Mad Men - General Discussion

[Melancholy]

2 hours ago, DeccaMitford said:

Oh, same. And I don't think anything she said to him was as needlessly nasty as some of what he said to her in season 4 when he was first introduced. I get that he was supposed to have changed (probably with her influence, or something

Although like every single multi-episode  male character who made it to the later seasons learned to not be misogynistic to Peggy.  From Mathis and that other guy from CGC who started as jerk to Peggy on up. Even Lou was improving by The Strategy. She was just too powerful in the sense that she leads the day to day work of the agency's actual work product (as opposed to Joan's titular greater power but her weaker jurisdiction just over secretaries.) Stan's respect for Peggy felt less tied to True Love when it was the case with every other guy on the show. 

Peggy/Stan works for me more when it's not Peggy's endgame but instead an example of how she's going to keep bravely looking for all types of happiness past the dreaded age of 30. It's frustrating to watch and I've criticized it before but it's strangely admirable that Peggy makes such fool hardy choices in love. Pete, the just married accountman who introduced himself to her as a total asshole. Ted, the married man unlikely to leave his wife. Duck, the washed up older man who per her roommate doesn't even have the romance or guilt-present value of being married. Abe, the determinedly poor hippie who detracts from her climb to universal ideals of success. However Peggy had feelings and she chased after them because unlike the other women on the show, Peggy knew that she could count on her own mind and work to support herself. Stan may fit in that category. She knows that he was recently unfaithful, it's easy to fight with him because they can both frequently be assholes, he's not ambitious and he'd likely be a financial burden to a Peggy on her way to the top and Peggy has found that intolerable in a man, and she's shitting where she eats by dating a coworker. But damnit, she's been attracted and she's frustrated from years of UST with this guy and she loves his art and how it feels when they collaborate on a project and the warmth of confessing her darkest secret and receiving love. She'll go after the good stuff now and know that she can handle any fallout. On that level, I've sort of talked myself into Peggy/Stan (for now) but not forever. 

[DeccaMitford]

19 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

On that level, I've sort of talked myself into Peggy/Stan (for now) but not forever. 

Yeah, like I said, I buy that they would care about each other enough and be attracted enough to go for it. Making each other happy over the long term is more of a roll of the dice.

I noticed in your list of terrible Peggy boyfriends, you left off dopey Mark! Everyone always forgets about Mark, and no wonder - I don't know what she was doing there. Even with Duck I can find out (dysfunctional) reasons why Peggy would get and stay involved with him, but what did she even see in Mark? What need was he serving beyond being present and available and willing? Maybe I answered my own question.

My read on Mark's surprise family birthday dinner in The Suitcase has always been that he was intending to propose that night, and Peggy was unconsciously sabotaging it, though I admit that's more of a head-canon.

[Melancholy]

Lol, because Mark was an outlier. Mark was a Nice Boy who her family would approve of who Peggy mainly seemed to get involved with so she could have a respectable boyfriend. He was Peggy's only relationship on the conventional conveyor belt of success- so of course, it was the nonentity relationship that Peggy didn't really care about. He's the exception that proves the rule. 

Edited September 20, 2017 by Melancholy

[sistermagpie]

39 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

Lol, because Mark was an outlier. Mark was a Nice Boy who her family would approve of who Peggy mainly seemed to get involved with so she could have a respectable boyfriend. He was Peggy's only relationship on the conventional conveyor belt of success- so of course, it was the nonentity relationship that Peggy didn't really care about. He's the exception that proves the rule. 

Wasn't that even the guy she pretended to be a virgin with? It's like every single thing about him was Peggy trying to go out with a guy that her family would approve of and Peggy herself would have no interest in whatsoever. 

Even if he wasn't the whole set up says this is a guy fine with using her family to pressure her into behaving in the way he wants her to behave. He's exactly the type who *would* make the proposal as public as possible so Peggy would have to consider everyone's opinions instead of just her own.

[TigerLynx]

52 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Wasn't that even the guy she pretended to be a virgin with? It's like every single thing about him was Peggy trying to go out with a guy that her family would approve of and Peggy herself would have no interest in whatsoever. 

Even if he wasn't the whole set up says this is a guy fine with using her family to pressure her into behaving in the way he wants her to behave. He's exactly the type who *would* make the proposal as public as possible so Peggy would have to consider everyone's opinions instead of just her own.

This is why while I wouldn't have thought Peggy and Stan would get together, I also don't have a problem with it.  Peggy survived other relationships that didn't work out, she negotiated her way to a successful career despite all the obstacles she faced, and she is continuing to do so.  Better to move forward with your life and do what you want, than to marry someone just because your parents or other people think you should, and end up miserable.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, TigerLynx said:

This is why while I wouldn't have thought Peggy and Stan would get together, I also don't have a problem with it.  Peggy survived other relationships that didn't work out, she negotiated her way to a successful career despite all the obstacles she faced, and she is continuing to do so.  Better to move forward with your life and do what you want, than to marry someone just because your parents or other people think you should, and end up miserable.

Yeah, whether or not Peggy and Stan worked out there's nothing to worry about with it, at least. She and Stan genuinely enjoy each other's company enough that they would have long phone conversations about nothing just to keep each other company. One of the things that seemed like a theme toward the end of the show was how the characters were all starting to see the importance of that over someone who fit a romantic ideal or was a mystery. That's why I always love that scene after the partners all go to the bar for a beer after they find out they're being sold. They all (except for Don) know just who they want to talk to and hang out with to feel better after getting bad news, just as Peggy would want to hang out with Stan. At least one of those relationships ends before the series is over (Joan and Richard) but it's still a healthy impulse, it seems.

[TigerLynx]

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I always loved the irony that Don's financial support gave Megan more opportunity to go after the career she wanted and it seemed to just made it worse because she had all this money and time and even some connections and things still didn't happen. Her friend Julia seemed to be doing better when she needed to work in order to not have to be a waitress. (We know that Megan started out waiting tables while trying to be an actress and quit.) If there was one line that really hung over Megan through the series was her father's about having skipped to the end and skipped the struggle. 

Don didn't like what Marie and Emil had to say about Megan, but they both turned out to be right.

 

Quote

Yeah, whether or not Peggy and Stan worked out there's nothing to worry about with it, at least. She and Stan genuinely enjoy each other's company enough that they would have long phone conversations about nothing just to keep each other company. One of the things that seemed like a theme toward the end of the show was how the characters were all starting to see the importance of that over someone who fit a romantic ideal or was a mystery. That's why I always love that scene after the partners all go to the bar for a beer after they find out they're being sold. They all (except for Don) know just who they want to talk to and hang out with to feel better after getting bad news, just as Peggy would want to hang out with Stan. At least one of those relationships ends before the series is over (Joan and Richard) but it's still a healthy impulse, it seems.

Considering all of the characters who got married for all the wrong reasons, this is a very good thing.

I don't believe Roger Sterling changed.  He is who he is, but Marie understands that, and seems able to keep his interest.

