Past Seasons Talk: Before We Traded a Cop for an Assassin, a Psycho Hacker and The Machine's Evil Twin

[tessaray]

 

It was FINCH who helped Reese out; who saved him; gave him a purpose, something Reese told not only Finch, but the audience.

 

I was thinking of a flashback scene where John was on a bus or something and she tried to help him?  I binge watched most of the first two seasons so it all is kind of a blur in spots.  But yes, I do see what you mean.  I don't think she saved him either.

 

But he quite obviously admired her and it had a hint (hint!) of something extra.  I thought the writing subtly laid kind of a chaste love from afar thing for Reese and Carter.  Like when he would talk about her to Fusco - you could tell if he disrespected her at all, he would pay. ;-)  But at the same time you didn't get the impression he would ever ask her out or anything.  Still, if it hadn't been for him going off the rails when she died, I could take it either way.  I wasn't a shipper or anything.      

[IndependentMind]

This upcoming season will be different because for years, Finch has been deflecting and trying to ignore the consequences of his creation and actions. And with Samaritan and with Reese, Root and Shaw telling him you have got to fight back. We have to do something, JN has discussed that that is something Finch will grapple with throughout season 4. 

 

Why did Carter die? If Harold had let Root communicate with the Machine, could she have been saved? I think so. Root has been warning him about Samaritan and he continued to ignore it and look where they are now.The only time he let Root talk to the Machine was when John;s life was in jeopardy. If Root had not done what she had done, hide their identities from Samaritan they would all be dead. She said this in "Root Path". The moment Samaritan comes online, they are the first four to get killed. and still, Harold didn't do anything.

 

Michael Emerson is an excellent actor and I cannot wait to see what the writers have in store for him as the conflicted Harold Finch. And I love that there seems to bea lot of Root/Finch scenes. 

 

I have said this before, if you cannot accept the changes the show has made, you will not appreciate what the show is today. You either go with the slow and enjoy the show, or just stop watching it because complaining about it isn't going to change anything. 

Edited September 13, 2014 by IndependentMind

[ABay]

You either go with the slow and enjoy the show, or just stop watching it because complaining about it isn't going to change anything.

I don't think you can dictate others' responses. Well. You can dictate, but unless you're the Mod and saying no one is allowed to voice dislike of the show, or have the ability to prevent people from watching the show and posting, how exactly will you impose your will on others?

Edited September 13, 2014 by ABay

[FurryFury]

I can understand people who are upset with the changes, but it still kinda weirds me out, because the show used to be so formulaic and cliched. There are tons of crime dramas on TV, and this one wasn't really any different or better in any way. It was basically comfort food, imo. I do watch some shows like that and even enjoy them, but I would probably be ecstatic if they did such a drastic turn upwards in quality as PoI did. It became something unique, dealing with deep themes and having actual ideas. I'm only on ep 12 and it already feels, like, 10 times fresher.

[FormerMod-a1]

While the show may have been formulaic, I never found it cliche and many of the first season eps I thought did deal with deep themes with actual ideas.  Reese and Dr Tillman from "Cura Te Ipsum", for example.  It was so well done and gave us a lot of insight into Reese, and on a very thought provoking subject matter.  I miss that from the first season.  And all the while, even though they may have been labeled as "case of the week", they were laying a lot of info about the larger universe and the arcs that so many are loving now.  The introduction of Elias, the introduction of Root... The flashbacks alone tell a whole story, and a very important one to the present A story line of the Machine.  They were so good at having all these layers in the "simple" COW stories that I thought it stood head and shoulders above anything else.  I still think it's one of the best shows, and I like the AI aspect of it.  But I also thought that was always there, so moving away from Reese and Finch so much has been a big disappointment for me.  Plus they already had a lot of the Machine arc w/o needing to bring in Shaw and pushing Root to the forefront - we had Maam, Decima, Snow, Stanton, etc.  Many of which were introduced in the first season (like I said, there is way more to the first seasons than COW).  I don't hate Root and Shaw, I just think they are overused.  

 

I am glad the changes have brought in new viewers.  Since I do love the show, I am always happy when more people like and watch.  I just personally don't think it has improved.  And if you don't agree, that's fine, But keep in mind, we all need to respect the differences of opinion.

[ABay]

Although I would've been just fine with more Finch, Reese, and Bear in the forefront and everything else in the background, I understand why the show had to change. I'm OK with Shaw and I will eventually, I hope, overcome my dislike of Amy Acker and get to like, or at least tolerate Root, because I think her scenes with Harold are the key ones of the series now. Carter wasn't essential to my enjoyment, but I do think it's a pity they killed her off after they made her interesting instead of in season 1 when the character brought the narrative to a screeching halt every time she was on screen.

 

I certainly intend to stay until the end because of Michael Emerson and the underlying themes of the series. I expect that I will love some episodes and bits of episodes and really hate others, and get very tired of squeeing and shipping. Like any other show I watch.

[stealinghome]

Also, I suspect that how one feels about the show's evolution probably correlates (though is not identical to) how one feels about procedurals vs. serialized shows in general. I freely admit that I am bored shitless by 99% of procedurals and always gravitate toward more serialized shows, so of course I'm going to find the later seasons of PoI to be much better. (That I'm a sci-fi/fantasy nerd also helps in this respect.) For those who prefer procedurals to serialized shows, I can understand why the earlier seasons would be preferable.

