Mad Men - General Discussion

[txhorns79]

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I honestly think that if either of them ever seriously needed the other, they'd be there in a second without much drama.

I don't know if I'd go that far.  I liked the professional, respectful relationship they developed, but I never got the impression that were at a level of closeness where one would drop everything immediately to be there for the other person.   

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I just think it would be wrong of her to start imagining herself as being on the road to some great success until Don forced her to move to LA and that's where her life went wrong. I could see her going down that road by the end there, even though a lot of the stuff we get about her from LA seem to be showing Megan not making good choices on her own. (Ironically in an ep I just rewatched she says to Don "I know what you're like when you're on your own" when she's accusing him of cheating, but really it's *Megan* who self-destructs when she's on her own enough that her agent calls Don for help.)

 

I viewed it more like Megan saw her career being disrupted, and her never being able to return to that level again.  I fully agree that from what we heard Megan was making a lot of bad choices out in LA.  Though I think that having her husband there might have at least helped her tamp down on some of her more desperate behavior.   

[Melancholy]

5 hours ago, voiceover said:

I like Kevin Rahm, but Ted had to grow on me.  Then one day he said, "I don't want his juice.  I want my juice!"  And I was hearing someone describe my professional existence.  

How could I resist?

Yup. Ted mainly came off like an annoying mosquito in S4 at first impression. And then, his relationship with Peggy was ridiculous but also Peggy kept touting him as the Perfect Man, Perfect Boss that I had such a gag-reflex of "I don't buy what you're selling both as how Ted comes across now and how he came across in S4." But eventually his feud with Don in S6 provoked his own business POV where he was negotiating his own contrary interests and emotions in such a compelling way that Don no longer had the monopoly on that kind of a story on the divisions in a person. Ted's Don-burns were quite wonderful. "Why is every decision around here subject to 10 rounds unless it's his?" 

Ted: Stop the war. 

Don: I can't stop The [implied Vietnam] War. 

Ted: Don't be an asshole, Don. The war with me. 

Edited September 26, 2017 by Melancholy

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I don't know if I'd go that far.  I liked the professional, respectful relationship they developed, but I never got the impression that were at a level of closeness where one would drop everything immediately to be there for the other person.   

They don't lead the kind of lives where they'd usually ever have to do that, I don't think. But honestly, if there was a situation where Peggy or Pete was really in trouble and for some reason the other one was the one who could help? I don't see why they wouldn't. I think they're much closer than being professionally and respectful. That, to me, is the whole center of the relationship, that it's not something where they're always involved with each other but when it matters, they're really important to each other. 

4 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I viewed it more like Megan saw her career being disrupted, and her never being able to return to that level again.  I fully agree that from what we heard Megan was making a lot of bad choices out in LA.  Though I think that having her husband there might have at least helped her tamp down on some of her more desperate behavior.   

I think that's how she viewed it too, but even that's Megan pointlessly blaming Don for some imaginary career she never had. Sure if Don hadn't talked to her about California she would probably still be on the soap playing twins and being recognized for that, but that's probably it. I don't think she's really pining for a career where she was on a soap forever and that's the only thing she was doing at the time she left.

[TigerLynx]

I think Pete and Peggy eventually became friends.  They had moved on from the past, and were looking toward the future.  In the scene with Harry where they were all supposed to go to lunch, and Pete and Peggy are amused that Harry is disappointed all three of them won't get to go together, Harry apparently sees them as the final remaining trio of the original Sterling Cooper, while Peggy and Pete are more along the lines of, "Company's been sold again, Don's AWOL, and there's a new group of jerks to try to negotiate around to get work done, same old same old."  I do wonder if Peggy and/or Pete and Trudy will have someone show up on their doorstep one day asking about his parents.

[txhorns79]

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They don't lead the kind of lives where they'd usually ever have to do that, I don't think. But honestly, if there was a situation where Peggy or Pete was really in trouble and for some reason the other one was the one who could help? I don't see why they wouldn't. I think they're much closer than being professionally and respectful. That, to me, is the whole center of the relationship, that it's not something where they're always involved with each other but when it matters, they're really important to each other. 

I think Peggy and Pete share something that binds them, but it's also something that is shared in secret.  We've seen them at very dark points over the seasons following Peggy's revelation about the baby to Pete, and they really do not seek each other out for comfort or support.  I do think they like each other and obviously, there is a respect, but it's not something where they serve as potential lifejackets for one another.   

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I don't think she's really pining for a career where she was on a soap forever and that's the only thing she was doing at the time she left.

Who knows?  Maybe it was her dream to be a proto-Susan Lucci!  I didn't mean it as Megan was pining for any specific job, just that the move to California disrupted what seemed to be a forward moving path in acting, and she wasn't able to get back to that.   

Edited September 26, 2017 by txhorns79

[sistermagpie]

8 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I think Peggy and Pete share something that binds them, but it's also something that is shared in secret.  We've seen them at very dark points over the seasons following Peggy's revelation about the baby to Pete, and they really do not seek each other out for comfort or support.  I do think they like each other and obviously, there is a respect, but it's not something where they serve as potential lifejackets for one another.   

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I'm not being clear then. I totally agree they don't seek each other out for comfort or support or life jackets. But I also don't think their bond is just a shared secret. It's what makes the relationship so unique to me. That's why I'm imagining them being there for one another in a crisis scenario which would probably never happen. Or maybe a better example, if either of them heard the other one died, I think that would mean something to them more than it would mean if one of their other former co-workers died. Not because they lost their best friend but because they lost someone who would always be important to them

10 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Who knows?  Maybe it was her dream to be a proto-Susan Lucci!  I didn't mean it as Megan was pining for any specific job, just that the move to California disrupted what seemed to be a forward moving path in acting, and she wasn't able to get back to that.   

Oh, I did understand--and I absolutely agree. She felt like she was moving forward and that stopped abruptly when Don got her to move to California. I just think she was in danger of exaggerating that in imagining that she would really have been so much more content and successful if Don hadn't done that. Not only was he the one that seemed to get her a break to begin with (not to mention being the reason she even returned to acting at all), but it's not like we saw this big conflict for her about leaving the soap. So part of the disruption was down to her thinking she was ready to move on to bigger and better things. Iirc when we first see her in California she's excited about it.

