S03.E07: Revelations

[Joe Hellandback]

Revelations

The Good; A great performance from Serena Scott Thomas (when you know she's Kristin's sister the resemblance is starling). Some excellent action scenes and love the idea of the glove.

The Bad; Not much, strong ep

Best line; Post; (of Giles) "There's talk in the council that you've become too American" Buffy; "HIM?"

Character death; Buffy kills Gwendoline, her first human. Faith comments that she has a problem with her authority figures who keep ending up dead. She's right, her mum, first Watcher, Post,

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The Mayor, Wes, Lilah and Lindsay all end up dead. If I was Giles I'd watch out (as we see in the comics...SOB!)

Knocked out; Angel, Willow, Giles and Xander which must be something of a record

Women good/men bad; Faith comments that you can't trust guys when relating her past boyfriends to Buffy.

Kinky dinky; Cordy remarks that Xander is trying to give her a lapdance. Faith's motto is 'Get some, get gone'. She refers to Buffy 'boinking the undead' which I suppose is technically necrophilia.

Calling Captain Subtext; Buffy hinting that she and Faith are 'going out' together. Doug Petrie always keen to play the lesbian angle. The scene where Faith disparages her past boyfriends to Buffy could easily be interpreted as her chatting her up whilst her antipathy to Angel could be seen as jealousy

Questions and observations; Exactly what possible use would the Labryinth maps of Malta be in Sunnydale? Does Giles know about Willow and Xander? His expression suggests he does. Note Oz doesn't say a word during the confrontation scene in the library. Personally I find little good to say about the Spartans who on the whole were a horrible bunch. Post tries to train Faith in the traditional Slayer way (like Kendra) but it's Buffy's links to humanity that actually keeps her alive. The beginning of Faith's

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eventual alienation.

Buffy rather dresses like Jackie-O in the final scene. Really what is the point of having a glove that you can't take off even if it gives you the ability to throw lightning bolts? What's she going to do, shroud it in bandages and pretend it's a cast?

8/10 strong ep although not brilliant

[Halting Hex]

4 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Buffy kills Gwendoline, her first human

Tossing Dr. Weirick to the hyenas in The Pack proved just as fatal as Post's death-by-lightning-bolt did here, although you could argue she didn't necessarily mean that one.  And Gwen was likely to bleed out the moment Buffy took her arm off, mystical follow-up or not.

4 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Exactly what possible use would the Labryinth maps of Malta be in Sunnydale?

Very little, which is why Gwen knew Giles would be unlikely to have them.  Which serves her "keep him on the defensive" purpose quite nicely.

4 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Does Giles know about Willow and Xander? His expression suggests he does.

Even though we only see ASH from the waist down as he (possibly) catches W/X in the stacks, IMO his body language suggests that he sees them.  (Why wouldn't he?  There's nothing blocking his view.)

4 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Note Oz doesn't say a word during the confrontation scene in the library.

"But you were kissing him."  Undercuts Buffy's "we're not together like that" dissembling quite nicely, IMO.

I believe this episode sets the record for most fights in an episode, with six:

1) Buffy and Faith doing "synchronized slaying" in the teaser.

2) Lagos d. Faith

3) Buffy d. Lagos

4) Faith d. Angel

5) Buffy v. Faith, a draw

6) Buffy d. Post

Also Post makes a couple of sneak attacks (successfully on Giles with the statue, unsuccessfully on Angel with the shovel before Faith rescues her) but until she gets superpowers via the glove, I don't know if we can classify those as "fights" per se.

The Council really doesn't respect Giles at all, do they?  They don't keep him in the loop on anything (I doubt there really was a memo), they don't invite him to the annual shindig in the Cotswolds, and they assigned him to Buffy, who's already gotten one Watcher killed.  They can't just fire him straight away (given that he's at least a third-generation legacy), and I don't know if they actually want him dead, per se, but they're clearly not about to waste a more promising Watcher candidate here.

Top 10 episode candidate, even if I dislike using the W/X "affair" force Willow to the "secrets are sexy, right?" side of giving Buffy an unearned free pass.  But Willow cheering on Buffy during her fight with Lagos may well be the Cutest Thing Ever, so that bumps it up a bit. :)

Edited July 5, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Dee]

How is Xander a 'dick'?

And what internalized jealousy did he supposedly have? Xander was largely over Buffy by the end of Season 2 imo.

[Dee]

Quote

Rather than wait and speak to Buffy herself first, he immediately goes to Giles and stages a group intervention in which he repeatedly attacks Buffy, even going as far as saying "what's going to happen the next time you give Angel that moment of happiness" and thereby taking the audacity to slut-shame her without even knowing the full extend of their current situation. A real friend would talk to her first, before deciding to reveal it to the others.

First, why would Xander wait to discuss things with Buffy, when she's sucking face with the guy who just spent the better part of a year trying to murder him and his friends, in between attempting to initiate several apocalypses. Instead, Xander does the rational thing and tells Giles, the relatively responsible adult in their group and Buffy's Watcher.

Second, it's never stated who organized the intervention.  Xander and the other Scoobies respect Giles enough that if he felt he didn't want to include them in confronting Buffy, they wouldn't have been involved. So their presence at the intervention implies that Giles wanted them there.

Third, Xander does not slut shame Buffy. He asks a pertinent question gleaned directly from the info they know about the loss of Angel's soul and Buffy & Angel's current behavior. And if that qualifies as slut shaming Buffy, than Oz is just as guilty, because he's the one who directly confronts Buffy about kissing Angel.

Also, if a 'real friend' would talk to Buffy first, then Buffy must not be a real friend either, because she willfully puts her friends and Watcher in harm's way in order to engage in illicit behavior with a guy who repeatedly tried to murder them.

Quote

but his personal dislike of Angel is what really drives him.

Except it doesn't. Because everyone in the intervention questioned Buffy's behavior. So why is Xander the only one tagged with the 'jealousy' label? Especially when he's head over heels in love, and/or deep infatuation, with not one, but two other girls and hadn't spared as much as a sideways glance at Buffy since her return from LA. A fact which Cordy calls Buffy out on during the intervention, "Hello, Miss Not Over Yourself."