Edited September 13, 2014 by stealinghome

[immortalfrieza]

I don't know about everybody else, but my problem isn't procedural vs. serialized, I've always liked both, especially shows that flip back and forth between them. No, my problem is I liked the basic premise, to wit: "The heroes are given a vague indication something horrible is going to happen and who's involved and must stop it, but they don't know if they're the one it's going to happen to or the one doing it" and I hate how they've pretty much thrown that premise out the window at this point. Such a premise has infinite potential for plots subverting the expectations of the audience or playing into them without the audience ever being able to know which until it happens, and it's a premise that could easily be both procedural and serialized at the same time. However, at some point the writers got into a rut or something and made it blatantly obvious what's going on within the first 10 minutes of the episode and I can count the number of times the POI has been the perpetrator instead of the victim on one hand and probably still have fingers left over.

 

In short, it's the squandered potential that I have a problem with. The fact that the writers originally made such good use of that potential for the first couple seasons or so only makes this seem much worse.

Edited September 14, 2014 by immortalfrieza

[FurryFury]

No, my problem is I liked the basic premise, to wit: "The heroes are given a vague indication something horrible is going to happen and who's involved and must stop it, but they don't know if they're the one it's going to happen to or the one doing it" and I hate how they've pretty much thrown that premise out the window at this point.

 

Personally, I feel this premise has been done already, and probably not once. There's just nothing original about it, essentially. But then, I feel the same about generic murder of the week detective shows, and still watch them if I really like the characters and they have an arc/arcs. Still, what PoI has become is something much grander.

 

Such a premise has infinite potential for plots subverting the expectations of the audience or playing into them without the audience ever being able to know which until it happens

 

But I haven't seen this potential realized. There are a few stand alone episodes from the earlier seasons I generally liked, but that's it, just liked. They did not blow me out of the water like some of s3, or s2 finale.

 

I expect that I will love some episodes and bits of episodes and really hate others, and get very tired of squeeing and shipping.

 

Is there really so much shipping going on? I'd never think so judging by the show itself. Of course, shippers will always ship, but I simply don't see much incentive to do so on PoI. I do root for Finch/Grace a bit, because this is Carrie Preston and I want him to be happy, and I enjoyed Reese/Zoe interaction (I guess Paige Turco won't appear anymore because of The 100...), but shipping anyone never even occurred to me.

[stealinghome]

Personally, I feel this premise has been done already, and probably not once. There's just nothing original about it, essentially. But then, I feel the same about generic murder of the week detective shows, and still watch them if I really like the characters and they have an arc/arcs. Still, what PoI has become is something much grander.

I have to agree with this. To me, PoI's initial set-up was really no different than any of the Law and Order/CSI/NCIS shows, you know? Only instead of starting with a dead body, you start with a live; but past that, the idea that anyone can be involved in any way (and also having to dig into the victim's own past) seems very cookie-cutter to me. Maybe I'm just not imaginative enough and the series didn't do enough with the setup, but I find that the most innovative aspect of it was always The Machine and its powers/limitations.

 

but shipping anyone never even occurred to me.

I don't think PoI has a hugely vocal shipper fandom on the whole, generally speaking. I think Carter/Reese have/had a decent-sized fanbase but, well....

 

I am, however, interested to see if your thoughts on this matter evolve!

[Bort]

Is there really so much shipping going on? I'd never think so judging by the show itself. Of course, shippers will always ship, but I simply don't see much incentive to do so on PoI. I do root for Finch/Grace a bit, because this is Carrie Preston and I want him to be happy, and I enjoyed Reese/Zoe interaction (I guess Paige Turco won't appear anymore because of The 100...), but shipping anyone never even occurred to me.

Yeah, there's some shipping but until you make more progress through season 3, it won't be that obvious to you yet. Short answer: you'll see.

[IndependentMind]

On any show there will always be shippers. People want to see what they want to see. There is a bunch of Richer and also Careese. After Carter was killed a lot of them were hurt and vocal and angry. There are aslo Shoot ahippers.

Season 4, we will see Finch and Root a lot because he is the creator of the Machine and the Machine talks directly to Root.

Root and Finch scenes are always so fascinating to me. And Amy is at her best with her scenes with ME.

There was and still a lot of anger towards Shahi/Shaw even before Carter was killed off. Her mere presence and lack thereof of Carter and Fusco towards season 2 irritated a bunch of fans. And it didn't help when Nina Tassler and JN said that "Carter was killed off to make way for Shaw's Catwoman." It doesnt have that when Sarah is asked to describe, she used "Catwoman".

[immortalfrieza]

Personally, I feel this premise has been done already, and probably not once. There's just nothing original about it, essentially. But then, I feel the same about generic murder of the week detective shows, and still watch them if I really like the characters and they have an arc/arcs. Still, what PoI has become is something much grander.

Well, I have never seen anything even remotely like this before, and I watch detective/murder shows all the time. Sure, occasionally there's an episode in any given detective/murder show where they're trying to prevent a murder from happening before it does, but it's not the main premise.

 

 

But I haven't seen this potential realized. There are a few stand alone episodes from the earlier seasons I generally liked, but that's it, just liked. They did not blow me out of the water like some of s3, or s2 finale.

I disagree. I thought POI realized this potential very effectively at first, constantly keeping me guessing quite often through the first season or so, those episodes blew me away far more than the later ones (though I admit they were still good) except for maybe ones like Carter's death. However, once they started creating arcs for the series it started becoming more and more predictable, to the point I'm likely correctly guessing the plot of any given episode within ten minutes at the most. It's the writers started putting in full on arcs is when they started half-assing everything having to do with the original premise if not dropping it entirely to focus on them. As a result I think the first season and some of season 2 was the better part of the show so far.

[FurryFury]

I disagree. I thought POI realized this potential very effectively at first, constantly keeping me guessing quite often through the first season or so, those episodes blew me away far more than the later ones

 

I dunno, I guessed almost every twist until I stopped caring (which, admittedly, happed pretty soon into s1). But I usually guess the perp in most crime of the week, too. One of the reasons I'm not big on the genre.

