A New Beginning: OUAT 2.0

[Mabinogia]

8 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

We would have had more time to focus on the main characters.

Who even are the main characters? I honestly have no clue. It seems to be a different show every few weeks. I mean, originally the show seemed to be about Lucy making her parents fall back in love again to break some curse while Tremaine ran the weird little neighborhood. Then it move more towards Tremaine trying to wake her one daughter while just generally hating on her other daughter. (This would have been a wonderful storyline had they made it a full season focus. The favorite child lost to an accident, the resentful child who survived growing hateful towards both the perfect child, who will always be so because she isn't conscious to make mistakes, and the mother who still ignores her for her vegetable of a sister. The surviving sister finds her powers, enacts a curse that screws over many because she was tricked and in way over her head. So much good stuff could have been written into that story. But A&E apparently got bored or something and moved on to the next story which was Gothel trying to bring back a bunch of witches? That didn't last long. Apparently the needed an angle so they then threw in a serial witch killer? But who cares because now the show is about Whook and Alice's father/daughter bond. And there was something about a food truck and some voodoo guy showed up to be evil for no real reason other than they needed another evil character because they keep redeeming them all. 

What is this season even about? 

[Camera One]

If you look at this season structurally, we're 2/3 done, they've disposed of Victoria 1/2 way through and just now escorted Drizella out the door, and now they have a new minor "villain", Nick/Hansel.  He still seems pretty irrelevant.  Or is he going to try to murder Zelena and Regina next? 

Meanwhile, we also have the questionable Dr. Facilier around.  And of course, the main villain Mother Gothel, though I'm guessing they're saving her defeat for last.

There is no urgency or momentum.  Henry isn't really in danger because no one even wants to end the Curse.  If the Curse does break, it would be because Regina/Lucy have done a shoddy job of keeping Henry away from Jacinda.

[Mabinogia]

7 minutes ago, Camera One said:

There is no urgency or momentum.  Henry isn't really in danger because no one even wants to end the Curse.  If the Curse does break, it would be because Regina/Lucy have done a shoddy job of keeping Henry away from Jacinda.

I have the same issue with this curse as I had with the original. It really doesn't seem all that bad. There was no urgency with that one and there is even less urgency with this one, since half of them already know about the curse. I think we were supposed to be worried about Henry dying or whatever if the curse was broken, but I honestly didn't care that much because 1) I knew they wouldn't kill off Henry, he's one of the few tenuous links to the original show and 2) I don't think I'd even notice if he was gone. He's just such a non-entity.  I didn't feel much of a connection to Jacinda or Lucy so I don't care if Jacinda and Henry can't get together or Lucy never gets her "happy family". I don't care if any of the three of them live happily ever after. I don't really care about any of the characters with the exception of Alice, by extension Whook. 

[KingOfHearts]

6 hours ago, Camera One said:

If you look at this season structurally, we're 2/3 done, they've disposed of Victoria 1/2 way through and just now escorted Drizella out the door, and now they have a new minor "villain", Nick/Hansel.  He still seems pretty irrelevant.  Or is he going to try to murder Zelena and Regina next? 

I'm still confused on how many witches there are in the coven. Gothel referred to it in flashbacks as the "coven of the eight", but I wasn't sure if Zelena was meant to be the eighth if she joined. (Judging by the title of 7x10.) So far we've gotten Gothel, Leota, Blind Witch, Doctor, and Drizella. That leaves three spots still.

Edited April 1, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Interview with the invisible series regular on the show, Mekia Cox.  This quote was amusing.

Quote

AX: Were you a fan of ONCE UPON A TIME... before you got the role?

COX: ...I did not get to watch the show until I found out about me getting the part. I went back and I saw I was missing out on this whole world of fun and fantasy [laughs]. But it was six seasons that I’ve had to go back and try and watch. I’ve peaked around in a couple of seasons, but I wanted to make sure that I understood what happened in the last couple seasons, because there are a few references back to stuff that’s happened in the past. Of course, some of the stuff that happened in the beginning I understand, but there is some stuff more recently that really ties into what’s happening now on the show, and so I wanted to make sure that I fully understood that. My mom, the first episode we watched, she was like, “Okay, this is great, but I’m confused.” [laughs] Now that she’s watched a few episodes, she’s like, “Okay, I’m in, I understand it, I get it.”

