Criminal Minds Unpopular Opinions

[SSAHotchner]

I don't think they'll ever get rid of Garcia. At one time she was my favorite female character. Now I can barely stand her.

[BeaVee]

I really dislike Beth - the mention of her, the sight of her, the very thought of her and I hate her for Hotch.  I don't know what kind of woman would be right for him,(me) but it's not her and her ugly wallpaper.  Which of course, is crazy to me because I would pretty much do anything for Mellie Grant :)  It's all in the writing I guess.

 

Also Jack.  He was okay as a little one, but for the love of all things DNA find a new kid.  This one is...unfortunate (he's giving me red-headed demon vibes for all of you GH ers out there). 

 

I could write a novel on how much I hate JJ, but others have done it way better.  Now there is someone who is long overdue for an LOA.  Two years should do it.

 

I'm indifferent to Garcia and Morgan, they are background noise to me, as is Rossi which is a shame because I want more for him.

 

Reid.  He needs a lover.  I don't care who it is, just find one for him.  And I want to see his mom again.

[Dionysa]

Reid.  He needs a lover.  I don't care who it is, just find one for him.  And I want to see his mom again.

 

Agreed.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Also Jack.  He was okay as a little one, but for the love of all things DNA find a new kid.  This one is...unfortunate (he's giving me red-headed demon vibes for all of you GH ers out there). 

 

Reid.  He needs a lover.  I don't care who it is, just find one for him.  And I want to see his mom again.

SNORT!

 

Now that's just mean. Yes, Haley and Aaron should have had a more attractive child, but he's hardly Dylan Cash ugly.

 

http://www.imdb.com/media/rm3213211904/nm1138880

 

I agree with the last thing, though. Reid needs a new relationship, one that doesn't end in tears. It's probably not as unpopular as you think.

[SSAHotchner]

BeaVee, I'm in total agreement with you about Beth. Can't stand her and I think she and Hotch have zero chemistry on screen. But I have a soft spot for Jack. I know the kid isn't much of an actor, and now he's at that awkward age where he's no longer a cute little thing, but hasn't quite grown up, but he's Hotch's son and I love him. I know it's painful to watch him sometimes, but I still love him because of some of the cute scenes when he was younger. You'd think his mother would get him some acting coaching if she wants him to continue to have a career acting.

[idiotwaltz]

BeaVee, I'm in total agreement with you about Beth. Can't stand her and I think she and Hotch have zero chemistry on screen. But I have a soft spot for Jack. I know the kid isn't much of an actor, and now he's at that awkward age where he's no longer a cute little thing, but hasn't quite grown up, but he's Hotch's son and I love him. I know it's painful to watch him sometimes, but I still love him because of some of the cute scenes when he was younger. You'd think his mother would get him some acting coaching if she wants him to continue to have a career acting.

 

The kid who played Jack was really adorable in the first few seasons and i appreciate keeping the actor on for the sake of continuity, but I agree that the kid needs an acting lesson or ten. It's not a big deal to me though, since the kid gets a maximum of 10 lines per season. I also think Henry is, for all that he is adorable, a terrible actor, so let's just keep giving him no more than 5 lines per season. 

 

Unpopular opinion: I do not and have never given a crap about the romantic relationships of ANY of the characters and I'd much prefer it if they kept it off my screen. I could deal with Hotch/Haley (which was not so much about the romance as it was about Hotch's life being complete and relentless suffering) but every other relationship, from Garcia and Kevin to JJ and Will to Rossi and Strauss (wtf was that? no, seriously) to Reid and Maeve to Morgan and whatever his girlfriend's name is, I didn't even bother to find out, has been nothing but a waste of screen time. 

[SSAHotchner]

Haha, idiotwaltz, I agree with you on Rossi and Strauss. I never bought that relationship. I liked it better when they were snarking at each other. But unlike Frank and Joyce on Hill Street Blues, their adversarial relationship did not translate into heat in the bedroom for me. I'll admit that scene with Strauss leaving the hotel all disheveled was funny, but I just didn't buy her and Rossi as anything but work adversaries.

 

I did like Kevin and Garcia together, and I actually liked Haley before they turned her into a shrew. But I am uninterested in Morgan's love life, probably because he's the least interesting one on the team for me. I liked JJ and Will when they first hooked up, but they both annoy me now. I'd love to see Reid have a woman take him seriously and respect him, even if it's not a romance. And you all know that I hate Beth with the heat of a thousand suns. But, I, too, do not want to see personal relationships take over the show. I fervently hope for a return to real profiling.

[millennium]

I've always been sweet on Emily Prentiss, so the show has seemed lacking for awhile now.

 

The Garcia/Morgan thing has bugged me from the start.    I didn't like Shemar Moore when he was on Y&R, but I was willing to give him a chance on this show.   That "baby-girl" shit, though.   And the flirty repartee that in any other workplace would result in a sexual harassment settlement, let alone in a federal government agency.    Not cool.

Edited July 29, 2014 by millennium

[Wilowy]

Well they've been doing it for going on a decade. Kinda late for anyone to press charges now. ;)

 

I like their banter, always have (except for the Lamborghini thing. OTT).

[zannej]

Oh the Lamborghini thing was absolutely terrible! And you'd be surprised. Sometimes people can do stuff in the government and one day someone decides they can't do it anymore and they either get a reprimand or they are out on their asses.