 

However, once they started creating arcs for the series it started becoming more and more predictable

 

Really? I don't think so. Or maybe I don't because I'm invested. I don't really care if Root will do something predictable or not, I'm glued to the screen during her scenes anyway.

 

It's the writers started putting in full on arcs is when they started half-assing everything having to do with the original premise if not dropping it entirely to focus on them.

 

I prefer to think of it as writers realizing they've stumbled upon some better ideas and that the premise was rather limited in scope.

 

Well, I have never seen anything even remotely like this before, and I watch detective/murder shows all the time.

 

Stealinghome said, and I 100% agree, that in essence, it's not different from your classic murder investigation. They still need to solve a mystery, only the victim is usually alive. There are some twists here and there, but they often come from a mile away.

[ABay]

I don't know about everybody else, but my problem isn't procedural vs. serialized, I've always liked both, especially shows that flip back and forth between them.

Me, too. I don't believe one format is inherently superior to the other, and I don't think anything is truly original--everything builds on something that came before--what matters is what the storyteller adds or twists, the mix of convention + invention.

 

What brought me to the series was Michael Emerson and the premise. For me, the beating heart of the show was Finch & Reese redeeming each other, or the Machine redeeming them both through each other...basically, Finch & Reese's evolving relationship. The medium for delivering that was the mix of POIs of the week, the introduction of the other characters, and setting the groundwork for the current long-term arc. But those were never the heart of the show, imo. I'm not sure if Finch & Root is going to be as compelling to me as Finch & Reese.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I haven't much to add, since aquarian1 and ABay voiced my feelings much better than I could; with the exception, that for me, it was Jim Caviezel that brought me in; I can't stand Acker; have never been able to stand her or Shahi, and I don't think had they cast anyone else, that it would change my mind.  Plus, yeah, sure, the first season had a procedural element to it, with the difference that Reese and Finch are NOT cops. It had the added element of the Machine.

 

And I very much resent the story they are now telling me that the Machine "likes" Root, that psychotic, sociopathic murderer, more than its Daddy, Finch.  The reason why Finch distanced himself from it, was because in the beginning (and I can't remember if it was after Nathan's death or before), the Machine was doing things to save Finch and not others. He had to talk to it, to try and explain that that was not its purpose; to selfishly, if you will, save and look out for Finch only.

 

And as for Root? Why she's the most specialistist snowflake to ever special! Being able to shoot and kill her targets without looking at them, avoid bullets/getting shot herself by curving her body this way and that way, and when something does happen to her, like Madame destroying her ear drum (something at which I rejoiced and cheered), of course she would find a way to make that work for her, because she just can't suffer any consequences, like Reese and Finch have. So yeah, I want her killed, dead, and off my screen.

 

I said it before, that this show, Reese, was, for me, Batman, without the cape and cowl, and I loved it. Reese didn't always win; he gets the shit beat out of him; he doesn't walk away without his actions having consequences. i.e. saving Elias, not realizing he was actually the perp, and what a chain reaction letting him go caused.

 

For me, "4C" was the BEST episode of last season, because it was Season 1 Reese, badass Reese, with the sarcastic humor and the ending was perfection--a full circle return to the pilot.

 

And like I posted upthread, or maybe it was in the Unpopular Thread, for those that are liking/loving the direction the show is going in, I'm happy for you; seriously; not being sarcastic; but for me? I'm in it to get my dose of Reese and Finch and Reese. Once Reese is gone, than so am I.  There was so much more Nolan and Plageman could have done with the core 4 plus Bear.

 

But, we don't always get what we want.

Edited September 14, 2014 by GHScorpiosRule

[FurryFury]

For me, "4C" was the BEST episode of last season, because it was Season 1 Reese, badass Reese, with the sarcastic humor and the ending was perfection--a full circle return to the pilot.

 

Funny, I'm watching it right now, and I've found it the worst of the season so far. So cliched, and I'm really disappointed in Reese's reaction to Carter's death. Very predictable and doesn't really tell me anything new about him. I'm actually mad at him for forgetting how much Finch had done for him. He was the catalyst for his new life, not Carter.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I'm going to just remove myself from further discussion on this and leave it at we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[stealinghome]

Re: being disappointed in Reese walking away, I understand why he did it, but I shared the disappointment in his character. I think I see what the writers were going for, for Reese there, but the execution didn't quite do it for me. (Spoilers for the end of S3 follow--it's nothing spoilery for S4, but spoiler-tagging out of courtesy to FurryFury.)

That's actually why I'm really glad the deleted scene on the S3 DVD/Blu-Ray, of Finch going back to his father's house once he walked away from Reese and Shaw at the end of 'Death Benefit,' was deleted. It felt massively cowardly on Finch's part, to me, but more than that, having both Finch and Reese walk away to that extent during the same season? That would've been just too much.

 

And I very much resent the story they are now telling me that the Machine "likes" Root, that psychotic, sociopathic murderer, more than its Daddy, Finch.

I like Root more than I like Finch, but I don't think that's what the show is saying at all. The Machine's efforts to protect Finch at all costs plus the way it "asked" Finch for help with the congressman in 'Death Benefit,' set against the way it's slowly schooling Root into being a better human being, confirms to me that while it sees a value in Root (operational if nothing else), and potential in most humanist sense of the term, it still looks to Finch for guidance and support and affection/love and a model (I mean, isn't the Machine trying to reform Root just as Finch tries to reform Root?)--just like a child looks to a beloved parent.

 

If anything, it's Finch who has been pulling away from the Machine for the last season-plus, not vice versa.

Edited September 14, 2014 by stealinghome

[FurryFury]

I think the Machine straight-on doesn't trust Finch, and she/it has a good reason for it, too. I mean, he had set it to wipe its memory every single day, wrote a virus that would almost kill it and routinely showed he doesn't consider it a character in its own right.

