Moral, Legal and Political Ramifications of the iZombieverse

[Chicago Redshirt]

With the zombie takeover of New Seattle, there are a lot of potentially interesting discussions about what that means.

Are zombies "people" in a legal sense?

Would zombie visions be admissible evidence?

Why would the U.S. government work with Fillmore Graves?

Some of these and other discussions have started in some of the episode threads. 

But it seemed like it would be better to assign them their own topic. So here it is!

[Affogato]

It seems to me that Fillmore Graves already did business with the government on several fronts. That it is possible, we might be lead to believe, that if the government had a similar issue in Tucson they might have called in Fillmore Graves, zombies or not. 

[Affogato]

I ont think we’ve seen an attempt to use a vision as evidence. Yet. Liv’s visions have lead them to find evidence or elicit confessions. However if you saved a portion of the brains you might be able to replicate visions. Zombie juries. Blue treated brains?

Zombies do have blood pressure and slow heart rates and may not be legally dead. However all of them have eaten people. Legally shaky ground. It has to come up. Normal and zombie divorce settlement. Your honor, my husband is a zombie. As his widow I get the house and car. 

Edited March 8, 2018 by Affogato

[Mr. Sparkle]

Interesting point about the zombie juries or zombie judges. If everyone sees the same vision, it carries a lot more credence than one person's testimony. Otherwise, it's just like another witness - it comes down to how credible they are. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

Up to this season, Clive and Liv have not (as far as we've been shown) relied on Liv's zombie visions as themselves evidence, because they were keeping on the down low that Liv was a zombie and that zombies do get visions, etc.

Now that zombie-ism is out, I would think that there would be no reason to hide that zombies get visions, and that it could be demonstrated that they are valid. Unlike psychics, it is something that could be at least somewhat demonstrated. The one issue is that it would take a while to figure out what might trigger a vision. But presumably, multiple zombies would be triggered by the same stimuli. We saw this when Blaine, Don-E and Liv all had a vision simultaneously. ("Whoa! A three-way"). So in contrast to real-world "psychics," there would be some level of objective proof of the phenomena.

[Affogato]

12 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Up to this season, Clive and Liv have not (as far as we've been shown) relied on Liv's zombie visions as themselves evidence, because they were keeping on the down low that Liv was a zombie and that zombies do get visions, etc.

Now that zombie-ism is out, I would think that there would be no reason to hide that zombies get visions, and that it could be demonstrated that they are valid. Unlike psychics, it is something that could be at least somewhat demonstrated. The one issue is that it would take a while to figure out what might trigger a vision. But presumably, multiple zombies would be triggered by the same stimuli. We saw this when Blaine, Don-E and Liv all had a vision simultaneously. ("Whoa! A three-way"). So in contrast to real-world "psychics," there would be some level of objective proof of the phenomena.

there is no objective proof of psychic phenomenon. One right hunch does not outweigh a hundred wrong hunches.

Zombie visions would be verifiable, though, we did see them ha e the same vision together. On the other hand why would a bunch of non zombies believe this? Four months isn’t long and information about zombies would be thin on the ground. 

[questionfear]

I would guess a zombie vision alone isn't admissible BUT i could see it being used as grounds for a warrant-so if the vision leads to further investigation that proves the vision right, that's ok. 

[Thrifty]

Someone pointed out in one of the other threads that it was already mentioned in the season premiere that the visions aren't admissible.  When they were trying to arrest the victim's son, he mentioned that.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 3/8/2018 at 7:01 AM, Affogato said:

there is no objective proof of psychic phenomenon. One right hunch does not outweigh a hundred wrong hunches.

Zombie visions would be verifiable, though, we did see them ha e the same vision together. On the other hand why would a bunch of non zombies believe this? Four months isn’t long and information about zombies would be thin on the ground. 

We're saying the same thing about psychic phenomenon in the real world. There is no scientific evidence that has ever confirmed it.

In the iZombieverse, there are (presumably) some level of non-zombies beyond Clive and the rest of Our Heroes who can attest to knowing zombies that have had visions. One could do an anthropological field trip to places like the Scratching Post and observe zombies on brains pick up skills, act in ways and have memories that are not their own. One could interview zombies and get evidence that it is common place to experience memories of the brains you're on if exposed to the right stimuli. One could design and conduct experiments to confirm these sorts of claims. 