Edited September 21, 2017 by TigerLynx

[sistermagpie]

13 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

Considering all of the characters who got married for all the wrong reasons, this is a very good thing.

I don't believe Roger Sterling changed.  He is who he is, but Marie understands that, and seems able to keep his interest.

Right--especially with the men, you don't feel like they're expecting the woman to turn them into some guy they want to be, like Don with Megan or Roger thinking marrying young Jane will make him young. And there's a lot of little lines that make it clear that these days the women actually get to talk about have their own complaints.

[Dejana]

9 hours ago, DeccaMitford said:

Yeah, like I said, I buy that they would care about each other enough and be attracted enough to go for it. Making each other happy over the long term is more of a roll of the dice.

I noticed in your list of terrible Peggy boyfriends, you left off dopey Mark! Everyone always forgets about Mark, and no wonder - I don't know what she was doing there. Even with Duck I can find out (dysfunctional) reasons why Peggy would get and stay involved with him, but what did she even see in Mark? What need was he serving beyond being present and available and willing? Maybe I answered my own question.

My read on Mark's surprise family birthday dinner in The Suitcase has always been that he was intending to propose that night, and Peggy was unconsciously sabotaging it, though I admit that's more of a head-canon.

Just the thought of Mark makes me LOL, from introducing himself to Don as Peggy's fiancé in "Public Relations", to trying to convince Peggy into bed with that article about Swedish people ("You're never going to get me to do anything Swedish people do"). I bet he was the virgin of that pair, for all of his talk about sex. He looked all of 16, bless his heart. I agree, he probably was going to propose in "The Suitcase" and invited her family and roommate along so there'd be added pressure for her to say yes.

[qtpye]

18 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I always loved the irony that Don's financial support gave Megan more opportunity to go after the career she wanted and it seemed to just made it worse because she had all this money and time and even some connections and things still didn't happen. Her friend Julia seemed to be doing better when she needed to work in order to not have to be a waitress. (We know that Megan started out waiting tables while trying to be an actress and quit.) If there was one line that really hung over Megan through the series was her father's about having skipped to the end and skipped the struggle. 

I have watched that episode and I feel like Megan's father is a lot more toxic the we realize.  He come off an educated man of high principles, but he really was jealous of Don and it is very subtle.  All episode he is witnessing Don's power and prestige, while his book is a failure and his marriage is dead.  At the award ceremony,  he sees a chance to sow seeds of discontent.  He knows his daughter and says the exact right thing for her to get bitten by the acting bug again.  It is from here that Megan wants to get out of advertising and even though there is nothing wrong with that on its own, we know it is the beginning of the end for their marriage.  I am one of those who always thought Don woul still adore Megan if she was still in advertising (which is wrong, but Don is messed up).

[DeccaMitford]

I don't know, I think Megan's discontent had been building, and was really triggered (ironically) by having a big success with Heinz. There was a moment when the office is celebrating the win, and Peggy tells Megan that "this is as good as this job gets," clearly expecting her to be as excited as Peggy would have been, and Megan's face falls a little bit. It's like she realized then that the biggest moments of triumph in advertising didn't feel the way they were supposed to, because advertising wasn't what she wanted to be doing.

And I think that while Don and Megan's marriage would have fallen apart differently if she stayed in advertising, I don't see it lasting forever either way. I think she would have become increasingly miserable until something snapped.

[Melancholy]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

I have watched that episode and I feel like Megan's father is a lot more toxic the we realize.  He come off an educated man of high principles, but he really was jealous of Don and it is very subtle.  All episode he is witnessing Don's power and prestige, while his book is a failure and his marriage is dead.  At the award ceremony,  he sees a chance to sow seeds of discontent.  He knows his daughter and says the exact right thing for her to get bitten by the acting bug again.  It is from here that Megan wants to get out of advertising and even though there is nothing wrong with that on its own, we know it is the beginning of the end for their marriage.  I am one of those who always thought Don woul still adore Megan if she was still in advertising (which is wrong, but Don is messed up).

I agree that Emile was very unhappy about his failures and jealous of Don- but he's entitled to those feelings. It certainly could go in a classist unfair way ("His manners are...studied.") and even lol ("One day your little girl will spread her legs and fly away" even if he didn't intend the sex part). But Megan seemed unhappy and wrong- the anxious speedy way that she narrates their expensive possessions before her parents have even been in the apartment for 5 minutes, how Don's kids arrived as a reminder that Don's had this whole failed life before Megan, and Megan's melancholy at the ball where she's low-grade annoyed at being introduced as a prodigy and mainly seems tired and bored at what should be a magnificent night for someone who truly loved being Don's partner in advertising and love. Emile's behavior was indeed colored by his own baggage but I do think he was speaking out of genuine concern for Megan. 

 

13 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

I don't believe Roger Sterling changed.  He is who he is, but Marie understands that, and seems able to keep his interest.

Roger changed in other ways IMO. He evolved to take business and his job more seriously. The changing societal rules affected him so he was less prejudiced and sexist and had a more egalitarian attitude to Peggy or Shirley than he would in the past. His standards of friendship and loyalty and masculinity evolved so he stuck by Don even after Hershey. But on matters of romance and hedonism and dealing with discomfort or payouts after a relationship failing, I don't think he really evolved. And that could easily be a problem for Marie because I think Roger is going to chase whatever's new and fun when it comes to sex until he's too sick and old to do so. He feels no responsibility to spend on the women he's leaving behind when there's future coatcheck girls to be bribed with room service. 

16 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, whether or not Peggy and Stan worked out there's nothing to worry about with it, at least  

I mean, it's sort of a problem if Peggy wants to get married to The One. And I believe she really, really does. Peggy dates unsuitable guys because she follows her heart and knows she can take care of herself and that's empowering. But on the flip side, she does ideally want to find a husband to make her life complete. (I think she's agnostic on having a child.) She is anxious that she's past 30 and it hasn't happened yet. And when her relationships with these unsuitable men fail, her heart is broken and she's in pain. So, I think Stan is a bad choice long term and it's not the end of the world because Peggy can pick herself back up again but it is part of a pattern that's made her unhappy and deterred her from the longed-for security of settling down with a worthy partner. 

Edited September 21, 2017 by Melancholy

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, Melancholy said:

I agree that Emile was very unhappy about his failures and jealous of Don- but he's entitled to those feelings. It certainly could go in a classist unfair way ("His manners are...studied.") and even lol ("One day your little girl will spread her legs and fly away" even if he didn't intend the sex part). But Megan seemed unhappy and wrong- the anxious speedy way that she narrates their expensive possessions before her parents have even been in the apartment for 5 minutes, how Don's kids arrived as a reminder that Don's had this whole failed life before Megan, and Megan's melancholy at the ball where she's low-grade annoyed at being introduced as a prodigy and mainly seems tired and bored at what should be a magnificent night for someone who truly loved being Don's partner in advertising and love. Emile's behavior was indeed colored by his own baggage but I do think he was speaking out of genuine concern for Megan. 

