Season Four: Goren and Eames...And Hi, Mike Logan!

[WendyCR72]

I saw on the online TV Guide that "In The Dark" was on in the early morning hours yesterday, and I finally saw that the name of the actress playing the woman who had that stone baby was Rutanya Alda per the description. So I was wondering if she was at all related to Alan Alda (she isn't).

 

But I was surprised to read she was born in Latvia and spent part of her childhood in a post-WWII displacement camp. Wow.

 

Sounds like her life was just as interesting as some of the roles she has had.

[Maherjunkie]

Did she play the assistant in "Mommie Dearest"?

[WendyCR72]

Did she play the assistant in "Mommie Dearest"?

 

Was the assistant named Carole Ann? Because she is indeed on the cast list per IMDB. And another incidental finding: An actress named Mara Hobel per the list played child Christina. Mara Hobel went on to play April Callaway in the CI episode "Esophoros", the granddaughter who orchestrated the kidnapping of herself and her Atheist grandmother.

[Maherjunkie]

Yes and yes!

[Donny Ketchum]

If there's any victim I'd ever thought deserved the lion's share of the sympathy, it was Rachel from "The Good Child."  To know her adoptive parents were murdered by her biological parents just so she'd inherit their money, and then knowing her birth parents were setting her up to be killed just so they could take her money, and then knowing her scumbag birth father was planning on offing her birth mother along with her just so he could have all of the money to himself?  I felt all kinds of awful for her.

[WendyCR72]

If there's any victim I'd ever thought deserved the lion's share of the sympathy, it was Rachel from "The Good Child."  To know her adoptive parents were murdered by her biological parents just so she'd inherit their money, and then knowing her birth parents were setting her up to be killed just so they could take her money, and then knowing her scumbag birth father was planning on offing her birth mother along with her just so he could have all of the money to himself?  I felt all kinds of awful for her.

 

Oh, yeah. That episode was "special". I was sort of skeeved out at how the show tried to throw the curve ball of her bio father being suspected as a much older boyfriend, at first, but hey. Both of those bio parents were quite the piece of work. I also thought the bio mom was psycho in a way for being jealous, thinking that her pig of a lover looked at their daughter sexually, etc. I vividly recall him screaming at the mom for stealing an egg cup. LOL!

 

Rachel had a lucky escape.

 

John Shea seemed to play his share of douchebags. He was also in the S7 episode, "Legacy", the episode at that fancy prep school where the victim was hanged, and the students were trying to drive out the art teacher by terrorizing her daughter. He played the father of the entitled scummy little perp.

[Spartan Girl]

Let's not forget he was also Lex Luthor in the Lois and Clark TV show...

[Maherjunkie]

And the conniver who uses Samantha in Sex and the City.

[WendyCR72]

And the conniver who uses Samantha in Sex and the City.

 

Don't recall his SATC stint. Do you recall what season or episode?

 

Either way, between CI, L&C, and so on, I guess Shea has made typecasting profitable. But I guess the same can be said for many an actor, right?

[WendyCR72]

It's the episode "Evolution" in season two - aka, the one also featuring Dan Futterman as the "gay straight man (this was pre-use of the "metrosexual" moniker").

 

Oh, okay. I remember that episode - just not John Shea. Heh.

 

Oh well, as I said, at least being a "bad guy" has worked for him throughout his career!

[Eolivet]

Clearly I was the only one who saw John Shea as the prosecutor in one of those terrible made-for-TV movies, "Small Sacrifices" (about a mother who killed her children) back circa...1997 or so. He was very sympathetic and awesome in that movie. Only time I've ever seen him play a good guy.

 

I remember thinking (but never posting) that "The Good Child" reminded me of a twisted version of (the musical) Annie, with John Shea as Rooster and his girlfriend as Lily. Grifters/con artists using a kid for her money.

 

And "EGGCUP!" was classic CI, and really well set-up, too.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Eolivet

[WendyCR72]

On the big screen: I hope I'm not the only one who remembers Shea's very small role as Jack Lemmon's doomed son in Costa-Gavras' Missing!

 

<Hangs head> I've never heard of that. But thanks for the heads up!

 

Clearly I was the only one who saw John Shea as the prosecutor in one of those terrible made-for-TV movies, "Small Sacrifices" (about a mother who killed her children) back circa...1997 or so. He was very sympathetic and awesome in that movie. Only time I've ever seen him play a good guy.

 

Now I have heard of Small Sacrifices (and the real case, which is all sorts of warped and sad) but I never actually watched the movie, although I know Farrah Fawcett was also in that, right? At least John Shea could play a decent guy then. Good to know!