[Athena]

37 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I'm not being clear then. I totally agree they don't seek each other out for comfort or support or life jackets. But I also don't think their bond is just a shared secret. It's what makes the relationship so unique to me. That's why I'm imagining them being there for one another in a crisis scenario which would probably never happen. Or maybe a better example, if either of them heard the other one died, I think that would mean something to them more than it would mean if one of their other former co-workers died. Not because they lost their best friend but because they lost someone who would always be important to them

Yes and I love the Pete/Peggy relationship too. It works for me because they have shown throughout the series how they understand each other in a way other coworkers and colleagues don't. Even other friends. To a certain extent, they understand Don in their own ways as well, but since it's Don, it's actually more distant especially for Pete. I think Pete kept trying to find a similar romantic dynamic he had with Peggy and after he grew, he realized Trudy and him could have that. Peggy/Stan know each other too but it is built over many years; from the get-go, Peggy/Pete had natural attraction to each other. Even with their different backgrounds, they both didn't feel they were in the right place in the world when they met. 

[Melancholy]

23 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

I think Pete and Peggy eventually became friends.  They had moved on from the past, and were looking toward the future.  In the scene with Harry where they were all supposed to go to lunch, and Pete and Peggy are amused that Harry is disappointed all three of them won't get to go together, Harry apparently sees them as the final remaining trio of the original Sterling Cooper, while Peggy and Pete are more along the lines of, "Company's been sold again, Don's AWOL, and there's a new group of jerks to try to negotiate around to get work done, same old same old."  I do wonder if Peggy and/or Pete and Trudy will have someone show up on their doorstep one day asking about his parents.

Interestingly, that whole Pete/Peggy/Harry thing came about because Peggy skipped Pete's goodbye lunch because of Samonite filming issues. Who knows if Peggy could have worked around the Samsonite issue if she really tried but she wasn't doing so on screen or trying to come up with another goodbye meal or meeting before Pete left for the Midwest or excusing her absence because she had plans on the horizon to see Pete again. Instead, she was just making fun of Harry for being invested in all of them eating together for Pete's last McCann lunch. Then, probably 5 minutes later, she was bitching about how the male execs never invite her to lunch...

Peggy/Pete do have a track record on what they'd do for the other in "dire circumstances" but its mixed. Pete would not leave Trudy for Peggy (except when he talked like he would during the Cuban Missile Crisis even though I think that was just panic and reaching out). Peggy would not deliver Pete's baby for him or seek his input on the baby. When Pete told Peggy that her indiscreet interest in Duck's job offer placed unwanted questions and focus on Pete's loyalty to SC, Peggy really didn't care. Rightly so because Peggy could carry on her own interest in Grey without making Pete seem like a jumper too and even if the SC partners did catch on that the offer was extended to both, it's no justification to place limits on Peggy's freedom of movement. 

I think the interaction that most contradicted a "Pete and Peggy are in the same foxhole theory!" was:

Peggy: I need $280 for bail.

Don: Where are you?

Peggy: It's not for me.

Don: Spit it out, honey.

Peggy: You're going to laugh. Pete and I hired some actresses to get in a fight over a Sugarberry ham. You know, as a stunt. We got them to increase their media budget. Hello?

Don: I'm here.

Peggy: Well, one of them pressed charges against the other for assault. It's $80 bail and $100 apiece to keep their mouths shut. And it has to happen today.

Don: Call Pete!

Peggy: Do you think you're my first call? 

I would have liked to see Pete's explanation because yeah, Peggy has a way of unfairly representing people. But just based on the exchange, I think we're supposed to imply that Pete decided to not help Peggy raise money for bail and bribes because he didn't want to pony up that much. It was partly his plan and he wasn't around to share the fallout. But it could be that Pete wasn't answering his phone at home because he was occupied with Thanksgiving. 

But then, Pete broke with the other partners and warned Peggy that McCann was absorbing SC. I think that's HUGE in terms of predicting how deep loyalties go. Pete is ordinarily a big stickler for the rules and acting in accordance with the hierarchy of the company and its proper procedures. He truly transcends character to do right by Peggy and it's one of my favorite moments of his. I don't think Pete was actually risking anything by telling Peggy because McCann were the new true bosses and the McCann execs didn't impose this rule on when to tell non-partner staff. It mattered less on breaking faith with the other SC partners. But still, I buy that Pete remained in the habit of believing that his path to security and success rested in following rules and following the dictates of the SC partners so it still *felt* like a leap to break the agreement and tell Peggy. 

On those grounds, I think it's very possible that Pete is more loyal/feels closer to Peggy than vice a versa. 

[TigerLynx]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

Who knows?  Maybe it was her dream to be a proto-Susan Lucci!  I didn't mean it as Megan was pining for any specific job, just that the move to California disrupted what seemed to be a forward moving path in acting, and she wasn't able to get back to that.   

When Don suggested moving to California, Megan jumped at the chance.  She told Don she was the one who had been wanting to do that, but he hadn't liked the idea.  Of course, that makes me wonder about Don's flip flop when he agreed to let Ted go instead.  If Don was trying to get rid of Megan, he couldn't have done a better job of it.  He not only has an affair with a woman who lives in the same building as they do.  Don and Megan also socialize with her and her husband, and have them over for dinner.  Then he suggests they move to California, changes his mind, tells Megan to go without him, and tanks the Hershey deal.  Whatever else Don was, I never thought he was stupid, but he sure knows how to shoot himself in the foot.

 

37 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

Pete would not leave Trudy for Peggy (except when he talked like he would during the Cuban Missile Crisis even though I think that was just panic and reaching out).

I believe that was all about the Cuban Missile Crisis.  That was also when Betty asked Don to return home, and tells Don she is pregnant.  The two of them looked so miserable sitting at the table together.  Their options were the world might end, or they were going to be stuck in their lousy marriage forever.  And we are shown the next season that Betty still wants out.  Betty tries to reignite the spark on their trip to Italy, but instead she returns home even more miserable than before.

Edited September 26, 2017 by TigerLynx

[txhorns79]

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Then he suggests they move to California, changes his mind, tells Megan to go without him, and tanks the Hershey deal. 

I didn't remember the order of things.  I remember he suggests that he and Megan go to California as a new beginning, then changes his mind because of Ted(?), tanks the Hershey deal, then tells Megan that California isn't happening, and she essentially says she is going no matter what. 

[TigerLynx]

40 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I didn't remember the order of things.  I remember he suggests that he and Megan go to California as a new beginning, then changes his mind because of Ted(?), tanks the Hershey deal, then tells Megan that California isn't happening, and she essentially says she is going no matter what. 