 

Roger changed in other ways IMO. He evolved to take business and his job more seriously. The changing societal rules affected him so he was less prejudiced and sexist and had a more egalitarian attitude to Peggy or Shirley than he would in the past. His standards of friendship and loyalty and masculinity evolved so he stuck by Don even after Hershey. But on matters of romance and hedonism and dealing with discomfort or payouts after a relationship failing, I don't think he really evolved. And that could easily be a problem for Marie because I think Roger is going to chase whatever's new and fun when it comes to sex until he's too sick and old to do so. He feels no responsibility to spend on the women he's leaving behind when there's future coatcheck girls to be bribed with room service. 

I mean, it's sort of a problem if Peggy wants to get married to The One. And I believe she really, really does. Peggy dates unsuitable guys because she follows her heart and knows she can take care of herself and that's empowering. But on the flip side, she does ideally want to find a husband to make her life complete. (I think she's agnostic on having a child.) She is anxious that she's past 30 and it hasn't happened yet. And when her relationships with these unsuitable men fail, her heart is broken and she's in pain. So, I think Stan is a bad choice long term and it's not the end of the world because Peggy can pick herself back up again but it is part of a pattern that's made her unhappy and deterred her from the longed-for security of settling down with a worthy partner. 

Do you remember when she was working on the Ponds account with Freddy and he said women are most motivated by wanting to get married.  I remember how that statement annoyed both her and me.  Of course Faye's research found that to be true.

Peggy wants to be married, but her first love and priority will always be advertising.  Men of her time period, even the ones that are progressive, will find this difficult.

[Melancholy]

2 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Do you remember when she was working on the Ponds account with Freddy and he said women are most motivated by wanting to get married.  I remember how that statement annoyed both her and me.  Of course Faye's research found that to be true.

Peggy wants to be married, but her first love and priority will always be advertising.  Men of her time period, even the ones that are progressive, will find this difficult.

Peggy admitted to Freddy that she wanted to her married after fighting him on selling Ponds to help women get married. Then, she went through the charade of pretending that she gave her virginity to Mark because Freddy made her feel like she needed to do that to get married. She bought the brownstone in the ghetto that she really didn't want because Abe dangled how it would be a marital home to raise children. When she tells Don "I want what he has...you have everything and so much of it", she's referring to his job and office rank but also being married and having legitimate children in that union. "Third time. Must be old hat."  

I agree that Peggy wants marriage and children but in such a way that she can still put her work first guilt free. Like a man. Except it's more complicated because I don't think Peggy really wants a beta guy who makes less than her and isn't ambitious. But this is The Modern Woman's paradox. 

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, DeccaMitford said:

I don't know, I think Megan's discontent had been building, and was really triggered (ironically) by having a big success with Heinz. There was a moment when the office is celebrating the win, and Peggy tells Megan that "this is as good as this job gets," clearly expecting her to be as excited as Peggy would have been, and Megan's face falls a little bit. It's like she realized then that the biggest moments of triumph in advertising didn't feel the way they were supposed to, because advertising wasn't what she wanted to be doing.

 

I agree. I remember at the time there was discussion about exactly what Megan's problem was because she obviously wasn't happy, and there was no doubt in my mind that's what was going on. I was surprised there were even other theories. She definitely wasn't going to be happy in advertising, her father just happened to be the one to say it out loud very succinctly. Megan was already uncomfortable just having him there because she already knew his views. If she really felt good about her achievement it wouldn't have bothered her. Because the real problem wasn't even that she'd skipped to the end in advertising by marrying the boss, because even though she was getting perks she still did come up with that ad campaign on her own. It was that she'd given up on doing something that meant something to her, which Emile knew.

3 hours ago, Melancholy said:

I mean, it's sort of a problem if Peggy wants to get married to The One. And I believe she really, really does. Peggy dates unsuitable guys because she follows her heart and knows she can take care of herself and that's empowering. But on the flip side, she does ideally want to find a husband to make her life complete. (I think she's agnostic on having a child.) She is anxious that she's past 30 and it hasn't happened yet. And when her relationships with these unsuitable men fail, her heart is broken and she's in pain. So, I think Stan is a bad choice long term and it's not the end of the world because Peggy can pick herself back up again but it is part of a pattern that's made her unhappy and deterred her from the longed-for security of settling down with a worthy partner. 

If he turns out to be the wrong choice, you're right, he'll just be keeping her from finding the right guy. We've seen her do that to herself before, accepting less for Abe and even got herself into that whole mess with her apartment building just to be married. I don't know whether Stan is The One in terms of being the best she could do--it's not at all impossible to imagine them breaking up (which is true of just about every couple on the show!). But I could also see Stan marrying her. I guess it would come down to how their relationship would work as a romantic one, since we never really saw that.  

[teacake]

22 hours ago, Melancholy said:

Stan may fit in that category. She knows that he was recently unfaithful, it's easy to fight with him because they can both frequently be assholes, he's not ambitious and he'd likely be a financial burden to a Peggy on her way to the top and Peggy has found that intolerable in a man, and she's shitting where she eats by dating a coworker. But damnit, she's been attracted and she's frustrated from years of UST with this guy and she loves his art and how it feels when they collaborate on a project and the warmth of confessing her darkest secret and receiving love. She'll go after the good stuff now and know that she can handle any fallout. On that level, I've sort of talked myself into Peggy/Stan (for now) but not forever. 

Stan has a lot of flaws like everyone on Mad Men, but I disagree that he's not ambitious.  I think that's Peggy's view, with her own anxieties projected on him, the same way she puts her doubts on him in the same conversation ("I said the opposite!").

Stan isn't wrong that he's doing well.  He's the only other person from the creative team who managed to survive all of the various iterations of SCDP.  He's actually good at the corporate environment.  He may not be on track to rise as high as Peggy, but he's a salaried art director at one of the most cutthroat firms in Manhattan with probably a decade of experience in the business.  He's often at the office late, and when we see Peggy carping that no one else cares about the work, it obviously offends him because he's been there alongside her.  In his scenes with Elaine, we also saw that he is totally aware of the trends in the business that might make his skills obsolete and has his own angst about what he should do about it.  I saw a lot of signs that part of what attracts him to Peggy is that she has an appetite for success and when she follows her instincts good things happen, and he wants to be part of that.  It would be messy, and whether or not it ends up being healthy is an open question, but I think it could work for them.

[Melancholy]

20 minutes ago, lska said:

Stan has a lot of flaws like everyone on Mad Men, but I disagree that he's not ambitious.  I think that's Peggy's view, with her own anxieties projected on him, the same way she puts her doubts on him in the same conversation ("I said the opposite!").

