S07.E01: Lessons

[Joe Hellandback]

And here we go, the final season of the greatest tv show of all!

The Good; Love Dawnies' first patrol and first day at SDH, so cool. The line up of baddies at the end is superb, they're so lucky they could get them all.

The Bad; Really dislike the scenes of the Potentials being killed, if it were anyone but Joss I'd say it was misogyny. Dawn seems to make a couple of friends at the end of the ep but they never occur again.

Best line; Dawn; (sadly, after Buffy has embarrassed her in front of the whole class) "I also have a sister"

Women good/men bad; The First as Warren very dismissive of Buffy

Jeez!; Even though it's only implied the zombie stabbing Dawn with the pencil is wince inducing. The killing of the potentials is also horrible.

Kinky dinky; Buffy comments on the hotness of Spike and Angel. The zombie guy wants to date Dawn, well she's already gone out with one dead guy and had a crush on another. Willow seems disappointed that Giles didn't put her in a dungeon. He asks her if she wants to be punished? (Surely if there was ever a time for Gillow this is it?)

Captain Subtext; Spike was once caned at school (presumably when human) Guantanamo Bay; A little anti-French racism from Anya.

Missing scenes; Reputedly they filmed a scene where Dawn decides to tell her real life story to her class, love to see that, roll on Buffy/Angel; Special Edition DVDs.

Apocalypses; 7,

Scoobies in bondage: Buffy: 8 Giles: 4 Cordy: 5 Will: 4 Jenny: 1 Angel: 4 Oz: 1 Faith: 3 Joyce: 1 Wes: 1 Xander; 2 Dawn; 4

Scoobies knocked out: Dawnie Buffy: 19 Giles: 12 Cordy: 6 Xander: 14 Will: 8 Jenny: 2 Angel: 6 Oz: 3 Faith: 1 Joyce: 3 Wes: 1 Anya;5 Dawn; 4 Tara; 1 Kills: 1 vamp for Buffy Buffy: 108 vamps, 58 demons, 6 monsters, 3 humans, 1 werewolf, 1 spirit warrior & a robot Giles: 8 vamps, 2 demon, 1 human, 1 god.

Cordy: 3 vamps, a demon Will: 6 vamps + 3 demons +1 fawn+1 human.

Angel: 3 vamps, 1 demon, 1 human Oz: 3 vamps, 1 zombie Faith: 16 vamps, 5 demons, 3 humans Xander: 6 vamps, 2 zombies, 1 a demon, Anya: 1 vamp and 1 a demon Riley; 18 vamps + 7 demons Spike; 8 vamps and 6 demons Buffybot; 2 vamps Tara; 1 demon Dawn; 1 vamp + 1 demon Scoobies go evil: Giles: 1 Cordy: 1 Will: 3 Jenny: 1 Angel: 1 Oz: 1 Joyce: 1 Xander: 4 Anya; 1 Dawn; 1 Buffy; 1

Alternate scoobies: Buffy: 8 Giles: 4 Cordy: 1 Will: 5 Jenny: 2 Angel: 3 Oz: 2 Joyce: 2 Xander: 4 Tara; 1 Dawn;1 Spike; 1 Anya; 2 Recurring characters killed: 12 Jesse, Flutie, Jenny, Kendra, Larry, Snyder, Professor Walsh, Forrest, McNamara, Joyce, Katrina, Tara

Sunnydale deaths; the 3 poor folks in the basement 97 Total number of scoobies: 3 the Dawnster is finally part of the Scoobies, about time too Xander, Buffy, Dawn Xander demon magnet: 5(6?) Preying Mantis Lady, Inca Mummy Girl, Drusilla, VampWillow, Anya (arguably Buffy & Faith with their demon essences?), Dracula? Scoobies shot: Giles: 2 Angel: 3 Oz: 4 Riley; 1 Buffy; 1 Tara; 1

Notches on Scooby bedpost: Giles: 2; Joyce & Olivia, possibly Jenny and 3xDraccy babes? Cordy: 1? Buffy: 4 confirmed; Angel, Parker, Riley, Spike. 1 possible, Dracula(?) Angel: 1;Buffy Joyce: 1;Giles, 2 possible, Ted and Dracula(?) Oz: 3; Groupie, Willow & Verucca Faith:2 ;Xander, Riley Xander: 2; Faith, Anya Willow: 2;Oz and Tara Riley; 3; Buffy, Sandy and unnamed vampwhore Spike; 2 Buffy and Anya Anya; 2 Spike and Xander

Spike; good or bad? Don't have to ask that any more, not now he has his soul back

Dawn in peril; 12 isn't she always?

