All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[DittyDotDot]

I know what you mean about S4, I'm at that point too and although it starts out somewhat strong, I don't think they end well that season so I've been sort of dreading it. In The Monster At The End Of This Book Lilith tries to make a deal with Sam that she gets their heads on a stick and she'll stop breaking seals and everything goes back to the status quo. Which is a pretty stupid deal to make anyway because once Sam and Dean are dead who was going to make sure she kept her end of the bargain... but I digress, she said she wanted to make a deal because it turned out she wouldn't survive this war, killed off just as the good part starts. So, she did know at that time that she would die to start it, but how early on did she know this?

 

I'm switching to your theory, she was just testing to see if he really was the chosen one and ended up being rather surprised by it.

[supposebly]

Well, if she could make sure Sam and Dean stay dead, then the whole apocalypse and price fight at the end couldn't be done. So, as deals go, it would be ok. Lucifer with no "chosen" vessel and no one to get him out.

 

So, in conclusion, Sam really should have made that deal? I really don't remember but somehow that would have made him right? That can't be right. Wasn't he always wrong in season 4? ;-)

[catrox14]

So, I just found this on Tumblr.  It's the original dialogue from Dean's death scene in 9.23. It has Sam's original lines that Jared changed to "I lied" and it has Dean's dialogue that Jensen changed.  I think Dean's dialogue could have still worked but I get why Jensen changed. 

 

http://itsjustjensen.tumblr.com/post/96416980858.

 

It's a little hard to read but you can make it larger.

[AwesomO4000]

Thanks for that @catrox14.

 

Given that dialogue, I agree with Jared's change to "I lied."

[Aeryn13]

I`m glad both changed it because IMO the original dialogue sucks ass.

 

"We played it through"? What is that even supposed to mean in the context of the episode? They didn`t play jack through. Going by Carver`s interviews, it is probably supposed to refer to Sam being "willing to let Dean die in the name of the mission". And, um, did he SEE the episode he wrote? Or at least read it? Heck, did he write it in the first place?

 

Because that wasn`t quite what happened here. As abysmal as Suck Song was but at least it would fit the bill of one brother being willing to let the other brother die for a mission.

 

And talking about the aftermath, Dean is awknowledging that death is likely preferable to whatever the MOC does to him longterm yet Sam makes it clear that he is not willing to let him die then and there. Dean doesn`t argue much because he knows it`s a moot point since he is gonna bleed out in 3...2...1. 

 

And, if "we won" was said or not, I can`t believe Dean would have even WANTED to say it because, again, they won jack. Most-ludicrous line ever. Nothing about this makes sense.

 

Sam saying "I didn`t know you were gonna die" would be taking the spot as second most-ludicrous line. And most naive certainly. 

 

However, what kills it dead is "bud". Since when in the history of the show has Dean used the nickname "bud" for Sam or anybody? John might have said this to his kids or maybe I just think of that as a fanfic trope but hells to the no. 

[catrox14]

You know what, I took it at face value that was the actual script, but maybe it wasn't! :/.  If it's not, it's a pretty good fake.

 

Jensen said at the Rome con that he was struggling to make the dialogue work. He said it never really felt right to him, so I'm glad he pushed for the change he made.

 

Part of what bugs me about the entire MoC thing is that Sam never really bothered to really delve into what it was actually doing to Dean. I feel like if he had maybe he would have understood exactly what Dean meant. And I don't think Dean was particulary able to articulate it himself.  I'm not blaming Sam at all it just would have been nice to know he researched it at least a little bit.

 

I do think they were trying to make a weird parallel with Dean allowing an angel to save Sam but Sam not being able to save Dean resulted in the literal worst thing that could happen to either brother.

Edited September 2, 2014 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

"We played it through" sounds like sports affirmation to me. They played the game all the way through and never quit or gave up, no matter the odds or the difficulties. To Dean it would have been a win because they did the best they could and did it their way; to Sam it's a loss because they lost Dean.

 

I'm glad they changed it because it's not the way these two characters usually talk, but I get the meaning.

[catrox14]

I could live with the 'played it through' line.  But yeah I don't think Dean would have ever said we won because they didn't.  He didn't defeat Metatron.

 

Jensen deserves all the credit for coming up with "I'm proud of us". That tells me that he really does know Dean and that Dean had evolved to knowing that his relationship with his brother was something to be proud of and the work they did.  It was really perfect last words for Dean Winchester. 

[SueB]

I like your interpretation DDD but I agree with everyone else, J2 really saved this one.  "I lied" is so simple and true. "I'm proud of us." conveys the message so much better -- I think there are T-shirts at this point.

 

I hope they pay these guys well because really, I suspect they've made more than a few saves. 

[Demented Daisy]

To "play through" is a golf term.  I've tried to figure out what it could mean in that context, but I got nothing.

 

I suspect (but have no proof) that it was all supposed to parallel Sam and the Trials.  They didn't know what was happening to him and Dean didn't know that Sam was going to die until the very end.  Like Dean, Sam didn't realize that the Mark might kill him (even though it didn't) and it wasn't until he was faced with the possibility that he really thought about what Dean's death meant.  Like Dean, Sam decided he couldn't face the possibility and was willing to do whatever it took to save Dean.  Unlike Sam last year, Dean succumbed to death.

 

So this year, it looks like Sam will do whatever he has to do to "save" Dean.  Dean screwed up by allowing Gadreel to possess Sam, so Sam must screw up in some way to save Dean.

 

Just my analysis.  I could be completely wrong.

[catrox14]

Taking my reply to spoilers and spec

[DittyDotDot]

That's my thought too DD. They do love their symmetry on this show.

 

"To play through" is a golf term, but "Play it all the way through" is a more generally used sports term, it just means to run the play, give it your all and don't give up when things get too hard; win or lose, you can walk away with your head held high.

Edited September 2, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

"To play through" is a golf term, but "Play it all the way through" is a more generally used sports term, it just means to run the play, give it your all and don't give up when things get too hard; win or lose, you can walk away with your head held high.

 

I agree with this, yet I don't think that's what Dean would have thought about this particular outcome, especially given what he did this season. I think changing it to I'm Proud of Us sums up what really mattered to Dean.

[DittyDotDot]

It's just semantics, IMO. "We played it all the way through" is just another way of saying "I'm proud of us"...the difference for me is that Dean doesn't usually talk like a high school basketball coach, so I'm glad they changed it, but it basically means the same thing. Dean's not just talking about this one battle with Marvatron, but their entire lives as hunters and human beings. They always fought the good fight and never gave up; that's what he's proud of and that's what they played all the way through.

[Demented Daisy]

It's the Supernatural version of Dawson's speech at the end of Dazed and Confused:

 

Dawson: Well, all I'm saying is that I want to look back and say that I did I the best I could while I was stuck in this place. Had as much fun as I could while I was stuck in this place. Played as hard as I could while I was stuck in this place... Dogged as many girls as I could while I was stuck in this place.