Stan isn't wrong that he's doing well.  He's the only other person from the creative team who managed to survive all of the various iterations of SCDP.  He's actually good at the corporate environment.  He may not be on track to rise as high as Peggy, but he's a salaried art director at one of the most cutthroat firms in Manhattan with probably a decade of experience in the business.  He's often at the office late, and when we see Peggy carping that no one else cares about the work, it obviously offends him because he's been there alongside her.  In his scenes with Elaine, we also saw that he is totally aware of the trends in the business that might make his skills obsolete and has his own angst about what he should do about it.  I saw a lot of signs that part of what attracts him to Peggy is that she has an appetite for success and when she follows her instincts good things happen, and he wants to be part of that.  It would be messy, and whether or not it ends up being healthy is an open question, but I think it could work for them.

I agree that Stan is reasonably ambitious by many standards and made that point before. He also wanted to start SC West. I meant, that he's not ambitious by Peggy's standards. I think Peggy has class anxieties to the point that only a partner or some profit-participant or someone bound that way would be ambitious enough for her 

[sistermagpie]

23 minutes ago, lska said:

I saw a lot of signs that part of what attracts him to Peggy is that she has an appetite for success and when she follows her instincts good things happen, and he wants to be part of that.  It would be messy, and whether or not it ends up being healthy is an open question, but I think it could work for them.

One thing we should probably note is that Peggy wouldn't be attracted to him if he was *bad* at his job--that's probably more important to her than him being ambitious. I mean, the two go together--if he's not ambitious he's not going to put in the work. But I think we should assume that she respects his work. He's not a copywriter so we don't get the same kind of opinions from him, but for instance, when he says that he saw suicide in Don's Hawaiian pitch and liked it, that's Stan being ahead of the trend and not afraid to push the envelope. Don goes through periods where he's not being ambitious, but even when he's being disengaged at work he's always a good copywriter.

[txhorns79]

Quote

Peggy admitted to Freddy that she wanted to her married after fighting him on selling Ponds to help women get married. Then, she went through the charade of pretending that she gave her virginity to Mark because Freddy made her feel like she needed to do that to get married. She bought the brownstone in the ghetto that she really didn't want because Abe dangled how it would be a marital home to raise children. When she tells Don "I want what he has...you have everything and so much of it", she's referring to his job and office rank but also being married and having legitimate children in that union. "Third time. Must be old hat."  

I thought it was interesting that both Mark and Abe were the ones who ended up having to dump Peggy, even though she clearly was unhappy in the relationships.  It was like she refused to admit failure, even after she was so discombobulated in her relationship with Abe that she ended up accidentally stabbing him!  And seriously, future Abe must be kicking himself for walking away from that property.  He and Peggy would be millionaires several times over just from the resale of that property (providing they held onto it into the 1990s/2000s).   

Quote

I think Peggy has class anxieties to the point that only a partner or some profit-participant or someone bound that way would be ambitious enough for her 

I think Peggy does have status anxieties in that she sometimes feels excluded due to gender.  I think she does want to be with someone ambitious, but I don't think she necessarily cares about the money.  In her family alone, I'd bet she's already the most financially secure person.  Yes, she was a huge snobbish jerk to the truck driver back in the first season, but I don't think she'd behave that way in 1970. 

[TigerLynx]

I believe Don and Megan's marriage would have imploded eventually even if Megan hadn't returned to acting.  Also, it wasn't just Megan returning to acting that caused problems for them.  Don was supportive of Megan, even if he wasn't happy she was no longer at the office with him.  It was after Megan asked Don to get her the commercial that Don started cheating on Megan.  I think Don had some subconscious anger at Megan because of Betty.  Don tells both Roger and Pete that it is different with Megan.  He wouldn't cheat on Megan like he did Betty.  Don and Megan understand each other, they have a connection, blah, blah, blah.  Then Don starts cheating on Megan, and while Don does tend to live in Denial Land, a part of him knows his first marriage failing wasn't all on Betty.  Don got all self-righteous and judgmental when he found out about Henry, "You never did really forgive me did you?"  "For what, Don?" conveniently forgetting that he was still cheating on Betty with his daughter's teacher no less.  Don's second marriage didn't turn out any better than his first, and there is no way Don can blame Betty for that.  He can try to put all the blame on Megan, but the common denominator in both marriages is Don, and Betty's second marriage is working.

[qtpye]

13 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

I believe Don and Megan's marriage would have imploded eventually even if Megan hadn't returned to acting.  Also, it wasn't just Megan returning to acting that caused problems for them.  Don was supportive of Megan, even if he wasn't happy she was no longer at the office with him.  It was after Megan asked Don to get her the commercial that Don started cheating on Megan.  I think Don had some subconscious anger at Megan because of Betty.  Don tells both Roger and Pete that it is different with Megan.  He wouldn't cheat on Megan like he did Betty.  Don and Megan understand each other, they have a connection, blah, blah, blah.  Then Don starts cheating on Megan, and while Don does tend to live in Denial Land, a part of him knows his first marriage failing wasn't all on Betty.  Don got all self-righteous and judgmental when he found out about Henry, "You never did really forgive me did you?"  "For what, Don?" conveniently forgetting that he was still cheating on Betty with his daughter's teacher no less.  Don's second marriage didn't turn out any better than his first, and there is no way Don can blame Betty for that.  He can try to put all the blame on Megan, but the common denominator in both marriages is Don, and Betty's second marriage is working.

 It is the second marriage reality check that really made hom hate Megan.  In the first marriage you can say that you did not marry the right person.  Don could tell himself that Megan was "good" and Betty was "bad" and therefore he would never cheat on Megan.  Don was much more motivated to make his second marriage work to prove something to himself.  The stupidest thing was that I think Don first fell madly in love with Megan ( or what he thought was his idealized image if Megan) when she did not make a fuss about those stupid milkshakes.

15 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I thought it was interesting that both Mark and Abe were the ones who ended up having to dump Peggy, even though she clearly was unhappy in the relationships.  It was like she refused to admit failure, even after she was so discombobulated in her relationship with Abe that she ended up accidentally stabbing him!  And seriously, future Abe must be kicking himself for walking away from that property.  He and Peggy would be millionaires several times over just from the resale of that property (providing they held onto it into the 1990s/2000s).   

I think Peggy does have status anxieties in that she sometimes feels excluded due to gender.  I think she does want to be with someone ambitious, but I don't think she necessarily cares about the money.  In her family alone, I'd bet she's already the most financially secure person.  Yes, she was a huge snobbish jerk to the truck driver back in the first season, but I don't think she'd behave that way in 1970. 

I agee, Peggy likes artistic men who are passionate about their craft.  She considers advertising her art.  When shefirst meets Abe, he is shocked by this attitude.  Abe considers advertising lowly and craven.  This attitude is what causes him to break up with her, even though she is supporting him.

[TigerLynx]

44 minutes ago, qtpye said:

 It is the second marriage reality check that really made hom hate Megan.  In the first marriage you can say that you did not marry the right person.  Don could tell himself that Megan was "good" and Betty was "bad" and therefore he would never cheat on Megan.  Don was much more motivated to make his second marriage work to prove something to himself.  The stupidest thing was that I think Don first fell madly in love with Megan ( or what he thought was his idealized image if Megan) when she did not make a fuss about those stupid milkshakes.