Admittedly, four months into zombies being public knowledge may be a little short, and there may be dozens of higher-priorities out there. But it's something I would think they'd look into.

[Affogato]

15 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

 

Admittedly, four months into zombies being public knowledge may be a little short, and there may be dozens of higher-priorities out there. But it's something I would think they'd look into.

We are not given much information about.how the rest of the world is reacting. 

I imagine one of the reasons for the shutdown on  the uninfected is to control information but that would imply that there is a lockdown on internet and phones. If not a dying child would be totally a lead story. Why wouldn’t f-g broker these issues, trading them for good will? They need some. 

 There would be podcasts from the antizombie groups and probably pro zombie as well. The religious parade would be broadcast immediately. Everyone would have pictures. We live in an age where people can’t experience it if they can’t put it on Facebook. People have families who would want to get supplies to them. Grandma would be dying in Vermont. Husband, a zombie stuck in Seattle after being turned while vaccinated at a confeeence wants to see his wife and new born daughter. Human interest.

You know the Supreme Court will at some point end up with zombie cases, deciding if zombie visions are admissible. Congress will legislate. But it is still too early. 

And there is a lot we don’t have. A zombie stuck in o’hare When the lockdownn started. Runs amuck through terminal. Romero outbreak hastened by stress. Zombie reveals self and saves school by tackling shooter. Half secret service secretly zombies! 

We need an episode about what the country thinks of all this. 

Edited March 10, 2018 by Affogato

[Thrifty]

I feel like the writers are completely forgetting their premise, and the show is depressing me.  A plague is running loose in a major American city following a bioterrorist attack.  The US government and the World Health Organization do not seem to be making any effort to create a cure, or retake the city from the terrorists who have conquered it.  I know it was discussed on this forum that the military trained zombies have an advantage over the humans in the U.S. military, but that's no excuse.  The military doesn't just chicken out because things are tough.  Especially when the threat is on our own soil.

[Paloma]

On 3/10/2018 at 6:38 AM, Affogato said:

We are not given much information about.how the rest of the world is reacting. 

I imagine one of the reasons for the shutdown on  the uninfected is to control information but that would imply that there is a lockdown on internet and phones. If not a dying child would be totally a lead story. Why wouldn’t f-g broker these issues, trading them for good will? They need some. 

 There would be podcasts from the antizombie groups and probably pro zombie as well. The religious parade would be broadcast immediately. Everyone would have pictures. We live in an age where people can’t experience it if they can’t put it on Facebook. People have families who would want to get supplies to them. Grandma would be dying in Vermont. Husband, a zombie stuck in Seattle after being turned while vaccinated at a confeeence wants to see his wife and new born daughter. Human interest.

You know the Supreme Court will at some point end up with zombie cases, deciding if zombie visions are admissible. Congress will legislate. But it is still too early. 

And there is a lot we don’t have. A zombie stuck in o’hare When the lockdownn started. Runs amuck through terminal. Romero outbreak hastened by stress. Zombie reveals self and saves school by tackling shooter. Half secret service secretly zombies! 

We need an episode about what the country thinks of all this. 

I agree that we need more connection to the outside world in the storylines. They wouldn't have to do an episode taking place exclusively outside of Seattle, but they could explore how the attitudes and actions outside Seattle are affecting those inside--especially the remaining humans. For that matter, they could explore the human interest stories of families within Seattle who have one or more members infected but the rest still human (yoo-hoo, writers, what happened to Liv's family?)--they've touched on the idea of infected children being abandoned, but I'd like to see the moral conflict playing out between family members. Of course, this would make the show more drama than comedy, so it would be hard to integrate the tones.

45 minutes ago, Thrifty said:

The US government and the World Health Organization do not seem to be making any effort to create a cure, or retake the city from the terrorists who have conquered it.  I know it was discussed on this forum that the military trained zombies have an advantage over the humans in the U.S. military, but that's no excuse.  The military doesn't just chicken out because things are tough.  Especially when the threat is on our own soil.

