catrox14 June 1, 2016 Share June 1, 2016 1 minute ago, SueB said: It's like the transporters on Star Trek.... these things work when the plot needs them to and fails when the plot needs them to. Would have accepted "Plotonium" 1 Link to comment
auntvi June 1, 2016 Share June 1, 2016 I just assumed that Sam was super strong with all that, you know, working out he was doing. =O Don't remember if it was the same episode, but Soulless!Sam admits that he doesn't sleep. That would make him similar to angels, or at any rate not entirely human. So maybe he had access to some leftover latent powers. 1 Link to comment
catrox14 June 1, 2016 Share June 1, 2016 Gods help me. Hellatus may already be sending me over the edge. I did a thing. I'm confused and upset by it. Trigger Warning for ..."Bloodlines" I....I...watched "Bloodlines" again. I'm so sorry...but I did it for a reason. It was research into music cues because I was REALLY distracted by the music cues in "Alpha and Omega" related to LadyMcStopShootingSam and I thought wait..was that in Bloodlines? The music was so bad with her introduction..and I think there were tones that share the DNA with Bloodlines. And this TERRIFIES me. MAN, the OVERLY DRAMATIC VIOLINS. LOL so so bad. I can't even believe that Jay Gruska wrote the score. Honestly though, I did think the actor that played David, the shapeshifter was good. I wouldn't have even minded if he showed up as a shifter in actual SPN. Ennis had some potential as a young hunter. But you don't send Dean and Sam into a backdoor pilot. You make the characters come to their neck of the woods and into their universe, not the other way around. I mean I still don't understand why they went to Chicago in the first place. LOL. The funniest part ot me is that Dean is just SO DONE with the whole thing and my head!canon is that it was really Jensen who was just done with the whole fucking thing. And truly when I look at as some kind of terribad "French Mistake episode of SPN it's much more tolerable. Like it is my own MST3000 snark watch episode. Dean got the best line of the episode though "Listen, uh, Detective... Your, uh, perp fits a certain profile. Now, I could go into detail, but I'm -- I'm not going to..." and he just shuts the door in the cop's face. I legit LOL'd at that. But yeah it still sucks out loud and was just SOOO NOT Supernatural and I resent it's existence in the legacy. OHHHHH if Mary coming back changes the history of the show...and it removes Bloodlines from the universe...it might be worth it.... Anyway, I feel dirty now. I need whiskey and a shower. I'm so sorry. Link to comment
MysteryGuest June 1, 2016 Share June 1, 2016 8 hours ago, SueB said: I just presume Sam was such a BadAss as a hunter that the first thing he did was untie himself and played possum until they got done with the testing. He also untied himself pretty quickly in #Thinman so I presume it's just a hunter skill they've developed. And he would do whatever it took to get out of the panic room. Since Dean had already done it himself, he probably figured Sam would find a way. But normally they have to cut through the ropes somehow with either their knife, or a piece of glass, etc. They don't just shake them off. And Dean got out of the panic room only by fooling Castiel into opening the door, right? At least I think that's what happened. Anyway, it's obviously not a big deal, but it's always made me wonder if I had missed something that would have explained it. 1 Link to comment
DittyDotDot June 1, 2016 Share June 1, 2016 11 hours ago, MysteryGuest said: I'm watching season six's Family Matters, and I'm confused about something. After Cas determines that Sam has no soul, he asks Dean to untie him from the chair. Dean says no, and Sam says "I didn't want it to come to this", and just unties himself and stands up. He then goes on to say "you're not going to hold me, not here, not in the panic room, etc." How does Sam's not having a soul somehow give him superpowers to just untie himself or unlock himself from the panic room? I never understood that scene and I still don't. WIZARDS!!! Yeah, that's a puzzler. I enjoyed many things about Soulless Sam, but did not enjoy the writers continually coming up with crazy things Sam could suddenly do simply because he didn't have a soul. The only thing I can come up with is that Sam wasn't actually tied all that well and, since he wasn't being bogged down by emotions, was able to "think" a way out of the situation. Usually when someone is tied up they're scared or angry and can't always think clearly. Sam didn't have all those emotions hindering him. But yeah, "wizards" works just as well. ;) 1 Link to comment
DittyDotDot June 8, 2016 Share June 8, 2016 From the Home thread... 2 hours ago, auntvi said: So Sam never does find out why Mary was sorry? I'm wracking my tired brain and I can't remember it ever being clear. 2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said: Yes, in S4. Reveal hidden contents Mary made the deal with Yellow Eyes that eventually led to Sam being infected with demon blood as an infant. She didn't know that's what Yellow Eyes would want, but basically Mary is sorry for damning Sam. And, I think also sorry for them eventually being raised as hunters. Which she did not want. 41 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: Not definitively... Reveal hidden contents Sam finds out that he was fed demon blood and that Mary seemed to know Azazel somehow in the first part of the season 2 finale, but it is Dean who finds out about the deal in "In the Beginning." And all we know for sure that Dean tells Sam about the past (in "Metamorphosis") is that Mary was a hunter, and that their grandparents were murdered. But there were details Dean left out, like he didn't tell Sam about the demon blood, because Sam revealed that he knew that on his own, and Dean was angry and defensive that Sam hadn't told him - which is kind of hypocritical, in my opinion, since he wasn't going to tell Sam either - but nonetheless Sam was all apologetic and Dean was defensive and the conversation devolved to "whatevers" before we found out if Dean told Sam about the deal. Considering that Dean was going to leave out the demon blood detail, my guess is that he didn't tell Sam about Mary's deal either, but we never know for sure. But, I think it's a reasonable conclusion Dean did tell him because Sam says "It's just, our parents. And now we find out our grandparents too? Our whole family murdered and for what? So Yellow Eyes could get in my nursery and bleed in my mouth?" Which suggests to me he knows Yellow Eyes was making the deals for access to these kids' houses and he already knew what Yellow Eyes did with that access. And then there's the little part in All Hell Breaks Loose I where Yellow Eyes shows Sam what happened that night and Mary recognized Yellow Eyes. Plus, Sam doesn't seem to be in the dark about it at any point later in the series. I guess they've never specifically spoken about it, that I remember, but my sense always was that he knows what went down. 1 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 June 8, 2016 Share June 8, 2016 5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said: From the Home thread... But, I think it's a reasonable conclusion Dean did tell him because Sam says "It's just, our parents. And now we find out our grandparents too? Our whole family murdered and for what? So Yellow Eyes could get in my nursery and bleed in my mouth?" Which suggests to me he knows Yellow Eyes was making the deals for access to these kids' houses and he already knew what Yellow Eyes did with that access. And then there's the little part in All Hell Breaks Loose I where Yellow Eyes shows Sam what happened that night and Mary recognized Yellow Eyes. Plus, Sam doesn't seem to be in the dark about it at any point later in the series. I guess they've never specifically spoken about it, that I remember, but my sense always was that he knows what went down. (Oh, thank you for bringing this over @DittyDotDot - I was having a hard time getting rid of the spoiler tags, so this is easier.) I see what you are saying, but I still have so many questions. Like: how did Dean tell Sam about the deals without telling him about the demon blood? What did he tell Sam about why Azazel made the deals if he didn't tell Sam that part? And the deal didn't have anything to do with their grandparents being killed per se - that was because Azazel took interest in Mary. So for me it seems pretty vague exactly what Dean told Sam. I guess it could be concluded Dean did tell him, but if so, I think I would've expected a little bit different reaction and conversation than just Sam saying everyone was murdered. Maybe mention something more specific like "poor Mom, having to make that choice..." Something. It seems weird that Sam was asking stuff like "how'd she look?" and "Was she happy?" if Dean had told him that their mom had watched John murdered and made a deal to get him back. That's why I thought the whole scene was weird and vague. But what really bugs? - Considering that this was a big thing in Sam's story, it is somewhat annoying that 1) Sam finding out (if he did) happened offscreen 2) it's completely vague (for me anyway) exactly what Dean told Sam about it, and 3) any potential reaction Sam might have had about finding out and how he felt about it was completely skipped over so it could instead be turned into another anvil of Sam is lying to Dean. (Again, never mind that Dean wasn't going to tell Sam the exact same detail that Sam didn't tell Dean, though in Sam's defense he was dead at the time, and it might've slipped his mind for a while until he decided maybe he'd keep that detail from Dean considering Dean was going to die, and maybe he didn't want to upset him further. At least Sam did apologize...) Link to comment
catrox14 June 8, 2016 Share June 8, 2016 (edited) Sam knew in s2 about the demon blood. Dean was sent back to the past in s4 to to be shown that he couldn't change destiny, meaning Azazel was always going to bleed into Sam's mouth as a baby and Mary was going to make the deal for John's life. Mary never knew the deal was going to involve bleeding into Sam's mouth . Dean's task was to stop Sam from using his psychic powers. Dean didn't know that the demon blood was a thing that Sam was doing until much later. So I don't quite see the hypocrisy on Dean's part. I'm trying to sort out the timeline. Sam told Dean in 4.04 that he knew about the demon blood for a year. So he knew before Dean went to Hell because Dean was in Hell for 4 months. So Sam knew 6 to 8 months before Dean went to Hell. So then IMO it has to be referencing back to when Azazel told him about the demon blood before Sam was killed and brought back to life. Edited June 8, 2016 by catrox14 Link to comment