Don told Megan she could still move to California, and he could come visit her.  They could have a bi-coastal marriage.  Whatever problems Megan had with Don, I don't believe she has the right to blame him for her acting career going nowhere.  Megan had given up on acting before Don ever met her.  When Megan decided she wanted to try acting again, she had the perfect opportunity when she was married to Don to devote all her time to serious acting, if that was what she really wanted, because Megan didn't need a steady paycheck.  I don't believe Megan loved acting anymore than she did advertising.  I think Megan loved the idea of being rich and famous, and all the attention it would bring.

Edited September 27, 2017 by TigerLynx

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Melancholy said:

Peggy/Pete do have a track record on what they'd do for the other in "dire circumstances" but its mixed.

Yes--and I think all those things are important to understand exactly what their connection is. There is, for instance, a big difference between two people who would in the right circumstances want to be there for each other from people who would do anything for each other or are always there for each other. For instance, a Pete who would have wanted to leave Trudy for a pregnant Peggy or a Peggy who would want to have Pete's baby...wouldn't be the Pete or Peggy we know. Their bond is in a big way based on what Pete says about how Peggy "really knows" him.

When you think about it, when they got together they were both really young (Pete being very immature even though he was a few years older) and they were in some ways each other's first big challenging, huge thing to deal with. Peggy getting to the point where she told the truth to Pete (not just about the baby but about who she was by talking about her decision) and Pete hearing that and the two of them both knowing that this happened and being able to have that between them and be comfortable with it was I think a bigger deal than that they had a brief affair or that they have this baby. I think the fact that they were both continued to have a positive relationship with the person was an important step in each one's development, if that makes sense. Peggy admitted her feelings about this and it was okay. Pete dealt with someone rejecting him and it still being okay.

This is why I always liked that in The Crash, the ep where Peggy gives Stan advice about dealing with his cousin that he's not yet ready to hear, Pete only appears for a moment but it's in a scene with Peggy. The scene has nothing to do with her baby and they're not having any intense interaction, but I always wondered if they got VK in for that very little scene because it carries secret weight to have the two of them in a scene (and sort of agreeing with each other wrt the death that's just happened) in an ep where Peggy will subtextually reference her past.

[ivygirl]

19 hours ago, voiceover said:

I like Kevin Rahm, but Ted had to grow on me.  Then one day he said, "I don't want his juice.  I want my juice!"  And I was hearing someone describe my professional existence.  

How could I resist?

Kevin Rahm was a grower on me. I even started to find him attractive *as Ted*, and that made me worry about myself a bit. 

But the "MY juice!" line? I adore it, too. I saw that ep again not all that long ago, and ever since, I've been dying to work it into a conversation.

[Melancholy]

4 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I didn't remember the order of things.  I remember he suggests that he and Megan go to California as a new beginning, then changes his mind because of Ted(?), tanks the Hershey deal, then tells Megan that California isn't happening, and she essentially says she is going no matter what. 

That's basically the timeline. The Ted question mark is that Ted asked Don if he could go to California instead because staying in NYC with Peggy was too much temptation and it was wrecking Ted's marriage. Ted wanted a new start with Nan and his family in CA. Don originally said no because he needed a new start with his own wife and life. However upon seeing Ted so miserable in the Hershey meeting, Don changed his mind and told the truth about himself and then, gave his CA spot to Ted. 

IMO, Don came to realize, as I feel, that marriages aren't created equal and the quest to save them aren't equal in importance. Ted's long marriage to Wife #1 where they met young and vowed to grow old together and they were with children of that union is worth more than Don's sugar-daddy short marriage to Wife #2 without children in the union. 

7 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

When Don suggested moving to California, Megan jumped at the chance.  She told Don she was the one who had been wanting to do that, but he hadn't liked the idea.  Of course, that makes me wonder about Don's flip flop when he agreed to let Ted go instead.  If Don was trying to get rid of Megan, he couldn't have done a better job of it.  He not only has an affair with a woman who lives in the same building as they do.  Don and Megan also socialize with her and her husband, and have them over for dinner.  Then he suggests they move to California, changes his mind, tells Megan to go without him, and tanks the Hershey deal.  Whatever else Don was, I never thought he was stupid, but he sure knows how to shoot himself in the foot.

Don was looking for a way to improve his life after Sally cut him off and more particularly, after he was jailed for fighting the asshole minister in the bar. At first, he thought it was Megan and California. Then, I think in his heart of hearts, he realized that Megan wasn't the solution but she was instead a continuation of the same mistake. So, he prioritized other things- his kids, his job, alone time to self-reflect, helping out Ted- all over a marriage that he already felt was wrong. However, Don wasn't about to throw Megan away when he was trying to improve his life and go in a better direction. It's too much nakedly hurting a person to cast out this young girl. So, he just went through the motions of supporting the young girl so that he's not as much the bad guy. However, his heart wasn't in it. Every trip to CA and phone call with Megan felt like an obligation- including the sex. 

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I believe that was all about the Cuban Missile Crisis.  That was also when Betty asked Don to return home, and tells Don she is pregnant.  The two of them looked so miserable sitting at the table together.  Their options were the world might end, or they were going to be stuck in their lousy marriage forever.  And we are shown the next season that Betty still wants out.  Betty tries to reignite the spark on their trip to Italy, but instead she returns home even more miserable than before.

I agree that Pete confessed love to Peggy out of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Then, Betty stayed with Don partly as a symbol of the uneasy detante after the Crisis ended. Actually, Don/Betty's "misery" at the end of Meditations on an Emergency is complicated. Betty really did not want to get back together with him- and she felt forced because the kids including the third one in the oven. I think Betty started off the scene miserable. Don started off the scene generally relived that he was let back into the house and marriage but then, he had some anger/sadness of "Oh really? Is that why I'm back in the house? It's because of the pregnancy instead of forgiveness." However, Don visibly put those emotions away to focus on how it was *some* species of forgiveness that he should be grateful for regardless of the origins so he reached out for Betty's hand. Betty still didn't want to get back to together with him but she was relived that he just reached out, no questions asked or drama made, so she ended the scene on a more peaceful note. It's really a very complicated master-class of acting.

By the time that Betty/Don were sitting together, the Crisis had passed. Pete's confession of love to Peggy and Betty's bar-sex were symbolic of the world ending- the infidelity. Pete and Betty returning to their spouses were part of the end of the Crisis and how both nations and individuals had to just return to the uneasy cold truce of business as usual. 