[Mulva]

I liked Seaver, and I don't understand why Hotchner booted her from the team after making one mistake in judgement when the rest of the team has done far worse.

[Wilowy]

The one line to explain it was JJ telling Emily that Seaver transferred to Andi Swann's unit, and Emily replied "Good for her!".

[zannej]

Mulva, Hotch didn't boot her from the team. I think you're thinking of her first appearance when she was a cadet. As a cadet she disobeyed a direct command from an SSA (Hotch), broke the chain of evidence by taking something she had no right to take and trying to return it without any authorization (which some might consider theft or tampering with evidence because she wasn't even an agent and had absolutely no right to take any evidence anywhere). She endangered herself and possibly others and could have compromised the investigation. She not only violated protocol, but she broke the law and should have been booted out of the Academy. She never should have graduated much less been put on the team later. It's one thing when a seasoned team member makes a mistake in the course of an investigation after they have "earned their stripes" so to speak, but for a cadet to screw up so badly while still in the Academy would just prove that she lacked the proper qualifications for the job. The FBI will kick people out or exclude them from eligibility for their online activity, for their relatives and known associates (if they have criminal family members or friends), and numerous other reasons.

 

The fact that Seaver actually still graduated after what she did was not really believable, but having her actually join the team after Hotch condemned her is absolutely ludicrous. There is no way in hell that Hotch would have allowed her to come along after she proved herself to be a liability.

 

I wouldn't say that other team members have done so much worse. I don't think any of them have quite defied a direct order from Hotch like that nor broken chain of evidence. They've endangered themselves and possibly others, but not in the same way.

[millennium]

I just read that Jennifer Love Hewitt is joining the show.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

The un-sub whisperer?

 

What a stupid, stupid casting mistake.

[normasm]

millennium, yeah, I think we're all hoping against hope it's not as ill-conceived as it sounds.

[millennium]

For the sake of the serious fans, I hope so too.    I watch casually, in reruns on Ion or whatever that cable channel is.   I'm probably two or three seasons behind.   So obviously I'm not terribly vested in the show.   If it were canceled tomorrow, I'd probably think, "They never should have let Emily Prentiss go," and never give it a thought again.

 

Still, casual viewer that I am, even I recoiled when I saw the news about Jennifer Love Hewitt.    I can't stand her.   Her very name annoys me.   She has been associated with so many really bad shows.  

 

I saw it announced in a feature article about Jean Tripplehorn.  The reason I read the article in the first place is because Tripplehorn was using it as an opportunity to poo-poo Mandy Patinkin's longstanding opinions about the show's violent, misogynistic bent (an opinion I agree with, despite that I watch the show).  She tried to paint him as a hypocrite.

 

Me, I like Mandy Patinkin.   I don't like Jean Tripplehorn.   And I really don't like Jennifer Love Hewitt.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I saw it announced in a feature article about Jean Tripplehorn.  The reason I read the article in the first place is because Tripplehorn was using it as an opportunity to poo-poo Mandy Patinkin's longstanding opinions about the show's violent, misogynistic bent (an opinion I agree with, despite that I watch the show).  She tried to paint him as a hypocrite.

 

Me, I like Mandy Patinkin.   I don't like Jean Tripplehorn.   And I really don't like Jennifer Love Hewitt.

I'm gonna shoulder my way in here, because I've been vocal about my displeasure regarding Erica Messer's (mis)handling of both Tripplehorn's presence on the show and Alex Blake as a character. Regardless of whatever Patinkin says about CM, it is a bit hypocritical IMO for him to call it violent and misogynistic when he went on to do Homeland, which was centered around a bipolar woman who refused to take her meds on the grounds that it made her a better agent and had an adulterous affair with someone who turned out to be a terrorist. He was the one who was married and she wasn't, but still. I love Claire Danes and think she's very talented, but Homeland isn't exactly family fare.

 

Also, considering the incredibly large crap Messer took on Tripplehorn because she didn't want to hire her, I think it makes Jeanne look classy that she doesn't take potshots at the show the way Mandy does. What exactly does Patinkin hope to get out of dissing CM after all this time?

Edited August 24, 2014 by Cobalt Stargazer

[mstaken]

I can't stand pretty much every single thing I know of Mandy Patinkin, and I think his acting can be obnoxiously stagy and over the top...but my UO is that I think Gideon was a really interesting, layered character who added a lot to the show. I personally prefer Joe Mantegna as an actor and think Rossi is a more likable guy, but as much as I hate to admit it, whenever I rewatch S1 and even S2 I'm reminded that the deeply flawed but brilliant Jason Gideon was part of what made CM unique for me, and somehow the team dynamic and overall show has never been quite as interesting to me since he (and Elle!) left.  

Edited August 24, 2014 by mstaken

[Wilowy]

I saw a Charlie Rose with Patinkin the other day as I was flipping channels and against my better judgment I stayed on the channel to hear what he had to say.

 

At first I was surprised because I almost choked up when I heard his voice. It made me realize that I do miss rude, self-involved Gideon more than I realized. Mandy was clean-shaven like Gideon, and talked so much with this hands, also like Gideon. However it took the scope of five minutes to become bored with his self-aggrandizing, his attribution of MUCH more depth than his show deserves, and his bragging and blatant praise in Homeland, of some of the very things he decried about CM. I do agree about the hypocrisy. 