I agee, Peggy likes artistic men who are passionate about their craft.  She considers advertising her art.  When shefirst meets Abe, he is shocked by this attitude.  Abe considers advertising lowly and craven.  This attitude is what causes him to break up with her, even though she is supporting him.

I agree.  When Megan was all happy, cool, and confident having a good time in California, Don was already attracted to her, but Megan being so blase about the milkshake, it's no big deal, let's keep enjoying ourselves, was when Don fell hard for who he thought Megan was.  When Megan threw a temper tantrum about Don not helping her get the commercial, that's when Don really realized Megan was not the secure confident woman he thought she was.  That doesn't mean it was okay for Don to start cheating on Megan, but I believe Betty had many more reasons to be angry at Don for the way he treated her than Megan did.

Abe stepped on my last nerve with his willingness to live off the money Peggy makes while disparaging what she does for a living.  Don't even get me started on Abe (a white guy) lecturing Peggy on how discrimination against women was not as bad as the discrimination against blacks.  Both kinds of discrimination are wrong, and no one should have to put up with it.

[qtpye]

29 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

I agree.  When Megan was all happy, cool, and confident having a good time in California, Don was already attracted to her, but Megan being so blase about the milkshake, it's no big deal, let's keep enjoying ourselves, was when Don fell hard for who he thought Megan was.  When Megan threw a temper tantrum about Don not helping her get the commercial, that's when Don really realized Megan was not the secure confident woman he thought she was.  That doesn't mean it was okay for Don to start cheating on Megan, but I believe Betty had many more reasons to be angry at Don for the way he treated her than Megan did.

Abe stepped on my last nerve with his willingness to live off the money Peggy makes while disparaging what she does for a living.  Don't even get me started on Abe (a white guy) lecturing Peggy on how discrimination against women was not as bad as the discrimination against blacks.  Both kinds of discrimination are wrong, and no one should have to put up with it.

It's funny both Roger and Don impulsively married younger women, thinking these women would give them the fantasy life they always dreamed of, only to have those marriages implode and make them actually appreciate what thy had with their first wives.

The ladies on this show were so beautiful, but none of them really had any luck with men.

Joan was en expert in attracting men and making their jaws drop.  However, once the initial attraction was gone, she seemed to have trouble holding their interest or respect.  Even Roger called her something like a great piece of ass , though later he does want to be a part of her and their son's life.

[txhorns79]

Quote

 It is the second marriage reality check that really made hom hate Megan.  In the first marriage you can say that you did not marry the right person.  Don could tell himself that Megan was "good" and Betty was "bad" and therefore he would never cheat on Megan.  Don was much more motivated to make his second marriage work to prove something to himself.  

I will always maintain it that Dr. Faye's theory regarding Don was correct.  He's very good at making big shows at the beginning of relationships, but doesn't seem to be able to see it through, or otherwise starts looking elsewhere if things aren't always perfect. 

Quote

Joan was en expert in attracting men and making their jaws drop.  However, once the initial attraction was gone, she seemed to have trouble holding their interest or respect.  Even Roger called her something like a great piece of ass , though later he does want to be a part of her and their son's life.

I don't know.  Roger seemed to really be there for Joan throughout their relationship and even after it was over.  I mean, when Joan left Sterling Cooper and needed to find a new job, Roger tried to help her, even though there was no suggestion that it would lead to anything between he and Joan. 

[sistermagpie]

15 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I will always maintain it that Dr. Faye's theory regarding Don was correct.  He's very good at making big shows at the beginning of relationships, but doesn't seem to be able to see it through, or otherwise starts looking elsewhere if things aren't always perfect. 

I love how towards the end of the series there's moments where you see Peggy and Pete, Don's two most obvious proteges, rejecting the main things he lives by. Peggy tells Stan about her baby, so she doesn't agree it never happened. Pete has that scene where he's talking about a second marriage and says that he has the impulse to start over and "get it right this time" (something Don always believes will work) but for Pete it leads to "But what if you never get past the beginning again?" And I believe Don responds by saying "Keep your eyes on the road." 

Another interesting thing about the Don/Megan marriage I got from listening to the commentary is that in the conversation with Sylvia MW talks about how if Don and Megan never have children that's an issue because it's unclear what the marriage is about - something Marie hints at later as well.

It's not that they're saying that marriages without children aren't worth as much, it seemed to me, but just, I think, that Don and Megan were sort of charting their own territory in their marriage if they weren't following the old script from the 50s. So if they're not building a family together, there's the question of what they're doing together if they're just both following different careers etc. Why are they married instead of just seeing each other, for instance?

Nowadays I think that's not the same question because there's very different expectations, but I think it is another thing that is a problem for them. You think about it, for instance, when Don gets the call from Betty about Sally being suspended and Megan saying that Don would rather be with his "ex-wife and his screwed up kids." Because yeah, Don and Betty will always be family. Don and Megan aren't. Not just because they don't have children themselves but because they don't really have a lot else either.

[TigerLynx]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

It's funny both Roger and Don impulsively married younger women, thinking these women would give them the fantasy life they always dreamed of, only to have those marriages implode and make them actually appreciate what thy had with their first wives.

I think Roger really regretted selling the original Sterling Cooper.  Roger thought he would leave Mona, marry Jane, have a young beautiful wife, even more money than he already had, and life would be great, but it wasn't, and then Roger ends up being the one scrambling to make sure he and Don stay working at the same place (which also doesn't work out).  I still laugh at, "They've figured out I don't need even one secretary, let alone two."

Bad idea for a sitcom.  Betty dies, and Don moves in with Henry and the children so they can raise them together.  High point of the show is when Uncle Roger stops by for a visit.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I love how towards the end of the series there's moments where you see Peggy and Pete, Don's two most obvious proteges, rejecting the main things he lives by. Peggy tells Stan about her baby, so she doesn't agree it never happened.

It's funny.  Peggy really rejects that advice at the end of Season 2 when she tells Pete about their baby. 

[sistermagpie]

14 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

It's funny.  Peggy really rejects that advice at the end of Season 2 when she tells Pete about their baby. 

Oh, absolutely. And she also reiterates it when she talks to Stan in The Crash and says he needs to let himself feel bad and not just try to escape it. It wasn't a new thing that Peggy had decided to reject that advice, it just seemed underlined that we saw her actually telling Stan the way she'd told Pete. Telling Pete was telling the father of the baby so she may have felt some extra reason she ought to do that, for instance. She needs to tell Pete to move on, you might think. But telling Stan really underlines how much Peggy wants this to be part of who she is even ten years later.

[Melancholy]

I will say it's considerably easier for Peggy to come to grips and vocalize having a baby and giving it up for adoption than for Don to do that with like.... the sum total of horror in his past. The fact that Don's desertion has criminal penalties up to and including the death penalty ensures that he runs the risk of destroying his life with every person he "confesses" to. The cost of getting a clear conscience and losing constant existential fear is potentially so steep that it's IMO not worth it. 