Dawn the bashful virgin; 9

Questions and observations; The zombies articulate what a lot of Buffy critics have said over the years, that she allows a lot of people to die. Personally I agree with Buffy, they should shut up, she does her best. I always think of the RAF in the Battle of Britain, bombers get through, thousands die but it's still a victory. So lovely that Buffy can quit the DMP and work at the school, she seems so happy.

Now, Halfrek refers to her and Anya in the Crimean War which was 1853-6 decades BEFORE Spike became a vampire. This implies that there never was a Cecilly, there was only ever Halfrek assuming her guise who took revenge on William for some unknown party. Xander looks great in his suit.

Dawn gets a mobile phone, about bloody time too, CC had one in Welcome to the Hellmouth and then we never see one again for over 122eps, AI had them for 3 years. Dawn comments on the fact that being sired seems to automatically teach you Tae-Kwan-Do. What a shame we never meet The Coven. Buffy fears Dawn will start smoking, it's hardly going to stunt her growth. So who was the werewolf who killed one of the ghosts? Oz? Verruca? Like Spike's hair better in this one. Lovely to see Buffy get a 'thank you' hug from Kit, she does so much it's nice she get's some appreciation. Dawn still a bit bitter about the Normal Again thing. Buffy says ghosts can't touch, Phantom Dennis can. Dawn is bitten by a vamp, I think Xander is the only Scooby who never will be.

Now I always thought they didn't know this was going to be the last season until halfway through but to judge by Joss' comments on the commentary he always intended it to the be the last from the beginning.

Marks out of 10; 8/10

Fallen a little behind in my Angel review so I'll do 2 eps so we can catch up. 

Edited November 5, 2018 by Joe Hellandback

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

if it were anyone but Joss I'd say it was misogyny

If killing two female characters for shock value, turning one into psychotic killer hell-bent on destroying the world and setting the other on the degrading path of becoming Spikey's love bitch do not prove Joss' blatant misogyny, then I don't know what else does.

 

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

The Good; Love Dawnies' first patrol and first day at SDH, so cool.

The fact that they needed to "rebuild" ol' SunnyHell High is a sure sign of Team Joss having writer's block. If they really believed they could recapture or recreate the spirit of the three earlier seasons by simply bringing back SHS, man, they were totally delusional. Once again Xander was shown to be high on stupid pills: he knew damn well what lied beneath the "old SHS" and the threat it posed, he knew that it would definitely put Dawn's and other kids' lives at risk, and yet he willingly and mindlessly participated in the construction work.  Good writing, pals.

 

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Spike; good or bad? Don't have to ask that any more, not now he has his soul back

If having sooooooooooul alone made everyone good, our world would have been much better place to live in. Unfortunately being ensouled is not enough. Serial killers do have souls, after all. And how does having a sooooooul undermine Spike's past atrocities? Does that mean that all of the people Spike killed in the past aren't dead anymore? In which way having a soul makes Captain Peroxide a good character?
 

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

The zombies articulate what a lot of Buffy critics have said over the years, that she allows a lot of people to die. Personally I agree with Buffy, they should shut up, she does her best.

If Buffy really did her best, Angelus would have turned to dust in Innocence, and Spikey wouldn't have lived past season 4. Doing her best meant tracking down Drusilla and killing the murderer of Buffy's sister slayer either. Yes, Buffy cannot save every man or woman in town, but her screw-ups have little to with her inability, they have everything to do with growing indifference and disregard for human lives.

And last but not least: why couldn't they have sent Xander to accompany Willow in her trip to England since it was him (whether we like it or not) who succeeded in preventing Wicca from making her worst mistake, and not Giles? Why wasn't it obvious that Willow could have recovered faster having the person she knew the longest and best by her side? If Giles' presence didn't tarnish Willow's "lesbian street cred", how could Xander's presence alone do this?

Among the things I really don't like about season 7 is literally turning Xander into Dawnie's chauffer/nanny/bodyguard and Buffy's confidante/lackey. Xander doesn't belong in the Summers family, he belongs with his best friend.

Spoiler

Of course that wasn't as bad or pathetic as his constant attempts to make it up to Anya throughout the season and the overall continuation of the whole Xanya madness until the final ep. Sad.

[Halting Hex]

On 11/5/2018 at 7:20 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

The line up of baddies at the end is superb, they're so lucky they could get them all.

Well, it should be Angel instead of Drusilla (the WB was still objecting to out-of-network crossovers for a lead character), of course, and you can tell that Harry Groener was doing a play, because they didn't have him long enough to do a morphing effect on the Mayor, we just cut to him from Adam and to Drusilla from him.  And of course you have to wonder why the Mayor and the Master are even in the scene, since Spike has never met them.  If these are the real baddies, it's odd they'd join a plot against him, and if it's somebody impersonating them (as the First Evil did against Angel in Amends), why would they think that the images of strangers would make an effective psychological weapon?  Especially given that Spike's already apparently insane, and you don't really need to push his buttons that much.

