Let's have a do-over! How The Americans might have been written better...

duVerre · April 16, 2018

On 4/14/2018 at 9:51 AM, JFParnell said:

I've been among the Stan bashers, and I don't know what the writers have against poor Noah Emmerich, but they turned him into such a doofus -- MOST of the time. Right now it seems Stan can't even find his own shoelaces without Aderholt (the brains of the operation) pointing to his feet. Just from a purely dramatic standpoint, if they were going to make Stan and Philip best buds, there should have been more moments of suspicion from Stan, more scenes where Stan gets to furrow his Stan brow and wonder, "Hmmm..." and slooowwwwly start to see. Throw us a bone! The garage scene, for example. That was cool and tense, and it looked like a promising start. How far you've fallen, Stan. Did they really place Stan and Philip ACROSS THE STREET from each other all so that Stan would just... be an unwitting pal for most of the series??? I know, I know -- he's kind of a lost/midlife/wife/crisis guy and therefore his decisions are going to be a bit wobbly sometimes, but if we're talking "how it could have been" I'd have liked a more suspicious Stan, please, to provide the kind of tension that a character in his place should offer.

I am furious with the writers on Emmerich's behalf. I think he is a really lovely actor--very quiet, very interior, everything you need and nothing you don't. But I agree that the writers abandoned the suspense of Stan and Philip living right next door to each other. Because they ate and slept just yards from each other, any random bit of behaviour that otherwise might not have been seen could have suddenly triggered Stan's suspicion. But no. Though they were guy-friends (meeting at the gym, for drinks, etc.), everything that happened between them could have occurred if Stan had lived on the other side of D.C. Why place them in each others' laps and then not use it?

I did love the way they handled Stan's romantic life--for a while, at least. He was a clueless about his marriage because he was compartmentalized and screwed up--but I felt a lot for him as he blundered along--he was a dunderhead but an earnest one.

But his love for Nina was straight-out romantic. He was totally in love with his wounded bird. It was like something out of Byron or Shelley; I wouldn't have been surprised if he'd started writing her poems. And of course, at the same time, he was scared FOR Nina, scared for her due to the risks she ran, but also scared OF Nina, scared she'd abandon and betray him. He fell all the way down the frightened lover-rabbit hole, and I loved seeing that part of him--especially because his outer self is so reserved and buttoned down. Nina was madness. Nina meant a lot to the show in so many ways, but I really loved how she brought out Stan's white knight, his protectiveness.

But with Nina's death. the introduction of Renee...and the general arrival of Season 5...the interesting stuff about Stan just disappeared. Of course, I intellectually understand that he might still finger the Jennings as illegals, and that that could happen at any moment--but I just.don't.care. The suspenseful nature of the show was allowed to sag, and I don't think they have enough time to resurrect it. As for Stan's private life, all we know is that he is apparently happy with Renee. They invite friends to dinner, wash dishes and watch VCR tapes like Breaking Away. Just another boring suburban couple--but the writers had to find a way to make Normal interesting. And they didn't. Watching their scenes was like watching paint dry. I know more about the people who try to sell me Liberty Insurance on CNN every morning than I do about Renee and Stan. Of course, they've planted a question about whether or not Renee is FBI, KGB, or what have you, but at this point I find it really hard to care.

And of course, if I knew more about Renee I would know more about Stan, because I could see why he loves her, and I'd learn about him. I care about the Stan I used to know, the Stan who's capable of great, foolish love, the Stan who also has incredible rage, who appoints himself executioner. And the Stan who takes it upon himself to blackmail the FBI, or try to. Where is that screwed-up/arrogant/murderous guy? Who is this new guy without a personality?

But I think that the writers have moved on. Back in the day, watching Mad Men after Season 3 gave me the distinct idea that Matthew Weiner got bored with his female characters long before the audience did. So the series became The Megan Show, and other females that the audience loved sort of faded away.

Somehow I feel that the powers that be are bored with Stan. That's a waste of an actor and a terrible loss the show in general. At one point, it felt that they had a real avenging angel on their hands. The Jennings deserve a good Javert, don't they? But they won't get one. The guy who's going to get them will be just another bureaucrat. Either Stan or someone at the next desk--sadly, it doesn't seem to matter.

Edited April 16, 2018 by duVerre
clarity

sistermagpie · April 16, 2018

32 minutes ago, duVerre said:

I am furious with the writers on Emmerich's behalf. I think he is a really lovely actor--very quiet, very interior, everything you need and nothing you don't. But I agree that the writers abandoned the suspense of Stan and Philip living right next door to each other.

To be fair, the showrunners have addressed this one thing and I think they're absolutely right. They couldn't keep up that suspense (at least not the "will he/won't he find out" type) because it would require the Jennings always doing things that Stan could see and Stan luckily never getting it. It would make Stan into much more of a fool and a Wile E. Coyote. So they chose to just have a personal relationship between them.

Not that this contradicts everything you're saying in general. They could keep up suspense without having Stan on their trail. It doesn't seem like they often write scenes with Stan and the Jennings while thinking, "What would this mean if Stan knew the truth?" That's another way to build suspense but it doesn't seem like they use it that much.

Could not agree more about Renee. If he'd had this wife in S1 there'd have been no domestic storyline because she seems just there to be generic. Like when he said Aderholdt would have to explain to Renee that Stan was staying at work late I thought...there's nothing about this woman that indicates she would have any trouble with that at all.

Edited April 16, 2018 by sistermagpie

Umbelina · April 16, 2018

@duVerre

I love your entire post and agree with almost all of it.

This part though, I disagree with:

Quote

But I agree that the writers abandoned the suspense of Stan and Philip living right next door to each other. Because they ate and slept just yards from each other, any random bit of behaviour that otherwise might not have been seen could have suddenly triggered Stan's suspicion. But no. Though they were guy-friends (meeting at the gym, for drinks, etc.), everything that happened between them could have occurred if Stan had lived on the other side of D.C. Why place them in each others' laps and then not use it?

A LOT of story happened because Stan lived across the street. No, he didn't burst into their living room with an "AHA! I finally caught you!" but so much story and interesting things were generated by them living close together, Gaad's death, for one thing, was completely because Stan told Philip about Thailand. (OK, that's not the best example.)

There were many things though, the Pastors meeting Stan, Stan's sometimes very awkward appearance right after Liz had murdered someone, watching Stan's house after the Mother/Father killed by son incredibly tense story, the exhale after William didn't show up, and they didn't know if he'd defected or been arrested, and either way, spilled information about them--until Stan arrived home without dozens of FBI to arrest them.

It's been extremely useful to have Stan live across the street in so many ways. It gave Martha another reason to be interesting and connected to more of the cast, Liz's shock when Aderholt arrived at Stan's, Henry seeing the sketches of mom and dad...just all kinds of things.

Also, I think it will pay off.

Still, I agree with every other word you said, especially about Renee. Actually, I'd prefer to dump almost everything from last season except the limited details we learned about Philip's childhood.

duVerre · April 16, 2018

55 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

To be fair, the showrunners have addressed this one thing and I think they're absolutely right. They couldn't keep up that suspense (at least not the "will he/won't he find out" type) because it would require the Jennings always doing things that Stan could see and Stan luckily never getting it. It would make Stan into much more of a fool and a Wile E. Coyote. So they chose to just have a personal relationship between them.

I see what you're saying. Maybe the light bulb will go on over Stan's head late this season, when the Jennings' proximity to Stan DOES cause a big reveal. That would bookend the series in a really nice way. Suspicions aroused in episode one--aroused and confirmed in the finale.

I can see that writing a really comfortable relationship between Philip and Stan has been a challenge--you want to write it so it's warm and fuzzy, but not cookie-cutter or generic. And yet, to me, that is what it's become. I wish it contained a few more specifics--a particular way, for instance, that Stan may lean on Philip and vice-versa. That would make Stan's ultimate feeling of betrayal (when it happens, and it will) even richer. I'm an optimist, though. Maybe the sleepiness, the predictability of Stan and Philip is deliberate, and soon we'll all be having the shock of our lives. I hope so, anyway. I have thrilled to this show throughout its highs, and I don't take any joy in this ... slippage.

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

@duVerre

A LOT of story happened because Stan lived across the street. No, he didn't burst into their living room with an "AHA! I finally caught you!" but so much story and interesting things were generated by them living close together, Gaad's death, for one thing, was completely because Stan told Philip about Thailand. (OK, that's not the best example.)

