Oliver Queen: The Arrow

[Genki]

So as we're getting a little closer to S4, I'm finding myself angrier and angrier at Oliver.  He made these totally unilateral (and terribly stupid) decisions for other people all season, and then he made his team think he'd gone evil and that he'd betrayed them and was letting them all die.  I don't want to argue about whether that was all justified (IMO it was absolutely not), however, I would like to be able to like him again.  So, do people generally think he's learned his lesson this time?  Like it's all well and good for him to apologize, but if he'd do it again then he hasn't learned anything, and for God's sake how did he not learn teams are yay! after the whole Slade situation?  

 

For the record, I usually dislike characters because of a combo of writing and acting issues (Ray, Laurel, Ra's were all done in by both for me), but I have zero problems with SA's acting.  It's all in the writing, but I am pretty close to not being able to stand Oliver anymore, which obviously makes it difficult to watch his show, so I'm hoping some of the brilliant posters here can talk me off that particular Arrow ledge.

 

I know you were not watching those later episodes towards the end of the Season 3, have you caught up on them yet? Because seeing it on paper versus in show may help you make up your mind once and for all.

 

As for me, I think Oliver is a Martyr and I roll my eyes at him, but I honestly think that he wants to prevent others from going through the same Trauma that he has. With Thea & MM, my head cannon is that he wanted to prevent her feeling the guilt and horror of being the cause of her parent's death. MM totally deserves to die and I don't think Oliver wants him to live, but even though Moira and Robert willingly sacrificed themselves for their children, I think Oliver feels the burden of being the cause of their deaths and of trying to be worthy of it. 

 

Joining the league to save Thea was IMO a follow on from this, plus she was the only family Oliver has left, (I think this is the reason why The Kid was only hinted at in S3 to the audience and Felicity was still with Ray until Oliver made the deal, would Oliver hold on so tightly to Thea if he know he had a child to protect, or if Felicity was his partner in every sense of the word?) he has nothing else to hold on to except Thea and was still in his identity crisis. Also I really like Oliver in Episode 3.20 he was a full range of emotions form devastated to hopeful and bashful and resolved.

 

Also for me, Oliver's superpower is compartmentalising, he buys into some of Amanda Wallace's philosophy about a little evil for the greater good and probably he feels more, I will say comfortable for lack of a better word, with knowing the evil behind the organisation, so he knows how to deal with them...I guess.  He will regret the decision to give MM the LOA, I'm sure because Malcolm is a bastard. I'm also intrigued by Nyssa being a complete thorn in the side of Ra's Al Mal in Season 4, I liked the tension and the vibe between Nyssa and MM in their final scene.

 

Also it may help that I've never been upset with the way Oliver treated Felicity, I think Diggle's anger is understandable but OTT, he started treating Thea more like an equal (I like the scene in 3.14 where he dislocates her shoulder), he has his issue but I see growth and movement and not instant-resolution to his issues. In a season where I so frustrated by the poor plotting and OOC-ness, plus the instant-"heroes" Oliver still retain his depths for me as a viewer. 

 

The Season 3 finale by no means erased all the bad in the Season for me, but it was enough to get me past it.

[AyChihuahua]

To be clear, and I don't think this was directed at me, I have zero problems with him taking a vacay.  Other than the show ending I would have zero problems with him permanently quitting the vigilante game.  I think he's done enough.  In fact I think he'd done enough once he mostly stopped the Undertaking.  (I always wanted Buffy Summers and Dean Winchester, two of my favorite characters ever, to have very happy and content retirements.)  My problem with him is that he did bad things to people, in the guise of making decisions for them/"keeping them safe" (a phrase I never want to hear from him again unless it's followed by a punch to his face).  For example, he made his sister effectively either live with the man who mindraped her or leave her own home.  That's doing something bad to her, which doesn't even seem to occur to him.  He comes across as insanely self-absorbed in the guise of being a martyr.  It's such a strange dichotomy.  I guess for me, it's like Sars of Tomato Nation once wrote: "You can't control your emotions, but you can control your behavior."  Yes he's definitely screwed up, but that screwed-upness comes out as these really destructive actions to people he supposedly loves.  

[dtissagirl]

Yeah, I don't know how I'd overlook some of the stuff without looking at the external factors. You say you can't accept them, I guess I'm the opposite. Film school hardwired it into my brain. :) The reason I can handwave Oliver leaving Malcolm on Thea's couch is because I know the show has no other sets to use as Merlyn's place.

And I think Arrow's writing has never took the time to put in-text motivation behind plots and story beats that were forced by external factors. [see: Laurel Lance's continuing existence.] They gloss over that stuff with every character, not just Oliver. He just gets more of it because he's the protagonist.

But I'm not sure how to find in-text motivation when it looks to me like there actually isn't any.

[AyChihuahua]

I think maybe if it's clear in S4 that he finally, FINALLY, learned his lesson and doesn't keep important things from his team anymore or treat them like employees, I might be okay with him again.  I truly want to be okay with him again.  The writers, though, really rely on him doing that that for SURPRISE plot twists (e.g., there was absolutely no reason for him not to have told Felicity the Mirakuru cure plan ahead of time and gotten her consent...instead he tricked and embarrassed her, because they wanted to surprise the audience).

[dtissagirl]

Yeah, super high on the list of S4 wishes: that they stop making Oliver plot-driven for gotchas. Gotchas ARE my least favorite kind of external factor, because they're a choice Guggenheim is making. He gets off on shocking the audience, and he writes episodes backwards from the SHOCKER! moment, and his favorite gotcha tool is making Oliver do something dumb.

Say no to gotchas, they hurt hero protagonists.

[apinknightmare]

There was a reason for Oliver not to tell Felicity about the plan though (even though it was, indeed, shitty) - Slade had them bugged. I mean, yeah, it also served to trick the audience, but there was in-show reasoning for it, since Slade had already managed to intercept the cure from the STAR Labs guy by bugging Felicity's phone.

[Scribbles]

Aye Chihuahua:

For me it boils down to remembering where we are with Oliver in his journey.  In the past (flashbacks) he is just over halfway to becoming the bearded man who wants to go home.  We really don't know who that man is yet.  What moves him from deciding not to return home at the end of season 3 out of fear of who has become to who he is when he signals the fishing boat?  For the three present years, the past has been the antagonist of his present.  If the end of season 3 is really him taking a proactive role in his own life, next season really will be a new show.  We really don't know the Oliver that is making choices, we have watched the one who responds to what happens to him.