Feels more like fan-service than anything necessary to the storytelling.  That said, the Master (or First!Master, or whomever Mark Metcalf is playing) calling Spike "a pathetic schmuck"? Never.Gets.Old.

Unfortunately, one scene does not an episode make, and the rest of this ep is slow and stupid and annoying.  The Courteous Zombies are a ridiculous excuse for antagonists, given how they stop "attacking" every time the plot needs them to, for no reason whatsoever.  Need Dawn to whip out her cell phone?  Suddenly the Zombies stop attacking.  Need to have a Spuffy moment to kiss up to those 'shippers?  Again, the fucking Zombies stop attacking.  You know, you guys would have a lot better chance of killing Buffy if you actually tried to kill Buffy.  I'm just saying.

And what's more repulsive, Buffy not caring that people may have died and she never even noticed it?  Buffy mocking the Zombies for being uncool losers (didn't this show use to be about the outsiders?) and not "hotties" like Angel and Spike?  Or Buffy seeing Spike for the first time in months, out of the blue and looking half-crazy, and letting her rapist fondle her face?  Vomit, vomit, and projectile vomit.  Sheesh.  (And as far as Buffy's disappearing moral code goes, apparently she's been letting Anya cast vengeance wishes all summer and hasn't lifted a finger to stop her?  Good gravy…)

I also really can't stand having Principal Wood "mistakenly" think that Buffy is Dawn's mother, just so Joss can shove in his stupid "mom-hair" joke.  Wood read Buffy's file; he knows she's 21. FFS.

It's nice that Joss was willing to shoot Giles's scenes at ASH's property in West England

Spoiler

(reputedly as a bribe to make Tony more amenable to doing the back half of the season in LA)

but wow, those are some useless Willow/Giles scenes.  (Although I suppose it is nice to see that Willow was so guilt-riddled that she willingly went with Giles even though she thought she was being taken to her execution.)  But it still annoys me that they cut the third W/G scene, the one that actually raised important questions:

Quote

Spoiler

GILES:  You're not ready to go back.

WILLOW:  Then why're you gonna make me?

Because Alyson Hannigan has a contract, that's why.  There's never any in-show reason presented for Willow to be in Sunnydale before the finale.  But having a logical plot is too much work, it appears.

 

But overall boring and stupid and wayyyy too convenient (how nice of the Zombies to just leave the talisman where Xander practically trips over it, isn't it?) and if I never see the block of wood that played "Carlos" again, it'll be too soon.  Damn, could that kid not act…

Marks: 3/10, because I don't want to drop it all the way down to Season Sux levels and because I'll scrape up a point for having the courage to change Spike's incredibly-boring decades-old look and give him hair that more properly reflects his deranged mental state.  And because that final scene is quite good.  But overall, not exactly the best start to get "back to the beginning".  

You know, when the show was a delight, rather than a painful chore…

(Label for the tape that includes Villains, Two to Go/Grave and this one: "The Ultimate Shit Tape".   Yeah, not exactly a thing of beauty that's a joy forever, IMO.)

Edited November 10, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Joe Hellandback]

19 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

If killing two female characters for shock value, turning one into psychotic killer hell-bent on destroying the world and setting the other on the degrading path of becoming Spikey's love bitch do not prove Joss' blatant misogyny, then I don't know what else does.

 

The fact that they needed to "rebuild" ol' SunnyHell High is a sure sign of Team Joss having writer's block. If they really believed they could recapture or recreate the spirit of the three earlier seasons by simply bringing back SHS, man, they were totally delusional. Once again Xander was shown to be high on stupid pills: he knew damn well what lied beneath the "old SHS" and the threat it posed, he knew that it would definitely put Dawn's and other kids' lives at risk, and yet he willingly and mindlessly participated in the construction work.  Good writing, pals.

 

If having sooooooooooul alone made everyone good, our world would have been much better place to live in. Unfortunately being ensouled is not enough. Serial killers do have souls, after all. And how does having a sooooooul undermine Spike's past atrocities? Does that mean that all of the people Spike killed in the past aren't dead anymore? In which way having a soul makes Captain Peroxide a good character?
 

If Buffy really did her best, Angelus would have turned to dust in Innocence, and Spikey wouldn't have lived past season 4. Doing her best meant tracking down Drusilla and killing the murderer of Buffy's sister slayer either. Yes, Buffy cannot save every man or woman in town, but her screw-ups have little to with her inability, they have everything to do with growing indifference and disregard for human lives.