There were many things though, the Pastors meeting Stan, Stan's sometimes very awkward appearance right after Liz had murdered someone, watching Stan's house after the Mother/Father killed by son incredibly tense story, the exhale after William didn't show up, and they didn't know if he'd defected or been arrested, and either way, spilled information about them--until Stan arrived home without dozens of FBI to arrest them.

It's been extremely useful to have Stan live across the street in so many ways. It gave Martha another reason to be interesting and connected to more of the cast, Liz's shock when Aderholt arrived at Stan's, Henry seeing the sketches of mom and dad...just all kinds of things.

Those are excellent points, thank you!

sistermagpie · April 16, 2018

13 minutes ago, duVerre said:

I can see that writing a really comfortable relationship between Philip and Stan has been a challenge--you want to write it so it's warm and fuzzy, but not cookie-cutter or generic. And yet, to me, that is what it's become. I wish it contained a few more specifics--a particular way, for instance, that Stan may lean on Philip and vice-versa. That would make Stan's ultimate feeling of betrayal (when it happens, and it will) even richer. I'm an optimist, though. Maybe the sleepiness, the predictability of Stan and Philip is deliberate, and soon we'll all be having the shock of our lives. I hope so, anyway. I have thrilled to this show throughout its highs, and I don't take any joy in this ... slippage.

I totally agree. When I think back on all the Stan/Philip scenes, they're often pretty one-sided. Which is realistic, but a lot of their scenes are Stan being emotionally obvious about what's bothering him while Philip listens and says whatever he thinks he should say, which of course is often not really what he's thinking or feeling. Like that very first time Stan shows up at Philip's crappy motel room to talk about how Amador's been killed. Philip comes to the door with a gun and once Stan comes in drunk he's basically sitting there listening and being sympathetic knowing that he's the guy who murdered the guy. So Philip's mostly just nervous and watching Stan while Stan wants to talk.

Which of course in some ways works because you've got Stan having this one guy in his life that he's vulnerable with. That's presumably why we get him reacting so violently when his girlfriend says Philip's sleeping with Sandra--you see how Stan will turn on a dime if he thinks Philip *isn't* his milquetoast friend. And maybe it also shows that Stan is ready to believe the worst of his best friend, at least on some issues.

But it still seems generic maybe because Philip isn't doing the same thing. Like Philip doesn't seem to me to ever be longing to share himself with Stan back or scenes where Stan's saying something that seem like they're resonating with the person Philip "really" is. Except maybe when Stan's saying that KGB are animals, maybe. We know Philip cares about Stan since he was suspicious of Renee, but even Philip himself compared Stan to Martha there.

There's also times where the one-sidedness is almost comical. Even the one time Philip was really affected by something with Stan--he originally went to EST because Stan didn't want to be there alone--Philip wasn't able to talk to Stan about it. He instinctively hid it from him because Stan thought it was stupid and even after he confessed that this is why he was talking to Sandra, there's no scenes of them talking about it.

26 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Henry seeing the sketches of mom and dad...

Did that actually happen?

duVerre · April 16, 2018

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Like that very first time Stan shows up at Philip's crappy motel room to talk about how Amador's been killed. Philip comes to the door with a gun and once Stan comes in drunk he's basically sitting there listening and being sympathetic knowing that he's the guy who murdered the guy.

Oh God, how I miss this sort of thing. In emotional terms, for me, the viewer, it was absolute horror.

Umbelina · April 16, 2018

I thought he got a glimpse of the photos when he was touring the FBI office, but I freely admit, I didn't watch that BS season again, or as carefully @sistermagpie.

I think there were scenes that defined Stan's and Philip's relationship, for both men. As Stan said after they made up about the Philip and Stan's wife being "cozy" together? (not a direct quote.) From Stan: "You may not have noticed that I don't have many friends, since I came back...(from being undercover.)" unsaid but implied "so you are very important to me, or it wouldn't have hurt so much even thinking that, and I'm sorry because I know you wouldn't really do that to me. It hurt as much that YOU would as it did that SHE would."

I think Philip listening and just being who he is inside, calm, fairly caring, non-judgemental, as well as simply someone to hang out with after stressful workdays or stressful divorce days, or to replenish his beer supply or have a home cooked dinner with, even playing racquetball all are HUGE stress relievers for Stan. He's always welcome, he lived alone, it was his safe/friendly place to discuss things other than work. I think Philip is still, aside from Renee, his only non-work friend.

Remember too that Stan and family JUST moved there at the start of the show, right after the nightmare of Stan's undercover gig. So he didn't know anyone in town, a friendly couple came over with muffins, they hit it off.

Basically, I'm saying, why else to you become friends with someone when you've just arrived in a new house and town?

For Philip, I agree, since he knows so much more he can't be completely honest with Stan, but I think he looks for those moments that he CAN be and puts effort into that. It is a bit like Martha, but Martha was straight up work, where Stan really isn't just that to Philip. When Elizabeth kicked him out, for example, Stan hung out.

If Philip wasn't KGB? He would still be friends with Stan. IMO of course.

Edited April 16, 2018 by Umbelina

sistermagpie · April 16, 2018

Just now, Umbelina said:

I thought he got a glimpse of the photos when he was touring the FBI office, but I freely admit, I didn't watch that BS season again, or as carefully

I feel like it could have happened--the pictures are up there on a wall! Really, even if it didn't just Henry getting that tour is pretty good. It's the same idea.

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

From Stan: "You may not have noticed that I don't have many friends, since I came back...(from being undercover.)"

Yes, to me I feel like that scene absolutely nails what Philip is to Stan. I think the family is also important to him. Stan started the series unable to connect to his family and then losing them, and then he was basically adopted by the Jennings family when he would have been terrible lonely.

The other thing that's great about that Stan/Philip moment is that I love how Philip is going over there to apologize even though it seems like he really doesn't want to because he doesn't like the accusation from Stan. Then he has to go over and grovel. He calls himself "a wimp" for not telling Stan about Sandra and EST, and then even repeats it. This is after Sandra rolls her eyes at Stan getting physical and says he "always has to be the tough guy."

And it works. Stan's confession about not having many friends besides Philip--that's something Stan gives because he feels bad (much like Elizabeth explains to Paige about the Tims' accusation about Ethiopia). But there's also that whole tough guy/wimp thing that makes Stan feel safe, imo. It's not that he thinks Philip's a big weakling, but I think he likes that Philip isn't in the business, thinks he isn't exposed to the kind of things Stan is. I know I can't help but feel like that will be a big disconnect for Stan, to try to imagine Philip being as dangerous as he is.

7 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

If Philip wasn't KGB? He would still be friends with Stan. IMO of course.

I agree. In fact, now I'm thinking there's a nice theme in the show the way the way it casually shows the guy character (it's mostly guys anyway) bonding over sports just as a symbol people enjoying hanging out, playing together, whatever. (Poor Matthew even says he no longer likes watching sports because he used to do it with his father.) That's what people often do as friends. It's fun and it's meaningful even if they're not talking about Saving The World. Maybe it seems more significant this season because Elizabeth is being so contemptuous of all that every day stuff. Paige I think just enjoys her time at Claudia's because they're together, but Elizabeth and Claudia are doing it professionally. Meanwhile hockey is a good excuse for Philip to hang out with Henry, though it's not the only thing they talk about. Stan and Philip aren't constantly having deep conversations, but regular racket ball games are also about hanging out and talking about their every day lives.

duVerre · April 16, 2018

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think there were scenes that defined Stan's and Philip's relationship, for both men. As Stan said after they made up about the Philip and Stan's wife being "cozy" together? (not a direct quote.) From Stan: "You may not have noticed that I don't have many friends, since I came back...(from being undercover.)" unsaid but implied "so you are very important to me, or it wouldn't have hurt so much even thinking that, and I'm sorry because I know you wouldn't really do that to me. It hurt as much that YOU would as it did that SHE would."

I think Philip listening and just being who he is inside, calm, fairly caring, non-judgemental, as well as simply someone to hang out with after stressful workdays or stressful divorce days, or to replenish his beer supply or have a home cooked dinner with, even playing racquetball all are HUGE stress relievers for Stan. He's always welcome, he lived alone, it was his safe/friendly place to discuss things other than work. I think Philip is still, aside from Renee, his only non-work friend.

