S04.E09: The Watchers On The Wall 2014.06.08

[Overwhelming No]

Mr. Boo and I usually re-watch the show the next night, but haven't yet re-watched this week.  Thanks to those who reminded me why Olly's killing of Ygritte was poetic justice.  All I could think about previously was Styr telling Olly he was going to eat his parents.

 

Frankly, as long as Stry and Ygritte are pushing daisies, I'm good.

 

 

 

Ghost, may you live long and prosper...maybe even have some puppies...

 

Ghost puppies!   Dibs!

[WhiteStumbler]

Edd (shoveling at Crasters): Ah, look, more shit. I was starting to wonder what to do with the rest of me day.

Pip was sort of a non-entity Red Shirt for me, but I had hopes that Grenn would start his own story. But, "giant attack". (sigh)

He didn't even have a chance to tell some poignant back story before his (admittedly noble) death.

[Pallas]

He didn't even have a chance to tell some poignant back story before his (admittedly noble) death.

 

We'll speak of it when he returns.  

[gingerella]

We'll speak of it when he returns.

Shhhh, we shan't speak of this..it is known...

[DirewolfPup]

This week: Revenge 101 (shot thru the heart, and you're to blame).

 

You (Ygritte/Jon) give looove a bad name.

 

Ned's not a very good Night's Watchman. We didn't even see him fight during the battle. Entitled jerk if you ask me.

[WhiteStumbler]

Maester Aemon did say something about 'headless men manning The Wall', but I'm not sure this is what he meant.

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

I had hopes that Grenn would start his own story. But, "giant attack". (sigh)

He didn't even have a chance to tell some poignant back story before his (admittedly noble) death.

 

Well, there was that Farm Girl.

[Anothermi]

Maester Aemon did say something about 'headless men manning The Wall', but I'm not sure this is what he meant.

Yikes! No memory of that.  Do your search magic, WS, and quote the Season and Episode so I can look it up.  (or better yet?  Magic up the transcription.  You know you can.  ;-P)

 

Well, there was that Farm Girl. - RadiantAerynSun

And another one I can't recall.  You two are making me feel lacking in the random-minor-factoids department.  (And I used to think I ruled it.  Guess not!) Who-What-Where was the Farm Girl mentioned?  The "who's done IT?" convo at the Wall back in S01?

[WhiteStumbler]

anothermi: I was just messing around with DirewolfPup's complaint about the ineffectiveness of Ned as a member of the Nights Watch last episode. But it was inspired by Aemon, who did have one of the better quotes from S4E1 Two Swords...

Maester Aemon: If we beheaded every ranger who lay with a girl, the Wall would be manned by headless men.

[Anothermi]

See?  I knew you could do it.  And even though you had to explain it? - it's still funny.  

[janjan]

where was Ned during the battle?  Have we even seen him at the Wall since Joffrey had him sentenced there?

Oh but we have. As in, "heads, spikes, walls." Oh wait, that was George Bush. Wrong wall, too.

 

When Tyrion was at the Wall back in S2, trying to show Jon how not to be such a snot-nosed snot, we got back stories from Pyp and Grenn. One was at the Wall for stealing a round of cheese, the other was banished after resisting the sexual advances of his lord. I think the latter was Grenn. Does anybody remember?

 

ps - No disrespect meant to our former Prez. In case anybody missed the kerfulffle at the time, that was indeed the head of George Bush next to Ned's at the KL wall. Show runners found it left over from some other show and figured, Hey, a head's a head.

http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/us-news-blog/2012/jun/14/game-of-thrones-george-w-bush-head

[Anothermi]

One was at the Wall for stealing a round of cheese, the other was banished after resisting the sexual advances of his lord. I think the latter was Grenn. Does anybody remember? - janjan

WhiteStumbler will know! He knows everything (almost).

 

But, as far as backstories go?  A little thin on the ground I'd say.  That is possibly the biggest weakness of the Wall plotline.  The characters could be so much better.  Hell, Edd-the- downer guy has a more fleshed out character than Pyp or Grenn because he got to say things as his own character, not necessarily to push the plot forward.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Anothermi

[stillshimpy]

Pretty sure no one was actually arrested for stealing a wheel of cheese (to feed himself and his sister, in Tyrion's version), but rather when asked about it, it turned out his Lord tried to put the moves on him and he wouldn't have it.  He didn't want to tell that story to (most of) the Men of the Wall, so he said he'd stolen cheese to feed himself and his sister.  