And last but not least: why couldn't they have sent Xander to accompany Willow in her trip to England since it was him (whether we like it or not) who succeeded in preventing Wicca from making her worst mistake, and not Giles? Why wasn't it obvious that Willow could have recovered faster having the person she knew the longest and best by her side? If Giles' presence didn't tarnish Willow's "lesbian street cred", how could Xander's presence alone do this?

Among the things I really don't like about season 7 is literally turning Xander into Dawnie's chauffer/nanny/bodyguard and Buffy's confidante/lackey. Xander doesn't belong in the Summers family, he belongs with his best friend.

  Reveal hidden contents

Of course that wasn't as bad or pathetic as his constant attempts to make it up to Anya throughout the season and the overall continuation of the whole Xanya madness until the final ep. Sad.

Spuffy is not misogyny, it's just Buffy making some bad choices as many of us do. Rebuilding SDH is back to the beginning, full circle. Better to have Xander on the scene than on the outside. Unsouled Spike is not culpable for his actions, souled Spike is a man once again, William the Bloody would never dream of hurting anyone.

 Buffy is human, she can't bring herself to do it and she can't chase after Dru and  leave SD defenceless. Buffy cares for people, she nightly risks her life to save perfect strangers for very little reward and knows she'll die young as a result. She is a hero. They kept Xander in SD because the gang needed him and it would simply have distracted her rehabilitation with Giles. Xander is part of the Summer's family, his best friend will return.   

[Joe Hellandback]

1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

Well, it should be Angel instead of Drusilla (the WB was still objecting to out-of-network crossovers for a lead character), of course, and you can tell that Harry Groener was doing a play, because they didn't have him long enough to do a morphing effect on the Mayor, we just cut to him from Adam and to Drusilla from him.  And of course you have to wonder why the Mayor and the Master are even in the scene, since Spike has never met them.  If these are the real baddies, it's odd they'd join a plot against him, and if it's somebody impersonating them (as the First Evil did against Angel in Amends), why would they think that the images of strangers would make an effective psychological weapon?  Especially given that Spike's already apparently insane, and you don't really need to push his buttons that much.

Feels more like fan-service than anything necessary to the storytelling.  That said, the Master (or First!Master, or whomever Mark Metcalf is playing) calling Spike "a pathetic schmuck"? Never.Gets.Old.

Unfortunately, one scene does not an episode make, and the rest of this ep is slow and stupid and annoying.  The Courteous Zombies are a ridiculous excuse for antagonists, given how they stop "attacking" every time the plot needs them to, for no reason whatsoever.  Need Dawn to whip out her cell phone?  Suddenly the Zombies stop attacking.  Need to have a Spuffy moment to kiss up to those 'shippers?  Again, the fucking Zombies stop attacking.  You know, you guys would have a lot better chance of killing Buffy if you actually tried to kill Buffy.  I'm just saying.

And what's more repulsive, Buffy not caring that people may have died and she never even noticed it?  Buffy mocking the Zombies for being uncool losers (didn't this show use to be about the outsiders?) and not "hotties" like Angel and Spike?  Or Buffy seeing Spike for the first time in months, out of the blue and looking half-crazy, and letting her rapist fondle her face?  Vomit, vomit, and projectile vomit.  Sheesh.  (And as far as Buffy's disappearing moral code goes, apparently she's been letting Anya cast vengeance wishes all summer and hasn't lifted a finger to stop her?  Good gravy…)

I also really can't stand having Principal Wood "mistakenly" think that Buffy is Dawn's mother, just so Joss can shove in his stupid "mom-hair" joke.  Wood read Buffy's file; he knows she's 21. FFS.

It's nice that Joss was willing to shoot Giles's scenes at ASH's property in West England

  Hide contents

(reputedly as a bribe to make Tony more amenable to doing the back half of the season in LA)

but wow, those are some useless Willow/Giles scenes.  (Although I suppose it is nice to see that Willow was so guilt-riddled that she willingly went with Giles even though she thought she was being taken to her execution.)  But it still annoys me that they cut the third W/G scene, the one that actually raised important questions:

But overall boring and stupid and wayyyy too convenient (how nice of the Zombies to just leave the talisman where Xander practically trips over it, isn't it?) and if I never see the block of wood that played "Carlos" again, it'll be too soon.  Damn, could that kid not act…

Marks: 3/10, because I don't want to drop it all the way down to Season Sux levels and because I'll scrape up part of a point for remembering that there was a 1905 Russian Revolution before the more famous one in 1917, and the rest of the point for having the courage to change Spike's incredibly-boring decades-old look and give him hair that more properly reflects his deranged mental state.  But overall, not exactly the best start to get "back to the beginning".  

You know, when the show was a delight, rather than a painful chore…

(Label for the tape that includes Villains, Two to Go/Grave and this one: "The Ultimate Shit Tape".   Yeah, not exactly a thing of beauty that's a joy forever, IMO.)