[kismet]

Pretty much Genki, Scribbles, Lemotomato & Dancingnancy tackled this portion of understanding the inner workings of OQ's psyche. I tend to not need as much in-show justification or explanation of his behavior because I feel l get most of his rationales & behaviors even if I don't agree with them. I too hope he has finally learned some of his lessons. But with Oliver Queen, I generally see character progression & growth even if it is microscopic at times. When he does something really idiotic & dumb, it is generally only for plot purposes which is just the writers easy way out of actually writing innovative scripts. The writers use his character for dumb purposes, so when I see that happen I think more what are the writers thinking?

 

But I was inspired to a thought today after reading a fic, that OQ made one dumb decision that really kinda irritates me in the finale. I get that it was part of the deal to hand over the LoA to MM (for the record, this is an in-character dumb move by OQ which I can't understand/rationalize well). However as the new Ras Al Ghul, I believe that OQ had the ability to nullify & terminate his marriage to Nyssa. I do not understand why he didn't use that opportunity to rid himself of the marriage that was never really part of his plan in the first place? It would have been a nice gesture to Nyssa as well, since he did just kinda screw her over multiple times between killing her father, usurping her role & then replacing it with MM.

 

The writers are quick to back track on everything else, so why couldn't they just get rid of this little gotcha shocker twist that they played for drama purposes? I really think it would have been the easiest way for him to get a fresh/clean slate. Perhaps he/they did & are waiting to tell FS/audience. But honestly, I doubt it. Rather, we are gonna have to watch him grovel at MMs feet for mercy or some other shit to get rid of this marriage. And honestly, I have no patience for the remnants of a forced marriage to be continuing on into s4. Its one of those loose strings that could have been tied up in the finale so easily.

[BkWurm1]

However as the new Ras Al Ghul, I believe that OQ had the ability to nullify & terminate his marriage to Nyssa. I do not understand why he didn't use that opportunity to rid himself of the marriage that was never really part of his plan in the first place? It would have been a nice gesture to Nyssa as well, since he did just kinda screw her over multiple times between killing her father, usurping her role & then replacing it with MM.

 

The in show reason is I think Oliver doesn't view it as real (which rightly he shouldn't for the multiple reasons that have been previously discussed.)  The out of show reasoning is probably that they want to leave it intact incase they can think of a reason to use it to mess with the characters in the future or something.  At the very least Sara needs to haze him about it. 

[AyChihuahua]

I am nearly 100% sure that the Nyssa marriage is going to come up when he tries to marry Felicity.  I mean, it's totally a trope (Bones' Angela and Hodgins spring to mind), but they're going to be at their wedding, Felicity looking all beautiful in white, Oliver handsome in a tux, they're about to speak their vows...and boom, a bunch of assassins/Merlyn/Nyssa or maybe Felicity's dad and/or Darhk or the S5 villain drop in to say Oliver's already married.  Cue angst and ship stall for at least half-a-season, and more reasons for Merlyn to be around (he'll have some kind of plot, needing to sow discord bw O and F).  Then at the end of the season they'll get married in a courthouse with just TA there. 

 

I would be much happier if I could incorporate out-of-show reasons into my tv viewing more, but I can't.  I have too active an imagination and basically think of my favorite tv shows as AUs.  I totally understand and appreciate out-of-show reasons, I just can't rely on them to make stupid/annoying storylines and characterizations less stupid or annoying.  Hopefully S4 is awesome, Oliver goes back to being trustworthy and intelligent, and I can just forget S3.

[TrueMyth]

Does Oliver really need to be fluent though? If he had a good enough understanding of it (hearing not speaking and apparently devolved off screen in his down time) but had the perfect accent and knew the right way to phrase the question, the blind man at the Chinese restaurant could have just assumed he was fluent and a native speaker. I could easily assume that Oliver has an ear for accents without being actually fluent.

 

This is pretty much what I was assuming until 3x16 aired.  When he was walking in the garden with Akio and learning how to say "Hao Ba," his accent wasn't great (apparently) and he'd been living in a Chinese speaking country, possibly even interrogating Mandarin-speakers on the regular, without picking up something as simple as "okay."   I could accept that Oliver's command of any Chinese dialect would be the most polished when interrogating someone as he did in 1x16, since that is what he practiced for Amanda Waller for about six months.  I can hand-wave the Triad guy at the restaurant in 1x16 putting a bit too much confidence in his "Definately Chinese" pronouncement and stack that with a hand-wave about Oliver's facility for languages/accents... except they showed him learning Mandarin twice (once from Shado, once from Akio) and these just don't match up.

 

If he has the facility with accents you suggest, then I would expect him to be able to mimic more complicated phrases than a single concept and to do so quickly, which is not what 3x16 demonstrated.

 

If they wanted to explain Oliver's fluency in Mandarin, they shouldn't have put him in Hong Kong anyway. The majority of the people there speak Cantonese.

 

I think the main reason they picked Hong Kong was for the "I was on a island" joke, which I appreciate.  I secretly hope he'll be on islands in seasons 4 and 5, too, though I think it less likely.

 

As far as languages go, it is problematic, as you suggest.  That is part of the reason behind my question.  The choice of Hong Kong and low proficiency demonstrated by Oliver in 3x16 made me question his established command of the language in the first season.  It is interesting that they made Akio and his parents fluent in Japanese, Mandarin, and Cantonese (apparently?) and highlighted Mandarin in 3x16.  I was honestly confused as to what they were demonstrating in regards to Oliver's language abilities.

 

Turns out, at least according to MG, the answer is not much!

 

Of course, Marc didn't directly write the story or teleplay for either episode.  It's possible that another producer/writer is holding the show to account on this.  At this point though, it seems like a goof to me.

 

All I really want at this point is some kind of throwaway line, either flashback or present, that clear up the discrepancy.

[lemotomato]

I think you've put more thought into this than the people on the show have, Truemyth. When I watched 3x16, I got the impression that Oliver did know how to say "It's OK" in Chinese but only pretended not to know to give Akio a distraction. I could also fanwank that Oliver picked up more Mandarin while in Hong Kong by listening to Rosetta Stone or watching TV (it looked like he had some free time while living with the Yamashiros). But MG's answer does sound like they've just forgotten that Oliver was portrayed as being fluent in Mandarin in season 1 (he had a brief exchange with China White in 1x02 in addition to the scenes in 1x16). 

 

I wouldn't take accents into account as an indicator of proficiency either. In general, the Chinese spoken on the show is... not great. Celina Jade (Shado) was the exception, but that's because she's fluent in real life. 

Edited July 19, 2015 by lemotomato

[TrueMyth]

I think you've put more thought into this than the people on the show have, Truemyth.

