A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Dani-Ellie]

Y'know, I kinda liked the irony of the Neal situation. Like, he is the reason Rumple spent centuries plotting and planning and did all this and he still died in the end. I liked that, in this instance, evil machinations weren't rewarded. (Because goodness knows "all magic comes with a price" doesn't usually carry much lasting price for the villains.)

 

I would have liked it a lot better, though, if there had been follow-through with the stories Neal was involved in. Let's see him and Emma hash things out beyond, "I didn't have a choice" "Yeah, I know." Let's see him and Rumple hash things out beyond "I'm still mad at you" "I know." Let's see how he and Hook became relatively friendly again in Neverland. Basically, let's see the full emotional journey here so that Neal's death means something to everyone. Maybe then everyone on the show calling him a hero to the point that Snow and Charming named their baby after him would be a little less ludicrous.

[Camera One]

I liked that, in this instance, evil machinations weren't rewarded.

 

No, but who paid for it?  Bae as a kid and Neal as an adult.  That isn't exactly what I call justice.

[Dani-Ellie]

No, but Regina's "prices" weren't confined to Regina, either. Never seeing Henry again may have been her price to pay for stopping Pan's curse but Snow, Charming, Neal, Hook, Emma, and Henry all paid for that, too. For the most part, I like that evil is far-reaching with consequences beyond what someone might immediately think. If the show actually followed through with those kinds of consequences more, maybe the power distribution wouldn't feel so imbalanced.

[Camera One]

Maybe, but it sure isn't satisfying to watch.  Regina's latest consequence didn't even stick (she got to see Henry again, she got to have him remember her again, and he was right back to affirming how much of a hero she is).  It would be nice if they and only they paid for something they did for once.

[Dani-Ellie]

That I do agree with, especially the not sticking. Oh, how I would have loved for Henry to get his memories back of everyone but Regina.

[Rumsy4]

Or if he had also remembered the brainwashing, and pulled away from her. But nooo--he needed to coddle her so she could work her heartless Light Magic.

Edited September 23, 2014 by Rumsy4

[stealinghome]

Yeah--I like the karmic part of Rumpel not getting Bae back on Rumpel's side, but what a shit hand Bae got dealt, at the end of the day. Way too often on this show, everyone but the magic user pays the true price for the magic used.

[KingOfHearts]

 

You know, I had never given that diner speech much thought (I was too busy trying NOT to hurl my TV out the window at the name reveal) but you are totally right. They really BARELY KNEW HIM.

Only Snow White and Prince Charming would name their child after the man who knocked up their daughter, threw her in jail, then killed himself.

 

I agree Regina wasn't the only person who didn't pay consequences. The very fact we're back in Storybrooke in the next episode severely cheapens the big goodbye. To add insult to injury, everyone but Regina and Neal in the Enchanted Forest is over it in literally five minutes. Now with Emma back in Storybrooke permanently, it makes her whole year in New York worth nothing. The only thing different is that she now has stronger motherly ties with Henry. Not even Henry is different now - he's no different than he would have been if he stayed in Storybrooke.

 

It bothers me that the writers gave us the best finale ending since S1, then everything goes back to normal like a typical winter/spring break. I really wish they would have saved it for the end of a full season instead. I don't understand the logic with that. It's a reset without the reset. Then you look at the finale for the whole third season, which isn't nearly as thought-provoking.

Edited September 23, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

It's a reset without the reset.

Because the writers are fundamentally too afraid/uncreative to actually reset the show.

[SilverShadow]

Continuing my insane one week marathon. I'm up to Tallahassee and I think the major issue with Neal is there's such a giant disconnect between him and Bae. He comes off so modern and grimy and doesn't look much like Bae at all beyond the dark hair. There's no shared mannerisms like with Bailey and Ginny or the girl that played Teen!Emma.

 

Neal as his own character comes off all right in Tallahassee if you know via Adam and Eddy that August was the one that called the cops. August however comes off as the tooliest tool that ever tooled. He abandoned Emma when she was a baby, came back sixteen years later, ruined her life, then stole the money Neal intended for her and fucked off to Thailand after promising yet again to watch after her and make sure she was all right. Any lingering guilt for blaming the seven year old him for the first abandonment is soooooo gone.  

[Rumsy4]

Because the writers are fundamentally too afraid/uncreative to actually reset the show.

 

Agree. Fringe and Eureka have both reset their Shows in a pretty drastic manner. With Fringe, the reset mostly failed, although they managed to sort of salvage it by the end. It was very successful with Eureka. Taking this to the Wishing Upon a Star thread.

[Camera One]

Because the writers are fundamentally too afraid/uncreative to actually reset the show.