Spike almost certainly met The Master at some point given Darla's devotion to him, Angel in School Hard informs Spike that Buffy killed The Master as if he knew him. Maybe he met the Mayor at some stage or just the Scoobs filled him in. It's ok for Buffy to mock the deadites when they're TRYING TO KILL HER SISTER! Plus they know Anya is miss soft serve now. The Buffy mom joke is hilarious, I'm sure Woods was just playing with her. Personally I'd have liked to so Kit and Carlos again, always like a bit of continuity. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Spuffy is not misogyny, it's just Buffy making some bad choices as many of us do.

There is bad choices and there is dating an unrepentant serial killer. Honestly, I find it incredibly disappointing that so much of the fandom seems to think this isn't a big deal. Granted, the narrative whitewashed Spike (and Anya) in a very manipulative fashion but come on, how exactly am I supposed to root for the good guys who they don't care about murder if the murderer happens to be hot?

Quote

 Buffy is human, she can't bring herself to do it and she can't chase after Dru and  leave SD defenceless.

Dru was right there in Crush and Buffy didn't bother chase her at all, let alone outside of Sunnydale.

The summer break in the narrative sure doesn't help. What's Spike waiting for? Crazy or not, I don't believe for a second that he wouldn't have run immediately to Buffy to brag about his shiny new soul and at the same time accuse her of saddling him with it. Anya's granting wishes but staying Sunnydale for no reason and Buffy tolerates her... why exactly? Because she read the script and

Spoiler

noticed that the confrontation is several episodes away and Anya's wishes are harmless, I guess. Characterization? What's that?

And of course, Buffy not knowing about Spike's soul makes the accusation of misogyny all the more convincing because last time she saw him he was trying to rape her and now she is all conflicted about him. I guess we should be grateful she didn't rush to bring Dawn to him as she was ready to do in Villains but still, lots of unfortunate implications.

[lembergwatcher]

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Rebuilding SDH is back to the beginning, full circle.

Lack of ideas, I would say.

 

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Unsouled Spike is not culpable for his actions

What's the point of vampire slaying then? 'Cause every single vamp is soulless (maybe except for Angel) and therefore "not culpable" for his actions.

 

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

William the Bloody would never dream of hurting anyone.

Do we know that much about William's personality to make such a claim?

 

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Buffy is human, she can't bring herself to do it

It's an odd way to express humanity in Buffy's case. Because slaying vampires happened to be Buffy's job (even more: her destiny, calling) and the safety of the human beings (not her own feelings) should have been the Slayer's primary concern. It's like sayin': "Firefighter is human too. He or she can't bring him/herself to put out the fire and save lives for some reason". Will such "explanation" be a credible one?
 

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

she can't chase after Dru and  leave SD defenceless.

But that's exactly what she did (left Sunnydale defenceless for several months) after the whole Acathla deal. Chasing after Dru would have been much better reasoning than being "devastaded" after having to stop Angelus.

 

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

They kept Xander in SD because the gang needed him and it would simply have distracted her rehabilitation with Giles.

1. That's exactly what I said. Yes, the gang (or should we say Buffy and Dawnie?) surely needed him: who else could play the role of Buffy's yes-man and Dawnie's nanny? Anya? Buffy and Dawn liked to keep Xander around because it suited them first and foremost. Not exactly a sign of true appreciation IMO. 2. And why would Xander's presence, and not Giles' pseudo-philosophical gibberish have distracted Willow's rehabilitation?

 

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Xander is part of the Summer's family, his best friend will return.

1. Since when? 2. That's what we, the fans, know. I'm not sure Willow's return was that obvious to Xander back then.

Edited November 6, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[wendyg]

Trivial point: how come Spike gets no "bedpost credit" for Harmony and Drusilla?

[Halting Hex]

7 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

William the Bloody would never dream of hurting anyone.

Spoiler

Spike's demon kills more people in this season than ever before.  Blah, blah, "mind control", but he has enough free will not to bite Buffy.  And he threatens to kill Robin, if he "so much as looks at me", backed up by Buffy's approval.  So, no, I wouldn't trust his SOOOOOOOUL as far as I could throw it.

 

7 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

It's ok for Buffy to mock the deadites when they're TRYING TO KILL HER SISTER!

No, it isn't.  In Earshot, she thought Jonathan was attempting a mass murder, when she talked him down with compassion.  "Sneering bitch" really isn't a good look, no matter whom it's directed at.

7 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Plus they know Anya is miss soft serve now.

Spoiler

Her very next wish turns Ronny into a Sluggoth demon, and she's not that far from slaughtering an entire fraternity house.  "Miss Soft Serve", my evil toenails.