Oh, I had very little doubt on that score.  Isn't that what these forums are for? ;)

 

And his answer just cleared any doubt I may have had.  I mean, I'm sure at least one of the E.P.s knows Oliver is supposed to speak Mandarin pretty well or it wouldn't have been touched on so often in season one (e.g. 1x02 & 1x16, the Chinese tattoo, and Shado and Yao Fei's language lessons).  I've never held show creators or runners up as "god" for any show, but there are some who do better than others at internalizing continuity.  I think it's obvious from MG's various responses that he is not one of them (e.g. he had no idea about Oliver checking Felicity's roots, he thinks KC's Canary costume has fishnet patterned legs, etc.).  I hold out hope that interacting with fans on Tumblr and Twitter help him catch some of these things, but it is very likely a vain hope.

 

Obviously we have different reads on the 3x16 scene, but I'd be fine with a nod to his practicing or using Mandarin at some point in the next couple seasons, as long as it shows more proficiency than the scene with Akio.  The Chinese tattoo gives me hope, since he's yet to get that.  Do we know what that tattoo says?

 

Oh, and I know TV accents are generally horrible, and Arrow's Mandarin is no exception.  Since I speak only English, it's not hard for me to suspend disbelief on that front.  I'll just take the Triad guy's word that Oliver has a good command of the language.

[AyChihuahua]

To some extent, with superhero shows internal consistency/logic is really the best we can hope for, and on that front Arrow often fails. I keep trying to figure out why I am still obsessed with the show, and for me it has to be the characters. I mean I kind of hate Oliver and think he's basically a sociopath now, but I spent 2 1/3 years loving him, and I still love Digg and Felicity, and Thea and Roy and Sara. I think that's about it for Arrow for me now that actions scenes/story/plot/show logic/half the acting pretty much stink, but apparently it is, just barely, enough. Unless S4 is bad, of course. Then I'm out.

[dtissagirl]

I think out of everyone working on Arrow, Stephen's the one who seems to have the most knowledge of the characterization details/story minutia. But even so, his information is also sometimes inaccurate, because he mainly watches Director's Cuts of the episodes. Like that time in a Facebook Q&A from early season two, someone asked him why didn't Thea ever go to the basement at Verdant, and he replied that they answered that on the show -- that Oliver told Thea the basement was flooded. Except that line/scene got cut from the aired version. Ooops.

Edited July 19, 2015 by dancingnancy

[AyChihuahua]

Like that time in a Facebook Q&A from early season two, someone asked him why didn't Thea ever go to the basement at Verdant, and he answered that they answered that on the show -- that Oliver told Thea the basement was flooded. Except that line/scene got cut from the aired version. Ooops.

As an aside from your point, it's probably better that that line was cut, because flooded basements are bad. You don't just leave them alone for a couple years.

I wonder if he has any interest in becoming a producer of the show. I think he understands the character stuff far better than, e.g., Guggie, and I think he could be quite good in that role. Not sure how that kind of thing works, though.

[Starfish35]

that Oliver told Thea the basement was flooded. Except that line/scene got cut from the aired version. Ooops.

It did? I could have sworn I saw that scene. *confused* I couldn't tell you what episode though. Maybe I dreamed it. Lol. :)

[dtissagirl]

It did? I could have sworn I saw that scene. *confused* I couldn't tell you what episode though. Maybe I dreamed it. Lol. :)

 

They had the line in the S3 episode when Oliver tell Thea the truth. :)

[Starfish35]

Oh I didn't catch that it was supposed to be in a season two episode. But I just looked at the transcripts - he does tell her that in TSOOFS when she is trying to get into the basement. That's the scene I was thinking of. Sorry! :)

Edited July 19, 2015 by Starfish35

[kismet]

It did? I could have sworn I saw that scene. *confused* I couldn't tell you what episode though. Maybe I dreamed it. Lol. :)

 

 

They had the line in the S3 episode when Oliver tell Thea the truth. :)

Thanks for clearing it up. Because I too had a memory of Thea talking about flooded basements and I couldn't place where is was from. Sometimes it gets hard to separate the show from the spoilers, from the forums, from the fics. I gets a little muddled.

 

The difference is I am a fan & MG is a showrunner. I don't need to know show bible & character minutiae but MG should - especially if he is addressing questions on Tumblr about it. He should know that in s1 OQ spoke/understood Mandarin with some conviction - perhaps not fluency but still he has more than rudimentary understanding of Mandarin (which is still a lot considering how difficult it is to learn Asian languages).

[dtissagirl]

Replying in the behind the scenes thread.

[lemotomato]

So amidst all the discussion about Oliver speaking Chinese on the show, I think someone wondered about the characters in his tattoo. I found this thoughtful analysis. Translated literally, though, the characters mean mouse, ginger, Yao (a surname), and pig. They also happen to be the characters on the Arrow SDCC bag this year.

I guess we're going to get an explanation sooner rather than later. I'm kind of looking forward to them addressing it.

[kismet]

Perhaps he magically learns Mandarin when he gets the Chinese characters tattooed on.... DD could be his tattoo artist and somehow uses special & magical ink that gives OQ the ability to speak the language.... They did have those crazy tattoo powers in Heroes....

 

Just joking :) Seriously though, I hope they do remember to tell us how he got those tattoos & what they mean/signify. I also hope that perhaps those are tattoos that he got willingly. The other ones seem like they are more a burden to him about the bad things. It would be nice to think that he perhaps was able to get something that was more positive in its memory.

[dcinmb]

From the "Behind the Mask" thread:

I don't know if it's that much harder to learn than any other foreign language. For a Westerner, it might be more difficult than the ones based on the Roman alphabet. I definitely know more non-native fluent Mandarin speakers than non-native Russian speakers.

If they wanted to explain Oliver's fluency in Mandarin, they shouldn't have put him in Hong Kong anyway. The majority of the people there speak Cantonese.

I believe Chinese is generally considered especially challenging, even among Asian languages, because of the tones: Mandarin has four, Cantonese has up to nine. Get the tone a little bit off and you could be talking gibberish. And many of the dialects are distinct from one another. For example, my dad was born in Shanghai and my mom was born in Guangzhou/Canton, so the only languages they have in common are Mandarin and English. She can't speak Shanghainese and he can't speak Cantonese.

And I assume that there are more non-native Mandarin (and Japanese) speakers than non-native Russian speakers because fluency in Mandarin/Japanese can open a lot of doors career-wise.

As for Oliver, his Mandarin is unintelligible for the most part. I actually understood his "Hao ba?" in the Hong Kong flashbacks but IIRC, I couldn't understand a word of what he said in the Chinese restaurant in Season 1. EBR didn't get to say much in the Chinese Coke commercial but her pronunciation was more intelligible than SA's.