At the end of S3, Betty does actually leave Don because of a national crisis- the Kennedy assassination. But both Betty and the United States had an Order of Succession arranged. :-)

Edited September 27, 2017 by Melancholy

[voiceover]

49 minutes ago, ivygirl said:

But the "MY juice!" line? I adore it, too. I saw that ep again not all that long ago, and ever since, I've been dying to work it into a conversation.

I am begging -- begging -- that you let me know when you do this, and how.

Edited September 27, 2017 by voiceover

[txhorns79]

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IMO, Don came to realize, as I feel, that marriages aren't created equal and the quest to save them aren't equal in importance. Ted's long marriage to Wife #1 where they met young and vowed to grow old together and they were with children of that union is worth more than Don's sugar-daddy short marriage to Wife #2 without children in the union. 

I didn't view it like that, and I don't think Don is quite that sentimental about whose marriage is more deserving of saving.  I just think Don knew that something was going on with Peggy and Ted, and that situation was much more volatile and present than any issues Don was having.  Also, Ted seemed openly despondent. 

Besides, wasn't it at least suggested that Ted's marriage was over by 1970?  I don't think they ever said it directly, but Ted was back living in New York and talking about visiting with an old girlfriend.   

[Athena]

9 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Besides, wasn't it at least suggested that Ted's marriage was over by 1970?  I don't think they ever said it directly, but Ted was back living in New York and talking about visiting with an old girlfriend.

Yes. He seemed content, happy, and cautiously optimistic about his new old romance. I don't think it surprised a lot of us that Ted's first marriage failed. 

[Melancholy]

5 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I didn't view it like that, and I don't think Don is quite that sentimental about whose marriage is more deserving of saving.  I just think Don knew that something was going on with Peggy and Ted, and that situation was much more volatile and present than any issues Don was having.  Also, Ted seemed openly despondent. 

Besides, wasn't it at least suggested that Ted's marriage was over by 1970?  I don't think they ever said it directly, but Ted was back living in New York and talking about visiting with an old girlfriend.   

I don't think Don thought of Ted's issues as more volatile and present at all. Don just spent the night in jail. He had ticking time bombs who knew about his infidelity in his building and in Sally. I do think that Don thought Ted's marriage was worth saving more than his. It's a blend of sentimental and cynical.

Yes, Ted's marriage to Nan ended up failing. That doesn't say anything about why Don gave up the CA place after Ted asked. Generally, a change in location doesn't do anything to fix deep, underlying problems. It became evident that Ted's true problem was in his marriage to Nan. Even without Peggy around, Ted still escaped from his marriage with drinking and moping and probably, Nan really had it with relocating across the country for a husband who was still rejecting her and seemed unstable. 

[txhorns79]

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I don't think Don thought of Ted's issues as more volatile and present at all. Don just spent the night in jail. He had ticking time bombs who knew about his infidelity in his building and in Sally. I do think that Don thought Ted's marriage was worth saving more than his. It's a blend of sentimental and cynical.

Didn't Don basically call them out in the prior episode after Ted went way over budget on the ad Peggy wanted to do for St. Joseph's?  I would think that would mean the issue was present for him, and he saw Ted was trying to correct the problem.  I can't imagine Don thought going to California would do anything about whether Sally decided to tell Megan about what she saw. 

[Melancholy]

50 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Didn't Don basically call them out in the prior episode after Ted went way over budget on the ad Peggy wanted to do for St. Joseph's?  I would think that would mean the issue was present for him, and he saw Ted was trying to correct the problem.  I can't imagine Don thought going to California would do anything about whether Sally decided to tell Megan about what she saw. 

But by then, the St. Joseph's problem was resolved. Don pacified the client and got more money for the commercial. What's more while Ted/Peggy created a clear-as-day business problem by treating St. Joseph's budget like a corsage, I do infer Don's guilty fetal position after Peggy calls him a monster as him knowing that he made a molehill into a mountain out of self interest. That issue of Peggy/Ted disappeared from Don's concerns in In Care Of. What was present was Don feeling depressed and anxious/freaked out by Sally still having nothing to do with him and throwing the affair with Sylvia in his face when he tried to exert parental authority over the court order to testify on the home invasion. I think it was at the front of Don's mind to just run away far and then, his issues with Sally in her own right would disappears. And the possibility of her telling Megan would disapate with space between them. Don did seem scared that Betty and Megan were remarking that it was strange that Sally kept refusing to come to the apartment on their weekends and getting close to inquiring what went wrong between Don and Sally. Going to CA would drop that concern. 

Edited September 27, 2017 by Melancholy

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Athena said:

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

Besides, wasn't it at least suggested that Ted's marriage was over by 1970?  I don't think they ever said it directly, but Ted was back living in New York and talking about visiting with an old girlfriend.

Yes. He seemed content, happy, and cautiously optimistic about his new old romance. I don't think it surprised a lot of us that Ted's first marriage failed. 

And I think good that it ended with just the two of them (Ted and his wife realizing they didn't have a marriage anymore) rather than Ted having an affair with Peggy and it being about her, or him keeping the marriage going by having an affair on the side. Plus it showed Peggy why Ted wasn't for her. 

[TigerLynx]

I thought the writers did a pretty good job of showing Betty still being miserable in her marriage to Don, and her growing attraction for Henry.  However, with Don and Megan, I thought it played that Don was more subconsciously checked out, and waiting for Megan to end things which she eventually did.

I wish Peggy hadn't fallen for Ted's my marriage is over, even though I haven't gotten around to ending it, my wife doesn't understand me crap.  I didn't think Ted's marriage would last, but I also didn't think he and Peggy would end up together.

[Melancholy]

21 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

I wish Peggy hadn't fallen for Ted's my marriage is over, even though I haven't gotten around to ending it, my wife doesn't understand me crap.  I didn't think Ted's marriage would last, but I also didn't think he and Peggy would end up together.

Although, Ted wasn't feeding Peggy that crap until right before they slept together for the first and last time. And Peggy knew it was toxic- "Peggy, I'm going to leave my wife." "Don't say that. I'm not that girl." And then they pork.