 

I like JLH sometimes and I hope the things I like about her translate well into our show. Joe likes her, but then Joe likes everybody. :)

[JMO]

I don't have room in my life for anything or anyone who is too high-maintenance, so I've not been a fan of MP in general.  But I agree with mstaken.  His character was sort of a psycho-profiler, a loose cannon, and you never knew what he would do next.  It added a completely different layer to the tension of the episodes, and the relationships and interactions among the characters.  As much as Gideon's antics would sometimes make me cringe, they also gave energy to the dynamics of the team, and I miss that. 

 

Hotch was a softer character then, with a trace of humor.  In my opinion, his personality changed more when Gideon left, and he was left in charge, than it did when Haley left him, or even when she died.  Reid had an anchor on the team, as unreliable as it might be.  That unreliability itself was fascinating.  Elle's relationship with Gideon, and her devolution that just vaguely resembled his, was intriguing.  I don't know that the relationship between Gideon and Morgan, Emily or JJ made as much of an impression on me.   

 

I, too, find Rossi's character more likeable and JM's portrayal appealing in a low-key sort of way.  And I suspect his character is much more alike to an actual profiler than was Gideon's. 

[millennium]

While I can understand the CM loyalty, there's no getting past the fact that the show revels in depraved violence, usually against women.   Week after week, it's a formulaic excursion into the sick and twisted fantasies of ... the writers.   Once in a blue moon does a case of the caliber CM handles actually happen -- years often pass in between.   But CM would have you believe this shit is going down every few days.   It's a bloodfest with a streak of torture porn, in prime time.    It's not even a procedural, because the procedure is always the same.   Call comes in, team assembles, wheels up, check in at sheriff's office in Bumfuck, Idaho, lecture the local yokels on the unsub's MO, then always -- ALWAYS -- the bad guy gets caught by someone from the BAU, and NEVER the aforementioned locals.

 

Trying to champion or dignify the content of CM is like trying to make a case for a Big Mac.    Pointless.   We all know it's bad for us, but we consume it anyway.   And that's okay. 

 

Yes, Homeland deals in violence too, but it's not the same, not by a long shot.

 

ETA to change CI to CM.

Edited August 25, 2014 by millennium

[mstaken]

Assuming that by CI you mean CM, I'm not actually sure I agree with that. I think earlier seasons, while obviously not a revolutionary show by any stretch, had a certain amount of psychological insight and sometimes even raised a few genuinely thought-provoking issues. It was skilled at creating a suspenseful mood and feel and engaged me for reasons that had less than nothing to do with the torture porn (which, for the record, I dislike.) I'm not claiming it was ever Emmy-worthy, but I do think CM was a genuinely good crime drama for at least a few seasons rather than just a pure guilty pleasure for me...which may be a UO!  Pitifully enough, my real guilty pleasure is Murder She Wrote, which---well, I'll spare you guys the humiliating details ;) 

[millennium]

I like the first few seasons best, too.    A lot of that has to do with Mandy Patinkin.   Gideon was a good character.   Elle was a good character, too (who deserved a better send-off)

 

Joe Mantegna's acting style is just so ... preachy.  

[Wilowy]

millenium, Jim Clemente would disagree with your blue moon theory. According to him (an actual ex-FBI profiler), things like CM portrays, and even much, much worse actually, DO happen with alarming frequency. While I'm not defending the torture porn aspect (looking at YOU, "PROOF", and others), what they do show is actually watered-down. Robin Dreeke, who is the head of the real Behavior Analysis Program has said the same thing. 

 

Also, I take exception to your Big Mac analogy, so I'd like to opt out of your 'us' reference. I've loved the show for going on a decade, warts and all. 

 

And Homeland deals in genocide and terrorism. Serial killing on a much larger scale. 

Edited August 25, 2014 by Willowy

[millennium]

If truth be told, I prefer the Quarter Pounder with cheese myself.

 

Willowy, can you kindly post some links to the Jim Clemente/Robin Dreeke comments?    I would be interested in reading their perspectives on CM.

 

Thanks.

Edited August 25, 2014 by millennium

[Wilowy]

Jim's own twitter feed provides many examples, millenium. While I don't have time to hunt down each one, you're of course free to look them up yourself. Here's an excerpt from one interview posted on CMRT:

 

"While in town he came to Augusta to sit down with Brad Means on the set of “The Means Report.” Clemente shares his experience with child sex crimes – both on a personal and professional level. He also takes us behind the scenes of “Criminal Minds” to explain how true to life the show really is, and how real life stories have not only been turned into shows but have saved lives."

 

And here's a link to the entire interview: http://criminalmindsroundtable.blogspot.com/2014/03/criminal-minds-season-9-jim-clementes.html He's also been on Larry King.

 

Robin's communique will take longer to locate. I'll post it if I can find it again. 

[zannej]

I will add that I think more of the stories in the first few seasons seemed to be based on real-life cases or drew inspiration from things that had happened. After season 5 or so there were a lot more just pure fake villain characters (a lot of them were in Janine Barrois episodes) and they started focusing more on showing the violence happening and we were inundated with seeing the unsubs in action. I can't remember the figures, but I once figured out the percentages of how often we saw the unsubs early on in an episode in each season. The first four seasons had early reveals less than 50% of the time. After season 5 I think its now about 90% of the episodes showing the unsubs early. And showing the unsubs early often means showing the unsubs torturing/killing their victims.