Quote

Notice how other characters like Giles who have been impacted by Angelus the most, are more subdued in the scene, while Xander takes on the task of speaking for everybody else? 

Xander doesn't attempt to speak for everyone else. He makes his points more directly than the other Scoobies, but they all have no problem making their own respective feelings clear. And how was Giles "impacted" the most? All the Scoobies were in harm's way during Angel's reign of terror, and would've been as dead as Jenny if they weren't saved by sheer luck ala Xander in BB&B.

Quote

 Even later when Faith suggests that she is going to go and kill Angel, he asks if he can come and watch her kill him, it's less about whatever Angel has done and more about him seeing his rival taken out of the picture.

If that was the case, Xander would've ignored an injured Giles and continued with his and Faith's mission. Instead, he tends to Giles and attempts to dissuade Faith from their current plan of action. It's Faith who rashly decides to ignore Xander's sound advice because she believes she has something to prove.

Quote

I think the subtext for his desire to possess Buffy is fairly visible there.

Xander doesn't so much as flirt with Buffy upon her return, let alone resume the closeness they'd established at the end of Season 2, prior to the Acathla debacle. And again, upon Buffy's return, Xander's in a fairly serious relationship with Cordy and harboring growing feelings for his best friend Willow. So how does that translate in wanting to 'possess' Buffy?

 

As far as the rest, Xander sleeping with Faith had nothing to do with Buffy and everything to do with Xander and Faith. And everyone was disgusted by Spike & Buffy, not just Xander. So they must be harboring romantic feelings for Buffy too.

[Joe Hellandback]

17 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Tossing Dr. Weirick to the hyenas in The Pack proved just as fatal as Post's death-by-lightning-bolt did here, although you could argue she didn't necessarily mean that one.  And Gwen was likely to bleed out the moment Buffy took her arm off, mystical follow-up or not.

Very little, which is why Gwen knew Giles would be unlikely to have them.  Which serves her "keep him on the defensive" purpose quite nicely.

Even though we only see ASH from the waist down as he (possibly) catches W/X in the stacks, IMO his body language suggests that he sees them.  (Why wouldn't he?  There's nothing blocking his view.)

"But you were kissing him."  Undercuts Buffy's "we're not together like that" dissembling quite nicely, IMO.

I believe this episode sets the record for most fights in an episode, with six:

1) Buffy and Faith doing "synchronized slaying" in the teaser.

2) Lagos d. Faith

3) Buffy d. Lagos

4) Faith d. Angel

5) Buffy v. Faith, a draw

6) Buffy d. Post

Also Post makes a couple of sneak attacks (successfully on Giles with the statue, unsuccessfully on Angel with the shovel before Faith rescues her) but until she gets superpowers via the glove, I don't know if we can classify those as "fights" per se.

The Council really doesn't respect Giles at all, do they?  They don't keep him in the loop on anything (I doubt there really was a memo), they don't invite him to the annual shindig in the Cotswolds, and they assigned him to Buffy, who's already gotten one Watcher killed.  They can't just fire him straight away (given that he's at least a third-generation legacy), and I don't know if they actually want him dead, per se, but they're clearly not about to waste a more promising Watcher candidate here.

Top 10 episode candidate, even if I dislike using the W/X "affair" force Willow to the "secrets are sexy, right?" side of giving Buffy an unearned free pass.  But Willow cheering on Buffy during her fight with Lagos may well be the Cutest Thing Ever, so that bumps it up a bit. :)

Good point on the Labyrinth maps although you wonder why he didn't ask her what she wanted them for? I sometimes think that Giles was a rebel within the organisation and they sent him to be Buffy's watcher to get rid of him? Never realising she'd last so long? 

 I like the Willow/Buffy bonding over their naughtiness, every one of their Scoobs keeps secrets at some time, perhaps that's one of the ways they have such chemistry.  

[Joe Hellandback]

8 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

This is a fantastic episode, even though the glove is just a mystical plot device. We don't even know what Gwendolyn's plans are, like what's her end goal other than shooting lightning at Buffy and Faith?  And how inconvenient would that glove be when she wants to eat her cereal? Or during a very hot summer. Her hand would smell really badly, I assume.

 

However, Gwendolyn was a wonderful nemesis for Giles and Faith and you kind of just wish she would have stuck around for a short multi-episode arc, because she has great screen presence and it would have hurt even more if Faith had actually spent more time with her, trusting her.  I never realized how all the seeds for future developments are planted in this episode. This is arguably the episode in which Buffy loses Faith as a friend, even though they're still friends in later episodes, but this is where Faith stops trusting her and feeling marginalised. The fact that Buffy kept Angel's return a secret and that the Scoobie Gang has an entire meeting without her - even though she is an ally in the fight against evil - really hurt her and I think this is the episode where Faith decides not to ever let her guard down with the Scoobies, also distancing herself from the group for the first time. 

 

The Faith/Buffy fight was fantastic too. Of course, the stunt doubles are really obvious, as in most Buffy episodes, but it was still a kickass fight.

 

The big confrontation scene in the library is also one of the best scenes that was ever shot there. Xander of course is a dick, but he does have a point and I liked that Buffy still called him out on his internalised jealousy (with Cordy being all snark: Not over yourself yet?). Giles then being unusually hard on Buffy was also a very poignant moment. (And let's talk about Willow's "I-Statement" sentence which cracks me up all the time and Cordelia's very fitting "I'm worried...about me!"). 

 

This episode  introduces the idea of Giles as an underdog in the Watcher's Council. They don't seem to care much about keeping him in the loop. While Gwendolyn was evil of course, there might still be some truth to her statement that people in the Council think Giles is becoming "too American".

 

I will always love the Lesbian subtext between Buffy and Faith. (Though I love the sisterly dynamics that they display even more, especially in 

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Graduation Day Part Two when Buffy tenderly kisses Faith oner her forehead.

