PODCAST S01.E19 Go Pirates!: And They Call It Puppy LoVe

[Primetimer]

Veronica Mars busts a hound-napping ring -- and this nice young man's heart -- in S01.E19, 'Hot Dogs.'

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[Primetimer]

When the important pics from S01.E19 hit your eye like a big pizza pie, that's amore!

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[Affogato]

It's been a while but there is a plot in Siddhartha/Hesse that involves Siddhartha trying to raise his difficult son after the mother's death (bit by viper) and finally he runs away and Siddhartha realizes he has to let him go. Aaron may actually be preparing for his publicity tour after Logan storms out.

Love Mandy and Chester and Backup and this whole MOTW. It would have been nice if she'd remained closer to Veronica, too.

That bit with Leo was sad to me, actually. Veronica was a jerk to him. Glad he helped out, although it is his job in this case.

[azaleagirl]

So, with regards to Haaron & his talk about growing up with an abusive father, could this have been acting? I didn't think about it until listening to the podcast and the soundclip.

As animal lover & pet guardian, I got pretty weepy at times. I think I enjoyed the rewatch more. I couldn't remember the fate of Chester, tbh so it was tense.

[pau]

48 minutes ago, azaleagirl said:

So, with regards to Haaron & his talk about growing up with an abusive father, could this have been acting? I didn't think about it until listening to the podcast and the soundclip.

As animal lover & pet guardian, I got pretty weepy at times. I think I enjoyed the rewatch more. I couldn't remember the fate of Chester, tbh so it was tense.

It was not acting and it explained pretty well why Aaron was who he was..

[LCanterbury]

I found the whole Haaron 'redemption arc' to be in line with his character - everything was a calculated act and he could justify all of his behaviour (even the most heinous) because of his past and the occasional good deed. Or maybe I, like others, loved HH's performance so much I totally fanwanked it.

[Affogato]

I knew a woman who was beaten by her adoptive father growing up. He apologized later, sincerely apologized when he learned her biological father had been white. He had assumed that his beatings were necessary to counteract the effects of her racial background. He was willing to admit he made a mistake. 

I think Aaron is a lot like this. I think he is sincere, I think he believes he is a good person, I think he believes that Logan, as an entitled, lazy rich kid who needs to be beaten. Like Aaron's dad beat him. Aaron didn't like it, but he turned out ok, right?

Personally, I think his direct (and really horrifically violent) beating of Trina's boyfriend, while superficially satisfying, is part and parcel of the same heritage of abusive violence. 

So yes, I believe Aaron's redemptive arc, that is I believe he is sincere as he talks about it. I also believe that he is playing the grieving husband for the cheap seats without even realizing it, because he has done it for so long. I also believe that not beating Logan doesn't even occur to him seriously as part of his redemption.

[Affogato]

Lynn and Trina are both members of the 'women are delicate' supertrope. They are ineffectual, never as strong as men, need protection, need to be put on a pedestal, shouldn't be reckless, should let men take care of them....as happens with Trina in this episode. When she is abused both Aaron and Logan rise to her protection. Very similar responses. The echolls men are very traditional men in that they expect their women to allow themselves to be protected by their men.

I think virtually all the other women, Veronica/Mandy/Mac/Lilly/Hannah/Meg/etc all avert this trope.

Personally I think this causes a lot of problems for Logan in relationships.

I also think that Logan is actually Aaron's son, in the same way that Aaron is his father's son. Logan may not beat women or children, ever in his life, but those arent' the only things he's had the opportunity to learn. And struggles with throughout his life. 

Edited October 29, 2017 by Affogato

[Jessie monster]

Francis Capra was such a fox.