 

8 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

The Buffy mom joke is hilarious, I'm sure Woods was just playing with her.

a) no, it wasn't.

b) it's "Wood", in the singular, not "Woods" in the plural.

c) very unprofessional of him, if true.  

d) likely counterproductive, if true.  Is he telling the actual mothers that they look like grandmothers, then?

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎06‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 12:10 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

There is bad choices and there is dating an unrepentant serial killer. Honestly, I find it incredibly disappointing that so much of the fandom seems to think this isn't a big deal. Granted, the narrative whitewashed Spike (and Anya) in a very manipulative fashion but come on, how exactly am I supposed to root for the good guys who they don't care about murder if the murderer happens to be hot?

Dru was right there in Crush and Buffy didn't bother chase her at all, let alone outside of Sunnydale.

The summer break in the narrative sure doesn't help. What's Spike waiting for? Crazy or not, I don't believe for a second that he wouldn't have run immediately to Buffy to brag about his shiny new soul and at the same time accuse her of saddling him with it. Anya's granting wishes but staying Sunnydale for no reason and Buffy tolerates her... why exactly? Because she read the script and

  Reveal hidden contents

noticed that the confrontation is several episodes away and Anya's wishes are harmless, I guess. Characterization? What's that?

And of course, Buffy not knowing about Spike's soul makes the accusation of misogyny all the more convincing because last time she saw him he was trying to rape her and now she is all conflicted about him. I guess we should be grateful she didn't rush to bring Dawn to him as she was ready to do in Villains but still, lots of unfortunate implications.

Buffy's life is not a normal life so she makes allies where she can find them. Buffy couldn't chase after Dru without abandoning her little sis to the hellgod who is pursuing her. Spike probably spent the summer whimpering in the corner trying to come to terms with his evil deeds now he cares about them. Anya stays in SD because it's the Hellmouth and it's been her home for 4 years, she's caught between 2 worlds. Spike with a soul is in no way responsible for anything soulless Spike ever did.  

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎06‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 12:35 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Lack of ideas, I would say.

 

What's the point of vampire slaying then? 'Cause every single vamp is soulless (maybe except for Angel) and therefore "not culpable" for his actions.

 

Do we know that much about William's personality to make such a claim?

 

It's an odd way to express humanity in Buffy's case. Because slaying vampires happened to be Buffy's job (even more: her destiny, calling) and the safety of the human beings (not her own feelings) should have been the Slayer's primary concern. It's like sayin': "Firefighter is human too. He or she can't bring him/herself to put out the fire and save lives for some reason". Will such "explanation" be a credible one?
 

But that's exactly what she did (left Sunnydale defenceless for several months) after the whole Acathla deal. Chasing after Dru would have been much better reasoning than being "devastaded" after having to stop Angelus.

 

1. That's exactly what I said. Yes, the gang (or should we say Buffy and Dawnie?) surely needed him: who else could play the role of Buffy's yes-man and Dawnie's nanny? Anya? Buffy and Dawn liked to keep Xander around because it suited them first and foremost. Not exactly a sign of true appreciation IMO. 2. And why would Xander's presence, and not Giles' pseudo-philosophical gibberish have distracted Willow's rehabilitation?

 

1. Since when? 2. That's what we, the fans, know. I'm not sure Willow's return was that obvious to Xander back then.

Much as I was crestfallen at the time I actually think the show ended at the right time, contrast it with Charmed/Sabrina which certainly outstayed their welcome. 

Because they're a threat, Spike isn't any more

Yes, he's a lovesick poet, who would he hurt?

Buffy's human, it's like the troops in WW1 having an Xmas truce, you can't be 100% warrior all the time. 

Again, back then Glory wasn't pursuing Dawn!

Everyone loves Xander, he's the heart of the gang and I'm sure everyone trusted Giles. 

22 hours ago, wendyg said:

Trivial point: how come Spike gets no "bedpost credit" for Harmony and Drusilla?

Because it's the Scooby gang list, he doesn't bed Dru/Harm after late s5 which is when he really joins the gang. 

[Joe Hellandback]

22 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

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Spike's demon kills more people in this season than ever before.  Blah, blah, "mind control", but he has enough free will not to bite Buffy.  And he threatens to kill Robin, if he "so much as looks at me", backed up by Buffy's approval.  So, no, I wouldn't trust his SOOOOOOOUL as far as I could throw it.

 

No, it isn't.  In Earshot, she thought Jonathan was attempting a mass murder, when she talked him down with compassion.  "Sneering bitch" really isn't a good look, no matter whom it's directed at.

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Her very next wish turns Ronny into a Sluggoth demon, and she's not that far from slaughtering an entire fraternity house.  "Miss Soft Serve", my evil toenails.