I don't think we know that the government and WHO are not making any effort to create a cure or retake the city. Given the unprecedented nature of the situation, it may be taking a long time to find a cure and to plan a way to retake the city (and any such plan would be kept secret). But I'm not sure the military would want to retake the city, and not because they are chickening out. Until a cure is found, what would they do with the zombies if they retook the city? They might want to kill them but it is not easy to tell in most cases who is zombie and who is human, if the zombies are using hair dye and makeup. It's already been said (by Chase?) that having humans in Seattle is the only thing keeping the government from dropping a bomb on them. The government and military may figure that it is better to wall off the threat--keep them in one place, like a refugee camp--until they figure out a more comprehensive solution. 

[Thrifty]

58 minutes ago, Paloma said:

I don't think we know that the government and WHO are not making any effort to create a cure or retake the city. Given the unprecedented nature of the situation, it may be taking a long time to find a cure and to plan a way to retake the city (and any such plan would be kept secret). But I'm not sure the military would want to retake the city, and not because they are chickening out. Until a cure is found, what would they do with the zombies if they retook the city? They might want to kill them but it is not easy to tell in most cases who is zombie and who is human, if the zombies are using hair dye and makeup. It's already been said (by Chase?) that having humans in Seattle is the only thing keeping the government from dropping a bomb on them. The government and military may figure that it is better to wall off the threat--keep them in one place, like a refugee camp--until they figure out a more comprehensive solution. 

It's a decent point, but I just cannot let go of this fact that terrorists took over an American city and the government is just letting it happen.  I should probably relax, since it's just a TV show, but I can't do that any more than the writers can make Liv behave like a normal person.

[Chicago Redshirt]

The thing is, I'm not sure what more the government could do in terms of dealing with the bioterrorism, or at least, that the show's status quo isn't the least bad of the various potential solutions, which as I see it are:

1. Quarantine - what we're seeing. You can quibble as to whether the army should be running the quarantine in its entirety or if it should be like what we are seeing,with FG responsible for the situation within Seattle and the Army responsible outside.

2. Nuke (or otherwise destroy) Seattle - doesn't seem like a viable solution when a) zombies act essentially human when well-fed and b) there are presumably hundreds of thousands, of normal humans who would be an unacceptable level of collateral damage.

3. Pursue criminal or civil cases against FG's leaders who were involved or FG itself. Bringing some sort of sense of justice to bear would have upsides, sure. Doing so wouldn't really address the notion of their being 10k zombies within Seattle, though.

One thing that I'm convinced would happen if Izombieverse zombies were real is that the U.S. would work some deal to get FG zombies to serve in the world's hot spots. I could see some sort of quid pro quo where FG provides zombie troops in exchange for brains/control of Seattle/etc.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Responding to a few things from other threads:

I think that using the word "zombie" taints the perception of the situation, which is that there is a virus which is creating a set of symptoms in populations exposed through blood or body fluid exchange.

Would we recommend "nuking" San Francisco of NYC because many people there contracted HiV in the 1980s? Should families abandon their loved ones if they contract the virus?

Almost all the zombies were infected against their will. A harsh response is beyond unkind. It strikes me as downright immoral.

Whatever term you might want to apply to the disease in iZombie,  it has the potential to spiral out of control in ways that HIV couldn't. First, it is way easier to spread. HIV can be blocked by use of condoms, abstinence, not sharing needles or cleaning them with bleach; and procedures to limit what sorts of blood is available for transfer. One can't limit one's exposure to the zombie virus as easily. A random scratch by someone infected will turn you. And with as large a zombie population as there is in New Seattle, there's a good chance of having that random scratch. Zombies can go into rage mode over relatively minor slights -- insulting the football team of the person whose brain they are on or taking their helmet are a couple example's we've seen this season.  Which brings up the second way the zombie virus is way different: it turns its recipients into a real threat. They need, as far as we have seen, human brains to continue on. There is a risk that their hunger for brains will turn them homicidal or leave them desperate. 

So nuking SF or NYC in the 80s isn't something we would do because the severity of AIDS wouldn't warrant it. But similarly, we wouldn't reasonably quarantine neighborhoods in those cities that because HIV didn't warrant that either.