I didn't see that as a

Spoiler

sisterly kiss, compare and contrast her goodnight smooch with a sleeping Dawn in LMPTM, seemed a lot more passion. I sometimes wonder if Gwendolyn was the prototype for Lilah? 

Yes, Alysson and interventions, a trait she carries over into HIMYM.  

4 hours ago, Dee said:

How is Xander a 'dick'?

And what internalized jealousy did he supposedly have? Xander was largely over Buffy by the end of Season 2 imo.

Not sure he was ever really over her although in 

Spoiler

Restless she was the only girl on the show he didn't think of sexually.  

[Joe Hellandback]

4 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

Rather than wait and speak to Buffy herself first, he immediately goes to Giles and stages a group intervention in which he repeatedly attacks Buffy, even going as far as saying "what's going to happen the next time you give Angel that moment of happiness" and thereby taking the audacity to slut-shame her without even knowing the full extend of their current situation. A real friend would talk to her first, before deciding to reveal it to the others.

 

He does have some points though, Angel is a killer, Jenny Calendar is dead, but his personal dislike of Angel is what really drives him. Notice how other characters like Giles who have been impacted by Angelus the most, are more subdued in the scene, while Xander takes on the task of speaking for everybody else? Even later when Faith suggests that she is going to go and kill Angel, he asks if he can come and watch her kill him, it's less about whatever Angel has done and more about him seeing his rival taken out of the picture. I think the subtext for his desire to possess Buffy is fairly visible there.

 

And given that Xander constantly refers to Buffy in a sexual way throughout the series as well as his reaction later on when he finds out that

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she has been sleeping with Spike

 

shows that he's really never fully gotten over her and that she's still his fantasy. Even Cordelia asks several times throughout season three where Xander's obsession with slayers comes from. Even his attraction to Faith goes back to Buffy, since she represents Buffy's shadow self.

In fairness he probably figured everyone else had a right to know especially Giles and he stood more chance with everyone one his side than alone (when Buffy could just accuse him of jealousy). 

 So if Faith is Buffy's shadow self then Joyce is her originator and 

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Dawn her progeny? I always found Spike's affinity for Joyce and Dawn interesting, the closest thing he had to Buffy.  

2 hours ago, Dee said:

First, why would Xander wait to discuss things with Buffy, when she's sucking face with the guy who just spent the better part of a year trying to murder him and his friends, in between attempting to initiate several apocalypses. Instead, Xander does the rational thing and tells Giles, the relatively responsible adult in their group and Buffy's Watcher.

Second, it's never stated who organized the intervention.  Xander and the other Scoobies respect Giles enough that if he felt he didn't want to include them in confronting Buffy, they wouldn't have been involved. So their presence at the intervention implies that Giles wanted them there.

Third, Xander does not slut shame Buffy. He asks a pertinent question gleaned directly from the info they know about the loss of Angel's soul and Buffy & Angel's current behavior. And if that qualifies as slut shaming Buffy, than Oz is just as guilty, because he's the one who directly confronts Buffy about kissing Angel.

Also, if a 'real friend' would talk to Buffy first, then Buffy must not be a real friend either, because she willfully puts her friends and Watcher in harm's way in order to engage in illicit behavior with a guy who repeatedly tried to murder them.

Except it doesn't. Because everyone in the intervention questioned Buffy's behavior. So why is Xander the only one tagged with the 'jealousy' label? Especially when he's head over heels in love, and/or deep infatuation, with not one, but two other girls and hadn't spared as much as a sideways glance at Buffy since her return from LA. A fact which Cordy calls Buffy out on during the intervention, "Hello, Miss Not Over Yourself."

Xander doesn't attempt to speak for everyone else. He makes his points more directly than the other Scoobies, but they all have no problem making their own respective feelings clear. And how was Giles "impacted" the most? All the Scoobies were in harm's way during Angel's reign of terror, and would've been as dead as Jenny if they weren't saved by sheer luck ala Xander in BB&B.

If that was the case, Xander would've ignored an injured Giles and continued with his and Faith's mission. Instead, he tends to Giles and attempts to dissuade Faith from their current plan of action. It's Faith who rashly decides to ignore Xander's sound advice because she believes she has something to prove.

Xander doesn't so much as flirt with Buffy upon her return, let alone resume the closeness they'd established at the end of Season 2, prior to the Acathla debacle. And again, upon Buffy's return, Xander's in a fairly serious relationship with Cordy and harboring growing feelings for his best friend Willow. So how does that translate in wanting to 'possess' Buffy?

 

As far as the rest, Xander sleeping with Faith had nothing to do with Buffy and everything to do with Xander and Faith. And everyone was disgusted by Spike & Buffy, not just Xander. So they must be harboring romantic feelings for Buffy too.

My bet is Willow is the organiser, Xander shares everything with her and she tries to keep things civilised. 

[Halting Hex]

6 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

Notice how other characters like Giles who have been impacted by Angelus the most, are more subdued in the scene

Well, Giles is "subdued" because he's busy clenching his jaw and looking visibly ill when Buffy is making with the "I would never put you in any danger. If I thought for a second that Angel was going to hurt anyone.." empty promises.  Just because it's left to Xander to dot the Jenny-shaped i's in that sentence doesn't mean Giles isn't having the same thoughts.  Especially given that earlier, Giles is the one who points out that since Buffy lied to them, she must have known that what she was doing was wrong.  And of course, when Buffy goes to thank him for "support" later, Giles tears her a new one, but good.

"You have no respect for me, or the job I perform."  Ouch.

Yes, Buffy tries to seize on Xander as a distraction and turn this into "Xander's just jealous, chapter XXIII", but given that Xan's currently making time with every girl in the room but Buffy, it's no wonder he practically laughs in her face in reply.

That said, I almost sort agree with

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Not sure he was ever really over her

when I think about his 

Spoiler

"not that I'm still into Buffy" disclaimer to Riley in The Replacement, as well as possibly Puffy!Xander's hugging her in I Was Made to Love You

but I don't think that's anywhere near his top concern here.  Remember, even when fixated on Buffy in When She Was Bad, he still threatens to kill her if Willow gets hurt.  