 

Yes, they had violence and women were often the victims when Mandy was on the show-- but that was to reflect the statistics. Its just a fact that women are targeted by serial killers more often than men. Partially because men are more likely to be serial killers and the fact that there is often a sexual component to serial killers. Another thing is that women are generally smaller and not as easily able to fend off attackers. I know that even some small women are rather strong, but there is the perception by the killers that they will be easier targets.

 

One of the things that really bugged me about Mandy's statements was that, at the time he left the show, they weren't actually showing a lot of the violence. There was not nearly as much gore and they did more fade to black or just implying the violence. I found it far more creepy when they showed the room Frank used to torture his victims and just saw how Reid reacted-- looking rather horrified. We weren't seeing tons of blood or anything. We didn't see him actually torturing the victims, but we saw the room and it was left to the imagination what he did to people. I found it more effective than when they showed the victims being tortured and killed. I remember one particular episode where they showed the victims being shot repeatedly and it was so fake looking that I actually laughed. Anyway, basically Mandy's statements about the gore were not as true.

 

I also have to disagree about the depravity. The whole point of the show is that there are depraved people out there, but we have this group of people who go out and stop the depraved killers. Obviously it is a bit contrived in that they have a jet and they almost always solve the case and they are the ones who apprehend the killers, but that is just the formula of the show. They are the heroes in the story and its for TV.

 

I do not feel the least bit guilty for my love of Murder She Wrote. :-)

[SSAHotchner]

I'm gonna shoulder my way in here, because I've been vocal about my displeasure regarding Erica Messer's (mis)handling of both Tripplehorn's presence on the show and Alex Blake as a character. Regardless of whatever Patinkin says about CM, it is a bit hypocritical IMO for him to call it violent and misogynistic when he went on to do Homeland, which was centered around a bipolar woman who refused to take her meds on the grounds that it made her a better agent and had an adulterous affair with someone who turned out to be a terrorist. He was the one who was married and she wasn't, but still. I love Claire Danes and think she's very talented, but Homeland isn't exactly family fare.

 

Also, considering the incredibly large crap Messer took on Tripplehorn because she didn't want to hire her, I think it makes Jeanne look classy that she doesn't take potshots at the show the way Mandy does. What exactly does Patinkin hope to get out of dissing CM after all this time?

I agree wholeheartedly. I find Homeland much more disturbing than CM. And I also agree about Messer's treatment of Jeanne and her character. I was never a fan of JT before her stint on CM, but she showed class by refusing to discuss the situation or complain or badmouth anyone involved. I give her credit for speaking up about Mandy. He needs to STFU about CM and get on with his life. I used to be a fan, but I no longer have any interest in watching him in anything. I only sat through Homeland because my husband wanted to watch it. I kept telling him how much I disliked all of the characters. On CM, the situations are awful, but the team is very likeable. They all have good qualities and come across as the good guys. In Homeland, everyone is lying, cheating, many are killers. I can't care about what happens to them. I really didn't want to watch at all.

[zannej]

As much as I dislike what Mandy did when he left the show and afterward, I still loved him in The Princess Bride and I did like that he seemed to genuinely care about Matthew. Oh, and he did the songs for Criminal Minds as a spoof that were really funny. Sometimes I wonder if the real reason he left was not even about the violence, but about the focus shifting away from him and I've heard rumors that he butted heads with Thomas a bit. I know that Shemar said that Mandy didn't demand that the show be about him and he was very kind, but I think maybe he was nice to Shemar and that was back in the time that Thomas and Shemar had some sort of tiff that almost ended in a fistfight. There may have been a bit of a power struggle. Anyway, its pure speculation on my part-- but I still suspect there was more to Mandy deciding not to go back to the show and that he just used the violence and alleged misogyny as an excuse and that after repeating it so many times he actually started to believe it.

 

I'm glad that I've never watched Homeland. I don't like shows where the protagonists are criminals.

[SparedTurkey]

 

Sometimes I wonder if the real reason he left was not even about the violence, but about the focus shifting away from him and I've heard rumors that he butted heads with Thomas a bit...........I think maybe he was nice to Shemar and that was back in the time that Thomas and Shemar had some sort of tiff that almost ended in a fistfight

@Zannej - I'm genuinely curious over what you said. I've never heard of any behind the scenes shennanigans with the casts. Can you elaborate for me about that stuff (I'm not at all meaning to be rude or anything at all, I've just never heard that. Although I have only recently joined a CM fandom outlet :) )

 

That said, I didn't really like Gideon. I thought he was overdramatic, such as the episode where he screams in a house to prove a point (I cannot for the life of me remember the episode, but in the scene it was him and Morgan, who gave the best WTF face).  I didn't think he was a team player or worked well with anyone else (maybe even less than Rossi did when he started) and I didn't think there was a reason for him to be so tortured and/or particular/needy - prior to Frank killing his girlfriend etc. Maybe it is my dislike for MP bleeding through (BUT if you sign onto a show about serial killers, you know what you are getting into - particularly based on the pilot episode, which dealt with rape/murder). I just don't like Gideon.