[janjan]

Pretty sure no one was actually arrested for stealing a wheel of cheese (to feed himself and his sister, in Tyrion's version), but rather when asked about it, it turned out his Lord tried to put the moves on him and he wouldn't have it.  He didn't want to tell that story to (most of) the Men of the Wall, so he said he'd stolen cheese to feed himself and his sister. - Shimp

Oh right, that was it.

 

Anothermi is right that more back story would have made the Wall plot line more interesting.

 

But the front story does have some (meager) potential: Sam saw Slynt cowering in the storeroom, so something must come of that. Right? RIGHT?!?! Please don't drop that ball, Show.

[DirewolfPup]

The farm girl story was back when the watch was at Crasters the first time. Grenn, Sam, and Edd (?) were talking about random things. Grenn said that he grew up playing with a farm girl. As they grew up the playing "changed" and he tried to "have her" as much as he could.  I believe that's the same conversation that happened with the you-shit-when-you-die talk.

[Anothermi]

The farm girl story was back when the watch was at Crasters the first time. Grenn, Sam, and Edd (?) were talking about random things. Grenn said that he grew up playing with a farm girl. As they grew up the playing "changed" and he tried to "have her" as much as he could.  I believe that's the same conversation that happened with the you-shit-when-you-die talk.

OK.  That last bit may have been why I don't remember it.  LIkely would have tuned the shit-when-you-die convo down to "mute".

[abelard]

Omg I'm so glad that we didn't get more backstory to anyone at the Wall besides Sam and of course Jon (oh and Maester Aemon).  I pegged the lot of them as Redshirts from the start and it made losing them easier, though I'll miss Jon just frankly having some people around that he trusts (Pyp and Grenn).  I don't want to know anything about Edd.  I already like the actor's face and voice so I don't want to have any additional reasons to invest in the character.  I'm hoping that will make it hurt less when he's eaten by a mammoth, giant, Thenn, or WW.

[ChocButterfly]

Men, I can't even tell either of them apart, Pip, Gren or Edd. Actually, I didn't even remember their names if you guys hadn't mentioned them,I don't care either. But I do remember the molesting Lord story. That was fucked up.

[WhiteStumbler]

Pip: Slight, dark of hair, unsure if he could kill 1000 Wildlings. Took an arrow to the throat after his first kill, so he was correct.

Gren: Red haired, easy smile, reasonable fighter, led the lower gate defense contingent against a giant, after first reciting the NW vows. "We shall never see his like again. And now his watch is ended."

Edd: Rather bleak outlook, but great gallows humor. At Crasters Keep he said of his Brother on a funeral pyre "I never knew Bannon could smell so good". I hope he is around for a while. He has nearly as much snark as Tyrion.

[janjan]

Pip: Slight, dark of hair, unsure if he could kill 1000 Wildlings. Took an arrow to the throat after his first kill, so he was correct.

It was Ygritte who killed him, wasn't it?

[90PercentGravity]

Yes, Ygritte killed him. The blocking of that scene was really weird. It made it seem like she was standing a few feet away on the same landing. But, if she was, why wouldn't she have killed Sam? I think she must have been across the yard on another landing, but we saw her full body, so that doesn't make a lot of sense either.

[abelard]

Edd: Rather bleak outlook, but great gallows humor. At Crasters Keep he said of his Brother on a funeral pyre "I never knew Bannon could smell so good". I hope he is around for a while. He has nearly as much snark as Tyrion.

 

I actually think, whenever I see/hear Edd, "He's like Bronn, but nobler!" (meaning, Edd actually gives a s**t about the Wall and the NW and a few of the brothers, I think).  Which means, yeah, I'm prepared for him to become snacky snacks for some species or other in the next episode.

[Pallas]

I actually think, whenever I see/hear Edd, "He's like Bronn, but nobler!" (meaning, Edd actually gives a s**t about the Wall and the NW and a few of the brothers, I think).  Which means, yeah, I'm prepared for him to become snacky snacks for some species or other in the next episode.

 

Maybe he has King's Blood!