Now he's admitted how much he loves Willow, he's with her every chance he gets, and the monster who put Willow in a coma is back roaming around, and Buffy's been kissing him, hiding him, and lying to everyone about it.  Thoughts of "get rid of Angel and I could have a shot at Buffy" are right down there with "you know, for an evil vampire, Angel's kind of hot" right now, I"m thinking.  But JMO.

[Halting Hex]

All of this discussion ^ of a character who hasn't even appeared as of 3.07 should be completely spoilered, if I understand the current spoiler policy correctly.

Spoiler

To quote The Sock Puppet of Love in Choices, "Who is this Anya?" Anybody trying to stay spoiler-free by only reading threads about the episodes they've seen as they move through the series should be respected; therefore Anya's very existence shouldn't be discussed unspoilered, no more than Riley's or Dawn's.  JMO.

[lembergwatcher]

One of the funniest moments IMO not only in that ep, but in the enire season :)

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎26‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 1:25 PM, lembergwatcher said:

One of the funniest moments IMO not only in that ep, but in the enire season :)

Getting all sweaty?

[Halting Hex]

I just noticed that the Willow/Xander kiss in this episode is the logical progression from the near-kiss in When She Was Bad (where Willow, post-ice cream nose, stands waiting for Xander to kiss her, only for him to stop himself before noticing the nearby vampire) to the kiss in Homecoming, where she moves to him as he moves to her and thus it's a mutual smooch, and now, where he's ready to break it off once she (weakly) demurs and then she takes over and initiates the kiss on her own.  

Now that's character growth!  No more "speaking up leads to sweaty palms", now our Willow takes action all on her own.  You go, Willow!

"Sometimes I have this fantasy that Xander is going to just grab me and kiss me, right on the lips." —Willow to Buffy, Angel.  Exactly two seasons later, Willow makes her fantasies reality, all on her own.

(Okay, so they don't yet have the part where Giles [probably] catches them worked out.  Xillow wasn't built in a day.)

[lembergwatcher]

23 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Exactly two seasons later, Willow makes her fantasies reality, all on her own.

This is so cute... And it makes me dislike friggin' Oz even more!

[Joe Hellandback]

1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

This is so cute... And it makes me dislike friggin' Oz even more!

It's ironic, people disliked Oz because he spoiled Xillow, then disliked

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Tara because she ruined Woz and then disliked Kennedy because...well because she was Kennedy?

[Halting Hex]

Well, I think that last part was more because

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she wasn't Tara than because of who Kennedy, herself, was.  Although those who were devout about Xillow or Woz still mourned that Willow was moved into a new relationship rather than rekindling things with their preferred fellow.

But of course I can only speak for myself, honestly.

[Joe Hellandback]

8 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Well, I think that last part was more because

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she wasn't Tara than because of who Kennedy, herself, was.  Although those who were devout about Xillow or Woz still mourned that Willow was moved into a new relationship rather than rekindling things with their preferred fellow.

But of course I can only speak for myself, honestly.

Given more time you-know-who would probably have grown on us. 

[lembergwatcher]

Talk about split personality.

I love Willow # 1 in the library. She's obviously concerned over Buffy's antics and thinks her best friend needs help.

I find it hard to understand Willow # 2 in the SHS hallway. She's in "secrets are good" mood and ready to resume her cheerleading for all the things Bangel-y. Welcome home, Angel boy, all is forgiven... 

If Willow acts this way only because of the "illicit smoochies" she's been having with her Xander-shaped friend, then... I'm kinda worried about little Wicca's sanity (it seems like spending too much time with Buffy started to affect Willow's perception of reality in one way or another). Because I don't see how one can compare those two things...

Edited January 26, 2019 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

And of course, that's my whole problem with the "affair" plot.  Two years of natural growth from "yeah, but you got used to being the belle of the ball" to "I love you", and then radio silence for the first four episodes of this season, only to have W/X's coming together brand them as Dirty Rotten Cheaters and thus undercut their ability to have the high ground and criticize Buffy for her behavior. 

Not that there's any true equivalency between sneaking smoochies behind Oz's back and hiding the returned and recently unstable mass-murderer who's only restrained by a curse that's already proven to be breakable, but we're talking about audience perceptions here.  And it's so "hypocritical" for W/X to go after Buffy for keeping secrets when they have this secret of their own, right?  

Benefits of being a title character, I suppose. Sigh.

[lembergwatcher]

Sometimes recalling that "Xander follows Angel home" scene I can't help but wonder did Buffy or Willow or Giles ever tell him about the outcome of the Acathla crisis? Do Cordelia and Oz know as well? Could Willow accidentaly spill the beans during one of her and Xander's making out sessions?

Is Xander the only one having no clue in which case my worst predictions regarding his position in the gang post-Angelus crisis turn out to be true. He was the last one to find out about Angel "getting there first", after all. So is it just Xander or did B/G/W chose to keep the truth from Oz and Cordy either?

[Halting Hex]

Cordelia's saying that Angel "had to be put down like a dog" in front of both Xander and Oz here indicates that all three are aware that it was Buffy herself who sent Angel to Acathla's realm, but doesn't answer the question of whether they knew about the soulfulness, it's true.

But OTOH, Willow had already told C/O/X that she thought the spell worked (in Becoming, Part 2); it's only later (Faith, Hope and Trick) that she's come to think it failed (because of the notable lack of Angel lurking around) before Buffy corrects her misconception, in the "so I kissed him" scene.  So it doesn't seem to be a terribly difficult dot for the others to connect, even if Willow didn't come running immediately after "There is no spell" to update them.

[lembergwatcher]

Quote

Faith: Ronnie, deadbeat. Steve, klepto. Kenny... drummer. Eventually, I just had to face up to my destiny as a loser magnet. Now it's strictly get some, get gone. You can't trust guys.

How old is Faith? She seems to be Buffy's age or slightly younger (16 or 17, I guess). Shouldn't she be a little bit too young for such kind of activity and sound a little less like, to quote Angel in Innocence, a pro? At what age did she start having fun with the guys? At 15? 14? 13? 12?..

