S07.E06: Beyond the Wall

[Athena]

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Episode Synopsis:

Jon's mission continues north of the wall, but the odds against his ragged band of misfits may be greater than he imagined.

[janjan]

Meh. Unworthy of Alan Taylor, normally one of the best directors. Pacing sucked.

[walnutqueen]

I am gutted, yet again.

I should know better than to place my faith, or hopes, in A Show.

I'll be in mourning for Dany's child, while she gazes into Jon Snow's eyes and holds his hand (coyly conveying any consensual relations shan't be for procreation).  Blech.

I totally forgot about all the quotes and relationships I loved, and the peeps I hated, during the rest of this episode, as my mood seems to have turned.

[gingerella]

Well, too much 'oh my god is so and so dead or alive' and I just HATE the fucking pacing of A Show this season. I know, I know, I keep saying that but really, I canNOT understand how the most popular show on TV didn't have enough funding to do a full 10 episodes for the last two seasons and pacing to not be so rushed. It's just massive time continuum gaps that are so ridiculous that it takes me out of A Show entirely,  and not in a good way.  How many days wojld it take for a raven to get from the Wall to Dragonstone, then for Dany to fly to the rescue, because, yanno, she must have some sort of Dark Ages Dragon GPS to find the exact coordinates of the Scooby Snow Gang amidst the vast whiteout that is North of the Wall. FUCK YOU SHOWRUNNERS FOR FUCKING THIS SHOW UP AND WASTING MY MOTHERFUCKING TIME. There, I feel a tiny bit better. I'll reply tomorrow about actual events, but tonight A Viewer just needed to vent.

 

Oh, and now a Dragoni? Give me a fucking break showrunners.

Edited August 21, 2017 by gingerella

[ChocButterfly]

Oy, I feel you people. It's like for 6 seasons the pace has been massively sloooooow and now they just want to finish this shit. Before, it took Arya, about 2 seasons to go from  KL to some other place in the middle of Westeros. It took characters way too many episodes to get to any place near. And now in just one episode, we have the Scobby Gang get to Beyond the Wall, Gendry went back to the Wall (no explanation how he was able to find his way back in that snow!), sent a raven, who apaprently flew the ENTIRE CONTINENT in a couple of hours, then Dany went again and flew over AN ENTIRE CONTINENT again just in a few hours or so? Not to say how on earth did she know exactly where to find them. Oh, and Jon was a complete moron for not jumping into that dragon right away. What the fuck was he waiting for? Why did he have to keep fighting zombies? I thought he had stayed because he was trying to catch one, cuz maybe they lost the other one, but nope, Prisoner Zombie was already on fucking Drogon when Jon still wouldn't hop into him!!! ARGHHHH!!!! I was hoping he'd finally die, he deserved it right there for his stupidity.

And speaking of stupidity, the whole plan was stupid to begin with!!!! Why didn't just Dany and Jon fly in one of the dragons to retreat said zombie from the begining? Now, not only do we have one dragon less, we have also a freaking ZOMBIE DRAGON!!! Thanks Jon! All for what? We all know Cersei won't give 2 shits about the Dead Army, prove or not. The only thing this whole endeavor achieved was that Dany finally saw the real threat. What she said is true, you have to see it for yourself to believe it. But that could've also been achieved by flying with a dragon and seeing the army from afar. 

Also, Arya and Sansa....ugh. I can't believe Arya is so stupid to believe all that, plus she was very psychopathic there. I thought they'd both see through Littlefinger's plan. I still hope they do. And of course, Bran knows this is all happening, he knows all the angles, all the truth, he even knows Ned is dead because of LF,  but he's too busy being a Tree to care about his sisters killing each other or his House falling apart. IDIOT. 

And why didn't Jon and company made a stop at Winterfell if they were already in the neighborhood? He could've introduced the Dragon Queen and tell them all how this little lady put her own live at risk and went there by herself to save him. He could've told them how she just lost a dragon, one of her children, for them. Then he could've told them he had decided to choose her as his Queen because of all that. I think that would have rallied the North easier, plus, you know actually seeing thee dragons. 

And yes, now we know that not only Jon and Dany will do the deed, but they will also make beautiful incestuous babies together.

 What I didn't understand was the telegram from KL. Was it really from Cersei? What for? Did LF send it? Did Sansa make it up? Why? And why would she want to send Briene away, the only woman she could trust? Because she wants to get rid of Arya? Bullshit, I can't believe that! I didn't understand any of it.

The only thing I really liked about the episode was Thormund talking about Briene and the gigantic babies they will make together!!

Edit to add: Speaking about trees and Bran, he is really going to turn into one, no? I mean, Tree Eyed Raven had roots and everything, he couldn't walk. Which makes me think, that he might be Bran in a future? Like, is not that Bran took his position, but that he was Bran all along?? And Bran already cannot walk, which would make sense for the former Tree Eyed Raveen to be attached to a tree. So, is the Tree at Winterfell the one Bran will be joining?

Edited August 21, 2017 by ChocButterfly

[janjan]

1 hour ago, ChocButterfly said:

why would she want to send Briene away,

The plot demanded it. All Hail the Plot, Ruler of the Seven Kingdoms, no matter what poor mortals would ever do.

Jon didn't seem at all surprised to see Benjen ex Machina.

The horse came in handy. They never did explain what that horse has been living on up there in the Land of No Grass. Or Benjen either, although if he's "mostly dead," he probably doesn't eat much.

Isn't that First Lieutenant WW, the one who's always just behind the NK, the same one Jon smithereen'ed at Hardhome? Are they re-using WWs, like George Bush's head next to Ned's at KL?

We've never seen Arya carrying that leather pouch with the faces in it. She must have brought it/them with her, since she hasn't killed anyone at Winterfell.

I could go on . . . .

[ChocButterfly]

2 minutes ago, janjan said:

The plot demanded it. All Hail the Plot, Ruler of the Seven Kingdoms, no matter what poor mortals would ever do

Heh, probably! But I wonder why they need Briene at KL. What will be her role? 

Another thing that keeps bugging me is why is Dany so sure she cannot have any more kids? She keeps saying the dragons are the only children she'll ever have, but why?? She already got pregnant once. Just because she hasn't gotten pregnant again wih Dario, doesn't mean she can't. Heck, look at Cersei, she never got pregnant again after Tommen, and she kept sleeping with Jaimie and Lancel. I'm sure they didn't have  condoms back then. So, she never got pregnant until now....if she really is, I don't trust Cersei at all.

You know, when I saw the dragon fell dead into the water, I knew they were going to turn him into a zombie. But I wonder, will Zombie Dragon breath fire? I wouldn't think so, since it hurts the Dead. Which, another question, Dragon Fire cannot hurt the Night King? He walked right pass through it! Really?? You'd think it'd do something, since he's made  of ice, apparently. And where were the dragonglass blades? The Scooby Gang didn't seem to have them. And why didn't they bring arrrows with torches?? Jon knows fire hurts the Dead, he should've been prepared! And why didn't they light Beric's fire sword to keep them warm when they were sleeping in that rock?? And how does that sword light up every time and doesnt's turn off?? Whatever Beric put into it, they should put in all the other swords. And why didn't the Hound just keep smashing the floor with the hammer when the Dead started walking towards them?? And why didn't the Dead try to walk on the water sooner? They were there for apparently an entire night and it didn't occurred to any of the WW to test the lake before the Hound stupidly threw that rock? And why, o why don't they use hats in that cold???!

Ufff, so many questions....!

[gingerella]

12 hours ago, ChocButterfly said:

The only thing I really liked about the episode was Thormund talking about Briene and the gigantic babies they will make together!!