[wonderwall]

You know, this gifset is sort of beautiful. I love it and I also hate how this story was diluted in order to raise other characters up (and you know which characters I'm talking about). 

 

 

 

 

I wish that Oliver's arc was more prominent in S3 and more concentrated. But I can't deny how far he's come with regards to his will to live. 

 

I know a lot of people hate/don't like Oliver and I agree he's regressed in other aspects of his life, but man, I love this character so much. I'm just really invested in his story and I hope we get back to that. 

[AyChihuahua]

I really don't want to hate him, but his actions in S3 were terrible. I loved him for 2 1/3rd years, so I'm pretty much hoping he's so awesome in S4 and forward that I forget S3 and all the crap he pulled then.

[wonderwall]

See, I don't condone the things Oliver did in the last few episodes, but I feel like he'd beat himself up enough for it which is why it's so hard to stay angry at him.

 

I just want him to be happy, and I think that him being happy will clear his mind a bit and help make him a better person. 

Edited July 29, 2015 by wonderwall

[AyChihuahua]

I think my problem is that he did them anyway, knowing they were bad. For me that kind of makes it worse, and I am not sure he's learned that the decisions he made were mostly wrong. Overall he came out of all that pretty clear...his only consequence was a gross brand (which I really wish Ray's nanites would get rid of) and Diggle being kind of mad at him. I am just not sure he's learned anything, and SA's kicked puppy face doesn't make up for it for me.

However, I am optimistic about S4 Oliver being not a controlling creepy borderline sociopathic moron. Really! Also the new outfit is growing on me, and I still think SA is an excellent actor.

[Carrie Ann]

I think my problem is that he did them anyway, knowing they were bad. For me that kind of makes it worse, and I am not sure he's learned that the decisions he made were mostly wrong.

For me, it was clear that Oliver was willing to either die, or survive but lose every relationship that mattered to him, if that's what it took to keep everyone else alive. It was worth it to him to lose everything. He would rather everyone hate him, but stay alive, than risk all of their lives (and the lives of everyone else in Starling) by letting them in on his plan. He saw that as a serious threat--you may not. But I do believe that Oliver believed it was too big a risk--that it would rely on (at least) five other people being at least as good at acting as he and Malcolm were, lest Ra's see through the ruse and kill them all. And so, for me, all of Oliver's actions make complete sense. He was pretty sure he'd die anyway, and as long as they lived, whatever they might feel about him afterward was worth it. I don't see that as sociopathic; I see it as self-sacrificing.

 

Along the same lines, I don't think the show EVER presents Oliver as a person with the highest emotional intelligence, so his underestimating how upset Dig would be about Lyla is right in line with his character. (Also, I think Oliver had good reason to believe Dig might be more understanding about all of this. Dig has been shown to be pragmatic to a fault in the past.) But once Dig's level of anger was clear, Oliver quickly accepted it, as though it was no real surprise. He was sad, but clearly prepared for that response. That the others forgave him--perhaps because they weren't personally targeted as Dig was, or because they too had moments of shittiness w/r/t their loved ones, or because they too have a mercenary streak, or because they have a pretty solid understanding of Oliver and saw the rationale in his actions even if they disliked them--doesn't mean that the show thinks Oliver was 100% in the right. I think if you're a person for whom Oliver's actions crossed the line, then Dig is your surrogate, basically. That's the show saying, "This was a complicated situation and all responses are valid." Felicity's fairly quick forgiveness is just as valid, and in character IMO, as Dig's rejection. (I imagine many long conversations on that roadtrip though!)

 

As far as what he learned--I think the point of that gifset, and the point of Felicity's motivating speech, was that Oliver was approaching this battle--and his whole life--with a fatalistic attitude. He assumed he would die, or if not, then anyway his life was still worth the least of all of those around him. And that was not sustainable for an actual life, nor even the best or most effective gameplan. He needed to want to live again, and realize that he deserved that, and that he was stronger with a desire to live. So he went into the last battle with that in mind, survived, realized he had a lot to learn about himself and what kind of person he wants to be, and he set off to figure it out.

 

So if you mean that he didn't "learn" that everything he did was wrong, well, yeah, I don't think he did learn that and I don't think it's a fact that his approach was actually the wrong one, so.... But he did lose one of the three most important people in his life. And he did learn that the fatalistic approach was not the only way, and that he's not the only person who can protect the city. He was certainly not in that place when we started in 301.

[AyChihuahua]

For me, it was clear that Oliver was willing to either die, or survive but lose every relationship that mattered to him, if that's what it took to keep everyone else alive. It was worth it to him to lose everything. He would rather everyone hate him, but stay alive, than risk all of their lives (and the lives of everyone else in Starling) by letting them in on his plan. He saw that as a serious threat--you may not. But I do believe that Oliver believed it was too big a risk--that it would rely on (at least) five other people being at least as good at acting as he and Malcolm were, lest Ra's see through the ruse and kill them all. And so, for me, all of Oliver's actions make complete sense. He was pretty sure he'd die anyway, and as long as they lived, whatever they might feel about him afterward was worth it. I don't see that as sociopathic; I see it as self-sacrificing.

That gets back into the controlling thing, in that it's not his decision to make. It never has been. He spent two years learning to respect his team's work ("my life, my choice"), and then threw away all that progress. And his whole self-sacrificing thing is basically a slow suicide plan, which makes him seem kind of pathetic to me. I guess I just don't feel sorry for him anymore.

And worst of all, Starling was in danger because he put it squarely in RAG's sites to save his sister. The sister who was skewered by RAG bc even knowing the LOA was after him and his team, he left her alone in her own loft. And everything he did in Nanda to save them was only necessary because all of his unbearably stupid decisions put his team in a dungeon in Nanda. If he had just handed over Malcolm in the first place, none of it would have happened. We found out later that Malcolm was bluffing re turning in Thea (which Oliver at least somewhat knew, as he said when Malcolm was captured by RAG that he wouldn't betray Thea...again), and we also found out that even if Malcolm had, the LOA would not have blamed Thea, but would just have punished Malcolm. Maybe Oliver didn't know that, but he never bothered to find out, he just believed Malcolm when he said he didn't kill Sara and cheerily put Malcolm under his protection. Malcolm, who more than anyone on this show deserves punishment.

Finally, in terms of informing his team, there is no reason except surprise for him not to have told Digg. Digg would have kept the secret and provided support, and it's not like he has to move on from Oliver's friendship or something...if it took three years for Oliver to implement his LOA-takedown plan, Digg's daily life would be no different in those three years, except that instead of thinking his best friend was now evil, he'd know that his best friend was trying to take down an evil organization from the inside. Honestly, how is it better to think your best friend is lost to you forever because he's dead or gone or evil, than to think that your best friend is basically working undercover to take down an evil organization?