 

[7kstar]

You know what, I took it at face value that was the actual script, but maybe it wasn't! :/.  If it's not, it's a pretty good fake.

 

Jensen said at the Rome con that he was struggling to make the dialogue work. He said it never really felt right to him, so I'm glad he pushed for the change he made.

 

Part of what bugs me about the entire MoC thing is that Sam never really bothered to really delve into what it was actually doing to Dean. I feel like if he had maybe he would have understood exactly what Dean meant. And I don't think Dean was particulary able to articulate it himself.  I'm not blaming Sam at all it just would have been nice to know he researched it at least a little bit.

 

I do think they were trying to make a weird parallel with Dean allowing an angel to save Sam but Sam not being able to save Dean resulted in the literal worst thing that could happen to either brother.

I can totally see why both actors struggled with the lines and for me the changes improved it by giving such a strong message and at the same time left it open enough for wiggle room for season 10.

 

When I first read the actual script what I saw from Dean's line was for the first time we followed the rules, didn't change  it and did what they wanted us to do, and Sam's line but we lost, meaning anyway we did it we couldn't win.

 

I like the line changes and for me I got with Sam's line "I lied,"  was his acknowledgement that it wasn't as easy as he thought it would be.  That he understood why Dean just couldn't let him go.

 

It also shows how deep both Jared and Jensen go into trying to portray their roles.  Sadly, I think it also shows why the writers don't get what makes this show a success.  I'm not sure they get it, and they just want to write their moment without looking at what it does to the characters in the long run.

[catrox14]

To me, Jared changing it to "I lied" and Dean saying "I'm proud of us" was much more personal about their relationship than their relationship to the rest of the world and being saviors, at least that's how it all seemed to me, which seems so much more right than making it about their mission.  Thinking back to AHBL2, Dean didn't go to Hell for a mission, he did it for Sam.  And here I think, Sam is hoping to save Dean just because it's Dean, not because of the mission.

 

I'm sure part of what Dean was saying was about their lives as hunters but to me that wasn't my takeaway.

Edited September 2, 2014 by catrox14

[7kstar]

I was talking about what was written on the script more than the final product.

 

I lied, and I'm proud of us is much more personal than what was written in the script.  Personally I like the change and agree that it makes it stronger and improves on the bond between the brothers.

[catrox14]

I understand 7kstar and agree :)

[supposebly]

As if I couldn't lose my respect for the Supernatural writers much more.....

 

Bud?

Played through?

 

WTF?

[catrox14]

If I didn't think Carver hated the boys before that dialogue convinces me.  Apparently they have both started speaking golfdudebro.  Whatever Carve.r 

 

 

Thank gods Jared and Jensen give enough shits to speak up when it's wrong for the characters.

[DittyDotDot]

From the Survival Of The Fittest thread...

 

It was also good to see the effects of Dick's bad diplomacy blowing up in his face. One of the consistent themes in this series that hasn't been LOL cannoned is that: arrogance gets the bad guys every time (and even Sam). It happened with Lucifer, and to an extent Michael. It got Zachariah, godCastiel, Raphael, Ruby, and finally in this episode Dick. By having the arrogance to try to doublecross the Alpha Vampire, Dick assured that the vampire would instead decide to help Sam and Dean and give them his blood.

 

I'd add Meg 1.0 and Yellow Eyes to that list  of arrogant villains. Meg would have never been exorcised in S1 if she hadn't come barging into Bobby's house half cocked and monologuing about how underwhelmed she was by the Winchesters which got her trapped in that Seal Of Solomon. Same with S2, she had to be a show-off and waste time monologuing at Dean about how worthless he was and how she saw his daddy in Hell and such, which gave Bobby the chance to burn that sigil off Sam's arm and get her exorcised. And, Yellow Eyes just had to monologue at Dean about the red tape when he should've not wasted the time and instead just wasted Dean before Dean got an opportunity to waste him (Heh! Sorry, couldn't help myself there.)

 

I'm amending that...it's the monologuing that kills the beast. I always suspected monologues were deadly, but look at the proof people! ;)

Edited September 9, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[mertensia]

Monologing always kills Bond villains too.

Frankly were I Crowley I would have just kidnapped the boys at some point and just locked them in a dungeon in Hell. Feed them so they don't die (no resurrection) and just let them rot.

[DittyDotDot]

Yeah, I also think that if I were Yellow Eyes I would have just kidnapped Sam as an infant and had him raised by my own hand with my own brainwashing so he wouldn't have gotten any of those saving tendencies and wouldn't have stomped his feet and not done what I wanted him to do in the end.

 

There's never any "villainous" plot that couldn't have been deconstructed by rational thinking, IMO. But, as I've said many times before and will probably say many more times, logic and rational thought have no place in this forum. Hee!

[mertensia]

Yellow eyes lost the moment he had to showboat and stick Mary on the ceiling. A natural death would have kept them all innocent and I bet Sam very easy to manipulate.

[DittyDotDot]

The logic is making my brain hurt...stop the logic and reasoning and making absolute sense! Hee!

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the Survival game thread:

 

Hmmm, I thought the blood and desperate need to rationalize his choices is what drove Sam to belittle Dean. As he told both Chuck and Ruby, he felt it was on his shoulders cause Dean was too weak. When the reality was that he was looking to justify his otherness and resolve the anger he had inside.

It's complicated though and I can see why the kid who idolized his brother, to the point of trying to be ready to be like him when he was sent to hell, seems out of place with the crap he said in the Siren episode. Yes that was under influence but it was, I think, in the direction of his mindset.

Well, how ever Sam got thrown under the bus, he was there IMO.

 

I don't know, I guess I can see this. But maybe for me there was a difference between Sam thinking Dean was too damaged to do what Sam thought had to be done, since as you say, that could make sense from Sam's perspective - both from what Ruby was telling him and what he was seeing from Dean (and his growing frustration with the angels' conflicting messages) - and the venom with which the writers made sure Sam said such things as the "boo hoo" speech and the totally uninfluenced "How was hell?" (Which I understand Sam was annoyed, but was that way to express it really necessary for them to do except to create a "poor Dean" moment and/or throw Sam's character under the bus?).

 

For me Sam could have been thinking Dean was too damaged but still been portrayed with at least some compassion. The writers chose not to each time after the first few episodes.*** Example: "On the Head of A Pin." It started out seeming like Sam was mainly angry at the angels for taking Dean to make him torture, and there were even hints in the end too that Sam was worried what this would do/did to Dean - which good, I can get behind that - but nope, they couldn't leave it at that. They had to have Sam spout off about how Dean couldn't do it, because he was just too weak. (Which is one of the reasons I dislike that episode also).