Edit to add: Speaking about trees and Bran, he is really going to turn into one, no? I mean, Tree Eyed Raven had roots and everything, he couldn't walk. Which makes me think, that he might be Bran in a future? Like, is not that Bran took his position, but that he was Bran all along?? And Bran already cannot walk, which would make sense for the former Tree Eyed Raveen to be attached to a tree. So, is the Tree at Winterfell the one Bran will be joining?

I like where you're going Choc, with the TER being Bran in the past, present and future, that's very interesting and I dont think we've spitballed that ever here...gotta think on that.

I used to have a lot of empathy for Sansa but now? She's a fucking twatastic moron. After allllllll she has seen and endured, and she STILL goes to LF?! JesusHChrist and the Seven on a cracker, how dumb is this broad?!? When she and LF were talking about asking Brienne to intervene, she seemed to acknowledge that Brienne would do all she could to ensure the sisters remained close and didn't turn on each other, so why the hell would she want to send Brienne away? And why the fuck would she send ANYone to KL at Cersei's beckoning when she knows damn well what a psycho, lying bitch Cersei is. DUH. You send NOone to KL until Jon is back. Or you send someone to go to Jon and confer.

I did enjoy Tormund talking about Brienne with the Hound, that? Was hilarious. I could watch that for hours!

I am beginning to steel myself for utter and total disappointment for next week and next season. I think the show runners just copped out and dont give two shits about A Show now that they have 'other projects' in the works. It's the JJ Abrams syndrome, create a stellar show and then just as it's getting good, move on to other projects and leave behind shitty writers to ruin it. We've invested like what, SEVEN fucking years on A Show, and they're just ruining it to pieces right now.

Edited August 22, 2017 by gingerella

[ChocButterfly]

4 hours ago, gingerella said:

I used to have a lot of empathy for Sansa but now? She's a fucking twatastic moron. After allllllll she has seen and endured, and she STILL goes to LF?! JesusHChrist and the Seven on a cracker, how dumb is this broad?!? When she and LF were talking about asking Brienne to intervene, she seemed to acknowledge that Brienne would do all she could to ensure the sisters remained close and didn't turn on each other, so why the hell would she want to send Brienne away

I don't know, I don't think she's actually confiding in LF. I think that's what she wants him to believe. I mean, he kind of told her to keep Briene around and she went and did exactly the opposite and sent her away. I'm not really  sure what the heck she's planning, but she's obviously planning something. That's why I'm wondering about that telegram from  King's Landing. 

Well, I do hope she's really planning something, as well as Arya. I mean, they can't both be that stupid, can they?

Edited August 21, 2017 by ChocButterfly
Typo

[Anothermi]

I sympathize with feeling let down after this episode.

It's not like I wasn't 'oh my god is so and so dead or alive' - ing along with Gingerella, or yelling No. No! NO NO NO!!!  when it was clear the Night King was going to kill a dragon....  and fully aware that it meant there would be a dragboni created. I was both caught up in the action and feeling like I was on a treadmill instead of a ride. I thought that battle would NEVER end!

And on top of that, I was channeling Hodor when it thunders or just before the WW and the zombonies swarmed the safety of The Tree Cave. I am unhappily aware that the show is lumbering to a close and I HATE when a good story ends just like I always feel let down at the end of an intensely gripping book. (OK, I usually feel that way. One or two good books have good endings.)

I don't know how much of my ambivalence to this episode comes from the latter and how much comes from the fact that battles with hordes of zombonies have never come off well in this show.

But there were some bright spots (so to speak). Especially the conversations between the members of the Band of Brooders on the trek to capture a zomboni! EEE Hah!

On 2017-08-20 at 7:24 PM, janjan said:

Meh. Unworthy of Alan Taylor, normally one of the best directors. Pacing sucked.

I don't pay attention to who directs what, so I had to look this guy up. He directed quite a lot of episodes in S01 and S02. Only one - Baelor - was a traditional penultimate episode (AKA 9th episode which I consider this current one to be given its second-to-last position). He did an exceptional job with that one. He hasn't directed a GoT episode since Valar Morghulis (S02E10). I don't understand why they gave him a big CGI/battle episode. What he excels at is the nuance of human interaction. (see Band of Brooders conversations mentioned above)

On 2017-08-21 at 8:35 AM, ChocButterfly said:

But I wonder, will Zombie Dragon breath fire? I wouldn't think so, since it hurts the Dead. Which, another question, Dragon Fire cannot hurt the Night King? He walked right pass through it! Really?? You'd think it'd do something, since he's made  of ice, apparently. And where were the dragonglass blades? The Scooby Gang didn't seem to have them. And why didn't they bring arrrows with torches?? Jon knows fire hurts the Dead, he should've been prepared! And why didn't they light Beric's fire sword to keep them warm when they were sleeping in that rock?? And how does that sword light up every time and doesnt's turn off?? Whatever Beric put into it, they should put in all the other swords. And why didn't the Hound just keep smashing the floor with the hammer when the Dead started walking towards them?? And why didn't the Dead try to walk on the water sooner? They were there for apparently an entire night and it didn't occurred to any of the WW to test the lake before the Hound stupidly threw that rock? And why, o why don't they use hats in that cold???!

There were also many more valid rants in your posts, Choc, but this one listed most of the ones I had as well.

- I, too, wondered if the dragboni would breathe fire or... what?... icicles? (ouch) That could make it one of the first weapons to combine Ice and Fire. (whichever dragon that was, clearly not important enough to recognize. Guess that one was a "red-shirt" dragon.)  Score one for the Night King. (/mild sarcasm)

- The WW walking through the fire was a repeat of something we were shown during the Door episode. I'd forgotten about it but ended up re-watching it when researching what we know about the CHoF. It seems that only dragonglass and Valyrian steel can kill WW. And now we know that all the zombonies created by an individual WW shatter to bits when HE does. It explains why the WW hang back during the battles like princesses surrounded by a protective growth of zomboni thorns. And yet your question WHY? hangs over that whole response. Unanswered.

- as for the dragonglass daggers? I think I saw Jorah pull one out (no one else) and I'm loath at this point to re-visit that scene searching for proof. Are we to assume they have some inside their coats? That's where Sam hid his.

- Berrick and Thoros' swords of fire were impressive. Especially the fact that they just passed their (gloved) hands over the blade and the Lord of Light created fire for them. Or that's my take for the present. I don't think the swords themselves create much heat and I'm damn sure that the LoL doesn't want to waste the precious fuel of the gods (more long lasting than propane) on keeping mere humans warm.

And Amen to your last two points.

- Why DIDN'T the WW test the ice sooner. Did they go into stasis overnight? - their most productive time? And riffing on that Star Trek: TNG analogy, I wonder if the other WW go by names like 7 of 9? They do seem very Borg-like now.

- Hats beyond the Wall! At least there WERE some. I thought that was progress. Gendry had head gear but it seemed to get in the way of a proper conversation. I can understand that. The only others to have head gear were the nameless, faceless, red-shirt Wildlings in the party. I initially assumed it was because they were smart... and experienced... but quickly realized that "Hat" had become equivalent to "Red Shirt". It made me very sad to see this show using that trope. There have been lots of nameless Wildlings before in this show, but they never felt so obviously like fodder as they did in this episode. (boo)

On 2017-08-21 at 5:59 AM, ChocButterfly said:

Tree Eyed Raven

High five Choc!

 

19 hours ago, ChocButterfly said:

I don't know, I don't think she's actually confiding in LF. I think that's what she wants him to believe. I mean, he kind of told her to keep Brienne around and she went and did exactly the opposite and sent her away. I'm not really  sure what the heck she's planning, but she's obviously planning something. That's why I'm wondering about that telegram from  King's Landing. 