 

I remember thinking (but never posting) that "The Good Child" reminded me of a twisted version of (the musical) Annie, with John Shea as Rooster and his girlfriend as Lily. Grifters/con artists using a kid for her money.

 

I have seen the movie version (the 1982 version) and I had never made the connection. I'll never watch "The Good Child" the same way ever again.  :-)

[WendyCR72]

Huh! Thanks for the clip, @Chattygal! It's good to know that John Shea does have some good guys in his acting repertoire! And Mr. Lemmon and Ms.Spacek were/are no slouches as actors, so there's that, too.  :-)

[roseha]

I'm going to jump in here, because Season Four is my favorite.  I really think that this is when CI hit its special height of psychological strangeness that really set it apart from the rest of the franchise (or am I stating the obvious?).   My very favorite is No Exit, in fact that's my favorite CI episode ever.  Nearly every single character that Goren and Eames encounter is guilty of something, all stemming from the suicide of the Edie, whom we never meet.  Her boss is guilty of sexually harassing her and covering it up, and expecting his underlings to do so; Carmine refuses to tell the truth and is placed on the suicide train by Skoller, who is externalizing his own overwhelming guilt over the same matter, which G and E find expressed on the website.  I've never seen any other show where guilt and its expression are just everywhere, brilliantly summed up in the little scene where Skoller walks away from his computer as all his family photos are being deleted.  Even Edie's father makes a statement, standing in the rain, that Goren seems to think he had something to do with his daughter's death.  It's as if the ramifications are everywhere like a ripple effect.  It's also great to see Carver so involved in the story; I really missed him when CI went on without him.

Also, I have to put in a word for The Posthumous Collection, obviously it's a very creepy storyline to say the least (though relieved with some humor, as in the scene where Eames pretends to be a lonely innocent to interest the perp while he's doing portraits, and Goren barges in to annoy him before they show their badges) but ultimately, this is one of few episodes I can think of where we not only get to meet the victim but really get the sense of who he was, which makes Goren's last line about the photographs so sad.

[WendyCR72]

My very favorite is No Exit, in fact that's my favorite CI episode ever.  Nearly every single character that Goren and Eames encounter is guilty of something, all stemming from the suicide of the Edie, whom we never meet.  Her boss is guilty of sexually harassing her and covering it up, and expecting his underlings to do so; Carmine refuses to tell the truth and is placed on the suicide train by Skoller, who is externalizing his own overwhelming guilt over the same matter, which G and E find expressed on the website.  I've never seen any other show where guilt and its expression are just everywhere, brilliantly summed up in the little scene where Skoller walks away from his computer as all his family photos are being deleted.  Even Edie's father makes a statement, standing in the rain, that Goren seems to think he had something to do with his daughter's death.  It's as if the ramifications are everywhere like a ripple effect.  It's also great to see Carver so involved in the story; I really missed him when CI went on without him. Also, I have to put in a word for The Posthumous Collection

 

A couple observations about those: In The Posthumous Collection, it's seemingly so minor, but I like how Kathryn Erbe was even able to sort of change her undercover voice inflection when speaking to Jerry/Spencer. She sounded like Eames...but she didn't. That was pretty cool. Also liked how Goren just annoyed Spencer as Spencer was trying to make inroads with Eames. But that storyline was creepy as can be. Still, it's one of the very few episodes where we see the whys and hows of what made Spencer so despicable. The fact that his sister in prison when talking with G/E was still so nonchalant about it was disturbing.

 

As for No Exit, well, I've gushed about Eames' "little dance in hell" line enough, but I did like that that episode showed Carver talking to a grand jury. Since Carver seemed to be used less and less as the early seasons progressed, I've no doubt Courtney Vance was glad to have something of substance to actually do. And the process itself was interesting.

 

Also, I must say Darrell Hammond, like Stephen Colbert before him, surprised me. Yes, he played the smarmy, sleazy boss stereotype, but he did it fairly well. I was waiting for him to break into doing jokes, but he played it straight and did a good job making Len Timmons as despicable as he was. (Which kind of saddens me that he is now playing the very real, very dead Colonel Sanders in those new God-awful KFC ads. Doesn't SNL announcing pay the man enough? But I digress. Mr. Hammond went out of his comfort zone, and it paid off in this episode.)

[Spartan Girl]

"Magnificat" is on WE right now. Oh God, any time kids die is just hard to watch. That poor innocent Afghan family getting stormed in by the cops because of a false lead was a pretty bad moment too.