[Halting Hex]

16 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

How old is Faith? She seems to be Buffy's age or slightly younger (16 or 17, I guess).

We know from Faith, Hope, and Trick that Faith went to high school last year before dropping out, so 15 seems unlikely.  And I'd like to think that

Spoiler

if Faith had already turned 18, she'd have told Buffy about the Cruciamentum,

so your guess seems fairly likely, I'd say.  Not that I'm advocating for Faith having sowed oats from coast to coast, but if she's 17, five or six hookups doesn't seem dramatically excessive.  But JMO.

[lembergwatcher]

I find it kinda interesting that Xander happens to be the only one among the Scooby Gang to mention Jenny Calendar's name during the intervention at the library. Is it because the writers wanted everyone to root for Bangel lovebirds so much they made it easier to dismiss any objections against a highly popular 'ship on account of them coming from Xander's mouth? It won't be so easy to brush aside that argument in case Giles or, say, Willow bring it up. But seems like none of those two has the guts to remind Buffy of one of her boyfriend's biggest crimes.

Giles is presumably so sensitive about Buffy's precious feelings he doesn't mention Jenny and the fact that she didn't deserve to die while staying one on one with his Slayer at the office. Yes, he can't forgive Angel for torturing him "for hours... for pleasure", but that's what you get, Rupert, when you fail to perform your job and pander to your Slayer's hormones. And how about your ex-lover, G-Man? And yes, Buffy has no respect for you and your job. I just can't understand why didn't you figure it out earlier?

Actually I blame Giles for Jenny's death just like I blame Angel and Buffy (even though Giles is less guilty than the other two). Buffy - for not staking Angelus when she had a chance (Innocence) thus enabling him to continue killing for months and go after Jenny eventually.  Jenny put her life at risk in the name of stupid Ritual of Restoration or whatever just to make it up to both Buffy and Giles, and I don't think we should forget about it.

This whole Angel-related arc is kinda disgusting if we look from Jenny's perspective.

May/June 1998.

• Jenny is dead and rotting lying six feet under;
• Buffy finds out about the soul restoration spell and turns the whole Acathla deal into Operation Save Private Angel;
• Giles and Willow support her despite objections from Xander, Cordelia and Kendra who go along with saving Angel too eventually;
• Despite Kendra's death, her own trauma and Giles captivity/torment, Willow decides to give the restoration spell a second try.

Spoiler

Autumn 1998

• Angel's back and he and Buffy are all puppies and rainbows once again (not immediately, but nevertheless);
• Willow continues to view Angel as her friend;
• Giles accepts the ensouled version of his Slayer's boyfriend in order not to alienate Buffy even more;
• Xander accepts Angel for if he doesn't his friendship with Buffy (and Willow!) will come to an end;
• Jenny? Still dead and rotting lying six feet under (does anyone visit her grave time after time?).

Seems like the series creators decided to kill Jenny for shock value and then did everything to erase memory of her in the following season just to make Buffy and the rest look less callous.

[Halting Hex]

Liam Duke points out there's really no way for Gwendolyne Post, Mrs., to know about Faith's "failed attack" on Lagos the night before the intervention.  When Postie stops by the motel room, Faith clearly hasn't seen her earlier that day, and if Faith even told Buffy about getting her ass kicked by Lagos (and why would she?), how did that get to Gwen?  We saw Buffy's interaction with Giles (the intervention, the ensuing "you have no respect for me" scene in his office) and there wasn't any "by the way, Faith said she rumbled with Lagos at [name of cemetery] last night" sidebar to those conversations. 

Not a big deal, honestly;  it's just that it probably would have been as effective to see Gwendolyne going on about "when you are able to find Lagos" and Faith looking downcast, knowing how that has already turned out, rather than gliding over the issue and just assuming Post has been watching the episode along with us.  Oh, well.

Of course, Gwendolyne could have been working with Lagos, in theory.  But then she would hardly have let the Scoobs know about his goals.  (Or his existence, for that matter.  Or even her own, I suppose.)

It's good that Xander, even when angry, knows that Angel tends to bite his victims, and Giles only being clobbered might mean that someone else is responsible.  

Spoiler

OTOH, as he's telling this to Faith, specifically, you might think it would raise a red flag with her when, 10 episodes hence, Angel will sucker-punch Xander, and yet not bite him.  Right in front of Faith's own face.  More argument for the "Faith, you're an idiot", theory, I suppose.  But a sexy one.  That counts, right?

Of course, then we run into the characterization inconsistency that many have already spotted; that Xander, having just finished telling Faith he thinks Angel didn't kayo Giles, turns around and argues the opposite to Buffy.  Doesn't make much sense, except as a way for Xander to vent at Buffy, and thus piss off Willow.

Which may be the point, after all;  we're about to have a W/X research scene ("I know what the Glove does") and we don't want Liam and all the delicate little WillOz fans out there to spend it being distracted by their worries that the Xillow Acoustic Guitar of Infidelity will suddenly start strumming on the soundtrack.  (When W/X were left alone in the stacks earlier, Liam could see where this was going and panicked: "No!  No solo scenes for you two!")  If Willow isn't peeved at and disappointed with Xander, we might get something like this:

Quote

XANDER:  I know what the Glove does.

WILLOW (adoring eyes):  You're so smart…

(Music plays. They stare at each other, then start to kiss)

WILLOW (breaking the kiss):  We really should tell Buffy…

XANDER (with difficulty):  Buffy.  Yeah.  She'll probably be calling to check any second…

(They kiss LONGER AND HARDER, eventually falling to the floor.)

But, 'shipping preferences aside, would that be so bad?  It's not as if Xander actually tells Buffy about the Glove. (Xander, not so great on the "updating Buffy" tip, as we know already.) Buffy has to work it out on the go.  And Willow's main "contribution" to the fight is getting backhanded by Post and then needing Angel to save her from a lightning bolt.