Well, I do hope she's really planning something, as well as Arya. I mean, they can't both be that stupid, can they?

 I sure hope so too. If they spend a lot of time leading us down that path, there's got to be another one they are hiding from us. My take on the Sansa/LF conversation was that LF implied that Brienne might be convinced to kill Arya, given the right motivation. I've read things wrong before, so don't hold me to it.  Sansa may be sending her away to protect both Brienne and Arya? She repeated, often enough, that the guards and the bannermen were loyal enough to her to protect her. Perhaps she's applying LF's "know everything, plan for everything" strategy. Getting his counsel gives her one of his plans and allows her to think of alternatives. She WAS a stupid girl when Arya last saw her, but we know she understands that and has learned a great deal in the intervening years.

---------------------------------------------

Stuff I DID like:

- the first scene showed the map of where the Band of Booders were in the War Room at Dragonstone and then cut to the Band of Brooders walking in that location. Now I know it's a cool segue, but this show doesn't usually waste footage like that. I wonder if there is something that map did for the Targaryens that no one else has learned to use? Just wondering. I'm curbing my inquiring mind. If S05 made me afraid to wish for good things to happen (because I'd get the opposite), this season is making me afraid to be curious.

- Tormond/Jon discussing bending the knee. Mance impressed Jon enough to make him flip from his original argument re: bending the knee.  Mance was a former Night's Watch. Tormond is a Wildling. His take is pragmatic as was Jon's original one was. Tormond would choose to save thousands of lives at the cost of Mance's OR Jon's wounded pride. HE was not impressed with that character trait. So... Jon flops.

- Tormond discussing Brienne. Again. As laid out by Chocbutterfly.

Other things I had thoughts about:

- One sure way to tell a Primary Character from a Tertiary Character: Sam takes a ride on a ship and the weather is stormy and he is sea sick the whole way. Jon returns from almost dying in battle and even though it is winter, and in the northern seas, the ship is completely still, not even a mild rocking motion, and there is sun showing outside the ships windows. The Gods do.not.like Tertiary Characters!

- And speaking of Sam again. No matter what mode of transport he takes, his travel takes a lot longer than any of the other characters. Primary OR Tertiary.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

4 hours ago, ChocButterfly said:

I don't know, I don't think she's actually confiding in LF. I think that's what she wants him to believe. I mean, he kind of told her to keep Briene around and she went and did exactly the opposite and sent her away. I'm not really  sure what the heck she's planning, but she's obviously planning something. That's why I'm wondering about that telegram from  King's Landing. 

Well, I do hope she's really planning something, as well as Arya. I mean, they can't both be that stupid, can they?

I hope they're both not that stupid, but then again, Ned and Cat...exhibits A & B of what not to do in the realm if you wanna stay alive...

I've been thinking about this on and off all day, and I have this feeling that at the end of A Show, both remaining dragons will perish in the fight. I assume Drogon was who Dany was riding because I dont think we've ever seen her ride the other two dragons, right? So it was one of the dragonette's that sadly perished and got WW'd. Speaking of, I cant remember this...is it only the WWs that have blue eyes, and the AoTD does not have blue eyes or do they all? I thought it was only the WW...Also, it seems like we learned last night that if you kill a WW, all the dead they reanimated die instantly along with them, correct? Or at least that's what we think from last night, yes?  So they need to corral the WWs somehow to kill the AoTD en masse.

Also, Uncle Benjen, RIP.

Also, Theon...was it he who was killed by the blue eyed bear? I couldn't tell and I dont remember him being with the smaller group on the island waiting til the ice froze...If so, I suppose his suffering is over now.

And if Berrick Dondarion has been brought back to life umpteen times now, I wonder why he doesn't know how to save Thoros of Mir...that seems like something he'd have learned with the BWoB already...I wonder why only Thoros has that power. And ditto to why the fuck he couldn't light up ALL their swords...unless you have to somehow be a LoL believer, offically...?

 

Quote

Sansa may be sending her away to protect both Brienne and Arya? She repeated, often enough, that the guards and the bannermen were loyal enough to her to protect her. Perhaps she's applying LF's "know everything, plan for everything" strategy. Getting his counsel gives her one of his plans and allows her to think of alternatives. She WAS a stupid girl when Arya last saw her, but we know she understands that and has learned a great deal in the intervening years.

Anothermi, great way to view that scene and it gives me hope and a new perspective, thank you for that. I would like to believe that Sansa has learned SOMEthing from her years of horrible torture at the feet of Cersei, Joff & Ramsey. I like the notion that she got LF to tip her on to one of his plans, then she send Brienne away both to protect Arya and in a way to protect Brienne because Brienne is valuable - she is the most loyal person in Sansa's life really, and now that I look at that scene from your perspective, I wonder if Sansa became concerned that LF was trying to somehow pit Arya and Brienne against one another in a bid to take them both out at the same time, and in that way, leave Sansa completely exposed and unprotected by what are arguably the two best swords(wo)man in Winterfell at the moment. That would enable him to once again be her only counsel.

And speaking of Brienne, I wonder if her presence in KL is the way forward to Jamie to once and for all turn on Cersei, because Brienne is really the only person that we've seen able to tap into Jamie's side of what's right honorable...Hmmm...Though I really really want to see a flirty love scene with Brienne and Tormund!

Edited August 22, 2017 by gingerella

[DirewolfPup]

(Note: I just watched the episode. I haven't read any comments yet. Sorry, if I duplicate ideas. I wanted needed an unfiltered comment first. I've also been on vacation, so I didn't have as much time to comment lately.)

So my heart is broken. And I'm angry. So very angry. We lost a dragon in the worst possible way. Now, it is in the possession of the enemy. This isn't a dead dragon a la King's Landing spear. This is, for all intents, making one of the other dragons null and void. 2 vs 1, or basically one dragon advantage. They started with three.

I'm also very angry because Dany seemed to be more upset about losing Jon than loosing a dragon. She lost a child... and all she cares about is if her plot-forced-new-boyfriend is okay.

I'm glad Benjen got 30 seconds more airtime.... he's dead now. Guess that's the end of that. Another forced plot device. Contrived and does a real disservice for the actor and character.

Oh don't even get me started on Arya. Such a short-sighted brat. Sansa's making mistakes like any normal person would, like sending Brienne away or trusting Littlefinger, but her faults pale in comparison to Arya basically threatening Sansa since her second night there. She's out weirding Bran at this point.

[gingerella]

Pup, we feel your pain...

[Llywela]

So after we expended so much time and thought on wondering who the three dragon riders might eventually be, now it turns out that not only are we down to only two dragons, but Jorah, Tormund and the flipping Hound got to ride a dragon before any of the likelier prospects we suggested!

My goodness, this was a long episode. I'm never fond of lengthy battle sequences, and this one seemed like it would never end. I agree with everyone who has commented on the breakneck pace of this season - we seem to be clattering toward a final endgame at breathtaking speed of late. I thoroughly enjoyed the group dynamics of the unlikely band of wight-snatchers on their journey, however. It almost seemed like the mission was a contrivance to get that many characters from that many sub-plots all into the same place at the same time and give them an opportunity to interact!

Well, and it forced Dany into action and means she has now seen the army of the dead for herself - although if it is that quick and easy for her to fly north, surely everyone could have been saved a lot of time and effort if she'd just done that in the first place!

Also, Dany told Jon that she hasn't been called Dany since her brother died - I was like, girl, we call you that every week! Also, also, she's seen his scars now and therefore has evidence that Davos was not kidding when he said Jon had taken a dagger to the heart. She hasn't called him out on it yet, what with the almost freezing to death and all, but she's bound to say something sooner or later - it's come up too many times already to be dropped now.