 

It was so disappointing that they didn't even *try* to maintain the reset beyond an episode.  Now that we've watched the rest of the season, what the heck was the rush?  Nothing freak'in happened.  Once again, these guys worked on "Lost" where turning the series on its head was a normal thing.  They went halfway there with the reset and then completely reversed on it.  So bizarre.

[FabulousTater]

Once again, these guys worked on "Lost" where turning the series on its head was a normal thing.

Ya, but just because they worked on "Lost" doesn't mean they learned to do anything properly. It's not like great storytelling skills are acquired by osmosis. Not every person who formerly worked at Apple left and spun-off their own technological phenomenon, or that every guy who apprenticed with Rembrandt went off and became an artistic phenom. 

 

S1 does seems to indicate that A&E were capable of putting a decent 22 episode story together if given lots and lots and lots of time to think it out (something like 8 years), but that doesn't mean they really thought out the real overarching story, that which would be told over several seasons.

 

I think it's very clear that they started this whole crazy ass show with only two points in mind and actually mapped out (and it was that which they wrote s1 around) -- "Point A": Daughter of Snow White and Prince Charming comes to a town cursed by The Evil Queen to save the people of fairytale lore, and "Point B": Said daughter breaks the curse. That's it. They never planned past that let alone thought anything else through (they never truly pondered the consequences of curse breaking to the fairytale folk, the true impact to the individual characters, (hell, consequences in general!), what it would all mean, how it would all work, etc.).

 

Someone mentioned once that OUAT S1 would've made a great mini-series (which I agree), but as an extended series it blows chunks since they never thought anything out past that s1 finale. They were very clearly caught with their pants down and their asses in the air when the show got renewed for another season. It shows that A&E are making this shit up as they go along (and I do mean shit).

Edited September 23, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Camera One]

hat's it. They never planned past that let alone thought anything else through (they never truly pondered the consequences of curse breaking to the fairytale folk, the true impact to the individual characters, (hell, consequences in genera!), what it would all mean, how it would all work, etc.).

 

And yet they were in such a rush to break the Curse?  Did they think the stories would write themselves?

[Rumsy4]

They have mentioned that their original germ of idea was the question of where the Evil Queen could achieve her Happy Ending (I've linked that interview here before). And the answer was the Real World. So, even Emma Swan was the means to an end, and it shows. It explains their huge permaboner for Regina and the 99980 Evil Queen-related flashbacks they keep giving us. A bait and switch if ever there was one.

Edited September 23, 2014 by Rumsy4

[stealinghome]

The problem isn't that they don't have ideas, though. They have ideas (too many ideas)--and often they are decent to very good ideas, in theory. The problem has been the execution, and the fact that the show has become insanely plot-driven when what is special about it is the relationships and characters (and the writers suck at writing plots).

 

Slight addendum: I totally, 500% agree that they clearly did not have a plan for the show past the ending of Season 1. However, that fact in and of itself isn't the problem. The problem is that, when S1 was wildly successful and it became obvious they were going to get renewed (likely for multiple seasons), *they didn't sit down and come up with a cohesive, overarching plan for the entire rest of the series.* And again, the problem isn't that they lack ideas. The problem is terrible, awful planning and execution.

Edited September 23, 2014 by stealinghome

[FabulousTater]

Ya, it's not like they don't have ideas but that's all they seem to have (if not given a decade to sort out the details). The way I see it, A&E seem to be the "big idea" guys. They don't seem to have a mind for details, continuity, or character coherence without someone else hovering over them to manage the bigger story like I think was their experience on "Lost".

 

I think without someone else to oversee them, A&E could be the guys you call up when you need a big idea for the seed of a story. But then that "big idea" should be handed over to an entirely different group that figures out the internals, the logistics and maps out the actual details for the overarching story. And it's from that big story blueprint (and always, always, always with the bigger blueprint in mind) that the individual episodic stories should be derived. Unfortunately that's not the case for this show. Here, there is no blueprint; there is no group that has figured out the logistics or details or has even thought out the whole story.

 

I think ONCE has individually decent writers. But those writers are all good at writing just their own single episode, and there just isn't anyone on the creative team with the big story blueprint in hand (because it doesn't exist) to herd these cats and that, more importantly, is capable of standing back, looking at the forest from the trees, and seeing that what they're putting together is shit. That should be A&E's job, but clearly, not everyone who's a writer can be a good showrunner.

[stealinghome]

I agree with that. The biggest mistake ABC made with Once, imo, is not bringing in some form of oversight over A&E. They really, really needed a more experienced exec to ground them.

[Amerilla]

I was reading a review of the season premier of "Sleepy Hollow," and the reviwer was pointing that there are, as always in the series, some narrative leaps and contrivances, but:

 

"The series serves as an excellent example of how cohesion is a relative term. If the narrative can make sense on its own terms - if events follow a recognizable logic, however twisted or fever dream that logic might be - it can succeed. All it needs is momentum, a few clever ideas, and characters we care about."