 

I prefer Rossi in his first few episodes when he was somewhat arrogant and selfish. I think it gave the team members (i.e. Paget Brewster, Thomas Gibson and Matthew Gubler) something to react to even when the writing wasn't all there. Not to mention, JM had something to do rather than be the kind 'father figure'.

 

I also didn't mind Jordan Todd. I liked her relationship with Prentiss (more than her with Morgan - female work friendships YAY!). And I liked seeing someone struggle - she was great in her usual job but struggled with the BAU. And I think Hotch was written as somewhat out of character when it came to Jordan, because I don't think he was ever as hard on JJ as he was on Jordan (in fact he went out of his way to console JJ when she was taking a case personally, but didn't have any time for Jordan).

[normasm]

I really liked Jordan, too. Maybe that's not strictly unpopular, but I think she was well-written, in that we got to know that 1) this ain't her usual gig and she struggles with it; 2) JJ is really good at a really difficult job; and 3) Jordan doing things that agents aren't supposed to do pointed up the fact that being BAU is a tricky balancing act, and an agent must suppress a lot of natural instincts to effectively do their job.

 

I like that they brought out some of these things with her rather than have the regular crew make the mistakes, and Meta did a great job of letting you know when it really got under her skin.

[mstaken]

I totally agree with the fondness for Jordan! I love that she had an actual personality, how she was shown to be (gasp) imperfect yet still ultimately smart and competent, and how she added a certain edge and energy to our (IMUO!) somewhat flatly and unrealistically perfect, vanilla-ish team that IMO had been missing since the departure of the (also flawed and imperfect) Gideon and Elle and since Rossi became a blandly agreeable, "go team!", just-another-dully-perfect-member-of-the-family after a  promising first few episodes of being edgy and arrogant and stubborn. I also hold the UO that her friendship with Emily was, for me, more convincing, authentic and interesting in just a few episodes than any of the other female friendships depicted on the show across several seasons. 

[zannej]

SparedTurkey, I sent you a PM in answer to your question. I didn't dislike Jordan, but I was never overly fond of her either. I admit that I didn't like how she snapped at Morgan about something-- I can't remember what it was, but I felt she was jumping on him for no rational reason. I would have to go watch those episodes again. It is sad that Hotch got on her for lying to some family members but later on he doesn't seem to care if people lie. It's also sad that they went out of their way to show how hard JJ's job is and then they end up dropping it like its not that important.

[SSAHotchner]

I liked Jordan, too. I think that since we knew from the get-go that she was temporary it was easier to accept her. But still, I think she worked well and was likeable. I didn't mind her jumping on Morgan, because I do find him to be arrogant at times. And the situation was that it was her first solo case and she was unsure and apprehensive. His stepping in while the client was present, was stepping on her toes. I loved her scenes with Prentiss in 52 Pickup. I liked that Jordan showed both vulnerability and strength and that she was concerned over her ability to handle the job and wanted to make sure that Hotch appreciated all that JJ did for the team when she left.

 

As for Gideon, I'm sure that my displeasure at Mandy's leaving and his reasons have colored my opinion of the character. But there were many episodes where I felt he overacted. One that comes to mind is his mugging in the scenes with the prisoner in Lessons Learned. But he's gone, so I'm not going to keep rehashing this. There were things that I liked about the character, too, and of course the writing was so much better in the early days.

 

I refuse to believe anything bad about Thomas' treatment of the cast and crew unless someone can provide some concrete proof of it and not just speculation. They seem to really get along well both off and onscreen. He never comes across as a prima donna in any interviews or appearances. Why would they keep asking him to direct if he were difficult? Just my thoughts.

[SparedTurkey]

 

I refuse to believe anything bad about Thomas' treatment of the cast and crew unless someone can provide some concrete proof of it and not just speculation. They seem to really get along well both off and onscreen. He never comes across as a prima donna in any interviews or appearances. Why would they keep asking him to direct if he were difficult? Just my thoughts.

To be honest, everyone has bad days and if there was one incident, back in the early days, I wouldn't be shocked. And it would take two to tango, as they say, anyway. I understand TG's ex-manager has really fanned these flames, and while I am sure there is some degree of exaggeration involved in his lawsuit, given TG's and MP's history together, I don't think it is out of the realm of possibility that something happened. Of course, this is not to say I think TG is a rage-aholic on the set who has constantly terrorised everyone, cast and crew, for 10 years (of course, no one else is saying this either). And really, one incident like this doesn't make someone the worst person ever.

 

Back on topic - I love the Jordan love/not-dislike.

 

My UO - I never thought Gideon was a particularly good mentor for Reid. Making the team introduce him as 'Dr Reid' was ridiculous behaviour.

 

I really dislike Morgan and Morgan centric episodes. I fast-forward Profiler-Profiled and only watch Physics Magic and Reid at Morgan's family's house. I never again watched 25 to Life (I think that was the slow-clap episode).

[SSAHotchner]

To be honest, everyone has bad days and if there was one incident, back in the early days, I wouldn't be shocked. And it would take two to tango, as they say, anyway. I understand TG's ex-manager has really fanned these flames, and while I am sure there is some degree of exaggeration involved in his lawsuit, given TG's and MP's history together, I don't think it is out of the realm of possibility that something happened. Of course, this is not to say I think TG is a rage-aholic on the set who has constantly terrorised everyone, cast and crew, for 10 years (of course, no one else is saying this either). And really, one incident like this doesn't make someone the worst person ever.