Remember too that Stan and family JUST moved there at the start of the show, right after the nightmare of Stan's undercover gig. So he didn't know anyone in town, a friendly couple came over with muffins, they hit it off.

Basically, I'm saying, why else to you become friends with someone when you've just arrived in a new house and town?

For Philip, I agree, since he knows so much more he can't be completely honest with Stan, but I think he looks for those moments that he CAN be and puts effort into that. It is a bit like Martha, but Martha was straight up work, where Stan really isn't just that to Philip. When Elizabeth kicked him out, for example, Stan hung out.

If Philip wasn't KGB? He would still be friends with Stan. IMO of course.

There was a lot of poignancy in Stan's halting but from-the-heart confessions to Philip during season one. I haven't rewatched for a while, but IIRC they continued into season 2. And of course, Phil can't confide in Stan a similar manner for obvious reasons.

I think that what I was trying to say--and said badly--is that, for me, this aspect of the relationship has ceased to develop. This often happens, of course, when people get married and the spouse becomes their principal confidante. And it is natural that the first really personal conversations between Stan and Philip would be a bit raw. And then it follows that they would become more comfortable, more casual, over time, and that the really fraught stuff, having been expressed, would be put away.

To me, the relationship now seems quite general and complacent. But it doesn't seem very dramatically useful the way it is. I once had a playwriting teacher who advised me to "always leave an open nerve." Maybe I'm still under that teacher's spell.

Of course, the writers may intend to lull us into a state of complacency about Stan and Phil. If so, I would have to say that in my case--again, speaking only for myself--they have done it all too well, to the point where I don't know what the show is anymore. So I'm waiting for them to pull me back in, and to do it with a vengeance.

sistermagpie · April 16, 2018

5 minutes ago, duVerre said:

To me, the relationship now seems quite general and complacent. But it doesn't seem very dramatically useful the way it is. I once had a playwriting teacher who advised me to "always leave an open nerve." Maybe I'm still under that teacher's spell.

I get what you mean. Especially because we now have a time jump and we don't know how Stan's marriage has changed things. At the end of last season Renee was literally taking Philip's place on the court. We know they're still friends--Stan and Renee had the Jennings over for dinner. But Aderholdt was also there (so Stan's made another friend). He tells Renee that Elizabeth is often away from the office so it seems Philip might be talking about not seeing Elizabeth as much as he'd like, at least. Stan also knows how well Henry's doing at hockey, which he's probably getting from Philip. But the Stan/Philip friendship just seems kind of there without having anything going on in it at this point, which is where it was in season 5 as well.

But maybe they'll be some interesting twists there before the reveal. I admit, though, that right now I'm much more interested in seeing Philip being friends with Oleg!

Umbelina · April 16, 2018

54 minutes ago, duVerre said:

I think that what I was trying to say--and said badly--is that, for me, this aspect of the relationship has ceased to develop. This often happens, of course, when people get married and the spouse becomes their principal confidante.

To me, the relationship now seems quite general and complacent. But it doesn't seem very dramatically useful the way it is. I once had a playwriting teacher who advised me to "always leave an open nerve." Maybe I'm still under that teacher's spell.

Of course, the writers may intend to lull us into a state of complacency about Stan and Phil. If so, I would have to say that in my case--again, speaking only for myself--they have done it all too well, to the point where I don't know what the show is anymore. So I'm waiting for them to pull me back in, and to do it with a vengeance.

I agree, and last season we saw Philip's reaction to not only Stan telling him that he plays racquetball with Renee now, but also to Renee herself.

You know, I don't think it's the people watching who are seeing zebras when it's really just a horse. The fact that trained and excellent KGB officer PHILIP didn't trust Renee that triggered me the most. They've let it drag on too long now though, and I am also bored, and frankly, will be pretty pissed if Renee is a reverse/negative deus ex machina at this late date.

Because, IF so? Grrrrrrrrr But how can she not be with Philip suspecting her, and the writers obviously sacrificing the Philip/Stan relationship?

That said, a new love, and certainly a new marriage can definitely put a crimp in friendships. They become more of a "couples" thing than an individual thing if both are in relationships, and if not, they often can fall by the wayside.

--

I'm more interested in the probably doomed relationship between Oleg and Philip as well @sistermagpie, and even that has possibilities, because Stan actually cares about and has had pretty deep relationships with both of those men.

Of the two, I hope Oleg survives. I think this show is going to end with a lot of blood though, so it's very possible neither will survive.

Edited April 16, 2018 by Umbelina
w not y

sistermagpie · April 16, 2018

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Of the two, I hope Oleg survives. I think this show is going to end with a lot of blood though, so it's very possible neither will survive.

LOL--that just makes me think that poor Stan already freaked out that Philip was hanging with Sandra. Now he's hanging with Oleg as well!

I really just hope they write interesting scenes for them where they are something like friends. So often even when Philip gets somebody interesting to hang out with (like William) he'll wind up saying he didn't even know if he liked the guy.

Umbelina · April 16, 2018

Philip and Oleg have a lot of reasons to not form any kind of fast friendship or judgement right now though, they are both treading on snake filled mud, and a wife of decades that may need to be killed.

I wonder if Philip and Elizabeth ever found out that William killed himself to protect them and Gabe?

The writers just dropped it. That's kind of annoying really, if Stan was ever going to slip and say a little thing, not really details, but just some tiny thing to Philip? That was the time I wish he had, not at the end of that excellent episode, but referred to in shitty season 5 would have been nice.

"Some KGB guy just killed himself today" or "we caught someone, but he...took something...so...." would have done it. Even just "I haven't slept for days, and it turned out to be mostly for nothing, well, not really, we did get our hands back on something ... important" or whatever, the smallest thing would have let Philip know that William sacrificed himself for them, and for Gabe.

Edited April 16, 2018 by Umbelina

Ellaria · April 16, 2018

1 hour ago, duVerre said:

I think that what I was trying to say--and said badly--is that, for me, this aspect of the relationship has ceased to develop. This often happens, of course, when people get married and the spouse becomes their principal confidante. And it is natural that the first really personal conversations between Stan and Philip would be a bit raw. And then it follows that they would become more comfortable, more casual, over time, and that the really fraught stuff, having been expressed, would be put away.

To me, the relationship now seems quite general and complacent. But it doesn't seem very dramatically useful the way it is. I once had a playwriting teacher who advised me to "always leave an open nerve." Maybe I'm still under that teacher's spell.

Of course, the writers may intend to lull us into a state of complacency about Stan and Phil. If so, I would have to say that in my case--again, speaking only for myself--they have done it all too well, to the point where I don't know what the show is anymore. So I'm waiting for them to pull me back in, and to do it with a vengeance.

I don’t think that you have said it badly at all. In fact, I think your defense of the character of Stan and how the writing has betrayed him is thoughtfully stated. I also like Emmerich as an actor and I am incredibly disappointed in the turns his character has taken.

I also agree with your “take” on the relationship between Philip and Stan and its importance to the show. Early on, it was brilliant to watch these two damaged men begin to bond. There was a sense of wariness in the friendship that was inherent in who these men were...and it was compelling. Now, it’s just dull.

The writers seem to be defining Stan now through Renee. I’m glad that Stan has found domestic bliss but I don’t care about Renee. I’m long past wondering if she has a secret identity.

And regarding your statement below about Philip and Stan being neighbors...

This appears to be of little importance now. Sure, it was exciting in the pilot episode when they were sneaking around in the garage. And it was funny and awkward when he dropped in unexpectedly on dinner with the Tims.

It probably seemed like a great idea in the writers room. “Hey, we will have the counter-intelligence FBI guy and the KGB agent living across the street from each other. Won’t that be cool?!” Problem is that it wasn’t sustainable. And now neither Philip or Elizabeth think twice about Stan.

4 hours ago, duVerre said:

But I agree that the writers abandoned the suspense of Stan and Philip living right next door to each other. Because they ate and slept just yards from each other, any random bit of behaviour that otherwise might not have been seen could have suddenly triggered Stan's suspicion. But no. Though they were guy-friends (meeting at the gym, for drinks, etc.), everything that happened between them could have occurred if Stan had lived on the other side of D.C. Why place them in each others' laps and then not use it?

Edited April 16, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

duVerre · April 16, 2018

50 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I'm more interested in the probably doomed relationship between Oleg and Philip as well @sistermagpie, and even that has possibilities, because Stan actually cares about and has had pretty deep relationships with both of those men.