 

a) no, it wasn't.

b) it's "Wood", in the singular, not "Woods" in the plural.

c) very unprofessional of him, if true.  

d) likely counterproductive, if true.  Is he telling the actual mothers that they look like grandmothers, then?

Yes, mind control, just like Willow in Bad Eggs or Xander in The Pack or Buffy in Normal Again etc, we don't hold them liable nor should we.

Because Jonathon was human and these guys weren't.

She turns him back and the latter was only under pressure but we'll talk about that then. 

I thought it was funny, Buffy's unease at being Dawn's parent is always amusing. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

Buffy couldn't chase after Dru without abandoning her little sis to the hellgod who is pursuing her.

Again, Drusilla was right there in front of Buffy, not in Nepal or wherever. It's a plot armor and very clumsy one too.

[Halting Hex]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

just like Willow in Bad Eggs or Xander in The Pack or Buffy in Normal Again etc, we don't hold them liable nor should we

Those examples involve people being influenced by a temporary, external force.  Willow and Xander were incapable of resisting on their own.  Buffy does eventually break the control, but unlike

Spoiler

Spike, she didn't kill anybody before she did.  (Spike kills at least 12 humans before he decides not to bite Buffy.)  And none of the Scoobs being discussed has a murderous demon inside them, screaming for blood every second of the day, the restraint applied by the chip soooooooul aside.

 

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Because Jonathon was human and these guys weren't.

I can think of at least one non-human on whose behalf you constantly advocate.  So it seems an odd distinction to draw here.  But JMO.

[Joe Hellandback]

23 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Again, Drusilla was right there in front of Buffy, not in Nepal or wherever. It's a plot armor and very clumsy one too.

Buff was still recovering from being electrocuted and bashed around, give her a break, she was in no fit state to take both on. 

[lembergwatcher]

Quote

WILLOW
When you brought me here, I thought it was to kill me or to lock me in some mystical dungeon for all eternity or—with the torture. Instead, you go all Dumbledore on me. I'm learning about magic. All about energy and Gaia and root systems.

If Mr. Tweedy Pants assumed the role of your guru, then I can only say one thing, Will: you're in a big-big trouble. OTOH Buffyverse is known for its lack of decent adult role models, i.e. "not a decent animal to chose between".  I don't want to sound harsh here but watching those "idillic" W/G scenes in this 

Spoiler

and the following

episode makes me miss the old days when Willow kicked Rupert's ass through the whole Magic Box.

[lembergwatcher]

I love it how good Buffy writers are at throwing away the story arc of the entire season with just one line:

Quote

GILES
Everything's connected. You're connected to a great power, whether you feel it or not.

WILLOW
Well you should just take it from me.

She gets up and storms off, angry at herself. They walk toward a building.

GILES
You know we can't. This isn't a hobby or an addiction. It's inside you now, this magic. You're responsible for it.

Spoiler

And a final confirmation six episodes later, in Conversations With Dead People:

Quote

CASSIE
But if you stop—completely. No more magic.

WILLOW
Right. Right. Stop. W-what about Giles? He made it seem like it was just as dangerous for me to quit completely, like I'll go off the deep end again—

 

So magic is not an "addiction" anymore? Is it inside of Willow only "now" or has it always been there? And one cannot just stop and quit spell-casting completely, right? So abstaining from magic, as Willow did from Wrecked to Villains ("No spells for thirty-two days" - Willow in Dead Things) was no solution then? Wasn't Giles supposed to tell and Willow to learn such basic things much earlier, in, say, 1998-1999? Kinda mystery to me this is.

I don't know whether it was intentional or the writers just totally missed it, but Giles' words (i.e. the new party line on magic in the show) only prove how utterly incompetent late Tara Maclay was. Because she was the one who insisted passive-aggressively on quitting magic in Willow's case, wasn't she? Magic is baaaaaad. Bad-bad-bad, very bad Willow, the reckless magic abuser. She has to stop doing spells once and for all, because otherwise there'll be no reconciliation with St. Tara, no holding hands, no kissing, no sex, no nothing. But instead of helping Willow battle her "addiction", Tara's "genuine" recipe for her ex-lover's rehabilitation made things much worse (Dark Willow says "hey"). Good job, Tara. I just don't understand why the fandom still loves you so much...

What a spit on Tara's grave, this new party line...

Edited February 3, 2019 by lembergwatcher

[illdoc]

10 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

Is it inside of Willow only "now" or has it always been there?

According to Supernatural, there are 3 kinds of witches: (a) Natural witches are born with magical ability (b) Trained witches who are trained or mentored by mentored by Grand Coven approved witches (c) "Borrowers" who gain their power through deals with demons. So, I think Willow might have been a natural witch (since she really had had no training before she was doing spells (especially the "soul" spell). In which case, the magic has indeed "always been there", even if she didn't know it. Giles might be considered a trained witch, since he learned witchcraft, as opposed to having ability. And yes, I do realize I'm using "mythology" from one show to try to explain another.