It is interesting that Don and Peggy both went into a deep disassociative state with regard to his rape and her pregnancy. It actually seems like Peggy's time in the asylum helped her acknowledge that she did, in fact, have a baby. She was helped more by Don putting that into context with how Peggy could lead a life outside the asylum and holding her new good job open for her so Peggy felt financial and public security. Her mother and sister were inclined to let Peggy sink into weak obedience and that's bad but it was probably helpful that Maa was assuring Peggy that she loved her in the asylum for at least basic parental security. Don didn't even have an asylum, let alone an ally with the inclination and/or power to make it better. He got Abigail beating him into believing it was his fault. The inflexibility of a childish psychological defense mechanism combined with the years it festered made it a headier disassociative state that like...."luckily" was ended with drugs because I didn't see it coming out without some inducing agent. 

Edited September 22, 2017 by Melancholy

[sistermagpie]

13 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

I will say it's considerably easier for Peggy to come to grips and vocalize having a baby and giving it up for adoption than for Don to do that with like.... the sum total of horror in his past. The fact that Don's desertion has criminal penalties up to and including the death penalty ensures that he runs the risk of destroying his life with every person he "confesses" to. The cost of getting a clear conscience and losing constant existential fear is potentially so steep that it's IMO not worth it. 

Oh, of course. There's no question--both that Don is in danger of actually going to prison and that Don's upbringing was far more damaging. Peggy's got one of the more supportive families on the show.

But that's also why Don's love of new beginnings is so extreme (and often really sympathetic). As a kid growing up dreams of running away and being someone else probably sustained him and got him through things that would have destroyed someone else. It's amazing he made the life that he did mostly via his powerful imagination.

But at this point at times the very thing that made him strong also hurts him (there's a lot of things like that about Don, I think). Because it's not just the problem of telling people his past but that he's terrified that if people know him intimately they'll reject him, and his instinct is often to run when it would be better to work through things. That, I think, is one reason he seems so much better off at the end of the series than at the start. He hasn't completely fixed himself, of course. There are some relationships that aren't going to weather the storm--like I get why he wants to just throw money at Megan in shame and run away from her. But he's also got a lot of people in his life who do know him--even some who know his past--and it's not as scary as it is in his imagination. 

[Athena]

On 9/22/2017 at 3:34 PM, sistermagpie said:

Telling Pete was telling the father of the baby so she may have felt some extra reason she ought to do that, for instance. She needs to tell Pete to move on, you might think. But telling Stan really underlines how much Peggy wants this to be part of who she is even ten years later.

Yes and telling Stan was more pivotal to who she was. She told Pete because there was an obligation as he was the father and she defined their relationship in a way: I could have kept the baby, could have had you, but I chose something else. While Pete and Peggy are never truly friends in the conventional sense afterward, I did really love the look they shared when Ted was between them.

When she told Stan, she did it for herself in a way. She did it because they were friends and she was more vulnerable in that moment. Mostly, she did it for herself. It is part of what she will live with and how it is part of her life.

[voiceover]

Hm.  While it's obvious Peggy moved away from that (for the reasons already given), I think Don's words helped snap her out of the postpartum trauma.  He gave her the tools to get back on her feet.  Then, when she was able, she turned to face her past head-on.

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, voiceover said:

Hm.  While it's obvious Peggy moved away from that (for the reasons already given), I think Don's words helped snap her out of the postpartum trauma.  He gave her the tools to get back on her feet.  Then, when she was able, she turned to face her past head-on.

I agree--exactly. Don's voice was exactly what she needed to hear in the moment. Just as it was what he needed to do in the past. And I think she would always appreciate him doing that for her (not only is he the only one who really seems to get what she wants and what fears she can't do in that moment, plus give her the tools/hope to do it, he seeks her out to do so when there was no reason for him to do it!). But with Peggy we see  healthier version--she moves forward like Don says, gives herself time, and then stops running from it. So by the end of the show it's not even surprising that she tells Stan, her best friend, part of it. (Without feeling like she has to give him all the details, of course.) She's not running from who she is, while Don seems to always feel like he has to do that.

Sometimes the characters do need to cut themselves off from their past to move forward.

[txhorns79]

Quote

While Pete and Peggy are never truly friends in the conventional sense afterward, I did really love the look they shared when Ted was between them.

I do really appreciate the respect they appear to have for one another. 

Quote

Don's voice was exactly what she needed to hear in the moment. Just as it was what he needed to do in the past. And I think she would always appreciate him doing that for her (not only is he the only one who really seems to get what she wants and what fears she can't do in that moment, plus give her the tools/hope to do it, he seeks her out to do so when there was no reason for him to do it!). But with Peggy we see  healthier version--she moves forward like Don says, gives herself time, and then stops running from it. So by the end of the show it's not even surprising that she tells Stan, her best friend, part of it. (Without feeling like she has to give him all the details, of course.) She's not running from who she is, while Don seems to always feel like he has to do that.

 

 

I agree.  Peggy needed Don's strength at that moment, and he was there for her when she had no one else who could help her move past the event.  (I really liked that they showed Peggy's mom being supportive of her daughter, i.e. the whole "I'm going, but I'm not leaving..." moment she had with Peggy in the hospital.  She's usually such a harsh character, it was nice we got to see her being a good parent.) 

[Melancholy]

On 9/22/2017 at 4:16 PM, sistermagpie said:

 There are some relationships that aren't going to weather the storm--like I get why he wants to just throw money at Megan in shame and run away from her. But he's also got a lot of people in his life who do know him--even some who know his past--and it's not as scary as it is in his imagination. 

Maybe this is an UO but I don't think Don was throwing money at Megan in shame and running away as a matter of convenience or to take the easy way out. Don's big fuck up was in marrying her. He put himself into a foolish marriage that had little chance of working but then bound himself to a young lady who felt promised and heck *was* promised to be taken care of. However, once Megan called for a divorce, the easiest way out would be for Don to hire a lawyer who'd fight Megan's lawyer over alimony and then sign the papers as quickly as possible without paying any mind to Megan's comments and dismissing them as the histrionics of a "What career? She's a consumer" spoiled girl. Don took the far harder route by giving her $1 million and hearing out all of her venom against him and then apologizing. 

[TigerLynx]

1 hour ago, Melancholy said:

Maybe this is an UO but I don't think Don was throwing money at Megan in shame and running away as a matter of convenience or to take the easy way out. Don's big fuck up was in marrying her. He put himself into a foolish marriage that had little chance of working but then bound himself to a young lady who felt promised and heck *was* promised to be taken care of. However, once Megan called for a divorce, the easiest way out would be for Don to hire a lawyer who'd fight Megan's lawyer over alimony and then sign the papers as quickly as possible without paying any mind to Megan's comments and dismissing them as the histrionics of a "What career? She's a consumer" spoiled girl. Don took the far harder route by giving her $1 million and hearing out all of her venom against him and then apologizing. 