 

Applying this metric to OUAT, I think it's easy to see where it fails. We left "recognizable logic" somewhere back in S2. "Momentum" is a laughable concept in a show that stops to give Henry a driving lesson while the Wicked Witch is gearing up for her final assault. As the characters become more and more plot-driven, they cease to exist as living and breathing human beings with hopes and dreams and desires, so how much can we really care about pieces to be moved around a game board? "Clever ideas" they got; the ability to turn them into turn them into something meaningful, they don't.

[SilverShadow]

Honestly I think the first couple episodes of Season 2 and what they set up are what damn near killed the show. Viewers were waiting with anticipation for the emotional fallout from the curse breaking for the extended Snowing family and friends, Regina, and Rumpbelle. "Broken" opens with Neal, and then Aurora, Phillip, and Mulan, so viewers who have been dying to find out what happened to Snow, Emma, etc. have to sit through meeting these randoms that we don't yet know or care about. I also think the costuming and casting screwed them over somewhat because none of those three inititally look or feel like their original versions. Aurora is closed off and auburn-haired, Phillip is evasive, and Mulan is cold and joyless, more like Shang at the start of the movie than herself. All the actors grew into their roles over time, but in their introduction we had zero emotional attachment to them.

 

Then to add insult to injury, the Wraith and Emma and Snow getting sent back to the Enchanted Forest mean that everything viewers had been patiently waiting for was indefinitely put on hold, and it stayed that way for the rest of the season, so much so, that a good chunk of 3A was the writers backtracking to cover everything they missed. I think the reason viewers are harsher on 2B is because we had the hope that once Snow and Emma were back we could get all the juicy stuff we'd been deprived of in the first half, but Cora, Regina's moral flip-flop, Nealfire, Owen and Tamara, and the Lacey plot that went nowhere didn't leave any room.

[Souris]

Nevermind.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Souris

[Camera One]

Honestly I think the first couple episodes of Season 2 and what they set up are what damn near killed the show.

I definitely agree with this, though strangely, I actually enjoyed the Philip, Aurora, and Mulan stuff for the most part.  I did feel gypped that Snow and Emma were transported away immediately, but I think even that was not necessarily the problem IF they had spent the Team Princess episodes having Snow and Emma come to grips with the realities of their relationship, and slowly melding friendship into mother/daughter.  The scene in the burned out nursery was so touching, but literally that was all we got.  It almost parallels that in 3A, all we got for Snow/Emma was the conversation at the end of "Lost Girl", which we now find out was meant for Hook.  

 

I think my own disappointment set in full-out with Episode 2, when there was no attempt in the Storybrooke part to deal with how the townspeople felt about having their memories back, and no real exploration of how David would now lead the town.  And to top it off, the episode was a Regina-centric.  Already by the second episode which was supposedly focusing on Charming.

 

I think the reason viewers are harsher on 2B is because we had the hope that once Snow and Emma were back we could get all the juicy stuff we'd been deprived of in the first half, but Cora, Regina's moral flip-flop, Nealfire, Owen and Tamara, and the Lacey plot that went nowhere didn't leave any room.

 

Yes, if the writers had dealt with Snow/Charming/Emma and the fallout from the Curse starting with "The Cricket Game", it wouldn't have been too late.  But the writers preferred to tell the story of the Megavillain Cora.  

 

so much so, that a good chunk of 3A was the writers backtracking to cover everything they missed.

 

The problem for me is they did not cover what they missed.  They claimed to, but they just paid lip service with a handful of scenes in the Season 3 premiere and then "Lost Girl", when the writing team was actually giving more thought to Hook/Emma than Snow/Emma until their last minute change of mind.

[SilverShadow]

I'm at the tail end of season 2 now. By the end of "Queen of Hearts" Mulan and Aurora definitely have come into their own. Owen and Tamara are the worst. Owen just hangs around being vaguely creepy forever before they bother doing anything with him. Tamara is so obviously the evil girlfriend from minute one, the actress is terrible, and I hate her so much. And Neal starting a relationship with her right when he finds out Emma will soon be free from her destiny reflects terribly on him. All they had to do was make sure Neal and her got together sometime after he left Emma, when he thought he'd never see her again.

 

And once again I am in awe how the same people who cast Bailey and Ginny and Barbara and Rose managed to make sure Neal looked, sounded, and acted nothing like Bae. I'm watching "Second Star To The Right", with Bae and Neal in the same episode, and there's just no feeling of continuance from one to the other. It's insane.