 

I mean, isn't the Machine trying to reform Root just as Finch tries to reform Root?

 

Yes, I noticed it as well! I also think that Machine's guidance of Root is as much dictated by the narrative needs as by character development. I mean, the writers have obviously realized they love Root and want to add her to the cast, and the Machine was her reason for existing, basically. I don't mind it, because it adds a new dimension to all of the participants, with Root softening her edges to enable the cooperation with the team, the Machine displaying Finch's influence when it comes to morality, and Finch himself revealing the creator part of his personality with all the responsibility and struggle it entails.

Edited September 14, 2014 by FurryFury

[stealinghome]

FurryFury, you're going to find the end of S3 so fascinating, is all I can say. I'm excited for you to watch it.

 

Someone somewhere coined the term "Dadmin" to refer to how the Machine sees Finch, and I think that's genius. It just gets at all the conflicts in the Machine and Finch's relationship, I think--some so very mechanical, and some so very very human at the end of the day.

[GodsBeloved]

I did see Carter's death coming a mile away though

So did I. I strongly suspected Carter was a goner when they gave Shaw her own episode. Then they "gave Carter her own story" which translated into her being separated from the focus of the show. Then TPH didn't attend that panel in SD I think. Then they claimed TPH missed another panel because she was filming ... yet there was a tweet/instrgram with her having just gotten her nails done just prior to the panel starting.

[GodsBeloved]

I was thinking of a flashback scene where John was on a bus or something and she tried to help him?  I binge watched most of the first two seasons so it all is kind of a blur in spots.  But yes, I do see what you mean.  I don't think she saved him either.

 

But he quite obviously admired her and it had a hint (hint!) of something extra.  I thought the writing subtly laid kind of a chaste love from afar thing for Reese and Carter.  Like when he would talk about her to Fusco - you could tell if he disrespected her at all, he would pay. ;-)  But at the same time you didn't get the impression he would ever ask her out or anything.  Still, if it hadn't been for him going off the rails when she died, I could take it either way.  I wasn't a shipper or anything.      

That bus scene was what lead Reese to being taken to the precinct and crossing paths with Carter.

 

Also, Reese never said Carter saved him. He said she changed his mind. In context, it seems Reese was saying Carter changed his mind about killing himself. Sure that can be seen as Carter saving him but what I never got was that Reese was giving Carter credit for what he previously gave Finch credit for.

 

For me it was quite clear that Reese gave Finch credit for giving him something meaningful to do (purpose) which saved him from continuing his slide downward. He gave Carter, whom he met first, credit for changing his mind about committing suicide.

Edited September 15, 2014 by GodsBeloved

[FurryFury]

I have to amend my previous statement, 4C is definitely not the worst episode in the season, this honor belongs entirely to 3x15 "Last Call". Ugh, it was really painful. Atrocious story, bad script (at one point Fusco, without any incentive, started to tell his conclusions about the case aloud while being alone and not on the phone with anyone... Seriously, would a trained detective do this?!) Zero sense of urgency or danger - I'm not sure why any writers on network TV even bother with putting children into danger, it's clear they won't have the guts to kill them off. No interesting interactions between the mains and a boring PoI, too. I actually fell asleep during this episode yesterday and had to force myself to sit through it in case it got better. It did introduced a potentially recurring villain, I suppose... one I have no interest in.

 

The previous stand-alone, "Provenance" was much better, and even kinda fun. It focused on Shaw, but not too much and without any super-angsty staff, the PoI (I called her "Asian Rachel Bilson", personally) was spunky and likable, and while everything was predictable there was enough teamwork to be watchable. 

Edited September 15, 2014 by FurryFury

[GodsBeloved]

While the show may have been formulaic, I never found it cliche and many of the first season eps I thought did deal with deep themes with actual ideas.  Reese and Dr Tillman from "Cura Te Ipsum", for example.  It was so well done and gave us a lot of insight into Reese, and on a very thought provoking subject matter.  I miss that from the first season. 

JCs performace at the beach house is one of the best performances if not the best performance to ever be had on PoI. Adam Rothenberg was outstanding as well and made the scene itself (and the episode) one of the best.

Edited September 15, 2014 by GodsBeloved

[stealinghome]

Oh yeah, "Last Call" is really rather bad. It's just...boring. There's nothing interesting or engaging about it. Which is too bad, because I really liked the idea of Finch going undercover at the 911 center, but the execution was just cringeworthy.

 

Which is funny, because the writer for "Last Call" also wrote "Mors Praematura," which is one of the season's most fun episodes, and co-wrote "Beta," which I like quite a bit. So...bad day at the office for him, I guess?

[FurryFury]

I think "Mors Praematura" only worked because of the serial element (which might be written/outlined by the showrunner, although I don't know how involved he is). The stand-alone story wasn't really anything special, although much better than "Last Call".

 

"R.A.M" was pretty great! Although I did miss Root and Shaw a bit (but both of their small scenes were awesome). But we got Kara Stanton! I missed her so much, she was a very interesting character. Also, I really liked Finch's proto-Reese, Dillinger. I fully admit I have a type - hot snarky roguish dudes. Of course, it was obvious he's dead meat from the first minutes of the episode... But even after he got shot, I kept hoping... until Shaw finished him off and Finch buried him. Oh well :(

 

Anyway, I'm really glad the show continues to explore the past without the new reveals feeling like explicit retcons. It all makes sense. I wasn't a big fan of "Finch was the creator of the virus" back in s2, so it's nice to see it explained.