Good on her for trying to understand what happened in the more recent seasons.  I wonder what she's referring to, which really ties in with the past.

[KingOfHearts]

Tiana is a regular yet she's been absent for the past 3 episodes.

[Mabinogia]

3 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Tiana is a regular yet she's been absent for the past 3 episodes.

She's got the best agent ever. She's getting paid and barely has to work. 

[Camera One]

10 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

If it had been done better, this last season of OUAT could have been a very clever, laughing at themselves meta moment. It is almost exactly season one but with different characters. Henry/Lucy is a child in search of their parent Emma/Henry, who thinks they are ordinary but come from a fairytale family. An evil witch, Regina/Drusilla, who was mistreated by her mom Cora/Tremaine, casts a curse to doom people to a land without magic Storybrooke/Hyperion Heights. A true loves kiss Snowing/Henrella will break the spell.

And there's a background manipulator Rumple/Gothel whose motives are not entirely clear.  

When put like that, the basic setup of Season 7 at its core is a duplicate of the original premise, despite all the shiny distractors that seemed to set it apart.

[Camera One]

I was going to reply in Other Fairy Tales thread, but decided to move it here.

11 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

And honestly, even if A&E thought Regina was the heart of the show, what have they had her do this season? I keep forgetting she's even there, and I constantly have to remind myself that she is actually Regina because I see no resemblance at all to the Evil Queen I once loved. 

The difference is in shows that truly start with character development before coming up with plotlines.  Regina didn't have an actual character arc this season, so there was no heart behind any of her actions.  The only successful spinoff I can think of is "Angel" and he was still dealing with his guilt as his new show began.  He still had his redemption arc and the plots-of-the-week continued to build on that.

Not that I was hungering for Regina to find her true love, but if that had been the driving force behind the character this year, then they needed to build on her loneliness and have her come to some realization about why she didn't have anyone.  Of course, it was tougher because they did so many shortcuts and skipped over all the redemption she could have gone through over the last six seasons.  Then, more than halfway into Season 7, they finally brought on a love interest, and even then, it was all about Dr. Facilier's shady behavior and not about Regina.  In fact, her attraction to him despite knowing he wants Rumple's dagger is an insult to the intelligence of her character, so it's impossible to buy the relationship as a viewer.  

The same (lack of character arc planning) could be said for all the other characters.  Teen Henry's character arc was supposedly wanting to be a hero in his own story, but then they fast-forwarded to Adult Henry, whose character arc was non-existent.  Plotwise, he was attracted to Jacinda, but there was nothing complex about that.  The internal conflict between his Curse memories and his attraction to Jacinda lasted less than 5 minutes, literally.

I'm not sure what Jacinda's character arc was supposed to be... it was very inconsistent.  Cinderella's might have been to have the courage to take action but Jacinda was already impulsive.  It could have been gaining confidence in herself (which supposedly was the reason she signed away the rights to Lucy), but most of the time, she has been almost too confident.  Was it to accept help from other people?  If so, it's exactly the same character arc they off-loaded to Tiana for an episode.  There was no coherent character journey.

The same could be said for almost all the characters, except Whook, who actually grew as a character this season (though arguably, that was only for two episodes) and then he stagnated and even reverted in "Knightfall".

Edited April 2, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

2 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Teen Henry's character arc was supposedly wanting to be a hero in his own story, but then they fast-forwarded to Adult Henry, whose character arc was non-existent. 

I would have loved to hear Henry sing "I'm the Villain in My Own Story" from Crazy Ex-Girlfriend when he realized he was breaking up Jacinda/Nick. (If Jacinda and Nick seemed happy, anyway.)

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

And there's a background manipulator Rumple/Gothel whose motives are not entirely clear.  

Gothel's behavior is so contradictory. One minute, she's dispensing moral tests to Rapunzel to see if she has a pure heart to be the guardian, the next minute, she's egging on Anastasia, the supposed actual Guardian, to kill her sister. 

