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PODCAST S02.E16 Go Pirates!: The Old College Troy

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re: Wallace, I don't know why they had him fall back on a basket ball scholarship when he's a minority interested in Mechanical Engineering. There definitely would have been scholarships available.

re: Troy, I'm now imagining a season 3 where they didn't bother with Piz (I like Chris Lowell, I really do, but meh) and instead used Troy as Veronica's alternate love interest. Aaron Ashmore was just so charming and had great chemistry with both Kristen Bell and Percy Daggs.

re: Hannah, it's probably my Logan/Veronica preference showing, but while I never disliked Hannah, I never bought Logan's "I will defy everything to be with you" turn in this episode. He was obviously conflicted over playing her, and she was a nice girl who didn't deserve it, but before this episode, I thought most of his conflict was over being a garbage person, and not because he actually loved her.

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That's an interesting point (and backed by the way Dohring tends to play these moments). I would say he does genuinely like her and does genuinely feel remorse for setting this situation up, but I also think you're right that he's just as concerned with what it says about him.

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Logan is totally alone in the world. His best friend, possibly his only intimate friend (not in a sexual sense) didn't trust him enough to tell him he got a girl pregnant and was leaving town with the baby and didn't care enough to leave him a note to read later. I mean, not only that...Veronica and Duncan played him. Pretty sure he would grab onto and try to hold anyone who hugged him and validated him.  I would also gently suggest that this is true for Lilly and Veronica as well. Logan has been totally alone for a long time. Logan is a very needy person without a good measuring stick for love. His examples are Lynn, Aaron and Trina? 

Let's see. Logan tells Veronica that her father is wrong to accuse Jake. She supports her father. Later, when she finds out her father was wrong she understands and still supports and helps find the real killer. Later he, Logan, does suspicious things and she suspects him of planning to bully her (again) and of being more complicit in her rape than he actually was (which is some). In the 'lamp' incident Veronica does not stand up for him to her father. Veronica, who has been drugged and raped, is suspicious and a little uncomfortable about sex. Several actions of his, such as burning down the pool, have made an impression on Veronica and she doesn't think he is perfect.  Also we see Logan verbally abusing Veronica, Trina and Kendall this season. They are all slightly older than him.  

Hannah has a face he metaphorically doesn't want to punch (movie reference), I suspect because she is slightly younger than him and he feels protective. When he tells her about her father she sleuths (like Veronica) and finds out Logan is correct and supports Logan against her father. She stands up to her mother and father about Logan. She is direct and honest about her desire to have sex with Logan and tells him he is wonderful. 

Hannah, unlike Veronica, is not the person Logan thinks he wants but she is the person he needs. She also gets sent off to boarding school quickly so we and Logan never learn her flaws and/or Logan doesn't get frightened she will leave and push her away. 

I agree that Logan doesn't love her, but I don't think he is really going to love anyone right now. I think she is kind of a revelation to him. Not sure anyone has ever actually believed in him in life. It also may be one of the first times he really feels like a jerk for using someone. 

Edited by Affogato

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I too have problems keeping track of Veronica Mars episodes. I'm better with the third season because most of the cases are connected to Veronica's state or mind, journey so you can place them in order. Sorority den mother comes before pseudo PETA guys episode, because the experience in the first informs the decision Veronica makes in the second. (how's that for talking without actually saying anything spoilery). 

On the other hand, go over to Riverdale. This season episodes named after movies, action in the episode reflect the movie in some way, characters act a little different depending on the movie, but each episode refers to the arc of the season and you could easily grade how the episode served the arc and the ships. Easy to remember those episodes.  Of course on the forums no one is particularly pleased with the lovely conceit. Can't win, I guess. 