That icy cold husband still gives me the creeps. That wasn't just typical male ignorance, making his post partum depressed wife keep having kids, making her raise them all by herself and not letting her take meds...that's premeditated psychological abuse.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Spartan Girl

[WendyCR72]

That icy cold husband still gives me the creeps. That wasn't just typical male ignorance, making his post partum depressed wife keep having kids, making her raise them all by herself and not letting her take meds...that's premeditated psychological abuse.

 

Which is why, at the end, I liked it a lot when Bobby told Carver and Alex that Asshole Hubby's new family wouldn't include his son and had a friend, the children's rights advocate, come to help the boy.

 

It was moments like that which, despite Bobby's dysfunctional family later on and his own anger and issues he drowned in for a time, that showed he cared and had a heart and wasn't always just about the puzzle.

[Spartan Girl]

I still don't get why they couldn't charge the husband with accessory after the fact. He DID clean up the crime scene and hinder prosecution.

[WendyCR72]

I still don't get why they couldn't charge the husband with accessory after the fact. He DID clean up the crime scene and hinder prosecution.

Good point. But in each show, a little plot hole must fall. :-)

[WendyCR72]

"Sex Club". Meh. Never thought much of this one. Always thought it was also meta that Peter Bogdanovich played the Heffner-esque guy since he was involved with the tragic late Playboy Bunny Dorothy Stratten. (And later ended up marrying her sister.)

 

But this one never grabbed me.

[WendyCR72]

One of the two S4 episodes MyNetwork was showing this evening was "Want". I think that is still one of the creepiest episodes of the series even counting the latter half, what with homemade lobotomies. And as we know, the latter half got dark. Still, for what he was, I think NPH did do a good job bringing such a disturbed character to life. Although the somewhat Dahmer-esque fate NPH's character receives at the end seems most deserving, so...a warped silver lining, I guess.

 

I think this is one of the few times, however, I could not understand why Goren even had a shred of sympathy for the criminal. I was with Eames and her more colder practical attitude about him.

[Donny Ketchum]

"Sex Club". Meh. Never thought much of this one.

It had Eames's "This is why I became a cop.  You make so many friends" line, so there's that, at least.

[WendyCR72]

It had Eames's "This is why I became a cop.  You make so many friends" line, so there's that, at least.

 

Probably the only really good thing about that one. I guess the pseudo-"Playboy" stuff just didn't do anything for me with this one.

[Maherjunkie]

Oh it was a snooze fest.  Wake me up when Logan arrives.

[WendyCR72]

Oh it was a snooze fest.  Wake me up when Logan arrives.

 

Funny how he made his official cast-regular CI debut in "Grow", another episode that had to do with Nicole Wallace. I know she was basically the Moriarty to Goren's Sherlock Holmes (with Eames as Watson), but sometimes I did wish - if we had to put up with Nicole at all - that one of the Logan episodes could have had him deal with her. I'm curious as to how such a dynamic would play out. Granted, she doesn't have the history with Logan and Barek/Wheeler, but the unknown would have added a bit of spark, I think.

 

And hey, if she could have ever been in a Nichols episode to maim or kill him, I would have been a fan for 15 minutes!

[cooksdelight]

Nichols might have bored Nicole to death instead of having to shoot her.

[WendyCR72]

Nichols might have bored Nicole to death instead of having to shoot her.

 

Nichols was always presented as smart with his shrink folks, but to Nicole? I bet he was absolutely pedestrian. I would have loved - for a second - to see her put Nichols through the ringer.

 

But, yeah, as you say, @cooksdelight, I think she'd be bored to death before that could occur, especially since Stevens was as low key as one got, too. Between N/S and the dark precinct that year (seriously, what happened to the light budget?), I'm surprised the actors or the audience stayed awake at all.

 

But, yeah, I am curious about Logan/Nicole. Although, if I recall, I think he did mention Nicole and Goren in one of "his" episodes to either Wheeler or Barek. Makes me wonder how Logan was filled in.

[Eolivet]

"Inert Dwarf" was on MyTV last night. Have to say, I've never seen that episode all the way through. It's never really engaged me enough to pay that close attention. Maybe it's because I don't like the actor playing Manotti. I've never seen him in anything else that I know of, he just looks sleazy. Like, from the first moment he's onscreen. It was like those episodes of Castle where the most famous guest star is always the killer, except this time, it's the creepiest looking guy.

 

"The View From Up Here" is another odd episode. It almost reminds me of early S1 eps, where they tried to do too many things and it ended up being too convoluted (the building, the affairs, the camera, the nanny, etc., etc.) Not as sharp as some other eps.