[AlphaLine]

Also this episode confirms that the hole in the wall where Sam and Bran passed through last season is a plot hole and not a regular hole. Since they never talked about sealing it, and while it's supposed to be 'secret', it's just huge, and has no door even, so anyone would be able to find it.. if the plot required it to, I guess.

[WhiteStumbler]

Maybe he has King's Blood!

Shhhhhhh. Don't tell Mel! She loves herself some Royal Platelets.

[Pallas]

Shhhhhhh. Don't tell Mel! She loves herself some Royal Platelets.

 

We could always tell her, then when she leaves Shireen behind  (Davos volunteering to baby-sit) and shows up at the Wall with Stannis, we could let them in on the joke, and all share a good laugh.

[Anothermi]

With a bit of distance, I remembered something from early in this episode: the scouting/provoking wilding party had a Thenn warg in their party (lucky for them 'cuz Jon got rid of Orell, so having the cannabal's join them had it's up-side). This one was an Owl.  It's surprises me that someone in the NW (I'm looking at your Sam/Jon) didn't notice the presence of an owl in the middle of battle preparations.  

 

Initially I couldn't quite figure out who the warg was at the Wilding camp because the way they showed him looked (to me) like it was just the head of some poor Thenn on a stick (I thought perhaps he had pissed off the others BIGTIME and he became dinner). BUT the opaque white eyes kept me grounded and thankfully the Show allowed us to see him opening them.  

 

Which makes me wonder if there may be a lot more wargs north of the wall than I might have assumed.  Although we didn't see another flying creature, it is not impossible that Mance has anointed a new warg and was also aware of the NW battle preparations. I don't know.  The timing of the south-of the-wall Wilding attack seemed to hinge on knowing when the majority of the NW were on top of the Wall engaged with fighting the attack front from north-of-the-wall.  So I guess only the Thenn warg was needed for that. 

 

But, now I wonder about how the Thenn's came to join up the Ygritte's party.  It seemed clear that Mance had sent them, but did he do it without knowing they would need re-inforcements?  I guess that is possible.  Or, conversely, perhaps he used the Thenn warg to learn how the Ygritte advance party was doing and sent the Thenns - leaving himself warg-less. Not a good thing for his battle plans.

 

So, we've got two wilding warg "daemons" (stealing from His Dark Materials books) at loose ends - due to the deaths of Orell and, this episode, the Thenn warg .  Do they just revert to normal animals (birds in this case)? We never get to see what happens to them.  They don't seem like the Stark Direwolves  who act a lot more like the Pullman-defined "daemons" - as an integral part of the person they are associated with.  And 'though Bran's direwolf occasionally gets warged, that is not his only connection with Bran. 

 

Sorry if this is not making much sense, it's following up on a forum discussion earlier about what happens if a warged creature is killed while inhabited by a warg. I'm leaning toward warged creatures just being a convenient tool/vessel and not having much of a connection with the warg-er.  So, if the creature is killed, the warg-er would just come back into their own head. 

Edited June 13, 2014 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

anothermi, I'm not sure if that guy was warging the owl. I definitely noticed ol Blue Eyes who did look like his head was hanging on a spike, and I did notice the owl, but usually when an animal is used for warging, don't we usually see things through the animals eyes/perspective? I don't remember seeing that with the owl, though it's possible I blinked or hid behind my pillow that I was clutching in a  white knuckled death grip because I was so on edge during that entire prelude to battle scene.  I dunno, I just remember we always seem to see through the animals eyes and perspective and I don't remember that with this owl, though I remember thinking, "ohhh, an owl, I love owls!" so yanno, there's that...

 

Also, like you, I just assume a warged animal just continues on its merry way after the warg dies. I wouldn't even think the animal knows its being warged. Probably wakes up with a killer headache wondering what the hell just happened and if it's fur or feathers are still on.

[Llywela]

I thought the Thenn was warging the owl as a means of keeping watch on the Wall - it was the same owl that Gilly recognised as a sign of danger in Mole's Town. We didn't see the creature's perspective when that other Wildling warg (Orell?) was warging it. That's mostly reserved for Bran and his direwolf, as far as I recall.

[Pallas]

Fascinating spec, anothermi.  Replying in the Completely Unsullied thread.  