Edited September 15, 2014 by FurryFury

[immortalfrieza]

One thing I don't buy the writers trying to do the last season or so is their rather blatant attempts to do a reforming arc with Root. The woman is such a completely unrepentant psychopath that she lacks any redeeming aspects whatsoever for such an arc to jump off from. She treats people like tools at best and annoyances to be removed at worst with no hesitation to do either, in fact she does both with an almost sadistic glee. She clearly lacks any empathy for any being but The Machine itself. Root's tendency to refer to human beings as "bad code" and believing that Finch "broke" The Machine by making it care for people strongly shows this. She even complains constantly about The Machine refusing to let her kill people even though she otherwise treats The Machine like a god with an almost religious zealotry. I can't reasonably see even the object of her obsession The Machine managing to redeem her.

 

Shaw also shows sociopath tendencies, but even she at her most cold shows more care for the people around her than Root, and when Shaw kills or wants to, she does it out of desire for practicality rather than malice like Root does.

 

As a matter of fact, all of last season ever since Samaritan came into the picture and Decima got involved with it I kept expecting Root to jump ship to Samaritan's side the entire time, and I probably will keep expecting it for as long as Samaritan remains intact simply because it fits her much better to choose that side.

Edited September 16, 2014 by immortalfrieza

[FurryFury]

"Root path". Wow. A terrific episode, even better than the previous one. I expected to like it, with it being a Root-centric and all, but I didn't expect how awesome and deep it would be. I mean, Root's monologue to Harold about how cold and chaotic the universe can be and the absence of any plan was probably one of the most compelling scenes of the whole show and spoke to me on a fundamental level. It both told me a lot about her own character and made me empathize with her on a deeper level, because, while I've loved Root basically since the moment she was revealed to be a villain back in s1 finale, I've never truly understood the real basis of her motivation, and now it's clear. Also, yes, I do agree with her to a certain point. I'm more of an existentialist, though. Life is crap, but we're the one to change it.

 

"How badly do you need to break it to make it care about people so much?" Is she talking about the machine or herself? Or both? I was waiting for the start of Root's emotional arc since the s3 premiere, and it's finally here. I'm thrilled and along for the ride 100%. To tell the truth, I find the idea of a mentally disturbed sociopathic hacker/assassin learning empathy more interesting than a former assassin with a heart learning to be hero. Although I don't think she's really sociopathic (in the mental disorder way). From her backstory, it would make sense to conclude her friend's death affected her greatly and led to her current obsessive personality and disregard for the feelings of other. I appreciate it that we aren't beaten over the head with that, however, and I appreciate that the heroes still don't really trust her and she doesn't work with them on a constant basis. She's not redeemed, or anything close to that... But she still has some emotions of her own.

 

Also, I'll never ever believe she could switch sides to Samaritan. It would make zero sense. Root wanted one thing ever since her first appearance, and she got it. She's the agent of God, in her mind. Why would she discard all of this for something alien and controlled by people who want to kill her?

 

And it was nice seeing Colin Donnel of Arrow fame, even if only for a few minutes. And Root and Finch were golden, as usual. I also have to single out Amy Acker's performance, absolutely outstanding.

Edited September 16, 2014 by FurryFury

[immortalfrieza]

Also, I'll never ever believe she could switch sides to Samaritan. It would make zero sense. Root wanted one thing ever since her first appearance, and she got it. She's the agent of God, in her mind. Why would she discard all of this for something alien and controlled by people who want to kill her?

I would think it would make far more sense than Root sticking with The Machine. She's had a lifelong obsession with computers that eventually evolves into an obsession with The Machine, but she's also always had a disinterest in other human beings with one exception whose murder drives her into an outright dismissive contempt of humanity in general and she makes no attempt to hide this. That obsession can be all to easily transferred over to Samaritan instead.  Decima isn't really interested in killing Root anyway, just that she keeps getting in their way and they retaliate rather than they make any attempt to actually kill her, in fact they've tried to recruit her more than once.

 

Root views Samaritan as much as a God as she does The Machine, but the difference is that out of the two Decima and thus Samaritan's view on humanity and the world fit her own much more than The Machine's does, I'd say almost a mirror image in fact while The Machine's is a polar opposite and Root knows this. Root still sticking with The Machine at this point only shows just how hard it is to break her obsession with something, not that she couldn't or wouldn't.

Edited September 16, 2014 by immortalfrieza

[stealinghome]

Decima isn't really interested in killing Root anyway, just that she keeps getting in their way and they retaliate rather than they make any attempt to actually kill her, in fact they've tried to recruit her more than once.

Yes, but Shaw and Reese aren't really on Decima's hit list, either--only Harold is. That doesn't mean Shaw or Reese would be so stupid as to ally themselves with an entity (Samaritan/Decima) who would kill them without a second thought if need be. At this point, even if she wanted to, I don't think Root could switch sides. After continuing to side with The Machine after Samaritan went online (and he has to know that Root was involved with hiding Team Machine), Greer wouldn't trust her farther than he could throw Reese. That said, I have toyed with the idea of whether Team Machine will try to send Root "undercover" at Decima by pretending she's switched sides...but I just think I'd feel like Greer lost 75% of his IQ between seasons if he swallowed that ruse for one minute. And I don't want the villains on this show dumbed down; how smart they are (Elias!) is one of the best things about them.

 

The question of Root being for The Machine versus Samaritan is interesting. Definitely Root as initially introduced would have opted for Samaritan if given a choice, or, if both systems had been up and running, would have gone to whichever system reached out first. However, now? I do think Harold and The Machine have rubbed off on her too much for her to be able to just blithely execute people in the streets for "crimes" like watching too much pornography. The Root we saw in 'Root Path' especially just wouldn't be able to, imo. The Machine and Harold have "broken" her too much.