 

Back on topic - I love the Jordan love/not-dislike.

 

My UO - I never thought Gideon was a particularly good mentor for Reid. Making the team introduce him as 'Dr Reid' was ridiculous behaviour.

 

I really dislike Morgan and Morgan centric episodes. I fast-forward Profiler-Profiled and only watch Physics Magic and Reid at Morgan's family's house. I never again watched 25 to Life (I think that was the slow-clap episode).

I thought Gideon was an okay mentor for Reid because he seemed to genuinely care about him. I liked that he wanted Reid to be treated with respect. He earned those degrees, and, although he was young and inexperienced in some ways, his intellect was instrumental in solving so many cases. I hate that they have tried to portray Garcia as a genius in later seasons and that they use her computer searches in place of Reid's mind more often these days.

 

I don't care for Morgan-centric episodes, either, but I love physics magic. I don't watch 25 to Life. I call it "The Hotchless Episode." :)

[SparedTurkey]

 

I thought Gideon was an okay mentor for Reid because he seemed to genuinely care about him. I liked that he wanted Reid to be treated with respect. He earned those degrees, and, although he was young and inexperienced in some ways, his intellect was instrumental in solving so many cases. I hate that they have tried to portray Garcia as a genius in later seasons and that they use her computer searches in place of Reid's mind more often these days.

I think Gideon liked Reid and wanted everyone to respect him, but I think he had a self-defeating method. Reid was an agent, presumably had completed all necessary FBI-training requirements. But I thought Gideon making everyone introduce him as Dr Reid was a way of nullifying that, almost painting him as something different and not a "real" agent. Yes Reid was young, but so are a lot of agents/cops etc. I get that, I guess, it was to remind the audience that he was a genius, but it just rubs me the wrong way. Why not introduce him as Agent Reid? He wasn't a consultant, he wasn't a tag-a-long ala Jane in the Mentalist. This is why I like Rossi a lot more, he seemed to respect Reid as an agent (after he got over being irritated by all team members, you know, breathing in his general vicinity. hehe).

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I think Gideon liked Reid and wanted everyone to respect him, but I think he had a self-defeating method. Reid was an agent, presumably had completed all necessary FBI-training requirements.

Actually, in one of the Seaver episodes, Reid says that allowances were made for him to join the Bureau, specifically as it pertained to the physical requirements of the job in addition to the marksmanship regulations. Not that he wasn't qualified otherwise, and I don't really like the idea because it makes him look "less than", but that's what was said.

[SparedTurkey]

 

Actually, in one of the Seaver episodes, Reid says that allowances were made for him to join the Bureau, specifically as it pertained to the physical requirements of the job in addition to the marksmanship regulations. Not that he wasn't qualified otherwise, and I don't really like the idea because it makes him look "less than", but that's what was said.

Ah, see, I fully admit to not watching the show particularly closely in the later seasons (post season 5 really). I just remembered to LDSK where he was doing his firearm training. But, in any case, it's not like any local LEOs ever deeply questioned the nitty gritty details of Reid's employment, but were always quick to ask 'Doctor?'. Just intro him as Agent Reid, like they did Morgan/Prentiss/Seaver and stop making him the odd one out.

[normasm]

Turkey, they sometimes introduced him as "SSA Dr. Reid." I always was OK with that. (PhDs seem to always want you to call the letters out somehow). But I felt a particular swell of pride on Reid's behalf when, after he talked Samantha down in Uncanny Valley, Rossi looked over at him and said, "Nice work, Agent Reid." Aw.

[zannej]

I admit that I try to pretend that the stuff Reid said to Seaver in "What Happens At Home" is not actually canon and that he was exaggerating. I was extremely pissed off that they took Reid down several pegs by making it seem like he was so inept that he couldn't qualify and that extra exceptions had to be made-- and the sole reason they did it was to try to validate why it would be ok for Seaver to be let in and make exceptions for her AND to make it seem like she was so badass because she could do the obstacle course well. The part about anything that wasn't book-learned REALLY pissed me off because Reid's level of genius goes beyond what you can learn in a book. It involves problem-solving, pattern recognition, observation skills, and comprehension. They basically just tore him down to make it seem like he just memorizes stuff. That is not genius. I know people who can memorize things very well but they are dumb as stumps when it comes to actual comprehension and problem solving. It just showed that the writer for that episode doesn't actually understand what a genius is.

 

I really hate it when they dumb someone down or make them weaker to make another character look stronger or better. In WWE its called "putting (someone) over".

 

I still think it would be funny if they introduced Reid as SSA Dr. Reid. I do know that the Dr thing has confused some people. There was someone on another forum who was arguing with people about Reid and they said "But he's not actually an FBI agent..." as a reason for him not being out in the field. The person was new to the show and because they called him Dr and didn't include him in a lot of stuff, the person really thought that he was just a consultant or something.

 

Also, I did note that in LDSK, Reid mentioned that he "barely passed" his previous firearms qualification. So I do think he actually passed at the academy-- otherwise he would not be allowed to carry a weapon.