 

No, wait. August is the worse. Nope, wait. Regina. The entire second half is her "No one believes I can be good/why can't I just kill everyone and force my son to love me because anyone else he remotely cares about will be dead by my hand. They're the real villains." And the village of dead bodies plays just as horrifyingly on a repeat viewing. And lets not even get into "Welcome to Storybrooke".

 

And the click-clack of the plot train means that the extended Snowing family's issues are entirely dropped, it takes all of one episode for Cora to flip Regina like a light switch, and Gold finds Neal and then summarily ignore him for five episodes to bang Lacey-which the implications of that aren't at all horrifying. And Lacey is basically around for one episode, one scene, and for the final two episodes. They don't take the time to do anything interesting with the concept of an "evil" Disney Princess.

 

Which isn't to say that individual episodes aren't good. Many are, and some are even great. But the seasonal arc is defined by it's lack. Way too much wheel-spinning and flip-flopping. It's very very frustrating. I think Season 3 was a definite step up.

Edited September 25, 2014 by SilverShadow

[Camera One]

Well said, though after slogging through a Season 3 rewatch, I don't really consider Season 3 a step up... more like a step side-ways into a whole new realm of problems.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

Well said, though after slogging through a Season 3 rewatch, I don't really consider Season 3 a step up... more like a step side-ways into a whole new realm of problems.

 

I'd say 3A was a step-up, then 3B was a half-step down from there then sideways. I don't think 3B was as bad as 2B, but it had different problems. Both were PLOT PLOT PLOT, but 3B didn't ruin the show for life like 2B did. 

 

 

But the seasonal arc is defined by it's lack. Way too much wheel-spinning and flip-flopping. It's very very frustrating.

 

Regina wasn't the only flip-flopper in S2, I must say. You had Neal who wanted nothing to do with magic, then he moves to Storybrooke with his girlfriend. You have Greg who does nothing for like four episodes then all of a sudden he's Owen-Turned-Evil. Snow goes from a protective mother to a guilt-monger over the course of a few days. Hook randomly disappears for a while. (I know he broke his leg, but still.) Charmings work with Regina in 2A, then they decide she's still evil, then finally they save her life in the finale. It was all one big mess that was terribly hard to follow.

 

Killing Cora broke a lot of the consistency for the season as a whole. She was the link to 2A. After her death, it was just totally random from there on out. (I'm still mad Regina didn't turn on her, or there wasn't an epic magic battle!)

Edited September 25, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Jean]

And once again I am in awe how the same people who cast Bailey and Ginny and Barbara and Rose managed to make sure Neal looked, sounded, and acted nothing like Bae. I'm watching "Second Star To The Right", with Bae and Neal in the same episode, and there's just no feeling of continuance from one to the other. It's insane.

Don't remind me of the Neal debacle. Kid Bae even resembled Pan. I feel like someone should've been fired for that and I don't mean just MRJ. Such a waste. Bae should've been an epic character and a real game changer. He should've slotted right in with Rumple and co. Instead he felt like a character on Tamara/Greg's level and it wasn't just because he was hanging out with them. Even his wardrobe sucked. He looked more like a janitor on a random show than on a fantasy show.

How the hell does someone go from Bae to Neal? It doesn't compute at all. It's like going from filet mignon to cat food and claiming it's the same thing.

[Camera One]

How the hell does someone go from Bae to Neal? It doesn't compute at all.

 

They didn't bother to show us.  Why not?  They provided us with flashbacks chronicling how Regina went from Psycho Level 15.7 to Psycho Level 15.8.   They had flashbacks showing Hook going from good-guy to pirate and back again.  

 

 

And once again I am in awe how the same people who cast Bailey and Ginny and Barbara and Rose managed to make sure Neal looked, sounded, and acted nothing like Bae.

 

I remember back in "Talahassee", I had a major problem with how Neal was nothing like Bae.  His demeanor would have made him more appropriate as Eeyore.  But he did grow on me as a character even though there was still that disconnect with Bae.  I thought his scenes with Rumple, Henry and Emma (present-day) had potential.  He was a better actor than I originally thought in his first appearance.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Camera One

[Serena]

And once again I am in awe how the same people who cast Bailey and Ginny and Barbara and Rose managed to make sure Neal looked, sounded, and acted nothing like Bae. I'm watching "Second Star To The Right", with Bae and Neal in the same episode, and there's just no feeling of continuance from one to the other. It's insane.

To be fair, not the same people. Bailee and Rose were cast by the casting department. MRJ was cast by Adam and Eddy without even having to audition, because they liked him in... I want to say Terriers? Which is yet another proof that they should let the professionals do their jobs and interfere as little as possible. 