At some point, I think that a mass population of zombies poses a threat that changes the moral calculus. 10,000 zombies for (say) 300,000 humans is one things. If it were the reverse, that's something very different. 

Sorry about your mother. 

Not everyone has the resources to pick up quickly and relocate. Some would need to liquidate. Some are living hand to mouth.Some may have seen opportunity at first and some may have sen it in illegal activities  in retrospect many may think as the teeth close on their brain stems that they should have stuffed  n extra pair of socks in their pocket and scampered  

We may find that people abandoned their zombie six year olds , decisively, at the first announcement and got out. But also people who, having stayed, now are trapped by how much the kids still need them even as they realize their situation is untenable.

Thanks.

I think, perhaps incorrectly, that on hearing that zombies are real and a bunch of people in my area had been turned into them, AND the government was building a wall to keep me in with them, I would drop everything that instant. I'd beg, borrow or steal to get the things needed to get out of Dodge. Getting out with basically nothing but the clothes on my back would be better than most of the realistic possibilities in New Seattle.

Like you said, some might think, "Hey this is cool" or look to profit from the situation. But I'm doubtful that there wouldn't be way more as fearful as me and as eager to GTFO from the start.

[biakbiak]

It should be noted that during the mid80s many did want to quarantine AIDS patients, including a majority of Americans.

[Chicago Redshirt]

As sickening as that is 30 years later, I'd make a distinction between quarantining AIDS patients and quarantining neighborhoods where there might be higher than normal populations of AIDS patients and HIV-positive people. The latter is akin to the situation in the show, where people who don't pose any present public health risk would get swept up with the quarantine.

[AllyB]

There is also the fact that zombies have been secretly around for years at this point. Seattle might be zombie ground zero but there would be zombies all over the world. There may even be cities with a zombie who followed Blaine's plan of infecting a bunch of rich people to extort for brains. People like Osborn Oates (the man who "owned" Natalie) may have gotten out of Seattle and made themselves zombie lackeys in order to have power over them. He almost certainly created a Natalie replacement. The world would be full of secret zombies and pretty much everyone on earth would have figured that out by now.

[Affogato]

On 3/15/2018 at 9:28 PM, AllyB said:

There is also the fact that zombies have been secretly around for years at this point. Seattle might be zombie ground zero but there would be zombies all over the world. There may even be cities with a zombie who followed Blaine's plan of infecting a bunch of rich people to extort for brains. People like Osborn Oates (the man who "owned" Natalie) may have gotten out of Seattle and made themselves zombie lackeys in order to have power over them. He almost certainly created a Natalie replacement. The world would be full of secret zombies and pretty much everyone on earth would have figured that out by now.

Chase’s group are mercs and probably the whole army didn’t return with him. In war zones a small group could find brains and cover evidence. Also Fillmore graves would be an international company. Aside from the mercs they would have zombies in their international offices. 

[Ray Adverb]

Why do the zombie thugs at Fillmore Graves wear bulletproof vests anyway?  They're already bullet resistant.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 3/23/2018 at 12:28 PM, RayAdverb said:

Why do the zombie thugs at Fillmore Graves wear bulletproof vests anyway?  They're already bullet resistant.

Why take hits you don't have to? 

A bigger question is why they don't wear way better helmets? The reason of course is because it's TV and they want us to be able to see Major, Captain Seattle and Jordan's faces. But within the universe of the show, they really should spare no expense to keep their heads protected.

[Ray Adverb]

I would like to see Liv eat the brains of a New Zealander or Australian person.  It would interest me to hear Rose McIver talk in her real voice for an episode.  I am constantly amazed by how well Australian actors can mask their accents while performing.

[Chicago Redshirt]

I think that at some point there was a bit where Liv was about to go undercover, and she and Ravi tried on accents, and Rose used her actual accented voice.

[Ray Adverb]

Why do zombies have such unusually sharp fingernails?  Does the zombie disease cause them to somehow grow claws?  Zombies seem to be able to give infectious scratches with the same ease you would draw a line on a piece of paper.  But you try giving yourself a skin penetrating scratch.  It's tough.  All the scratches I have come from my cats and their razor sharp claws.