[Tvfangirl]

Yes, I don't see this as a true redemption arc, because while the violence is to an extent deserved, it is still shocking, still brutal, still out of control to an extent. Totally compatible with where his character ends. And not so much indicative of a loving father, but that you don't mess with Aaron or Aaron's things, and his daughter is one of his things. Kind of a "don't mess with the bull or you'll get the horns."  If you dont cross him, he'll be perfectly charming in his own way, fake as it may be. Even he he thinks he is a good guy and that any actions he takes are justified. I sense no remorse. 

Edited October 29, 2017 by Tvfangirl
Grammar

[secnarf]

I didn't see this as a redemption arc at all. I saw it as evidence of how psychotic Aaron is. I agree with @Tvfangirl - I think Aaron saw Trina as one of his possessions. I don't think he really values Trina as a person; I saw it as defending his property in a rather psychotic way.

Re: Leo, I did give Veronica some points for asking him for a favour *after* breaking up with him, rather than holding off so she could use him first, and then dump him. And I could buy Veronica genuinely believing that it was the honourable thing to do - busting the dog-napping ring needs to be done, and Leo is someone who can do it, so she doesn't feel she has a choice but to ask him. She then chooses the most honest way of going about it.

[pau]

18 hours ago, Affogato said:

 

I think Aaron is a lot like this. I think he is sincere, I think he believes he is a good person, I think he believes that Logan, as an entitled, lazy rich kid who needs to be beaten. Like Aaron's dad beat him. Aaron didn't like it, but he turned out ok, right?

Personally, I think his direct (and really horrifically violent) beating of Trina's boyfriend, while superficially satisfying, is part and parcel of the same heritage of abusive violence. 

So yes, I believe Aaron's redemptive arc, that is I believe he is sincere as he talks about it. I also believe that he is playing the grieving husband for the cheap seats without even realizing it, because he has done it for so long. I also believe that not beating Logan doesn't even occur to him seriously as part of his redemption.

I agree with that

17 hours ago, Affogato said:

Lynn and Trina are both members of the 'women are delicate' supertrope. They are ineffectual, never as strong as men, need protection, need to be put on a pedestal, shouldn't be reckless, should let men take care of them....as happens with Trina in this episode. When she is abused both Aaron and Logan rise to her protection. Very similar responses. The echolls men are very traditional men in that they expect their women to allow themselves to be protected by their men.

I think virtually all the other women, Veronica/Mandy/Mac/Lilly/Hannah/Meg/etc all avert this trope.

Personally I think this causes a lot of problems for Logan in relationships.

I also think that Logan is actually Aaron's son, in the same way that Aaron is his father's son. Logan may not beat women or children, ever in his life, but those arent' the only things he's had the opportunity to learn. And struggles with throughout his life. 

And i totally disagree with that.

It's funny.

And although Lynn is pretty passive, she is not ineffectual, actually she can be sneaky and effective..she got revenge on Aaron.

And Trinna is not effectual, weak ect.. Aaron just saw her as one of his possession, you don't mess with.

Trinna is smart, resourceful..she is maybe the one in this family who knew how to land on her feet the best..with maybe Logan but he struggles a lot, which is comprehensible.

And how Logan see women is so much more layered and complex than that..of course he wants to protect his mother..like almost all little boys want to do with their mother they saw all their childhood being mistreated..With his sister and friends/girlfriends it is much more moderate and ambivalent.

 

3 hours ago, Tvfangirl said:

Yes, I don't see this as a true redemption arc, because while the violence is to an extent deserved, it is still shocking, still brutal, still out of control to an extent. Totally compatible with where his character ends. And not so much indicative of a loving father, but that you don't mess with Aaron or Aaron's things, and his daughter is one of his things. Kind of a "don't mess with the bull or you'll get the horns."  If you dont cross him, he'll be perfectly charming in his own way, fake as it may be. Even he he thinks he is a good guy and that any actions he takes are justified. I sense no remorse. 

I think Aaron see himself as a 'good guy', he convinced himself.. in all his little world, he thinks deep down he is justified..he is a complex character.