Of the two, I hope Oleg survives. I think this show is going to end with a lot of blood though, so it's very possible neither will survive.

I need LOTS of footage of the Philip-Oleg relationship, and I need Oleg to survive. I've endured a lot of tough stuff from The Americans (i.e. death of Nina). But the death of Oleg? Don't go there, writers. Give that sad-eyed idealist a great big break.

duVerre · April 16, 2018

3 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

There was a sense of wariness in the friendship that was inherent in who these men were...and it was compelling. Now, it’s just dull.

The writers seem to be defining Stan now through Renee. I’m glad that Stan has found domestic bliss but I don’t care about Renee. I’m long past wondering if she has a secret identity.

There, you put your finger on it. Philip is no longer the "way in" to Stan, and without that, Stan is cut adrift. And Renee can't give us any insights into him because we don't have any insights into Renee. What kind of person is she? What's her history? She doesn't need a lot of screen time, but the writers should suggest a few things. Does she have a sense of humour? Is she the leader type, a follower, a helper??? Smart or dumb? What does she like about Stan? All we need are little things, a suggestive moment, split seconds to muse on. I was thinking about that "Breaking Away" scene a while ago. Unless her incorrect reference to the "U of I" is a clue to her using a false identity, the few lines of dialogue about the movie could have been used to tell us about Renee...like "I always felt sorry for the little runt of a guy with no family in this thing" or "I wish I could chase a dream like that kid with the bike." Something like that would take 1 or 2 seconds, and would tell us a bit about her without being on-the-nose. Unfortunately, the way the writers have handled things, I feel like I understand the Greek guy at the travel agency more than I understand Stan's wife.

When I do wonder if she's going to turn out to have some sort of secret affiliation, those thoughts are brought on for plot reasons only, not because Renee as a character compels me.

Full disclosure: Breaking Away is one of my favourite movies. It is perfect. Don't argue with me! :)

Bannon · April 16, 2018

I have to say, once again (and I know some here differ with me), that Stan has been so poorly written that I've never bought any of his relationships. In isolation, could an FBI agent behave the way Stan has been portrayed? Yes, but Stan is not a typical FBI agent. Stan is an FBI agent who willfully separated himself from his family for years, to live undercover amongst a hyperviolent criminal gang. I can't emphasize this enough: a man who would do that has to have a significant sociopathic element to his personality. There isn't a darn thing in this show that Stan has done which is typical of a person with a significant sociopathic element to his personality. Even the serious rule breaking he has engaged in does not root itself in sociopathy. He murders a Russian out of a need to avenge his partner's death. He breaks rules out of love and regard for Nina and Oleg. This is not a man who was willing to say "Hey, family, have good few years, as I cut myself off from you!".

The reaction to his predictably failed marriage, his relationship with Phil, his getting gooey with Nina, etc., all of it seems false to me. Yes, a person with Stan's experiences could be experiencing PTSD, but I don't think Stan's PTSD would manifest itself in Stan getting sentimental, and that is what Stan has displayed. It's been a problem for me with this show early on, and I think it is due to either the writers not doing research on American law enforcement personnel who lived undercover for years, or they did the research, and just decided to ignore it, because they wanted the show to go in the direction they wanted. They should have just made Stan a standard issue FBI agent, assigned to counter intelligence.

sistermagpie · April 16, 2018

12 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I wonder if Philip and Elizabeth ever found out that William killed himself to protect them and Gabe?

Iirc, we saw them find that out. Gabriel told them. Philip noted that they'd wondered if he might have been a traitor and it turned out he was a big hero. That's why they could take a piece of his body, that he'd infected himself. (And the FBI had weirdly chosen not to burn the body!)

12 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Philip and Oleg have a lot of reasons to not form any kind of fast friendship or judgement right now though, they are both treading on snake filled mud, and a wife of decades that may need to be killed.

Yeah, I agree. But that in itself makes me hope they get to a place where there's connection. I'm not sure the show would even be interested in that, though. Sometimes it seems like the show agrees with Elizabeth that Philip should only be focused on her. LOL. Philip and Oleg would be too wary to become friends fast, but we know how much they have in common so it would be good if they did. Especially because they also have the opportunity to talk about Russia in the 80s in contrast to Elizabeth's nostalgia. If Elizabeth can be as per usual having deep chats with tons of people, let Philip have somebody to talk to. Maybe Oleg might even ask about his backstory! Maybe he knows his backstory if Arkady had read his file and told him. (It would make sense for Arkady to give him info if he's sending him to convince Philip to do this.)

11 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

The writers seem to be defining Stan now through Renee. I’m glad that Stan has found domestic bliss but I don’t care about Renee. I’m long past wondering if she has a secret identity.

Which is so hard because she's such a nothing. They try to spin it as a good thing that maybe she's suspicious but it just makes her seem like a fake person. Her speech about wanting to join the FBI, for instance, was very strange. It makes Stan himself less of a character because he seems to be just playing suburban husband to Renee's suburban wife.

11 hours ago, duVerre said:

Does she have a sense of humour? Is she the leader type, a follower, a helper??? Smart or dumb? What does she like about Stan?

We also have no idea how she fits into his family life. Any second wife of a guy with a kid would have some relationship with his ex. Matthew would be almost finished college now. How's that relationship going? Matthew seemed to just accept Renee as somebody his dad was into now so that his dad talked about nothing else while Matthew had sort of checked out. Like he'd given up having any great relationship with Stan himself so he was just polite to Renee and there probably wasn't any need for anything beyond that. Sort of interesting that in the premiere everybody's squealing over Paige the college student's sass and Elizabeth mentions that Henry's really tall now and Stan knows he plays hockey but it doesn't inspire Stan or Renee to say anything about Matthew.

51 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Even the serious rule breaking he has engaged in does not root itself in sociopathy. He

On the contrary. His rule-breaking was almost the other type. He did it because he thought it was justice. The main thing he honestly seemed to love about Nina was that she gave him a heroic role to play. He desperately wants to be a hero, just like he dreamed about reading the comics as a kid. He wants a son and a girlfriend that see him as a hero as well.

53 minutes ago, Bannon said:

They should have just made Stan a standard issue FBI agent, assigned to counter intelligence.

I agree. Really the only thing they used it for was the reason for Stan to feel alienated from his family, which they could have done in other ways. Either by giving him some assignment where he was away from home (or often away from home) or just the stress of the job creeping in combined with Matthew's adolescence, like with Philip and Elizabeth.

Sarah 103 · April 16, 2018

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Elizabeth mentions that Henry's really tall now and Stan knows he plays hockey but it doesn't inspire Stan or Renee to say anything about Matthew.

That is surprising and I totally missed it. Obviously they are passed the stage where all they talk about is thier kids but a quick update seems about right, especially since Henry was just mentioned.

sistermagpie · April 16, 2018

15 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

That is surprising and I totally missed it. Obviously they are passed the stage where all they talk about is thier kids but a quick update seems about right, especially since Henry was just mentioned.

And Aderholdt's there with his baby as well. The premiere had a lot of focus on kids--we got new Paige and new Henry, plus new babies for Aderholdt and Oleg. Even Gennady and Sophia have a kid (I think maybe that's her kid?). But with Stan they didn't think it was natural to have him give us an update on Matthew. I don't know if they just didn't want to bring that in, or if they assumed everyone would already be caught up on Matthew, but thinking about it it seems like an omission.

Umbelina · April 16, 2018

Yeah, I have blocked last season from my memory. Of course, since they dug up his body they would know he was infected. Still, they could have thought it was an accident, like what happened to Gabe with the Lassa Virus.

The only one that could have told Philip was Stan really, he was there to watch William do it to himself.

I actually like the writing for Stan. I'm re-watching seasons now, started with four, now back to season one.

Stan spent 3 years undercover with an extremely violent White Supremacist group "you have no idea." He did get to see his wife and child rarely. When he meet him? He's just back, he's received honors/citations for his work. 24 convictions, and who knows how many deaths in there as well. He is assigned to counter-intelligence for the first time. To think he didn't have some PTSD would be silly.