DittyDotDot June 8, 2016 Share June 8, 2016 (edited) 31 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: (Oh, thank you for bringing this over @DittyDotDot - I was having a hard time getting rid of the spoiler tags, so this is easier.) I see what you are saying, but I still have so many questions. Like: how did Dean tell Sam about the deals without telling him about the demon blood? What did he tell Sam about why Azazel made the deals if he didn't tell Sam that part? And the deal didn't have anything to do with their grandparents being killed per se - that was because Azazel took interest in Mary. So for me it seems pretty vague exactly what Dean told Sam. I guess it could be concluded Dean did tell him, but if so, I think I would've expected a little bit different reaction and conversation than just Sam saying everyone was murdered. Maybe mention something more specific like "poor Mom, having to make that choice..." Something. It seems weird that Sam was asking stuff like "how'd she look?" and "Was she happy?" if Dean had told him that their mom had watched John murdered and made a deal to get him back. That's why I thought the whole scene was weird and vague. But what really bugs? - Considering that this was a big thing in Sam's story, it is somewhat annoying that 1) Sam finding out (if he did) happened offscreen 2) it's completely vague (for me anyway) exactly what Dean told Sam about it, and 3) any potential reaction Sam might have had about finding out and how he felt about it was completely skipped over so it could instead be turned into another anvil of Sam is lying to Dean. (Again, never mind that Dean wasn't going to tell Sam the exact same detail that Sam didn't tell Dean, though in Sam's defense he was dead at the time, and it might've slipped his mind for a while until he decided maybe he'd keep that detail from Dean considering Dean was going to die, and maybe he didn't want to upset him further. At least Sam did apologize...) I guess I don't know if Sam knows, for sure, but it just seems really hinky he wouldn't know. I mean, Yellow Eyes entire plan was to build a vessel and all...maybe this is something they can address in S12 with Mary's reappearance? Anyway, I've always found Sam's reaction to Mary in The Song Remains The Same rather heartbreaking for more reasons than he's meeting his mother for the first time. It takes on a whole different dimension if Sam does know Mary made a deal that unknowingly damned him. I'm glad they didn't go the route of Sam holding a grudge against Mary, but it is kinda heartbreaking to see them come face to face at that point, to me. 21 minutes ago, catrox14 said: Sam knew in s2 about the demon blood. Dean was sent back to the past in s4 to to be shown that he couldn't change destiny, meaning Azazel was always going to bleed into Sam's mouth as a baby and Mary was going to make the deal for John's life. Mary never knew the deal was going to involve bleeding into Sam's mouth. Dean's task was to stop Sam from using his psychic powers. Dean didn't know that the demon blood was a thing that Sam was doing until much later. So I don't quite see the hypocrisy on Dean's part. Dean didn't know Sam was drinking demon blood, but he did know that Yellow Eyes had infected Sam as an infant. Yellow Eyes told him that's what he was doing with the psychic kids when he was sent back in time in In The Beginning. I think @AwesomO4000 was referring to how Dean was bitching at Sam in Metamorphosis for not sharing that he'd learned he was infected with demon blood a whole year earlier when Dean didn't share with Sam when Dean learned this fact either. I'm not sure that Dean wasn't planning on telling Sam that little detail and just got derailed by Sam's questions, but one Winchester calling the other out for secret-keeping is nothing short of the pot calling the kettle black, IMO. Edited June 8, 2016 by DittyDotDot Link to comment
auntvi June 8, 2016 Share June 8, 2016 12 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said: I guess I don't know if Sam knows, for sure, but it just seems really hinky he wouldn't know. I mean, Yellow Eyes entire plan was to build a vessel and all...maybe this is something they can address in S12 with Mary's reappearance? Azazel showed Sam what happened when he was 6 months old but not the deal that Mary made, that resulted in Azazel giving him demon blood. But it seems to me that it should be a big deal plot-wise and character development wise for Sam to find out that own his mother made the deal that would affect his whole life. 1 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 June 8, 2016 Share June 8, 2016 26 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said: I think @AwesomO4000 was referring to how Dean was bitching at Sam in Metamorphosis for not sharing that he'd learned he was infected with demon blood a whole year earlier when Dean didn't share with Sam when Dean learned this fact either. Yes, thank you DDD, that's what I was trying to convey. And I guess that's what makes the scene so weird and vague to me, because it would seem to be an odd detail to skip if Dean had told the whole story concerning the deal, because getting the permission to come into the homes to drip demon blood into the babies' mouths was the whole purpose of Azazel making the deals in the first place, so it would seem an odd detail to skip for later if Dean did plan to tell Sam about it. So that's what makes me question exactly what Dean did tell Sam about what he learned if he left out that important detail. Link to comment
SueB June 8, 2016 Share June 8, 2016 I'm confused about the confusion. Quote SAM It's just, our parents. And now we find out our grandparents too? Our whole family murdered and for what? So Yellow Eyes could get in my nursery and bleed in my mouth? If Sam didn't know Mary made a deal, then how does what I put in bold make sense. What explanation would Dean have used to say why the parents were killed and that it was tied to getting into Sam's nursery. If Sam didn't know, then Dean would have had to fabricate a pretty complex lie to shield him from it. And Dean was in NO mood for that. He'd just found out about Sam using his powers. So.. it DID happen offscreen. Somewhere between the motel beatdown and when we pickup back in the car. And we ARE seeing Sam's reaction. And his reaction is incredulous that YED was so insistent on making a deal with Mary that he killed three people (and then resurrected John back) just to get his way. Sam is already feeling "other"... this just adds to his feeling that YED (not Mary) was insistent on getting Sam to be a special kid. The dialog IS a bit clunky because it really wasn't just so YED could bleed into Sammy's mouth. It was so that Sammy would be a special kid. But they put in the bit about bleeding to make it another "oops" moment where it became clear that Sam knew about the demon blood: Quote DEAN Sam, I never said anything about demon blood. SAM looks guilty. DEAN You knew about that? SAM still doesn't look at DEAN. SAM Yeah, for about a year. DEAN looks out through the window again, eyes on the road. DEAN A whole year? SAM I should have told you. I'm sorry. DEAN You've been saying that a lot lately, Sam. But whatever. You don't want to tell me, you don't have to. It's fine. SAM Dean. SAM looks over at DEAN, who's focusing on the road. SAM Whatever. SAM sighs. So... the emphasis was on brother vs brother angst and not Sam vs Mary angst. Plus, as phrased, it sure seems like Sam sees YED's actions as extreme and Mary was in a no-win situation. Finally, Sam knew for over a year that Mary knew YED when she walked into the nursery (Mary: "You!"; Sam: She knew you!). So whether or not he knew HOW she knew him, he had to suspect SOMETHING was up and kept it to himself. So, IMO, he had already experienced the shock of knowing somehow his mother knew YED. This retelling showed how she was trapped into making a deal she didn't understand. 1 Link to comment
DittyDotDot June 8, 2016 Share June 8, 2016 (edited) 25 minutes ago, auntvi said: Azazel showed Sam what happened when he was 6 months old but not the deal that Mary made, that resulted in Azazel giving him demon blood. But it seems to me that it should be a big deal plot-wise and character development wise for Sam to find out that own his mother made the deal that would affect his whole life. Well, sure. Still, though, I can see how this show didn't think they needed to show Sam learning something they already showed Dean learning. It wouldn't be the first time they had an important character scene off-screen. I'm convinced Sam knows Mary made the deal. Granted I didn't see Sam learn this, but the show has never suggested to me Sam doesn't know. Plus, I think it makes Sam kinda foolish to have not put the bread crumbs together. But, YMMV. 10 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: Yes, thank you DDD, that's what I was trying to convey. And I guess that's what makes the scene so weird and vague to me, because it would seem to be an odd detail to skip if Dean had told the whole story concerning the deal, because getting the permission to come into the homes to drip demon blood into the babies' mouths was the whole purpose of Azazel making the deals in the first place, so it would seem an odd detail to skip for later if Dean did plan to tell Sam about it. So that's what makes me question exactly what Dean did tell Sam about what he learned if he left out that important detail. I can imagine Dean told Sam Mary made a deal to save John, but either didn't get to the part about the demon blood, or was purposely withholding that fact, before Sam started asking questions and kinda blurted that fact out. I guess I expect Sam could've put it together given that he knew what Yellow Eyes had done coupled with Mary's "I'm sorry" in Home. I don't know how it went down because we didn't see it, but I can't wrap my head around the idea that Sam doesn't know. Sorry! Edited June 8, 2016 by DittyDotDot 1 Link to comment
companionenvy June 8, 2016 Share June 8, 2016 I think it is pretty clear that Dean told Sam the essentials of the Winchester family backstory. He apparently left out the detail about what Azazel did to Sam, which I think is unsurprising under the circumstances: what the brothers are going to be most interested in is a) a chance to delve into their mother's history and b) evidence of how far back the supernatural interference in their family extends. I can see how the mechanics of how precisely Azazel gave Sam the powers both brothers already know he possesses would hardly matter to Dean under the circumstances. I mean, it had by that point been obvious for a while that YED had done something to give his "special children" their powers. Feeding them his blood is particularly ghoulish, but had it been a spell of some sort, it would have come to more or less the same thing. Link to comment
catrox14 June 8, 2016 Share June 8, 2016 (edited) Here's what I think went down. Mary did not know about YED's plan. In HOME, she was apologizing for making a deal that left Sam motherless for his whole life. Dean himself only learned about the YED's plan when he was sent to the past literally the day before he found out about Sam's shenanigans with Ruby and after being out of Hell for like a few days. Dean was livid with Sam and punched him because of it. IMO Dean's thoughts were never on the YED and demon blood so he just never said anything. I don't think it was a big secret, just something that IMO Dean didn't think was a factor. The only thing Castiel said was that the angels didn't know what YED's end game was and that Dean would have stop Sam before they did. IMO Sam put two and two together on his own. He was told in s2 finale episodes that was YED's plan. So he knew about this before Dean ever went to Hell and before Dean was sent back in time. Dean came back and told Sam that Mary made a deal and Sam IMO sussed out that was why YED came to his crib that night. I think the question that needs answering is do the boys believe that Mary KNEW that was the term of the deal? I'm pretty sure they don't know that she didn't know. Edited June 8, 2016 by catrox14 Link to comment