[Anothermi]

anothermi, I'm not sure if that guy was warging the owl. I definitely noticed ol Blue Eyes who did look like his head was hanging on a spike, and I did notice the owl, but usually when an animal is used for warging, don't we usually see things through the animals eyes/perspective? I don't remember seeing that with the owl, though it's possible I blinked or hid behind my pillow that I was clutching in a  white knuckled death grip because I was so on edge during that entire prelude to battle scene.  I dunno, I just remember we always seem to see through the animals eyes and perspective and I don't remember that with this owl, though I remember thinking, "ohhh, an owl, I love owls!" so yanno, there's that...

 

Also, like you, I just assume a warged animal just continues on its merry way after the warg dies. I wouldn't even think the animal knows its being warged. Probably wakes up with a killer headache wondering what the hell just happened and if it's fur or feathers are still on.

"Honest, I was one my way back to the nest with a big, fat worm for Jr. and I just blacked out!  I don't know how I got the smell of fermented berries on my breath!" - random bird

 

Although we didn't see things through the eyes of the warg-ee this time, I found there was enough pointed scene cuts and pointed focus on the owl that it was clear it was warged.  First, there is a close up of the owl landing on top of the NW elevator (at the end of the Sam/Jon sex-talk-redux scene) and looking around and the next scene was of the bodyless Thenn with white eyes. We've seen Orell with white eyes when he is warging as well.  I don't remember if Bran has ever been shown with the tell-tale white eyes, but he is the one we usually see things from the warged animals POV.  

 

And second, we had the two blasts of the horn,  then the scene cut to the body-less Thenn opening his eyes and announcing "it's time" and cut back to the Wall where the owl is seen taking off.

 

That's what announced to me that the owl was being warged by the Thenn. 

 

ETA: Oops. Llywela kinda covered most of my points except the pointless joke.  I'm a slow composer. 

Edited June 13, 2014 by Anothermi

[WhiteStumbler]

I thought we had seen the Thenn warg earlier when they first met up with Tormund's group? When Tormund says "how did you find us?", the Thenn leader indicated the Thenn warg who has an owl on his (her?) shoulder, and then the owl flaps away. The Thenn leader says "You didn't see us coming? Lost your warg?"

 

As for what happens to the animal after the warg dies, Jon wondered about that as well as us last season...

 

Jon: What happens to your eagle after I kill you? Does he drift away like a kite with his strings cut or does he just flop dead to the ground? (S3E5 Kissed By Fire)

[Llywela]

 I don't remember if Bran has ever been shown with the tell-tale white eyes, but he is the one we usually see things from the warged animals POV.  

From memory, I think yes - I have distinct memories of seeing Bran's eyes rolling back into his head and glazing over all white and glassy when he wargs, it's the primary visual cue used to show warging, I think.

 

I thought we had seen the Thenn warg earlier when they first met up with Tormund's group? When Tormund says "how did you find us?", the Thenn leader indicated the Thenn warg who has an owl on his (her?) shoulder, and then the owl flaps away. The Thenn leader says "You didn't see us coming? Lost your warg?"

...I'd completely forgotten that exchange. I think I blank out a lot of the stuff with the Thenns because: gross cannibals. Ditto gross flayers, which is why I blank out the Boltons, too.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Llywela

[Anothermi]

Always a reliable source of Show information, WhiteStumbler.  I, too, didn't remember that, but the "lost your warg?" comment rings a bell.  

 

ETA:

 

From memory, I think yes - I have distinct memories of seeing Bran's eyes rolling back into his head and glazing over all white and glassy when he wargs, it's the primary visual cue used to show warging, I think. - Llywela

I remember seeing Bran's eyes rolling back into his head. I just can't recall seeing him with the completely white-eyed look. I agree, though, that it is the primary visual cue for "warning: condition!warging!" Edited June 13, 2014 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

And second, we had the two blasts of the horn,  then the scene cut to the body-less Thenn opening his eyes and announcing "it's time" and cut back to the Wall where the owl is seen taking off.