 

Though when Adam Goldberg (inexplicably, bizarrely) says at the end "I killed your man," I always mentally add "And Chandler's fish!" He will always be creepy roommate Eddie on Friends to me.

[WendyCR72]

"Inert Dwarf" was on MyTV last night. Have to say, I've never seen that episode all the way through. It's never really engaged me enough to pay that close attention. Maybe it's because I don't like the actor playing Manotti. I've never seen him in anything else that I know of, he just looks sleazy. Like, from the first moment he's onscreen. It was like those episodes of Castle where the most famous guest star is always the killer, except this time, it's the creepiest looking guy.

 

"The View From Up Here" is another odd episode. It almost reminds me of early S1 eps, where they tried to do too many things and it ended up being too convoluted (the building, the affairs, the camera, the nanny, etc., etc.) Not as sharp as some other eps.

 

Though when Adam Goldberg (inexplicably, bizarrely) says at the end "I killed your man," I always mentally add "And Chandler's fish!" He will always be creepy roommate Eddie on Friends to me.

 

Eddie! LOL! Yeah. And with Victor, Adam Goldberg's character on CI, I half expected one of the tenants to break out screaming, as Chandler did, "He's outside holding a human head!" (When Eddie inexplicably had a mannequin head.) Totally messed up yet funny.  :-)

 

At least Eddie's creepiness had a humorous element. Victor was just weird. And creepy. Seems like Goldberg has made a career out of playing weirdos.

[Maherjunkie]

 

But, yeah, I am curious about Logan/Nicole. Although, if I recall, I think he did mention Nicole and Goren in one of "his" episodes to either Wheeler or Barek. Makes me wonder how Logan was filled in.

What ep was that?  Goren fills him in in Grow.  I too would have loved to see them go at it.."This broad thinks she can play me....."

[WendyCR72]

What ep was that?  Goren fills him in in Grow.  I too would have loved to see them go at it.."This broad thinks she can play me....."

 

I honestly forget the episode, but I recall him telling his partner - Barek or Wheeler - about how Goren knows more about her or something involved in one of their cases that referenced her or something. It was a quick random comment, but I know it happened, damn it.  :-) 

 

I could see Nicole trying to seduce Logan or something... Sadly, forever a missed opportunity.

[cooksdelight]

I'm not sure Logan had the ghosts in his closet type of buttons to push that would have interested Nicole.

[WendyCR72]

I'm not sure Logan had the ghosts in his closet type of buttons to push that would have interested Nicole.

 

Probably not, but I think Nicole would still get a thrill out of using her sexuality to try to engage with Logan that way. And Logan, being volatile a lot of the time himself, could still probably have buttons pushed if Nicole cared enough to keep digging at him and exposing the raw nerves as she was wont to do!

[WendyCR72]

Oh, "Posthumous Collection" is on WE! Good one, even if extremely creepy. One of my favorites from that season. (Honest mistake first typing "Collective" since both episodes have a variation in the title! Although the latter is also good. Coincidentally, that is on MyNetwork tonight.)

[cooksdelight]

"The Posthumous Collection" is on here, on WE. I looked up the guy who played the killer Spencer Farnell, as he looked familiar, and he's been in a lot of different types of roles. But his photo on IMDB is downright creepy.

[WendyCR72]

"The Posthumous Collection" is on here, on WE. I looked up the guy who played the killer Spencer Farnell, as he looked familiar, and he's been in a lot of different types of roles. But his photo on IMDB is downright creepy.

 

Yeah, I edited above.  :-)  Collection/Collective...play on titles.  :-) Glad I enjoy both!

 

One thing I was always curious about: The dead women in the photos always looked so serene. I'd think if someone were sitting on my chest, asphyxiating me, I'd be struggling to get him off of me.  And I can't imagine being able to pose a dead person's facial expression unless you're a mortician.

 

Clearly, I think too much about this stuff. LOL!

[cooksdelight]

I wondered if he was into necrophelia, because he was THAT creepy to me. He picked women who were just damn glad to finally have a date, so I think they probably thought he was role playing as a prelude to sex and they were dead before they knew what hit them.

[WendyCR72]

I wondered if he was into necrophelia, because he was THAT creepy to me. He picked women who were just damn glad to finally have a date, so I think they probably thought he was role playing as a prelude to sex and they were dead before they knew what hit them.

 

Eeewww, but I suppose the necrophilia angle isn't that far-fetched given the background of the rest of his family and how depraved they were.

[Eolivet]

The dead women in the photos always looked so serene. I'd think if someone were sitting on my chest, asphyxiating me, I'd be struggling to get him off of me.

 

I always assumed he drugged them.