 I think for most of their relationship, Peggy didn't feel like she had to wrestle with the ethical implications because they weren't sleeping together. It was obvious to the entire world that this was an intense emotional affair but Peggy was able to disassociate herself so that she regarded it as The Correct and Righteous Form of A Boss/Employee Relationship. She yearned for Ted to move the relationship into a sexual, romantic one and blatantly approached him to do so but with the ball in Ted's court to turn it into a full blown affair, Peggy didn't think it was incumbent on her to think of the consequences to Ted's family or the workplace (given her strident self righteous problem with Don/Megan at work) because she wasn't going to make The Ultimate Move. Maybe if Ted/Peggy continued as a sexual relationship she'd be more thoughtful on the consequences and her own toxic, hypocritical role, but it didn't. I think through the end of the series, Peggy only considered the relationship in terms of her being done wrong by Ted leaving and Don "sending him away".

[txhorns79]

On a lighter note: "She has plans.  Look at her calendar: February 14: Masturbate gloomily."  Still my favorite all time line from Mad Men.

[Melancholy]

The wit sparked in that scene.

Stan (looking at the elaborate flowers on Peggy's desk): Hard to believe your cat has the money. 

[sistermagpie]

57 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

On a lighter note: "She has plans.  Look at her calendar: February 14: Masturbate gloomily."  Still my favorite all time line from Mad Men.

Apparently that was an actual line from MW's life. I think someone actually wrote it on his calendar when he was single. He said it in the commentary.

[txhorns79]

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Apparently that was an actual line from MW's life. I think someone actually wrote it on his calendar when he was single. He said it in the commentary.

It's just so perfect, and so encapsulates Peggy's life at that moment.  The line about not realizing her cat could afford flowers was good too. 

[voiceover]

Ugh.  Lou.  The Frank Burns of advertising.

Only Frank in the 70s, when all the passion he'd shown for Margaret was long gone.

I have worked for Lous [plural of Lou] before, and it's soul-destroying.  The mystery is not that Peggy broke down.  It's that it took her that long.

[qtpye]

Do you guys think Peggy will be happy at Mcaan?  Don will probably be a star after the coke ad, but will this firm put up with his shenanigans for long?

[Melancholy]

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

Do you guys think Peggy will be happy at Mcaan?  Don will probably be a star after the coke ad, but will this firm put up with his shenanigans for long?

I think it'll be mixed for Peggy. Actually, I could see Peggy loving the mega structure at McCann and how huge it is. I do see Peggy was quite dazzled by bigger accounts- asking to be on Hilton, how her fury on not working on Jaguar snowballed into quitting, "Don't you want to work on Coke?" etc. I don't think she feels the romance of the Sisyphean task of trying to grow a small company like Don. She would enjoy the bigger, more famous companies. Peggy was very frustrated by the disorganization of small companies, especially with disorganized men at the top modeling a "use up paper to mop up spilled drinks...after their afternoon naps." I think *a lot* of the time, Peggy enjoys clear guidelines that don't change with moods and punctual meetings. 

However, that's not all the time. Peggy does like her own freedom to operate and go to the movies and insist on her favored assignments. She chafes under commandments, and getting lots of commandments and criticism from a variety of bosses is endemic to working in a huge company. Generally, I do think Peggy will pick the security but limits of corporate life over the freedom but chaos of small business life. However, she'll have regrets. I happen to headcanon that Peggy stays at McCann through her career but she never makes CD or partner. She makes good money and works hard on prestigious campaigns but McCann is a boys club. Bringing in clients is how you become a profit participant more than talent and Peggy will always be limited by her gender to get the big blue chip Fortune 500 clients and she doesn't have the charisma or panache that they look for. That will always be a source of bitterness for Peggy- but I kind of see that as her eternal lot in life. To do very well professionally and to have the achievements that make the all nighters worthwhile. But to always remain steps below the height of power and glamour and money but to be close enough to it based on her high status that she constantly has to watch what she can't get. 

IMO, Don changed more professionally than Peggy did past S4. Peggy's big professional changes occurred at the start of the series, IMO. Don was changing and ricocheting dramatically through S7 and then into the last minute of the show so he's, as always, unpredictable but some themes stick. I think  McCann was already inclined to give Don special privileges that they wouldn't others because of Hobart's man crush and how Don comes with Chevy. The Coke ad would increase that. But McCann is still McCann- it's a regimented, cold place which prefers the status quo to the hustle so even Don can't reach his levels of SC chaos. And actually, I think Don had been inclined to be more of a compliant employee than he would at any other time because the S7A termination plot gave him new perspective on how much he needs a job to give structure and a formal creative outlet and he really did feel that he rode the "I want to build something!" as far as it could go. Until he ran off the job for personal reasons, lol. However, I think there would always be a conflict between McCann and Don for these reasons, they're both inclined to meet each other in the middle to live with each other. Because I do agree with Roger that Don is the kind of guy who'd drop dead in a pitch meeting. I think that foreshadowed Don's likely fatal heart attack after decades of poisoning himself. 

Edited September 29, 2017 by Melancholy

[voiceover]

I think dropping dead in a pitch meeting was how Don wanted to go. But it would have to be a good pitch (I just deleted "the best pitch ever" because, upon second thought, I don't think he'd care about that part).  And just as the client is teetering on the edge -- BOOM!

I actually came to post about Bonnie's story about the $100,000 house/the year of hideous servitude/the cigarette flung from the car/the greatest commission ever: lost.  I missed it the 1st time around because, after Season 3, I was indifferent, and after he married Megan, I hate-watched. 

But Bonnie really nailed it with that speech to Pete.  I know what her fate was, and I gotta say, I hope he had regrets.

[teacake]

4 hours ago, qtpye said:

Do you guys think Peggy will be happy at Mcaan?  Don will probably be a star after the coke ad, but will this firm put up with his shenanigans for long?

I think Peggy will be a lot of things at McCann, including frustrated and challenged.  I think she's moving to a place where she is starting to see the big picture of her career, and getting satisfaction from that, rather than living and dying by the every day annoyances.  But it won't be a straight path and she'll always be Peggy, who gets hung up on the things in her way.  I think the bonding with Roger over vermouth and rollerskates was purposeful, and they will have more to do with each other at work in 1970's.

I'm not sure what happens to Don at work.  I'm sure has a few more episodes of cycling up and down in him, and I remember his speech to Ted about needing to work or die.  But I don't know how long he would survive there.

Bringing in clients is how you become a profit participant more than talent and Peggy will always be limited by her gender to get the big blue chip Fortune 500 clients and she doesn't have the charisma or panache that they look for.