[Carrie Ann]

That gets back into the controlling thing, in that it's not his decision to make. It never has been. He spent two years learning to respect his team's work ("my life, my choice"), and then threw away all that progress. And his whole self-sacrificing thing is basically a slow suicide plan, which makes him seem kind of pathetic to me. I guess I just don't feel sorry for him anymore.

 

Slow, self-sacrificing suicide is exactly what they showed was his mentality (or at least what he was wrestling with) all season, and exactly what I described in my post. "Someday, that's gonna be me." He was going to keep fighting this fight, trying to protect people, until it killed him. Even if it was fatalistic, it doesn't mean it wasn't also self-sacrificing. I definitely hear that you don't like Oliver enough to feel sorry for him anymore, but the good news is we're probably past it now.

 

But about the bold: in this instance, it wasn't about putting just themselves in danger. It was everyone else too, the whole plan, in Oliver's mind. If he told them enough to let them decide for themselves, then it would already be too late. The risk was in telling them at all. "My life, my choice" did not apply. 

 

But beyond that--and to address your last question about not telling Dig--my original point is that I don't think Oliver cared about hurt feelings or being disrespectful or domineering at this point. He cared about keeping people alive. He was desperate, and scared, and operating semi-blind--having nothing more than Malcolm's information as to how things might proceed. He didn't know he'd be sent back to Starling to retrieve Nyssa, or that the team would work against him on that, which would lead to the Lyla thing, etc. He didn't know Ra's would move against Starling so quickly. He didn't know it would be the Omega virus. He was adjusting his plan as they went, and Malcolm told the team when the time came that the risk was greater if they didn't know and couldn't help.

 

But I agree that it was disappointing that the season and final few episodes were structured to require Oliver not to tell at least D&F after spending so much time learning to work with them--and I'm not saying the writers weren't making choices here; that they couldn't have made others--but like I said, I don't think we were supposed to see it as a great thing. I think it was sort of the last gasp of that Lone Wolf Martyr Oliver. Maybe he didn't want to put Dig in the position of lying to his family or to Felicity (who is canonically not a good liar, so Oliver expecting her to be able to convincingly put on a show for Ra's, if necessary, would make no sense to me). Maybe he knew Dig might be a part of his testing and that it wouldn't sell if Dig knew. I don't know, but I don't think "surprise" is the only logical reason not to tell Dig here. 

 

And I 100% agree that Oliver should have just given Malcolm up immediately. Absolutely everything would have been solved if he had (as MG basically admitted, "then we have no season!" haha vomit), and taking him at his word in 304 is probably the loudest I booed at Oliver this season. It was clearly a mistake (a super-obvious plot-necessary one), and one he might undo if given the chance. It's just...that's baked into the whole premise of the season, so I just couldn't stay mad at Oliver about it. That "Thea needs her father! It would kill her soul if he died!" thing is a horse they're gonna ride 'til the end I guess, and I've given up hoping they'll ever stop using it to keep MM alive and semi-relevant.

[apinknightmare]

 

But about the bold: in this instance, it wasn't about putting just themselves in danger. It was everyone else too, the whole plan, in Oliver's mind. If he told them enough to let them decide for themselves, then it would already be too late. The risk was in telling them at all.

 

Agreed. Because the problem wasn't so much about giving them the information, it's that he didn't have much information to give them. And the Diggle I know? If Oliver had told him that he was going off of information that Malcolm had given him - that Ra's was going to make him destroy Starling City (the city where Diggle, his wife, and his daughter live) as part of his ascension - Diggle never, ever would've sat idly by and waited for it to happen. He would've told Felicity, and Ray, and Laurel, and they would've done something to take out Ra's, and it very likely could've gotten them all killed AND doomed the city. 

 

I don't blame Oliver for not telling them. At all. It was one of the smartest things he did in a season full of idiocy, IMO. 

[BkWurm1]

I don't blame Oliver for not telling them. At all. It was one of the smartest things he did in a season full of idiocy, IMO

 

I don't know if I'd go that far but I think the choice he made was understandable.

 

For me what makes it reasonable is all the unknowable factors that were going on when Oliver "agreed" to stay in Nanda Parbat.  Nothing suggested to me that before Thea was stabbed that he knew he was going to have to accept Ra's offer since I have to think if he would have known that Ra's was going to destroy Starling one way or the other as part of Ollie Al Guhl's rite of ascension, then he would have agreed to Ra's demands before so many murders happened in his name and certainly before Ra's came after Thea. 

 

I know Oliver says the reason he kept Malcolm close was that he was the best source of info but I don't think that means Malcolm shared about destroying the hometown until after the LP offer was in play.  So one of the reasons I forgive Oliver is he was not in the best mind frame when he was making the choice to keep everyone but Malcolm out of the loop.  Thea was dying.  His friends were already risking their lives just accompanying him to Nanda Parbat.  He had no idea how long he was going to have to be in deep cover.  I can see him making the choice to limit the operation to himself and Malcolm who was the only one how could sneak in so they could exchange messages.  Once the choice was made, there was no undoing it. 

 

So right when his protective instincts were the strongest, right when he was focused on sacrificing himself to save Thea, right when he was getting ready to dedicate perhaps years of his life to defeating Ra's - and right when Oliver was likely thinking there was no way he was going to survive the final battle, that is the moment that he's set his plan with Malcolm.  The details had to have already been spelled out before they ever boarded the plane. 

 

Beyond keeping everyone out of the loop but Malcolm for the sake of no one finding out what his true intentions were, he was also setting Felicity and Diggle free of him.  He was going to gain strength from knowing they were happy living their lives and as long as they were waiting for the big Ra's shaped shoe to drop, they wouldn't be able to do that.  They also wouldn't be able to easily move on for a host of other reasons but would Oliver understand how much he really meant to them all?  He still didn't truly understand what Felicity needed to be happy and while he may have thought he was sparing them the agony of waiting, for them, the waiting is what would have been bringing them hope. 

 

The next time he spoke to them (minus a regiment of LoA at his back) was in Nanda Parbat.   He had no other chance to bring anyone in on the game plan once they left Starling for the LP.  I mean, let's say it occurred to him that he could trust Diggle to keep the secret once he had a few moments to think but there was no real privacy on the plane and how could he risk saying anything IN Nanda Parbat.  Even if it wasn't true, he'd have to assume the walls had ears everywhere.   He could have asked for a private moment on their walk out but he was very much back in to protective mode.  He was concentrating on getting them out alive.  

 

 

 

. 