 

"Gone" and "Collective" on MyNetwork last night. "Collective" is an odd one, because I absolutely love the details (I mean, the episode writer created the world of Carlotta Francis, the plots of the novels, and her characters) and the concept of a woman preying on rich geeks is an interesting and creative one. But I feel like the show got so wrapped up in the details that they forgot the case part of the case. In addition to the 11th hour reveal of the carbon dioxide tube, I noticed how they never really gave any inclination (until Goren deducted it) that Dorian hated his friends. All we see of them interacting is "She'll be here" and then when he agrees to "cover" for them. Him framing them is so out of the blue, and just feels like a massive overreaction. And I wonder why the writer did that. Why couldn't it have been one of the friends going rogue and tampering with the battery? Why did it have to be Dorian? If they thought it would make him less pathetic, they were wrong.

 

It's like the writer got so wrapped up in the Carlotta Francis world building that he/she forgot to write...y'know...the plot.

 

I do love the scene where Bobby shoots the toy gun in the seven ways at all the antique dealer's stuff, to make him give up his customer list. That was classic.

[cooksdelight]

I do love the scene where Bobby shoots the toy gun in the seven ways at all the antique dealer's stuff, to make him give up his customer list. That was classic.

As my ex-husband said "A Johnny Seven gun was the shits!" :)

[Maherjunkie]

She wasn't scamming his codependent friends with the shrew redhead ("Honey-we have to go") she was scamming Dorian.  I totally understand why the writer did that.

[Eolivet]

She wasn't scamming his codependent friends with the shrew redhead ("Honey-we have to go") she was scamming Dorian.  I totally understand why the writer did that.

 

I understand that, but my annoyance is with the reason he framed his friends. It wasn't just that they were convenient scapegoats (which I sort of would've understood), but that he ~secretly hated himself and them. My question is: why was that deep-seated motive necessary, from a writer's perspective? Why couldn't Dorian have just set up the friends to throw suspicion off himself? Because Goren's speech at the end wasn't "You set up your friends so we wouldn't catch you," it was "You set up your friends because you secretly hate them and yourself." And to that I say...huh?

[WendyCR72]

I do love the scene where Bobby shoots the toy gun in the seven ways at all the antique dealer's stuff, to make him give up his customer list. That was classic.

 

My favorite part of the entire episode. And I love how Alex just smirked/smiled while Bobby played, knowing what he was doing. The day player cop saying he was going for a walk was sort of cool, too, leaving G/E to their devices for a bit.

[cooksdelight]

Funny... watching "Silver Lining" and the blue and white plates that are on the wall in the silver room... are currently down the hall in my office. They are up for sale, I really have no place to put them.

[WendyCR72]

I understand that, but my annoyance is with the reason he framed his friends. It wasn't just that they were convenient scapegoats (which I sort of would've understood), but that he ~secretly hated himself and them. My question is: why was that deep-seated motive necessary, from a writer's perspective?

 

Seems like the writer was so excited to create Carlotta Francis, a.k.a. a nod to Anne Rice, but forgot to craft a bonafide motive for a murder surrounding it. Maybe instead of having the woman fall for Dorian, she should have just remained the heartless con who got the toy collector killed, then Dorian and/or his friends could have found out about her, and then killed her.

 

It would make more sense than what was offered up. A little.

[Maherjunkie]

Better.  Hated the Asian guy and his tentacled wife.

[cooksdelight]

"This is like high school without the zits" from Eames pretty much sums that group up, to a T.

[WendyCR72]

"This is like high school without the zits" from Eames pretty much sums that group up, to a T.

 

Indeed. I liked Bobby's little dig of "sad vampire sex", too. I do like the episode, but it is lesser in terms of the case and just weird.

[Donny Ketchum]

But I feel like the show got so wrapped up in the details that they forgot the case part of the case. In addition to the 11th hour reveal of the carbon dioxide tube, I noticed how they never really gave any inclination (until Goren deducted it) that Dorian hated his friends. All we see of them interacting is "She'll be here" and then when he agrees to "cover" for them. Him framing them is so out of the blue, and just feels like a massive overreaction. And I wonder why the writer did that. Why couldn't it have been one of the friends going rogue and tampering with the battery? Why did it have to be Dorian? If they thought it would make him less pathetic, they were wrong.

I think it was just to make Dorian look and feel like such a heel in the end when he ended up realizing that the victim really had come to love him.  I mean, in the cold open, she's shown admitting as much to . . . someone.  So he basically killed the woman he loved, who also turned out to love him back.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Donny Ketchum

[cooksdelight]

But I thought they made that part up, about her being in love with him? To get him to confess?