[Rumsy4]

I think they'd liked him in True Blood, which makes me wonder what exactly they'd planned for Neal. I thought I'd stop watching if 3A was as bad as the disaster that was the last half of S2. But in some ways, 3B was worse than S2. The Show jumped several sharks--by making the Dark Curse look like a joke, and messed with its own heart-mythology. I have such low expectations for S4, they'd have to try real hard to disappoint me. ;-)

[Serena]

They liked him in True Blood?? That's... that's... disturbing. Really?! They saw a creepy serial killer and thought "yup, that's Bae, and the guy who will be impregnating our teenage heroine"?? I need to go lie down.

[SilverShadow]

To be fair, not the same people. Bailee and Rose were cast by the casting department. MRJ was cast by Adam and Eddy without even having to audition, because they liked him in... I want to say Terriers?

 

That makes quite a lot of sense. But I wonder if Michael even knew who he was palying at first? Because if he was cast to be "Neal," acted to that part, and then was told later he was also Bae all grown up, it would be too late to change his style or his voice. And yeah, I think Michael is a perfectly good actor, and he brought emotion to his scenes, but the disconnect with Bae, and the writing making him brush off and talk down to Emma more often than not really hurt the character. I'm not at all surpised they ended up realizing it wasn't working.

 

I'd say 3A was a step-up, then 3B was a half-step down from there then sideways. I don't think 3B was as bad as 2B, but it had different problems. Both were PLOT PLOT PLOT, but 3B didn't ruin the show for life like 2B did. 

 

Have yet to rewatch but based on my memory I agree. 3A almost hit season 1 quality. 2B felt like a scramble and had several dud epsiodes and an arc that didn't hang together. 

Edited September 25, 2014 by SilverShadow

[angelwoody]

I saw MRJ on both True Blood and Terriers (a show that was totally underrated IMO) and thought he was fantastic on both.  I think he's a good actor, but I agree he was terribly miscast and it really sucked all of the heart, poignancy and believability out of the stories he was connected to.  

 

The glaring age difference (or appearance of it) between him and Emma - especially in her flashback scenes - made what was probably meant to be a story about two lost souls finding love and home together into the disturbing story of an older, creepy guy preying on and betraying a young, lost girl who loved him.  Add that to the fact there was no carryover between young Bae into adult Neal, which made it harder to buy the Rumpel/ Neal relationship regardless of how much the actors worked to sell it.  

 

It really boils down to a case of terrible casting.  

 

Speaking of Neal, can someone please remind me how August knew about him?  Knew not only who Bae was but also that Neal was Bae?  Can't for the life of me remember. 

[RadioGirl27]

It reallt boils down to a case of terrible casting

Yeah, MRJ is a fine actor, but he didn't fit the role. Apart from all the things already said, when I first saw him I thought he lacked the "fairytale" look the other actors from the show have. He looks too "real", too contemporary.

[angelwoody]

Yeah, MRJ is a fine actor, but he didn't fit the role. Apart from all the things already said, when I first saw him I thought he lacked the "fairytale" look the other actors from the show have. He looks too "real", too contemporary.

I hadn't thought of it that way, RadioGirl27, but I think you're right.  He was a little too "of this world."  Honestly, looks and wardrobe-wise, it's like he was on another, grittier type of show instead of the one everyone else was on.  I don't know if it was a choice by the actors and wardrobe people as a nod to how long he lived in our world and the rough life he's had, or what...

[Serena]

That makes quite a lot of sense. But I wonder if Michael even knew who he was palying at first? Because if he was cast to be "Neal," acted to that part, and then was told later he was also Bae all grown up, it would be too late to change his style or his voice. And yeah, I think Michael is a perfectly good actor, and he brought emotion to his scenes, but the disconnect with Bae, and the writing making him brush off and talk down to Emma more often than not really hurt the character. I'm not at all surpised they ended up realizing it wasn't working.

I think he knew. I seem to remember him saying he immediately accepted the role because he wanted to work with Robert.

 

And I mean, I agree he's a perfectly fine actor. I think my favourite scene of his is "it's Neal!" in 304 (I think) and basically all the scenes he had with RC were good. But even the best actor would come off poorly if the role isn't for him/the writing is shitty. And as much as him being Rumple's son was a big deal, his being Henry's father/Emma's past love was equally a big deal and he was completely wrong for that role-

 

I hadn't thought of it that way, RadioGirl27, but I think you're right.  He was a little too "of this world."  Honestly, looks and wardrobe-wise, it's like he was on another, grittier type of show instead of the one everyone else was on.  I don't know if it was a choice by the actors and wardrobe people as a nod to how long he lived in our world and the rough life he's had, or what...

It's also the writing's fault. His speech patterns were totally "our world".

Edited September 25, 2014 by Serena

[YaddaYadda]

His speech patterns were totally "our world".