Edited July 30, 2015 by BkWurm1

[apinknightmare]

I don't know if I'd go that far but I think the choice he made was understandable.

I meant to write "smarter" instead of "smartest," but I do think it was a good decision not to tell Diggle and Felicity that Ra's planned on destroying the city at some undetermined point in time, so...eh.

Edited July 30, 2015 by apinknightmare

[dtissagirl]

I don't know if it was intentional, but they pretty much made Thea into Oliver's blind spot [replacing Laurel in that matter] this season. In 304 when Oliver believes Malcolm's "no prison can hold me" monologue, that was legit dumb, but they were setting up a season long arc for how Oliver would react to Malcolm *because of Thea*. And as Carrie Ann said, the story itself, and the writers room, give more importance to Malcolm and his influence on Oliver than I do [than most of us in this board do], but I grit my teeth and accept that they're never ever letting Barrowman go, so.

 

Much of what Oliver did that was Malcolm-related after 304, it was because of Thea. Not handing Malcolm to the LoA for killing Sara. Going to Nanda Parbat to save Malcolm for the sake Thea's soul. The whole fake brainwash plan after Thea was LPed. He told Felicity before he died that he would do everything for Thea, and that's what he did. Regardless of consequences. And from the other side, Malcolm knows that Thea is Oliver's blind spot, and he explores it in his manipulations.

 

Deciding to work with Malcolm when Oliver came back from dead risked his relationship with Felicity, Diggle and Roy, but he did it anyway, because yeah, that was a little bit about his ego for getting kicked out of that mountain, but it's all part of the larger theme they set up that Oliver will do anything for Thea. And in S3, that mostly meant having to deal with Malcolm.

 

So in a way, I look at the story, and I see the story itself as dumb. Because I REALLY don't give the importance the text is asking me to give to Malcolm. I think Malcolm is a super problematic character that derails story instead of adding to it. But that's not what the text is telling me. In-text, Oliver does give Malcolm the exact same importance that the writing itself does. And there's even motivation: because of Thea. So I choose to accept the premise that Oliver thinks Malcolm is super relevant, and then Oliver's motivations make sense.

[Scribbles]

Right or wrong, Oliver has many reasons not to turn Malcolm over to the League.  Turning someone over to the LOA is killing them.  If you have vowed not to kill, to turn someone over you have to believe they are a qualifying exception to the vow you set for yourself.  In the end, Oliver killed Ras and made an exception.  This is why Felcity endorsing killing Ras was key to they story and as big a point as the "I love you" from Oliver in the scene.

 

Oliver's vow not to kill again emerged from Tommy's death.  Tommy's death featured another "obligation".  When Tommy died, he asked Oliver if Malcolm lived, and Oliver lied.  When Malcolm re-emerged, Oliver had the chance to make good/make right that lie to his dying best friend.  One quck flashback to Tommy's death and that moment would have helped remind everyone of that. 

 

Oliver carries his own guilts for horrible acts.  He knew Malcolm before the events that gave rise to evil Malcolm.  Oliver can relate in a very real way to how a person can be changed by what they experience.  If Oliver is to have any belief he himself can be redeemed, Malcolm makes very personal the extension of that belief to others. The show has done very little to make these connections, but Malcolm and Amanda Waller are far more alike than has been emphasized.  Oliver hasn't killed Waller either, and Lyla was willing to do Waller's bidding for a long time.  Maseo also presents comparisons to Malcolm.

 

Yes, he wants to protect Thea from the destructive guilt that would follow being responsible for killing her father.  Yes, he needs information/skills that Malcolm has. 

 

A meta type question that underlies Arrow is, "when do the means justify the ends and/or the ends justify the means?"  It is at the heart of the vigilante question.  It is at the heart of ARGUS, and so forth.  Diggle was haunted by killing a young soldier in a war he believed was for the better good to protect a really nasty guy who could help win the war.  If that left Diggle haunted, what will the line be for Diggle when it is even more personal?  Season 4 could put Diggle's line drawing to a test.  Would Diggle engage Malcolm's help to find his brother's killer?  If he does, what does that say about the ease with which everyone condemns Oliver for "dumb" when doing the same to save his sister.  I bring up Diggle because he is a proxy for the means/ends question and they have made no secret of this being a conflict that he has with Lyla. 

Edited July 30, 2015 by Scribbles

[dtissagirl]

Yes, he wants to protect Thea from the destructive guilt that would follow being responsible for killing her father.  Yes, he needs information/skills that Malcolm has.

 

This is part of the derailing Malcolm causes to the story. External factors all over it: the text of the show wants the audience to look at Malcolm as Thea's *father* for plot reasons. And, you know. Malcolm's the sperm donor. Robert was Thea's father.

 

But plot dictated that Oliver put all of this importance in Malcolm being Thea's father, and you either accept that to buy Oliver's motivations, or it all falls apart. For me it was a lot of hit and miss. I bought it sometimes. Other times I wished Moira were still alive so she would slap Oliver silly for considering Malcolm to be Thea's father in the first place.

[Scribbles]

This is part of the derailing Malcolm causes to the story. External factors all over it: the text of the show wants the audience to look at Malcolm as Thea's *father* for plot reasons. And, you know. Malcolm's the sperm donor. Robert was Thea's father.

 

But plot dictated that Oliver put all of this importance in Malcolm being Thea's father, and you either accept that to buy Oliver's motivations, or it all falls apart. For me it was a lot of hit and miss. I bought it sometimes. Other times I wished Moira were still alive so she would slap Oliver silly for considering Malcolm to be Thea's father in the first place.

Was versus is.  Malcolm is Thea's father in the present of the show.  He may be a despicable cad, but he is her father and upon his discovery of that he began to act as her father (rescue, money...).  None of these "parents" (Robert, Moira, Malcolm ...) are without sin.  We are left to determine how much sin is redeemable and how much is not. 

[dtissagirl]

Was versus is.  Malcolm is Thea's father in the present of the show.  He may be a despicable cad, but he is her father and upon his discovery of that he began to act as her father (rescue, money...).  None of these "parents" (Robert, Moira, Malcolm ...) are without sin.  We are left to determine how much sin is redeemable and how much is not. 

 

That's my whole point -- the show now wants the audience to see Malcolm as Thea's father -- mostly through Oliver seeing Malcolm as Thea's father [even more than Thea herself]. You seem to have an easy time accepting it, that's great. But that premise more often than not makes my suspension of disbelief go haywire. Which for me is a sign of bad writing.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Along the same lines, I don't think the show EVER presents Oliver as a person with the highest emotional intelligence, so his underestimating how upset Dig would be about Lyla is right in line with his character. (Also, I think Oliver had good reason to believe Dig might be more understanding about all of this. Dig has been shown to be pragmatic to a fault in the past.) But once Dig's level of anger was clear, Oliver quickly accepted it, as though it was no real surprise. He was sad, but clearly prepared for that response. 