 

It's weird, but for some reason I can accept Sam deciding to kill the nurse because he thought it would save the world (mainly because he was also willing to sacrifice himself in the process) much more than I can accept Sam treating Dean (who had suffered enough) so badly. I think part of it is because the Machiavellian decision seemed to me to be a character progression / decision that Sam could understandably make under the circumstances - i.e. seals breaking all over, the angels not doing anything to stop it or giving any guidance at all while telling them they had to stop it, Ruby and to an extent Chuck letting Sam believe that things were resting on his shoulders, and Sam's feelings of failure and need to try to do something to erase that failure (ironic) - while Sam's being crappy to Dean just seemed... I don't know, out of character for him at that point in the series (he'd gotten past that in season 1 I thought).

 

My opinion - If the writers wanted this conflict, there was a legitimate thorn right there they could've used rather than the "you're weak" thing which just ended up looking mean-spirited in my opinion. And that was they could have Sam be hurt and angry that Dean had made the Deal and left him with the consequences. Some viewers might find that unsympathetic considering how Dean suffered, but at least it would make sense, and to me couldn't be any more unsympathetic than "you're weak and pathetic." But maybe I'm missing something.

 

 

As for "Lucifer Rising," it might be a bit unfair, but for me that epispode was a last chance to correct course a bit there: to have potentially shown Sam at least regretted some of the things he'd said to Dean since he was going on what he thought would be a suicide mission, but nope, they couldn't even give Sam that out when it would've been so easy to do - just a line or two there of regret. I hated and condemned that they did the same kind of thing in season 8, so I'd feel like I was being a hypocrite if I overlooked a similar thing in season 4 just because some of the episodes were better written.

 

*** And that was another weird thing. For me there was little progression or explanation for the behavior difference between the Sam of the beginning of season 4 to the one from the middle and later season 4. It was like Sam went from concerned, compassionate brother who was thrilled the angels brought Dean back to jerky, lying, berating Sam with no apparent reason as to what changed... not enough Sam POV here in my opinion, because the writers were too busy with the "oooh mysterious Sam" and "let's heap all the shit we can think of on Dean" angles, to consider how this was making Sam look in the long run.

   

Well, how ever Sam got thrown under the bus, he was there IMO.

 

I totally agree. And it makes season 8 all the more worse for me, because I was like "Again? Really? The first time wasn't enough for you?" Though I think season 8 - especially the first half - pretty much threw Sam under the bus, ran him over, backed it up and ran him over again... about a half dozen times. (Did I mention that I hate the first half of season 8?  ; )  )

[7kstar]

For me, Sam wasn't over his anger in Season 1 and I can understand that.

 

In life you forgive in layers.  You think you're over it, you might even express it but then bam it hits again and you've got more letting go to do.

 

I agree if they had allowed Sam to show concern, Dean needs to be protected because he's been through too much in Hell, I need to protect him since I couldn't save him from going to Hell and also add in the twist of bitterness that Dean forced me in this position to begin with by making the deal, I think I would have liked that Sam a lot more.  Plus it would add depth to a character and richness that would have made the storyline complicated like real people are.

 

Bobby's line, Yeah I really hated what they did with Bobby here and I tend to pretend it never happened, that's it, just erase that moment out of the script.

 

I think you could have done several things better, Dean could still be angry with his brother but discover with a better written speech from Bobby that he still loved Sam more and he couldn't help but try to make amends especially since they always add the parent role to his character.

 

The storyline for Sam at the beginning of  Season 8...awful just plain crap.  It easily could have been I shut down Dean I just couldn't do anything, I hit the dog and I just couldn't figure out why my trying to save people mattered anymore since we always lose.  Why?  Then I met her and I tried to save myself by getting lost in something good cause...

 

I think if they had really thought about fans reactions, the course change wouldn't have been needed.  But I blame the writers for focusing on a section of a story they want to tell  and refusing to look at the consequences to the character in the long run. 

 

Maybe it is because I've acted I see the stronger choices.  Add in directing, and I see more than I think the average writer sees.

 

I say this because I have heard several writers talking about how they don't understand actors and by not getting it, they find things happening on a page that they can't predict a way the audience may react.  Of course, audiences will always be mixed in reviews...always because we relate to some things more than others.  Plus we all have some button that the characters may push.    Not sure if I explained anything well, but I'm very mixed about Season 4 - 5. 

 

If Jensen wasn't such a good actor, I doubt I would have stayed with the show.   I think it's why I really had a hard time with Gamble because I was so sick of some of the stuff when it repeated in season 6 & 7 I almost quit watching all together...   I just hope this season will pay off for sticking with the show. 

 

And I really do love the brother's...I'm just ready for some hope because my life has too much sucky moments that I don't really need to watch a show that will not give any hope.  I need a way to escape from my life issues, not add to them.

Edited September 13, 2014 by 7kstar

[SueB]

Ah! Nice juicy topic for the morning for me!

First my disclaimers/biases/whatev's:

I don't have a huge problem with shows portraying family saying shitty things to each other when their fighting.It's a BAD thing but it's a REAL thing.  No one matters to you more than family and no one can hurt/betray you more than family in the heat of an argument.  And some of that shit scars for LIFE.  So, it's not like that doesn't matter. I'm just saying it's realistic so I'm okay when the Show does that. Now what I WANT to see is that they don't go for the jugular (which is EASY pickings for these people). I want to see that their love for each other will stop them short of saying the truly awful stuff.  Specific examples:

--  Early season fighting about good soldier vs abandoning the family.  Both are approaching go-for-the-jugular arguments but they are realistic FAMILY arguments.  Post John's death, I would have hoped they would have tread more lightly there.

-- "Suck it up" statements from Bobby - I actually think Bobby was trying to help. To get Dean to see the bigger picture and that losing Sam was not what Dean really wanted.  So..I'm totally okay with Bobby telling him to reach out to Sam, even if Sam hurt him.  Bobby's delivery was harsh but this may be what Dean needed.  Bobby telling him that he was a better man than his Daddy was, IMO, a telling point and showed that Bobby's heart was with Dean.  Finally, sometimes I think you have to set your own hurt aside and see the big picture.  That hurt needs to be addressed (which NEVER happens on Supernatural) but snapping someone out of a funk is okay by me,.

- Sam's "boo hoo" came from the Siren/Ruby/Demon blood influence. But Dean has said well "boo hoo" before. So it felt like throwing something back in Dean's face.  It was a HORRIBLE "go for the jugular" speech and I didn't like it.  And we are given every indication that this is Sam un-chained.  That Sam really had these thoughts.  Well that sucks. OTOH, my comment about Sam searching for a justification to drinking Demon blood says to me Sam was in a heavy rationalization mode at this time.  Doesn't make me like what's going on with Sam but I see how they got from point A to point B.

 

 

And that was they could have Sam be hurt and angry that Dean had made the Deal and left him with the consequences.

IA.  To me it all comes down to that critical turning point in Criss Angel... where Sam goes back under Ruby's influence and it's so POORLY justified.  I guess I figured once he was letting Ruby pour poison in his ear, Sam lost his perspective on Dean. 

 

So... in the end, I guess I'm saying that things that bother others don't bother me so much. But the episode I blame most is Criss Angel vice Lucifer Rising. 

 

 

And I really do love the brother's...I'm just ready for some hope because my life has too much sucky moments that I don't really need to watch a show that will not give any hope.  I need a way to escape from my life issues, not add to them.

For me, when I see someone who is experiencing a conundrum akin to my real life, it helps me bear it. 

[Aeryn13]

 

Bobby's delivery was harsh but this may be what Dean needed.

 

I think Bobby was a big out-out-line asshole in that scene and I`ll never buy the "oh, that is just the only language Dean understands" rationalization. I think that would be how Bobby excuses himself even though when he is called out on his crap, even in the midlest manner possible, he pits ten kinds of fits and acts all wounded ego.

 

And as shown in his own flashback about his abusive childhood, he is a giant flaming hypocrite because he didn`t adhere to the "family makes you miserable, that`s what they are there for" mantra. Now don`t get me wrong, I had no problem whatsoever with childBobby blowing a hole in his abusive father`s skull but if you think family is so sancrosanct, you have to lay down and take it for infinitiy, then that is a big no-no.

 

In the end, it annoyed me because of course Dean caved and went right back to being a little doormat. Whenever he even takes a whiff of a line in the sand, he gets chewed out for it. And then people wonder he has devolved into the pitiful "there ain`t no me if there is no you" version who does crap like with "Ezekiel". 

 

Yeah, it probably would have hurt him afterwards had he let Sam go - as we saw, it wouldn`t have changed the Lucifer-rising outcome because that was fixed either way - but I think that would have been good for him in the end. So without Bobby`s asisine speech, I see only upsides and no downsides. That`s why I can `t accept it as something remotely good.   

[catrox14]

 

Bobby's line, Yeah I really hated what they did with Bobby here and I tend to pretend it never happened, that's it, just erase that moment out of the script.

 

I wish I could forget it but the show didn't and they continued to build on Bobby invalidating Dean's feelings and needs many times thereafter. Frankly for a character that was supposed to be Bobby's favorite he sure treated Dean like crap. Whatever happened to the Bobby that said in AHBL:

 

Bobby: What is it with you Winchesters, huh? You, your dad. You're both just itching to throw yourselves down the pit.

Dean:That's my point. Dad brought me back, Bobby. I'm not even supposed to be here. At least this way, something good could come out of it, you know? I--I--It's like my life could mean something.

Bobby: What? And it didn't before?! Have you got that low of an opinion of yourself? Are you that screwed in the head?!"

 

IMO Bobby showed how different he was than John here. He lead with words that validated Dean's life and his worth as person. IMO Bobby loved Dean and was trying to get him to see that he had value in this life too. It was still kind,if harsh. 

 

But in  Lucifer Rising, he invalidated Dean's legitimate need to take care of himself after he couldn't get through to Sam and Sam had beat the shit out of him and told Dean he was weak, by calling him a 'stupid son of a bitch" followed by the "Oh boo hoo, princess" diatribe and comparing him to John. Sure he finally said at the end, "You are a better man than your father ever was', but I think what went before was much more powerful and stayed in Dean's psyche more than 'you are not your father'.  I think Dean called because he wanted to, not because of Bobby's admonitions.

 

I do think it was supposed to come across as another 'YAY BOBBY SPEAKING TRUTH TO IDJITS" moment but it was just the opposite for me.  L. It's a pattern that started in Lucifer Rising and IMO carried on to s9 even.

 

  -- In "Two Minutes to Midnight" Bobby was talking about how hard they had always been on Sam and that was clearly really about Dean being hard on Sam and how heroic Sam was. Well, first, how is that the first time Bobby saw Sam's heroics? And when exactly was Bobby ever hard on Sam, EVER before that episode. I can't remember once. 

 

--In s6, Bobby lied to Dean for an entire YEAR and decided that he knew better than Dean what Dean needed in his life (a wife and kid) when what Dean needed was to know that Sam was alive.

 

--He blew Dean off in Weekend at Bobby's when Dean called to talk about Sam. Yes Bobby was trying to get his soul back and Yes Dean called him selfish but in Dean's defense he was freaking out about Sam and Bobby was not being forthright about his problem and not explaining why he couldn't get into it now. And I thought his tongue lashing of the boys was kind of out of line because they have built Bobby up to ALWAYS be there for the boys, but then this time when Dean really needs him because it's SAM, he chews them for always needing him. Which is it show??  I can forgive that because Bobby had his hands full but at the same time he could have brought the boys in before he did but it bothers me a lot.

 

--In "You Can't Handle the Truth" after Dean sees Sam let him be turned in "Live Free or Twi Hard" he calls Bobby for help. And it was desperate. Bobby again, doesn't trust Dean's opinion here and doubts what Dean saw with really no good reason to do so.  Bobby even admitted he thought Sam was off but he figured it was just a post Hell thing. So instead of  just saying 'Holy shit, Dean. Stay right there I'm coming and we'll sort it out" he tells Dean to get back in the car with the guy that let him be turned into a vampire against his will and shames him because he didn't already see Sam as his case. Hey, not!Daddy!Bobby, you ignored that Sam was odd for a year. Good job on making Sam your case there, Bobby. 

 

Now, all of that would have been acceptable ways for Bobby to act towards Dean if Dean were just a family friend. But the show has been painting the picture and telling us over and over that Bobby is the " Great and Wise Better Father than John" figure his behavior and attitude towards Dean doesn't seem to mesh and I expected more of the Bobby from ABHL in how he supports the boys vs what we got as the series progressed

 

TL;DR- Bobby is kind of a dick to Dean most of the time

Edited September 13, 2014 by catrox14

[SueB]

 

TL;DR

I always forget what this translates to. 

 

Although I get your drift and accept your perspective.  I personally think Bobby over-identifies with Dean and is thus harsh on him without realizing it.

[DittyDotDot]

Early season fighting about good soldier vs abandoning the family.  Both are approaching go-for-the-jugular arguments but they are realistic FAMILY arguments.  Post John's death, I would have hoped they would have tread more lightly there.

 

Or as I like to call it banter rather than bicker. Early seasons it was more from a place of love and affection rather than frustration and anger. I get why they had to go that far in S4 and I really didn't mind it because I thought it was leading somewhere. I think the bigger fail for what they did with Sam in S4 is how they kept everything about Sam's demon blood drinking and/or addiction such a mystery until almost the end of the season. Which means that for almost the entire season we don't see any actual POV from Sam. We don't understand why he thinks Dean is weak and we don't understand how the demon blood is affecting him and his actions. In hindsight, I get it, but I think it may have went on too long.

 

This show does love to get caught up in its own "cleverness" and sometimes can't see the forest for the trees. Same thing with Dean being tortured in Hell for 30 years and then turn torturer for 10 years. On paper that sounds like a juicy story, but then they don't want to reveal it til episode 9 or 10 so Dean strolls around making his same old pop culture references and jokes and lusting after babes--basically original-recipe Dean that drinks a little bit more. For me, these are major fails and a big part of why S4 is such a conflicting season for me. They reached high--and I can appreciate that--but they didn't quite stick the landing in the end. It's a shame, there are some good things happening here.

 

"Suck it up" statements from Bobby - I actually think Bobby was trying to help. To get Dean to see the bigger picture and that losing Sam was not what Dean really wanted.  So..I'm totally okay with Bobby telling him to reach out to Sam, even if Sam hurt him.  Bobby's delivery was harsh but this may be what Dean needed.  Bobby telling him that he was a better man than his Daddy was, IMO, a telling point and showed that Bobby's heart was with Dean.  Finally, sometimes I think you have to set your own hurt aside and see the big picture.  That hurt needs to be addressed (which NEVER happens on Supernatural) but snapping someone out of a funk is okay by me,.

 

I agree SueB. Never thought Bobby was being mean to Dean, but in his own messed up way was trying to help. And I think he was doing what he thought Dean would do if the situation was reversed. It wasn't like Bobby started with the "boo-hoo princess line", he started with a softer gentler approach but got angry and said some things he probably wished he didn't and then tempered them with "you are a better man than your father". It was a very realistic heated argument between two very stubborn men and I appreciate it on that level.

 

My issues with Bobby really started more in S5 with how they started building him up in their young lives and how he became the go-to problem solver extraordinaire instead of them doing things for themselves at times. It just became tiring at times. But, as I've said before, even when I hated Bobby, I still loved him.

[Aeryn13]

 

TL;DR- Bobby is kind of a dick to Dean most of the time

 

I don`t think the character started out this way but by mid-Season 4, he was there. Dean was his favourite? Ahahaha. And he was "hard on Sam"? Ahahahahaha. At some point, he was so deep inside Sam`s ass, he never saw daylight again. "Oh, you are so deep, Sam" vs. "stop trying to think, Dean, you are too dumb anyway" and "Sam is your case, fucker, who cares about you?" vs. "stop worrying about Dean, think of yourself, Sam" and right down to "Sam is a better hunter".   "

 

I was happy the character was killed off but of course they dragged him back a couple of times afterwards which eh. 

[Demented Daisy]

TL;DR means "Too Long, Didn't Read".

 

As you were.

[catrox14]

Or as I like to call it banter rather than bicker. Early seasons it was more from a place of love and affection rather than frustration and anger. I get why they had to go that far in S4 and I really didn't mind it because I thought it was leading somewhere. I think the bigger fail for what they did with Sam in S4 is how they kept everything about Sam's demon blood drinking and/or addiction such a mystery until almost the end of the season. Which means that for almost the entire season we don't see any actual POV from Sam. We don't understand why he thinks Dean is weak and we don't understand how the demon blood is affecting him and his actions. In hindsight, I get it, but I think it may have went on too long.

 

This show does love to get caught up in its own "cleverness" and sometimes can't see the forest for the trees. Same thing with Dean being tortured in Hell for 30 years and then turn torturer for 10 years. On paper that sounds like a juicy story, but then they don't want to reveal it til episode 9 or 10 so Dean strolls around making his same old pop culture references and jokes and lusting after babes--basically original-recipe Dean that drinks a little bit more. For me, these are major fails and a big part of why S4 is such a conflicting season for me. They reached high--and I can appreciate that--but they didn't quite stick the landing in the end. It's a shame, there are some good things happening here.

 

 

I agree SueB. Never thought Bobby was being mean to Dean, but in his own messed up way was trying to help. And I think he was doing what he thought Dean would do if the situation was reversed. It wasn't like Bobby started with the "boo-hoo princess line", he started with a softer gentler approach but got angry and said some things he probably wished he didn't and then tempered them with "you are a better man than your father". It was a very realistic heated argument between two very stubborn men and I appreciate it on that level.

 

My issues with Bobby really started more in S5 with how they started building him up in their young lives and how he became the go-to problem solver extraordinaire instead of them doing things for themselves at times. It just became tiring at times. But, as I've said before, even when I hated Bobby, I still loved him.

 

 

 

He started off with "I know you are hurt and angry" and then proceeded to tell Dean that his hurt and anger were meaningless and that he was a princess for having any feelings at all.  

 

It's too hard to draw those comparisons because Bobby and Dean are very different kinds of people.

 

I actually don't think Dean would have gone down the "boo hoo princess path" because in spite of him saying "No chick flick moments" I really think Dean is more compassionate and empathetic than he is given credit for. And he will always put mission first.  He would have kept the focus on the mission and what the mission needed.

 

Dean: "Okay, man. Look. It's a messed up situation. And I know you are really pissed off at him and you can't stand him. You are sick of his shit. I get it. Hell, after all this is over, if you want to walk away, go ahead. But right now, we need you in the fight and we need you to find him even if he doesn't want to be found. Because we have a bigger problem. Are you in or what?"

 

And that is where Bobby failed.  He didn't acknowledge that the closeness of the brothers is why Dean is so hurt and angry. Instead he guilt tripped Dean without really acknowledging that Dean had a legitimate beef.  Dean IMO would have set that part of things aside and kept it all about the mission leaving out the family stuff because the family stuff is precisely what made everything worse.

Edited September 13, 2014 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

I actually don't think Dean would have gone down the "boo hoo princess path" because in spite of him saying "No chick flick moments" I really think Dean is more compassionate and empathetic than he is given credit for. And he will always put mission first.  He would have kept the focus on the mission and what the mission needed.

 

Obviously Dean would have chosen different words, but the caring enough to try and talk someone out of doing something that you think they'll regret later is what I was referring to Bobby maybe thinking its what Dean would do for him if the situation was reversed. I think Bobby realized that after Dean got over his anger at Sam he would wish that he hadn't been so stubborn and tried one more time to reach out and help Sam. Bobby was trying to do something from a place of caring that went so very wrong and I think Dean understood that in the end.

[SueB]

 

I think the bigger fail for what they did with Sam in S4 is how they kept everything about Sam's demon blood drinking and/or addiction such a mystery until almost the end of the season.

This. X1000.

 

TL;DR means "Too Long, Didn't Read".

Ah. Thanks.  I'll try to cut out the verbose piffle. It's a bad habit.

 

 

Same thing with Dean being tortured in Hell for 30 years and then turn torturer for 10 years. On paper that sounds like a juicy story, but then they don't want to reveal it til episode 9 or 10 so Dean strolls around making his same old pop culture references and jokes and lusting after babes--basically original-recipe Dean that drinks a little bit more.

After rewatching, I got the impression that Dean's memories were not fully "there" at the start.  That they came back in the form of nightmare/slashbacks and he didn't have them fully when he first rose. Certainly he remembered everything by Yellow Fever.  Anyone else think this was the case? (Indicators: Confused look in gas station bathroom, another flashback in first ep, nightmare at the start of In the Beginning).

[DittyDotDot]

After rewatching, I got the impression that Dean's memories were not fully "there" at the start.  That they came back in the form of nightmare/slashbacks and he didn't have them fully when he first rose. Certainly he remembered everything by Yellow Fever.  Anyone else think this was the case? (Indicators: Confused look in gas station bathroom, another flashback in first ep, nightmare at the start of In the Beginning).

 

I always thought he knew and his confusion in the gas station was more--how the fuck did I go from being on the rack to waking up in that pine box. Either way, Yellow Fever was episode six and he's still no different to me. In fact, he gave his breakdown speech in Heaven And Hell and he still was just regular recipe Dean that drinks a little more all season. I never saw a difference in Dean in S4 in light of the 30 years of torture reveal. For the most part, he was the same old Dean Winchester who drank a bit more, but not even the heavier drinking really did much to him. That's why I find it a major fail. Granted I understand what they were trying to do and I understood that he was supposed to be broken and I've long made it work in my head, I just didn't see it myself. If that even makes any sense.

[catrox14]

Ah. Thanks.  I'll try to cut out the verbose piffle. It's a bad habit.

 

No no SueB, you got me wrong. I was referring to my post! Not anyone else's. The TL;DR version of my post is : Bobby is a dick to Dean.  I sure as heck wasn't saying anyone else shouldn't make long posts.  EGADS apologies if that is the impression I left anyone with. NOT AT ALL. I was mocking myself!

[catrox14]

Obviously Dean would have chosen different words, but the caring enough to try and talk someone out of doing something that you think they'll regret later is what I was referring to Bobby maybe thinking its what Dean would do for him if the situation was reversed. I think Bobby realized that after Dean got over his anger at Sam he would wish that he hadn't been so stubborn and tried one more time to reach out and help Sam. Bobby was trying to do something from a place of caring that went so very wrong and I think Dean understood that in the end.

 

 

 

 

Oh I know that Dean understood Bobby, in his asshole way, was trying to help, but he still harmed Dean greatly in the process.  My point in my little dialogue was that it was Dean's approach and attitude that IMO would have been different and less hurtful than Bobby's.

[DittyDotDot]

Possibly, but I'm not willing to damn Bobby for what Dean may have done better or kinder or gentler especially when its just speculation as to how Dean would have done it since it never even happened. I think Bobby did it as the character Bobby would do, so I'm fine with the moment. Bobby was trying to be helpful and screwed it up and Dean understood that, not sure that it was all that damaging to Dean in the end, but that's probably just me.

 

Personally, I don't think that Dean calls Sam because Bobby browbeats him. Dean calls Sam because Dean realized that not everything was all he had thought it was and now that he wasn't so angry could see that possibly he didn't want the last thing he said to his brother to be the same words spoken by their asshole of a father that kept Sam away from their family years earlier. Which was all Bobby was trying to get Dean to understand in the first place.

[catrox14]

 

. I think Bobby did it as the character Bobby would do, so I'm fine with the moment. Bobby was trying to be helpful and screwed it up and Dean understood that, not sure that it was all that damaging to Dean in the end, but that's probably just m

 

And that's where I disagree. I didn't think that was in keeping with how Bobby had dealt with Dean before. To me it was a huge character shift for Bobby to be that cruel to be kind thing.  He had never really been that way before and I don't count calling them idjits in that same category. And it turned out to not be just a one time thing.

 

I dunno, Dean ended up letting an angel possess Sam because it got to the point that he can't live without him and part of me wonders if some of that is not only because of the parentification early on but also having Bobby constantly push him back towards Sam even when it was not healthy for Dean to go back towards Sam.  And yet in s6 Bobby decides its okay for Dean to not know that his brother is still alive. But then once he does learn about it, Bobby is like "make Sam your case" Don't abandon your brother.  Jeez...which is it Bobby?? So yeah it's hard to not think Bobby has a lot of influence over Dean considering Dean's sees him as a father. 

[DittyDotDot]

How I see the "boo-hoo princess" speech is like a friend that gets in the middle of two other friends fight. (I hesitate to use the parent and two children analogy because I don't like to think of Bobby as their parent, but that works too) A smart friend would stay out of it, let each side vent, but not actively try to smooth things over or anything and let the two parties work it out for themselves. No, Bobby was the dumb friend who went out of his way to make in an attempt to make things happy for all the friends again. He got frustrated and said some things that he probably wouldn't have if he had thought it through better, but I don't think he was trying to be cruel, his intent was to be helpful. But of course it went wrong because it always goes wrong when you get in the middle of a fight that isn't your fight to begin with. I still think his heart was in the right place though.

 

Bobby's decisions in S6 also came from a place of caring--albeit misguided and somewhat misplaced caring, but caring none the less. He keeps Sam secret because he thinks Dean is happy and wants him to continue to be so. Was that really his call to make? No, but it did come out of a place of caring. And, telling him Sam was his case was also out of a place of caring. Would Dean have felt better about himself if he's taken out Sam and then later found out that he could have done something to save Sam instead. Again, maybe it wasn't really Bobby's place, but his intention was to be helpful.

 

Personally, I didn't care for his princess speech or that he withheld that Sam was alive, but I also didn't find it to be out of character or all that damning either. To me, they are poor writing necessities rather than actual character beats--the first was expositional catching up from the last episode and the second was plot necessity to add another level of angst to Dean's already overly angsty life. But again, that's probably just me.

[AwesomO4000]

This might be long. I apologize in advance. Maybe I'll try to summarize later.

{Exceprts} - And as shown in his own flashback about his abusive childhood, he is a giant flaming hypocrite because he didn`t adhere to the "family makes you miserable, that`s what they are there for" mantra. Now don`t get me wrong, I had no problem whatsoever with childBobby blowing a hole in his abusive father`s skull but if you think family is so sancrosanct, you have to lay down and take it for infinitiy, then that is a big no-no.

 

Yeah, it probably would have hurt him afterwards had he let Sam go - as we saw, it wouldn`t have changed the Lucifer-rising outcome because that was fixed either way - but I think that would have been good for him in the end. So without Bobby`s asisine speech, I see only upsides and no downsides. That`s why I can `t accept it as something remotely good.   

 

I think Bobby's flashbacks showed exactly why Bobby was giving the "Family makes you miserable" advice, because from what I saw Bobby had regrets in taking the his stance and shooting his father. The first thing that happened after he did was that his mother was not grateful, but instead said "What did you do? God is gonna punish you." Bobby was trying to let Dean know that family is never going to be all rosy all the time, and if you expect it to be or try too hard to make it that way, things might only get worse. Dean himself had enough experience with that trying to make him and John and Sam "fit" into his ideal of family... and it didn't work.

 

As for Dean letting Sam go - yup that would've hurt Dean, and I'm not sure how that would have been good for Dean in the end. I think very strongly the opposite. Dean would not have known that the angels were involved, and had Sam gone ahead, either by himself or influenced by Zach (since Sam was wavering and it could have gone either way), in my opinion the first thing Dean would have done is said to himself "what if I had tried to talk with him?" and then blamed himself partly or mostly for what happened. At least this way Dean knew that he had done all that he could to try to help Sam and stop him and it was Zach who interfered. I'm not really sure what the upside to the just letting Sam go scenario is myself. Dean would've only blamed himself - and the angels probably would have as well to use as leverage for Dean to say yes to Michael.

 

{Excerpts} My note: @catrox14 - I don't want to break up your well devised (chronological) post, so I'm going to use letters to address your specific points. I hope that's okay...

A) But in  Lucifer Rising, he invalidated Dean's legitimate need to take care of himself after he couldn't get through to Sam and Sam had beat the shit out of him and told Dean he was weak, by calling him a 'stupid son of a bitch" followed by the "Oh boo hoo, princess" diatribe and comparing him to John. Sure he finally said at the end, "You are a better man than your father ever was', but I think what went before was much more powerful and stayed in Dean's psyche more than 'you are not your father'.  I think Dean called because he wanted to, not because of Bobby's admonitions.

 B) -- In "Two Minutes to Midnight" Bobby was talking about how hard they had always been on Sam and that was clearly really about Dean being hard on Sam and how heroic Sam was. Well, first, how is that the first time Bobby saw Sam's heroics? And when exactly was Bobby ever hard on Sam, EVER before that episode. I can't remember once. 

 

C) --In s6, Bobby lied to Dean for an entire YEAR and decided that he knew better than Dean what Dean needed in his life (a wife and kid) when what Dean needed was to know that Sam was alive.

 

D) --He blew Dean off in Weekend at Bobby's when Dean called to talk about Sam and --In "You Can't Handle the Truth" after Dean sees Sam let him be turned in "Live Free or Twi Hard" he calls Bobby for help. And it was desperate. Bobby again, doesn't trust Dean's opinion here and doubts what Dean saw with really no good reason to do so.

A) To play devil's advocate, Bobby did not just hear that Sam beat up Dean after Dean was trying to get through to him. Bobby also heard (paraphrase) "So I told him if you walk out, don't bother coming back" which while potentially emotionally understandable on Dean's part was also tactically (And I'll get back to tactics in a moment) the stupidest thing Dean could have said to Sam, and Bobby knew the implications of that statement - hence all the references to John. So Bobby was not just dealing with Dean's feelings where he could take his time and have a nice chat and make Dean feel better first. There was a deadline and now with this potential bombshell, Bobby was in damage control mode. What Bobby said was crappy, but based on John, crappy apparently works sometimes with Dean, and with time limited, Bobby made "appeal to Dean's family obligation instincts" part of the damage control scenario and figured that the good - getting Dean to go back and try to fix things with Sam - outweighed the potential damage. Or basically I agree with SueB here.

 

B) it depends on what you mean by hard. I don't know, I kind of consider what happened after Dean died a bit hard or at least sort of cold. Bobby pretty much washed his hands of Sam after Dean died and crawled into the bottle. Bobby said that he tried to call, and then said that "Sam didn't want to be found" but I'm not sure how much of an effort to find Sam and make sure that he was okay Bobby made. It took Dean all of 10 minutes to find Sam, and thent when Dean came back and they were concerned about what brought Dean back, they immediately went to Pamela to find something out. Couldn't Bobby have asked Pamela to help him find Sam or at least check on him? To me it pretty much sounded like Bobby went "Fine. He doesn't want to return my calls. I'm washing my hands of him." That's kind of hard, in my opinion. As was two of the first things Bobby says to Sam after not seeing him for months was that he believed that Sam made a deal for Dean and that he was acting just like John for going after Lilith.

 

C) That was crappy. As was Bobby's not knowing that there was something was wrong with Sam in the first place.

 

D) Bobby was kind of occupied in the first, but again, it goes back to Bobby thinking maybe this was just Sam - which to me was worse than him being skeptical about Dean's judgement. Then this was compounded by Bobby giving resouled Sam the side-eye for a while and not trusting him because of what Sam did while soulless (a condition of which wasn't even Sam's fault). What does that say about Bobby's trust of and his assessment of regular Sam if first he thinks that soulless Sam is Sam and then doesn't trust real Sam when he comes back?

 

And all of the above for me adds up to: At least Bobby cares enough about to Dean to actually yell at him sometimes.

 

{Excerpts} - I actually don't think Dean would have gone down the "boo hoo princess path" because in spite of him saying "No chick flick moments" I really think Dean is more compassionate and empathetic than he is given credit for. And he will always put mission first.  He would have kept the focus on the mission and what the mission needed.

And that is where Bobby failed.  He didn't acknowledge that the closeness of the brothers is why Dean is so hurt and angry. Instead he guilt tripped Dean without really acknowledging that Dean had a legitimate beef.  Dean IMO would have set that part of things aside and kept it all about the mission leaving out the family stuff because the family stuff is precisely what made everything worse.

 

I'm not so sure that Bobby did know that concerning Dean or that that's where Dean's head was at at the time. Earlier Bobby and Dean had had a similar disagreement about the mission concerning Sam. Bobby was questioning whether Dean should have Sam in the panic room partially because he wondered if Sam shouldn't be "on the battlefield" because he was potentially a strong weapon in their arsenal. Dean on the other hand was pretty much "screw that. I don't give a shit. I'm not letting Sam become a monster even if that means he dies."

 

Then Sam gets out and they have a fight and then all of a sudden it's "well I don't care what Sam does. He can go be a monster if he wants to. I'm through with him and I told him so." Both things which were not necessarily tactic driven decisions. So, no in this instance I do not think Dean was putting the family stuff aside and concentrating on the mission. If he had been, in my opinion, Dean would have agreed to work with Sam and Ruby, found out all of the tactical information from Sam and Ruby, and then waited for the right moment to gank Ruby. But instead Dean let his feeling and all of his conflict with Sam lead to the big fight and his washing his hands of the situation.

 

Having not had the entire story/background and knowing only what happened with the panic room and what Dean told him about the "don't come back," and how that was pretty much a complete 180 from Dean's original position of "I'll do whatever it takes so that Sam doesn't become a monster," to "I don't give a crap," I think Bobby was not at all crazy for questioning exactly how much Dean's head was in the game in terms of strategy. And Dean's attitude was understandable considering Sam was his brother and all of the emotions involved, but Bobby had to also consider the mission and getting Dean back on board to that end, because too much was at stake.

 

So I guess I am disagreeing that Dean was focusing on or would have focused on the mission first in this situation. I think he showed that that was not the case in fact - first when he insisted that they were not going to use Sam as a weapon if it meant him turning into a monster and then with him not willing to compromise and at least pretend to work with Ruby until such time as it would have been tactically better to gang her.

[catrox14]

 

Then Sam gets out and they have a fight and then all of a sudden it's "well I don't care what Sam does. He can go be a monster if he wants to. I'm through with him and I told him so." Both things which were not necessarily tactic driven decisions. So, no in this instance I do not think Dean was putting the family stuff aside and concentrating on the mission. If he had been, in my opinion, Dean would have agreed to work with Sam and Ruby, found out all of the tactical information from Sam and Ruby, and then waited for the right moment to gank Ruby. But instead Dean let his feeling and all of his conflict with Sam lead to the big fight and his washing his hands of the situation.

 

My comment was addressing the hypothetical idea of how Dean would have handled it if all things being equal and Dean was the person in the middle between someone and their brother without all the baggage that Dean has.

 

But as I noted above Bobby and Dean are coming at it from very different places.  So I don't think anyone can really be sure what Dean would have done but I do think he would have not invalidated the person's feelings on the subject and that is mostly what my commentary about Bobby with Dean. Bobby invalidates Dean's opinions and ideas and feelings throughout the show after this point. It wasn't nearly as bad in earlier seasons but that is probably also because Bobby had not been elevated to "psuedo father" status. IMO once they put that spin on Bobby's role in the boys' lives I expected a lot more positive support from Bobby.

 

I have a differing opinion that Sam took what Dean said about Sam's leaving and never coming back as the same as John simply because the situations are completely different. I just have a really hard time with blaming the victim here and Dean was a victim of Sam's addiction. Sam was going to leave with Ruby one way or the other. IMO, it was Sam that was basically giving Dean the ultimatum. Dean was going to have to accept working with Sam and Ruby because Sam wasn't going to change his mind. Essentially they were at an impasse but Sam made everything worse because he said Dean was weak and ineffectual and then proceeded to beat the shit out of Dean. IMO, Dean even shouting at the door with his final ultimatum was pointless because Sam had already made his choice.

 

 

And for Bobby to even bring up John IMO was dirty pool because what was the point of it? Good grief, John probably would have killed Sam the first time he saw him work with Ruby. I guess Sam should be grateful that John never saw that.

 

I know have a largely unpopular opinion about Bobby, but I really don't think he was all that and I think it's sad that they couldn't have just left Bobby as the curmudgeonly 'uncle'.

[DittyDotDot]

I just have a really hard time with blaming the victim here and Dean was a victim of Sam's addiction. Sam was going to leave with Ruby one way or the other. IMO, it was Sam that was basically giving Dean the ultimatum. Dean was going to have to accept working with Sam and Ruby because Sam wasn't going to change his mind. Essentially they were at an impasse but Sam made everything worse because he said Dean was weak and ineffectual and then proceeded to beat the shit out of Dean. IMO, Dean even shouting at the door with his final ultimatum was pointless because Sam had already made his choice.

 

I have a hard time seeing either were the victim. They had fight they both were willing participants in and just because Dean lost the fight because Sam was roided up on demon blood does not equate victim in my mind. Dean gave an ultimatum, then Sam gave an ultimatum, Sam said Dean was weak, Dean says Sam's a monster; punching ensues. I'm sorry, but I think they both were acting poorly and they both hold the responsibility for how it ended. Was it awful that Sam punched Dean in his single manly tear and that he tried to choke Dean? Sure, but I think I would be doing a huge disservice to Dean to say he was a "victim" in that fight. To me, it just woobifies Dean and I don't like to think of Dean that way.

[catrox14]

I don't think looking at Sam or Dean as a victim this season woobifies either one of them.

 

Sam was a victim of Azazel since he was a baby. But he's survived. I just don't have any issues with saying that Sam and Dean have both been victimized over the course of the show and they have both been survivors.  No shame is surviving.

Edited September 13, 2014 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

I can definitely see them as being victims of their circumstances throughout their entire life, but I'm talking about this fight only. I don't see either of them as victims in this particular fight. No one was preying on the other during this particular fight. It was an argument that escalated out of control and turned into a punching and choking match, but saying that Dean was Sam's victim, in this particular fight, feels to me like a huge disservice to Dean, IMO.

[7kstar]

one of the things that I saw about Bobby was that he was becoming the father figure, not that he was a father figure when the boys were growing up.

 

I had an uncle that I only saw a few times a year.  Some believe we were very close, but we didn't see each other that often and most of the time he was supportive and helpful when dealing with family issues.  But once he got really upset and said something not so nice because he couldn't or wouldn't see the issue about his sister.  I kind of put Bobby in this role.

 

It leaves Dean watching out and caring for Sam on a daily basis, and there could have been adults that Dean didn't realize that were watching out for him if things got bad every once in awhile, but I doubt it was often. 

 

I blame the writing for all the messiness of the princess speech and season 6 & 7.  Some fans loved it so they made it bigger thinking they were giving the fans what they wanted.  But some of the stuff Bobby says and does, makes you shake your head. 

 

I agree that Bobby didn't know everything that went down when Dean told Sam if you walk out, but I also see that as "hey, let's repeat what happened with John and Sam with Dean and Sam".  They do like to use the same things in a different way over and over.

 

Was I happy with some of the stuff they have had Bobby do and say, nope.  But it was written to give the excuse to do certain actions.  No long term effects were ever considered.  So that why I choose to ignore some of it, as I do find it out of character for Bobby.  Bobby always tried to support both brothers, but he also did favor Dean more than Sam.  So yes, I do agree Dean was his favorite but that doesn't mean he can't like Sam a lot.

 

For me, not being able to find Sam shows just how little he knew how to find Sam.  He didn't really know Sam well enough to figure  it out  and the whole purpose for Dean finding Sam so quickly was that he did know his brother inside and out.  Sam doesn't.

 

Personally I don't think the writers know how to write things that deep, and I think they just go hey this would be cool and do it.  Listening to Ben talk about how he wrote some of the dark stuff, really supports this idea. 

 

So I'm on the fence, I hate some of things that Bobby did and I do like Bobby still.  But I do wish they hadn't done some of the speeches in the matter they did because I don't think they intended the outcome that came afterwards.  JMV.