 

That was normal though, wasn't it?  I mean Bae left the Enchanted Forest when he was 12-14, landed in England with the Darlings where we're not really sure how long he was there, then he was taken by the shadow to Neverland where he spent time with Hook and then on his own and we have no clue how long he was in Neverland though it seems like it's something that's close to 150 years (how many years of solitude?).  Then he comes back to our world in the body of a 12-14 year old, lives in our world, meets Emma when we're not really sure how old he is (might've been 21-25).  Him sounding the way he sounded came off as normal enough that it didn't bother me and neither did his looks actually.  I just found him too old looking for the role.

 

That being sad, while I enjoy holding Neal's feet to the fire, the writers squandered huge opportunities with the character.  I think maybe they realized they made a mistake and decided to fix it the way they did.  Who knows!

[Dani-Ellie]

I think the disconnect could have been helped with a "how Bae became Neal"-type story. His time in Neverland and here is just as much a question mark as Emma's entire history. I mean, I can totally buy that idealistic young Bae was broken down and became Neal over all his years alone, but I think actually seeing it would have helped a lot.

[angelwoody]

I think the disconnect could have been helped with a "how Bae became Neal"-type story. His time in Neverland and here is just as much a question mark as Emma's entire history. I mean, I can totally buy that idealistic young Bae was broken down and became Neal over all his years alone, but I think actually seeing it would have helped a lot.

Could not agree more on this.  And this is the problem with these writers: they are all sizzle and no steak!  What you just described would have been a great, meaty (apparently I'm hungry, lol) story line for MRJ/ Neal that probably would have smoothed over and filled in many of the bumps and gaps in the whole Bae/Neal transition.  And it would have been more interesting than so many of the pointless flashbacks we've been getting **cough*FreakingMedusa*cough**

[Shanna Marie]

I think another reason for the Bae/Neal disconnect is the fact that they didn't seem to even try to create a "young Neal" during the "Tallahassee" flashback that was in any way a bridge. He just seemed exactly the same as his present-day 30-something self. With all the other characters, they've done different things with hair, makeup and wardrobe to show the younger persona. Young Regina has softer makeup and looser hair. Young Emma had the ponytail, glasses and teen-type clothes. Young Hook lost the guyliner and jewelry and had the old-fashioned hair, plus the Navy uniform. Twelve years ago Neal dressed, looked and acted the same as present Neal. They didn't even try to cover the gray in his goatee. That had a double whammy in that he didn't look like he was only maybe ten years older than the Bae we've seen and he looked like a 30-something guy perving on a teenage girl.

 

So if we'd had a Bae escaping from Neverland and arriving in 1990s America flashback, showing how he got started in our world and how he took on the identity of Neal, maybe establishing the way he dressed so that we got to see teen Bae wearing some of the clothes we identify with Neal and if flashback Neal had been at all de-aged, that might have made more of a connection between the two.

[Jean]

I don't think a journey from Bae to Neal would've helped because I don't think the end product, Neal, fits on the show. No amount of flashbacks is going to fix that. It's so strange and I'm not sure I can properly explain it. Emma works as the "fish out of water" but Neal doesn't operate like that because he did grow up in the fairy tale world. He's nonchalant about everything but yet he doesn't fit. Even Wendy and her brothers from real world England feels like they were lifted from a fairy tale or story. He spent way way more time in some fairy tale world than real world so I don't buy that he integrated that well. He doesn't feel like a fairy tale character. He's the douche you knew in college. Or the guy that lived down the street that would throw cigarette butts in your yard. Maybe that works on another show but not Once.

[Camera One]

I think another reason for the Bae/Neal disconnect is the fact that they didn't seem to even try to create a "young Neal" during the "Tallahassee" flashback that was in any way a bridge. He just seemed exactly the same as his present-day 30-something self.

 

I agree that was a problem.  Though I suppose it's tougher to de-age a man than a woman, since there's not much you could do with Neal's short haircut.  Hook was easier, since no guyliner made such a big difference.  I even though the Young Emma look questionable.  Basically, she just wore thick rimmed glasses and put her hair in a ponytail, which didn't work for me.  Young Regina actually did look younger to me.

 

I don't think a journey from Bae to Neal would've helped because I don't think the end product, Neal, fits on the show. No amount of flashbacks is going to fix that. It's so strange and I'm not sure I can properly explain it.

 

I do think a transition episode could have worked, but I know what you mean about it being hard to explain.  Maybe it's because the two versions of the character are almost polar opposites.  Young Bae actually had somewhat of a hero complex that Snow and Charming have... sacrifice yourself to save someone else, while that completely doesn't fit with what Emma's ex was supposed to have done.  Unless it was REALLY well set up, and August showing a typewriter with "I know you are Baelfire" was not well set up.  Now if Neal had been Emma's ex and Henry's father and not Baelfire, and he comes to Storybrooke, and then slowly discovers the magic, that could have been interesting.  As angelwoody said, he definitely looks like he's "of this world".