 

For the longest time I also thought that Lyla being abducted (and Sara) left alone was the reason for Digg's anger toward Oliver. I think there was a lot of speculation about it on this board before it actually happened and after the episode aired and it kinda stuck in my head and I didn't really question it. But a recent rewatch of 3x23 -- and reading SDCC interviews with David Ramsey -- made clear that the reason Diggle was upset was because he and Felicity were out of the loop -- "You trusted Merlyn over the two people closest to you," or something like that. David said Diggle couldn't trust Oliver anymore, that as a soldier that was a huge thing for Diggle because you always have to believe that the people backing you up or you're supporting are giving you all pertinent information. So it wasn't really about Lyla or Sara. Still doesn't change the impact of Oliver's decisions, though.   

 

I agree with you on Oliver's mindset. He knew he was basically burning his relationships to the ground and salting the earth with his unilateral decision. But for him, that didn't matter as long as the people he loved were safe and alive. He didn't quite get how bad it was going to be for those people if he died, because he didn't really understand the difference between surviving and living having been on survival mode for the last 8 years. Alive is alive, for him. 

Edited July 30, 2015 by SmallScreenDiva

[dtissagirl]

I think this might have been one of the themes they were [poorly] exploring: in Oliver's head, living = surviving. Because he doesn't know anything else. And he projects it onto others too. From his POV, if he dies, but the people he loves get out of it alive [survive], he's done the right thing.

 

It's why Felicity's "fight to live" speech was necessary. Someone needed to say it out loud in-text, that living and surviving are not the same thing.

Edited July 30, 2015 by dancingnancy

[SmallScreenDiva]

I think it was, too. I felt they were setting up in episode 2 with Oliver thinking all he really had to look forward to in the life he chose was dying. Felicity, on the other hand, was going to live her life more fully with the decision to accept the job with Palmer. But both kinda got lost during the course of the season — as many things were. 

[Scribbles]

That's my whole point -- the show now wants the audience to see Malcolm as Thea's father -- mostly through Oliver seeing Malcolm as Thea's father [even more than Thea herself]. You seem to have an easy time accepting it, that's great. But that premise more often than not makes my suspension of disbelief go haywire. Which for me is a sign of bad writing.

I see Thea as the child of a willing act between two consenting adults (Moira and Malcolm).  They even wrote into the show that it was in part Malcolm's guilt over betraying Rebecca's memory by being with Moira that drove him to the LOA.  I never saw in the show a time when either Malcolm or Thea had trouble believing they were father/daughter by blood.  I did see hints that Thea more than Oliver could see traits in herself of Malcolm.  Oliver viewed Thea with an ideal that she never presented to be (the most pure hearted).  I think part of Malcolm's reluctance to let Thea be put in the pit came from getting this "it" better than Oliver.  Malcolm sees his darkness in Thea and Oliver is blind to it.  I hope you will help me see how Oliver is more the one that sees Malcolm as her father than Thea herself does, it could change my view. 

[dtissagirl]

I see Thea as the child of a willing act between two consenting adults (Moira and Malcolm).  They even wrote into the show that it was in part Malcolm's guilt over betraying Rebecca's memory by being with Moira that drove him to the LOA.  I never saw in the show a time when either Malcolm or Thea had trouble believing they were father/daughter by blood.  I did see hints that Thea more than Oliver could see traits in herself of Malcolm.  Oliver viewed Thea with an ideal that she never presented to be (the most pure hearted).  I think part of Malcolm's reluctance to let Thea be put in the pit came from getting this "it" better than Oliver.  Malcolm sees his darkness in Thea and Oliver is blind to it.  I hope you will help me see how Oliver is more the one that sees Malcolm as her father than Thea herself does, it could change my view. 

 

I guess the big glaring difference for me is that imo, Malcolm thinking he is Thea's father doesn't matter to me. Neither does Oliver thinking it. The only opinion that matters to me is if THEA considers Malcolm to be her father. And yeah, she doesn't doubt that he is her blood father, but I never got the sense that she thought of him as a "dad", if you will. He fathered her because biology, but he is not her parent.

 

Oliver, otoh, sees Malcolm as Thea's parent. Maybe because of Tommy, maybe because he knew Malcolm as a loving father once. But I don't get that from Thea. And for me, what Oliver thinks in this matter is void. Which makes the whole storyline hard to buy for me sometimes.

[Scribbles]

Oliver, otoh, sees Malcolm as Thea's parent. Maybe because of Tommy, maybe because he knew Malcolm as a loving father once. But I don't get that from Thea. And for me, what Oliver thinks in this matter is void. Which makes the whole storyline hard to buy for me sometimes.

What if Thea does see Malcolm in herself, better than Oliver is able to?  Thea is a gal who can take a gun a shoot a man who is her blood father, but even more can shoot a man who just saved her life.  Thea is a gal who asked the same man (father) to make her someone capable of being emotionally detached.  Malcolm didn't force her to run away with him, she chose to.  A weakness of Oliver's is his placement of Thea on a pedestal of pure heartedness and virtue.

[dtissagirl]

What if Thea does see Malcolm in herself, better than Oliver is able to?  Thea is a gal who can take a gun a shoot a man who is her blood father, but even more can shoot a man who just saved her life.  Thea is a gal who asked the same man (father) to make her someone capable of being emotionally detached.  Malcolm didn't force her to run away with him, she chose to.  A weakness of Oliver's is his placement of Thea on a pedestal of pure heartedness and virtue.

 

This is getting off topic for this thread, but I guess for me, Thea seeing parts of herself coming from Malcolm only tell me that she now is aware that he is her biological father. That's what happens when you discover this kind of thing -- you try to look into yourself and see what traits you got from biology. Which is also a whole lot of projecting -- she was going through something really dark, because Moira had just died, and she latched onto the living representation of ~darkness that is Malcolm. That doesn't tell me that Thea now thinks of Malcolm as a *parent* in any way.

[kismet]

In my mind, Oliver choosing to ally himself with MM instead of JD & FS for the take-down of LOA after the TQ's LP made absolute sense to me and was one of the smarter decisions that OQ had made s3. MM was well versed in NP & LOA, so therefore he could provide insight that the others did not. MM has proven himself to be a better liar with a looser moral code that JD or FS, which was vital to some of the possible missions that they might have to do. MM was also very loyal to TQ, so OQ could try to keep him inline by linking his cooperation to their mutual love of TQ. Lastly & probably most importantly, OQ deeply loves & cares about FS & JD, so by using them post-LP to take down LOA he would be putting them in harm's way and he wanted them to be able to live their lives happily, whereas MM was expendable to the mission. If MM was compromised, his death would not be something that would haunt OQ as much as JD & FS.