Which is probably the real point of all of this.  Angel's having "saved [Willow] from a horrible flame-y death" gets him trust and leeway from the rest of the group. (Except for Realist!Cordy and most of her objections were cut, as seen above.)  

Dang it, Brood Boy!  Let Xillow have their Naughty Acoustic Fun and get your Redemption Creds elsewhere, why don't you? Grrr, to speak your own language. 😞

Edited March 31, 2020 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

4 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Doesn't make much sense, except as a way for Xander to vent at Buffy, and thus piss off Willow.

Even though the only person Willow should be pissed at is... Buffy.

4 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Let Xillow have their Naughty Acoustic Fun

You are reading my thoughts 😊 Although some Naughty Hardcore Fun would've been preferable... 🤩 But Buffy was on WB, not Showtime and Xillow fans like me are vastly outnumbered by angry Bangel droolers and naive Willoz disciples... So sad... 😢

Just don't let me start another rant...

[Joe Hellandback]

On 3/31/2020 at 3:31 PM, Halting Hex said:

Liam Duke points out there's really no way for Gwendolyne Post, Mrs., to know about Faith's "failed attack" on Lagos the night before the intervention.  When Postie stops by the motel room, Faith clearly hasn't seen her earlier that day, and if Faith even told Buffy about getting her ass kicked by Lagos (and why would she?), how did that get to Gwen?  We saw Buffy's interaction with Giles (the intervention, the ensuing "you have no respect for me" scene in his office) and there wasn't any "by the way, Faith said she rumbled with Lagos at [name of cemetery] last night" sidebar to those conversations. 

Not a big deal, honestly;  it's just that it probably would have been as effective to see Gwendolyne going on about "when you are able to find Lagos" and Faith looking downcast, knowing how that has already turned out, rather than gliding over the issue and just assuming Post has been watching the episode along with us.  Oh, well.

Of course, Gwendolyne could have been working with Lagos, in theory.  But then she would hardly have let the Scoobs know about his goals.  (Or his existence, for that matter.  Or even her own, I suppose.)

It's good that Xander, even when angry, knows that Angel tends to bite his victims, and Giles only being clobbered might mean that someone else is responsible.  

  Hide contents

OTOH, as he's telling this to Faith, specifically, you might think it would raise a red flag with her when, 10 episodes hence, Angel will sucker-punch Xander, and yet not bite him.  Right in front of Faith's own face.  More argument for the "Faith, you're an idiot", theory, I suppose.  But a sexy one.  That counts, right?

Of course, then we run into the characterization inconsistency that many have already spotted; that Xander, having just finished telling Faith he thinks Angel didn't kayo Giles, turns around and argues the opposite to Buffy.  Doesn't make much sense, except as a way for Xander to vent at Buffy, and thus piss off Willow.

Which may be the point, after all;  we're about to have a W/X research scene ("I know what the Glove does") and we don't want Liam and all the delicate little WillOz fans out there to spend it being distracted by their worries that the Xillow Acoustic Guitar of Infidelity will suddenly start strumming on the soundtrack.  (When W/X were left alone in the stacks earlier, Liam could see where this was going and panicked: "No!  No solo scenes for you two!")  If Willow isn't peeved at and disappointed with Xander, we might get something like this:

But, 'shipping preferences aside, would that be so bad?  It's not as if Xander actually tells Buffy about the Glove. (Xander, not so great on the "updating Buffy" tip, as we know already.) Buffy has to work it out on the go.  And Willow's main "contribution" to the fight is getting backhanded by Post and then needing Angel to save her from a lightning bolt.

Which is probably the real point of all of this.  Angel's having "saved [Willow] from a horrible flame-y death" gets him trust and leeway from the rest of the group. (Except for Realist!Cordy and most of her objections were cut, as seen above.)  

Dang it, Brood Boy!  Let Xillow have their Naughty Acoustic Fun and get your Redemption Creds elsewhere, why don't you? Grrr, to speak your own language. 😞

Stuff like that never bothered me, I just figure people told one another off screen?

[Halting Hex]

Sure, plenty of that sort of "passing on information" going on.  I have no trouble with the idea of Giles telling Post (right before the scene that ends with her bonking him on the head), but I have no idea how Giles knew about the fight.  As noted, we saw all the interaction Giles had with Buffy and there doesn't seem to be any chance for Buffy to fill him in on Faith's failed Lagos-slaying attempt.  (Assuming Faith even told her, which is still a bit of a stretch, IMO.)

Faith could have told Giles directly, I suppose, but that would bespeak a certain honesty, a devotion to duty, and a line of personal communication to Giles, and this ep would seem to argue Faith lacks on all three of those counts.  After all, Faith being out of the loop is a significant plot point in the episode;  she doesn't even know about the intervention until Post tells her, and she's fishing for info when she seeks out Xander at the Bronze?  So how is that half the cast knows what Faith's been up to when she's all alone?  She really doesn't seem the type to over-share…

[catherinejane]

just doing a rewatch - UK tv is showing them all this summer.

It's odd that Giles is so seen as a second class citizen by the watcher council. I mean he HAS the ACTUAL SLAYER. And the 2 new slayers both head to Sunnydale as its the hellmouth/demon hotspot. So he is in the MOST important place in the world it seems. Yet he is treated like he is rubbish. Its odd!

I actually assumed watchig this that the demon chap was someone else, innocently going about his business (well still being Evil) and Largo was actually Post (once we knew she was evil). But appears not.

 

[Joe Hellandback]

On 8/21/2020 at 11:50 AM, catherinejane said:

just doing a rewatch - UK tv is showing them all this summer.

It's odd that Giles is so seen as a second class citizen by the watcher council. I mean he HAS the ACTUAL SLAYER. And the 2 new slayers both head to Sunnydale as its the hellmouth/demon hotspot. So he is in the MOST important place in the world it seems. Yet he is treated like he is rubbish. Its odd!

I actually assumed watchig this that the demon chap was someone else, innocently going about his business (well still being Evil) and Largo was actually Post (once we knew she was evil). But appears not.

