S05.E12: Checkpoint

[Joe Hellandback]

The Good; Some very good scenes with the council and a nice face off between Buffy and Glory at the Summer's house. Buffy's speech to the council is spot on. Love Tara's little look of panic as she invents a magical proficiency level for her and Willow.

The Bad; Surely Buffy's point that the Watcher's depend on her rather than vice versa is self evident all along?

Best line; Travers; "Glory's not a demon" Buffy; "What is she?" Travers; "She's a god" Oh boy!

Women good/men bad; Buffy tells the Council that she has the power, changing a relationship between Watcher and Slayer that has endured millenia.

Jeez!; Glory brainsucks the postman. Even more horrible is the way she refers to him as 'that' afterwards.

Kinky dinky; The female Watcher seems to have a Spikette's lust for Spike. Spike suggests Buffy's beauty is fading and that she is not has firm and high (at 20?)

Captain Subtext; Willow and Tara finally say what they are out loud. Buffy seems to imply that Rasputin was a vamp. The lover of the one Angel killed in 'Why we fight?' Another terrific Spike/Joyce scene, they both love the Passions TV show. Buffy remarks that she 'Doesn't need a boyfriend'. Once again we see the Glory-Buffy-Dawn subtext with Glory suggesting Ben 'bang' the key's location out of Buffy. She also refers to Buffy as 'Sweetie' and thinks the pictures of her and Dawn are 'So cute'. She describes Dawn as the 'Darlingest thing', 'Honey' and says she likes her as she's 'Sassy'. Glory's minion thinks Ben 'quite attractive'. Willow refers to her and Tara's relationship with Buffy as 'Just friends'.

Apocalypses; 5,

Scoobies in bondage: Buffy: 8 Giles: 4 Cordy: 5 Will: 3 Jenny: 1 Angel: 4 Oz: 1 Faith: 3 Joyce: 1 Wes: 1 Xander; 1 Dawn; 1

Scoobies knocked out: Buffy: 16 Giles: 10 Cordy: 6 Xander: 8 Will: 5 Jenny: 2 Angel: 6 Oz: 3 Faith: 1 Joyce: 3 Wes: 1 Anya;1

Kills: Buffy: 94 vamps, 32 demons, 6 monsters, 3 humans, 1 werewolf, 1 spirit warrior & a robot Giles: 5 vamps, 1 demon Cordy: 3 vamps, a demon Will: 6 vamps Angel: 3 vamps, 1 demon, 1 human Oz: 3 vamps, 1 zombie Faith: 16 vamps, 5 demons, 3 humans Xander: 5 vamps, 2 zombies, a demon, a demon Anya: a demon Riley; 18 vamps + 7 demons Spike; 1 demon and 1 vamp in Scooby service

Scoobies go evil: Giles: 1 Cordy: 1 Will: 2 Jenny: 1 Angel: 1 Oz: 1 Joyce: 1 Xander: 3

Alternate scoobies: Buffy: 6 Giles: 3 Cordy: 1 Will: 2 Jenny: 2 Angel: 3 Oz: 2 Joyce: 2 Xander: 3

Recurring characters killed: 9 Jesse, Flutie, Jenny, Kendra, Larry, Snyder, Professor Walsh, Forrest, McNamara

Sunnydale deaths; 89;

Total number of scoobies: 6 Giles, Xander, Willow, Buffy, Anya, Tara,

Xander demon magnet: 5(6?) Preying Mantis Lady, Inca Mummy Girl, Drusilla, VampWillow, Anya (arguably Buffy & Faith with their demon essences?), Dracula?

Scoobies shot: Giles: 2 Angel: 3 Oz: 4 Riley; 1

Notches on Scooby bedpost: Giles: 2; Joyce & Olivia, possibly Jenny and 3xDraccy babes? Cordy: 1? Buffy: 3 confirmed; Angel, Parker,Riley, 1 possible, Dracula(?) Angel: 1;Buffy Joyce: 1;Giles, 2 possible, Ted and Dracula(?) Oz: 3; Groupie, Willow & Verucca Faith:2 ;Xander, Riley Xander: 2; Faith, Anya Willow: 2;Oz and Tara Riley; 3; Buffy, Sandy and unnamed vampwhore

Questions and observations; First appearance of the Knights of Byzantium. Couldn't they put their tattoos somewhere a little less obvious?

Spoiler

Of course the Watcher's are right about the dangers of some of the Magic Shop contents as Triangle and later eps will prove.

The stars are once again pivotal to Glory's spell. So how do we kill a god? Titan's rib? Golden Hind's blood? Xena?

So who are these Byzantium guys and what do they want other than to fight Glory? (which seems pretty admirable but bad news for Dawn). I always figured that maybe the Watcher's Council had some form of schism reformation style and they're an offshoot

Marks out of 10; 6/10

[Loandbehold]

My favorite line was: 

NIGEL: This is beyond insolence-

Buffy grabs the sword from the table and throws it across the room in a single movement. It flies point-first into the wall directly in front of Nigel's nose. He jumps back looking shocked. [thunk!

BUFFY: (clears throat) I'm fairly certain I said no interruptions.

Go slayer! 

I also really liked the scene b/w Glory, Buffy, and Dawn. For most of the season Glory has been mostly this ditz god(dess) even when being evil. But her turn in the living room scene was menacing b/c it wasn't over-the-top. D'Hoffryn would do the same thing (see Something Blue) and I always loved it. 

On the whole, this is one of my favorite episodes of the season. Despite another example of a professor that goes beyond ridiculous. I swear it seems that one of the writers had a horrible experience w/ a professor in college and decided to get revenge. 

[lembergwatcher]

A big ego boost ep for Buffy I must say. And the one that highlighted everything what was wrong with the show in the later seasons IMO.

Let's start with the first. I think Buffy's self-esteem has greatly improved following several scenes in Checkpoint.

1. The freaking crazed goddess came home to her begging for the Key and walked away with nothing (technically, Buffy didn't know who Glory was at that moment,

Spoiler

but after Quentin revealed the secret regarding the new Big Bad at the end of the ep, the whole thing had surely sent our Slayer a particularly strong message).