Edited October 29, 2017 by pau

[scarynikki12]

3 hours ago, Tvfangirl said:

Yes, I don't see this as a true redemption arc, because while the violence is to an extent deserved, it is still shocking, still brutal, still out of control to an extent. Totally compatible with where his character ends. And not so much indicative of a loving father, but that you don't mess with Aaron or Aaron's things, and his daughter is one of his things. Kind of a "don't mess with the bull or you'll get the horns."  If you dont cross him, he'll be perfectly charming in his own way, fake as it may be. Even he he thinks he is a good guy and that any actions he takes are justified. I sense no remorse. 

Agreed.  While he was yelling at Dylan, he referred to Trina as "you think you can hit my daughter?  MY daughter?!", which drives it home.  Now, tv overdoes characters referring to loved ones as "my wife, my son, my father, etc" to the point that I sometimes wonder if the characters are saying that because they've forgotten the actual names, but I think this was a deliberate move from VM.  Aaron may have some anger on Trina's behalf but the majority of what he's feeling is outrage that Dylan messed with HIS daughter.  It all comes back to Aaron.  He was more upset that Logan's bumfights made HIM look bad than the reality of them.  He was more upset that Logan publicly conned HIM into donating a ton of money to that shelter than the fact that it was needed at all.  He was more upset that his cheating was outed and made HIM look bad than the fact that Lynn was hurt.  Lynn kills herself and he focuses on how HE feels rather than what drove her to the act or how it affects Logan.  His assault of Dylan is when he makes his outlook explicitly clear (MY daughter!) but it's been escalating all season.  The show did a great job with this character.

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, pau said:

I agree with that

And i totally disagree with that.

It's funny.

And although Lynn is pretty passive, she is not ineffectual, actually she can be sneaky and effective..she got revenge on Aaron.

And Trinna is not effectual, weak ect.. Aaron just saw her as one of his possession, you don't mess with.

Trinna is smart, resourceful..she is maybe the one in this family who knew how to land on her feet the best..with maybe Logan but he struggles a lot, which is comprehensible.

And how Logan see women is so much more layered and complex than that..of course he wants to protect his mother..like almost all little boys want to do with their mother they saw all their childhood being mistreated..With his sister and friends/girlfriends it is much more moderate and ambivalent.

 

I think Aaron see himself as a 'good guy', he convinced himself.. in all his little world, he thinks deep down he is justified..he is a complex character.

Women in the women are delicate trope are not necessarily completely weak and ineffectual, although if you think about it Lynn's campaign against Aaron was really pretty feeble. She was not leaving him, right? Even though we know she could support herself and a son, she could not leave the umbrella of her man, who beat her son. 

I also think that living off stolen credit cards financed by Aaron, and the rest of Trina's limited storylines are mostly her looking to a man for support and protection. Like Lynn, she tries to manipulate Aaron into giving her what she wants instead of taking what she wants on her own, even though it is clear she is capable of this.

There are other parts of the trope neither of them fit, neither seem overwhelmingly nurturing, which is one of the main virtues delicate women are supposed to have. 

But the trope isn't an absolute, it is how people act inside a story. We don't see every aspect of their lives.

I think that by this episode we haven't really seen much of how Logan sees women, but we have seen his responses are similar to things we see from Aaron in this episode (including the story he tells about how if he'd been together with Lilly he would have protected her). Of course, what happens going forward may or may not support what I'm saying. I agree that at this time Logan seems sweet, pretty normal, pretty much like a good guy, exciting, fun, social, well liked. With just a few cracks in the veneer.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Affogato

[pau]

13 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Women in the women are delicate trope are not necessarily completely weak and ineffectual, although if you think about it Lynn's campaign against Aaron was really pretty feeble. She was not leaving him, right? Even though we know she could support herself and a son, she could not leave the umbrella of her man, who beat her son. 