[Halting Hex]

On 2/2/2019 at 1:22 PM, lembergwatcher said:

This isn't a hobby or an addiction. It's inside you now, this magic. You're responsible for it

Translation: we've reduced you to just a cartoon, the "lesbian witch", and fandom won't let us give you a new girlfriend yet.  So you'd better cast some spells or we'll be looking to get out of Alyson's contract, somehow.

I mean, as pathetic as it is that Whedon and his crew of hacks can no longer write Willow as an important character simply for being Willow, for being brave and a good friend and Buffy's touchstone to the world and the representation of all the innocents out there (most of this role having been given to Dawnie-Come-Lately, of course), if you're going to make her defined purely by her external traits, you don't have to go back to the "witch" well.  There are these things called "computers", Willow's pretty good with them, too.  You could plug her back in there (pun!) and no longer have to worry about finding ways to break/corrupt/limit/exclude her, just so that she doesn't overshadow Buffy and turn the show into Charmed:  Sunnydale.

However, in the words of an Albanian-American IMO a bit less sexy than Eliza D., "But noooooooo…"

On 2/2/2019 at 1:38 PM, illdoc said:

So, I think Willow might have been a natural witch (since she really had had no training before she was doing spells (especially the "soul" spell). In which case, the magic has indeed "always been there", even if she didn't know it

Sure, on her very first day at Sunnydale High, Buffy ("One Girl in All the World") just happens to fall in love with run into a "natural witch" of such great power that she will one day nearly destroy that very same world.  Yes, yes, "things such as this are easier when you live on a Hellmouth", but I don't think we need to give Contrivance quite this much of an easy go of it.  Let the show earn its dramatics, I say.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

On 02.02.2019 at 9:10 PM, Halting Hex said:

Translation: we've reduced you to just a cartoon, the "lesbian witch", and fandom won't let us give you a new girlfriend yet.  So you'd better cast some spells or we'll be looking to get out of Alyson's contract, somehow.

Even if it makes our former darling Tara look stupid...

[Halting Hex]

3 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Even if it makes our former darling Tara look stupid...

To bastardize Christopher Marlowe's The Jew of Malta: "But that was in another country season; and besides, the wench is dead."  Tara who?

Spoiler

I mean, it's not as if Tara gets a lot of mentions this season, after all.  So a lack of concern for her retroactive characterization here makes a certain amount of "sense", in the most cynical sense of the word, that is.

OT:  I haven't really dug into the "Was Marlowe Shakespeare?" theory, but I'm guessing that The Jew of Malta is considered a close cousin of The Merchant of Venice, then? [/OT]

[lembergwatcher]

20 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

But that was in another country season

Yeah, b-but the Holy Continuity? It used to be some kind of fetish for Joss & the rest.

[lembergwatcher]

Seems like everyone is in love with Giles/Willow in this ep. Well, except for me, of course.

So, let me get this straight, do we see the same Giles who:

• was largely responsible for introducing Willow to the world of magic;
• somehow failed to explain her basic things about witchcraft, as it turns out;
• insulted Willow by calling her a "rank, arrogant amateur";
• abandoned his other disciple (and thus his responsibility) in the middle of a very serious crisis of which Mr. Tweedy Pants was totally aware;
• gave Dark!Willow enough power to destroy the whole world which didn't happen only due to a pure coincidence (Xander going on the Bluff instead of trying to help Buffy and Dawn)?

Do we really need this guy with an extensive track record of screw-ups, suckiness and dereliction of duty to be Willow's "Dumbledore" right now? Does Willow herself need all that conventional wisdom from some old has-been? She knows a lot more about magic than Tweed Boy ever did. And why should Coven all of a sudden trust Giles' judgement since he already failed miserably with both Buffy and Willow?

I guess Will needs someone who can evoke humanity in her by the most conventional, non-magical means, and not some verbal manipulations. Someone who can help her become just Willow, sweet girl and devoted friend, once again, someone who knows something about her. And it's clearly not Giles, who doesn't know a thing about Willow. Hell, he doesn't even know shit about Buffy (his Slayer, ffs!). What happened to the old Watcher, anyway?

Edited February 5, 2019 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

What happened to the old Watcher, anyway?

One of those days, he woke up in a coma.

(Hey, Cordelia isn't just a fashion trendsetter, standardized test whiz and great humanitarian, you know.  Sometimes she's just plain smart.)

[lembergwatcher]

Fortunately, the days of I Only Have Eyes for You, Faith, Hope & Trick or Where the Wild Things Are were long gone

Spoiler

and we don't see much adoration for ol' G-Man on Willow's part throughout the seventh season.