2. Buffy's supposed arch nemesis Spike agreed to shelter Slayer's mom and sis in his crypt without any preconditions. Nevermind, it was the same ol' Spike, whose girlfriend kidnapped and threatened to kill Dawn a few eps earlier, and it was the very same Spikey, who made an attempt to get rid of his chip for obvious reasons not so long ago. "You're the only one strong enough to protect them", may ass. That sounded almost exactly as

Spoiler

one interesting line from S.07's Empty Places. And let us not forget that Buffy's action might have sent Captain Peroxide a very strong signal regarding his object of attraction ("Slayer needs me!") thus giving the bleached vamp much desired proof that his stalking wasn't that futile after all. Just check out Crush or I Was Made to Love You.

Why was Buffy so confident in Spike (confident enough to leave her family members in his care) and what exactly gave her the reason to believe both Dawn and Joyce would be safe, I guess I'll never learn.

3. Buffy has easily intimidated the once powerful Watchers Council forcing Travers and company to accept her demands almost unconditionally just by throwing fits (or swords) and giving some lame speeches

Spoiler

therefore foreshadowing lots of the similar shit we would eventually see in the seventh season.

Well, most of us do agree that the Council sucked, no doubt about it. But OTOH they came to Sunnydale to help the gang whether we like it or not (following Giles' plea actually).  Maybe Buffy was absolutely right considering Council's motivation.

Quote

BUFFY: You guys didn't come all the way from England to determine whether or not I was good enough to be let back in. You came to beg me to let you back in. To give your jobs, your lives some semblance of meaning.

  But the thing is we will never know for sure, 'cause we had no chance to learn what the review Buffy refused to undergo could be about. There's no point arguing whether it could (theoretically at least) help Buffy in her searching for the answers concerning her slayer essence or something (answers she wanted to know since the season's first ep), or not. But what if the whole thing could be at least a little beneficial if not to Buffy personally, but to the Scoobies' cause in general? Most fans probably see strength of will, determination and overall coolness in Buffy's attitude exposed in the final scene of the ep. Me, I see nothing but the immature childish bullying in a "I'm the Slayer, I got the power, so fuck you all!" way. Yes, Buffy got everything she wanted that time (just like most of the times), though I doubt it did her any good in the long run (people cannot always have their way, you know. It spoils them in the end).

 

4. Buffy's closest friends themselves confirmed almost everything Spike said in Doomed (and Buffy's fanboys continue to say to this day and, who knows, probably Buffy herself wanted to hear in one way or another), while being interviewed by the councilmen, i.e. Buffy didn't need their help that much, she could do it all by herself and therefore they were, I dunno, just some kind of useless POS (what was the point for them hanging around if super Buffy could do everything singlehandedly in more than 95% of the cases? You tell me). Probably the Monks of Mindfuck did their "best" even regarding the Scoobies' memories about participating in the slaying (I'm not sure whether Travers revealed the Scoobs' statements to Buffy, 

Spoiler

but she started treating her best friends like garbage in the following seasons and I won't be surprised to learn W/X contributed to it indirectly).

Quote

Power. I have it. They don't.

I kinda cringe everytime I hear that pathetic gibberish. Few things saddened me as much as the show's departure from its initial message (the journey and the struggle of the Slayer and her friends/allies) in favor of celebrating the frigging power (and the ones who had it).

Spoiler

Everything was almost entirely about the power (i. e. superpower) and the supernatural from then on. Power, power, power. Power evereywhere and in everything. The sun rose and set with the precious power, because only the power was something that truly mattered (and someone was able to spot it even in Spike's ass, mind you). And what about those of us who were born without some, you know, additional skills? Need not apply, thank you very much. In fact starting with the season 5 Buffyverse itself slowly transformed into the twisted fantasy world, where power junkies ruled while someone like Spike would always be valued more than someone like Xander.

Feel free to disagree, but the damage was done IMO. The series' paradigm was increasingly about power/supernatural and less and less about humanity (humans were scum, powerless useless pawns, and they sucked) since then. Dunno about you, but I can't imagine Buffy from earlier seasons saying something like that (code words for "I'm so much better and way ahead of everyone of you, you insignificant mortals!"). I guess we have some seeds of true megalomania here ("Without a Slayer, you're pretty much just watchin' Masterpiece Theater" sounds pretty much like like "Without ME you're...").
 

Quote

WATCHER2: I, uh, I ... don't want a sword thrown at me, but, but, civilians, I - we're talking about children.
BUFFY: We're talking about two very powerful witches and a thousand-year-old ex-demon.
ANYA: Willow's a demon?!
PHILIP: The boy? No power there.
BUFFY: The boy has clocked more field time than all of you combined. He's part of the unit.
WILLOW: That's Riley-speak.
XANDER: I've clocked field time.

Call me nitpicky, but that particular moment is a clear example of everything that went wrong with Buffy. Let's start with "civilians". How about some logical consistency, you know? It's bizarre to say the least. The Scoobie Gang started slaying in '97 and until '99 operated (albeit formally) under Council's guidance. Neither Giles nor Wesley as the Council's representatives objected to X, W, C, O participating and even fighting along with Buffy (even if Giles himself covered up the "civilian" presence in the field, I'm fairly certain Wesley's reports were totally accurate). So why all of a sudden did the "civilians" and their age become an issue in 2001 (they were older compared 97-99 after all)? 