In CI, he had many successes. Nina was a huge success, the first KGB agent inside the Residentura ever recruited, and because of Nina's information, several other successes. Stan spotted Zainaida (sp?) as a plant too, when no one else did, and he brought her down, saving the country from who knows what, but it wouldn't have been good. Stan formed a relationship with Oleg, and handled him perfectly, resulting in stopping William, and a deadly bio-weapon from being smuggled out. (Others should have burned William's body, but that's not on Stan, he's not a scientist.) Stan was the one to suspect Martha, resulting in stopping a KGB agent who had been spying on the FBI for years.

In a real FBI agents career? Any ONE of those things would have been a "career maker" something you could dine out on for year, or rest on your laurels about. Stan has very good instincts about people, yes he's awkward personally at times, but that could also be what helps him spot others.

I agree though that last season, and the character of Renee, has brought Stan down to a boring and unknowable character. I think it's deliberate. Will it be worth it? Who knows?

Honestly the writing was SO GOOD for SO LONG and then became SO BAD it's unbelievable. Just watching the first 3 episodes of Season One last night is such a shock, and I KNOW what happens, but I was still on the edge of my seat and captivated. True, not as much as the first time I watched, but that was another cool thing, just remembering watching the first time.

So far, this current season is somewhere between the greatness of seasons 1-4, and the terrible and boring water-treading season 5. I'm just hoping in the last episodes of the final season? We get some of that previous greatness back.

Enough of the laying groundwork. In a podcast the writers said something about "after the first three, we got to really start going with our story the way we want to tell it." I SO hope that is true!

Edited April 16, 2018 by Umbelina
y

CaliCheeseSucks · April 16, 2018

Oh boy, I had completely blocked out the nonsense with digging up Dylan Baker's body. If were ever to go back and track where I felt the train truly derailed irrevocably with this show, that would be a key moment. The idea that these two spies, and Hans, were able to correctly geo-locate William's unmarked grave on the grounds of a military installation and dig it up in the middle of the night just to steal a bio-weapon. Never mind that they'd successfully cover their tracks to the point that the military never noticed that the spot was tampered with or that a new dead guy was now in the same grave.

sistermagpie · April 16, 2018

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The only one that could have told Philip was Stan really, he was there to watch William do it to himself.

No, Gabriel definitely told them that William infected himself. No idea how Gabriel would have known that, but they were told explicitly that William infected himself.

1 minute ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

Never mind that they'd successfully cover their tracks to the point that the military never noticed that the spot was tampered with or that a new dead guy was now in the same grave.

And that although he had a bit DO NOT BURN sign on him, it still made little sense he wasn't burned.

CaliCheeseSucks · April 16, 2018

Just now, sistermagpie said:

And that although he had a bit DO NOT BURN sign on him, it still made little sense he wasn't burned.

OH yes. I mean, starting with that - there's no way they would not have incinerated a human bio-hazard like that.

"DO NOT BURN. PLOT MOVED FORWARD BY KEEPING HIM IN THE GROUND."

Umbelina · April 16, 2018

Was that in the first episode that Gabe told them?

OK, that's ONE moment I would like to go back and watch.

I wonder whatever happened to Tuan?

SlovakPrincess · April 16, 2018

Maybe burning William’s body would’ve spewed biotoxin into the air? Does that even make sense? (I’m not so good at science, lol).

Umbelina · April 16, 2018

Oh, there is one point in my rewatch, must have been season four, last episode. Paige is kind of on board with the whole KGB thing anyway.

So Paige is really questioning what Philip is going out to DO, don't they trust her, tell her, she knows now, typical whiney assed Paige BS. So Philip basically says he's going out to get a weapon for the USSR to use to retaliate against the USA in the case of their nukes/country being wiped out.

Paige sits there and does her eyebrow thing. Philip leaves to meet William.

WHY DIDN'T Paige say "You do realize that Henry and I LIVE here, right? So the weapon will be used to kill US? WHAT dad? You are going to help them wipe out my country?"

but there was nothing but the sad face and eyebrows.

Edited April 16, 2018 by Umbelina

Umbelina · April 16, 2018

22 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

Maybe burning William’s body would’ve spewed biotoxin into the air? Does that even make sense? (I’m not so good at science, lol).

We would have containment for that. Aside from that, with the Lassa Virus, remember, heat killed it completely. William said 135 degrees should do it, but I'm not taking any chances and then he turned the oven up higher and put the whole thing in.

sistermagpie · April 16, 2018

49 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

WHY DIDN'T Paige say "You do realize that Henry and I LIVE here, right? So the weapon will be used to kill US? WHAT dad? You are going to help them wipe out my country?"

She seems incapable of making that connection. Presumably she still thinks thinks the USSR only acts defensively. Weapons aren't actually used against anybody.

The Gabriel scene is in Amber Waves. I don't remember exactly what he says but I was sure the while story was in it.

1 hour ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

DO NOT BURN. PLOT MOVED FORWARD BY KEEPING HIM IN THE GROUND."

Lol! PLOT DEVICE: DO NOT BURN!!!

Ellaria · April 16, 2018

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I wonder whatever happened to Tuan?

Shhh...they might hear you and decide to bring him back as a love interest for Paige.

All kidding aside, Tuan was far from a favorite of mine but it is kind of odd that we haven't heard a word about him.

Edited April 16, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

Umbelina · April 16, 2018

I liked Tuan.

Anyway, Philip had just TOLD Paige that he was going out to get 'part of a' weapon that would help the Soviet Union retaliated against the USA, should the Soviet Union be decimated by our bombs. So, yeah, even idiot Paige should be able to put it together than her dad was running out to ensure the USA would be wiped out as well.

Bannon · April 17, 2018

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Yeah, I have blocked last season from my memory. Of course, since they dug up his body they would know he was infected. Still, they could have thought it was an accident, like what happened to Gabe with the Lassa Virus.

The only one that could have told Philip was Stan really, he was there to watch William do it to himself.

I actually like the writing for Stan. I'm re-watching seasons now, started with four, now back to season one.

Stan spent 3 years undercover with an extremely violent White Supremacist group "you have no idea." He did get to see his wife and child rarely. When he meet him? He's just back, he's received honors/citations for his work. 24 convictions, and who knows how many deaths in there as well. He is assigned to counter-intelligence for the first time. To think he didn't have some PTSD would be silly.

In CI, he had many successes. Nina was a huge success, the first KGB agent inside the Residentura ever recruited, and because of Nina's information, several other successes. Stan spotted Zainaida (sp?) as a plant too, when no one else did, and he brought her down, saving the country from who knows what, but it wouldn't have been good. Stan formed a relationship with Oleg, and handled him perfectly, resulting in stopping William, and a deadly bio-weapon from being smuggled out. (Others should have burned William's body, but that's not on Stan, he's not a scientist.) Stan was the one to suspect Martha, resulting in stopping a KGB agent who had been spying on the FBI for years.

In a real FBI agents career? Any ONE of those things would have been a "career maker" something you could dine out on for year, or rest on your laurels about. Stan has very good instincts about people, yes he's awkward personally at times, but that could also be what helps him spot others.

I agree though that last season, and the character of Renee, has brought Stan down to a boring and unknowable character. I think it's deliberate. Will it be worth it? Who knows?

Honestly the writing was SO GOOD for SO LONG and then became SO BAD it's unbelievable. Just watching the first 3 episodes of Season One last night is such a shock, and I KNOW what happens, but I was still on the edge of my seat and captivated. True, not as much as the first time I watched, but that was another cool thing, just remembering watching the first time.

So far, this current season is somewhere between the greatness of seasons 1-4, and the terrible and boring water-treading season 5. I'm just hoping in the last episodes of the final season? We get some of that previous greatness back.

Enough of the laying groundwork. In a podcast the writers said something about "after the first three, we got to really start going with our story the way we want to tell it." I SO hope that is true!

The issue is not that Stan had PTSD. The issue is that PTSD would not manifest itself, in the way portrayed, in a person sociopathic enough to abandon his family, for sake of career, no matter how much courage it took, or noble the cause. This isn't WWII, with 16 million in uniform, due to an existential threat to society. It's a violent criminal gang. A man who would leave his family for that job really doesn't want family life. That is in good measure why he takes the job.

To me, his behavior has always been at odds with his bio, and as a result, none of his relationships have made any sense. In the media thread, somebody recently linked to an Emmerich intetview. In it, he mentions his surprise at Stan's marriage as being written the way it was, because his impression was that it was a happy one. This puzzles me greatly, and leads me to think that zero research went into the character, because the most basic research would show that the failure rate for marriages, with agents who seperate themselves from their families for that length of time, is pretty close to 100%. These are not happy marriages, and were nearly always troubled beforehand, which is partly why the assignment appears inviting for the agent. Which is why the eventual divorce is not traumatic.