 

Also, there's a lot to be said for history. The Machine has invested in Root; The Machine cares for Root on some level; they obviously have a good relationship. That kind of thing matters--especially to someone like Root, who, for better or worse, has a really amazing capacity for loyalty, twisted though it may be (The Machine, her friend Hanna).

 

Oh, and FurryFury, I share your love for 'Root Path.' That scene between Root and Harold still gives me chills every time I watch it. Acker and Emerson both acted the hell out of the entire episode, but particularly that scene.

 

She's not redeemed, or anything close to that... But she still has some emotions of her own.

This. Maybe it's because I'm still somehow watching The Regina Fanfiction Show--I mean, Once Upon a Time--but I've been pretty pleased with how PoI's handled Root's arc so far. They're not pretending she's redeemed, or anything close to it--in fact, I'd say she needs to complete her "become a better person" arc before she could even get started on a real "redemption" arc, which I doubt is forthcoming--and the writers have pretty pointedly kept her relationships with the heroes rather antagonistic. Shaw has more tolerance for Root these days (ahem), but if John and Harold didn't need Root, I have no doubt they'd throw her back in the cage the moment she did something slightly suspicious. And her personal growth isn't really being facilitated by people or feelings or anything, but The Machine (so perfect). All the show's done is put Root 1% on the path toward becoming a better person.

Edited September 16, 2014 by stealinghome

[FurryFury]

This. Maybe it's because I'm still somehow watching The Regina Fanfiction Show--I mean, Once Upon a Time--but I've been pretty pleased with how PoI's handled Root's arc so far.

 

Haha, I know your issues with Regina's arc (and I share them!), so it was really nice to see PoI avoid the same trap that Once (and many other shows nowadays, sadly) fall into so eagerly. And, well, I've seen some redemption stories handled really well, so I do have standards. I think Root could be kinda-sorta redeemed - not in the sense she could be a fully functional member of society, just in the sense that I would feel she had realized and paid for her crimes - but it wouldn't come soon and would require something drastic. In fact, I can't really imagine Root not dying or merging with the Machine or something in the very end.

 

She's had a lifelong obsession with computers that eventually evolves into an obsession with The Machine, but she's also always had a disinterest in other human beings with one exception whose murder drives her into an outright dismissive contempt of humanity in general and she makes no attempt to hide this. That obsession can be all to easily transferred over to Samaritan instead.

 

But why should it transfer? Is there any reason? Root has never put any real emphasis on self-preservation, so that's not it. And her relationship with the Machine is really strong - why would she need to risk it for a vague chance of Samaritan acknowledging her? Plus, yes, she's obviously fascinated with Finch and has a kind of mutual respect with Shaw. She does care for them in her own way.

[stealinghome]

I think Root could be kinda-sorta redeemed - not in the sense she could be a fully functional member of society, just in the sense that I would feel she had realized and paid for her crimes - but it wouldn't come soon and would require something drastic. In fact, I can't really imagine Root not dying or merging with the Machine or something in the very end.

Agreed on all counts. I don't think Root could ever really be redeemed, mostly because I don't think she would see the need to be redeemed (which I consider a must for true redemption). She would never think of potential future good deeds as "atonement" or "paying for" her crimes or actively trying to wipe the red off her ledger; imo, the most realistic "best" place a living Root could get to would be to face the extent and scope of her crimes and be determined to do/be better in the future. (Actually, I suppose I could see Root dying to literally save the world as real redemption, but that's literally the only way I could see Root being redeemed.)

 

And yeah, Root's definitely not going to live out the series. Gut instinct tells me she's going out in a blaze of glory at the end of S5.

 

and has a kind of mutual respect with Shaw.

So THAT'S what they're calling it these days. ;)

 

Apropos of absolutely nothing, I really really hope we get more Shaw/Fusco and Root/Fusco scenes this season. Those relationships just delight me.

[FurryFury]

So THAT'S what they're calling it these days. ;)

 

Well, I do notice the LesYay, but I doubt it's intended to be taken seriously. Root's basically asexual anyway... or robosexual, maybe :)

 

Apropos of absolutely nothing, I really really hope we get more Shaw/Fusco and Root/Fusco scenes this season.

 

Fusco was kind of forgotten this season. I even miss him a bit. More humor is never bad, and he has grown on me in a weird way in the past.

[IndependentMind]

I do think that there is more to Root's story that what we were given. It's more than what happened to Hannah. Root wasn't a bad person to begin with. Then something happened to Hannah but that was when she was 10 years old.  She stayed in Texas to care for her mother, then left after her mother died never to be heard from again. I don't think the show will ever go there, but something dark and violent was done to her to turn her from a hacker to a hired killer. And to the point of having moral depravity. And I do agree that we will see Root die at the end of Season 5. I think we will get more and more of her back story leading up to her death at the end of season 5. 

 

In my opinion, the show will not get cancelled but I do see JN and GP ending the series after season 6.

[immortalfrieza]

Fusco was kind of forgotten this season. I even miss him a bit. More humor is never bad, and he has grown on me in a weird way in the past.

Any show that where the writers start trying to do a " suspenseful and serious" plotline they dial back the comedic characters or even make said characters much darker and brooding just like the POI writers are doing with Fusco in an attempt to make things more "serious," utterly failing to recognize that it's those comedic lighthearted moments that make the serious and suspenseful plots have any actual impact on the viewer.

 

 

But why should it transfer? Is there any reason? Root has never put any real emphasis on self-preservation, so that's not it. And her relationship with the Machine is really strong - why would she need to risk it for a vague chance of Samaritan acknowledging her? Plus, yes, she's obviously fascinated with Finch and has a kind of mutual respect with Shaw. She does care for them in her own way.