Second. If the presence of the Slayer's friends in the field was such a fundamental question (and it was for God's sake!), why not emphasize who those guys were to the Chosen One? It won't be all bad to tell those eggheads that the "children" they mentioned (at least two of them) were Slayer's best and most trusted friends since the beginning - those, who were always there for her, the ones who helped Buffy saving the day all of the time. Willow supposed to be Buffy's closest friend, who always had her back, not just "very powerful witch" (was that - the function and not a person - all that had any significance from then on?). And it was even worse regarding Xander. You owed that "boy" your life, Buffy, didn't you remember? Why not tell those eggheads (since it was in Buffy's interest to have all such questions solved once and for all)? The Council questioned Xander's legitimacy in the team (no fucking power - the new sin of the Buffyverse). Therefore why not convince them permanently? Or was it all of a sudden some sorta "bad sign" to even mention Xander's merits, huh? Part of the unit, duh. Well, Principal Snyder could also be considered "part of the unit" in Band Candy and he spent some considerable amount of time in the field either (just remember Choices or Graduation Day, Part 2). Then again Xander was Buffy's good and loyal friend from the day one... Or such "minor things" didn't matter anymore?


Not a bad episode, but the tendencies are uninspiring...     

Edited September 23, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Jack Shaftoe]

This episode would have been a lot shorter if Buffy or one of the Scoobies had done the obvious thing by saying "You know what? You, dear guests from England, don't want the world to end any more than we do, so please spill the beans". Buffy's speech is pretty weird since this same Council showed no interest whatsoever in the Slayer in seasons 1 and 2 and I would venture that its members did not consider their lives meaningless back then. I know I say it a lot but the Council is just a clumsy plot device to me, I can't take it seriously even for a second. The way they somehow found out about Spike but didn't so much as threaten to kill him merely confirmed that.

The interrogation of the Scoobies is hilarious and Willow and Tara are adorable but it would be nice to have an episode without a silly premise for once in this season. But that's a little hard considering how incredibly silly the premise of the entire seasonal arc is. YMMV and all that.

The Watchers whining about "children" is all the more stupid considering most Slayers die before they are the current age of our Buffy.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Jack Shaftoe

[Joe Hellandback]

12 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

My favorite line was: 

NIGEL: This is beyond insolence-

Buffy grabs the sword from the table and throws it across the room in a single movement. It flies point-first into the wall directly in front of Nigel's nose. He jumps back looking shocked. [thunk!

BUFFY: (clears throat) I'm fairly certain I said no interruptions.

Go slayer! 

I also really liked the scene b/w Glory, Buffy, and Dawn. For most of the season Glory has been mostly this ditz god(dess) even when being evil. But her turn in the living room scene was menacing b/c it wasn't over-the-top. D'Hoffryn would do the same thing (see Something Blue) and I always loved it. 

On the whole, this is one of my favorite episodes of the season. Despite another example of a professor that goes beyond ridiculous. I swear it seems that one of the writers had a horrible experience w/ a professor in college and decided to get revenge. 

I didn't think the prof seemed nasty?

11 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

A big ego boost ep for Buffy I must say. And the one that highlighted everything what was wrong with the show in the later seasons IMO.

Let's start with the first. I think Buffy's self-esteem has greatly improved following several scenes in Checkpoint.

1. The freaking crazed goddess came home to her begging for the Key and walked away with nothing (technically, Buffy didn't know who Glory was at that moment,

  Hide contents

but after Quentin revealed the secret regarding the new Big Bad at the end of the ep, the whole thing had surely sent our Slayer a particularly strong message).

2. Buffy's supposed arch nemesis Spike agreed to shelter Slayer's mom and sis in his crypt without any preconditions. Nevermind, it was the same ol' Spike, whose girlfriend kidnapped and threatened to kill Dawn a few eps earlier, and it was the very same Spikey, who made an attempt to get rid of his chip for obvious reasons not so long ago. "You're the only one strong enough to protect them", may ass. That sounded almost exactly as

  Hide contents

one interesting line from S.07's Empty Places. And let us not forget that Buffy's action might have sent Captain Peroxide a very strong signal regarding his object of attraction ("Slayer needs me!") thus giving the bleached vamp much desired proof that his stalking wasn't that futile after all. Just check out Crush or I Was Made to Love You.

Why was Buffy so confident in Spike (confident enough to leave her family members in his care) and what exactly gave her the reason to believe both Dawn and Joyce would be safe, I guess I'll never learn.

3. Buffy has easily intimidated the once powerful Watchers Council forcing Travers and company to accept her demands almost unconditionally just by throwing fits (or swords) and giving some lame speeches

  Hide contents

therefore foreshadowing lots of the similar shit we would eventually see in the seventh season.

Well, most of us do agree that the Council sucked, no doubt about it. But OTOH they came to Sunnydale to help the gang whether we like it or not (following Giles' plea actually).  Maybe Buffy was absolutely right considering Council's motivation.

  But the thing is we will never know for sure, 'cause we had no chance to learn what the review Buffy refused to undergo could be about. There's no point arguing whether it could (theoretically at least) help Buffy in her searching for the answers concerning her slayer essence or something (answers she wanted to know since the season's first ep), or not. But what if the whole thing could be at least a little beneficial if not to Buffy personally, but to the Scoobies' cause in general? Most fans probably see strength of will, determination and overall coolness in Buffy's attitude exposed in the final scene of the ep. Me, I see nothing but the immature childish bullying in a "I'm the Slayer, I got the power, so fuck you all!" way. Yes, Buffy got everything she wanted that time (just like most of the times), though I doubt it did her any good in the long run (people cannot always have their way, you know. It spoils them in the end).

 

4. Buffy's closest friends themselves confirmed almost everything Spike said in Doomed (and Buffy's fanboys continue to say to this day and, who knows, probably Buffy herself wanted to hear in one way or another), while being interviewed by the councilmen, i.e. Buffy didn't need their help that much, she could do it all by herself and therefore they were, I dunno, just some kind of useless POS (what was the point for them hanging around if super Buffy could do everything singlehandedly in more than 95% of the cases? You tell me). Probably the Monks of Mindfuck did their "best" even regarding the Scoobies' memories about participating in the slaying (I'm not sure whether Travers revealed the Scoobs' statements to Buffy, 

  Hide contents

but she started treating her best friends like garbage in the following seasons and I won't be surprised to learn W/X contributed to it indirectly).

I kinda cringe everytime I hear that pathetic gibberish. Few things saddened me as much as the show's departure from its initial message (the journey and the struggle of the Slayer and her friends/allies) in favor of celebrating the frigging power (and the ones who had it).

  Hide contents

Everything was almost entirely about the power (i. e. superpower) and the supernatural from then on. Power, power, power. Power evereywhere and in everything. The sun rose and set with the precious power, because only the power was something that truly mattered (and someone was able to spot it even in Spike's ass, mind you). And what about those of us who were born without some, you know, additional skills? Need not apply, thank you very much. In fact starting with the season 5 Buffyverse itself slowly transformed into the twisted fantasy world, where power junkies ruled while someone like Spike would always be valued more than someone like Xander.

Feel free to disagree, but the damage was done IMO. The series' paradigm was increasingly about power/supernatural and less and less about humanity (humans were scum, powerless useless pawns, and they sucked) since then. Dunno about you, but I can't imagine Buffy from earlier seasons saying something like that (code words for "I'm so much better and way ahead of everyone of you, you insignificant mortals!"). I guess we have some seeds of true megalomania here ("Without a Slayer, you're pretty much just watchin' Masterpiece Theater" sounds pretty much like like "Without ME you're...").
 

Call me nitpicky, but that particular moment is a clear example of everything that went wrong with Buffy. Let's start with "civilians". How about some logical consistency, you know? It's bizarre to say the least. The Scoobie Gang started slaying in '97 and until '99 operated (albeit formally) under Council's guidance. Neither Giles nor Wesley as the Council's representatives objected to X, W, C, O participating and even fighting along with Buffy (even if Giles himself covered up the "civilian" presence in the field, I'm fairly certain Wesley's reports were totally accurate). So why all of a sudden did the "civilians" and their age become an issue in 2001 (they were older compared 97-99 after all)? 


Second. If the presence of the Slayer's friends in the field was such a fundamental question (and it was for God's sake!), why not emphasize who those guys were to the Chosen One? It won't be all bad to tell those eggheads that the "children" they mentioned (at least two of them) were Slayer's best and most trusted friends since the beginning - those, who were always there for her, the ones who helped Buffy saving the day all of the time. Willow supposed to be Buffy's closest friend, who always had her back, not just "very powerful witch" (was that - the function and not a person - all that had any significance from then on?). And it was even worse regarding Xander. You owed that "boy" your life, Buffy, didn't you remember? Why not tell those eggheads (since it was in Buffy's interest to have all such questions solved once and for all)? The Council questioned Xander's legitimacy in the team (no fucking power - the new sin of the Buffyverse). Therefore why not convince them permanently? Or was it all of a sudden some sorta "bad sign" to even mention Xander's merits, huh? Part of the unit, duh. Well, Principal Snyder could also be considered "part of the unit" in Band Candy and he spent some considerable amount of time in the field either (just remember Choices or Graduation Day, Part 2). Then again Xander was Buffy's good and loyal friend from the day one... Or such "minor things" didn't matter anymore?


Not a bad episode, but the tendencies are uninspiring...     

The Council didn't have to care in the first few seasons, they had Giles and Wesley, their representatives. Equally Buffy uses Spike as a mercenary, she can't trust him but he's convenient (and can't hurt Joyce/Dawn)

[Joe Hellandback]

11 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

This episode would have been a lot shorter if Buffy or one of the Scoobies had done the obvious thing by saying "You know what? You, dear guests from England, don't want the world to end any more than we do, so please spill the beans". Buffy's speech is pretty weird since this same Council showed no interest whatsoever in the Slayer in seasons 1 and 2 and I would venture that its members did not consider their lives meaningless back then. I know I say it a lot but the Council is just a clumsy plot device to me, I can't take it seriously even for a second. The way they somehow found out about Spike but didn't so much as threaten to kill him merely confirmed that.

The interrogation of the Scoobies is hilarious and Willow and Tara are adorable but it would be nice to have an episode without a silly premise for once in this season. But that's a little hard considering how incredibly silly the premise of the entire seasonal arc is. YMMV and all that.

The Watchers whining about "children" is all the more stupid considering most Slayers die before they are the current age of our Buffy.

True but it brings home their attitude 

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

The Council didn't have to care in the first few seasons, they had Giles and Wesley, their representatives. Equally Buffy uses Spike as a mercenary, she can't trust him but he's convenient (and can't hurt Joyce/Dawn)

Well, if Buffy can't trust Spike (which is perfectly okay for obvious reasons), then the only thing he can be convenient to is watering the plants in the Summers garden. But leaving mother and sister in Spikey's crypt?.. I said it before and I'll say it again: yes, he can't either bite Joyce/Dawn or snap their necks by himself, but that doesn't mean someone else (say, Harmony) cannot hurt both of them for Captain Peroxide. Me, I would never leave a cat in Spikey's care, let alone my dearest loves.

[Jack Shaftoe]

How is Spike supposed to protect anyone from Glory anyway? She is vastly stronger than him. Then again the entire premise of the season is Buffy having to protect Dawn from Glory, so you can say the writers are being consistent in their stupidity.

[Loandbehold]

9 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I didn't think the prof seemed nasty?

Scene: 

Quote

 

Cut to: UC Sunnydale classroom. Buffy is sitting among the students, yawning while the professor lectures.

PROFESSOR: Now, Rasputin was associated with a certain obscure religious sect. (Buffy taps her pencil on her desk. The girl next to her glares. Buffy sees her and stops tapping the pencil but continues fidgeting) They held the tenet that in order to be forgiven, one first had to sin. Rasputin embraced this doctrine and proceeded to sin impressively and repeatedly. The notion that he was in fact evil gained strength years later (Buffy fiddles with her pencil, drops it, shrugs and doesn't pick it up) when the conspirators who set out to kill him found it nearly impossible to do so.
BUFFY: (to herself) Nearly impossible?
PROFESSOR: I'm sorry, there's a question?

The students look at Buffy.

PROFESSOR: (sighing) Miss Summers, of course.

Buffy makes a pained face, stands up as the professor gives her a disapproving look.

BUFFY: I, uh, about, you know, killing him ... you know, they, they poisoned him and, and they beat him and they shot him, and he didn't die.
PROFESSOR: Until they rolled his body in a carpet and drowned him in a canal.
BUFFY: But there are reported sightings of him as late as the 1930s, aren't there?
PROFESSOR: I can assure you there is near consensus in the academic community regarding the death of Rasputin.
BUFFY: There was also near consensus about Columbus, you know, until someone asked the Vikings what they were up to in the 1400s, and they're like, "discovering this America-shaped continent." (Professor looks annoyed) I just ... I'm only saying, you know, it might be interesting, if we .... came at it from, you know, a different perspective, that's all.
PROFESSOR: Well, I'm sorry if you find these facts so boring, Miss Summers. Maybe you'd prefer I step aside, so that you can teach your own course. Speculation 101 perhaps? (The other students laugh) Intro to Flights of Fancy? (The students laugh more)
BUFFY: I only meant-
PROFESSOR: What was it you were going on about last week? Mysterious sleeping patterns of the Prussian generals? (Buffy looks annoyed) Now, some of us are here to learn. Believe it or not, we're interested in finding out what actually happened. It's called studying history. You can sit down now. Unless you have something else to add, professor?

 

Putting down and making fun of a student in front of the rest of the class. I'd say that was nasty. Being snide and nasty students is what a professor's office hours are for.

[Joe Hellandback]

14 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Well, if Buffy can't trust Spike (which is perfectly okay for obvious reasons), then the only thing he can be convenient to is watering the plants in the Summers garden. But leaving mother and sister in Spikey's crypt?.. I said it before and I'll say it again: yes, he can't either bite Joyce/Dawn or snap their necks by himself, but that doesn't mean someone else (say, Harmony) cannot hurt both of them for Captain Peroxide. Me, I would never leave a cat in Spikey's care, let alone my dearest loves.

Perhaps they're hinting Buffy already knows about

Spoiler

Spike's obsession, they've already had their moment at the end of Fool for Love?

7 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

Scene: 

Putting down and making fun of a student in front of the rest of the class. I'd say that was nasty. Being snide and nasty students is what a professor's office hours are for.

I was thinking of the wrong guy, I thought you meant

Spoiler

The guy whom she helps with his slide machine when she drops out. 

[Loandbehold]

20 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I was thinking of the wrong guy, I thought you meant

  Hide contents

Spoiler

The guy whom she helps with his slide machine when she drops out. 

 

Spoiler

He was the one prof who wasn't a bastard to Buffy. Or, you know, wasn't an Evil Bitch Monster From Hell. 

Edited September 24, 2018 by Loandbehold

[Halting Hex]

On 9/23/2018 at 6:20 PM, Joe Hellandback said:

Perhaps they're hinting Buffy already knows about

  Hide contents

Spike's obsession, they've already had their moment at the end of Fool for Love?

Doesn't seem too likely,

Spoiler

given as Buffy reacts in shock to Spike's idea that they're on a "date" in Crush and is venting about being the focus of his "affections" in I Was Made to Love You.

If what you hypothesize is true, there'd be no reason for her reactions.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎27‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 6:00 PM, Halting Hex said:

Doesn't seem too likely,

  Hide contents

given as Buffy reacts in shock to Spike's idea that they're on a "date" in Crush and is venting about being the focus of his "affections" in I Was Made to Love You.

If what you hypothesize is true, there'd be no reason for her reactions.

I think Buffy figured Spike was obsessed with her just not the nature of his obsession.  

[Halting Hex]

This always annoys me, with the gang literally stuck up in the peanut gallery.  I know this is mostly a Buffy/Giles episode, and those 'shippers (including friendshippers) get some nice pieces thrown their way ("They picked the perfect thing.  I can't lose you."  "She's not your bloody instrument!" "*cough* retroactive! *cough* "), but I'm too invested in W/X to have them just pushed aside like this.  And I really don't like the reduction of the team to just the surface descriptions ("two witches, a thousand-year-old demon, blah-blah field time, etc…"), as I'm sure I've written a time or six.

What I just realized today, though, is how sucky it is for Anya to rat out Willow ("Willow's a demon??"), given that she's been portrayed as worried about being exposed as such throughout the episode.  ("Kill the current demons, right?  Current demons.")  So basically, she's throwing Willow to the wolves here.  And I know, Anya, but still.  Especially as the episode right before this one was our big "Anya and Willow work things out and make up" episode.  Was Doug not in the writer's room when they were breaking down the plot of Triangle for Jane to write, or something?

I mean, I suppose it's nice of Anya not to choose Tara for "demonhood", given that Tara had been so stressed about her "secret" pre-Family, but I still would like character growth to last for more than 40 minutes, I'm just saying.

A nice portion of the blame should also go on Buffy's shoulders, since she's the one who threw "thousand-year-old ex-demon" out there in the first place.  And it's not as if she didn't know Anya had these issues; Anya had her "they don't sound very ex-demon-compatible" stress ball right in Buffy's own living room, ffs.  Rather than reduce her friends to their "powers", IMO, it should have been something more like this:

Quote

BUFFY:  The last thing I need to do is justify my support system to you, given that I'm the Slayer and you're…not.  But just so you know, the girls are all knowledgeable about witchcraft and demonology and—

ANYA (still defensive):  Demonology.  The study of demons.  Not being demons, no sir!

BUFFY:  —and all the other occult arts.  And as for Xander, he's fought alongside everyone from Slayers to Watchers to vampires to US military commandos; he's spent more time in the field than all of you combined.  So I'm going to keep doing things my way.  Because, again, I'm the Slayer.  And you need me more than I need you.

Lastly, I'm not terribly wild about Willow being all gushing when she says "field time" is "Riley-speak", since Riley did hurt Buffy to the point where she's still mopey when she finds random sweaters. (And he left the rest of them without a proper goodbye,

Spoiler

as Dawn will note in As You Were

.)  But I think I'd put that more on Alyson Hannigan than on the script, which only says that Willow says this "softly".  Seems as though there might be room for bit of "wistful remembrance" nuance in there, but Aly just basically beams the line.  Oh, well.

Edited October 23, 2018 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

2 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Rather than reduce her friends to their "powers"...

Buffy just followed the new party line. Because everything was about the power and supernatural abilities since season 5. What if Buffy finally adopted the Council's vision of things and started slowly to view her friends as a mere instruments in the fight, not as actual friends?

 

2 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

 And as for Xander, he's fought alongside everyone from Slayers to Watchers to vampires to US military commandos; he's spent more time in the field than all of you combined.

...and he saved my life on more than one occassion!

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎23‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 7:32 PM, Halting Hex said:

This always annoys me, with the gang literally stuck up in the peanut gallery.  I know this is mostly a Buffy/Giles episode, and those 'shippers (including friendshippers) get some nice pieces thrown their way ("They picked the perfect thing.  I can't lose you."  "She's not your bloody instrument!" "*cough* retroactive! *cough* "), but I'm too invested in W/X to have them just pushed aside like this.  And I really don't like the reduction of the team to just the surface descriptions ("two witches, a thousand-year-old demon, blah-blah field time, etc…"), as I'm sure I've written a time or six.

What I just realized today, though, is how sucky it is for Anya to rat out Willow ("Willow's a demon??"), given that she's been portrayed as worried about being exposed as such throughout the episode.  ("Kill the current demons, right?  Current demons.")  So basically, she's throwing Willow to the wolves here.  And I know, Anya, but still.  Especially as the episode right before this one was our big "Anya and Willow work things out and make up" episode.  Was Doug not in the writer's room when they were breaking down the plot of Triangle for Jane to write, or something?

I mean, I suppose it's nice of Anya not to choose Tara for "demonhood", given that Tara had been so stressed about her "secret" pre-Family, but I still would like character growth to last for more than 40 minutes, I'm just saying.

A nice portion of the blame should also go on Buffy's shoulders, since she's the one who threw "thousand-year-old ex-demon" out there in the first place.  And it's not as if she didn't know Anya had these issues; Anya had her "they don't sound very ex-demon-compatible" stress ball right in Buffy's own living room, ffs.  Rather than reduce her friends to their "powers", IMO, it should have been something more like this:

Lastly, I'm not terribly wild about Willow being all gushing when she says "field time" is "Riley-speak", since Riley did hurt Buffy to the point where she's still mopey when she finds random sweaters. (And he left the rest of them without a proper goodbye,

  Hide contents

as Dawn will note in As You Were

.)  But I think I'd put that more on Alyson Hannigan than on the script, which only says that Willow says this "softly".  Seems as though there might be room for bit of "wistful remembrance" nuance in there, but Aly just basically beams the line.  Oh, well.

I liked that, remember Willow was on Team Riley and it was the one time her matchmaking worked out

[Halting Hex]

Look, I know I may be on borrowed time with Shan, that she loves Spike too much to not eventually go from laughing at how pathetic he was with the Buffy-mannequin in Triangle to eventually being a full-throated Spuffer…but even she was all "why are you trusting Spike?" when Buffy brought Joyce and Dawn to the crypt.  (Instead of, say, taking a mother/daughter camping trip out of town, or something.)  I mean, the last time Buffy went to Spike for a favor (Out of My Mind), he promptly turned around and betrayed her.  (Leading to my howls over the subsquent non-stakings, but that's a different issue.)

Likewise, while Buffy may not know Spike spent most of Fool For Shmoop blowing smoke up her ass and perhaps Riley didn't tell her about Spike stealing her clothes in Shadow, Buffy does know that Spike was burgling her home in Listening to Fear and that he worked to sabotage her relationship in Into the Woods.  Given that Buffy just previously thought that Spike was "disgusting" for trying to claim credit for "not feeding off of bleeding disaster victims", where exactly is this "trust' supposed to be coming from?

I mean this whole "You're... the only one strong enough to protect them" bilge comes literally the next scene after Glory told Buffy "If I wanted to fight, you could tell be the being dead already".  If Glory is significantly stronger than Buffy and Buffy is at least equal to Spike, then it's only basic math that says Glory is significantly stronger than Spike, too. Add it up, it all spells "Duh!"

(Not to mention that we're not even sure if Spike can fight against Glory, at all. Who knows how that chip will react to her?  Shan had a theory [and was sad when the final scene here crushed it] that Glory was actually a long-ago slayer who had died and been revived [because there's no reason that Buffy should have been the first one that happened to, right?] and her mental powers/issues and greater strength were the result of her being so far past her sell-by date.  That's not how it's turning out to be, but for Buffy to just assume that Glory is a "demon" that Spike can hit is a bit of a leap, especially as Glory has yet to show any physical attributes of demonhood in all the multiple times Buffy and the Scoobs have met her.)

On 9/23/2018 at 7:00 AM, Jack Shaftoe said:

How is Spike supposed to protect anyone from Glory anyway? She is vastly stronger than him. Then again the entire premise of the season is Buffy having to protect Dawn from Glory, so you can say the writers are being consistent in their stupidity.

Trying to find a way to go in the face of overwhelming odds is part of Buffy's Hero's Dilemma, her Challenge for the Season.  

Spoiler

(Which eventually she solves by doing her version of the Kobayashi Maru, so that works.)

I have no problem with Joss giving Buffy a seemingly-insurmountable difficulty to conquer; that's the drama of the situation.

OTOH, her deciding that "more of the same" is a solution seems even more ridiculous than ever, then.  All Spike's going to do is punch people…and Buffy's got her own fists, should she need them.  Anya knowing some way to wish Glory into the World Without Shrimp is far more likely to be of help than Spike volunteerng to be imminently-kicked ass #2, for example.

Plus, to return to the basic issue, there's no reason for Buffy to trust him in the first place.  If she thought he was willing to offer his life for her approval, she wouldn't have brought the money.  And if she thought that the money would buy his unconditional fidelity, then she's forgotten Out of My Mind (and arguably even Fool for Love) on that score.  Grrr.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎29‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 3:34 PM, Halting Hex said:

Look, I know I may be on borrowed time with Shan, that she loves Spike too much to not eventually go from laughing at how pathetic he was with the Buffy-mannequin in Triangle to eventually being a full-throated Spuffer…but even she was all "why are you trusting Spike?" when Buffy brought Joyce and Dawn to the crypt.  (Instead of, say, taking a mother/daughter camping trip out of town, or something.)  I mean, the last time Buffy went to Spike for a favor (Out of My Mind), he promptly turned around and betrayed her.  (Leading to my howls over the subsquent non-stakings, but that's a different issue.)

Likewise, while Buffy may not know Spike spent most of Fool For Shmoop blowing smoke up her ass and perhaps Riley didn't tell her about Spike stealing her clothes in Shadow, Buffy does know that Spike was burgling her home in Listening to Fear and that he worked to sabotage her relationship in Into the Woods.  Given that Buffy just previously thought that Spike was "disgusting" for trying to claim credit for "not feeding off of bleeding disaster victims", where exactly is this "trust' supposed to be coming from?

I mean this whole "You're... the only one strong enough to protect them" bilge comes literally the next scene after Glory told Buffy "If I wanted to fight, you could tell be the being dead already".  If Glory is significantly stronger than Buffy and Buffy is at least equal to Spike, then it's only basic math that says Glory is significantly stronger than Spike, too. Add it up, it all spells "Duh!"

(Not to mention that we're not even sure if Spike can fight against Glory, at all. Who knows how that chip will react to her?  Shan had a theory [and was sad when the final scene here crushed it] that Glory was actually a long-ago slayer who had died and been revived [because there's no reason that Buffy should have been the first one that happened to, right?] and her mental powers/issues and greater strength were the result of her being so far past her sell-by date.  That's not how it's turning out to be, but for Buffy to just assume that Glory is a "demon" that Spike can hit is a bit of a leap, especially as Glory has yet to show any physical attributes of demonhood in all the multiple times Buffy and the Scoobs have met her.)

Trying to find a way to go in the face of overwhelming odds is part of Buffy's Hero's Dilemma, her Challenge for the Season.  

  Hide contents

(Which eventually she solves by doing her version of the Kobayashi Maru, so that works.)

I have no problem with Joss giving Buffy a seemingly-insurmountable difficulty to conquer; that's the drama of the situation.

OTOH, her deciding that "more of the same" is a solution seems even more ridiculous than ever, then.  All Spike's going to do is punch people…and Buffy's got her own fists, should she need them.  Anya knowing some way to wish Glory into the World Without Shrimp is far more likely to be of help than Spike volunteerng to be imminently-kicked ass #2, for example.

Plus, to return to the basic issue, there's no reason for Buffy to trust him in the first place.  If she thought he was willing to offer his life for her approval, she wouldn't have brought the money.  And if she thought that the money would buy his unconditional fidelity, then she's forgotten Out of My Mind (and arguably even Fool for Love) on that score.  Grrr.

Spike can protect them to a degree, more so than anyone else except Willow and Buffy needs her elsewhere. 

[lembergwatcher]

How come ordinary psychos see something is amiss with Dawn but Goddess Almighty don't? Isn't she supposed to be familiar with what insanity does to humans? Why not use one of her victims as some kind of key-o-meter?

Spoiler

She eventually does this several eps later. Yes, she has no idea what the Key is for quite a long time, but can't she guess the loons can be of some help earlier?

Why does Glory have to come over to Buffy's house and almost beg the Slayer to give her the Key? She's the Goddess, after all. How about some, you know, self-respect? She's much stronger than Buffy as we all saw in No Place Like Home and Shadow. She's totally able to take Buffy prisoner, interrogate her and try to get information in a rather brutal and painful way

Spoiler

(just like she does with Spike six episodes later).

 I mean, torturing Buffy herself is a logical step since she surely knows what Glory wants to know. Despite constantly bitching and moaning about losing precious time, Glory chose to play stupid games instead of focusing on the one person who knows for certain where the Key is.

[Halting Hex]

Spoiler

"You're not the brightest god in the heavens, are you?" —Buffy to Glory, The Gift.

Hey. nobody said the Big Bads all had to be Maggie Walsh, y'know?

Edited February 2, 2019 by Halting Hex

[Halting Hex]

On 9/22/2018 at 5:05 PM, lembergwatcher said:

LYDIA: I, uh, I ... don't want a sword thrown at me

As much as I may disagree with this show (and indeed this very scene) from time to time, I do sometimes want to bask in enjoyment at a line such as this, that Joss & co. created a world where this is a perfectly logical sentiment for Lydia to express, even though you'd think it would be obvious had Buffy not thrown any swords in the scene.

Reminds me a bit of Willow's "Do you see any goats around here?" rant in Gingerbread, where, as someone once put it, "normally, you don't really need to explain an absence of goats inside a house…"

But, "this being Sunnydale and all…", and anything that rings that particular emotional chime always gets a smile out of me.  So, credit where it's due.  Stupid "field time" debate or not.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

Quote

And I'll kill her. I'll kill your mom, I'll kill your friends ... and I'll make you watch when I do.

I know an empty threat when I hear one. I wonder what stopped the goddess almighty from going through with her threat and actually killing everyone Buffy held dear? 

Spoiler

The worst things Glory did were torturing Spike, brainsucking Tara and nearly sacrificing Dawn but only after learning Buffy's lil sis' origins and not to fulfill her promise.

Since when are the gods begging and making idle threats?

Funny thing: after hearing Glory's words Buffy appoints Spike to be her mom's and sister's bodyguard but apparently does nothing to protect (or to warn, at least) Xander, Willow, Tara, Anya and Giles. She's so "concerned" with her friends' well-being she chose to keep W/X/A/T in the dark regarding very important question, but doesn't seem to care about the possibility of their untimely death at the hands of a very powerful being who's definitely much stronger than the Slayer...

[Halting Hex]

Well, Buffy doesn't tell Spike or Dawn this, but she and Joyce know that Shiny McWhiny is the one Borificus is after.  It's natural Buffy would take special precautions for her, as opposed to the others.

Of course, if Glory didn't act more like the brainsuckee than a brainsucker, she might puzzle out why little sis is getting such special protection, but…

[lembergwatcher]

Quote

NIGEL: It's an exhaustive examination of your procedures and abilities. We'll observe your training, talk to your friends...
BUFFY: Talk to my friends?
TRAVERS: Yes, we understand you're still taking civilians out on patrols.
BUFFY: Oh, you've gotta be kidding me.

Wow, it took almost FIVE friggin' years for Quentin and the Council to finally notice. Congratulations, pals! Although I wonder when exactly did Giles enlighten his (former) colleagues on the issue or did they have to find out everything by themselves? And judging from their reaction (or lack thereof, except for Travers' words and then Lydia's concern for the "children"), that wasn't really a big deal. Because otherwise repercussions for violating one of Council's taboos should have followed immediately. Even though Giles may have omitted some details in his reports from '97 to '99, I kinda doubt Wesley did (although I may be wrong). Besides, Rupert's lies could have been easily revealed if Travers or anyone else from the Council decided to pay a visit before Cruciamentum.

In The Harvest G-Man raised no objections to W/X participation in the fight despite the lack of super powers, experience, knowledge and blah-blah-blah. It took three years for him and Buffy to realize the whole thing can be dangerous for "civillians" (the gang decided to keep Xander out in The Zeppo while Buffy did the same with Willow in the following ep). Both Kendra and especially Wesley were surprised after learning about Buffy not fighting alone at first, but then proved to be totally ok with said fact. From Bad Girls until the season's finale Wesley was shown amazingly tolerant with Willow, Xander, Oz and Cordelia not only being there or helping (Consequences, Enemies) but actually interfering in the affairs (Choices).  Either Watcher # 2 was smart enough not to report X/W/C/O existence to the Council (the way he covered for Giles who, in turn, acted like a dick towards Wesley all the time) or the guys in London weren't so narrow minded and allowed such thing to happen.

So what has changed? Why all of a sudden Buffy's friends were even mentioned twice?.. Why wasting time on interviewing and stuff? What exactly did the Watchers expect to learn after talking to W/X/A/T?

Edited July 18, 2019 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

Intimidation, pure and simple.  Remember, Buffy quit the Council, 20 months past, and relations are not exactly on the best footing.  Now that Giles has come a-begging, Travers wants to keep him (and Buffy) off-balance.

I mean, where do you think Gwendolyn Post, Mrs., learned how to do this sort of thing?

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎6‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 12:09 AM, Halting Hex said:

Well, Buffy doesn't tell Spike or Dawn this, but she and Joyce know that Shiny McWhiny is the one Borificus is after.  It's natural Buffy would take special precautions for her, as opposed to the others.

Of course, if Glory didn't act more like the brainsuckee than a brainsucker, she might puzzle out why little sis is getting such special protection, but…

Because she's the little sister, that's why the monks made her one. 

On ‎6‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 9:39 PM, lembergwatcher said:

I know an empty threat when I hear one. I wonder what stopped the goddess almighty from going through with her threat and actually killing everyone Buffy held dear? 

  Reveal spoiler

The worst things Glory did were torturing Spike, brainsucking Tara and nearly sacrificing Dawn but only after learning Buffy's lil sis' origins and not to fulfill her promise.

Since when are the gods begging and making idle threats?

Funny thing: after hearing Glory's words Buffy appoints Spike to be her mom's and sister's bodyguard but apparently does nothing to protect (or to warn, at least) Xander, Willow, Tara, Anya and Giles. She's so "concerned" with her friends' well-being she chose to keep W/X/A/T in the dark regarding very important question, but doesn't seem to care about the possibility of their untimely death at the hands of a very powerful being who's definitely much stronger than the Slayer...

Because Giles is the unusual Watcher as Buffy is the unusual Slayer. 

[lembergwatcher]

15 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Intimidation, pure and simple.

Intimidation is good. Then again, why wait for two years? The Council should have tried some good old intimidation after Giles the X-Watcher told Quentin he wasn't going anywhere in the aftermath of Cruciamentum or after Wesley reported the whole going behind his back with Angelus and Faith thing (Enemies). Something like: "It pains me to say this, Rupert, but if you won't cooperate and do as we say, and pack your fucking bags, and get back to England, all of Miss Summers young civilian friends will die a horrible death. Now be a good boy and move!"

[Halting Hex]

28 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

Intimidation is good. Then again, why wait for two years?

Because Giles just came begging, tweed cap in hand.  So now Travers & co. have reason to believe they have the upper hand, and can regain full control over Buffy.  Whereas before they weren't too sure that offering to (finally!) invite Giles to their shindigs in the Cotswolds would do the trick.

[lembergwatcher]

Quote

TRAVERS: You know what sort of resources we command.

Well, I'd like to know myself. I don't think Collins, Weatherby & Smith (aka Watchers Council Special Operations Team) is something you can threaten even spineless Giles with, Quentin. Actualy I can't recall the Council using any of those so-called resources to assist their colleagues Giles & Wesley in the past. What those resources are for then?.. 

[Keywestclubkid]

Joyce and Spike bonding over Timmy the doll and Ethan’s wedding on Passion’s while hiding out in Spikes crypt always kills me

[Halting Hex]

Hmm, wouldn't think Spike would have much tolerance for dolls after putting up with Dru's fixation on Miss Edith.  But perhaps he's evolved.  An unexpected side effect of the Sodding™ Chip?

Now that I think about it, perhaps the reason that Drusilla gave Spike such a tough time in Brasil (as seen in the flashback in Fool for Love) is because he left Miss Edith behind when he hastily departed during the fight in Becoming, Part 2 ?   (We see the doll amongst the unclaimed property in Beauty and the Beasts.)  Leave a girl's favorite toy behind, where any passing Slayer might grab it, and no wonder she's chasing chaos demons the moment her spine heals.

Live and learn, Spikey; live and learn.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Halting Hex