I don't think Don gave a damn about the million dollars.  Oddly enough, while Don grew up very poor, I think being known as a success was more important to Don than the money itself.  Don liked the fact that he had money to give.  Don had a lot of faults, but he did make a success of his career even if he did it using another man's name.  I got the impression Don just wanted it over.  At that point, he had no clue what the hell Megan wanted, and had realized he probably never had really known Megan or what she wanted.  The millions dollars was like, "I couldn't make you happy so go do what you want with this, and maybe it will."

[Melancholy]

28 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

I don't think Don gave a damn about the million dollars.  Oddly enough, while Don grew up very poor, I think being known as a success was more important to Don than the money itself.  Don liked the fact that he had money to give.  Don had a lot of faults, but he did make a success of his career even if he did it using another man's name.  I got the impression Don just wanted it over.  At that point, he had no clue what the hell Megan wanted, and had realized he probably never had really known Megan or what she wanted.  The millions dollars was like, "I couldn't make you happy so go do what you want with this, and maybe it will."

I think about this West Wing quote with regards to Don and money. 

Josh: You don't care about money.

Lou: It's Scorekeeping. Quantitative evidence that I'm smarter than you. Well not, "you". People in general. 

It's not exact- I think money for Don is more of an ephemeral stand in for worth and escape routes than just a measure of pure intelligence. 

I mean, the divorce was over before Don gave the million. Don's lawyer and Megan's lawyer fought to reach undisclosed terms that Megan unhappily surrendered to. Megan and Don just had to sign the papers. That $1 million was pure gratuity to a woman he'd probably never see again in his life. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

At that point, he had no clue what the hell Megan wanted, and had realized he probably never had really known Megan or what she wanted.  The millions dollars was like, "I couldn't make you happy so go do what you want with this, and maybe it will."

I'll say that Don did hurt Megan's career by convincing her to quit her soap opera to move to California as a way to save their marriage, so I did think he owed her for that.  It's kind of hard to tell whether Megan even had an acting career left by the time we last saw her. (I'd say no, given she had fired her agent and was actively soliciting Harry, someone she appeared to loathe, for help.)  

[TigerLynx]

18 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

I think about this West Wing quote with regards to Don and money. 

Josh: You don't care about money.

Lou: It's Scorekeeping. Quantitative evidence that I'm smarter than you. Well not, "you". People in general. 

It's not exact- I think money for Don is more of an ephemeral stand in for worth and escape routes than just a measure of pure intelligence. 

I mean, the divorce was over before Don gave the million. Don's lawyer and Megan's lawyer fought to reach undisclosed terms that Megan unhappily surrendered to. Megan and Don just had to sign the papers. That $1 million was pure gratuity to a woman he'd probably never see again in his life. 

I don't mean just the marriage over.  I mean everything with Megan over.  Megan can play the "you ruined my life" card, but Don doesn't have to listen to it anymore.  Not so much as throwing money at a problem Don wants to go away, but more of a, "I can't do anything else for you so maybe this can, and maybe it will make you happy."  Don once asked Roger, "What do women want?"  To which Roger replied, "Who cares?"  And Don responds with, "Who wouldn't be happy with all of this?" Gesturing to his office, meaning success and money.  I think Don really was baffled about what Megan wanted.  With Betty, Don didn't really listen or want to listen to Betty's complaints, but with Megan, Don for quite some time did try to give Megan what she said she wanted.

 

10 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I'll say that Don did hurt Megan's career by convincing her to quit her soap opera to move to California as a way to save their marriage, so I did think he owed her for that.  It's kind of hard to tell whether Megan even had an acting career left by the time we last saw her. (I'd say no, given she had fired her agent and was actively soliciting Harry, someone she appeared to loathe, for help.)  

Don also helped Megan's career by getting her the commercial.  When it comes to acting though, success (depending on how you define it) is very elusive.  Most people in the entertainment business don't become movie or TV stars.  They are lucky if they get any kind of acting job.  Having inside contacts doesn't guarantee anything either.  For every Jane Fonda, there are a dozen more Patrick Waynes.

[txhorns79]

Quote

Don also helped Megan's career by getting her the commercial.  When it comes to acting though, success (depending on how you define it) is very elusive.  Most people in the entertainment business don't become movie or TV stars.  They are lucky if they get any kind of acting job.  Having inside contacts doesn't guarantee anything either.  For every Jane Fonda, there are a dozen more Patrick Waynes.

Oh I totally agree.  I just thought since his actions led her to give up a steady, paid acting gig, he did owe her for that. 

[Melancholy]

29 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I'll say that Don did hurt Megan's career by convincing her to quit her soap opera to move to California as a way to save their marriage, so I did think he owed her for that.  It's kind of hard to tell whether Megan even had an acting career left by the time we last saw her. (I'd say no, given she had fired her agent and was actively soliciting Harry, someone she appeared to loathe, for help.)  

I don't really think Don owed her for that because:

Megan: There have been all of these opportunities in Hollywood but I haven't considered it because I thought it would make you go crazy. 

I also find it impossible to believe that Megan couldn't have asked for her soap job back within 2 days of quitting. Megan wanted to go to Hollywood to pursue acting on the bigger stage because she was getting unhappy at her soap. I think I'd agree that Don owed Megan money (dunno about $1 million) if there was some line about her trying to ask for her soap job back. 

I would agree that Don mainly felt he owed Megan for this. I agree with Megan that Don was enjoying the part where their lawyers were squabbling over money and Megan was asking for her wifely allowance because it was still connection and he was lonely. But after it was done, Don was troubled that Megan wasn't being sufficiently taken care of and agreed to the settlement with such an angry, resigned affect. Then, he particularly felt motivated to do something about it with actual sacrifice after Harry made it clear that Megan didn't have a career anymore and was a target for ridicule because she left her soap and he felt guilty about that. 

Edited September 25, 2017 by Melancholy

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, TigerLynx said:

I don't think Don gave a damn about the million dollars.  Oddly enough, while Don grew up very poor, I think being known as a success was more important to Don than the money itself.  Don liked the fact that he had money to give.  Don had a lot of faults, but he did make a success of his career even if he did it using another man's name.  I got the impression Don just wanted it over.  At that point, he had no clue what the hell Megan wanted, and had realized he probably never had really known Megan or what she wanted.  The millions dollars was like, "I couldn't make you happy so go do what you want with this, and maybe it will."

 

1 hour ago, Melancholy said:

I think about this West Wing quote with regards to Don and money. 

Josh: You don't care about money.

Lou: It's Scorekeeping. Quantitative evidence that I'm smarter than you. Well not, "you". People in general. 

It's not exact- I think money for Don is more of an ephemeral stand in for worth and escape routes than just a measure of pure intelligence. 

I mean, the divorce was over before Don gave the million. Don's lawyer and Megan's lawyer fought to reach undisclosed terms that Megan unhappily surrendered to. Megan and Don just had to sign the papers. That $1 million was pure gratuity to a woman he'd probably never see again in his life. 

It is interesting that people bring up Don's relationship with money.  Betty brought up that she realized Don grew up poor because he had no understanding of money.  It seems pretty common for wealthy men on t.v. to always be very generous with money, partcularly when it comes to the women in their life.