 

But they're not reshowing Angel? Or maybe they'll show it afterwards? The council is all about power and keeping people in their place, they're cut off from the realities of the fight so it's hardly surprising, their attitude to Giles. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

The Watcher's Council is a glorified plot device - it does whatever is necessary for the plot to get from point A to point B, often in a rather nonsensical fashion. It wasn't even introduced in the show until season 3, IIRC. So yes, it makes no sense whatsoever to have a ton of "Watchers" twiddling their thumbs while Buffy had to rely on "civilians" like Willow and Xander for help with research and Slaying. Or to put a guy you apparently don't like much in charge of the Slayer, your biggest asset who accidentally has to save the entire world quite regularly indeed.

[illdoc]

You'd think that, given that there's an active Hellmouth in Sunnydale, that there would be a Watcher on permanent duty there (not just because there's a Slayer there). There probably should be one in Cleveland too (as well as the (probably) other Hellmouths.)

[Halting Hex]

1 hour ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

The Watcher's Council…wasn't even introduced in the show until season 3, IIRC. 

Faith, Hope, and Trick marks the first time a specific "Council" is mentioned, yes.

But given that the existence of other Watchers is mentioned in What's My Line, Part 2 (when Giles mentions Sam Zabuto being Kendra's Watcher) and that Giles is aware not only of Sam but of his duties, that would seem to imply some sort of organization in place, IMO.

And even before that, in Never Stop Making Title Jokes, when Giles tells Buffy that his father was "A Watcher" and so was his mother before him, that would seem to hint that there are multiple Watchers active at any given time.  Or else Giles might have spoken about how Watching was his family's special responsibility, or something like that.  JMO, though.

[Joe Hellandback]

On 8/30/2020 at 9:10 PM, illdoc said:

You'd think that, given that there's an active Hellmouth in Sunnydale, that there would be a Watcher on permanent duty there (not just because there's a Slayer there). There probably should be one in Cleveland too (as well as the (probably) other Hellmouths.)

Remember Giles is in SD before Buffy arrives? And we see in The Wish he's there even without her and Wes' dad fights Spike in Vienna without any Slayer present. 

[illdoc]

But Giles didn't even seem to realize that there was a HM in SD. I got the impression that he had just arrived recently in SD (and, while in Wishverse he is there, I'm not exactly sure he is a member of the WC (I think he's a former member)).

[Joe Hellandback]

23 hours ago, illdoc said:

But Giles didn't even seem to realize that there was a HM in SD. I got the impression that he had just arrived recently in SD (and, while in Wishverse he is there, I'm not exactly sure he is a member of the WC (I think he's a former member)).

I don't recall that? Anyone help?

[Halting Hex]

On 9/1/2020 at 7:21 PM, illdoc said:

But Giles didn't even seem to realize that there was a HM in SD. I got the impression that he had just arrived recently in SD (and, while in Wishverse he is there, I'm not exactly sure he is a member of the WC (I think he's a former member)).

Giles is new (WILLOW:  The new librarian is really cool.) but he's already been researching, even before Buffy arrives.

Quote

GILES: What do you know about this town? (goes into his office)

BUFFY: It's two hours on the freeway from Neiman Marcus?

GILES: Dig a bit in the history of this place. You'll find a, a steady stream of fairly odd occurrences. Now, I believe this whole area is a center of mystical energy, (comes back with four books) that things gravitate towards it that, that, that you might not find elsewhere. (sets them on the table)

Yes, it's Angel who first says "The Mouth of Hell", and Buffy relays the news to Giles, but Giles doesn't seem taken aback by this.  He's more surprised to learn of Angel's existence (hey, a Watcher's got needs!  It's been ages since Giles has seen Ethan, after all…) and by the mention of the Harvest.  Even if it takes until the next episode for Rupert to give the back story about the Spanish settlers calling the town "Boca del Inferno" back when.

Edited September 4, 2020 by Halting Hex

[Halting Hex]

Quote

OZ:  But you [Buffy] were kissing him [Angel].

Is this literally Oz's only line in the episode, other than some small talk in the teaser?  JFC.

But of course, if we let Wolf-Boy speak, we'd have to acknowledge that Buffy has spent weeks lying to him, as well as to Willow and Xander.  (And Cordelia, but clearly the episode dgaf what she thinks.)

No, no, let's just make this an issue between Princess Buffy, protecting Pure Innocent Forehead, and the Dirty Rotten Cheaters.  I mean, that's the whole reason for the "clothes fluke" plot in the first place, right?  To cut the ground out from under W/X, right?

(Georgia Corsby, disappointingly proclaiming herself "Team Buffy", was practically giddy at the thought of Buffy finding out about Xillow and then their being unable to criticize Buffy.  Because high school kids stealing smoochies and hiding the mass-murderer who nearly killed your mom are completely the same thing, right?)

Quote

BUFFY:  But you have to believe me, I would never let [Angel] hurt you.

Gee, that's nice, Buff.  You'll protect a whole four kids.  Alley hookers, visiting gypsies, Buffy's classmates, girls near the Bronze, quaint little shopgirls, early-rising toddlers and fishifying swim team members will just have to look after themselves, but Buffy's got the Scoobies' backs!  Thanks!

Such "heroism"!

(Ignore Jenny and arguably Kendra for the sake of this "argument".  After all, Buffy does.)

(And yes, she broadens it to "anyone" in her next line.  But the point still stands, IMO.)

********************'

So Angel is finally hale and hearty again, after centuries (probably millennia) of unceasing torment, and the first thing he does is…kiss Buffy?  The precursor to what got him un-cursed in the first place, the girl who sent him to that Hell, personally.  Pardon the pun, but to quote Stone Cold Steve Austin, "Aw, HELL naw!"

Never mind that Buffy should never want to see Angel again, you can claim she's just a stupid girl and she wasn't actually endlessly tortured, as he was.  But Angel must be the masochist of all masochists to hang out with the proximate cause of his suffering.  In the same house where it happened, no less.  (And which he probably took possession of by committing a few murders, not that this seems to bother him.)