I also think that living off stolen credit cards financed by Aaron, and the rest of Trina's limited storylines are mostly her looking to a man for support and protection. Like Lynn, she tries to manipulate Aaron into giving her what she wants instead of taking what she wants on her own, even though it is clear she is capable of this.

There are other parts of the trope neither of them fit, neither seem overwhelmingly nurturing, which is one of the main virtues delicate women are supposed to have. 

But the trope isn't an absolute, it is how people act inside a story. We don't see every aspect of their lives.

I think that by this episode we haven't really seen much of how Logan sees women, but we have seen his responses are similar to things we see from Aaron in this episode (including the story he tells about how if he'd been together with Lilly he would have protected her). 

I disagree because i think this show is better than some usual american tv show showcasing some generic, cliche 'trope'..This show's writers knew how to twist these 'trope' in order to make their characters more multidimensional and realistic.

And like i said Logan's view of women/girls is so much more layered than what you said in your posts in my honest opinion.

Edited October 29, 2017 by pau

[bluebox]

Me when I hear Sarah/John say "and we never saw her again": (screaming) "YES WE DO!"

[John Potts]

# When your dad meets your "friend",

And he kicks his rear end,

That's amore!

When he blubbers in tears,

And the audience cheers,

That's amore! #

...of course, rather more disturbing in the light of later revelations, but I cheered at the time.

19 hours ago, secnarf said:

I didn't see this as a redemption arc at all. I saw it as evidence of how psychotic Aaron is. I agree with @Tvfangirl - I think Aaron saw Trina as one of his possessions.

Yeah, I saw it as Aaron going, "Nobody hits my family but ME!" And Trina's behaviour fits with the fact that (in TV, at least) children replicate their parents' behaviour. Just as Aaron is replicating his dad's behaviour - and Logan shows aspects of Aaron, too (I took Aaron's story as true, but YMMV), Trina is imitating her (step)mother's behaviour in seeing abuse as the price you pay to "keep your man".

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Quote

I don't think he really values Trina as a person; I saw it as defending his property in a rather psychotic way.

I'd agree with that; I should clarify that it's not so much that it's inconsistent for the character, I guess, and more that the writing seems inconsistent in how it wants us to think about Aaron. The soundtrack cue clearly wants us to think it's good/amusing and be Team Aaron about it, and while I'm not against Stupid Producer Boyfriend getting smacked around just on GPs, it feels weird to root for the smacker.

[pau]

For me the scene when Aaron beat up Trina's boyfriend is straight from a Tarantino movie..and like a Tarantino's character/protagonist we are supposed to enjoy Aaron and the scene while being disturbed at how psychotic/crazy/violent he is while rooting a a little bit..just a little bit and yet..for him..I admit it works for me..i really enjoyed this scene for the entertaining/funny side  while being disturbed by it and knowing it was bad and i would never ever do that and would totally condemn it in real life..ha.

It is disturbing and funny at the same time..

Edited October 30, 2017 by pau

[Affogato]

13 hours ago, Sarah D. Bunting said:

I'd agree with that; I should clarify that it's not so much that it's inconsistent for the character, I guess, and more that the writing seems inconsistent in how it wants us to think about Aaron. The soundtrack cue clearly wants us to think it's good/amusing and be Team Aaron about it, and while I'm not against Stupid Producer Boyfriend getting smacked around just on GPs, it feels weird to root for the smacker.

Initially it is exhilarating but as it continues it becomes awful. Like eating a whole bunch of candy very fast and then realizing the consequences. Candy makes you fat and solving problems with abusive violence—he wasn’t defending or subduing—makes you abusive. 

I think your supposed to be drawn in by the soundtrack and then realize what you’re doing. 

Edited October 31, 2017 by Affogato

[Affogato]

Just a thought. Excepting twin peaks: the return I’m have no trouble thinking of any other tv shows, especially teen network shows, but any, with that level of real violence. I’m sure there are incidents but this is pretty rare, I think.