I think it is because Veronica has a non episodic structure. Has arcs, mind you. Just the divisions are arbitrary and the structure is the 'hero's journey'. In VM all seasons it starts before the actual season. Lilly is killed. Veronica is thrown into a strange world. She rejects it and tries to reclaim the old one by going to the party and horrible things happen. She finds Lamb, her mentor, who tells her to get a backbone. She gets a backbone. When she does she gets the help of her spirit guide, Lilly's ghost. And so it goes. Second season the refrigerator thing sends her into a world where her father almost dies. MI is closed, she gets a job as a barista and when he returns and wants her to be normal she agrees.  Delays thinking about bus crash because subconsciously is afraid that she will find out someone did it to kill her and so doesn't pick up on clues about the person that caused it. That leads to what happens at the end and the rejection of her path out of Neptune. Third season yet to come. 

I can't remember exactly what happens in any one of the episodes the minute I stop watching it. The divisions seem pretty arbitrary to me. They all are a blur.

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9 hours ago, Affogato said:

I think it is because Veronica has a non episodic structure. Has arcs, mind you. Just the divisions are arbitrary and the structure is the 'hero's journey'. In VM all seasons it starts before the actual season. Lilly is killed. Veronica is thrown into a strange world. She rejects it and tries to reclaim the old one by going to the party and horrible things happen. She finds Lamb, her mentor, who tells her to get a backbone. She gets a backbone. When she does she gets the help of her spirit guide, Lilly's ghost. And so it goes. Second season the refrigerator thing sends her into a world where her father almost dies. MI is closed, she gets a job as a barista and when he returns and wants her to be normal she agrees.  Delays thinking about bus crash because subconsciously is afraid that she will find out someone did it to kill her and so doesn't pick up on clues about the person that caused it. That leads to what happens at the end and the rejection of her path out of Neptune. Third season yet to come.

In what universe is Lamb her mentor?!

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57 minutes ago, secnarf said:

In what universe is Lamb her mentor?!

https://www.thoughtco.com/heros-journey-meeting-with-the-mentor-31349

 go see the wizard!

This article discusses the wizard of oz so it is appropriate.

Thomas uses the mentor in an unexpected way and he remains  an unappreciated help through high school.

Lamb always respects her and takes her seriously. He helps her in the Manning house. He scoffs but follows up on her lead about the C-4. He isn’t her friend but he makes her stronger by providing resistance. 

Think that if she had gone to her dad he would have taken care of it. She would have gone to another school. Moved to another town.  Sure sometimes Keith is her mentor but he is also, like parents often are, an antagonist, too. She is Challenged to become fully herself and he wants her to have a normal childhood. Logan who wants to protect little small her is often an antagonist, too. They may like her but they aren’t ... um ... helping.

lamb tells her what she needs to hear. When we learn he was abused himself it makes a kind of sense  he speaks with the wisdom of experience. She has to learn to help herself.

Ok make sense? It is harsh but this is noir. 

Edited by Affogato

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17 minutes ago, Affogato said:

https://www.thoughtco.com/heros-journey-meeting-with-the-mentor-31349

 go see the wizard!

This article discusses the wizard of oz so it is appropriate.

Thomas uses the mentor in an unexpected way and he remains  an unappreciated help through high school.

Lamb always respects her and takes her seriously. He helps her in the Manning house. He scoffs but follows up on her lead about the C-4. He isn’t her friend but he makes her stronger by providing resistance. 

 

I couldn't disagree more with this. IMO he is the furthest thing from a mentor, and calling him one is an insult to anyone I've ever thought of as a real mentor.

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For some reason the clips in this were off. Some started to play while the hosts were talking, while others were just silence, which was unnerving when the hosts then came back laughing.

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Disappointing the way Logan's murder case just fizzles. I think he did feel bad about the way he treated Hannah, though I don't think it was "Twu Wuv". I had assumed Cliff used his toe to dial reception, but I guess he could have used other... appendages (in which case, he's very flexible).

On the rape issue - I think (IMO) that it's better addressed than not. I was very struck only yesterday by the difference in attitude between me and my father on seeing a policeman in church: he said "I hope the police aren't going after another one of the priests" as opposed to my thought, "I hope another boy hasn't been assaulted" (and our former Abbot was tried and convicted earlier this year, so it's not as if this is purely based on "media stories" around the Catholic church). So long as there is an instinctive response to blame (or at least, disbelieve) the victim, whatever can be done to shift opinion is good, I think. But JMO.

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