DittyDotDot June 8, 2016 Share June 8, 2016 (edited) 47 minutes ago, catrox14 said: I think the question that needs answering is do the boys believe that Mary KNEW that was the term of the deal? I'm pretty sure they don't know that she didn't know. I think all they know for sure is that the deals Yellow Eyes was making was for access and I also think they are aware Yellow Eyes wasn't all that specific about what he wanted when he made the deals. Dean talked with the kid of who made the deal for the "beatings to stop". The kid told him he said he'd come calling in 10 years and want something then. And I would expect Dean talked with the woman who Yellow Eyes said he'd want something from later but not anything she'd miss. The one who was a friend of Mary's and whose house they were at when Dean tried to shoot Yellow Eyes. So, my sense is they figured Mary didn't know what Yellow Eyes truly wanted, but whatever it was she probably thought the consequences would fall to her and no one else. But, that's just speculation because, yet again, it wasn't an on-screen conversation. Edited June 8, 2016 by DittyDotDot 1 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 June 8, 2016 Share June 8, 2016 3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said: Plus, I think it makes Sam kinda foolish to have not put the bread crumbs together. But, YMMV. I guess I expect Sam could've put it together given that he knew what Yellow Eyes had done coupled with Mary's "I'm sorry" in Home. I don't know how it went down because we didn't see it, but I can't wrap my head around the idea that Sam doesn't know. Sorry! While I can see your point, and you are likely right, I can also see Sam not putting the bread crumbs together if Dean hadn't told him about the deal. Sam knew that he was fed demon blood by Azazel, and that Mary knew the demon, but after learning that Mary was a hunter and that he (the YED) had visited her family in the past since Dean told him the story, that could have been the connection to how Mary knew / came across the demon. Sam knew demons didn't need permission to possess people, and demons hadn't been shown to need permission to get in side anywhere before either, so I could see Sam not putting together that in his particular case, the demon needed permission to go inside and do what he did. The YED even told Sam before the flashback that it wasn't about Mary and that she was just in the wrong place at the wrong time - "It wasn’t about her. It was about you. It’s always been about you." So from that, there was no indication that Mary had anything to do with what happened beyond her knowing the YED previously from the time that Dean visited. Now if Sam knew the timetable, that is if he knew when it was that Dean went back in time to - and that's a detail we don't know if Dean shared - then Sam might've been able to put together the ten year gap and figured out that a deal was involved. But still I wouldn't even blame Sam if he hadn't done that, because they hadn't come across any demons who required a deal before except crossroads demons. But I can also see why it makes sense that Sam would know. I still would like to have seen Sam's reaction to finding out. I imagine that there would be mixed emotions on finding out what Mary had done, but at the same time knowing that it wasn't just his fault that it all happened as he had so long believed. 1 Link to comment
DittyDotDot June 10, 2016 Share June 10, 2016 (edited) From the Faith Thread: Quote HOLY SHIT. In the S10 200th special, they talk about how Faith was a pivotal episode. It certainly WAS. Brings in God, brings in the Reapers. Sam has Faith, Dean is a skeptic. And THEN... Dean is saved. Did Chuck do it? Was that Angel influence? WHO moved Roy's heart? Because I have to believe that Roy got the nudge to pick Dean from Heaven or Chuck... to keep the 'plan' alive. First, even though I don't care for the tone of the episode, I agree Faith is a pivotal episode for this show. Not just because the show grew up and all, but looking back you can see other things that have come to fruition are seeded here. Granted, it's all by accident, but that's kinda the show, if you ask me. Anyhoo, It's very interesting in hindsight to have Roy say he looked into Dean's heart, and he just stood out from all the rest. "A young man with an important purpose. A job to do. And it isn't finished." For me, I prefer to think the angels didn't start "fixing" things for the Winchesters until after they saved Dean from Hell. It seems to me they mostly set things in motion and then sat back to watch it all play out. But then Dean kinda became a cog in their wheel by not blindly following them like they wanted, so they were forced to become more active players at that point. I tend to think God was always present, even if he wasn't physically present--if for nothing else than Sam and Dean surviving the multitude of beat downs over the years that should have killed them (even if they did leave them somewhat brain damaged). So, I'm going with it being God doing the choosing here. I still don't believe God knew exactly how it would all play out, but I do think he was pulling for humanity and I think he knew humanity's best option was to have Dean Winchester alive. Could be a fun alternative timeline episode for them to explore this issue more, though. Dean dies at the beginning of the story...it would change just about everything, for me. Edited June 10, 2016 by DittyDotDot 4 Link to comment
7kstar June 10, 2016 Share June 10, 2016 (edited) 38 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said: Granted, it's all by accident, but that's kinda the show, if you ask me. 38 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said: Anyhoo, It's very interesting in hindsight to have Roy say he looked into Dean's heart, and he just stood out from all the rest. "A young man with an important purpose. A job to do. And it isn't finished." I tend to think God was always present, even if he wasn't physically present--if for nothing else than Sam and Dean surviving the multitude of beat downs over the years that should have killed them (even if they did leave them somewhat brain damaged). I think that is one of the interesting things about this show. How many things by accident and maybe a very loosely thread creates so many interesting questions. Things that are important are overlooked and things that don't need as much attention gets beaten to death with a dead horse. I could see God knowing that Dean had to survive for a little longer in order to stop Sam from being twisted. It also might be a reason that God sends the message in Dark of the Moon that he's done. If he had been saving Dean and Sam all along, then maybe he finally reached the point that this story has to play out however it needs to go. After all he was fine with Dean being a Demon and wearing the mark. 38 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said: So, I'm going with it being God doing the choosing here. I still don't believe God knew exactly how it would all play out, but I do think he was pulling for humanity in the end and I think he knew humanity's best option was to have Dean Winchester alive. Could be a fun alternative timeline episode for them to explore this issue more, though. Dean dies at the beginning of the story...it would change just about everything, for me. Now if they really wanted to breathe new life in the show, this would be a really cool choice. I think there is so much potential in next season but also prepared for more not so great story telling. But if they were smart they would pick up some of the many wasted threads and use it with a twist. I think writers are stuck in thinking a certain way from how they are taught to write and that leads to thinking in a stuck box story line. If they got you can do both character development and mystery this show could have explored some really interesting ideas, instead of just dropping hints and leaving too many interesting questions unanswered. IMO :) Edited June 10, 2016 by 7kstar Link to comment
SueB June 10, 2016 Share June 10, 2016 I tend to agree that it was God. However, I think the Angels were the ones who had a Cupid hook up John & Mary. In this instance, I think they might either were asleep at the switch or WORSE... they were going to have a Reaper direct him to HELL... where he would break. God might have looked at that and said "nope"... that's not right,,,if Dean goes to Hell he has to go for a real reason, not where the 'fix is in'. That would probably offend God's Free Will sensibilities. So my new ex post facto (retcon) head canon... Dean dying was just bad luck (it COULD have been the Angels nudged the situation along in this case because Azazel was circling Sam but Fate might have squealed on them so I'm going with bad luck...life of a hunter) The Angels planned to send a dead Dean to Hell when he died (because he needed to become the Righteous Man) God looked at that was was pissed that they would arrange a Hell Transfer to someone he felt had an important job to do, so when Sam found the faith healer... God nudged a little in Dean's favor Dean lives, the Angels are pissed and have to wait 18 months before they get their chance again. Link to comment
DittyDotDot June 11, 2016 Share June 11, 2016 42 minutes ago, SueB said: I tend to agree that it was God. However, I think the Angels were the ones who had a Cupid hook up John & Mary. In this instance, I think they might either were asleep at the switch or WORSE... they were going to have a Reaper direct him to HELL... where he would break. God might have looked at that and said "nope"... that's not right,,,if Dean goes to Hell he has to go for a real reason, not where the 'fix is in'. That would probably offend God's Free Will sensibilities. I just think the angels figured once they made sure Sam and Dean existed by hooking up John and Mary, everything else would fall into place. And it did up until Dean turned out to be less malleable than they expected. But this makes sense too. Since I'm in mid-S4 right now, I've really been thinking about Uriel and how he was actually working for the arc angels, but neither he nor arc angels didn't knew that. Or did they? Link to comment
AwesomO4000 June 11, 2016 Share June 11, 2016 3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said: Since I'm in mid-S4 right now, I've really been thinking about Uriel and how he was actually working for the arc angels, but neither he nor arc angels didn't knew that. Or did they? I apologize in advance if you know all of this, but since I've also thought about this and come to some conclusions, I thought I'd share my thinking/logic. Feel free to skip if you know all of this stuff. I don't think they did, because Uriel's purpose was the same as the archangels only in so far as he wanted to raise Lucifer also, but Uriel's - and his follower's - purpose was pretty much the opposite of what the archangels wanted. The archangels - who in this case were Raphael and Michael - wanted Lucifer raised so that Michael could kill him, thereby bringing about some kind of Rapture scenario whereas crazy-ass Uriel and his followers wanted to raise Lucifer so that Lucifer could lead / rule the angels. I think either would have been appalled by the other's plan, actually, especially if Michael knew about Uriel murdering other angels to further his purpose. And Uriel would've been against Michael and Raphael's plan to kill Lucifer. The first step to their respective plans just happened to be the same, but that was the only part that was the same. The main proof for me, however, that Uriel didn't know the entirety of Michael and Raphael's plan was that he was so antagonistic to Sam, so he didn't seem to know - or he was playing a really good con - that Sam was Lucifer's true vessel or that Sam would break the last seal. So I'm not quite sure how Uriel planned to raise Lucifer. Interestingly though, Uriel did seem to know - probably because Castiel saved him from hell - that Dean was part of the archangel's plan somehow, except that Uriel likely thought that the archangel's plan was to stop the apocalypse/Lucifer from rising (since that was the angel "party line") which was why he sabotaged Alastair's trap so that Dean would be killed - thereby ensuring the seals would not be stopped and Lucifer would be set free. 1 Link to comment
SueB June 11, 2016 Share June 11, 2016 8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: I apologize in advance if you know all of this, but since I've also thought about this and come to some conclusions, I thought I'd share my thinking/logic. Feel free to skip if you know all of this stuff. I don't think they did, because Uriel's purpose was the same as the archangels only in so far as he wanted to raise Lucifer also, but Uriel's - and his follower's - purpose was pretty much the opposite of what the archangels wanted. The archangels - who in this case were Raphael and Michael - wanted Lucifer raised so that Michael could kill him, thereby bringing about some kind of Rapture scenario whereas crazy-ass Uriel and his followers wanted to raise Lucifer so that Lucifer could lead / rule the angels. I think either would have been appalled by the other's plan, actually, especially if Michael knew about Uriel murdering other angels to further his purpose. And Uriel would've been against Michael and Raphael's plan to kill Lucifer. The first step to their respective plans just happened to be the same, but that was the only part that was the same. The main proof for me, however, that Uriel didn't know the entirety of Michael and Raphael's plan was that he was so antagonistic to Sam, so he didn't seem to know - or he was playing a really good con - that Sam was Lucifer's true vessel or that Sam would break the last seal. So I'm not quite sure how Uriel planned to raise Lucifer. Interestingly though, Uriel did seem to know - probably because Castiel saved him from hell - that Dean was part of the archangel's plan somehow, except that Uriel likely thought that the archangel's plan was to stop the apocalypse/Lucifer from rising (since that was the angel "party line") which was why he sabotaged Alastair's trap so that Dean would be killed - thereby ensuring the seals would not be stopped and Lucifer would be set free. Impeccable logic. 30 pts for Ravenclaw (or whatever your house is...). 1 Link to comment
DittyDotDot June 11, 2016 Share June 11, 2016 (edited) 12 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: I apologize in advance if you know all of this, but since I've also thought about this and come to some conclusions, I thought I'd share my thinking/logic. Feel free to skip if you know all of this stuff. I don't think they did, because Uriel's purpose was the same as the archangels only in so far as he wanted to raise Lucifer also, but Uriel's - and his follower's - purpose was pretty much the opposite of what the archangels wanted. The archangels - who in this case were Raphael and Michael - wanted Lucifer raised so that Michael could kill him, thereby bringing about some kind of Rapture scenario whereas crazy-ass Uriel and his followers wanted to raise Lucifer so that Lucifer could lead / rule the angels. I think either would have been appalled by the other's plan, actually, especially if Michael knew about Uriel murdering other angels to further his purpose. And Uriel would've been against Michael and Raphael's plan to kill Lucifer. The first step to their respective plans just happened to be the same, but that was the only part that was the same. The main proof for me, however, that Uriel didn't know the entirety of Michael and Raphael's plan was that he was so antagonistic to Sam, so he didn't seem to know - or he was playing a really good con - that Sam was Lucifer's true vessel or that Sam would break the last seal. So I'm not quite sure how Uriel planned to raise Lucifer. Interestingly though, Uriel did seem to know - probably because Castiel saved him from hell - that Dean was part of the archangel's plan somehow, except that Uriel likely thought that the archangel's plan was to stop the apocalypse/Lucifer from rising (since that was the angel "party line") which was why he sabotaged Alastair's trap so that Dean would be killed - thereby ensuring the seals would not be stopped and Lucifer would be set free. I keep going back and forth on it. I like the idea that the arc angels knew Uriel wasn't really with them, but they wanted the same thing, so didn't do anything about it. Figuring they would handle it once everyone got what they wanted. But then, I also think it's interesting how much of the universe working for the same goal--free Lucifer--but hardly any of them realized the others wanted the same thing. It probably would've been smarter for them to team up, rather than fighting each other. But of course the angels, even Uriel, wouldn't work with demons back then. Anyway, just something I was thinking about. Here's something else I've been thinking about: In When the Levee Breaks, Dean takes this oath from Castiel, "I give myself over wholly to serve God and you guys." I've just been contemplating if Dean has been technically in service to God all these years? Thinky thoughts. Edited June 11, 2016 by DittyDotDot Link to comment
SueB June 11, 2016 Share June 11, 2016 6 hours ago, DittyDotDot said: Here's something else I've been thinking about: In When the Levee Breaks, Dean takes this oath from Castiel, "I give myself over wholly to serve God and you guys." I've just been contemplating if Dean has been technically in service to God all these years? Thinky thoughts. Well I'm glad you asked... because that's EXACTLY what I was thinking. All of S11, I felt that Dean was Chuck's last ditch effort. And ya know, technically, he might still have been. He did nod his head at Dean when he talked about her getting to know the world and understand it. And Dean was an A+ representative of Free Will the entire year with her. So it's a pity Dean's oath wasn't mentioned by Chuck. But since Dean was having none of it (Chuck's belief that he shouldn't be directly involved), that would have probably made things worse. And, at least from my POV, they played Chuck pretty straight in those last four episodes. First he was despondent and writing his memoirs. Next he was suicidal and lining up a way to just throw himself at her mercy in order to save his creation. Then he decided to give it a go and fight her (but he really really hated putting her back in her trap). And finally, he was prepared to help humanity kill her in order to preserve itself when he died. So, IMO, they sort of made Chuck have his own arc versus Chuck being the mastermind. And the mastermind I kept sensing was the writers... who were not really Chuck because they let Chuck be an actual character. Now, it's possible, that they will say later that Chuck believed Plan B (humanity, his "chosen") would always be the answer. That they would always step up and find a solution.... because in fact, that's what happened. Besides reluctantly telling them that light would kill her, it was Cas who came up with the idea of souls. And Crowley may have been playing the nay-sayer but he too went to get souls. And who knows, he may have tipped off Billie. Sam and Dean brought in a few dozen, Rowena made the bomb, and Billie brought the heavy ammo. It was God's creations who came up with a last ditch plan that put Dean in front of Amara, one more time. And though that plan didn't actually work (because she could sense the bomb), all those steps of cooperation for survival were kind of essential IMO to making a real shot and providing for that key moment when Dean once again asked God what he wanted. So Dean, the best representative of humanity that God could throw at her and she would listen, KNEW that this was a family tragedy he could prevent. And he was able to get through to Amara and get the conversation going. This is not to take anything away from Sam. Because there would have been drinking and sighing and no Plan B if Sam hadn't gotten them to pull their shit together. But Sam would not, IMO, have been a good representative for God to someone who was very bitter over the way God treated them. Dean had his own bitter feelings towards God. Sam was still somewhat in awe of God, from start to finish*. Dean treated God differently. He could see the problem for what it was, a family conflict, and he could relate to Amara better IMO. So, bottom line, yes. I think the writers could use the idea that Dean has been in the service of God since S4. He didn't kill the chick from Babylon after all. And I think Sam is as well. He may not have sworn allegiance like Dean, but these guys are two peas in a pod. "Saving people, hunting things". * Although, one of my favorite moments was Sam telling God to be less "lordly" and Chuck replies, "But... I am ..the Lord". I know people have a lot of problem with THAT being the resolution for God/Lucifer and the tone of the episode relatively to the two before it... but Chuck had some great lines. And I really enjoyed watching Sam wrap his head around working with God while it being.. God. 1 Link to comment
auntvi June 14, 2016 Share June 14, 2016 Apparently both Jared and Jensen have talked about the debacle that was the last 3 episodes of the season. And are gratified that fans noticed and commented on so many things that seemed off. On the one hand, it's heartening that both care so much that a lot of time and energy was spent trying to fix the eps or at least salvage something good. On the other hand, it's surprising that the showrunner let the wheels fall off the well-oiled machine. 1 Link to comment
DittyDotDot June 27, 2016 Share June 27, 2016 (edited) On 6/11/2016 at 5:41 PM, SueB said: Well I'm glad you asked... because that's EXACTLY what I was thinking. All of S11, I felt that Dean was Chuck's last ditch effort. And ya know, technically, he might still have been. He did nod his head at Dean when he talked about her getting to know the world and understand it. And Dean was an A+ representative of Free Will the entire year with her. [...] So, bottom line, yes. I think the writers could use the idea that Dean has been in the service of God since S4. He didn't kill the chick from Babylon after all. I wanted to wait to respond to this until I had gotten to 99 Problems and refreshed my memory, and then of course forgot. Anyhoo, It's interesting that Dean could kill the Whore. Is it because he took that vow back in S4 which made him God's servant regardless of will; was it because he is a righteous man acting in accordance with God's laws; or is it because Dean had already made up his mind to say yes to Michael and just hadn't acted on it yet? It's also really interesting in light of how they structured S11 with Amara saying he'd always help her and then he unwittingly did, over and over and over again. One could argue Dean was acting in accordance to God's will also. I just think I just like the idea of Dean being in the service of God, but also wanting to punch God in the face. Totally makes sense to me. Edited June 27, 2016 by DittyDotDot 5 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 July 1, 2016 Share July 1, 2016 (edited) Brought over from the "Trial and Error" episode thread: 2 hours ago, catrox14 said: My head!canon is that Dean's PTSD , the split with Benny, the betrayal by Sam (in Dean's view) stuff with Cas, Bobby's death all left him feeling like "Fuck it. If we have a chance to end everything, close the gates of Hell, etc that he will be done with fighting and if he dies in the process, so be it. " So I don't think it was necessarily rushing headlong but IMO for Dean, just being done with it all. I wind up hating this episode because they spent quite a bit of time setting up that Dean would be the right person to do the trials but NOPE in the final moments they switch it all over to Sam. Man that pissed me off so much. Grrrr. At least it wasn't 2.5 seasons of set up thrown away for fucking Adam... I'm not trying to start any kind of kerfuffle here when I ask "and then what?" if Dean had been the one to do the trials, because I really would want to know how that would have been better story-wise. Would the trials have been completed instead? Because if not, then I can imagine fans would have been angry that Dean had been set up to be the one to do the trials and be the hero only for it to have been called off at the end. If the trails weren't completed as happened with Sam, would Dean have been the one in a coma? And if so, would Sam have been the one to make the plea for Gadreel and have gotten the mark of Cain story? In my opinion, if Dean had been the one to do the trails, Sam would have been relegated to the non-supernatural story again (like the first half of the season) and the supportive, having to get in Dean's good graces story again (like for most of season 5, and continuing through late season 6 and much of season 7). I disliked the set up at the beginning of season 8, when it appeared that they were again going to go for a "Sam 'betrays' Dean and then has to spend untold episodes making it up to Dean" arc, and Dean doing the trials would've ended up being pretty much exactly that in my opinion. I was fine with it in season 5 - 7 and it was needed after what they'd done to Sam's character in season 4, but the set up in season 8 for a repeat was inferior, imo, and an even worse character assassination and therefore unwelcome. If Dean somehow also kept the mark of Cain storyline continuing through the conclusion with Amara, then he pretty much would've had all of the main storyline since the beginning of season 8 that didn't involve starting an apocalypse. I don't count Gadreel as a Sam storyline, since that was more about Dean's feelings and Gadreel's redemption than Sam, with even Sam touting Gadreel as being a "true friend" or whatever the hell they had him say in the end. There was some exploration of Sam's feelings of feeling "wrong," but it had nothing to do with the main plotline - which was about Dean and Abaddon and later Metatron and about Castiel and Gadreel saving the world from Metatron with an assist from Dean and Sam as a mostly useless spectator. And there was no bait and switch with Amara, since Dean was the one who saw that through and saved the world, but I, and others, pretty much called that one from the beginning of the season when we found out about the connection between Dean and Amara. And not only did Dean get to be the one to save the world, he did so while once again cleaning up the mess of one of his brothers. (He did the same for Castiel in season 6 and 7, and helped in season 8). I also called that Sam would get the blame as well, and we'll see how far that ends up going in season 12. The main way I can accept that is if Sam takes on that blame to spare Dean from Lady Go Screw Yourself Milady. At least that would be somewhat heroic. So in my opinion, since season 7 (and maybe since season 6), the trials arc - as crappy as it was, since little came from it - was really the only story arc Sam has had that didn't involve starting an apocalypse. Maybe just my opinion there, but there seems to be evidence to support it. Edited to add: I'm also not as upset about the bait and switch when it comes to Adam, because for me personally, I thought that saying "no" to Michael was the right call. For me, it was shown fairly well that Adam made a mistake by saying "yes" to Michael, and if Dean had said "yes" I thought it would've been a bad thing character-wise. It would've gone against his "we'll find a way to save everybody" stance. Sam saying "yes," hoping for the best, and only succeeding because Dean gave an assist made sense for Sam's character at that time - due to him 1) wanting to fix his mistake so badly and 2) being affected by all of that stupid demon blood he had to drink. Dean thinking he could say "yes" and beat Michael didn't seem to fit Dean's character at that point in time, both because he'd been suggesting caution against both Lilith and Lucifer for two seasons, and because I don't think I would've believed that Dean would've had the hubris to pull it off at that time. Just my opinion there, but I would've been disappointed in Dean if he'd said "yes." Edited July 1, 2016 by AwesomO4000 Apparently I wasn't done - big surprise there. : / 2 Link to comment
MysteryGuest July 1, 2016 Share July 1, 2016 I honestly don't understand the need to have Dean say yes to Michael. I never wanted him to, and when it looked for a while like he would, I was hoping against hope that he wouldn't. I get why Sam said yes to Lucifer, even though it wasn't supposed to go down the way it did. I may be in the minority, but I really don't have an issue with how season 5 ended. I don't even mind Adam being switched out at the end, though I do wish we'd at least get some resolution there. Even if it's just confirmed that he's actually not rotting in the cage, and was sent to heaven to be with his mother, as promised. I'll be perfectly happy if season 12 picks up where we left off in season 11, with the brothers actually working together, liking each other, talking things out, etc. I have hated the character assassination that both brothers have been subjected to by the writers (especially Sam), and I don't need to see any more of the manufactured angst. Write a decent, dramatic, scary story, and the drama will be there automatically. 2 Link to comment
catrox14 July 1, 2016 Share July 1, 2016 There was nothing in s8 that remotely hinted, telegraphed, foreshadowed that the MoC would become a thing when they went with Sam doing the trials after Dean was more or less set up to do them at least not that I could discern even in retrospect. To me, everything was set up as of Trial and Error to get Sam into the church to have his moment of guilt that I still don't understand. I mean he never actually apologized for not looking for Dean as part of his "confessions". If the show had been cancelled after s8 there would be no MoC. Nothing that happened in s9 actually changes my opinion of Trial and Error. I literally don't understand if they always intended for Sam to do the trials as Carver claims, why have Dean talk about it at all? Why doesn't Sam just say, "Dean, I have a lot to make up for with not looking for Kevin and not looking for you". I don't remember him saying anything about that. To me that's why the back half of s8 made little sense. But even with Sam doing the trials, Dean still could have had something active to do besides be Sam's cheerleader and caregiver. I'm glad that Dean got the MoC believe me, but I still don't see what that has to do with my opinion of Trial and Error as a craptastic episode of bait and switch. 1 Link to comment
catrox14 July 1, 2016 Share July 1, 2016 There was nothing in s8 that remotely hinted, telegraphed, foreshadowed that the MoC would become a thing when they went with Sam doing the trials after Dean was more or less set up to do them at least not that I could discern even in retrospect. To me, everything was set up as of Trial and Error to get Sam into the church to have his moment of guilt that I still don't understand. I mean he never actually apologized for not looking for Dean as part of his "confessions". If the show had been cancelled after s8 there would be no MoC. Nothing that happened in s9 actually changes my opinion of Trial and Error. I literally don't understand if they always intended for Sam to do the trials as Carver claims, why have Dean talk about it at all? Why doesn't Sam just say, "Dean, I have a lot to make up for with not looking for Kevin and not looking for you". I don't remember him saying anything about that. To me that's why the back half of s8 made little sense. But even with Sam doing the trials, Dean still could have had something active to do besides be Sam's cheerleader and caregiver. I'm glad that Dean got the MoC believe me, but I still don't see what that has to do with my opinion of Trial and Error as a craptastic episode of bait and switch. 1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said: And there was no bait and switch with Amara, I didn't say anything about a bait and switch with Amara. I referred to Adam. Link to comment
catrox14 July 1, 2016 Share July 1, 2016 20 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said: I honestly don't understand the need to have Dean say yes to Michael. I never wanted him to, and when it looked for a while like he would, I was hoping against hope that he wouldn't. I get why Sam said yes to Lucifer, even though it wasn't supposed to go down the way it did. I may be in the minority, but I really don't have an issue with how season 5 ended. I don't even mind Adam being switched out at the end, though I do wish we'd at least get some resolution there. Even if it's just confirmed that he's actually not rotting in the cage, and was sent to heaven to be with his mother, as promised. I'll be perfectly happy if season 12 picks up where we left off in season 11, with the brothers actually working together, liking each other, talking things out, etc. I have hated the character assassination that both brothers have been subjected to by the writers (especially Sam), and I don't need to see any more of the manufactured angst. Write a decent, dramatic, scary story, and the drama will be there automatically. It's not about the need to have Dean say yes to Michael, it's more that that built up this impending battle between the Chosen Vessels meaning Dean and Sam only to literally tell Dean he is "no longer a part of this story", at least not an active participant in the final battle IN MY OPINION. That's what is unsatisfying to me as a viewer. No one need agree with me on my dissatisfaction and to me they did the same thing in Trial and Error. Yes I was quite happy to have Dean get the MoC. It gave him a mytharc but to what end? I mean what did it actually do for Dean like at all in the end? Dean telling Amara that revenge wasn't worth it was not some kind of growth for Dean because he's more or less felt that way from the get go. I reallllly hope the return of Mary is not what he got out of the MoC because Dean knows that shit comes with a price. Maybe we'll find out in s12 what Dean having the MoC was doing for Dean cause right now, it's a mystery to me. Link to comment
MysteryGuest July 1, 2016 Share July 1, 2016 (edited) I agree that many of these storylines do not come to a satisfactory end, as evidenced by Demon Dean. If you're going to go there, then go there! But I personally don't think it's a deliberate snub against the actor or character, I think the writers just start out with this great idea and then either aren't talented enough to bring that arc to a satisfying end, or TPTB decide to just change course in mid-stream. And yes, it can be totally frustrating from a fan's perspective. I know I'm a bit of a broken record about this, but the biggest issue I have with the show is the quality of the writing. If the writing were better, I think we'd all be happier. I guess we'll need to wait to see whether this new crop of writers will be an improvement over what we've had in the past, or not so much. I'm hoping for the best, but preparing myself for the worst. Edited July 1, 2016 by MysteryGuest 2 Link to comment
catrox14 July 1, 2016 Share July 1, 2016 (edited) 22 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said: I agree that many of these storylines do not come to a satisfactory end, as evidenced by Demon Dean. If you're going to go there, then go there! But I personally don't think it's a deliberate snub against the actor or character, I wasn't trying to imply that it was a deliberate snub against the actor or the character. I think it's more that when the story starts getting too far away from being about Sam Winchester, the Chosen One, it has to veer back in that direction. And to do that it it's often at the expense of other character's story arcs or at least not written in a way that makes sense because of what they wrote before in order to get it back to that. ETA: That's not wank. The show has always been about Sam. It was set up that way from the get go. Most story arcs eventually veer back to that dynamic. Now in s11 they made the story about God more than Dean or Sam or Cas...and that was not satisfying to me either. Edited July 1, 2016 by catrox14 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 July 1, 2016 Share July 1, 2016 1 hour ago, catrox14 said: There was nothing in s8 that remotely hinted, telegraphed, foreshadowed that the MoC would become a thing when they went with Sam doing the trials after Dean was more or less set up to do them at least not that I could discern even in retrospect. To me, everything was set up as of Trial and Error to get Sam into the church to have his moment of guilt that I still don't understand. I mean he never actually apologized for not looking for Dean as part of his "confessions". If the show had been cancelled after s8 there would be no MoC. Maybe not, but Sam's coma was a direct consequence of not completing the trials which lead directly to Gadreel, Dean's guilt, and Dean's state of mind which lead to him taking on the mark of Cain. Also Abaddon - who they needed the mark to kill - came from season 8 and the trial arc as well. Quote Nothing that happened in s9 actually changes my opinion of Trial and Error. I literally don't understand if they always intended for Sam to do the trials as Carver claims, why have Dean talk about it at all? Why doesn't Sam just say, "Dean, I have a lot to make up for with not looking for Kevin and not looking for you". I don't remember him saying anything about that. To me that's why the back half of s8 made little sense. If Sam was allowed to apologize, then there would be less Dean angst. Whereas you see the show often being brought back to "Sam, the chosen one" even if it makes little sense, I often see the show choosing Dean angst and making sure that Dean is the wronged brother at the expense of Sam's character even when to me it doesn't make much sense. To me the first half of season 8 made little sense*, so the second half was an improvement. * Even Dean's purgatory arc which - to me - should've been about Dean gaining some self esteem instead of devolving into Sam the crappy brother making Dean all sad and self-esteemless again and whatever that thing about false memories was supposed to be about. Quote But even with Sam doing the trials, Dean still could have had something active to do besides be Sam's cheerleader and caregiver. I'm glad that Dean got the MoC believe me, but I still don't see what that has to do with my opinion of Trial and Error as a craptastic episode of bait and switch. At least Dean got to be an awesome brother. Sam didn't get that. They made him be a jerk with not looking for Dean and Kevin - and stubbornly supporting that stance - threatening to kill Benny, causing the whole Martin fiasco, and in general moping around complaining about this "great love" he was supposedly missing out on that they never even showed onscreen as such. For me, Dean's arcs were the far kinder ones and showed him in a far greater light than Sam's. Just my opinion there though. As for an active arc, Sam's "active" arc in season 8 resulted in nothing of any consequence. What was the conclusion of that arc supposed to mean for Sam? That he was suicidal? That he needed Dean to pay ultimate attention to him? I'm not sure myself. Sam also didn't have an active roll, in my opinion, for almost all of season 9 and a large part of season 10. When Sam finally did have an active arc, the message seemed to be that when Sam does something active, he causes an apocalypse... which Dean has to clean up much like demon Dean said in season 10 setting that whole thing up. So in my opinion, Sam could've done more in season 8 through 10 besides mope and say/do things that he was going to be proven wrong about - Benny, the whole "given the same circumstance, I wouldn't" / "I lied" thing, causing the apocalypse - but I didn't get that either. Again, I think Dean came out much better in all of those scenarios as well - even during the Gadreel situation, where Dean was the one who was proven to be right about everything except Kevin. Sam played cheerleader in season 11, but before that he got cast in a much worse role than cheerleader, especially in season 8 and 9. Quote I didn't say anything about a bait and switch with Amara. I referred to Adam. 34 minutes ago, catrox14 said: Yes I was quite happy to have Dean get the MoC. It gave him a mytharc but to what end? I mean what did it actually do for Dean like at all in the end? Dean telling Amara that revenge wasn't worth it was not some kind of growth for Dean because he's more or less felt that way from the get go. I reallllly hope the return of Mary is not what he got out of the MoC because Dean knows that shit comes with a price. Maybe we'll find out in s12 what Dean having the MoC was doing for Dean cause right now, it's a mystery to me. I know you didn't say that there was a bait and switch with Amara. My point was that even though a lot of fans thought it was going to be a bait and switch, it wasn't one, so there isn't always a bait and switch. As for the MoC mytharc and what it's end was, I could ask the same about the trial arc. What did that arc actually do for Sam in the end except make him beg for Dean's attention? ...Which Carver apparently likes to make Sam do. For me, Dean's MoC arc in the end let him be a hero. He saved the world by showing Amara what humanity was about and convincing her that the world was worth saving. He kept his integrity and he was willing to sacrifice himself to fix a problem that he had little to no hand in causing - a total selfless act. Even after having the power from the mark, Dean resisted that power and Amara's offers of power, peace, security, and whatever else she bribed him with and chose to save the world instead. 10 minutes ago, catrox14 said: I wasn't trying to imply that it was a deliberate snub against the actor or the character. I think it's more that when the story starts getting too far away from being about Sam Winchester, the Chosen One, it has to veer back in that direction. And to do that it it's often at the expense of other character's story arcs or at least not written in a way that makes sense because of what they wrote before in order to get it back to that. Now in s11 they made the story about God more than Dean or Sam or Cas...and that was not satisfying to me either. Which is interesting, because for me, the show hasn't been much about Sam for a while now. His role has been pretty much as a passive participant or to start an apocalypse which was Dean's to fix. Sam was the cheerleader for that one giving everyone a pep talk to go get the world-saving done, and in the past 4 seasons, maybe the saddest commentary is that was likely the best moment Sam has been given, so what does that say about Sam's arcs in the past 4 seasons? 2 Link to comment
catrox14 July 2, 2016 Share July 2, 2016 12 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: or me, Dean's MoC arc in the end let him be a hero Sam was a hero too. He took on the Mark ( on hey I forgot about that! LOL) in order to sacrifice himself even if it didn't come to fruition the act of taking on the Mark was considered heroic. And he got group off their asses to find a solution. Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey July 2, 2016 Share July 2, 2016 2 hours ago, catrox14 said: Sam was a hero too. He took on the Mark ( on hey I forgot about that! LOL) in order to sacrifice himself even if it didn't come to fruition the act of taking on the Mark was considered heroic. And he got group off their asses to find a solution. If Sam taking on the Mark for 5 seconds made him a hero, then Dean was as much, or even more so, a Hero in Trial and Error. After all, he was willing to do the Trials (even set out to kill the hellhound all by himself) and sacrifice himself. "Even if it didn't come to fruition" his willingness to do so should be considered heroic. As far as Sam getting the group off their asses to find a solution - isn't that the kind of cheer-leading you disdain when that's the only role Dean allegedly got in the Trials arc? So, in the Amara arc, when Sam was the cheerleader, you call that heroic. But in the trials arc, when Dean was the cheerleader, that was bad. I, personally, don't understand why one brother (take your pick) has to look bad or stupid or 'be the cheer leader' (other than occasionally, which only makes sense as long as they 'take turns') to make the other brother look good. That's not how the show was, imo, in the early seasons - back when it was just a fun show. 2 Link to comment
catrox14 July 2, 2016 Share July 2, 2016 13 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said: If Sam taking on the Mark for 5 seconds made him a hero, then Dean was as much, or even more so, a Hero in Trial and Error. After all, he was willing to do the Trials (even set out to kill the hellhound all by himself) and sacrifice himself. "Even if it didn't come to fruition" his willingness to do so should be considered heroic. As far as Sam getting the group off their asses to find a solution - isn't that the kind of cheer-leading you disdain when that's the only role Dean allegedly got in the Trials arc? So, in the Amara arc, when Sam was the cheerleader, you call that heroic. But in the trials arc, when Dean was the cheerleader, that was bad. I, personally, don't understand why one brother (take your pick) has to look bad or stupid or 'be the cheer leader' (other than occasionally, which only makes sense as long as they 'take turns') to make the other brother look good. That's not how the show was, imo, in the early seasons - back when it was just a fun show. Respectfully, I think you might reading more into what I'm saying than what I'm actually saying if that is your takeaway since I didn't make any commentary about Dean's heroics in Trial and Error because that was not the point of my comment and because it was obvious the Dean was acting heroically throughout the episode already. Dean and Sam are both heroes if maybe more like anti-heroes these days, so that wasn't really my point at all. My commentary is about the narrative shift at the end of Trial and Error in which Dean's action role (chosen one) was redirected to Sam, whether it was always the intention that Carver claims or it was a shift midseason. Either way Dean's role did become the support person to Sam. Sam wasn't cheerleading anyone in s11 finale. Sam lectured them and shamed them into taking action and that included Chuck because they all had given up. Sam was the manager that rallied the troops. That's not being a cheerleader that being a LEADER. And he went on the soul collecting hunt with Dean so he lead and took action. He couldn't be the bomb since Amara would never let Sam get near her or so it was implied thus Dean being the one that Amara knew and trusted, so Dean was the chosen one as the suicide bomber. As much as I disliked the s11 finale, I think both Sam and Dean were action persons. So yay? In contrast, Dean didn't have that option in s8 because it was just him and Sam and Sam didn't need any goading or managing to get moving because he was already doing the trials. There was nothing for Dean to coordinate or manage wrt to the trials. 1 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 July 2, 2016 Share July 2, 2016 12 minutes ago, catrox14 said: Sam wasn't cheerleading anyone in s11 finale. Sam lectured them and shamed them into taking action and that included Chuck because they all had given up. Sam was the manager that rallied the troops. In some ways though, that's what a cheerleader does, though maybe being the coach would be a better comparison, but nonetheless, Sam was not a major player there. Most of the souls came from Billie and the bomb was made by Rowena. Once Sam rallied the troops, his contribution was fairly minimal. I'm not saying that Sam didn't do anything, but it was mostly a support position. 19 minutes ago, catrox14 said: In contrast, Dean didn't have that option in s8 because it was just him and Sam and Sam didn't need any goading or managing to get moving because he was already doing the trials. There was nothing for Dean to coordinate or manage wrt to the trials. I have to respectfully disagree, because as I remember it, Sam needed quite a bit of managing, and Sam didn't make that easy. Dean ended up actively securing and assuring Sam's rescue from purgatory, without which the trials wouldn't have even had a chance of going past the second trial. Dean also - using the coach comparison again - had to keep Sam in the game (in this case alive), despite Sam being quite difficult and over-reaching his capabilities. Without the ice bath to get his fever down, Sam likely would've died - and again the trials wouldn't have gone forward. In my opinion, that's also more than cheerleading with Dean's contributions making a big difference in the trials being able to continue. Dean couldn't be the one to complete the trails - just as Sam couldn't be the bomb with Amara - but Dean was critical in making sure that Sam actually survived to get to the church, including being an important part of securing Crowley for the final trial. I think the situations are quite comparable with the main difference being that Dean actually followed through and ended up saving the world through his actions in season 11. And in season 11 there were some teases that Sam might have a bigger role in solving the Amara situation, but they were just fake outs with his visions being from Lucifer*, who didn't end up being a critical player in the end anyway**. And all the talk of "don't worry Dean, I'll take care of it" again not coming to anything. I didn't consider those a bait and switch though, because I knew they were just fake outs and that Dean would be the one to face Amara. * Which I predicted from the beginning. ** Which I also knew. 3 Link to comment
catrox14 July 2, 2016 Share July 2, 2016 Just now, AwesomO4000 said: In some ways though, that's what a cheerleader does I said already that Dean supported Sam. He had to keep him alive. AFAIR he never had to compel him the way Sam did the troops in s11. But none of that alters my original grievance with Trial and Error. 1 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 July 2, 2016 Share July 2, 2016 8 minutes ago, catrox14 said: I said already that Dean supported Sam. He had to keep him alive. AFAIR he never had to compel him the way Sam did the troops in s11. I agree you did. My point was that for me, Dean supporting Sam by keeping him alive was just as important and an as active a role as Sam rallying the troops in the season 11 finale. Sam may not have had to be compelled to act, but he was often way too confident and bullheaded for his own good. Left to his own devices with only a "you can do it Sam!" from Dean, Sam would've been either stuck in purgatory or dead, imo. 12 minutes ago, catrox14 said: But none of that alters my original grievance with Trial and Error. True. I guess I just wasn't as bothered by it, because I personally didn't perceive a big set up that it was going to be Dean doing the trials just because Dean said he was going to. Sam said all through season 3 that he was going to save Dean, but that didn't happen. Sam all through season 4 said he was going to stop the apocalypse, too, but that didn't mean that was going to happen either. Sam was also set up all through season 1 and 2 to be the big special "boy king" and have potentially a big show down with the Yellow Eyed Demon, but nope, Sam gets killed and Dean is the one to kill YED. And if the show had ended there, I likely would've considered that a big bait and switch. This show hardly ever gives the conclusion it appears to at first, so by season 8, based on previous season results, I wasn't seeing anything indicating that I should've expected Dean to be the one here. But considering what came afterwards, and that the trials weren't going to be finished, I'm thinking they didn't plan to have Dean do them for the reasons that I mentioned above. 3 Link to comment
DittyDotDot July 2, 2016 Share July 2, 2016 5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said: This show hardly ever gives the conclusion it appears to at first, so by season 8, based on previous season results, I think this is how the show has always operated: They set up a problem, give a solution and then pull the rug out from under the audience in order to keep us on our toes. They really like to use Kim Manner's rule of "Give them what they want but not in the way they expect." For instance, they spent most of the first half of S5 looking for the Colt so they could kill the devil, but surprise! nothing is ever that easy, so it didn't kill the devil. Or how they set it up that Sam and Dean were both vessels, but then surprise! Adam can be a vessel too. Or how they said they were going to close the gates of Hell and lock all the demons away forever, but surprise! the angels got tossed out of Heaven. Or this season, how they set it up to have Sam return to the cage only to have Cass be the one possessed. Or how it seemed Lucifer was necessary to solve the Amara problem, but wasn't all that helpful in the end. Or how all those Hands of God kept cropping up, but in the end didn't mean a damn thing. Or how they set it up as though they needed God to deal with Amara, but God's plan tanked, and as it turned out, they had everything they needed all along. IMO, Dean was never going to say yes to Michael and it had nothing to do with them shifting the story back to Sam because the show loves Sam and Sam only. The story arc was about how Dean lost his faith in himself and his brother and then regained it. IMO, Dean saying yes to Michael is actually counter-intuitive to the story they were telling. Just like Sam doing the trials wasn't because it was going to fail and the show only lets Sam do things if they're going to fail. Sam's arc in S8 was all about pushing him to his limits until he started losing faith in himself, so in S9 he could lose in his brother and regain that faith in S10 that got stretched into S11. IMO, S6-11 has been a flipping of the script of S1-5. So, while Dean gets sucked back into hunting in S6 and starts his hero journey, Sam starts his journey of losing faith only to find it again. S6-11 wasn't as cohesive as the first five seasons, but IMO, that was probably due to how Carver didn't follow on the heels of what Gamble had set in motion as much as go back and start it all again and then stretched it out longer than he had planned. My current rewatch has really had me seeing how they hit almost the same marks with Dean as they did with Sam in S1-5 and vice-versa with Sam as they did with Dean. S5 in particular just screams it out to me. Amara is S5 Lucifer--even has the almost exact same sad tale of woe: betrayed and locked away by God for the crime of loving God too much--and Amara courts Dean in almost the same way Lucifer courted Sam in S5. Dean is Sam; Sam is Dean; Cass is Bobby; Hands of God are the Colt; Lucifer is Cass (heh!); Rowena is Crowley (heh!); Billie is Death (heh!); God is Gabriel. Of course, some of them play more than one role, but that's how I have it figured for right now. ;) 4 Link to comment
catrox14 July 2, 2016 Share July 2, 2016 (edited) 6 hours ago, DittyDotDot said: IMO, Dean was never going to say yes to Michael and it had nothing to do with them shifting the story back to Sam because the show loves Sam and Sam only. I feel the need to interject and make it clear that for my part I am in no way and am NOT saying nor intending to imply anything of the sort before this devolves into something I did not intend with my commentary. What I AM saying is that IMO the show has always been ABOUT Sam Winchester. Meaning the mythos and the mytharc of the entire show is about Sam Winchester. Sam is #1 on the call sheet. Sam was cast before anyone else. To me that has always been the structure of the story. Even when the narrative beats the crap out of Sam and has him do really dumb and unlikeable things or be cruel to other people. Dean on the other hand wasn't set up for a Hero's Journey because arguably he was already that Hero or anti-hero if you like given the credit card fraud and his smarminess when he was introduced. He was already "Saving People and Hunting Things". He was already the Big Damn Hero so what do you do with that character without duplicating what is happening with Sam, the pinnacle character. Dean gets story lines the story is not about Dean. I think Dean's gets more emotional story points and POV but his mytharcs seem to serve Sam's ongoing Reluctant Hero Journey that was set up in s1. But with s11 maybe he's more into a Reluctant Big Damn Hero journey now. I do wonder with Sam thinking Dean is dead now I wonder if he would have given up hunting altogether again if Lady Milady hadn't shown up. Or would he have been trying to find a way to get Dean out of the Empty since that's where Sam figures he is now. Edited July 2, 2016 by catrox14 because reduncancy is redundant Link to comment
catrox14 July 2, 2016 Share July 2, 2016 6 hours ago, DittyDotDot said: IMO, S6-11 has been a flipping of the script of S1-5. So, while Dean gets sucked back into hunting in S6 and starts his hero journey, Sam starts his journey of losing faith only to find it again. S6-11 wasn't as cohesive as the first five seasons, but IMO, that was probably due to how Carver didn't follow on the heels of what Gamble had set in motion as much as go back and start it all again and then stretched it out longer than he had plann I didn't see S6 being about Dean restarting a Hero journey nor that he was sucked back into hunting. He never wanted to stop hunting.He still tried to find a way to save Sam from the Cage. Sam is why Dean quit hunting and Sam is why Dean started again. If Dean would have continued hunting he would have broken a promise he made to Sam before Sam died. I don't think Dean really wanted to be there at first, but kept trying to make it work to honor Sam and to be normal. But he never seemed remotely happy to me. 1 Link to comment
DittyDotDot July 3, 2016 Share July 3, 2016 6 hours ago, catrox14 said: I didn't see S6 being about Dean restarting a Hero journey nor that he was sucked back into hunting. He never wanted to stop hunting.He still tried to find a way to save Sam from the Cage. Sam is why Dean quit hunting and Sam is why Dean started again. If Dean would have continued hunting he would have broken a promise he made to Sam before Sam died. I don't think Dean really wanted to be there at first, but kept trying to make it work to honor Sam and to be normal. But he never seemed remotely happy to me. When I speak of a hero's journey, I'm talking about the classic Campbell hero's journey that's usually structured in 12 steps, the first being: The Ordinary World described as: The hero, uneasy, uncomfortable or unaware, is introduced sympathetically so the audience can identify with the situation or dilemma. The hero is shown against a background of environment, heredity, and personal history. Some kind of polarity in the hero’s life is pulling in different directions and causing stress. To me, this was Dean in S6. When I said he got drug back in, that's the second step: The Call to Adventure. http://www.thewritersjourney.com/hero's_journey.htm Link to comment
DittyDotDot July 3, 2016 Share July 3, 2016 6 hours ago, catrox14 said: I didn't see S6 being about Dean restarting a Hero journey nor that he was sucked back into hunting. He never wanted to stop hunting.He still tried to find a way to save Sam from the Cage. Sam is why Dean quit hunting and Sam is why Dean started again. If Dean would have continued hunting he would have broken a promise he made to Sam before Sam died. I don't think Dean really wanted to be there at first, but kept trying to make it work to honor Sam and to be normal. But he never seemed remotely happy to me. When I speak of a hero's journey, I'm talking about the classic Campbell hero's journey that's usually structured in 12 steps, the first being: The Ordinary World described as: The hero, uneasy, uncomfortable or unaware, is introduced sympathetically so the audience can identify with the situation or dilemma. The hero is shown against a background of environment, heredity, and personal history. Some kind of polarity in the hero’s life is pulling in different directions and causing stress. To me, this was Dean in S6. When I said he got drug back in, that's the second step: The Call to Adventure. http://www.thewritersjourney.com/hero's_journey.htm Link to comment
catrox14 July 3, 2016 Share July 3, 2016 (edited) 14 hours ago, DittyDotDot said: When I speak of a hero's journey, I'm talking about the classic Campbell hero's journey that's usually structured in 12 steps, the first being: The Ordinary World described as: The hero, uneasy, uncomfortable or unaware, is introduced sympathetically so the audience can identify with the situation or dilemma. The hero is shown against a background of environment, heredity, and personal history. Some kind of polarity in the hero’s life is pulling in different directions and causing stress. I understood what you meant. To me that's only at the most superficial level and why IMO it doesn't really apply to Dean's situation.Since most of the audience already knew that Dean was a hero and that he had quit at Sam's behest. To me if Dean had completely disassociated himself from hunting including how to get Sam out of the Cage and if he wasn't salting the doors and windows and being on guard when he thought something was after him and if he hadn't been ready to bail in the 2nd episode, maybe it would fit that trope more. Edited July 3, 2016 by catrox14 Link to comment
7kstar July 3, 2016 Share July 3, 2016 I always thought that season 6 was a reboot of season 1 with Dean now in Sam's roll. He's living the apple pie life with Lisa. Fulfilling a promise he made to his brother and yet still searching for a way to save his brother but not able to do it. Did he love being a father and enjoy being with Lisa, yes, but also felt he didn't / shouldn't have been there. So easy to pull back into the hunting lifestyle once he was given a way to see that leaving might protect them more. 15 hours ago, DittyDotDot said: To me, this was Dean in S6. When I said he got drug back in, that's the second step: The Call to Adventure. This could have been Gamble's intent. If she had gone longer we might have seen how she intended to do this. But the twist with Dean staying on course to keep a promise makes it a little different for me than the Call to Adventure. I think Gamble really wanted to explore a solid relationship but the negative fan reactions ended it especially with how they ended the Lisa and Ben story-line. JMO. Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey July 4, 2016 Share July 4, 2016 On 7/2/2016 at 0:50 AM, AwesomO4000 said: In some ways though, that's what a cheerleader does, though maybe being the coach would be a better comparison, but nonetheless, Sam was not a major player there. That's exactly what a cheerleader does. A coach has a plan of action. Sam didn't have a plan other than 'we have do something! Let's go!'. At most he was a team player - and there's nothing wrong with being a team player - but he wasn't the LEADER in the soul bomb mission. On 7/2/2016 at 1:09 AM, catrox14 said: But none of that alters my original grievance with Trial and Error. Granted. But then I have to agree with: On 7/2/2016 at 1:40 AM, AwesomO4000 said: I guess I just wasn't as bothered by it, because I personally didn't perceive a big set up that it was going to be Dean doing the trials just because Dean said he was going to. and: On 7/2/2016 at 9:11 AM, DittyDotDot said: I think this is how the show has always operated: They set up a problem, give a solution and then pull the rug out from under the audience in order to keep us on our toes. They really like to use Kim Manner's rule of "Give them what they want but not in the way they expect." It's not just this show either. On another show thread, it's referred to as "the big twist". (And boy, does it get old after awhile.) I guess I'm getting cynical after so many 'big twists'. That's probably one reason that I didn't perceive any "bait and switch" in this episode. Another reason could be that because I'm watching on Netflix, I haven't been subjected to spoilers or promotional ads that would have come out in real time which would have led viewers to a certain conclusion (like Dean doing the trials) only to have "the big twist" be Sam is the one to do them. And in that case, if I were excited about a story line for Dean which I was led to believe was going to happen from promotional materials outside of the episode, I would have been really disappointed also. But I just didn't get that feeling from the episode by itself. On 7/2/2016 at 2:47 PM, catrox14 said: What I AM saying is that IMO the show has always been ABOUT Sam Winchester. Meaning the mythos and the mytharc of the entire show is about Sam Winchester. Sam is #1 on the call sheet. Sam was cast before anyone else. To me that has always been the structure of the story. I would agree that this is how the show started out (I've seen commentary from the original show runner to support this), but I would disagree that this is how the show still is. I don't think it could have lasted 11 (now 12) seasons if all it had going for it was the 'entire show is about Sam Winchester'. 21 hours ago, DittyDotDot said: When I speak of a hero's journey, I'm talking about the classic Campbell hero's journey that's usually structured in 12 steps, the first being: The Ordinary World (snip) To me, this was Dean in S6. When I said he got drug back in, that's the second step: The Call to Adventure. So, out of curiosity - and because I saw a few commentaries on the use of this structure early in the show, where would you say each of the brothers are in the journey now? Link to comment
RulerofallIsurvey July 4, 2016 Share July 4, 2016 On 7/2/2016 at 2:47 PM, catrox14 said: I do wonder with Sam thinking Dean is dead now I wonder if he would have given up hunting altogether again if Lady Milady hadn't shown up. Or would he have been trying to find a way to get Dean out of the Empty since that's where Sam figures he is now. I wanted to do a separate reply to this, because I didn't want it to get lost among the other comments. This sounds like fun speculation. (I'm not sure if this should go on a different thread but I'm going to answer here and if it needs to be moved, just let me know). Personally - having just watched it a few weeks ago :) I would hope that Sam would not repeat the whole Season 8 debacle of not looking for Dean at all and giving up hunting if Lady bitchshotSamandneedstopayforit Milady hadn't shown up. I mean, good grief, I would hope he'd learned something from that.... Link to comment
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