Gingerella - I'm fairly certain that Theon was not on the fateful mission north of the wall, therefore remains alive and well at Dragonstone. He's been a major character for far too long to not get a proper death scene! He was not among the faceless red shirts in Jon's group. That reminds me, though, that we haven't seen any response from Dany to Theon's plea for help rescuing Yara - she was off chargrilling Lannister soldiers when he arrived with his request, and then we didn't see him last week when Jon's mission was planned, to progress his story.

DirewolfPup, it seemed pretty clear to me that Dany was devastated about losing a dragon - she was sat at Jon's bedside in tears, and those tears were not for him It's why the first thing he did when he woke up was apologise - which only made her cry all the more. That was about the dragon, not about Jon's brush with death - although she did fixate on Jon's disappearance in the immediate aftermath, probably at least in part as a distraction from that grief. The two of them are definitely falling for each other mind - I wonder how they'll react when they find out they are related!

I'm in two minds about the goings on at Winterfell. I applauded Sansa's speech about the wavering loyalties of the northern lords, because they'd struck me that way myself, last week when they were already starting to suggest that Sansa replace Jon as Warden of the North. Out of sight, out of mind, I guess - that really isn't how the feudal system is supposed to work! I'm finding the antagonistic dynamic between Sansa and Arya really hard to watch - and yet I believe it, given their history and how damaged they both are. Of course returning home and being reunited would not be a happy ending for them. Of course there would be years worth of damage and mistrust to work through. But oh, it's hard to watch - harder still because we can't really predict how it will play out, in the end.

Why on Earth is Cersei inviting people to King's Landing, anyway?

I had other thoughts, but they will have to wait - time to get ready for work, oy!

Edited August 22, 2017 by Llywela

[Anothermi]

On 2017-08-21 at 10:03 PM, DirewolfPup said:

I'm glad Benjen got 30 seconds more airtime.... he's dead now. Guess that's the end of that. Another forced plot device. Contrived and does a real disservice for the actor and character.

<<Sigh>> 100% agree, Pup.  He (probably due to his actor) has been such a dynamic character in this show despite only being in one scene with Jon and one with Ned at Winterfell (speaking parts) in the very 1st episode of the Show. Then a couple more each in episodes 2 & 3 (I may be over estimating the number). He had us on the look out for him for 5 long years and had (what felt like) a decent length sequence last season in episode 6 and a brief but informative one in episode 10 of that season.  With this last 'Benjen Ex Machina' I'd be surprised if he got 10 minutes, total, over the whole series. But STILL we awaited his return and now we mourn him. The difference between this appearance and all the others is that he felt necessary and vibrant in them and in this one he was just another Red Shirt in service to a big boring CGI battle scene. I'm thinking these kinds of scenes are better read and not seen. Truly a disservice to the actor, the character and us, the loyal viewers.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Anothermi
clarification

[janjan]

23 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

a big boring CGI battle scene

This! What made the Frying of the Lannisters last ep so gripping was that it was real! Those Dothraki actors really were standing up on the backs of galloping horses. Jeez! (I read an interview with Nickolaj who said so.) CGI zombies are BORING! And the scene went on way too long. Yawn.

[Pallas]

A dragon snuff film. 

I know we predicted that at least one of the dragons would be killed in this war. And given that the entire mission was preposterous -- as ill-executed as it was ill-conceived -- I suppose it's fitting that it ended with a sickening loss. Even that the loss come from among the rescue party Jon summoned and not the human volunteers. That it be timed to surprise the viewer and serve no good end. Gold dragon, named for Viscerys (ah, that puckish Targaryen humor), screaming and falling as Dany's brother did. 

I think this episode is best viewed as I did Sunday night: in pieces, as my cable reception cut in and out. I was swept from setting to setting like a season 7 hero. So I missed Jon's sending Gendry away, but popped up in Winterfell long enough to hear that Cersei had gamely sent out yet more invitations, then zoomed to Dragonstone to see Dany mount Drogon against Tyrion's passionate arguments and believed she was headed to King's Landing (I was too frazzled from re-booting to take note of her Lara's-Themed travel togs). And so I was amazed -- after I lost the feed again, then was re-materialized beyond the Wall -- to see Dany and the dragons appear over the heads of our desperate happy few: Dunkirk on Ice! 

The cable feed held from then on. I guess I'm glad. I wouldn't have wanted to wait until watching after midnight to see Viscerion's body sink below the ice and then be hauled up by its killer like a whale to be rendered, only worse. It was enough to get my first look at the Stark Sisters doing the Cleganes one better.

It seems we must torture the Starks with each other now. I agree with Llywela that the sisters' renewed estrangement and heightened suspicion makes sense. These are two people who bring out the worst in each other, and the world did the rest. But must Arya come across like Ramsay (to the viewers, not just to Sansa)? Must Sansa seem as cagey as Littlefinger? Why are both Stark sisters working so hard to fool us? To surprise us, yes, but A Show used to know how to surprise us with moments where the characters revealed themselves. Surprise us in a way that added to our understanding of the world -- our world -- and opened possibilities. Surprise us with what we hadn't known we knew, so that we were moved to feel not "YES!!!" but "Yes..." 

[janjan]

Most wondrous post, Pallas! I can only bow before your Bran'ish insights, gleaned despite the LF'ish chaos of your cable feed.

PS - We also lost Thoros of Myr.

 

2 hours ago, Pallas said:

[Dany's]  Lara's-Themed travel togs

Hee! With a pun, too! [Doffs cap, pulls on forelock.]

The evolution of Dany's wardrobe has been telling, though we mustn't ask where she's getting all that stuff on the deserted rock that is Dragonstone. She began in S1 as a timid mousie togged in palest robin's-egg blue. As she progressed through the stages of bartered bride, beloved consort, and then Breaker of Chains, her dresses got darker and darker blue. When she became the invader, the fryer of all she surveys, she's suddenly wearing black. But when she flies to rescue her Googly-ee, she's in bridal white. Hmmm. What will she wear to meet Cersei? Blood red?

Speaking of mustn't ask, where did the AotD get those big-mutha chains?

Edited August 23, 2017 by janjan

[Llywela]

2 minutes ago, janjan said:

Speaking of mustn't ask, where did the AotD get those big-mutha chains?

And how did they get them on the dragon - zombies don't swim, do they? We've seen them avoid water before, and none crawled out of the water here. But maybe they are still actively zombie-ing underwater and when the chains were dropped down there, they knew what to do? In which case, why not grab on and get hauled out with the dragon? Ah, so many questions...

[Anothermi]

7 hours ago, Pallas said:

That it be timed to surprise the viewer and serve no good end. Gold dragon, named for Viscerys (ah, that puckish Targaryen humor), screaming and falling as Dany's brother did. 

You must have better resolution than I do because although I know the names of the Dragons (and when I forget I visit the Character Index - all praise to Nymeria and her ancestor Max Taco of TWoP), Drogon is the only one I can tell apart from the others. That may be because Drogon plays a bigger role in A Show. in this season's depictions of the dragons flying about they all look the same colour to me.  It took the close up view for me to reconfirm that Drogon really WAS black. I had to search my memory for when Dany emerged from Drogo's funeral pyre and what I remember seeing was a red-ish, a green-ish and a yellow-ish baby dragon. Of course my memory can't be trusted (hence the obsessive researching). I see red webbing in Drogon's wings now, so that might be why I remember red. And if you say Viserion is Gold (and I believe you) then the yellowish memory seems accurate. But I've seen nothing greenish in any dragon which would distinguish it as Rheegal.  Have you seen a colour for the third dragon?