I mean, if I decided to rob a gas station, and I told Buffy to keep the car running while I went to get us snacks, and the clerk pulled a gun, and I ran like hell and told Buffy to drive away, and the cops saw her license plate on the tape and got her to roll over on me, I'd be like "see ya!" if she wanted to apologize after I got out.  Even if I had to admit this was all my fault, and even if the best lawyers in LA got the charge knocked down to Attempted Pliferage in the Third Degree and all I had to serve was six months in minimum security and I got out early on work-release, even then, I'm fucking DONE with Buffy.  Too many bad memories.

But Angel, apparently, is Just. So. Smitten.  JFC, there's other blonde 14-year-olds for you to stalk.  Go to Kansas or something.

I know, I don't understand the power of The Wuv of the Ages.  (Or the power of ratings, more likely.)  Sorry, Joss.

[lembergwatcher]

3 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Is this literally Oz's only line in the episode, other than some small talk in the teaser?

IIRC Wolfboy opened his mouth at the end of an ep while W/X/O/C were discussing events from the previous night and then Buffy came... But I can be wrong though... 

3 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

But Angel must be the masochist of all masochists to hang out with the proximate cause of his suffering. 

Quote

Couldn't have said it better myself.

-- Angel in Innocence

 

3 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

I know, I don't understand the power of The Wuv of the Ages.

You're being blasphemous here 🙂

[Halting Hex]

From Becoming, Part 1:

Quote

"IMMOLATION-A-GRAM" VAMPIRE:  Tonight…at the graveyard…

So the "12 cemeteries" joke in this episode is a retcon, and somewhat worrying.  Since while I don't mind a little mockery of the tropes ("That explanation was shorter than usual"), treating the entire premise as a joke is the sign of a bored writing staff that no longer cares about keeping the "world" consistent to keep the audience involved.  But of course, it's only one joke.  I should relax.

Spoiler

Of course, it's more than one joke.  We get the school newspaper having an obituary section in Earshot and pretty much the entire school knowing Buffy's secret in The Prom, and that crap about the Class of '99 having "the lowest death rate". and blech.  "Lazy snide meta" will be this show's death, IMO.

 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Halting Hex

[Halting Hex]

On 8/21/2020 at 6:50 AM, catherinejane said:

I actually assumed watching this that the demon chap was someone else, innocently going about his business (well still being Evil) and Largo was actually Post (once we knew she was evil). But appears not.

Heh, I missed this possibility when it was mentioned above.  Not totally out of bounds, since while Gwen does ask Giles for a picture of Lagos at the top of Act I, she shades him when he doesn't actually produce it, and so "looks a lot like that woman from The English Patient's sister, actually" isn't completely ruled out.  But since Giles thinks he has the Lagos image, presumably he might look at it, sooner or later, and so it is indeed more likely that Lagos was that big demonic dude, as opposed to being "by and large, woman-shaped" (to quote Giles's description of "Natalie French").

It could be, however, that Lagos was just in the area and Gwen just made up that "he's after the Glove!' riff to get Giles to do her work and find it for her.  It's not as if we ever heard Lagos interrogate Willy the Snitch about the Glove, or anything similar.  Lagos was clearly searching the cemeteries for something (it's why he ignores Faith during their "battle" and why he just moves on rather than finish her), but as we saw in What's My Line, Part 1, the cemeteries are full of stuff that might interest a demon.

I do wonder how Gwen knew that Lagos was coming at all, though.  Did he post about it on the Demons ICQ server?  Or was he an ex-boyfriend?

Quote

LAGOS:  That's it! I can't stand this lovey-dovey crap any longer! I'm going to the Hellmouth so I can roar again!

GWENDOLYNE POST, MRS (lying in bed, wearing only a sheet, pouty):  But darling…! Come back to bed, please.

LAGOS:  Zip it, Crumpet-Breath!  I'm outta here!  A de-mon's gotta do what a de-mon's gotta do!

He exits, slamming the door, leaving Gwendolyne behind.

GWENDOLYNE: Oh, feces!

Or perhaps not.  Occam's Razor, after all.

Edited March 16, 2023 by Halting Hex
Because using verbs helps.

[lembergwatcher]

5 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

I do wonder how Gwen knew that Lagos was coming at all, though.

Some sources within the demonic community?
Or she just cast a spell?.. 

[Halting Hex]

If she was that good at spell-casting, presumably she could have found the Glove on her own and not have had to deal with either Lagos or the Scoobs.

More likely is the idea of her having "sources in the demon community."  There does seem to be a certain level of intercourse (not that kind, perverts!) between humans and demons, as seen with Willy's relationship (not that kind, perverts!) with Spike and his past history with Angel.  So perhaps someone in the Watchers' Council has cultivated relationships with the demon world (perhaps Gwendolyne was even in charge of this at one point).  It would be nice to know what sort of structure exists along these lines.

[lembergwatcher]

There was a piece of fanfiction I came across years ago that suggested Willy was some sort of Council's liason in the demon world.

22 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

So perhaps someone in the Watchers' Council has cultivated relationships with the demon world

I think the WC leadership mantained contact with the underworld for many years. They could've had some shady business together. After all, the Council seems to be as corrupt as many similar organizations...

[Halting Hex]

Hey, how does Angel know how to find the Glove, anyhow?  Buffy didn't say which crypt, since she doesn't know as yet.  She didn't even tell him Lagos was looking for the Glove, just "some all-powerful whatsis".

Does this mean that Angel knew where to find the Glove last year, when he was Soul-less and fancy-free?  I guess he didn't want to use the Glove because it would clash with his leather pants?

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

Hey, how does Angel know how to find the Glove, anyhow?

He has lots of frenemies in the underworld, hasn't he? Some valuable connections, I'd say.

It's almost the same as if we start asking how exactly was Angel able to deflower Buffy since vampire = dead = no heartbeat = no blood running through his veins = no erection (if I remember all those biology classes from many years ago correctly)?
Probably some magic...

Or the sure sign that Joss should've spent a little less time hyping Buffy in the media and a little more time trying to write logical and consistent storylines...