 

That being said, his plans per usual did not go according to plan and problems arose when he had to make adjustments. Perhaps he should have told them that he had a plan and he would link them in when he needed to. But in some ways he tried to do that the week before while in jail custody when he said he had a plan and they just had to trust him/follow him until the end. But then they went around his back to rescue him and that cost Roy his life and almost his actual life. Honorable, noble & loving mission, but still it foiled whatever plan he had going. I feel like if JD & FS had not just the week or so prior went against his "trust me til the end", then he might have considered bringing them into the LOA plan sooner. However, JD & FS had shown their hand the week prior & then in the catacombs that saving OQ's life was their highest priority. I feel like as much as he knows he can trust them with his life, that was not who he needed as his priority point of contact to take down the league.

 

It might have felt unilateral or controlling to some people, which is valid opinion. But I personally disagree with that assessment because in his tactical assessment, even if he trusts FS & JD the most of everyone in the world, for the mission MM makes the most tactical decision. Sometimes who you love & trust the most are not necessarily the best people for a particular mission, especially considering how high risk & open ended the mission was. He had already almost sacrificed FS (s2 finale); JD (the NP rescue mission with chains) & RH (jail break) & had to rescue his sister from almost death - perhaps he thought it was best to give them an opportunity to not be stuck on a near suicide mission just because they love him. For once his decision seemed not only based in love but also tactical sense.

Edited July 31, 2015 by kismet

[BkWurm1]

Oliver's vow not to kill again emerged from Tommy's death.  Tommy's death featured another "obligation".  When Tommy died, he asked Oliver if Malcolm lived, and Oliver lied.  When Malcolm re-emerged, Oliver had the chance to make good/make right that lie to his dying best friend.  One quck flashback to Tommy's death and that moment would have helped remind everyone of that.

 

If only they had done this I could fully accept why Oliver fights so hard to keep Malcolm alive.  

 

I guess the big glaring difference for me is that imo, Malcolm thinking he is Thea's father doesn't matter to me. Neither does Oliver thinking it. The only opinion that matters to me is if THEA considers Malcolm to be her father. And yeah, she doesn't doubt that he is her blood father, but I never got the sense that she thought of him as a "dad", if you will. He fathered her because biology, but he is not her parent.

 

This is it for me.  The was doing a bit of bonding with Malcolm until she found out that he'd used her to kill Sara and then it was like she snapped out of his thrall and remembered exactly who he was.  A biological donar, not the man who raised and loved her and wanted what was best for her.   Oliver swooping in to undo what Thea did with the LoA was more hurtful to her IMO than had the LoA gone through with killing Malcolm.  It seemed to me it was Oliver's absolute unmitigated certainty that she was doing something heinous that made Thea wonder what kind of monster she was, not her choice to report Malcolm to the LoA. 

 

Thea was IMO finally thinking clearly about Malcolm but Oliver's insistence on treating Malcolm like her father muddled her thinking all up again.  I know Oliver was being protective but he was also projecting emotions onto her that she didn't have.   It's a complicated mess. 

[BkWurm1]

I feel like if JD & FS had not just the week or so prior went against his "trust me til the end", then he might have considered bringing them into the LOA plan sooner. However, JD & FS had shown their hand the week prior & then in the catacombs that saving OQ's life was their highest priority. I feel like as much as he knows he can trust them with his life, that was not who he needed as his priority point of contact to take down the league.

 

It might have felt unilateral or controlling to some people, which is valid opinion. But I personally disagree with that assessment because in his tactical assessment, even if he trusts FS & JD the most of everyone in the world, for the mission MM makes the most tactical decision. Sometimes who you love & trust the most are not necessarily the best people for a particular mission, especially considering how high risk & open ended the mission was. He had already almost sacrificed FS (s2 finale); JD (the NP rescue mission with chains) & RH (jail break) & had to rescue his sister from almost death - perhaps he thought it was best to give them an opportunity to not be stuck on a near suicide mission just because they love him. For once his decision seemed not only based in love but also tactical sense.

 

I agree that Malcolm made more tactical sense to bring in on the mission at hand and also agree that Oliver was trying to keep Felicity and Diggle out of it unless necessary.  I would stress also that I don't think not letting TA in on it earlier meant that he didn't trust them.  It was Malcolm that said they were lousy actors.  I have no reason to trust Malcolm's explanation or believe it was Oliver's main concern.  I think his team had proved themselves in all the ways that matter, but that didn't mean that he would let them get further involved in a very dangerous doublecross that he assumed would happen far away from them and one he had no timeframe to give them.  Without a clear plan or pressing reason to bring them in, it didn't occur to him to just tell them anyway for non tactical reasons.

 

I don't think that TA going around Oliver and saving him despite himself influenced him to keep them out of the loop.  Oliver's plan that he wanted his team to follow him for just a little longer, it was another suicide mission.  The best he could hope for was prison for the rest of his life but he was a fool if he thought letting himself get locked up would stop Ra's or ensure his loved one's safety.  One of the most important thing his team does is know when NOT to follow Oliver's lead.  

 

Once they swapped Roy out for Oliver, then TA kept implicitly asking him to trust them and that was his take away lesson, that he should let others help him...but I don't think TA was the best choice to help him with what he was facing with the LoA until he actually had a plan.  

 

The fatal error I think he made was in judging to tell or not to tell them about the plan solely based on tactical reasons.  There were emotional reasons why he should have told him and since he DID trust them, he should have given them at least enough information to work with him, not against him. 

 

Of course Oliver telling them he had a plan or not was kind of made moot by the whole brain washing thing.  If they were going to so easily believe he could be brainwashed, then Oliver telling him he would keep trying on his end wouldn't mean a thing since the team apparently was just going to assume he had gone evil anyway.  The writers willfully didn't have Oliver and the team talk about what was going to happen.  It should have been a given that Oliver would try to stop Ra's eventually.  It also should have been a given that Ra's would try to brainwash him to his way of thinking. 

 

Honestly Ra's actions weren't at all consistent.  Why go to the effort of MAKING Oliver say yes if you were only going to brainwash him anyway?  Just keep him in Nanda Parbat or tranq him one day and bring him back to NP.  Why waste time trying to persuade him?  

Edited July 31, 2015 by BkWurm1

[lemotomato]

I wasn't sure where to post this, since discussion of the Funko Pop! figures has shown up on a couple threads, but here's the "Island Scarred" Oliver Pop that just got released: