All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[trxr4kids]

 

 

 

For me, not being able to find Sam shows just how little he knew how to find Sam.  He didn't really know Sam well enough to figure  it out  and the whole purpose for Dean finding Sam so quickly was that he did know his brother inside and out. 

 I pretty much agree with everything that you said but in regards to Bobby, he also left Dean alone in AHBL after Dean stated that he had given enough and didn't care if the world burned. So for me IMO Bobby never really cared about or knew Dean any more than he did Sam.

 

ETA:  Those post brother death situations are why I've never bought Bobby as being more like a father than John. Say what you will about John but he wouldn't (IMO) leave either of his boys alone under those circumstances, if only because he would have known that they would go off the deep end.

Edited September 14, 2014 by trxr4kids

[SueB]

 

NOT AT ALL. I was mocking myself!

Well the shoe fit me pretty well, so no need to apologize. :)

[AwesomO4000]

 I pretty much agree with everything that you said but in regards to Bobby, he also left Dean alone in AHBL after Dean stated that he had given enough and didn't care if the world burned. So for me IMO Bobby never really cared about or knew Dean any more than he did Sam.

 

I'll have to rewatch that, but I remembered it as Dean insisting that he wanted to be alone right then and rejecting Bobby's overtures to help. It appeared to me that time had been shown to have passed, and now Bobby was coming back with food and trying to get Dean to eat. There was also something happening that they weren't sure about and research needed to be done. Before leaving, Bobby let Dean know that if Dean needed him, Dean knew where Bobby was.

 

Now if Bobby never checked up on Dean again after he was done looking into what was going on, then I would agree with you, but we never had time to get to that point, so I'm not sure. Bobby probably should have stayed anyway, but I thought I remembered that he was concerned about what the demon was up to and thought he needed to go look into it. I'll have to watch that part more carefully next time.

 

ETA:  Those post brother death situations are why I've never bought Bobby as being more like a father than John. Say what you will about John but he wouldn't (IMO) leave either of his boys alone under those circumstances, if only because he would have known that they would go off the deep end.

 

In some instances I might agree with you on this point, but then I remember "Faith" and Sam desperately asking for John's help to save Dean and John not showing, and Dean in "Home" again desperately asking for John's help with what was going on with Sam and John not making contact, and I'm not so sure. John did come through of sorts in the end in "In My Time of Dying," but for me that doesn't excuse what he did in "Faith" or "Home."

[trxr4kids]

 

I'll have to rewatch that, but I remembered it as Dean insisting that he wanted to be alone right then and rejecting Bobby's overtures to help. It appeared to me that time had been shown to have passed, and now Bobby was coming back with food and trying to get Dean to eat. There was also something happening that they weren't sure about and research needed to be done. Before leaving, Bobby let Dean know that if Dean needed him, Dean knew where Bobby was.

 Dean just watched his brother be stabbed in the back so it would be understandable IMO for him to be emotional or irrational.

 

ETA: the timelime: It seemed to me IMO that the dialogue between Dean and Bobby took place within 48 hrs of Sam's death. I could be wrong(read really wrong) but that was my impression.

 

In some instances I might agree with you on this point, but then I remember "Faith" and Sam desperately asking for John's help to save Dean and John not showing, and Dean in "Home" again desperately asking for John's help with what was going on with Sam and John not making contact, and I'm not so sure.

Point taken, I think I've even brought up Home and Faith in the past as an example of John's dickishness.

Edited September 14, 2014 by trxr4kids

[AwesomO4000]

Dean just watched his brother be stabbed in the back so it would be understandable IMO for him to be emotional or irrational.

 

I completely agree, and I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't. I was just saying that Bobby also had other concerns, and I always assumed that eventually he'd be back to Dean once he checked everything out concerning the YED. But I agree that Bobby did leave somewhat abruptly.

[Aeryn13]

Personally, I did not see Sam as a "victim" in Season 4. Just because he and the show made himself out to be one of Dean`s terribly "bullying" or something doesn`t make it so for me. I don`t care if he loved sycophantic Ruby because it appealed to him, he has no right to expect that behaviour from anyone else. And pitch a fit if he didn`t get it.

 

One of my most favourite moments from the Season 4 Finale was Ruby revealing herself and Sam realizing everything. I really wanted another line readong of "I`m stronger, smarter, better" THEN. HA.

 

As for the fight at the end of Levee, I`m not sure I would call Dean a victim here either but I do call him in the right to not want to run after and crawl back to Sam. If Sam had choked Bobby, we all know what Bobby`s response would have been, tactics be damned. So it`s rich for him to act like Dean is a whiny loser when he gets his dainty knickers in a twist when it`s HMI on the receiving end of Winchester-violence. 

 

 

[mertensia]

My problem with Bobby's speech in season 5 about always pushing Sam is that nowhere - Nowhere- does he acknowledge that Dean was pushed too. And for longer and harder than Sam ever was. Dean was just as much a child at first as Sam. Bobby acts like Dean was 30 when Mary died.

[7kstar]

 I pretty much agree with everything that you said but in regards to Bobby, he also left Dean alone in AHBL after Dean stated that he had given enough and didn't care if the world burned. So for me IMO Bobby never really cared about or knew Dean any more than he did Sam.

 

ETA:  Those post brother death situations are why I've never bought Bobby as being more like a father than John. Say what you will about John but he wouldn't (IMO) leave either of his boys alone under those circumstances, if only because he would have known that they would go off the deep end.

I guess we'll just disagree about some things.  I know family members that say they are close and then are totally surprised when that family member finally reveals a secret that they had been hiding for a long time, such as religious beliefs.  So I don't know that anyone could find Dean if he really didn't want to be found.  We'll see the answer to that this season I think.

 

Bobby leaving Dean doesn't show he doesn't care.  He tried but Dean wouldn't be budged and at that point a major threat had just happened and Bobby knew he couldn't help Dean and take care of the larger threat.  He also didn't realize how much Dean hated himself.  So he never dreamed in  his wildest thoughts that Dean would repeat his Dad's mistake and make a deal. 

 

Also at this point Bobby wasn't planned on coming back but as the fans began to really love Jim Beaver, they started changing things to keep him around.  Being someone's favorite also doesn't mean that you like that person way over the other.  I have two nephews that I'm closer to, because we talk.  Who's my favorite might switch depending on our connection from time to time, but I don't dislike my other nephews and niece less, I'm just not as connected.  Dean and Bobby shared things, cars, hunting that Sam didn't really take an interest in. 

 

Also I never had a problem with Bobby throwing ball with Dean as I didn't see it as he did it all the time but just this once or on occasion he understood that Dean needed an outlet, a way to escape if you will.

 

My last point and then I'll shut up,  This post was taken in a direction I didn't plan.  How many times have what the writers created also spouted up issues that they had never intended or thought about.  That's why I don't use every example as this is the truth, because I think just like Jensen and Jared can't remember everything they portrayed in the series, neither can the writers.  It's why I liked Jared's statement, something to this effect, "The fans forgive us and keep watching and we really appreciate that."

[Aeryn13]

 

Being someone's favorite also doesn't mean that you like that person way over the other.

 

For me it does. It`s exactly what I mean when I declare something or someone my favourite, that I like that or them way above something or someone else. Of course that also means I`m way more lenient and all-around nicer to and with them, Again, because they are my favourite.

 

That`s why I find Bobby`s claim of Dean being his favourite ludicrous. At least by that point in the show when he said it. He spend so much time analy massaging Sam by then, I thought it silly for the show to not outright admit it. 

[DittyDotDot]

I know have a largely unpopular opinion about Bobby, but I really don't think he was all that and I think it's sad that they couldn't have just left Bobby as the curmudgeonly 'uncle'.

 

I'm not sure it's an unpopular opinion and I agree with you on some level. I do have issues with Bobby becoming foster daddy in the narrative only because it takes the punch out of some of the story from S1 and S2, but I always believe he cared about both Sam and Dean and I totally believe Dean was his favorite. Actually, it always seems to me he saw Sam as some sort of foreign entity and didn't know what to think of him, but seemed to have more of a kinship with Dean, but he still cared about both of them, IMO.

 

Personally, I always thought Bobby was best as hunter's helper and was fine with him becoming more important in their lives after John died, but don't care for how they tried to retroactively make him foster daddy. I understand that characters can change and morph depending on story needs and actor availability and such, and I can go with a lot of it, but it's hard for me to line up some of the earlier seasons with this particular change up. It's such a shame because I always liked the character of Bobby, but wasn't always thrilled with how they used him is all--like say, the 500 thousand and 52 times they've brought him back from the dead. Nothing like ruining an almost perfect exit, show.

 

So, yeah, I think they screwed the pooch with Bobby in some ways, but I still think he cared for both of them in different ways.

[AwesomO4000]

Actually, it always seems to me he saw Sam as some sort of foreign entity and didn't know what to think of him, but seemed to have more of a kinship with Dean, but he still cared about both of them, IMO.

 

This was pretty much my interpretation as well, and it more explains how Sam could walk around soulless and still have contact with Bobby where Bobby wasn't even aware of it. Otherwise I would find a supposed connection between them difficult to buy.

 

What you describe is actually how I think quite a few of the lesser characters in the show - most recently Charlie and Garth - also see Sam. It's just something in the way they often talk to him in generalizations and semi-pep talk platitudes ("If anyone can do it, you can.") that gives me this impression sometimes. I think it used to be the same for Castiel, but I think more recently, Castiel and Sam are finally connecting a bit more when they interact.

[Aeryn13]

 

most recently Charlie and Garth - also see Sam. It's just something in the way they often talk to him in generalizations and semi-pep talk platitudes ("If anyone can do it, you can."

 

I think that is just the writerly shortcut for conveying to the audience how special and amazing Sam is. Bobby used to be that mouthpiece character. Now Garth and Charlie are around and when a lesson is delivered on how great the brotherly bond is, DEAN is the one who will hear it "oh, you are so lucky to have Sam". Never the other way around.

 

This show prioritizes "tell" over "show" actually. And that is what most surface audience members take away from it. Dean is seen as stupid because he is often called stupid. The few and far remarks that he does read, actual books, or that he managed this or that fall by the wayside. Did he make stupid blunders occassionaly? Yes.

 

Meanwhile Sam has made just as many and just as stupid blunders but enough people in enough episodes harp on his smarts and his OMG!he-went-to-Stanford-ness. Because the world is easily divided into people going to College = intelligent and people not going to College = braindead.

 

Also, "the brain and the brawn" or "Sam is the smart one". I wonder for every writer or fans who expresses that, in your group of friends, are you the smart one - since there clearly can be only one Chosen One - or are you one of the dumb ones? And if you are, how do you cope with all of your dumb friends? How does the smart person in your group cope with your dumb self?

 

Put like that everyone immediately recognizes how ridiculous and limiting that worldview is but for fictional characters, it is seen as gospel truth. 

[catrox14]

I've been increasingly bothered by the shows dumbing down of Dean over the years.  He was just as smart as Sam in s1. He has the mind of an engineer to a degree considering he made his own EMF detector thingy and rebuilt Baby twice.  Back in s5 he even mentioned which Vonnegut he liked so we know he likes to read or did at one point in time.

 

But something happened after s6 and Dean was made to look more and more stupid. I loved in s8 when he bought a translation app for his phone and was so excited but then it bugged me because they had Sam look dumbfounded that Dean would be an app, as though at some point Dean became technophobic after you know using computers to hunt for like 10 years.  Of course he's not Ash or Charlie (and neither is Sam) but Dean has always been clever and managed to find ways to get things done. And don't even start me on the dumbing down of his pop culture knowledge.  Ugh. 

[DittyDotDot]

I generally chalk that up to the entire show dumbing down in recent years rather than only dumbing down Dean. But that's probably just the curmudgeon in me yelling at those damn kids on my lawn again. ;)

[AwesomO4000]

Meanwhile Sam has made just as many and just as stupid blunders but enough people in enough episodes harp on his smarts and his OMG!he-went-to-Stanford-ness.

 

 

If this show actually appeared to show a college education was something to be admired, that would mean something, but it doesn't. Generally it shows the opposite in many ways. Consider any episode set in a college setting and if any of those characters are actually portrayed as smart...  they aren't. There are partying frat boys and silly college girls. Most of Sam's "smarts" in the show have little to nothing to do with his college education and more to do with John's training and Dean's upbringing. Half the time when Sam is called smart, it's couched with a joke or with an insult about what a "nerd" he is.

 

DEAN is the one who will hear it "oh, you are so lucky to have Sam".

 

For me the unspoken part is "please deal with him, so I don't have to." Whenever they want to actually talk to someone or get advice, it is generally from Dean.

 

This show prioritizes "tell" over "show" actually.

 

I don't think this is necessarily true, but the show just as often tells us how "dumb" Sam is with characters reminding us all the time of Sam's bad choices. And in my opinion, Sam has been dumbed down right along with Dean - one good example is with Bobby saying that Castiel will have to "aim lower" in regards to Sam, so that Sam can understand a math principal, with the implication being that even with that dumbing-down, Sam's likely still not going to get it. Dean isn't the only one picked at for that kind of thing.

 

And this even includes the cultural stuff which they often mix up between writers - Bobby watches Star Trek DS9 but somehow still doesn't know the basic plotline of "Star Trek IV?" Even if he didn't see the movie, I'd find that surprising. (Sam was also clueless about the plot).

[SueB]

 

one good example is with Bobby saying that Castiel will have to "aim lower" in regards to Sam, so that Sam can understand a math principal

Having taken Master's classes in Astrodynamics, let me just share that the math Castiel was going to lay on Sam (series of partial differential equations) would primarily be accessible to Physics, Engineering, and Chemistry majors (and in their junior/senior years most likely).  Sam was pre-law.  So him saying "aim lower" would apply to most people on the planet.  It doesn't make Sam dumb. JMO YMMV.

 

I think they have done a decent job of showing that Sam and Dean are both plenty smart.  Not in the same way or about the same things but their raw intellect is better than most from my perspective. 

[AwesomO4000]

Having taken Master's classes in Astrodynamics, let me just share that the math Castiel was going to lay on Sam (series of partial differential equations) would primarily be accessible to Physics, Engineering, and Chemistry majors (and in their junior/senior years most likely).  Sam was pre-law.  So him saying "aim lower" would apply to most people on the planet.  It doesn't make Sam dumb. JMO YMMV.

 

I think they have done a decent job of showing that Sam and Dean are both plenty smart.  Not in the same way or about the same things but their raw intellect is better than most from my perspective. 

 

True, but apparently Bobby understood what Castiel was talking about since he was the one saying "aim lower."

 

But I agree it doesn't mean that Sam is necessarily unintelligent or was being shown as such. I was mainly pointing out that Dean is not necessarily singled out for all of the "how could he possibly know this" comments on he show and that such kinds of things - as with the inconsistent "Dean reads" vs "Dean reads?" type comments - vary from writer to writer and therefore don't represent a general opinion of the show overall.

 

A few poking fun at Dean comments doesn't mean to me that the show as a whole is saying that Dean is unintelligent, and the same goes for Sam.

[Aeryn13]

 

A few poking fun at Dean comments doesn't mean to me that the show as a whole is saying that Dean is unintelligent,

Since the Winchesters don`t have so much interaction with recurring characters or really any characters anymore other than quick drive-by interview scenes where they lie their asses off, it has abated a bit but in the earlier Seasons, not a single episode went by where someone didn`t denigrate Dean`s intelligence. And barely an episode went by where, in tandem, someone didn`t laud Sam`s superior intelligence. 

 

As late as Season 8, Singer himself invoked the "brain and brawn" analogy, dividing them up like this.

 

I think in general the show ain`t good at getting their supposed message across - thank God because mostly I hate what I see them wanting to get across - but in this case, they were pretty succesful. By now the characters have long since been stereotyped into "the smart one who went to College and is a walking, talking encyclopedia" and "the dumb, uncouth one who knows nothing". It has seeped into the ideas of who these characters are which IMO goes for writers now as well as the collective audience.

 

If they wanted to write against it, they would put in a tell, a clearly "oh see, he ain`t dumb after all" pointer scene for Dean. They could have done it by having the audience finding out that secretely, he could have gone to College, too, mabye engineering stuff, but decided against it. That`s the kind of thing fiction does to "sell" a character as smart because that is the kind of thing that is received by the audience at large. They don`t do this because they at best don`t care if the character is perceived as dumb, at worst they are snobby little elitists who actually believe bullshit like "brain and brawn" isn`t just something so simplistic only the dumbest of assholes actually believe in it.

[DittyDotDot]

I think it's been shown that Sam is book smart and Dean's just plain smart. In general, I think the show is trying to say that you don't have to go to college and read to be smart. They both get thrown into the dumbing down for plot purposes hole when necessary, but usually when it's pointed out that Dean didn't have the education that Sam did it's also shown that Dean finds the solution when it escaped those "schooled and learned" types. Just because other characters are surprised that Dean read a book, doesn't equate Dean actually being dumb, IMO. The quantity of books one reads is not at all an indicator of intelligence and I've never thought the show was trying to say that Sam was smarter than Dean or that Dean wasn't smart enough to go to college either, just that he never had the inclination to do so.

 

 

ETA: I somehow deleted part of one of my sentences when editing, it should read...Just because other characters are surprised that Dean read a book, doesn't equate Dean actually being dumb, IMO, but actually points out how narrow minded and foolish that character probably is in assuming that schooling=intelligence.

Edited September 15, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[trxr4kids]

Just to add my two cents for what it's worth... I think the show tells us that Sam is smart a lot but they show us he's an idiot often, I think the show tells us Dean is an idiot often but shows us he's smart a lot. I think they tell us Sam is selfless and empathetic but well he's done some shit, I think they tell us Dean is selfish and uncaring but were shown he's not more often. (ETA: Basically I agree with DittyDotDot, Awesom0400 and Aeryn13) It's pretty weird and I wonder if it's done deliberately to generate debate and interest in the fandom or if just shitty writing and show running or maybe a strange mix of the two.

 

One thing I've noticed that most of us seem to agree on is that the show in general has been dumbed down as a whole, relying on constant annoying monologues and boring sit and chat sessions. I've also noticed that fans primary debates used to be about which brother was the most awesome and now is primarily about which brother is the worst or did the worst thing. I have to hope that the PTB

didn't intend that but it's kinda hard when you hear or see commentary saying

next season we'll wonder who the biggest monster really is

 

Since I've already started my rant I may as well keep going, I want this show to wrap up with the same motto it started with, saving people, hunting things, the family business (they smiled and looked good while doing it too) not this angsty nonsense about how their cursed or poison and the world would've been better if not for them, it's a crap view point.

Edited September 15, 2014 by trxr4kids

[AwesomO4000]

...it has abated a bit but in the earlier Seasons, not a single episode went by where someone didn`t denigrate Dean`s intelligence.

I don't really remember this so much, myself, but I think part of some people's reactions to Dean were what I call the Columbo effect. More often in the early seasons, Dean was not above "playing dumb" or more likely playing "one of the guys" to his advantage. Often when there's a comment to a civilian about monsters not being real from one of them, it's from Dean - I just caught another one in my rewatch of "I Know What You Did..." (paraphrase) "She was talking about demons and monsters? That's just crazy talk." So it's all part of Dean's fitting in, "I'm one of you guys" vibe that he's so good at, then like Columbo - of whom many characters often openly questioned his intelligence - it's usually shown to be a ruse and/or Dean's idea was smart... example: the peanut M&M's Dean was acting all dufus about in "Wendigo" and the person in peril questioned, but she later found out and admitted that they were "better than bread crumbs," and the M&Ms turned out to be what saved everyone's asses and became little bitty, brightly colored indicators of "see Dean is smart". So I disagree that the show is trying to "tell" us that Dean is stupid and that the "show" part just isn't matching up. For me, it's similar to saying that on Columbo, the show must think Columbo is an idiot, because people often tell him he is, when from the "show" part we know that this isn't true. It's just that on Supernatural, they have two main characters and they have to walk a line between outright saying that they believe college education is pretty much pretentious and overrated - which I see evidence of in the show as well - and not, because they have characters with two different types of intelligence. If the show sides with any, in my opinion, it's usually that Dean's actually smarter and he's just too cool for school whereas Sam knows a lot of things, but they are just as often frivolous and useless as not. Miles, as always, vary.

 

If they wanted to write against it, they would put in a tell, a clearly "oh see, he ain`t dumb after all" pointer scene for Dean.

 

Which, in my opinion, they do. In addition to the M&Ms type indicators of know-how smarts scenes I mentioned above, they've included straight up intelligence scenes as well. The one off the top of my head was where Dean and Chuck were talking about Kurt Vonnegut novels and Dean asked Chuck which one his dream was more like, citing two different Kurt Vonnegut novels with at least one not being the usual Slaughterhouse 9 - type read in high school. Obviously for Dean to have read different Vonnegut novels and understood and remembered the different plotlines / themes / atmosphere / etc. that were unique to each, and in addition knew the third novel that Chuck actually was referring to and referenced, would indicate that Dean has intelligence. And of course Sam was surprised Dean had read the books, because in the past Dean likely made fun of Sam for reading the same types of books, because that's what Dean likes to do.

 

It's not necessarily everyone else's fault that Dean likes to "play dumb" sometimes - sometimes you reap what you sow, so to speak - but in my opinion, the show does put in these indicators that Dean is actually smarter than he pretends to be... he just prefers a more "brawn" approach, because it is more hands on and Dean likes being hands on. For example after John's death, Sam preferred talking things out and discussing/analyzing his feelings and reactions - and for Sam, talking with Dean helped him - whereas Dean more wanted to work on or beat on the Impala.

 

For me it's why Sam and Dean used to work so well together. Dean is perfectly capable of doing research and is intelligent, he just prefers to be more hands on, and since Sam likes research, then good, Sam can do it. Sam is perfectly capable of taking charge if he has to - as in "All Hell..., Pt 1," but he'd generally prefer it if Dean was there to come up with a plan while he (Sam) looks into the details.  And neither approach, in my opinion, has been shown to be "better" than the other on the show - they are just different. The brothers used to understand their preferences and strengths more, in my opinion, and this is why they worked so well together in the past.

 

Edited to add:

It's pretty weird and I wonder if it's done deliberately to generate debate and interest in the fandom or if just shitty writing and show running or maybe a strange mix of the two.

 

I have an explanation, but it ain't pretty. For me, I suspect damage control. If they show one thing, but are concerned about what some fans will think, if they say another, then they've covered all the bases and made everyone "happy."

Edited September 15, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

 

The one off the top of my head was where Dean and Chuck were talking about Kurt Vonnegut novels and Dean asked Chuck which one his dream was more like, citing two different Kurt Vonnegut novels with at least one not being the usual Slaughterhouse 9 - type read in high school. Obviously for Dean to have read different Vonnegut novels and understood and remembered the different plotlines / themes / atmosphere / etc. that were unique to each, and in addition knew the third novel that Chuck actually was referring to and referenced, would indicate that Dean has intelligence.

 

To me, that was a stand-out scene because it really went against the norm. However, I would not at all be surprised if there was a scene in an episode these days where Sam has to explain to Dean who Vonnegut even is. Because a) the writers have no idea what happened before and b) that`s how the characters are coded, if there is "brainyness" to be shown, it would be Sam and if a character is the dumbboard for the audience, it is Dean. Nevermind, that even the audience could IMO never be as dumb as the writers seem to assume.  

[AwesomO4000]

Enh, they do the same thing to Sam nowadays...

 

In addition to the "Sam isn't a brain at math" scene with Bobby that I mentioned earlier, they recently had the scene where Dean has to explain to Sam that Metatron is not Megatron the transformer, which one would think Sam would know that they weren't dealing with a transformer, because duh.

[catrox14]

I don't always know whether to interpret the lack of intelligence jokes as jokes or actual character traits.  In some early episodes they did make Dean a bit less intelligent than Sam IMO just to make the boys different. I think it was easier and lazier to say "smart one" vs "tough one" to differentiate and to define "college boy" vs "working boy".   But then thankfully that changed rather quickly in s1 with Dean's EMF detector.  And they continued to show that each brother could be both brain and brawn depending on the situation, with Sam leaning towards research and Dean towards on the fly problem solving of which both are necessary to be good hunters.

 

I really don't think Sam was thought of as unintelligent but that he made mistakes because he was misguided, made bad choices, trusted the wrong people because he was being misled or was soulless so many things were forgiven and he was a bit lost, especially in s4. But even then I don't think it was being presented as Sam being unintelligent. Even the most intelligent people do dumb things if the right (wrong?) situation arose. 

 

I do feel like some of the jokes at Dean's expense in s6 through s9 were bizarrely aimed Dean's pop culture knowledge and being well read or being crass. Of course Dean would play dumb at times because that set  up the antagonists to underestimate him, but that's not what I mean. Some of the things Dean was dumb about just made zero sense given what we already know he knows.  Maybe dumbing down is the wrong word but recharacterizing him as being not as pop culture savvy as he has always been is bothersome. I guess maybe they make Sam and Dean less smart because it moves a bad plot forward and characterization be damned.

 

If bad decision making under stress, etc is the hallmark of being unintelligent well I guess Dean takes the booby prize because the dumbest thing he's ever done is trust Crowley and look where that got him. 

 

To the point of Bobby telling Cas to aim lower I thought was Bobby telling him that no one would understand what Cas was talking about including Bobby but I totally can see how that would be viewed as an slam on Sam. 

 

ETA: I thought the Metatron vs Megatron joke was a nod to the audience who was probably asking the same thing and was not intended as a discounting of Sam's pop culture knowledge. I know was was like "Why is a Transformer working for God" because I had never heard of Metatron except in Dogma and I didn't remember him anyway.

 

They made the joke too long. It would have been better if they had it be a setup and one liner like they usually do with Dean's jokes.

 

Castiel -“This is the handwriting of Metatron.”

Dean: "Oh that's just great. Now Transformers are dicks, too!"

 

The joke acknowledges the audiences confusion about Metatron vs Megatron and allows for Dean's disdain towards angels. And of course Dean would make the pop culture joke and we would all know that Dean is not actually confusing a Transformer with the Scribe of God and it's at no one's expense. It's always bad to overwrite a good joke.

Edited September 15, 2014 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

To the point of Bobby telling Cas to aim lower I thought was Bobby telling him that no one would understand what Cas was talking about including Bobby but I totally can see how that would be viewed as an slam on Sam.

 

Bobby jerked his head and eyes in Sam's direction as he said it, which is why I thought it was assumed that Bobby understood what it was that Castiel was saying, but that he assumed that Sam wouldn't. I'm not saying this is necessarily a slam on Sam per se, since I have an MS in science and I wouldn't entirely understand the theory behind what Castiel was getting at, but it certainly wasn't a "Sam is super intelligent" moment either where they easily could have made it one.

 

And it certainly wasn't as bad as having Sam think that Dean was talking about a transformer when he mentioned Metatron - which while amusing, I admit, certainly was not a Sam is smart moment. If anything that was a Sam is missing some common sense brain cells moment.

 

I do feel like some of the jokes at Dean's expense in s6 through s9 were bizarrely aimed Dean's pop culture knowledge and being well read or being crass.

 

But there were other times during those seasons where Dean had pop-culture knowledge that others didn't - like the Star Trek IV thing - which I'm still surprised that Bobby and Sam didn't get the reference, and the implication was that Dean obviously had a better pop culture knowledge than Sam and Bobby had in that instance, so I think it varies from writer to writer. (That particular episode was Dabb and Loflin).

 

I really don't think Sam was thought of as unintelligent but that he made mistakes because he was misguided, made bad choices, trusted the wrong people because he was being misled or was soulless so many things were forgiven and he was a bit lost, especially in s4. But even then I don't think it was being presented as Sam being unintelligent.

 

Maybe not, but as with Dean, the writers are not above joking about it and/or pointing to it. A good example - Fritz (who I loved) from "The Real Ghostbusters." And in some ways this was brilliant, imo, and one of the reasons I love this episode (and this season).

 

During the question and answer period, Fritz snots about how was it not obvious that Ruby was a bad guy - and of course this is a reference to Sam, since we know that Dean knew this from the beginning - since to him (Fritz) it was so apparent. This has got to be a bit of a slam on Sam here, because there it is, obviously stated. But interestingly Fritz later on falls into the same kind of trap himself, assuming that the *sigh* "creepy children" are not real, so at the same time they have this jab at Sam, the episode is showing how easy it is to not see the obvious yourself when you aren't looking at it from the outside. As I said, to me, brilliant. And despite the season 5 ending - which in some ways I can see why people didn't like it even though in some ways I kinda loved it - I thought season 5 was really good at doing this kind of nuanced thing in their episodes and messages. What was on the surface wasn't always the entire story. There were layers which weren't as prominent - in my opinion - in some of the earlier seasons.

 

So I guess what I'm saying is, that even digs against characters aren't necessarily always what they appear to be on this show. There might be layers involved that aren't always apparent at first.

Edited September 15, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

Bobby jerked his head and eyes in Sam's direction as he said it, which is why I thought it was assumed that Bobby understood what it was that Castiel was saying, but that he assumed that Sam wouldn't. I'm not saying this is necessarily a slam on Sam per se, since I have an MS in science and I wouldn't entirely understand the theory behind what Castiel was getting at, but it certainly wasn't a "Sam is super intelligent" moment either where they easily could have made it one.

 

And it certainly wasn't as bad as having Sam think that Dean was talking about a transformer when he mentioned Metatron - which while amusing, I admit, certainly was not a Sam is smart moment. If anything that was a Sam is missing some common sense brain cells moment.

 

 

But there were other times during those seasons where Dean had pop-culture knowledge that others didn't - like theStar Trek IV thing - which I'm still surprised that Bobby and Sam didn't get the reference, and the implication was that Dean obviously had a better pop culture knowledge than Sam and Bobby had in that instance, so I think it varies from writer to writer. (That particular episode was Dabb and Loflin)

 

I didn't think the Star Trek thing was an insult to Sam and Bobby at all. Star Trek geeks are pretty particular and even in an annoying way at times. And I thought it was showing that Dean is a bigger geek than we ever knew and that he was being kind of a dick about it, lording it over Sam and Bobby. Then he was in turn mocked by Sam about the Clint Eastwood movies. And that back and forth lasted throughout the episode and don't think either brother was worse for wear. 

 

Frontierland is one of my all time favorite episode.  The boys in cowboy hats is forever wonderful to me.   

Edited September 15, 2014 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

I didn't think the Star Trek thing was an insult to Sam and Bobby at all. Star Trek geeks are pretty particular and even in an annoying way at times.

 

I didn't mean to imply that it was supposed to be making Sam and Bobby look bad - just that it was showing that Dean did in fact have pop culture knowledge. I am both a Star Wars and Star Trek watcher (though not a geek status fan like Sam is to Star Wars) and I thought that Star Trek IV with the whales and such was pretty well known, but I guess I could be wrong. But I'm weird, in that I often know the basic premises, etc. of many movies that I haven't even seen, just from conversations with other people or from having seen the trailers, so that's why I found it odd that Bobby and Sam didn't know the basic plot since that was a pretty well known movie for its time.

 

And I, too, love that episode. I love that season 6.5 through season 7 period in the show.

[7kstar]

I didn't mean to imply that it was supposed to be making Sam and Bobby look bad - just that it was showing that Dean did in fact have pop culture knowledge. I am both a Star Wars and Star Trek watcher (though not a geek status fan like Sam is to Star Wars) and I thought that Star Trek IV with the whales and such was pretty well known, but I guess I could be wrong. But I'm weird, in that I often know the basic premises, etc. of many movies that I haven't even seen, just from conversations with other people or from having seen the trailers, so that's why I found it odd that Bobby and Sam didn't know the basic plot since that was a pretty well known movie for its time.

 

And I, too, love that episode. I love that season 6.5 through season 7 period in the show.

Well if someone knows Star Trek the original, then they know Star Trek IV with the whales as it was consider the top one at it's time with the Wrath of Khan as the next one in line.  So it has to be that Bobby and Sam have only heard of Star Trek but don't really know anything about it.  But some of the pop culture I don't pay attention to as something else distracts me from that moment. 

 

I do wish they would go back to the different ways the brothers are smart because Dean isn't just muscle and he isn't dumb.  Sam can be smart but even smart people can be dumb about somethings sometime.

 

@SueB

 

I do like that Ruby uses the Dumbo analysis in this episode although I think it creates a great deal of LOL!Canon issues regarding Sam and Demon Blood.  I don't care for Genevieve's delivery of "I'm awesome" but the character is not wrong.  She really did pull off a masterful con operation. I like that the season ended with the two killing Ruby and then in such deep shit with Lucifer rising.

I guess my problem is, no she didn't.  It was too obvious that the only one she conned was Sam.  That he bought made me think he was really stupid or not thinking with his brain.  The only thing I liked about Lucifer Rising was Dean and Cas and Zach taunting Dean.  Of course Dean killing Ruby was AWESOME! but I kept waiting for Sam to see the light but of course he was too dumb to figure it out. 

 

I think the problem I really had was that the audience was supposed to be surprised by Ruby and well that had been revealed in Season 3???   Why was it suppose to be a surprise?  Nothing they did, fooled me...maybe it's just me.    But it's one of the reason that I really think that Genevieve failed as an actress but it could be the writing and directing that really is more to blame.  To be honest I haven't seen her do anything else.  I guess that sounds harsh.  ;(

Edited September 16, 2014 by 7kstar

[DittyDotDot]

I think the problem I really had was that the audience was supposed to be surprised by Ruby and well that had been revealed in Season 3???   Why was it suppose to be a surprise?  Nothing they did, fooled me...maybe it's just me.    But it's one of the reason that I really think that Genevieve failed as an actress but it could be the writing and directing that really is more to blame.  To be honest I haven't seen her do anything else.  I guess that sounds harsh.  ;(

 

I'm of the opinion it was a total writing fail. I was sure from the moment they introduced the character in S3 that she was up to no good and never trusted her. I thought both actresses did okay with what they were given to work with, but the entire character was such a cliché that I couldn't understand how Sam believed anything she said in both S3 and S4.

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Heaven an Hell" episode thread:

 

So I think Dean whilst badly damaged and on the path to demonity, he was not there yet. That's why I could buy his ability to survive it for 30 years before breaking and meting out his own terror on others...  What bugs me more is why didn't Sam become a demon since he spent 100 years in the cage with Lucifer and Michael according to Cas. Shouldn't his being re-ensouled have made him a demon instead of cracking up like he did once the wall broke?

I always assumed it was because Sam wasn't really in hell proper, and it wasn't Lucifer's goal to make Sam a demon. Lucifer didn't like demons, and hadn't become one himself entirely while he was down in the cage. He still had to follow the rules of an "angel" and called himself a fallen angel.

 

Also demons seem to have at least some kind of "power." It didn't appear to me that that was what Lucifer wanted for Sam either. I think he enjoyed playing with his "mouse" and wouldn't want him to be able to roar in any way at all and/or wouldn't want his mouse to not be able to feel the emotional torture I'm thinking was his favorite for Sam (and would explain Sam's more crazy/ emotionally damaged nature). A demon likely doesn't care as much without their humanity, and so therefore tormenting a demon Sam wouldn't be as much fun. Lucifer might've even actively kept Sam from turning demon for just those reasons. Demon = expendable/dirt and no fun for Lucifer to torment.

 

From what I could see, Lucifer was weird that way - at the same time he thought that people were crap, he wanted Sam to like him, so he likely wanted Sam to like (maybe even love) him at the same time he wanted to torture Sam... maybe even like being tortured. The "interaction" Sam had with his hallucination Lucifer in season 7 seemed to imply this to me, especially Sam's remark about not having anything left to lose, and so that's why Lucifer was maybe "giving" Sam something (the current situation) so he could take it away. "I think this is my best torture yet." Likely that wouldn't work on a demon who wouldn't likely care as much.

[catrox14]

Ah. That's a good explanation. I guess I think of Lucifer as being a demon but I see your point.

 

Hmmm I wonder since Dean had been vessel-worthy before does that maybe give him even more power as a demon with the MoC than any other demons?

[AwesomO4000]

Based on the show canon with the angels in charge being concerned about special "bloodlines," my guess would be yes. Otherwise the angels wouldn't care about getting certain bloodlines together. And if Dean is Michael's preferred vessel - and season 9 showed us what can happen to non-suitable vessels - I'm suspecting that yes, there's something about Dean which might make him different from the average demon - it could be perhaps that an average demon could not even handle having the mark of Cain.

 

And with Sam, in addition to the bloodlines, there was also the added factor of Azazel's blood, which God detox or not, I'm suspecting still had an influence, since Lucifer was convinced that supposedly only Sam was strong enough to be his true vessel without breaking down. Likely that would mean that if Sam became a demon, Sam would also likely be potentially at least a bit stronger than your average demon. Of course Lucifer would be stronger still, but with Michael also around, I suspect Lucifer wouldn't want to have a demon Sam around to take any chances (and as I said, potentially not care as much about Lucifer's emotional tortures) and would prefer him "human" as long as possible.

[trxr4kids]

From Supernatural Wiki This Song Remains The Same: Just as Anna is about to kill Mary, the Archangel Michael, having possessed John's body, enters the room and burns Anna to death. He reveals that Cain and Abel are the brothers' ancestors and that their destiny as Michael and Lucifer's true vessels has been set since those ancient times.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

My assumption based on that episode has always been that only someone of their bloodline could take the mark just like only someone of their bloodline could become the true vessels. I discount Adam entirely because he wasn't a true vessel, I'm guessing Michael wasn't at full capacity since he settled, which is probably why he got a hell trip.

[catrox14]

More SPN continuity fail.

 

When Dean met Cain he should have said  'What's up great, great, great, great,great, great,great, great,great, great,great, great,great, great,great, great,great, great,great, great,great, great,great, great,great, great,great, great,great, great,great, great,great, great,great, great etc...............grandpa" .

 

Sometimes this show just ...I don't even know. Like did they even mention that the lineage was there? I know Sam was researching it later...but ugh...now I am actively annoyed that they didn't ever say anything about that.

Edited September 17, 2014 by catrox14

[trxr4kids]

I kinda snickered when Sam researched it using what appeared to be Google, since I couldn't figure out what he thought he'd find that he hadn't already known. I mean seriously, they couldn't have had him pull obscure books from the LOL, the same place that they found the demon cure film footage, much more believable if you ask me, it makes no sense at all.

[DittyDotDot]

Unfortunately for me, the answer to the mystery and therefore the explanation for Sam's motivations also wasn't clear. At the same time I think that they wanted to be showing that Sam's behavior - like we saw in this episode - was due to Sam being affected by his addiction, they were also giving entirely opposite messages in the end. In "Lucifer Rising" we get Ruby's

Dumbo speech

which seemed to be saying that the blood aaddicition

had nothing to do with Sam's behavior, that it was just all Sam and his choices

- which in my opinion contradicts the addiction being shown to affect Sam's behavior. So which one is it? In trying to have it both ways, I think they left me with the feeling in hindsight that the behavior they were showing from Sam here was now "just Sam" and that's what I really dislike and thought was damaging to Sam's character.

 

Personally, I didn't think Ruby's speech was saying that Sam could kill Lilith without the demon blood and/or that the demon blood didn't do something to him physically, but that he got there on his own. He made the choices, she didn't force him, she didn't make him do anything he didn't want to do. She presented half-truths at times, but he chose to drink the demon blood and he chose to ignore Dean and Bobby and Pamela and whoever when they told him he was walking a dark road. I think he definitely needed the demon blood to be strong enough to kill Lilith, but he didn't need to kill Lilith; he chose to. Does that make sense?

Edited September 22, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[Aeryn13]

Didn`t Ruby pretty much outright say this "you never needed the feather to fly, it was you and your choices and you chose right (well, in Ruby`s eyes) every time".

 

I know Kripke confirmed that this was the meaning later on, it just didn`t come out so clearly in the dialogue. If only they had followed that train of thought "Sam can`t blame his behaviour on the demon blood" and dealt with actual introspection and redemption for the character. But then they switched it to "but the one Sam can blame for his behaviour is Dean".

 

So basically, they discounted their supernatural excuse - which they could have used - and swapped it out with "Dean was mean". Guess he was more powerful than the demon blood for sure. And all that while being weak and pathetic, according to Sam in Season 4. So he was a weak dictator, then who simultenaously couldn`t hack it and held all the power. And Sam simultaneously was stronger, smarter, better and buillied and subdued.

 

As soon as they started that, I knew Season 5 was gonna be shit. I mean, Fallen Crapols was the template for how the Season would go. And this time, there wasn`t a writer`s strike to save Dean`s character from both blame-ville and story.oblivion. 

[AwesomO4000]

Personally, I didn't think Ruby's speech was saying that Sam could kill Lilith without the demon blood and/or that the demon blood didn't do something to him physically, but that he got there on his own. He made the choices, she didn't force him, she didn't make him do anything he didn't want to do. She presented half-truths at times, but he chose to drink the demon blood and he chose to ignore Dean and Bobby and Pamela and whoever when they told him he was walking a dark road. I think he definitely needed the demon blood to be strong enough to kill Lilith, but he didn't need to kill Lilith; he chose to. Does that make sense?

 

I agree that he needed the demon blood to destroy Lilith and fuel his powers. His physical withdrawals and his "shorting out" when he was low on demon blood wouldn't make much sense to me otherwise. I took it though that, as you said, the blood wasn't really affecting his judgement - and since for me, the things he said to Dean in "Sex and Violence" don't fall into the physical category, that would imply to me that they didn't have much to do with Sam being "wrong" due to demon blood, so if Sam saying those things was what the episode was trying to show, it then took that back in "Lucifer Rising" and said "nope that was Sam." And that for me means that having Sam say those things was not there for plot purposes or to illustrate Sam's "wrongness," because what they were now saying in "Lucifer Rising" was that that was Sam just being an asshole, so it was more charcater assassination than showing Sam behaving "wrong". So, yeah I retroactively hate that.

 

Personally though, I think that it was shown that the demon blood did somewhat affect at least Sam's confidence and arrogance - I look at "Swan Song" for that - but that would only impact the "smarter and better hunter" comment. There would still be no excuse for the "you're weak" and the "boo hoo." So still hate.

 

I know Kripke confirmed that this was the meaning later on, it just didn`t come out so clearly in the dialogue. If only they had followed that train of thought "Sam can`t blame his behaviour on the demon blood" and dealt with actual introspection and redemption for the character. But then they switched it to "but the one Sam can blame for his behaviour is Dean".

 

For me, considering that except for, maybe, that one "Fallen Idols" episode - and I still don't see Dean being blamed there even by Sam - every other episode from season 5 before that ("Sympathy...", "Good, God..." and "Free to Be...") and after ("I Believe," "Sam Interrupted," "99 problems," "Point of No Return," and "Two Minutes to Midnight" at the least) that mentions anything about that all had Sam and other characters - including Dean - blaming Sam for his choices in various ways and consistently. It was pretty much a theme of season 5, so I'm not sure how one episode is supposed to override all of the other episodes both before and after that are saying something completely different. That doesn't make sense story-wise to me.

 

And anything Kripke might say about Dean supposedly having to accept Sam for who he is blah blah in his commentaries to me more looks like "damage control" and has nothing to do with what I saw on my screen - which is the only story in my opinion that counts.

[DittyDotDot]

I agree that he needed the demon blood to destroy Lilith and fuel his powers. His physical withdrawals and his "shorting out" when he was low on demon blood wouldn't make much sense to me otherwise. I took it though that, as you said, the blood wasn't really affecting his judgement - and since for me, the things he said to Dean in "Sex and Violence" don't fall into the physical category, that would imply to me that they didn't have much to do with Sam being "wrong" due to demon blood, so if Sam saying those things was what the episode was trying to show, it then took that back in "Lucifer Rising" and said "nope that was Sam." And that for me means that having Sam say those things was not there for plot purposes or to illustrate Sam's "wrongness," because what they were now saying in "Lucifer Rising" was that that was Sam just being an asshole, so it was more charcater assassination than showing Sam behaving "wrong". So, yeah I retroactively hate that.

 

Personally though, I think that it was shown that the demon blood did somewhat affect at least Sam's confidence and arrogance - I look at "Swan Song" for that - but that would only impact the "smarter and better hunter" comment. There would still be no excuse for the "you're weak" and the "boo hoo." So still hate.

 

I think it was supposed to be equivalent to being on steroids. Steroids bulks you up and makes you stronger physically, but also messes with your judgement and usually makes people shorter tempered and much more full of themselves. I think that's why he's saying the things he does to Dean in Sex And Violence. Dean called him a liar and a bad brother which makes that short temper flair up and lash back at Dean.  I think it was meant to show us that Sam wasn't exactly himself and the one night stand was another way to point out this wasn't regular recipe Sam. But it was Sam to a certain degree, just more intense and heightened like one would be when roided up. 

 

I think the show was trying to say that even though Sam wasn't exactly himself and letting Lucifer out was an honest mistake that no one saw coming (except the angels and demons, of course) but he still made a lot of bad decisions to get to that final point and those are all on him. Personally, S4 never felt like character assignation to me, but it was confusing at times since they never really showed us enough of either brother's POV to make them work until the very end of the season--and even then Dean's was woefully underdeveloped, IMO. Nor did I ever feel like the show blamed any of Sam's decisions on Dean, but that's probably just me.

 

 

ETA: I don't mean to suggest that you should like the episode, just offering a different perspective that might allow you not to dislike Sam as much in this episode.

Edited September 22, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[trxr4kids]

Maybe I'm being too literal but I always thought that Ruby's whole Dumbo speech meant that Sam never needed the blood to use his powers, like Dumbo never needed the feather to fly. Jake and Ava both said that once they gave in they had all kinds of power. I get that Azazel was killed and Sam said his powers were gone, but were they, or did Sam think(wish) they were? Azazel infected Sam with his blood, that didn't go away just because he was killed IMO. So the powers were a part of Sam after age 6 months but dormant until age 22 for whatever reason, then once active always accessible (until purged by God of course, <huge eye roll>).

 I guess what I'm saying is Sam chose to drink the blood for whatever reasons and what he did as a result of it is on him but he would have had the same power regardless IMO. We can all sympathize with Sam for being manipulated by demons and angels in order to break the final seal, but it's not like anyone tortured him into doing it.

[DittyDotDot]

Whether you believe Sam was affected by the demon blood or not, we're saying the same thing. Sam got there on his own. He made the choices and chose to ignore everyone's warnings. I don't excuse his behavior simply because he was roided up. He willingly put the drug in his body, he gets to reep the consequences.

 

I'm of the opinion it did affect him or else I just can't make any sense of that detox. I guess you could argue he belived he was addicted and the detox was all built up in his mind, but flingjng omeself around a room is some serios believing. I always believed Yellow Eyes heightened their abilities when he was alive, but after he died Sam needed the demon blod to acess his abilities. 

[AwesomO4000]

I don't know if I can entirely buy the placebo affect though. There were times - and I think "the Rapture" was one of them - when Sam's powers would fail him and he couldn't kill a demon, because his powers fizzled out. Then he'd drink blood and be able to do it. Also that Castiel said that Sam would have to drink a bunch of blood in order to house Lucifer would say to me that the blood had to have some physical properties having to do with power.

 

I agree that Sam chose to drink the blood - and as I think DittyDotDot said in the "I Know What You Did..." thread, I wish they had shown us a flashback as to why Sam chose to do that since it would have been an important turning point - but I doubt he would have gone back to it or continued to do it unless it was necesary for his power-ups. And for me, I was okay with it, because such a decision for me would be in Sam's wheelhouse after "Mystery Spot." And I thought that Sam did have to live with the consequences and made sure that he made up for that mistake.
 

I always believed Yellow Eyes heightened their abilities when he was alive, but after he died Sam needed the demon blod to acess his abilities.

 

I agree. This is what I thought as well. It was similar to Jesse's power being "turned on" once Lucifer got out of the cage and was actually on earth.

 

ETA: I don't mean to suggest that you should like the episode, just offering a different perspective that might allow you not to dislike Sam as much in this episode.

 

Thank you. I appreciate the effort, and it does soften things a bit looking at it that way. But also don't worry. Despite my disliking Sam in this episode - and a few other similar points in season 4, I liked him very much again in season 5 and season 6.5 through 7. (I enjoyed Soulless Sam for a different reason but can't say that I liked him as a person.) Season 8? I won't go there. It's not good for my mental health and would only lead to potential rants and then a Shatner-worthy shout of "Carver!" Or perhaps a Jerry Seinfeld "Newman"- worthy grumble of "Carver" under my breath, depending on how drained I was afterwards. And no one wants that.  ; ) .

[trxr4kids]

Jeez I suck at stating my opinions...I think Sam had the power all along but didn't think he did. I think he was manipulated in to drinking demon blood to corrupt him, not to give him power. Does he bare responsibility for allowing himself to be manipulated into swilling demon blood, sure. However once he was under the influence/addicted responsibility becomes murkier for me IMO. I guess I'm saying I blame Sam for the initial choice and given that he was so horrified when he learned about being infected with demon blood, I have a really hard time figuring out why he drank it (presumably)willingly.

 

ETA: never mind I had 3 glasses of wine and it made sense at the time.

Edited September 23, 2014 by trxr4kids

[DittyDotDot]

I think you made perfect sense; it just doesn't line up with what I saw. I'm not saying your wrong or that your version isn't what the show intended; I just don't know how to line up, not just one, but two detoxes if it was all in Sam's head. So, to keep my brain from hurting, I have to believe it a little differently.

 

I still think we're basically on the same page. And, seriously, that first swig...I just don't know.

[catrox14]

The only way I can reconcile it is if the idea was the addiction was treated as something not physical but more psychological. That he really had the capacity but it was only when he had an excuse like the demon blood to exercise the power that he could. And that it was much more a psychological addiction than a physical one. If that makes any sense.

[DittyDotDot]

But if it didn't physically effect him then how was it physically winging him around the panic room while he detoxed? I can acept it being a placebo only up until it physically threw him around a room. I mean, I understand that our minds are very powerful, but tht streatches incredulity for me a bt too far.

 

What else yu got for me? ;)

[catrox14]

I think it could have been Sam's mind throwing himself around the room. Seriously. If he was Dumbo all along then it was never really the blood ever.

[AwesomO4000]

Also as I said above though - what about Castiel saying that Sam had to drink a bunch of blood so that he could house the more powerful Lucifer without being damaged? That wouldn't make any sense if it was just psychological. There had to be a physical component there that made Sam's body more powerful so that it could hold the now more powerful Lucifer. So for me, the blood had to be doing something physical or Sam wouldn't have had to drink it in order to say "yes." If it has that physical effect, I would guess that it could have other physical effects - like giving Sam the power to kill demons.

 

I don't think that it was coincidence that whenever Sam drank demon blood, he was then more powerful and able to kill demons much more easily. For me there had to be a reason he was addicted to the blood. I can't wrap my head around the idea that Sam wouldn't have tried to kill demons without the blood or that he would delude himself so much that he needed a placebo in order to do it - especially in season 5.

Edited September 23, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[SueB]

 

ETA: never mind I had 3 glasses of wine and it made sense at the time.

I'm jittery from about 82 cups of coffee (working a deadline), but I followed.

 

I'm closer to the blood=psychological viewpoint, but draining the nurse really chops my cheese so I want to believe he needed it. I think it's a mystery never to be resolved.

[catrox14]

 

what about Castiel saying that Sam had to drink a bunch of blood so that he could house the more powerful Lucifer without being damaged?

 

Castiel was wrong about a number of things. I think it's still open for interpretation.  Ultimately though I think Ruby was the one that really influenced Sam more than anything. She convinced him that he needed the blood and maybe he never really did, but HE thought he did. I think it was easier for Sam to believe the blood controlled him rather than admit he was the one in charge of his 'monster' skill.