[Affogato]

4 hours ago, RayAdverb said:

Why do zombies have such unusually sharp fingernails?  Does the zombie disease cause them to somehow grow claws?  Zombies seem to be able to give infectious scratches with the same ease you would draw a line on a piece of paper.  But you try giving yourself a skin penetrating scratch.  It's tough.  All the scratches I have come from my cats and their razor sharp claws.

I figure it is like the biting into a crisp apple sound vampires make. Very wtf.  In reality it would make them very dangerous. A store clerk handing someone a wrapped package could easily infect them by accident. 

[Affogato]

So here’s something disturbing. I rewatched a few episodes. Katty Kupps keeps on talking about brains in the digestive tract and how the flesh was dead longer than expected. 

So fast decomposition? Or dead and reanimated? How do Blaine and Major go back and forth?

[questionfear]

On 3/31/2018 at 7:38 AM, Affogato said:

So here’s something disturbing. I rewatched a few episodes. Katty Kupps keeps on talking about brains in the digestive tract and how the flesh was dead longer than expected. 

So fast decomposition? Or dead and reanimated? How do Blaine and Major go back and forth?

Maybe once the brain or whatever is animating the zombies is finally killed, decomposition moves faster.

[Chicago Redshirt]

No government on earth would give anyone the choice. Once the cure is replicated zombie-ism is over. The disease is highly contagious and the worst consequences are raging hordes of murderous zombies while the best overall outcome is potential immortality for everyone on earth, in a way that we as a species can't yet support. Zombies would be given the cure willingly or unwillingly. Liv's crusade is nothing short of stupid.

I think, in particular with the type of zombies in iZombie where for they are essentially like normal people who happen to eat brains and thus can control themselves if well-fed, there would be at least some thought given to zombie rights. 

I also think it far more likely that governments would want to harness the power of zombies rather than eliminate them. A bunch of soldiers who are invulnerable to all but headshots, who have greater stamina, strength and speed than humans? No government would want to eliminate that completely.

[Affogato]

 Skills learned by eating brains are lost when the brain wears off. Kung fu. Hockey. Knitting. 

Still, wouldn’t something remain? If eating someone’s brain allows me to find the upstairs bathroom in his mansion wouldn’t I still remember where the bathroom was when the brain wears off? The positions in hockey? 

[CherithCutestory]

On 3/31/2018 at 7:38 AM, Affogato said:

So here’s something disturbing. I rewatched a few episodes. Katty Kupps keeps on talking about brains in the digestive tract and how the flesh was dead longer than expected. 

This drove me insane. They really can't decide if zombies are literally dead or just suffering from a virus. The latter can be cured. The former can not. But if they are just suffering from a virus their bodies shouldn't decompose at all.

[Chicago Redshirt]

^the virus could cause decomposition, or a condition that someone without the zombie frame of reference might mistake for decomposition. Or the virus could stave off decomposition to the point where when it is no longer active a 100 percent dead zombie would look like it was dead for longer. 

Edited June 14, 2018 by Chicago Redshirt

[Affogato]

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

^the virus could cause decomposition, or a condition that someone without the zombie frame of reference might mistake for decomposition. Or the virus could stave off decomposition to the point where when it is no longer active a 100 percent dead zombie would look like it was dead for longer. 

A wolverine level healing factor might combat natural decomposition. 

 

When zombie actually dies no more healing factor and decomposition speeds up or the partial decomposition that is always there being healed gives the corpse a head start. 

 

Healing factor might explain sirviving ice crystals from bad freezing and thawing. 

[Affogato]

I watched Daybreakers the other day. I’d seen it before and I can’t say I learned anything  new watching it twice. It isn’t profound. However it is a pretty thoroughly realized picture of what walled Seattle would look like in a short amount of time and the world somewhat later. 

 

Spoilers for movie

Spoiler

It is vampires, not zombies. You see them trying and spectacularly failing at making artificial blood. One character had a fatal disease before the vampiRe virus. One was turned against his will and remains against it. The solution/ending could work in the zombie setting