Too bad I'm unable to see their colours because that would have given me something with which to individualize the dragons. That would have made Viserion's demise that much more poignant. Of the two non-Drogon dragons I got a sense that one was the smallest and least dominant and I believe that one is Viserion. (They all breath fire and are very scary so all present a dominating front.) It truly IS puckish Targaryen humour that he would be the one ensnared by the Night King. Will he be ignorant and spitefull under the thrall of the Night King as well?

But, thinking about Viserys - the Easily Conquered - I believe @ChocButterfly 's spitball: that Bran will warg one of the Dragons, is still viable and clinging to the Spitball Wall for dear life. It could be the zombonified dragon!

At some point Bran's story arc has got to pay off. Of course I am preparing to be disappointed when (or if) it does.

[Anothermi]

5 hours ago, janjan said:

The evolution of Dany's wardrobe has been telling, though we mustn't ask where she's getting all that stuff on the deserted rock that is Dragonstone.

Hee! I noticed that about Cersei's wardrobe too, but it makes sense that she has access to designers and sewing experts in King's Landing. 

I've wondered where Dany's been getting her wardrobe from and have decided it has to be members of her Dothraki retainers. I'm sure she's put a stop to the drinking and raping which was their go-to down time mode on Essos. So keeping them busy with design and needle work allows them to be productively engaged until it's time to have more fun Killing.  ;-)

[gingerella]

44 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

But, thinking about Viserys - the Easily Conquered - I believe @ChocButterfly 's spitball: that Bran will warg one of the Dragons, is still viable and clinging to the Spitball Wall for dear life. It could be the zombonified dragon!

At some point Bran's story arc has got to pay off. Of course I am preparing to be disappointed when (or if) it does.

I was thinking about this as well...perhaps Bran wargs into the dragoni and takes over and turns him against the AoTD and the WWs, or just hones, in the WWs and takes them out in one fell swooop, thus taking out the entire AoTD since we have now learned that mass reduction in forces can occur if one takes out the WW who turned those dead into zombonies.

And just because I cannot bear to figure out where this hidden in the pat seasons, there are three levels of baddies in the north, yes?

1. WWs - who are the leaders who can turn the dead into

2. Wights - who the WWs turn themselves, and who have blue eyes but aren't quite WWs???

3. AoTD - dead who are raised up to be dead/undead, sort of, those decomposing corpses traipsing about pulling the dragon out of the ice water, and whom form the bulk of this ridiculous, silly CGI AoTD.

Am I correct on the above? I think that WWs can only make another WW from a living being, like the babies that they were getting from Craster's Creepy Den of Incestuous Baby Making, yes? But a WW can create a Wight from a newly dead/dead person, and that's when their eyes go blue, correct?  I seem to remember at the Battle of Hardhome, the WWs didn't touch anyone per se to reanimate the dead, instead, they either just popped up undead, or the Night King lifted his hands and they rose up reanmiated. That seems very different from Wights. God, I wish this part of A Show was less unbelieveable because while the CGI team probably thinks they nailed it, they really suck at this stuff. Seriously.

[janjan]

44 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

At some point Bran's story arc has got to pay off. Of course I am preparing to be disappointed when (or if) it does.

Yeah, well maybe  . . . .  Right now, he's just doing forward recon. I was struck that Jon showed no great surprise at the sudden appearance of Benjen ex Machina. But I was downright gob-smacked when Jon got Bran's raven and announced to the folks at Dragonstone that Bran had seen the AotD marching on Eastwatch. Huh? Jon hasn't seen Bran since S1 when he  left for the Wall. He doesn't know about the Journey of the Bran Muffins and Root Dude and all that stuff. Yet he accepts the report like it it's just another memo at the office. Come on, Show.

Who will tell Jon who his parents were, Bran or Sam?

[Anothermi]

10 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Am I correct on the above?

Not quite correct but I can see how you deduced the three categories. At Hardhome, when the Night King just raised his hands to re-animate the newly dead Wildlings we saw the eyes of a few pop open and reveal the ice-blue colour. I think we are supposed to accept that is what happens to all the re-animated dead. Wight is just another name, like Zomboni - only with a longer history of use, for the re-animated dead. So that makes only two categories. The WW and the Wights/Zombonies. I suppose the confusion is because making large groups of dead - whatever their state of decomposition - have ice-blue eyes is just too much CGI to bother with so we end up seeing hordes of Wights without blue eyes.

Benjen  is  was the third category of not-living creatures in the north. He too was dead, but never got blue-eyed. He's not a trend follower that Benjen. Plus, he's not one of the Baddies.

[Anothermi]

On 2017-08-23 at 3:00 PM, janjan said:

Jon hasn't seen Bran since S1 when he  left for the Wall.

The scene where they talk about that ravengram from Bran (via Maester Wolken I must add if you recall the Maester's discussion at the Citadel) starts with Jon semi- incredulously stating that he thought both Bran and Arya were dead! but both are now at Winterfell and Bran knows the AotD are marching on Eastwatch. Dany tries to sound up beat about the return of Jon's siblings but Jon is reacting to the sub-text.

Unimaginable things are happening. He's seen and fought with both White Walkers and re-animated dead. He's recently seen long-thought-extinct Dragons up close and personal. He's been brought back from the Dead FFS! Of course he's gonna believe Bran knows what he is talking about. Hell, he may believe both Bran and Arya have come back from the dead like he did.

No need for warm fuzzy reunions for the King in the North. He's got to save the world as he knows it. 

Edited August 24, 2017 by Anothermi
spelling

[gingerella]

Thanks Anothermi for the clarification. HEY CGI PEOPLE, CONTINUITY CALLED...IT WANTS ALL THE DEAD TO HAVE BLUE EYES, MMMKAY?!? On last thing, do we think there are only like a handful of WWs and shit ton of dead zombonies, or are there a lot of WWs we haven't seen? Since they dont seem able to procreate and need a live human baby to turn into a WW, it would stand to reason there are a limited number of them somewhere, or do we think it's just the few guys hanging with NK dude?

Now, on to Bran, I didn't think of that Janjan but you're right, Jon talked about Bran's vision as if he knew all about Bran's powers and what he is now. I dont recal Mel telling Jon anything about Bran so how would he know...so weird that the writers were that lax with something that important.

I think that it might not be Sam that tells Jon about his parentage, but rather it might be that somehow they're talking about something and Gilly recalls what she's read and tells him/them, because it didn't seem to register with Sam when she was talking about it. Unless Sam hears someone talking about it - perhaps Dany - and hears the names R+L and recalls what Gilly said.

Lastly, I could swear Theon was with Jon's group, but he was not with them on that island when Dany flew in...Am I hallucinating? Where is he?

[janjan]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

I could swear Theon was with Jon's group, but he was not with them on that island when Dany flew in...Am I hallucinating?

Whatcha been smokin', Ging? It was Jon + Gendry, and Beric + Thoros + Houndie, and Tormund. Were there some red shirts, too? Definitely not Theon.

[WhiteStumbler]

This episode made it rain on my face twice.

Once for a CGI character arcing across a grey sky to it's cold watery death. The horror of it, to go from living the equivalent of a dragon dream life (flying! and flaming!), to crashing to the ground just gutted me.

Once for Dany's reaction. I saw that some others weren't impressed with her performance, by the scene between her and Jon hit me right in the feels.

[Anothermi]

16 minutes ago, WhiteStumbler said:

Once for Dany's reaction. I saw that some others weren't impressed with her performance, by the scene between her and Jon hit me right in the feels.

She was trying to be stoical, but she was crying on the inside.

[Anothermi]

1 hour ago, janjan said:

Whatcha been smokin', Ging? It was Jon + Gendry, and Beric + Thoros + Houndie, and Tormund. Were there some red shirts, too? Definitely not Theon.