I thought she made a good decision by not going into business with Joan, but if Peggy does ever want to step out on her own, Joan would still be a great partner to fill out those weaknesses.

[qtpye]

48 minutes ago, lska said:

 

 

I thought she made a good decision by not going into business with Joan, but if Peggy does ever want to step out on her own, Joan would still be a great partner to fill out those weaknesses.

Joan was a very interesting character study.  In the beginning of the series she can be a bit of an arrogant queen bee and know it all.  Her ego was really bruised when her asshole husband threw her over easily and she was a single mother.  We all know Joan was good at her job, but she is not the most progressive person and had strict rules for how a woman should behave.  She really thought her power was her looks and how she could expertly cater to powerful men.  Tom and Lorenzo commented that when Joan made money, she still did not move out of her one bedroom apartment.  Her apartment, which was okay at the beginning of the series, started to look a little dated and run down at the end, because she refused to change a thing.  Tom and Lorenzo commented that even though she dressed like a bombshell, she really was not that sophisticated in her world view.

She lost a lot of her arrogance when she made partner.  She was not just ashamed of how she got there, but was still uncomfortable in a position that she thought should be occupied by a man.  She still was doing things like mistaking a client dinner as a date.  However, she soon came into her own and was ready to jump head first in her own business, when it became apparent there was no place for her at McCaan.

[voiceover]

4 hours ago, qtpye said:

when Joan made money, she still did not move out of her one bedroom apartment.  Her apartment, which was okay at the beginning of the series, started to look a little dated and run down at the end, because she refused to change a thing

I've been curious about that.  As referenced above, I feel like my previous hate-watching led to missing things.  Like what Joan was doing with all that extra money.

[Melancholy]

10 hours ago, qtpye said:

Joan was a very interesting character study.  In the beginning of the series she can be a bit of an arrogant queen bee and know it all.  Her ego was really bruised when her asshole husband threw her over easily and she was a single mother.  We all know Joan was good at her job, but she is not the most progressive person and had strict rules for how a woman should behave.  She really thought her power was her looks and how she could expertly cater to powerful men.  Tom and Lorenzo commented that when Joan made money, she still did not move out of her one bedroom apartment.  Her apartment, which was okay at the beginning of the series, started to look a little dated and run down at the end, because she refused to change a thing.  Tom and Lorenzo commented that even though she dressed like a bombshell, she really was not that sophisticated in her world view.

She lost a lot of her arrogance when she made partner.  She was not just ashamed of how she got there, but was still uncomfortable in a position that she thought should be occupied by a man.  She still was doing things like mistaking a client dinner as a date.  However, she soon came into her own and was ready to jump head first in her own business, when it became apparent there was no place for her at McCaan.

Joan's arrogance is interesting because it's double-sided with insecurity and it occurs in two different ways. I agree that early seasons!Joan was arrogant about her looks and effect on men and most damagingly, about how her buy-in in antiquated Cold War era gender politics was completely correct and how all women should behave. However part of the last is that Joan undervalued her intelligence and ability to get on without a man taking care of her. "The men who designed this typewriter made it easy enough for a woman to use." Joan's ego about her correctness of living and her feminine judgment in men was badly bruised by S3-4 when Greg turned out to be such a failure and she could feel her career stalling more clearly when she was no longer the single object of desire around the office. However through Greg's failure, Joan actually developed more confidence in her self-reliance and ability to get on without him. 

Greg: The army needs me!

Joan: That works out great because we don't. 

But then, Joan's life and status changed very dramatically, oddly, and singularly because she was elevated to Partner based on *one night of sex*. Tom/Lorenzo had some line about Peggy and Betty represent millions of women across the country in the '60s while Joan became a soap opera character. They were speaking out bitterness because Joan didn't come off well in her S7 fight with Don. I'm not exactly saying this in a bitter way. I think there's room to tell dramatic reversals of fortune that could only happen to one person. However, it does capture a big truth differentiating Joan from a lot of the characters. To deal with her circumstances, I think Joan developed a new arrogance/insecurity conundrum. She had a brittle defensive imposter syndrome about how she was elevated to Partner so quickly so she compensated by appointing herself The Decider. Joan became so convinced that all of her choices were correct and any dissent or upsetting her agenda could only come from a bad, sexist, stupid place. That arrogant mindset came out a lot in Joan's storylines- the Avon dispute with Pete and Peggy, her long grudge against Don because she felt entitled to an IPO, cooperating with Cutler to sign partners' names to a letter saying Don was in breach of contract without advising the other partners of what they were "signing", her belief that the partners not backing her up in firing Scarlett and possibly, Dawn has to be automatically wrong and coming from a sexist place, etc. IMO, arrogance was part of how she handled herself at McCann in not asking for help from her co-partners from SC even when it was offered to her and believing that she would have more success directly confronting Hobart on her third day at McCann. 

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, voiceover said:

I've been curious about that.  As referenced above, I feel like my previous hate-watching led to missing things.  Like what Joan was doing with all that extra money.

Her clothes were more expensive and she had more gold jewelry, I believe T&O noted. But she just never seemed to have any interest in moving or redecorating. Which definitely seems to say something about Joan. I think there's multiple reasons for it, but when I think of her 50s apartment that she never got out of and ultimately turned into a home office, I also think of her saying "all these people are dancing to my music" in Christmas Waltz. For her the 50s was when she was having the most fun and she'd always be attached to that decade.

[Melancholy]

I think Joan went on more vacations. It was extremely endearing that she was planning a family trip to the tropics once she made partner. It also appears that she made arrangements for Gail to live elsewhere by S7b. Not sure if that meant paying for Gail's housing or just, ponying up the money for a babysitter for Kevin. 

Also, it's important to remember that Joan wasn't instantly rich on making partner. She made partner at the end of 1967. She was earning the smallest portion, 5%, of the profits until the summer of 1969. I think that 5% was very healthy because SC did quite well once they got Dow (billing what Lucky Strike did) and especially once they merged and got Chevy. Yes, she was very rich by 1970 but we didn't get a lot of time with her adjusting to her new money and plotting her next phase of her life. She was just trying to start that. It's also harder to move as a single person. Married people plan and egg each other on to live more nicely. Single people are more likely to be used to their living circumstances and older prudent single women like Joan are inclined to be cautious about making huge permanent purchases and changes that she'll have to carrry on her own. 