 

The reason, as I believe I've already mentioned, is because Decima and Samaritan's way of thinking lines up with Root's own much much more than The Machine which runs pretty much completely contrary to it. Root would quite simply enjoy working with Samaritan in just about every way then she would working with The Machine and Team Machine. The most apt analogy I can think of is it's kind of like an atheist that grew up in a extremely religious household sticking with what they're taught for now, then dropping the whole thing once they're free to make their own choices. In short, Root doesn't really like working with The Machine at all, it's just that she didn't have any other outlet for her obsession with machines and thus no other options until Samaritan came online.

Edited September 17, 2014 by immortalfrieza

[stealinghome]

In short, Root doesn't really like working with The Machine at all, it's just that she didn't have any other outlet for her obsession with machines and thus no other options until Samaritan came online.

If The Machine and Samaritan had come online at the same time, I'd agree with you, but you're discounting the fact that at this point, Root has a deep connection to The Machine. She has strong affection for it--perhaps even love for it; she has a deep, deep loyalty to it (I still cringe when I think about the stapedectomy scene); it's literally, in her own words, her purpose for living; hell, Root even calls it "Mom" sometimes! Root's strongly bonded with (and to) The Machine, and she feels like The Machine cares about her in turn. She's not going to throw that over because another machine--that wants to kill The Machine she adores so much and also the people she's come to appreciate, if not care for--might have an ethical code that's more like hers (although really, given the events of Death Benefit, I don't know that The Machine and Samaritan are as far apart as we might like to think) and might also be interested in Root in return. Further, by the time Samaritan comes online, The Machine has already begin to change Root, as we see in 'Root Path.' Could early S2 Root have joined up with Samaritan with absolutely no qualms? Totally. But by 'Deus Ex Machina,' Root's developed too much of a conscience to be able to go to Decima's side.

 

Also, I don't think Root dislikes working with The Machine at all. Does The Machine sometimes push her or challenge her in uncomfortable ways? Sure. But it seems to me that 99.9% of the time Root is happy as a clam doing what The Machine tells her to (and even when it's uncomfortable, she usually gets the reason for it after the fact, and appreciates it--'Root Path' comes to mind). Just look at Root's glee in 'Mors Praematura,' when she tells Shaw The Machine has a mission for her. Look at how excited she got in--was it 'Allegiance,' when Northern Lights shut down and Root realized she was going to be running all around the country dealing with relevant numbers? Whatever episode that was, anyway. Her smugness when she whisked Shaw off to Alaska/Miami in 'Death Benefit,' or when she was all 'She has another task for me" in 'Beta.' Etc. Evidence suggests that Root actually quite likes working for The Machine in the capacity she did in the second half of S3.

[Bort]

Shaw has more tolerance for Root these days (ahem),

*snicker*

I have nothing more to add, sorry.

[IndependentMind]

The reason, as I believe I've already mentioned, is because Decima and Samaritan's way of thinking lines up with Root's own much much more than The Machine which runs pretty much completely contrary to it. Root would quite simply enjoy working with Samaritan in just about every way then she would working with The Machine and Team Machine. The most apt analogy I can think of is it's kind of like an atheist that grew up in a extremely religious household sticking with what they're taught for now, then dropping the whole thing once they're free to make their own choices. In short, Root doesn't really like working with The Machine at all, it's just that she didn't have any other outlet for her obsession with machines and thus no other options until Samaritan came online.

If Decima/Samaritan got to Root first before the Machine did, she will be their ally. But they didn't. The Machine helped her escape the psychiatric ward. She did whatever the Machine asks of her. She even endured the stapendectomy. In Alethea when she came and rescued Harold, Shaw and Arthur, her getting shot and captured by Control was all part of the plan so that Root can tell "Control" that she doesn't belong to her and that she is the one in Control. And that if you don't stop going after my agents, I will take what is most precious to you."

 

Root is loyal to the Machine because it gave her purpose. It is her chance for redemption. 

 

If there is anybody who could go betray them it would be Shaw. Even Sarah said so. 

[FurryFury]

I think we will get more and more of her back story leading up to her death at the end of season 5.

In my opinion, the show will not get cancelled but I do see JN and GP ending the series after season 6.

 

Not sure I'll continue this show without Root. I like Finch and Shaw just fine (Reese to a lesser extent because I don't see a role for him anymore), but she is what makes the show for me. What are the ratings, and how stable were they last season? s4 is always a given for a network show, but you seem to be so sure about s6, and a show has to be pretty popular (and/or pretty cheap and have no competition among the network's other offerings) to last so long.

 

She has strong affection for it--perhaps even love for it; she has a deep, deep loyalty to it (I still cringe when I think about the stapedectomy scene);

 

God, that was intense. I'm a bit sorry they've fixed her ear so soon and easily.

 

Root is loyal to the Machine because it gave her purpose. It is her chance for redemption.

 

She doesn't see it as a redemption, I think. More of a chance to finally put some order and structure in the world she despises.

Edited September 17, 2014 by FurryFury

[IndependentMind]

Not sure I'll continue this show without Root. I like Finch and Shaw just fine (Reese to a lesser extent because I don't see a role for him anymore), but she is what makes the show for me. What are the ratings, and how stable were they last season? s4 is always a given for a network show, but you seem to be so sure about s6, and a show has to be pretty popular (and/or pretty cheap and have no competition among the network's other offerings) to last so long.

I won't either. The reason I stuck around was because of Root. I became a fan of the show initially because of Jim Caviezel. I have always loved that guy. Then I really liked Taraji and loved her character Carter. But when Root came on, I was intrigued with her character. She was evil but she was so darn good. And every time they brought her back, I always looked forward to watching the episodes with Root. I did not know who Amy Acker was. I had no clue. Then I saw her interviews on youtube and her attending panels, and she was so sweet and very charming. And also very shy. She seems like a genuinely nice person. 