I knew someone who shacked up with a much older man, because he was willing to pay her tuition and rent.  It was not a situation I agreed with, but they were both consenting adults.  I guess you could say she had a sugar daddy.  Anyway, she had to write down everything she bought in a ledger for him to tally at the end of the week, even if it was as minor as a pack of gum.

Don had a ton of faults but being miserly is not one of them.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Melancholy said:

I don't really think Don owed her for that because:

 

Me neither. Acting is a precarious business and Megan seemed perfectly happy to go to California when she thought she'd continue to have success and anyway her agent was suggesting it too. It would be frankly unhealthy for her to keep imagining that if only she'd stayed on the soap she would have been a great success so it's all Don's fault. How many big successes came off of 60s soaps? 

That said, regarding Don throwing money at Megan I was more just coming up with a shorthand to say that Megan was *not* a relationship that he stuck with. He'd probably be fine never seeing her again. But there were other people he'd felt humiliated or exposed in front of with whom he still had a relationship--Roger, Betty, Sally, Peggy, Pete, Stephanie all come to mind. I don't see Don and Megan continuing to stay in touch or having a deep friendship in the future, even if Megan stops blaming him for her life. The funny thing is that Don will be far more able to walk away from Megan since she's the one who's going to continue being supported by him for maybe the rest of her life thanks to this settlement. Which I think does more than make up for him giving her bad advice about quitting her soap opera after he got her a commercial job and financed her entire career.

[TigerLynx]

25 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Me neither. Acting is a precarious business and Megan seemed perfectly happy to go to California when she thought she'd continue to have success and anyway her agent was suggesting it too. It would be frankly unhealthy for her to keep imagining that if only she'd stayed on the soap she would have been a great success so it's all Don's fault. How many big successes came off of 60s soaps? 

That said, regarding Don throwing money at Megan I was more just coming up with a shorthand to say that Megan was *not* a relationship that he stuck with. He'd probably be fine never seeing her again. But there were other people he'd felt humiliated or exposed in front of with whom he still had a relationship--Roger, Betty, Sally, Peggy, Pete, Stephanie all come to mind. I don't see Don and Megan continuing to stay in touch or having a deep friendship in the future, even if Megan stops blaming him for her life. The funny thing is that Don will be far more able to walk away from Megan since she's the one who's going to continue being supported by him for maybe the rest of her life thanks to this settlement. Which I think does more than make up for him giving her bad advice about quitting her soap opera after he got her a commercial job and financed her entire career.

I'm not sure there was anything Don could ever have done to make his marriage to Megan work, or vice versa.  Even if Don hadn't started cheating on Megan, I still think they would have ended up in the same place with Megan's career in California not going anywhere, Don in New York trying to salvage his career, and the Megan flip flop of, "You don't owe me anything Don.  Thanks for ruining my life Don."  It's ironic that what Betty wanted was for Don to stop cheating on her and allow her to be a part of his life (including his work), and not just the wife he had stashed in the suburbs.  However, with Megan, Don wanted her to be part of his work, and claimed he would never cheat on Megan like he did Betty, and then Megan ruins Don's fantasy by not wanting to do advertising anymore and returns to acting.

[txhorns79]

Quote

Me neither. Acting is a precarious business and Megan seemed perfectly happy to go to California when she thought she'd continue to have success and anyway her agent was suggesting it too. It would be frankly unhealthy for her to keep imagining that if only she'd stayed on the soap she would have been a great success so it's all Don's fault. How many big successes came off of 60s soaps? 

I don't think it was that Megan thought she'd be a great success, more like "I gave up my job for you, and I got repaid with lies, no job and a failed marriage." 

[sistermagpie]

24 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I don't think it was that Megan thought she'd be a great success, more like "I gave up my job for you, and I got repaid with lies, no job and a failed marriage." 

At first I think that was definitely her thought--and that part's completely reasonable. Even if she'd had no job in New York at all she'd have good reason to be angry when she found out she moved her life across the country for no reason while her husband was lying about it.

I just think it would be wrong of her to start imagining herself as being on the road to some great success until Don forced her to move to LA and that's where her life went wrong. I could see her going down that road by the end there, even though a lot of the stuff we get about her from LA seem to be showing Megan not making good choices on her own. (Ironically in an ep I just rewatched she says to Don "I know what you're like when you're on your own" when she's accusing him of cheating, but really it's *Megan* who self-destructs when she's on her own enough that her agent calls Don for help.)

[Melancholy]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

That said, regarding Don throwing money at Megan I was more just coming up with a shorthand to say that Megan was *not* a relationship that he stuck with. He'd probably be fine never seeing her again. But there were other people he'd felt humiliated or exposed in front of with whom he still had a relationship--Roger, Betty, Sally, Peggy, Pete, Stephanie all come to mind. I don't see Don and Megan continuing to stay in touch or having a deep friendship in the future, even if Megan stops blaming him for her life. The funny thing is that Don will be far more able to walk away from Megan since she's the one who's going to continue being supported by him for maybe the rest of her life thanks to this settlement. Which I think does more than make up for him giving her bad advice about quitting her soap opera after he got her a commercial job and financed her entire career.

I agree that Don and Megan probably won't see each other. I don't see Megan ever having post-marriage sex or going to the funeral of someone important in Don's life ala Jane. Jane/Roger, despite its problems and Roger's cruelty to Jane, had a bond that Jane truly loved Roger for himself. Megan never really loved Don. 

I also agree that Don can forget about Megan more easily than vice a versa because Megan will be supported by Don's money for the rest of her life. Even if she trains herself to not think about him as she pays for things, people will definitely ask or try to figure out how she came by her money and that opens the door to some embarrassment. Although, Megan had been naively obtuse about some of the judgements people make like when she was shocked that her actor friend would note that Megan isn't well placed to judge paying jobs or how I don't think she registers her agent's surprise that Don is a sugar daddy who is actually very handsome. Small price to pay for getting enough money to be taken care of for the rest of her life but of course, Megan would have preferred to wind up a millionaire from being a movie star. 

[voiceover]

"Favors"! how I love this scene: a drunken Pete & Peggy at the restaurant, post-Ocean Spray, giggling and being vulnerable & mutually supportive and honest.

They really did evolve into one of my favorite TV relationships.

Edited September 25, 2017 by voiceover

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, voiceover said:

They really did evolve into one of my favorite TV relationships.

Yeah, I love it was always there, making even little moments between them crackle even when nothing's happened in it for a long time. It's kind of fitting he gives her that cactus. It's a stubby, prickly little plant that isn't particularly good-looking, but it'll always be there and doesn't require any care or attention from her. I honestly think that if either of them ever seriously needed the other, they'd be there in a second without much drama.

[voiceover]

I like Kevin Rahm, but Ted had to grow on me.  Then one day he said, "I don't want his juice.  I want my juice!"  And I was hearing someone describe my professional existence.  

How could I resist?