Actually, what I'd been meaning to ask about relates to just before the Thenn says, "it's time".  It seemed like the camera is in the Wildling camp, then pans upward and we see a hill/mountain top ridge with glowing red/orange behind it. It turns out it's Mance's fire burning just North of the Wall, but the Wildling advance team is just South of Castle Black and hence just South of the Wall. I was wondering how they could see the fire glow if it was down on the ground on the other side of the Wall because, yanno, that just aint logistically possible from the vantage point where the Wildling group had been camping out. A Show made it seem/appear that the Thenn awoke just after the camera pans upward and we see the glow of a presumed fire over the ridge, but since there is no way they could have actually seen that from the ground South of Castle Black, I guess I can see how the Thenn was warging the owl, and he saw through the owl's eyes, that the fire had been lit on the other side of the Wall...was the owl seen atop the Wall? I only remember seeing him on what I thought was a wall of the lower ground level of the castle...if he was on top of the Wall, then it all makes sense.

 

Hunky dory!

Edited June 13, 2014 by gingerella

[Anothermi]

Actually, what I'd been meaning to ask about relates to just before the Thenn says, "it's time".  It seemed like the camera is in the Wildling camp, then pans upward and we see a hill/mountain top ridge with glowing red/orange behind it. It turns out it's Mance's fire burning just North of the Wall, but the Wildling advance team is just South of Castle Black and hence just South of the Wall. I was wondering how they could see the fire glow if it was down on the ground on the other side of the Wall because, yanno, that just aint logistically possible from the vantage point where the Wildling group had been camping out. A Show made it seem/appear that the Thenn awoke just after the camera pans upward and we see the glow of a presumed fire over the ridge, but since there is no way they could have actually seen that from the ground South of Castle Black, I guess I can see how the Thenn was warging the owl, and he saw through the owl's eyes, that the fire had been lit on the other side of the Wall...was the owl seen atop the Wall? I only remember seeing him on what I thought was a wall of the lower ground level of the castle...if he was on top of the Wall, then it all makes sense.

 

Hunky dory!

Re: 1st bolded part.  That's how I saw it too.  The 2 blast horn...the wilding camp looking up the hill with the red/orange glow behind it...the Thenn warg opening his/her eyes.  What I remember thinking is "WoW! So that is what Mance meant with his Biggest!Bonfire!Ever! comment!"  When we actually saw the fire from the NW point of view it was basically a huge forest fire, and given that it was at night, it would have literally "lit up the sky".  That's what I think was being depicted by that shot.  Not that they could see the actual fire, but that they could see the sky was lit up and knew it would be Mance's fire. 

 

Re: the second bold bit, I mentioned in one of my posts that the 1st time we see the owl it is a focused shot of it landing on top of the elevator scaffolding as Sam was leaving the top of the wall  (after his chat about sex with Jon at the very beginning of the episode).  The scene then cut away to the Wilding camp with the body-less Thenn with white eyes in the foreground and the rest sitting around the fire. So, yeah, that's where the owl was located. 

(and I know this not from memory but, of course, by going back and reviewing the start of the episode. :-P)

[gingerella]

ahhh, anothermi, thanks for going back and rewatching the carnage so many times, I know I can only deal with one viewing and that's my personal limit!

 

I guess when I saw Mance's "biggest fire the North has ever seen", I felt very 'meh' about it. I live in an area where we have hellish fires and for me, that wasn't even moderately impressive. It was something that if I saw it in real life I'd think, "well at least it's small and contained thus fairly manageable!"  But whaddya gonna do?!

 

As for the owl, thanks for placing him at the top of the Wall for me. I thought that convo took place on the ground, which shows how much I missed by clutching my pillow to avert my eyes of horror.

[stillshimpy]

I felt very 'meh' about it. I live in an area where we have hellish fires and for me, that wasn't even moderately impressive. It was something that if I saw it in real life I'd think, "well at least it's small and contained thus fairly manageable!"  But whaddya gonna do?!

 

I know what you mean, and I had to remind myself that they don't have slurry to drop, or emergency vehicles arriving, or air-support and that a fire that size in an age where you can only fight them with buckets of waters, because these poor buggers don't even have hoses, would be terrifying and deadly.  

 

However, that's sort of a problem within the story, that I have to remind myself that "Oh yes, that's right, to them it would be a truly life threatening problem!" 