And Jorah. He came with the Dragonstone contingent too.  But we haven't seen Theon since the Lannister BBQ episode (no, he wasn't there either).

[DirewolfPup]

So we learned in this episode that when a WW is killed, all the re-animated Wights/Zombies/Blue-Eyed Mavens that were re-animated by that WW are destroyed.  Why in the 7 gods haven't we seen this phenomenon yet?

Jon killed a WW during the battle at Hardhome. That particular WW wasn't the Night King, but he was leading the battle and very prominent member of the WW social hierarchy if memory serves. When Jon killed him, one would expect dozens if not hundreds of dead to drop. None did.

*****Beware: Math Tangent Below*****

This is the third WW death that we've seen. (1. Sam killed one, 2. Jon killed the one at hardhome, 3. Jon killed one this episode). So how many dead got lost for those three killings? Couple hundred maybe. There does seem to be quite a few WW out there. Let's try some messy math. Some of the women at Craster's compound were in their 30's. Some may be older than that, but lets assume 35 was the max age of his daughters. WW must be adults from what we've seen. They WW the babies, but we don't know if the WW have a development rate into adulthood that humans have. I'll be generous and say that a freshly WW baby turns into a full-on WW in 10 years. All active WW come from Craster's WW'ed babies. Women can't have kids until they're 15 or so. This gives us 20 good years of WW production. So half of the WW hoard is children, half is adults. If we assume Craster had two sons a month for the 10 years, that's 240 WW. I made way too many assumptions to be comfortable declaring this a sure number, but it's a starting point.

*****Math Tangent Cleared******

It was the Night King himself that re-animated the dragon, yes? If so, we could have a long time before the ice dragon goes down. The Night King re-animated everything. He's the original WW I think. If that's true, he should not fight in any battles if his was smart. Actually, it would be better if he sent out a few generals and just hid in a tree somewhere. If he goes down, they all go down. He shouldn't show up to any of these things at all. Also, it should be noted that baby Sam (and Gilly) are related to a hoard of WW. Let that sink in....

All the WW are related because they grew from Craster's incest sons.  Was Craster a descendant of the Night King? Why else would they insist on all the babies coming from the same guy?  Are there other Crasters around the vast north that also sacrificed their babies that we don't know about? How did Craster set up this arrangement? WW don't speak. Did he just offer his sons unprovoked and the Night King was like "huh? Ya know... I could build an army with those. I could really use a comeback. Winter is coming, ya bastards! The North will rise again!"

I'm also a bit bitter because the WW only wanted sons and therefore all WW are "male." But that's another tangent.

[gingerella]

Holy Seven, Old Gods and New, Pup, that's alot of hypothesizing you got there my friend, and I'm loving every minute of it!

First, let us marinate on the relationship between Gilly, Baby Sam and the WWs...Ho.Lee.Shit. I did not think of this at all but you're right, they are in a way, related. I dont remember what happened to all of Craster's wimin folk when their homestead got overrun...did they all die? I seem to remember fire but was everyone there that died burned afterward? I cant remember. Annyway, interesting...but I'm not sure how it would play out when the NK shows up, other than Baby Sam should have been a WW...but I doubt he's got any particular power within him because it seemed like they were all just sweet little in-bred babies with only one branch on their family tree but other than that, unremarkable. At least from what we know of A Show. Let's assume Gilly had at least one other baby boy that was given to the WWs, what would that mean? Would that WW recognize her as his mother and suddenly warm up? I am doubting that.

Pup, you say that all the WWs are related because they came from Craster's sons, but we dont know that for sure, do we?

I still take issue with HOW the NK, assuming he is the original WW that the CHoF created (the dude tied to that tree and stabbed with dragon glass), how he created more WWs. I dont think he did. The CHoF explained, IIRC, that they created "the WWs to fight the First Men" who were taking over their forests or whatever...It seems like they made a small army of them, not just the one. So how the WWs then gained the power to self create makes no sense to me. It's like creating a robot and suddenly there is a robot army trying to take over the world but where was the jump from being a creation to becoming a creator? That said, the different between my somewhat flawed example and WWs is that the WWs originate from mankind, and thus, perhaps there is some way that their human-ness enables them to overcome and retake their own agency for decision making and so on, thus creating the opportunity for them to figure out how to create mroe WWs. BUT...It seems that to make them originally, the WWs had to me men who were alive and then stabbed with dragon glass - though I assume there was some additional magic added to that action. However, when the WWs create their own, they dont stab the babies with dragon glass, they only touch them on their forehead with their nasty pointer fingernail. Uch. AND...if dragon glass created them, why does it also destroy them? And what is it about Valyrian steel that destroys them. It must be something connected to DRAGONS, yes? Because dragon glass was a key ingredient to create them AND destroy them. And now they have an actual dragoni so...what up with that?

[Pallas]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

First, let us marinate on the relationship between Gilly, Baby Sam and the WWs...Ho.Lee.Shit. I did not think of this at all but you're right, they are in a way, related.

In every way. The White Walkers are sons of Craster by one or another of his daughters. Both baby Sam and Gilly are half-siblings to the White Walkers on their father's side -- Craster, in each instance -- and cousins on their mothers'.  Two White Walkers themselves may be full brothers or the same half-brother/cousin hybrid, depending on the mother. 

[DirewolfPup]

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

First, let us marinate on the relationship between Gilly, Baby Sam and the WWs...Ho.Lee.Shit. I did not think of this at all but you're right, they are in a way, related. I dont remember what happened to all of Craster's wimin folk when their homestead got overrun...did they all die? I seem to remember fire but was everyone there that died burned afterward? I cant remember. Annyway, interesting...but I'm not sure how it would play out when the NK shows up, other than Baby Sam should have been a WW...but I doubt he's got any particular power within him because it seemed like they were all just sweet little in-bred babies with only one branch on their family tree but other than that, unremarkable. At least from what we know of A Show. Let's assume Gilly had at least one other baby boy that was given to the WWs, what would that mean? Would that WW recognize her as his mother and suddenly warm up? I am doubting that.

I'm not suggesting that the mere presence of a half-sibling will solve the world. It's just a bizarre thing to ponder. I'm now wondering if they can use their blood or some such thing a la Gendry to thwart them.  What is the opposite of King's Blood?  Death's Blood. Can they kill the usurper "Night King" like they did for Papa Greyjoy, Robb, and Joffrey using drops of Baby Sam's blood?

[Anothermi]

3 hours ago, DirewolfPup said:

Jon killed a WW during the battle at Hardhome. That particular WW wasn't the Night King, but he was leading the battle and very prominent member of the WW social hierarchy if memory serves. When Jon killed him, one would expect dozens if not hundreds of dead to drop. None did.

Yes, that is a bit annoying. But I think we are only shown what the WW are capable of at the time our fallible hero's figure out what they are capable of. So, if it didn't happen at Hardhome it would be because none of our characters realized it was happening. A lot of zombonies were dying/being killed in that battle.

This time, Jon, or one of the others (can't remember) described what had happened after the WW (with that reconnaissance team) was smote by Jon and the Band of Brooders watched all their prey disappear before their eyes. I expected them all to turn to Jon and whine "Whatcha do that for?" Luckily for them there was one with them that had been turned by a different WW.

I, for one, am glad the show assumed that we Know Nothings wouldn't get that bit so had it explained. I know I wouldn't have understood without the words being said.

[janjan]

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

I dont remember what happened to all of Craster's wimin folk when their homestead got overrun...did they all die?

IIRC, a bunch of them survived. And Chivalrous Jon wanted to take them back to Castle Black, but they had had enough of men and wouldn't go. So they probably froze/starved when we weren't looking.