Bannon · April 17, 2018

4 hours ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

Oh boy, I had completely blocked out the nonsense with digging up Dylan Baker's body. If were ever to go back and track where I felt the train truly derailed irrevocably with this show, that would be a key moment. The idea that these two spies, and Hans, were able to correctly geo-locate William's unmarked grave on the grounds of a military installation and dig it up in the middle of the night just to steal a bio-weapon. Never mind that they'd successfully cover their tracks to the point that the military never noticed that the spot was tampered with or that a new dead guy was now in the same grave.

There's a lot to like in the show, but realistic plotting with regard action and espionage is not among them. I almost dropped the show (and am glad I didn't) because the end of the season 1 finale was so ineptly executed. It was as if the FBI has no contingency when the subject of a stakeout makes a run for it in a car. Regrettable.

Along those lines, I generally liked the Larrick arc, but, no, even two highly trained agents can't penetrate a covert operations base for the U.S. military in the fashion depicted. There had to be a better way to write that.

sistermagpie · April 17, 2018

3 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

All kidding aside, Tuan was far from a favorite of mine but it is kind of odd that we haven't heard a word about him.

I think it would be weird if we did. He worked for a different agency and once that job was over he'd have disappeared into a different life just like them. We're meant to imagine him going off on his own and either taking Elizabeth's advice or not. Though it's really Elizabeth who's forgotten her own advice. She thinks just having Philip as a physical presence is the same thing as having a partner.

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

So, yeah, even idiot Paige should be able to put it together than her dad was running out to ensure the USA would be wiped out as well.

That might be giving idiot Paige too much credit. I mean, in that moment she just wanted to be "in on it" so she probably wasn't even thinking this stuff through. Her "great" was more just satisfaction at making her father answer her. But I'll bet she still would have been able to imagine the USSR acting defensively in a way that didn't involve massive destruction. Even though she's seen The Day After. Note she also doesn't question the assumption that the USSR will be retaliating after the USA attacks them. Who says the USSR wouldn't just use the weapon to attack?

Oh wait, that's exactly what happened. That weapon was the bio-weapon they used in Afghanistan.

I think the fact that Philip quoted Paige as saying the person who killed himself was "an army guy" I think still seems to imply that she's not really interested in the Cold War she's allegedly devoting her life to. In some ways I guess she's like Elizabeth in just believing that any order she's given is somehow good, but Elizabeth trusts the Centre after a lifetime of conditioning. Paige is trusting Elizabeth. Elizabeth probably didn't refer to the General as "an army guy" even if she didn't identify his rank.

Quote

The issue is not that Stan had PTSD. The issue is that PTSD would not manifest itself, in the way portrayed, in a person sociopathic enough to abandon his family, for sake of career, no matter how much courage it took, or noble the cause.

The PTSD also never manifested itself in behavior that he'd become conditioned to in a gang.

Edited April 17, 2018 by sistermagpie

CaliCheeseSucks · April 17, 2018

3 hours ago, Bannon said:

There's a lot to like in the show, but realistic plotting with regard action and espionage is not among them. I almost dropped the show (and am glad I didn't) because the end of the season 1 finale was so ineptly executed. It was as if the FBI has no contingency when the subject of a stakeout makes a run for it in a car. Regrettable.

Along those lines, I generally liked the Larrick arc, but, no, even two highly trained agents can't penetrate a covert operations base for the U.S. military in the fashion depicted. There had to be a better way to write that.

My personal feeling has been if the show didn't do it all of the time, they could better get away with these suspensions of disbelief - precisely because they were limited in nature. My problem has been the show going to the suspension-of-disbelief well so many times - all the while maintaining its supposed to be at heart a domestic drama - that those missions have become laughable. I think it was in season four where the number of times we were expected to buy what Philip and Elizabeth were doing in a single twenty-four hour period - including wig and makeup changes, transportation time here to there and back, on top of pretending to run a travel agency - just became eye-rollingly, unintentionally hilarious. It worked if you bought that they never ever sleeped, got tired, or slipped up in any way. In other words, it worked as a cartoon.

I'd rather the showrunners had been honest and not puffed themselves up so much about their true goal, because really, this has been for some time now a cartoonish show about superspies. There's still hints of what could have been with the non-Jennings family members. But when reviewers and commenters alike began obsessing over music and wig reports? That's when I think the showrunners made the conscious decision to emphasize style (wigs, music, other fan service-friendly Easter Eggs) over substance (meaningful, believable plot developments).

Edited April 17, 2018 by CaliCheeseSucks

Bannon · April 17, 2018

56 minutes ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

My personal feeling has been if the show didn't do it all of the time, they could better get away with these suspensions of disbelief - precisely because they were limited in nature. My problem has been the show going to the suspension-of-disbelief well so many times - all the while maintaining its supposed to be at heart a domestic drama - that those missions have become laughable. I think it was in season four where the number of times we were expected to buy what Philip and Elizabeth were doing in a single twenty-four hour period - including wig and makeup changes, transportation time here to there and back, on top of pretending to run a travel agency - just became eye-rollingly, unintentionally hilarious. It worked if you bought that they never ever sleeped, got tired, or slipped up in any way. In other words, it worked as a cartoon.

I'd rather the showrunners had been honest and not puffed themselves up so much about their true goal, because really, this has been for some time now a cartoonish show about superspies. There's still hints of what could have been with the non-Jennings family members. But when reviewers and commenters alike began obsessing over music and wig reports? That's when I think the showrunners made the conscious decision to emphasize style (wigs, music, other fan service-friendly Easter Eggs) over substance (meaningful, believable plot developments).

I pretty much agree with all of this. I said in season 1 that this show needed more John LeCarre, and less James Bond. I think I was right.

Sarah 103 · April 17, 2018

8 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Stan has very good instincts about people, yes he's awkward personally at times, but that could also be what helps him spot others.

I never thought about that but you make a good point. Someone who has to work harder at understanding people may be more likely to pick up on things that others miss because they are paying closer attention.

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

The PTSD also never manifested itself in behavior that he'd become conditioned to in a gang.

I am confused by what you wrote. An explaination would be greatly apperciated because I'd love to know what you meant with this point.

sistermagpie · April 17, 2018

10 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

I am confused by what you wrote. An explaination would be greatly apperciated because I'd love to know what you meant with this point.

No problem! I meant that we're told that Stan is trying to integrate back into his family after years undercover and he feels alienated from his family. That part we saw. But for those 3 years Stan would have become another character, one who was part of a white supremacist gang. He'd have gotten used to the norms of that world. He would have had to encourage all the elements of his own personality that could inhabit that personality. Or even just reprogram himself about what was normal behavior. For example, I knew somebody once who mentioned that her husband, who'd recently returned from Iraq, was always hopping up to check sounds that he claimed to have heard. That made sense--he was on hyper-alert for threats. He's back at home, but he can't just stop acting like a soldier.

If Philip and Elizabeth went back to Russia they might come across as American because they got used to smiling more so they would fit in in the USA. In Russia they'd look strange without realizing it because that would have become more normal to them even if they themselves always still felt like they never got used to the smiling.

With Stan, he's been acting like a violent racist in a hyper-masculine world. He might overreact overly violently to imagined slights. Have flashes of disturbing behavior with his rebellious son or wife. Still have a knee-jerk hostility to groups his character hated. Say or do things that are abnormal in suburban Virginia. Hell, he might even use a racial slur out of habit.

With Stan there's no sense of this phantom character hanging around him, little traces of his undercover persona coming out in his personality. There are times when he's violent, but it always fits comfortably in the personality that we know, imo. When he threatens Philip, for instance, it seems pretty controlled--Sandra isn't surprised by it.

Bannon · April 17, 2018

18 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

No problem! I meant that we're told that Stan is trying to integrate back into his family after years undercover and he feels alienated from his family. That part we saw. But for those 3 years Stan would have become another character, one who was part of a white supremacist gang. He'd have gotten used to the norms of that world. He would have had to encourage all the elements of his own personality that could inhabit that personality. Or even just reprogram himself about what was normal behavior. For example, I knew somebody once who mentioned that her husband, who'd recently returned from Iraq, was always hopping up to check sounds that he claimed to have heard. That made sense--he was on hyper-alert for threats. He's back at home, but he can't just stop acting like a soldier.