[Camera One]

I was looking at that title of the thread posted for the S4 premiere, called "A Tale of Two Sisters", and I wondered what if that episode was actually about Regina and Zelena, and the "Frozen" stuff was just a red herring?  

 

Seriously speaking though, what if Season 4 was all about Oz and the introduction of the Wicked Witch, while the entire Season 3 just used Peter Pan as the only villain.

 

Granted, I was personally sick of Peter Pan by "Going Home" and I was glad to see the last of him.  But I think 3B could have continued him as the villain.  For example, they could have let him succeed in recasting the curse in "Going Home".  Way back in S1, I did not expect them to end the Curse so soon, and I expected Season 2 to be Emma leading an underground movement against Regina, helping people to regain their memories.

 

They could have done that in 3B instead.  So in "Going Home", Rumple would make a sacrifice of some sort which would implement Emma as the Saviour again without Peter Pan's knowledge, so when the Curse was recast, Emma could gradually get everyone's memories back and then overthrow Peter Pan.  Alternatively, they could have Peter Pan enact the Curse, and Rumple allows all the main protagonists to remember their identities, and then we could have a few Peter Pan-free episodes where he goes back to Neverland (his guard now down) to complete unfinished business, and Emma and the Gang would set up a trap to defeat Peter Pan upon his return.  This would prevent all that setup they had to do in 3B to establish Zelena as a character, so time could instead focus on the actual main characters.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

Oh, Peter Pan could definitely have been a season-long Big Bad (in fact, the friend I watch the show with is still stunned they blew through Neverland in a half-season). I was sick of him by the end, but it's because, much like Zelena, all he did was yap for 95% of his screentime. With better writing, Pan could've been a great villain. Kay certainly has the chops.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Oh, Peter Pan could definitely have been a season-long Big Bad (in fact, the friend I watch the show with is still stunned they blew through Neverland in a half-season). I was sick of him by the end, but it's because, much like Zelena, all he did was yap for 95% of his screentime. With better writing, Pan could've been a great villain. Kay certainly has the chops.

Very, very much so. I think every major store arc has this problem. Season 1's arc could have lasted two if not three seasons if it were more like what Camera One said. 2A's Cora arc could have lasted all season if they hadn't killed her off so fast. Even 3B would've held out a whole twenty-two episodes if the Missing Year had gotten the screen time and depth it deserved!

[Mathius]

Oh, Peter Pan could definitely have been a season-long Big Bad (in fact, the friend I watch the show with is still stunned they blew through Neverland in a half-season). I was sick of him by the end, but it's because, much like Zelena, all he did was yap for 95% of his screentime. With better writing, Pan could've been a great villain. Kay certainly has the chops.

See, I think he WAS a great villain (certainly better than anything we got in S2), so I really don't get the complaints about Pan's writing at all. Of course he "yaps", he's a psychological menace, that's the whole point. Words are his main weapon and, unlike Zelena, he uses them to his advantage rather than to his disadvantage.

When you make a character with extreme reality-bending power like Pan (who can do literally anything he imagines), you need a good excuse as to why he doesn't just use it to kill the heroes quickly and easily, and Pan has a good excuse: that isn't any FUN. Pan is addicted to games, he has been since he was Malcolm, and since he's so smug that he'll win in the end anyway, he wants to draw out the "playtime" for all it's worth.

Very, very much so. I think every major store arc has this problem. Season 1's arc could have lasted two if not three seasons if it were more like what Camera One said. 2A's Cora arc could have lasted all season if they hadn't killed her off so fast. Even 3B would've held out a whole twenty-two episodes if the Missing Year had gotten the screen time and depth it deserved!

Disagree with S1; the curse premise would have worn thin if it went beyond one season, plus everyone was expecting it to last the whole show, so breaking it in the first season finale was a bold move. It was bringing magic to town that, in retrospect, was probably a mistake. Edited September 27, 2014 by Mathius

[stealinghome]

Disagree with S1; the curse premise would have worn thin if it went beyond one season, plus everyone was expecting it to last the whole show, so breaking it in the first season finale was a bold move. It was bringing magic to town that, in retrospect, was probably a mistake.