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Melancholy said:

Yes, she was very rich by 1970 but we didn't get a lot of time with her adjusting to her new money and plotting her next phase of her life. She was just trying to start that.

Look at Pete, after all. He gets even richer but there's no discernible change in his lifestyle at all. Granted that's in large part because he was already living comfortably, plus he's always going to come across as a rich person because he was brought up as one. But still there's no real stories about him starting to live better. He stays in the uninteresting one-bedroom after he's separated, and even in California Bonnie says he's not living in a nice place. His interest in where he lives comes with his remarriage (wanting Trudy to pick their house).  And his one conversation about it with Ken is mostly about how it's complicated. The main person we see adjusting to more wealth is really Peggy. She buys a building (which wasn't really her decision and isn't really right for her), Joan starts a business.

[Melancholy]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Look at Pete, after all. He gets even richer but there's no discernible change in his lifestyle at all. Granted that's in large part because he was already living comfortably, plus he's always going to come across as a rich person because he was brought up as one. But still there's no real stories about him starting to live better. He stays in the uninteresting one-bedroom after he's separated, and even in California Bonnie says he's not living in a nice place. His interest in where he lives comes with his remarriage (wanting Trudy to pick their house).  And his one conversation about it with Ken is mostly about how it's complicated. The main person we see adjusting to more wealth is really Peggy. She buys a building (which wasn't really her decision and isn't really right for her), Joan starts a business.

Yup. Mad Men does focus on the Silent Generation, the generation who had their childhoods in the Great Depression but came of working age in the boom of 50s and 60s. Don/Betty/Joan are on the older side while Pete/Peggy are on the younger side but they're all Silents. The Great Depression is mainly discussed on having an effect on Don because he's the lead and he's the only one who lived in the historical nightmarish impoverished bottom caste of Depression. However, there are hints that Joan and Pete were touched by financial worries. I think Pete really felt how his worth was wrapped up in Being A Dykman but his grandfather dumped the fortune in the 29 panic just before he was born and how his parents blew through the principal. Pete didn't know how bad the financial irresponsibility was until his dad died but I read that Pete knew there was financial irresponsiblity early on with how he was grooming Ho Ho through college and his "I can't explain business to you" to his dad in New Amsterdam. Meanwhile, Joan sees Gail's failure to hold onto a man and resulting pitiful existence as a warning too. 

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Melancholy said:

Yup. Mad Men does focus on the Silent Generation, the generation who had their childhoods in the Great Depression but came of working age in the boom of 50s and 60s. Don/Betty/Joan are on the older side while Pete/Peggy are on the younger side but they're all Silents. The Great Depression is mainly discussed on having an effect on Don because he's the lead and he's the only one who lived in the historical nightmarish impoverished bottom caste of Depression. However, there are hints that Joan and Pete were touched by financial worries. I think Pete really felt how his worth was wrapped up in Being A Dykman but his grandfather dumped the fortune in the 29 panic just before he was born and how his parents blew through the principal. Pete didn't know how bad the financial irresponsibility was until his dad died but I read that Pete knew there was financial irresponsiblity early on with how he was grooming Ho Ho through college and his "I can't explain business to you" to his dad in New Amsterdam. Meanwhile, Joan sees Gail's failure to hold onto a man and resulting pitiful existence as a warning too. 

yeah, it's interesting that despite their different backgrounds Pete and Joan are really the two characters we see worrying about money. Like with Peggy we see her learning how to be a person with money. Don and Roger always have a ton of it, even when Roger's having a crisis when he gets divorced. Neither Pete or Joan is ever at the level of Don's childhood, but we see them both personally invested in making money, especially when the chance to go public comes up. They both have something about them that connects being really financially secure with respect/independence--without it being about splurging on fun rich stuff.

[txhorns79]

Quote

Yup. Mad Men does focus on the Silent Generation, the generation who had their childhoods in the Great Depression but came of working age in the boom of 50s and 60s. Don/Betty/Joan are on the older side while Pete/Peggy are on the younger side but they're all Silents.

I think Pete and Peggy would have known very little of the Great Depression outside of what their parents or history books told them.  IIRC Pete was born in '34, and Peggy was born in '40.  Pete might have some childhood memories of what was going on, but he would have been mostly ensconced in a very privileged world.  Peggy's earliest memories were probably more WW2-related than anything have to do with the Depression.   

Quote

They both have something about them that connects being really financially secure with respect/independence--without it being about splurging on fun rich stuff.

I think for Pete, he saw what happens if you die with messy financials.  I don't know if it was said directly, but I seem to recall that the only way Pete and his brother had kept their mother comfortable after their father died was essentially selling all her remaining assets.  For Joan, after her failed marriage she recognized that she was the only person who was going to look after she and her son.  Having financial independence was key to her plan.  

Quote

when Joan made money, she still did not move out of her one bedroom apartment.  Her apartment, which was okay at the beginning of the series, started to look a little dated and run down at the end, because she refused to change a thing

I think it was a two bedroom.  I did find it weird that Joan never updated a thing in her apartment, except maybe adding a color tv.  Her apartment would have looked extremely dated by 1970, and I don't see Joan as the type of person to decorate her home once in her 20s and never update it again. 

Edited October 2, 2017 by txhorns79

[qtpye]

3 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I think Pete and Peggy would have known very little of the Great Depression outside of what their parents or history books told them.  IIRC Pete was born in '34, and Peggy was born in '40.  Pete might have some childhood memories of what was going on, but he would have been mostly ensconced in a very privileged world.  Peggy's earliest memories were probably more WW2-related than anything have to do with the Depression.   

I think for Pete, he saw what happens if you die with messy financials.  I don't know if it was said directly, but I seem to recall that the only way Pete and his brother had kept their mother comfortable after their father died was essentially selling all her remaining assets.  For Joan, after her failed marriage she recognized that she was the only person who was going to look after she and her son.  Having financial independence was key to her plan.  

I think it was a two bedroom.  I did find it weird that Joan never updated a thing in her apartment, except maybe adding a color tv.  Her apartment would have looked extremely dated by 1970, and I don't see Joan as the type of person to decorate her home once in her 20s and never update it again. 

I think it was a two bedroom.  It meant that her mother and her son shared a room.

Was anyone else surprised by Joan's mother?  She seemed so ordinary.  I remember Joan once said her mother raised her to be admired.  She probably thought a woman that looked lile Joan would never have any issues with men, only to see her daughter end up in the same boat of being abandoned that she was.