 

There are so many things in this show that I don't have to do that with though.  Like the Hound's Imbecile Bite, but then the show managed to underline that with talk of how it should be treated and the Hound being unable to bear that.  The fire at Blackwater scared the bejeebers out of me, but that might be because of the mix of fire and water.  I do think it was the way it was shot.  

 

Also, here's just something that doesn't quite work for the story at The Wall, so many of the men there have been sentenced to The Wall.  When they took over Craster's, they made friggin' Craster look like the preferable option.  Just saying that that sort of stuff matters when it comes to getting het up about depicted peril. I sort of have to care one way or the other.  Sometimes it would be a case of which side I want to die more, because it's this show, but here there are only a few characters at The Wall I really care about (and good going, show, you killed at least two of them...how wise in terms of story structure) and The Wildling Horde is primarily just annoying.  

 

I did ultimately feel for Ygritte, because she did love Jon, but her "I am a woman scorned! Feel my wrath!" gig just didn't really ever resonate with me. She did know who Jon was.  i always thought she actually knew that Jon's defection to the Wildlings was an act.  She saw his face after he killed Qorin and I thought she knew.  

 

Anyway, that's essentially my entire point.  It was a well-done episode.  Shot well, a big battle in which I got a sense of the scope.  It just was never going to really get me that much because of lack of emotional investment.  On the one side, Cannibals, on the other people billed to me as primarily "rapers" and those that weren't? Kind of bit it this episode or had been major tools prior to this, or are already old as dirt and blind to boot.  Then there's Sam and he really has changed a lot, but I can't really forget his original characterization to the point that I have a little trouble buying the hero bit.  

 

Then also, I really suspect that there will be some sort of "Let's come to an agreement" thing with Jon and Mance, because I just really doubt Jon is going to die, as much as I doubt Tyrion is going to die.  Out of those two stories, I was personally more invested in Tyrion's story.  

 

I've yet to rewatch this episode and am not sure that I will at any point.  Even though I did like Ygritte in a lot of ways, when she died, it felt a bit like justice vs. tragedy.  She'd killed that boy's father, one of the few characters immediately presented as loving, caring and trying to make the best of his meager life with a little happiness and they got that across with a sentence.  Ygritte killed him because he was there.  

 

I guess all I'm saying is that most of this episode felt like, "Yup, that about fits the situation."  I was glad Ollie saved Jon, because Jon was not about to be saving himself there.  

Edited June 14, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

That eloquently expresses my take on the ep, shimpy.  It advanced a plot A Show (is stuck with) knows is key to the saga, and made the best of what it had: a budget.

 

Watching it wasn't exactly like eating my vegetables before I liked vegetables.  It was more like, once again, sampling a vegetable I have never come to like, prepared in an interesting way by a cook I admire.  Al dente with a dash of oh!, and a bit of my!, and then maybe a sprinkling of a feisty cheese, finely grated just before the plate is served and previously fed to me in a savory sliver right off the knife?  Yes please, and thank you: this could do the trick!

 

And then.  "So...what do you think?"  "I think you're an incredible cook, and this is how (this loathsome plantlife) should always be prepared."

[abelard]

I haven't rewatched this episode yet and it's Saturday night already.  I think that alone says a lot.  Usually we rewatch almost as soon as we've finished watching the first time.  Like, we cannot wait to see everything again and catch some of the stuff we missed.  This time, I'm not sure I even care about the stuff I missed.

 

For me, the greatest depiction of a siege on film is the LOTR Two Towers' Helms Deep battle.  This ep was Helms Deep minus minus.  And this may sound silly, but I just saw the finale of this teen sci-fi show on The CW called "The 100," and the GoT Nights Watch battle was like The 100 season finale minus minus.  It's okay that this big battle ep was worse than one of the highest grossing films of all time, but it was also worse than a single ep of a CW show that had probably 1/100 the fx budget and 1/1000 the quality of source material. 

[AlphaLine]

Yeah, I agree.

This episode was basically a bad version of Helm's Deep, or a very bad version of 'Blackwater'- you can see that they tried to copy that episode but epically failed. And they forgot to put the conclusion!

[WhiteStumbler]

Rewatching Oathkeeper S4E4, when Jon is teaching the NW men sword fighting, he asks "let's see what you can do" and the little kid whose parents were killed steps forward. "I can fight... I was the best archer in our hamlet".

Wow. Beautiful place setting, Show.