 

Am I the only one that would like to see the cops actually apprehend someone while the team is getting ready to go out to capture them?

[SSAHotchner]

I admit that I try to pretend that the stuff Reid said to Seaver in "What Happens At Home" is not actually canon and that he was exaggerating. I was extremely pissed off that they took Reid down several pegs by making it seem like he was so inept that he couldn't qualify and that extra exceptions had to be made-- and the sole reason they did it was to try to validate why it would be ok for Seaver to be let in and make exceptions for her AND to make it seem like she was so badass because she could do the obstacle course well. The part about anything that wasn't book-learned REALLY pissed me off because Reid's level of genius goes beyond what you can learn in a book. It involves problem-solving, pattern recognition, observation skills, and comprehension. They basically just tore him down to make it seem like he just memorizes stuff. That is not genius. I know people who can memorize things very well but they are dumb as stumps when it comes to actual comprehension and problem solving. It just showed that the writer for that episode doesn't actually understand what a genius is.

 

I really hate it when they dumb someone down or make them weaker to make another character look stronger or better. In WWE its called "putting (someone) over".

 

I still think it would be funny if they introduced Reid as SSA Dr. Reid. I do know that the Dr thing has confused some people. There was someone on another forum who was arguing with people about Reid and they said "But he's not actually an FBI agent..." as a reason for him not being out in the field. The person was new to the show and because they called him Dr and didn't include him in a lot of stuff, the person really thought that he was just a consultant or something.

 

Also, I did note that in LDSK, Reid mentioned that he "barely passed" his previous firearms qualification. So I do think he actually passed at the academy-- otherwise he would not be allowed to carry a weapon.

 

Am I the only one that would like to see the cops actually apprehend someone while the team is getting ready to go out to capture them?

I agree, Zannej, that the lines he had with Seaver were more about justifying her presence in the BAU than his own. It was ridiculous to put that in the script, just as it was ridiculous that Seaver would be a part of the BAU before or after graduating from the academy.  Is it my imagination that after Seaver came along they stopped having Reid at the apprehension of the unsubs? I know there was a change in show runner, too, but how many episodes have there been since season 6 where Reid seems to disappear at the end?

 

I agree with you, too, about letting the cops take some of the unsubs. It's ridiculous when they have some of the BAU team rushing in to apprehend the unsub in only Kevlar vests and then have them being followed by a SWAT team in full gear. Gotta see those pretty faces and Morgan's bulging muscles.

[zannej]

Yeah, I really want to see the team actually wear the full SWAT gear at least once. I know they are "cheating" for TV, but it bugs me. Although it doesn't bug me as much as watching CSI type stuff where the women have their hair hanging down when they are handling evidence. Realistically their hair would be pulled back and covered to prevent them from contaminating evidence.

 

And yeah, they did stop having Reid participate in the apprehending. He just sort of disappeared and most of the team didn't even seem to notice. I think I'll fanwank that his health issues were causing him to have digestive problems and he was just in the bathroom all those times.

Edited August 30, 2014 by zannej

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Me, too and me, too!! It bothered me that the woman was nearly glorified at the end, when she was just doing what any decent human/mother should do to protect her child from a monster.

At the risk of saying something disagreeable, normasm, I don't think Sarah Jean was glorified at all, and if she was, then it was no more so than, say, Nathan Harris, who actually did have murder in his heart despite his lack of having acted on it. The fact that he was so terrified of what he might be capable of that he reached out to Reid for help IMO presented him as, if not sympathetic, than at least someone who knew he might not be able to stop himself from hurting people. His slashing of his own wrists to prevent himself from attacking that prostitute meant that he would rather die than hurt someone else, as Sarah Jean was willing to die to keep her son's innocence intact. Mind you, I was sympathetic to Nathan's plight, but should I have been when he was trying to kill himself instead of killing someone else? Isn't that what any decent human should do?

Edited August 30, 2014 by Cobalt Stargazer

[normasm]

Cobalt, I totally respect your take on it, i just held back for a long time because i thought nobody agreed with me about the episode.

 

Yes, but Nathan was trying not to become a murderer, he was fighting his urges as best he could. That's heroic, in my book, but yes, he was a potential monster. I don't remember Ride perfectly, but she was not the monster (not the sick one, like Nathan), she enabled the monster. When what he did came too close to her for comfort, she went momma bear and got the kid out of there. Out of guilt, she took the rap, somewhat to protect the child, but also to masochistically punish herself. I think part of what she did in acquiescing to the "dual serial killer" misnomer, was to be sure, to escort him to justice. But, in my book someone who is there while this stuff is going on and doesn't flee with her child, is at the least not very strong. At the most, she's complicit in the murders he did under her eye. This is my take, of course. I know you disagree, and I'm ready to hear your defense of her. (I am never offended if someone disagrees with my opinion)

[SparedTurkey]

 

At the risk of saying something disagreeable, normasm, I don't think Sarah Jean was glorified at all, and if she was, then it was no more so than, say, Nathan Harris, who actually did have murder in his heart despite his lack of having acted on it. The fact that he was so terrified of what he might be capable of that he reached out to Reid for help IMO presented him as, if not sympathetic, than at least someone who knew he might not be able to stop himself from hurting people. His slashing of his own wrists to prevent himself from attacking that prostitute meant that he would rather die than hurt someone else, as Sarah Jean was willing to die to keep her son's innocence intact. Mind you, I was sympathetic to Nathan's plight, but should I have been when he was trying to kill himself instead of killing someone else? Isn't that what any decent human should do?