[WhiteStumbler]

5 hours ago, DirewolfPup said:

All active WW come from Craster's WW'ed babies.

I love the math, but Craster actually told Ld. Comm. Mormont how many sons he had...
Craster: You have one son, don't you, Mormont? I had my 99th. You ever meet a man with 99 sons? And more daughters than I can count.

I don't know if Baby Sam was the 99th or the 100th. Interesting. Let's hope we never see that family reunion.

I have a thought clanging around in my head about the vision that brought the Band of Brooders north to capture a ice zombie: Hound saw the vision in the flames of a mountain that "looks like an arrowhead"; BoB used that vision to go Beyond The Wall and search for an ice zombie example; they ended up near the mountain and on a frozen island; the result was a zombie ice dragon. Could it have been a trap? Could the King of the WWs have planted that vision to lure the BoB into the real north knowing that Dany would have to fly to the rescue and that he could take down one of the dragons? Those spears seem really convenient. As is the (poor, dead) dragon falling into a lake so as to immediately douse the flames that might otherwise consume his body. The more I think about it, the more worried I become.

ETA: Remember the dragon shadow over Kings Landing that Bran saw in his vision at the weirwood tree in Season 4? What if that is the shadow of a zombie dragon?!?
YIKES!!!

Edited August 24, 2017 by WhiteStumbler

[Rocinante]

6 hours ago, DirewolfPup said:

 

I'm also a bit bitter because the WW only wanted sons and therefore all WW are "male." But that's another tangent.

Loved your post. But isn't the boy thing just craster wanting to get rid of males? The WW could have another supply somewhere else.

[Anothermi]

All hail WhiteStumbler and your Ponderous Tome of Relevant GoT Quotes.

Did Craster have this conversation before or after Jon saw him deliver the last boy to the WW? If so, then Li'l Sam may be #100 son. The one that got away. Or not. I just remembered that Rast (one of the nasty turncoat Night's Watch who was such a bully to Sam) was ordered by Main Gross NW Turncoat to take a newly born baby boy and leave him out where Craster put his other sons. So, Li'l Sam is still the one who got away, but not a symbolic #100.

As for the Night King using his connection with Bran (the marked arm we saw when the 3ER.01 told Bran the NK had "touched" him. Bran pulled up his sleeve - which is what the NK had actually touched - and there were marks on his arm): that is something interesting to ponder.

<< diving into the pond - er >>

Back in S01 we saw symbols (of body parts) whenever the WW had been somewhere. I recognized many of these symbols as ones that Jon showed Danny on the cave walls at Dragonstone. Each time the symbol is bigger as the WW power to control the Dead increases.

When Bran was shown the Creation of the First White Walker in a vision, I was struck by the symbolic design made of stones ranged around the Weirwood tree. They showed a brief overhead view of the spot. Yet, after that we started seeing the Night King perform bigger, more impressive acts of taking control of The Dead. Benjen had been gotten early enough that time was required for him to be "turned".  That gave the CHoF a brief window to save Benjen from becoming a wight. Hardhome showed us the NK had the power to "turn" masses all at once and by just mental control.

(side bar: so destroying HIM should substantially reduce the AotD but I somehow doubt he's as easy to destroy as Craster's spawn)

Until now, only human and equine dead have been recruited into the AotD but this episode we got an early sign that larger creatures could be "turned" in the form of the huge bear. That, IMHO, was so we wouldn't be incredulous when the Night King "turned" the dragon. His biggest catch yet.

The question I had re: your spitball about acquiring the dragon by strategy, Stumbler, was would the Night King even be aware of their existence?

I'm doubtful that the NK has the sight that Bran has. He knows when Bran is near, but I'm not convinced he is aware of other things happening in the world. I referenced the Borg earlier because the Night King seems to be able to communicate with his Lieutenants wordlessly, and with the dead wordlessly (and over great distances). I had previously speculated that the NK had learned how to warg after the raising of the dead at Hardhome, but that hasn't been illustrated in any other way so I'm leaning toward the Borg theory.  (Warg...Borg... at least they rhyme!)

Bran has been touched by the NK so a link has been established regarding his whereabouts. I presume the Night King knows Bran is physically on the other side of the Wall (and its strong magic), but he was able to sense him in the murder of crows. That makes the ritual we saw after the last Craster baby was taken - where the Night King "touched" the baby with his nasty pointer fingernail (™ Gingerella) - a probable clue to how the babies become connected to the WW collective.

Now, what Bran needs is to do is reverse engineer that process so he, too, can be linked-in to the WhiteWalker Wifi network and listen in on their communications. BUT that could mean the Night King could learn to see what Bran sees! Oh my! NK doesn't seem to have that ability now, but he's a fast learner. <cue future big boring CGI battle>

Edited August 25, 2017 by Anothermi
spelling & found better word for system

[Anothermi]

1 hour ago, Rocinante said:

Loved your post. But isn't the boy thing just craster wanting to get rid of males? The WW could have another supply somewhere else.

Welcome to the Unsullied Habitat, Rocinante. Great shout out to Don Quixote.

It's been a long time since we've had a new recruit. You're joining late in the saga. You must be weary from the long trek you've endured to get here. Would love to know more about what lured you to the Spitball Wall (our slang term for the members of the Unsullied posters). Please grab a grog and head over to the Small Talk lounge where we can meet you properly and answer any questions you may have about our strange ways (and language) around these parts.

May you have good fortune in the Spitballs to Come!

Edited August 24, 2017 by Anothermi
spelling, as usual

[WhiteStumbler]

45 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

Did Craster have this conversation before or after Jon saw him deliver the last boy to the WW?

It was at the beginning of the scene where Craster and Mormont were both killed by the NW, so it was after Jon saw Craster leave one son to the WWs, but two more sons were born after that - Gilly's and the one we watched getting "turned" after getting put outside on the orders of the Fooking Legend of Gin Alley. I don't know if Craster knew that Gilly had a boy when he was counting. He knew she was in labor, but other than that...?

Yeah, I am thinking that my Ice King - LoL connection spitball is unlikely. Momentary lapse of reason.

53 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

Until now, only human and equine dead have been recruited into the AotD

And giants.

[Anothermi]

7 minutes ago, WhiteStumbler said:

And giants.

* sob *  Yes, and giants, but I count him as human.  But he was a precursor of the bigger game the Night King was hunting.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Anothermi

[Anothermi]

2 hours ago, WhiteStumbler said:

ETA: Remember the dragon shadow over Kings Landing that Bran saw in his vision at the weirwood tree in Season 4? What if that is the shadow of a zombie dragon?!?
YIKES!!!

Oh.... all the amazing possibilities still in play.  Enjoy them while we can.

[gingerella]

All this speculation re: the NK is great but...it really is a story telling weak link that we are this far into A Show and we still dont know WHY the WWs are hell bent on killing every living being in their path. What would they possibly gain in doing that? And what will they do once Summer Comes Again?

[Anothermi]

45 minutes ago, gingerella said:

and we still dont know WHY the WWs are hell bent on killing every living being in their path.

At the rate so many of our other mysteries are being cleared up/explained, I'm just glad we have something left to speculate about.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Anothermi

[Pallas]

On 8/21/2017 at 11:17 AM, janjan said:

All Hail the Plot, Ruler of the Seven Kingdoms, no matter what poor mortals would ever do.

Brava, janjan. Plot and its consort, Action-Adventure of House Franchise. Words: Who cares?

We are kind, I think, to overlook the plot absurdities of this last Ice Capade and move back into the world-building of the previous six years to construct a coherent base and direction for the current storylines. Kind to ourselves. So in that generous spirit, and reaching back to the earlier part of the thread...