If Philip and Elizabeth went back to Russia they might come across as American because they got used to smiling more so they would fit in in the USA. In Russia they'd look strange without realizing it because that would have become more normal to them even if they themselves always still felt like they never got used to the smiling.

With Stan, he's been acting like a violent racist in a hyper-masculine world. He might overreact overly violently to imagined slights. Have flashes of disturbing behavior with his rebellious son or wife. Still have a knee-jerk hostility to groups his character hated. Say or do things that are abnormal in suburban Virginia. Hell, he might even use a racial slur out of habit.

With Stan there's no sense of this phantom character hanging around him, little traces of his undercover persona coming out in his personality. There are times when he's violent, but it always fits comfortably in the personality that we know, imo. When he threatens Philip, for instance, it seems pretty controlled--Sandra isn't surprised by it.

PRECISELY! Think about how women are treated in AB Biker gang culture. Think about how Stan interacts with Nina. It's completely ridiculous, and, again, it leads me to think that with all the research that went into the characters of Phil and Liz, absolutely no research took place with Stan's character. The interview with Emmerich linked in the media thread really confirms it for me. Six years in, and the people making this show have no idea who one of the most important characters is.

SlovakPrincess · April 17, 2018

On 4/16/2018 at 7:57 PM, Umbelina said:

I liked Tuan.

Anyway, Philip had just TOLD Paige that he was going out to get 'part of a' weapon that would help the Soviet Union retaliated against the USA, should the Soviet Union be decimated by our bombs. So, yeah, even idiot Paige should be able to put it together than her dad was running out to ensure the USA would be wiped out as well.

Her lack of feeling toward the country and culture she grew up in is kind of puzzling. I guess she didn’t grow up watching Red Dawn and Top Gun* like the rest of us 80s kids, lol.

Honestly, a huge part of the problem is rarely seeing Paige away from her parents. She just seems incapable of having her own ideas about things and never hangs out with young people.

Count me in as someone who found Tuan compelling.

* How could I forget Rocky IV?? LOL

Edited April 18, 2018 by SlovakPrincess

Umbelina · April 17, 2018

Even if she was to say "to hell with my country" it's VERY hard for me to think she wouldn't give a shit about her own life, or her brother's life, or a favorite teacher's life.

Her dad basically told her that if the USSR goes down via USA nukes, the USSR wanted to return the favor and wipe out the USA. His job that night was to ensure that the soviets could do great damage to the USA and it's people.

Umm, hello?

Nothing but a puzzled reaction and eyebrows of doom? No "WHAT THE FUCK DAD?" This is where I say, the actress is incapable of nuanced expressions or reactions, so the writers should have given her actually words to say there. In more skilled hands, perhaps we would understand what her reaction was supposed to be, but as it was in Holly's hands? Either the writers didn't want us to know, or Holly was incapable of it, because it was the same reaction she has to everything disturbing.

Edited April 17, 2018 by Umbelina

Ellaria · April 18, 2018

On 4/17/2018 at 12:30 AM, CaliCheeseSucks said:

My personal feeling has been if the show didn't do it all of the time, they could better get away with these suspensions of disbelief - precisely because they were limited in nature. My problem has been the show going to the suspension-of-disbelief well so many times - all the while maintaining its supposed to be at heart a domestic drama - that those missions have become laughable. I think it was in season four where the number of times we were expected to buy what Philip and Elizabeth were doing in a single twenty-four hour period - including wig and makeup changes, transportation time here to there and back, on top of pretending to run a travel agency - just became eye-rollingly, unintentionally hilarious. It worked if you bought that they never ever sleeped, got tired, or slipped up in any way. In other words, it worked as a cartoon.

I'd rather the showrunners had been honest and not puffed themselves up so much about their true goal, because really, this has been for some time now a cartoonish show about superspies. There's still hints of what could have been with the non-Jennings family members. But when reviewers and commenters alike began obsessing over music and wig reports? That's when I think the showrunners made the conscious decision to emphasize style (wigs, music, other fan service-friendly Easter Eggs) over substance (meaningful, believable plot developments).

I agree with much of this, especially the "style over substance" comment. And by substance, I mean meaningful character developments as well as plot developments. Couple that with the pacing problems of last season and we end up with, IMO, a lot of missed opportunities. The three year time jump became a necessity to get the plot to the current time in the show - nearing the summit - but it was poorly handled. I am left scratching my head about many things, primarily Paige's training (but that has already been analyzed and discussed in detail). Another example is Stan: he appears to be happily married but Renee is still making sketchy comments about FBI work. Perhaps time could have moved a bit faster last season by giving us less of the wheat project and by devoting more time to setting up the final arc of this story.

Finally, I have always found the amount of missions, wig changes, cover identities, etc that were crowded into a short time period to be hilarious as well. I realize that some don't agree - I was chastised in another thread for joking about it.

I don't know what the right answer is - I'm obviously not a screenwriter - but this show seems to be suffering from a lack of nuance right now.

Bannon · April 18, 2018

4 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I agree with much of this, especially the "style over substance" comment. And by substance, I mean meaningful character developments as well as plot developments. Couple that with the pacing problems of last season and we end up with, IMO, a lot of missed opportunities. The three year time jump became a necessity to get the plot to the current time in the show - nearing the summit - but it was poorly handled. I am left scratching my head about many things, primarily Paige's training (but that has already been analyzed and discussed in detail). Another example is Stan: he appears to be happily married but Renee is still making sketchy comments about FBI work. Perhaps time could have moved a bit faster last season by giving us less of the wheat project and by devoting more time to setting up the final arc of this story.

Finally, I have always found the amount of missions, wig changes, cover identities, etc that were crowded into a short time period to be hilarious as well. I realize that some don't agree - I was chastised in another thread for joking about it.

I don't know what the right answer is - I'm obviously not a screenwriter - but this show seems to be suffering from a lack of nuance right now.

I strongly believe that the show would have been better if it had not crammed in every season, prior to this one, into the years 1981-1984. I think spreading things out more, with fewer operations, would have been far superior. The Larrick arc, for instance, with a U.S. Special Ops soldier being compromised due to being gay, in the early 80s, was a great, great, premise that could have been much more extensively explored, at the expense of a lot of nonsense the writers threw at us.

I don't think these showrunners have done a good job.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Bannon

Ellaria · April 18, 2018

57 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I strongly believe that the show would have been better if it had not crammed in every season, prior to this one, into the years 1981-1984. I think spreading things out more, with fewer operations, would have been far superior. The Larrick arc, for instance, with a U.S. Special Ops soldier being compromised due to being gay, in the early 80s, was a great, great, premise that could have been much more extensively explored, at the expense of a lot of nonsense the writers through at us.

I don't think these showrunners have done a good job.

I think that the show runners did a good job early on. However, I think that they have done a "less than good job" in getting to the end of the story. If they truly did know their ending from the beginning, then we should not be having issues with pacing and economies of storytelling right now.

But I hesitate to fault them for two reasons:

We haven't reached the end yet. Perhaps it will all make sense or not be as bothersome as it is now.
Many shows have not "stuck the landing." In fact, more shows have failed at it than succeeded, IMO. Overall, The Americans is a superior to most in the recent age of quality TV.

Bannon · April 18, 2018

24 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I think that the show runners did a good job early on. However, I think that they have done a "less than good job" in getting to the end of the story. If they truly did know their ending from the beginning, then we should not be having issues with pacing and economies of storytelling right now.

But I hesitate to fault them for two reasons:

We haven't reached the end yet. Perhaps it will all make sense or not be as bothersome as it is now.

Many shows have not "stuck the landing." In fact, more shows have failed at it than succeeded, IMO. Overall, The Americans is a superior to most in the recent age of quality TV.

I admit my opinion of the showrunning is colored by my opinion that the premise of the show is one of the best ever in the history of television. I think Weisberg the showrunner has done a disservice to Weisberg the originator, and that has frustrated me since the season 1 finale.

I really think the bulk of the show up until this season could have been carried by the Martha arc, the Larrick arc, and the Young-hee arc, and the rest of the show should have been organized, and pared down, in service to those arcs, while spread out chronologically. I think the Larrick arc and Young-hee arc were much more rich in potential than what the writers produced, and that is kind of a shame.

If child spy recruitment was going to figure prominently in this story, and I certainly understand the attraction of the idea, then it should have been organized very differently.