I also wonder if Joan is rather frugal, because she grew up poor, though not as poor as Don?  I can not imagine a single mother in the thirties would have many options for careers.  However, I think Joan went to college...maybe she worked while she was in school?

[Melancholy]

6 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I think Pete and Peggy would have known very little of the Great Depression outside of what their parents or history books told them.  IIRC Pete was born in '34, and Peggy was born in '40.  Pete might have some childhood memories of what was going on, but he would have been mostly ensconced in a very privileged world.  Peggy's earliest memories were probably more WW2-related than anything have to do with the Depression.   

Sure. But Pete and Peggy are part of the  Silent Generation which is characterized by being formed by Great Depression. Note the years of the generation- mid to late 1920s to early 1940s. I didn't think the Great Depression shaped Peggy much so I didn't include her in the analysis. I get the vibe that her family was always blue collar but because they all stuck together and pooled resources, no one was truly impoverished even though Peggy's dad died when she was a child and Maaaa never had a job. Everyone had just always lived frugally without expecting much. However, Pete didn't need to feel shantytown deprivation over years to avoid being a casualty. His family lost enormous wealth that had been in the family since the Revolutionary War around when Pete was born. I think he absolutely felt that even before it was clear exactly how little of anything was left by his father's passing. 

Edited October 2, 2017 by Melancholy

[txhorns79]

Quote

However, Pete didn't need to feel shantytown deprivation over years to avoid being a casualty. His family lost enormous wealth that had been in the family since the Revolutionary War around when Pete was born. I think he absolutely felt that even before it was clear exactly how little of anything was left by his father's passing. 

I would agree that Pete's desire for financial stability came from what he observed in his family, but not for the reasons you suggest.  From what we saw, Pete's parents were unwilling to help him financially and were fairly cold to him.  Now, some of that reluctance to help might have been because his father was using the money for other purposes and even if he had wanted to loan Pete money, he could not do so.  However, regardless of the reason, I think Pete would take away from that, that he was on his own, leaving him to either make the money himself or borrow money from Trudy's parents. 

[TigerLynx]

Someone wouldn't necessarily have had to live or be born during the Great Depression for it to effect them.  For years, in some cases decades afterwards, people lived very frugally either because they had a comfortable live style, and lost it, or were already poor, but then made even more so by the Great Depression.  When WWII started, rationing would have as well, so even though people once again had money and jobs, they still would have to be careful with what they had.

Nowadays, Joan would be told to go to college, work hard, and become successful.  Back then Joan would have been encouraged to always look beautiful, and concentrate on finding a successful man to marry.  Betty, Mona, and Trudy would be good examples of why this was bad advice and a bad life plan.

When Don told Sally she was a beautiful girl, but she needed more than that.  I also took it to mean Sally would want more than that.

[Melancholy]

6 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I would agree that Pete's desire for financial stability came from what he observed in his family, but not for the reasons you suggest.  From what we saw, Pete's parents were unwilling to help him financially and were fairly cold to him.  Now, some of that reluctance to help might have been because his father was using the money for other purposes and even if he had wanted to loan Pete money, he could not do so.  However, regardless of the reason, I think Pete would take away from that, that he was on his own, leaving him to either make the money himself or borrow money from Trudy's parents. 

I agree that Pete decided that he had to make his own money partly because his parents wouldn't support him or bail him out because he was the least favorite child. But I think the Great Depression and the falling stock of his family also made an impression. The story of how the Dykemans lost their vast estate including much of Manhattan was such common knowledge that Bert Cooper knew about it. Pete was steeped in the trivial history of his storied family. How most the wealth was recently wiped out was the unspoken giant elephant of their family. That was the essence of the end of New Amsterdam for me. Pete just saw his economic life flash before his eyes when Don fired him and even though it was taken back, it was a reminder that he's a worker bee with an uncertain future that's hard to make and easy to blow up. By the end of the day, he doesn't have the wherewithal to soak up Dykeman admiration. So he passes off the anecdote to Trudy and gazes over the fair chunk of the island that his family used to own while Ella croons "Manhattan." A big part of his ennui is how his parents are a breath away or already disowned him but also how the days of the glorious rich Dykmans is over, wiped out in the Depression  

Bud was the favorite child and he went out and got a job where he appeared to be a hustler. The Dykemans as the idle wealthy died with their parents. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

A big part of his ennui is how his parents are a breath away or already disowned him but also how the days of the glorious rich Dykmans is over, wiped out in the Depression. 

I really don't know if that is true.  Both Pete and his brother seemed surprised at the fact that their parents were essentially broke at the time their father died.  My impression was that Pete's father had been spending the family's money on women, and he essentially bled the trust dry with his purchases.  If not for the dad, I think the family would have been financially sound.  I would agree they weren't ultrarich at the time the series began, but I got the impression they were supposed to still be seen as wealthy. I mean, Dot clearly had no idea about her financial status, and Pete mentions that his parents bailed Bud out of trouble to the tune of what sounded like several thousand dollars when he asked them for the money for a down payment on his house.  To me, that doesn't sound like a family whose financial status was in question, or was just putting on a show.        

[sistermagpie]

I think they were surprised that they were broke but they were very aware that they had lost tons in the crash. That would have hung over them already. If they were still at the level they'd started at dad's spending wouldn't have cleaned them out even. I think a family like that would make the distinction.  Part of Pete's triumph,  is that he's the one who starts rebuilding the family fortune. They were rich compared to many people but not compared to their past family. 

[Melancholy]

@sistermagpie, those are basically my sentiments. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

I think they were surprised that they were broke but they were very aware that they had lost tons in the crash. That would have hung over them already. If they were still at the level they'd started at dad's spending wouldn't have cleaned them out even. I think a family like that would make the distinction.  Part of Pete's triumph,  is that he's the one who starts rebuilding the family fortune. They were rich compared to many people but not compared to their past family. 

I honestly don't think Pete gives a darn about rebuilding the family fortune.  He wanted his success so he could rub it in his miserable parents' faces, and once they are dead, his triumph was rebuilding his family, not how much he was making. 

As for the Campbell family, I just presumed they are one of many branches of that particular Dyckman family.  Dot had the right pedigree and a trust, but I would guess the trust was there to keep her comfortable, and her husband was expected to make up the rest.  Instead, she married a loser who squandered her money. 

You guys could be entirely right, but I just never looked at the family or Pete in that way.