregation?

Thats where I’m going with the ridiculousness of granting folks and entities tax exempt status.

The clerk was jailed for invoking her personal religious belief as a reason to deny providing services for folk according to the law.

Jerry Falwell’s church lost their tax exempt status until they got on board with allowing African Americans on campus.

Why should Dignity Health be able to deny healthcare that is discriminatory towards non-Catholics and not face similar consequences?

Edited February 14, 2019 by kicotan
Clarity

[HighlandWarriorGrl]

As a Catholic, I would like to get back to talking about Scientology, since that is the purpose of this board.  Thanks.

[kicotan]

28 minutes ago, HighlandWarriorGrl said:

As a Catholic, I would like to get back to talking about Scientology, since that is the purpose of this board.  Thanks.

As a Protestant, I’m sure there are current examples within Protestantism that would be similar, although harder for me to research/access.  I apologize for any offense you perceived by comparing Dignity Health to Scientology, historically or present day practice.  I thought the purpose of this board was discussing the current season of Leah and Mike’s show-specifically targeting the tax-exempt status of the church this season.

Upthread the idea that Scientology is alone in not being deserving of tax exempt status was brought up.  My position is that there are examples of other religions that fit the same mold, therefore it would be more efficient and effective to eliminate Scientology’s tax-exempt status by removing it for ALL and evaluating each claim for status going forward with the same scrutiny and accountability as Mike and Leah’s Aftermath organization.

Again, my apologies if you became offended by my comments.

Edited February 14, 2019 by kicotan
Grammar