SusanSunflower · April 18, 2018

I think the entire "Paige as mini-me" subplot (which was never compelling to me) really came to bleed off the momentum and tension of the first seasons.

IMHO, it is good to recognize that (given how primary Jared and that story line was at the beginning) this Apprentice Spy-Paige was ALWAYS a central part of the story for the showrunners, particularly when they say they ALWAYS knew how the series would end. (details still to be revealed).

IOW, I think the audience -- after all these seasons -- is supposed to be invested and interested in Paige's "journey". I think the "better show" many remember was a show with less Paige and other more interesting characters. (So, by this assessment, the showrunners "failings" are longstanding, even integral to their conception ... we just ignored the obvious (even as we questioned and complained about Paige)).

Like so many Merchant Ivory productions (and others), we were dazzled by the acting, and production values and cinematography etc. as we tolerated a central story-line and character development failing in how Paige was written going back to season 3 episode 1 (argueably before, season 2 episode 4 when "Kelly" brought Paige to Pastor Tim) .

eta: I'm reminded of "The Greatest Showman" which was panned by many critics for whitewashing Barnum's racism and worse, but became a word-of-mouth success with audiences because of the spectacle ... audiences didn't care about history, they wanted to be entertained, damn it, and as I recall being mentioned as double-plus by a "clean" family oriented movie.

Edited April 18, 2018 by SusanSunflower

Bannon · April 18, 2018

22 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

I think the entire "Paige as mini-me" subplot (which was never compelling to me) really came to bleed off the momentum and tension of the first seasons.

IMHO, it is good to recognize that (given how primary Jared and that story line was at the beginning) this Apprentice Spy-Paige was ALWAYS a central part of the story for the showrunners, particularly when they say they ALWAYS knew how the series would end. (details still to be revealed).

IOW, I think the audience -- after all these seasons -- is supposed to be invested and interested in Paige's "journey". I think the "better show" many remember was a show with less Paige and other more interesting characters. (So, by this assessment, the showrunners "failings" are longstanding, even integral to their conception ... we just ignored the obvious (even as we questioned and complained about Paige)).

Like so many Merchant Ivory productions (and others), we were dazzled by the acting, and production values and cinematography etc. as we tolerated a central story-line and character development failing in how Paige was written going back to season 3 episode 1 (argueably before, season 2 episode 4 when "Kelly" brought Paige to Pastor Tim) .

eta: I'm reminded of "The Greatest Showman" which was panned by many critics for whitewashing Barnum's racism and worse, but became a word-of-mouth success with audiences because of the spectacle ... audiences didn't care about history, they wanted to be entertained, damn it, and as I recall being mentioned as double-plus by a "clean" family oriented movie.

Yeah, if you want an audience to be progressively more heavily invested in a character over several seasons, then you need a story as well told as Martha's and as well acted as Allison Wright's Martha. Yes, that's a really tall order, especially the acting part, but that's what task requires. They missed the mark with The Paige Jennings Story, by a pretty wide margin.

sistermagpie · April 18, 2018

13 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I really think the bulk of the show up until this season could have been carried by the Martha arc, the Larrick arc, and the Young-hee arc, and the rest of the show should have been organized, and pared down, in service to those arcs, while spread out chronologically. I think the Larrick arc and Young-hee arc were much more rich in potential than what the writers produced, and that is kind of a shame.

4 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I agree with much of this, especially the "style over substance" comment. And by substance, I mean meaningful character developments as well as plot developments.

20 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

I think the entire "Paige as mini-me" subplot (which was never compelling to me) really came to bleed off the momentum and tension of the first seasons.

Part of the problem with so many of these missions is the hit similar notes over and over. There's too many murders, for one thing, that just pile up instead of focusing on longterm relationships with people we get to care about so we can really explore how they're being betrayed. This is especially clear in season 5 where the showrunners seemed to admit that nobody cares much about the people they're working in that season. There was no sense of Philip or Elizabeth feeling any attachment to the Morozovs, Ben or Deirdre. The only person they were really focused on was Paige.

The Martha arc is an obvious example of a spy arc that was dragged out and stronger for it. Philip was also always meant to have real sympathy for Kimmy and presumably not kill her. Young-Hee was practically the only relationship with a source Elizabeth ever had that she cared about, so that was useful. Philip's relationship with Charles Deluth was also pretty interesting imo. Larrick was a great character but I can also see why they thought he'd work best as a season long villain, as much as I'd have liked whatever they did with him. (Fred was also interesting as a season-long character.)

These things offered more interesting character stuff than the many many red shirts that got mowed down along the way. So many that it was just numbing or frankly comical, like Elizabeth's weary sigh before she killed the guy this week. They also tie better into a story about a second generation program because it's more central to the question of what they're doing. Not only are they encouraging Paige to live a half-life, they're manipulating her into a tool for other people just like Martha etc.

Of course I don't mind some fun missions also thrown in--a few James Bond escapes are fun. But if that's the main thrust of their job, it changes things. A focus on manipulation of sources also would have worked better with Paige, because she's totally unbelievable as a superhero like her parents. She's not believable as a person who genuinely believed like Gregory or Charles (two men who might have been recruited when they were Paige's age but probably came across as way more adult.) She *is* believable as another Annelise or Martha, partially participating in her own deception, but really a frog sitting in a slowly boiling plot who won't feel the heat until it's too late to hop out.

Umbelina · April 18, 2018

I'm trying to think of shows in the first four years than showed multiple spy operations in a 24 hour period and I'm failing. The only one I can think of is when the kid murdered his parents, and not only would it make complete sense for them to be awake and figuring things our for 24 hours straight? I'm pretty sure it covered more than one day's time.

Frequently they are shown in the morning making breakfast in the middle or taking the kids to school, or going to bed...time is passing. That, or bruising has healed, no more coverup has to be used, Henry turned in the science project he was working on for Friday, and got an A when it was graded and back, the following week, little stuff like that was inserted to most shows.

That said, real life spies have said it's feast or famine often in their lives, boring and nothing happening for weeks, then suddenly a 48+ hour period of tense, life on the line, and no sleep at all. It's not a 9-5 job, and working on no sleep and under stress is definitely a huge part of their training. Bob Baer commented that more potential spies washed out during that those "training sessions" than during anything else.

They were not TOLD, "let's see how you do scared to death and without sleep for days" but that was exactly the point of things like being dropped into the middle of a dangerous swamp with almost no supplies and told to accomplish some BS mission and then find your way out. Lots of stuff to kill you in there, and other ways to die as well, such as quicksand, as well as being soaking wet with no chance to sleep, mud-caked, insects of all sizes swarming and biting you, leeches, fear, etc. When they got back after 3-5 days, IF they did, some needed rescue because they couldn't find a way out, they were told to write detailed operations reports about every single thing that happened. This was without being offered a shower, sleep, or food. After hours of doing that, separate from others, their reports were all thrown in the trash as useless, they were berated and told to do it again. That would happen a few times.

Bob Baer said he caught on pretty quickly that this was ALL about stress, and how you help up, so soldiered on, not getting upset about his reports being trashed, or himself being berated as incompetent and stupid. MANY others cracked and were out right then.

So yeah, long hours and multiple missions in s short time frame would be something the KGB certainly would have trained and screened them for. I just can't remember any specific episodes when that happened?

Edited April 18, 2018 by Umbelina

SusanSunflower · April 18, 2018

We really haven't even seen Paige dealing with the normal "multi-tasking" (stressful as it may be) for normal young college students with some social life and other obligations (in this case being available to her mother as needed/demanded). We haven't even seen Paige say, I can't be there because I have a test (or a class) or some other commitment. Part of what I always liked about Kimmie and Kelly (the girl on the bus) was that they were both brimming with curiosity and adventure and the energy that generates. Paige has been shown consistently fairly passive and solitary ... and critically, with the Naval Security Officer, off in her little secure bubble in which being "off duty" and "hadn't started my shift" is somehow an explanation.

I hope tonight ties up or at least references some of the loose ends... I've been toying with a theory that Elizabeth's "assasination plot" is -- in fact -- activated, detected and quickly decimated, leaving the survivors (probably not E) and collaterals (likely to include an unwitting Paige) struggling to reunite and find safety while the KGB's job #1 is erasing any evidence that such a plot could/would be possible, particularly concealing from Gorbachev.

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