 

I don't think they initially intended for the character Root to be expanded this way. But I guess after meeting and working with Amy, they started to see the potential and decided to expand her role more until they fully saw where they could take Root. 

 

Shaw was always meant to be a regular. The moment I saw her, I knew she would be joining the team. 

 

I don't think Amy was going to be a regular in the beginning unlike Sarah. But they needed to make sure that she is available to them and that is why even though she is only in handful of episodes last season, they made her a regular on the show. 

 

The show started out a procedural/genre. But I think JN and GP wanted to get away from the procedural type of show because there is too many out there already and also because I think it limits them. Unlike genre, they can go anywhere they want. It gives them that leeway to change their theme season to season. 

 

The reason why I think the show will end after season 6? JN always talked about how he already knows how it will end. Everything is planned out. 

 

God, that was intense. I'm a bit sorry they've fixed her ear so soon and easily.

Camryn Manheim and Amy Acker were amazing. Amy said they filmed that torture scene for 15 or 18 hours straight. I can't remember but she tweeted about it. I love how Amy's voice changes and her acting was just brilliant.

 

She doesn't see it as a redemption, I think. More of a chance to finally put some order and structure in the world she despises.

Maybe. But I think she does realize that the Machine is teaching her something. And you could see her caring for the team. Not only because the Machine tells her so. 

Edited September 17, 2014 by IndependentMind

[FurryFury]

Yeah, Amy was terrific in s3 in general, but the torture scene just sent chills down my spine. I'm a big fan of Angel, so I knew she had it in her after her character in season 5 was switched to almost a complete opposite and she kept up, but the show (sadly) didn't live long after that. And she had to quit Dollhouse s2 (her character's there was pretty awesome, too) because of some crappy show that didn't live long. It's great she finally has the chance to show off her chops.

 

I don't think Amy was going to be a regular in the beginning unlike Sarah.

 

Yeah, they've clearly stumbled upon Root by accident, but I give the writers credit for realizing she worked and expanding her role accordingly.

 

I'm watching "Most Likely To" right now, and it's delightful. And funny! Plus, I always liked Nestor Carbonell. Wonder if he'll turn out to be the bad guy, for a change, 'cuz he's just too charming.

[FurryFury]

Wait, I don't get it. How could the government turn the Machine off it had relocated somewhere else in s2 finale? I thought it worked independently since then?

[Bort]

They didn't "turn it off," they can't, they terminated their connection.

[FurryFury]

Ah, so they just stopped receiving the relevant threats? Yeah, I suppose it makes sense.

 

By the way, was it ever explained if the relevant numbers work the same way as irrelevant? I.e. it's unclear if it's a target or a threat? If they do, does the government actually investigate the problem or do they just kill that person anyway?

Edited September 17, 2014 by FurryFury

[Bort]

Well yeah, that's what Shaw and her team did, she'd get the relevant number from her superiors (Control, hence the name), investigate and then take action if the person was a threat, which it was most of the time, if not all.

[tessaray]

 

 

    She doesn't see it as a redemption, I think. More of a chance to finally put some order and structure in the world she despises.

Maybe. But I think she does realize that the Machine is teaching her something. And you could see her caring for the team. Not only because the Machine tells her so.

 

I agree that Root didn't care about redemption but she did catch on that the Machine was trying to teach her the value of humanity  (that Finch had imprinted on it).  It's taken awhile for her to get past rolling her eyes about it and complaining how it broke the Machine but I do think she's starting to care about her team.  She still disparages them but the tone has changed.

[IndependentMind]

I agree that Root didn't care about redemption but she did catch on that the Machine was trying to teach her the value of humanity  (that Finch had imprinted on it).  It's taken awhile for her to get past rolling her eyes about it and complaining how it broke the Machine but I do think she's starting to care about her team.  She still disparages them but the tone has changed.

 

It's a slow progression as it should be. Like I mentioned before there is something darker about her past than Hannah. I am just not sure if the show is willing to go there.

Edited September 17, 2014 by IndependentMind

[IndependentMind]

Yeah, Amy was terrific in s3 in general, but the torture scene just sent chills down my spine. I'm a big fan of Angel, so I knew she had it in her after her character in season 5 was switched to almost a complete opposite and she kept up, but the show (sadly) didn't live long after that. And she had to quit Dollhouse s2 (her character's there was pretty awesome, too) because of some crappy show that didn't live long. It's great she finally has the chance to show off her chops.

 

 

Her and Michael I would are in another level with their performances especially when they do their scenes together. People don't realize that Amy's depth as an actor. If given a chance like in the movie "Much Ado...", she deserved a nomination there. She was hands down the star of the film. And she truly carried that film. You should also see her other Indie film "Sironia". 

I loved Jim's scenes with Jessica and the whole Jessica arc. He was so human. I also thought he had such great chemistry with Annie Parisse. I love Kara Stanton. She was so scary. I also loved that arc with Kara and Reese.

 

I think Taraji is a tremendous actress but I just don't think that POI showed that. She had her moments there but you can tell halfway through season 2, Carter wasn't really needed anymore in the direction the show was going. 

[FurryFury]

Ugh, for one glorious second I was hoping they'd actually kill the congressman! Now that would have been a great twist that would increase my respect for the show tenfold. It would actually make me like Reese much more than I do, although I've still really liked him in the last two episodes, compared to the rest of the season.

I just really, really hate it when good guys don't have the guts to do something gray and then have to endure the consequences. It could work if the choice was just Finch's, but not when Reese and Shaw were there. I guess they did it for Finch, but still, a stupid decision.

Also, why didn't the Machine give the number to Root? She'd have to know how moral Finch is, while Root is a character who'd do the Machine's will without any hang-ups.