I don't think Nathan Harris was glorified, but the difference there is that Harris hadn't actually killed anyone. He, technically, wasn't a 'bad guy' and there may be an argument somewhere that in knowing he had to get help may ultimately prevent him from ever committing a crime. Certainly you can be sympathetic to someone who isn't a serial killer/murder/rapist and is more afraid of his own mind.

 

The thing with Sarah Jean, and it has been awhile since I watched the episode, but was she given the death penalty just for murdering her son, or her role in her husband's activities? Because honestly, when I watched it, it was clear to me she knew what her husband was doing and should have been punished for that. I agree with normasm that she wasn't heroic, she was an enabler for a monster. And given her role in the crime, being glorified - having the lead character sympathise and cry over her - was just too much. And just because she wanted to protect her son that makes her a saint?

 

But ultimately, given she didn't kill her son (and i am presuming here that that was her death penalty crime), I thought it was ridiculous that Gideon would let her die for it. Letting her martyr herself for no good reason is a joke. To protect her son? Please. It's not like the public would crucify the child, and if his adoptive parents were any good, the kid would have been fine. And I thought it was a really shitty thing for Gideon to let happen.

Edited August 31, 2014 by SparedTurkey

[ForeverAlone]

I just can't with Riding the Lightning. I can't find any sympathy for the character of Sarah Jean, nor do I think this was some noble sacrifice on her part. What pissed me off is that Gideon knew that she didn't commit the crimes she was being executed for, but allowed it to happen anyway. There is nothing noble about the state executing an innocent person (or at least someone who did not commit capital crimes), and it pissed me off that Gideon allowed it to happen, and somehow the audience is supposed to think this it was a good thing. NO, the state should NOT be executing people who haven't committed the crimes they are being executed for. It is not the state's responsibility to "protect" Sarah Jean's son in that manner. It is their responsibility to execute people who are actually supposed to be executed (granted I have ambivalent opinions on capital punishment, but I am arguing in the sense that execution was legal in this state). And it is Gideon's duty as a public law enforcement officer to not allow an innocent person to be executed. The writing seemed so blatantly manipulative to tug at the audience's heartstrings, because we are supposed to feel sympathy or support for Sarah's "sacrifice". Oh hell no. 

[normasm]

Gideon didn't "allow" anything. Even an FBI agent can't halt an execution that the governor of a state has ordered. Only the highest court above that which imposed the sentence of death and set the date (usually an appeals court, in extreme cases, the Supreme Court) can stop an execution. Gideon had no power to do that.

[SparedTurkey]

The whole point of Morgan and Elle running around was to prove she didn't commit the crime. They found the evidence. IMO Gideon had a responsibility to at least try to get a stay of execution. No he didn't convict her or set the time and place for it. And he can't arbitrarily decide anything. But the governor of the state can. And considering there was evidence suggesting she didn't do the crime means that Gideon should have done something. He has a duty to uphold the law. Regardless of whether or not his actions succeed. If Sarah Jean wanted to die, she can go ahead. But not at the state's expense and for a crime she didn't commit. Admittedly, I'm surprised Hotch didn't try anything, but then, I guess the episode wasn't about him. Of course this is moot if she was being executed for her other actions.

 

@ForeverAlone - you expressed my thoughts much much better than I did.

[zannej]

I don't remember all of the details, but from my recollection (which could easily be wrong), I thought that she actually did NOT know about her husband killing the women until after the fact and it was too late. I know a lot of people ask how someone can be married to a person and not know they are a killer, but it happens. They are too close and too emotionally involved to be objective. I think she may have expected that her husband would try to kill her as well. Did she testify against him? I can't remember.

 

I think the deal was that she actually was NOT complicit in any of the crimes but she knew the public would blame her. She also felt guilty for not having realized what her husband was doing (at least that's what I remember).... If she didn't just find out after the fact and was a ware, she might have been too afraid to come forward. I really can't remember..

 

I actually have a different take on it and I can see her thought process-- even if she wasn't right or accurate, it goes on what she was thinking. In her mind, maybe if she fled with her child, the police would still implicate her and the son would be dragged into all of it and he would be confused and then people would pick on him about it. He'd likely be hounded by press and maybe ridiculed in school when he was older- and he'd always have the knowledge that his father was a serial killer looming over him. We saw how that haunted Seaver. In Sara Jean's mind, the knowledge of his father's crimes could have scarred her child for life and possibly ruined his life. Having seen how the press sometimes hounds victims and the family members of killers, I think its reasonable to understand that she believed that would happen. Also, she came to terms with dying long before the day of the execution. I think she didn't know what to do if she lived and she was afraid that her son would hate her. I can understand her decision in that light.

 

Even if Gideon had made it to the governor with the info, there is no guarantee that the governor would have actually halted the execution. It's tough to tell what the right call was in that situation. I think that ultimately, Gideon chose to let Sara Jean have what she wanted and spare her son from the humiliation and upheaval. At the same time, he felt guilty.

 

I do wonder if he felt guilty about not stepping in sooner when Reid was on drugs...