 

On 8/21/2017 at 1:08 PM, gingerella said:

When she and LF were talking about asking Brienne to intervene, she seemed to acknowledge that Brienne would do all she could to ensure the sisters remained close and didn't turn on each other, so why the hell would she want to send Brienne away?

Not that Brienne would ensure that the sisters remain close, but (as Littlefinger spelled out, pointedly) that if one sister meant to do the other any harm, Brienne "would be honor-bound to intervene."  

 

On 8/21/2017 at 9:52 PM, Anothermi said:

My take on the Sansa/LF conversation was that LF implied that Brienne might be convinced to kill Arya, given the right motivation. I've read things wrong before, so don't hold me to it.  Sansa may be sending her away to protect both Brienne and Arya? She repeated, often enough, that the guards and the bannermen were loyal enough to her to protect her. Perhaps she's applying LF's "know everything, plan for everything" strategy. Getting his counsel gives her one of his plans and allows her to think of alternatives.

 Agreed. I think Sansa sent Brienne away to protect her. She'd seen that Arya could best Brienne in an open fight, let alone, an ambush. (And if that proves to be true, it's the most Neddish gesture Sansa's ever made.) Or you may well be right, Anothermi: she also sent Brienne away to protect Arya from being killed on her behalf. Which would be just as Neddish of her. 

 

On 8/21/2017 at 9:52 PM, Anothermi said:

The Gods do.not.like Tertiary Characters!

And they're dicks to parents, as well. The only parents still standing have survived their children.

 

On 8/21/2017 at 9:58 PM, gingerella said:

I've been thinking about this on and off all day, and I have this feeling that at the end of A Show, both remaining dragons will perish in the fight.

I'd never imagined that, gingerella, but now that you say it...it feels right. See above: the show's a dick to parents...The rise of the White Walkers presaged the birth of the dragons. And Dany gave birth to a stillborn dragon/human hybrid a few days before she hatched the dragons. Could the extinction of the dragons be the price of defeating the White Walkers, for all time? Fire and ice?

 

On 8/22/2017 at 1:03 AM, DirewolfPup said:

I'm glad Benjen got 30 seconds more airtime.... he's dead now. Guess that's the end of that. Another forced plot device. Contrived and does a real disservice for the actor and character.

Agreed, and, I wish. But I'm afraid we may be seeing remnants of Benjen, Hodor and Summer again, along with Viserion. Would Benjen really not have set himself on fire, at the last, before allowing himself to be eaten and turned? 

 

On 8/23/2017 at 11:07 AM, janjan said:

What will she wear to meet Cersei? Blood red?

Queen Madder.

 

On 8/23/2017 at 6:00 PM, janjan said:

Who will tell Jon who his parents were, Bran or Sam?

Doesn't it have to be Bran? When he returned to Winterfell, his first words were, "I need to speak to Jon Snow." Although Bran always speaks in a monotone now, that statement had an element of conscious deadpan that made me laugh. And Sam or Gilly -- when he or she remembers what she read -- would only seem to know that Rhaegar and (presumably) Lyanna married, and at Dorne. Even if her pregnancy were mentioned in the Maester's  copious notes, that still wouldn't connect Jon to Lyanna. 

 

On 8/23/2017 at 4:58 PM, Anothermi said:

You must have better resolution than I do because although I know the names of the Dragons (and when I forget I visit the Character Index - all praise to Nymeria and her ancestor Max Taco of TWoP), Drogon is the only one I can tell apart from the others.

Not better resolution, harder hearing. With my cable still wonky Sunday night, I finally watched the episode in its entirety on my laptop around midnight, and turned on the closed-captioning about halfway through. Darkly amusing captions for the battle scene:  "(grunt)" every time we saw the Hound, and "(wight screeching)" as it also thrashed, including the moment the Hound secured the zomboni on the dragon by spiking it down onto one of Drogon's spines. Drogon's entrance was heralded by "(Drogon roaring") in case we had any doubt of who or what he was up to. When Viserion was hit, the caption said only "(screaming)" but as he began to fall, the shot was of Drogon "(roaring)" and then, with the shot still of Drogon against the sound of Viserion's death cries, the caption read "(Viserion screaming)".  It was awful. 

I appreciate the lizard lore but not the aesthetics of having all three dragons turn similarly dark as they aged. You remember rightly, Anothermi: they used to be easily distinguished. Drogon was always much larger and bolder than his brothers. It was hatchling-he who took the prized position on Dany's bare shoulder in their unveiling ceremony at the very end of Season 1. When Drogon was younger, we used to call him "Red Dragon" -- his wings were russet and his body had an auburn hue; he does still have red webbing on his dorsal spines, and a hint of red in his wingspan. Even in adolescence, Viserion and Rhaegal still had bright gold or green bodies as well as wings. They were even a little sparkly...When Viserion fell, burning, he extended his wings; against the leaden sky they were faintly golden. Rhaegal cried out as he followed his brother down and across the shattering ice, hovered briefly and then took off alone back toward Eastwatch. Drogon: "(roaring)."  Yet he stayed. For whom? 

Naming the golden dragon after the late "No dragon" and pretender king of A Golden Crown: that seems to me more Tyrion's mordant vein of humor than Dany's. "Fire cannot kill a dragon," said Dany once. But it was Viserys who said, "You don't want to wake the dragon." May he prove more right than she.

 

7 hours ago, gingerella said:

AND...if dragon glass created them, why does it also destroy them? And what is it about Valyrian steel that destroys them. It must be something connected to DRAGONS, yes? Because dragon glass was a key ingredient to create them AND destroy them.

More of the concept that we create our own destruction? I think this is what we know: the First Men hunted the Children and destroyed their, um, habitat and gods, the sacred trees. The Children took a First Man, bound him to one of the living beings he was destroying and thrust into his heart a knife made of minerals that line the caverns of Westeros. He then either made more of his kind, or, was joined by more created by the Children. But instead of hunting only humans, he led his troupe of future officers against both "Men" and Children.

During a break in hostilities (during a long summer, perhaps?), the more mechanically-minded of the Men built the Wall and the more magical, endowed it with Walker-Be-Gone. The surviving Children and many of the surviving humans found themselves on the wrong side of the Wall/history, while the descendants of the lucky majority came to justify this injustice by deriding their chilly cousins as savages -- Wildlings -- deservedly excluded from civilization as it grew.  

Meanwhile, Valyrian steel is forged from dragon-fire, like the Iron Throne itself. Its source and name suggest it came to Westeros with the Targayens and their dragons. Since the dragons' recent extinction, it's become an even more precious commodity, because finite: no dragons, no new Valyrian steel. But now we have two dragons and one blacksmith on Team Life. I recommend a field trip back to Highgarden to re-purpose some idle plowshares. Of course there are said to be 2,000 swords melded into the Iron Throne: Littlefinger has the exact count...

[janjan]

58 minutes ago, Pallas said:

On 8/23/2017 at 11:07 AM, janjan said:

What will she wear to meet Cersei? Blood red?

Queen Madder.

Groooooan.  :-)

[gingerella]

Pallas, dear Pallas, thank you so much for that review of what A Viewer should remember and yet does not! I forgot that Valyrian steel was forged from dragon's fire, DUH. Makes sense now.

[WhiteStumbler]

13 hours ago, Pallas said:

Meanwhile, Valyrian steel is forged from dragon-fire

Why do you think this is so? I can't find an explicit reference to dragons being necessary to make Valyrian steel. Also, it is called "Valyrian steel", not "Targaryen steel", so I assumed that it was from Valyria, which seemed volcanic (the Smoking Sea, the Doom).

If it only required dragons, couldn't the Targaryens have made more of it after the Doom?

[gingerella]

WS, what the hell is the Doom and why does this feel like the first time I'm hearing of it?!