I do agree that breaking the curse in the S1 finale was a really bold and audacious (in the non-Regina sense...) move, and it certainly created what remains the show's best string of episodes to date (1x15 to 1x22). With the way the series has progressed (cough gone downhill), I would never ever want to lose that stretch of episodes. However, I do think a guerilla-warfare-against-Regina plot could have been really effective in S2. I agree that the curse had worn thin by the end of S1, but it's because the writers never really let Emma's feelings on the curse unfold in a natural way, imo. They kept artificially stalling her out to prolong the curse until the end of the season. (Seriously, S1 makes so much more sense when you realize Emma was supposed to break the curse around 1x16, originally.) An organically-paced second season, with various characters remembering and joining the resistance and having the curse crack bit by bit, could've been really interesting, not least because a slow rolling-out of the memories might well have forced the writers to deal with the emotional fallout of the curse.* And there was enormous potential in only half the characters remembering their true selves. Imagine Charming remembering but Mary Margaret not, for example. Archie remembering but Gepetto not. Ruby remembering but Granny and Mary Margaret not. Grumpy but not Nova, or any of the other dwarves. Imagine Emma having to interact with David Nolan and Mary Margaret know they're her parents; imagine how that would have changed once Charming remembered (but Snow didn't). Etc. I honestly am sad we never got to see this. So much potential.

 

That all said, bringing magic to town--at least so soon--was DEFINITELY a mistake, one of the show's biggest two or three, in the grand scheme of things. I will always maintain that breaking the curse wasn't the problem; it was how the show dealt (or didn't deal) with the fallout and rebooting the series at the start of S2 that was the problem.

 

*=All this is said with the caveat that it would have required a 500% stronger writing staff, of course.

[KingOfHearts]

Just tossing it out there, but perhaps Emma or David could have believed/rememberd half-way through S1. The latter half of the season could have been the underground against Regina. David would have been the perfect character to remember, imo. That's drama gold.

 

The mileage varies, but S1 lagged considerably in the middle. The Kathryn murder wasn't too exciting for me because it was obvious who did it. It felt like a major derail from the curse and Emma plots. The main plot sort of dropped itself then spiked like crazy in the last few episodes.

Edited September 27, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

Just tossing it out there, but perhaps Emma or David could have believed/rememberd half-way through S1. The latter half of the season could have been the underground against Regina. David would have been the perfect character to remember, imo. That's drama gold.

The week before the S1 season finale, I was convinced that the finale twist was going to be Charming remembering, and the first half of S2 was going to be him and Emma teaming up to try to help everyone else remember. That could have been a great storyline, not least because it would've given the show the Charming/Emma bonding it really needed much earlier.

 

The mileage varies, but S1 lagged considerably in the middle.

Definitely. By and large 1x09-1x14 were snoozers. You can tell they were just killing time in Storybrooke.

[Mathius]

I agree that the curse had worn thin by the end of S1, but it's because the writers never really let Emma's feelings on the curse unfold in a natural way, imo. They kept artificially stalling her out to prolong the curse until the end of the season. (Seriously, S1 makes so much more sense when you realize Emma was supposed to break the curse around 1x16, originally.)

One of A&E's earliest "WTF?" statements was that they held off until the end for the curse to break because "Emma's journey to belief had to feel earned." To which I reply: how was it earned? She literally was no closer to belief in 1x21 than she was in 1x01, crying out "Henry, this isn't a story!" There was no "journey to belief", she just suddenly believed in 1x22.

That said, while her belief should have had a journey, the curse breaking in 1x22 was still the right call. Breaking it in 1x16 would have been terrible, since we saw in S2 what happens when they pull a finale-worthy event in just the 16th episode.

That all said, bringing magic to town--at least so soon--was DEFINITELY a mistake, one of the show's biggest two or three, in the grand scheme of things.

What are the other biggest?

All this is said with the caveat that it would have required a 500% stronger writing staff, of course.

But the show DOES have a strong writing staff...at least, in terms of the non-A&E writers. It's just a sad fact that a strong writing staff can't do much when their bosses are weak, because at the end of the day their bosses call the shots on what goes into a final script.

Definitely. By and large 1x09-1x14 were snoozers. You can tell they were just killing time in Storybrooke.

1x09, 1x11, and 1x13 were lame, but I liked 1x10, 1x12 and 1x14 (the latter two are probably the most beloved and most reviled episodes of the season, but I never got the hate for 1x14 beyond the weirdness of the fairyback...if anything, we could use more episodes that have plots like its Storybrooke one, where it's all about characters developing, bonding and just living life.)

Edited September 27, 2014 by Mathius

[Jean]

But the show DOES have a strong writing staff...at least, in terms of the non-A&E writers. It's just a sad fact that a strong writing staff can't do much when their bosses are weak, because at the end of the day their bosses call the shots on what goes into a final script.

I think A&E are perfectly fine as script writers. They were fine as staff on Lost and the episodes they've written for this show are above the average episodes for Once. It's their vision and plotting that sucks. Big time. As show producers they're too myopic.