She abandons her child to starve to death, then curses WHook for his mistake as though she was his moral arbiter, and ended up orphaning her child all over again. What was her motive? When Gothel realized the child hadn't died, did she want to isolate her and turn her into the Guardian? If so, why did she always seem more interested in Anastasia? 

I know. I know. My questions are pointless. But if her motives are still unclear, at least her actions should be consistent. 

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

3 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I keep forgetting she's even there, and I constantly have to remind myself that she is actually Regina because I see no resemblance at all to the Evil Queen I once loved. 

The difference is in shows that truly start with characters development before coming up with plotlines.  Regina didn't have an actual character arc this season, so there was no heart behind any of her actions.

The writers wasted Season 6 and made it all about Regina and Rumple. Lana had more than twice the screen-time of everyone in S6. Now that they actually got rid of the boring heroes, and Lana is supposedly headlining the cast, they neglect Regina and Rumple. And worse, they changed them beyond recognition, and we're supposed to accept that it is becasue of off-screen character development. Sorry, I'm not buying it. 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

5 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Gothel's behavior is so contradictory. One minute, she's dispensing moral tests to Rapunzel to see if she has a pure heart to be the guardian, the next minute, she's egging on Anastasia, the supposed actual Guardian, to kill her sister. 

She abandons her child to starve to death, then curses WHook for his mistake as though she was his moral arbiter, and ended up orphaning her child all over again. What was her motive? When Gothel realized the child hadn't died, did she want to isolate her and turn her into the Guardian? If so, why did she always seem more interested in Anastasia? 

 

Dear Rumple Fan,

It sounds like you're really really interested to find out her backstory!  Well, stayed tuned because it's coming!

Love,

A&E

Edited April 1, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

4 minutes ago, Camera One said:

It sounds like you're really really interested to find out her backstory!  Well, stayed tuned because it's coming!

I can't wait for her last minute redemption! Could we please have a scene of her walking into the Light just like Cora? 

Thanks A&E,

Your loyal fan.

[Camera One]

9 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Could we please have a scene of her walking into the Light just like Cora? 

Dear Loyal Fan,

Now now now, we can't give away that cosmic reward to all characters like candy.  But I'd be disappointed if her deep internal yearning for belonging wasn't explored.   Observant viewers would have noticed that Gothel did not want someone like Gretel, who was so willing to kill.  She wanted someone like Drizella who had solid morals, who only killed for self-defense.  Judgmental people would decry that Gothel left her daughter alone in the tower, but what if she felt she wasn't a worthy mother, and maybe that's why she kept her distance?  But when Whook was so willing to abandon her for his pride, she couldn't just stood for and let such a corrupting influence guide her daughter's life.  If you think about it, Gothel hasn't killed anyone this season except people who deserved it, so she's surely as pure as driven snow and I'm not talking about the other Snow, who was a bad bad corruptible person.

A&E

Edited April 1, 2018 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

When put like that, the basic setup of Season 7 at its core is a duplicate of the original premise, despite all the shiny distractors that seemed to set it apart.

I think that's deliberate, but not in a good way. It's possible to make something like that work. You can use it to show that this has all happened before and will happen again and that the same patterns play out no matter which universe you visit. You can use that to set up expectations and then undermine them -- you think you know where this is going because you've seen it before, and then they pull the rug out from under you. You can use it to show that the characters have learned and grown because they react differently to the same circumstances, which sends the story in a different direction. You can use it to show that the patterns play out in slightly different ways in those different lands or to show the difference small variables can make.

But here, it really seems like it's just lazy writing. They're repeating season one not to make any kind of statement but because they can expect viewers to map the emotions they had from round one onto the similar elements of round two. They don't have to create anything new or even develop it because they're just relying on the viewers' awareness of season one. They talked about this being a reboot that would provide an entry point to new viewers, but I think it would have even less emotional impact if you didn't get the echoes of season one. As it is, we barely care about Lucy. Imagine if you hadn't even seen Henry trying to get people to believe in season one. It would make even less sense why she thinks there's a curse, why she believes Henry is her father. They aren't doing anything really interesting with repeating the premise. They're just plagiarizing themselves in a very uncreative way.

But when they try to diverge, it also doesn't make much sense. Everyone's acting like they're sure that a TLK between Henry and Jacinda will break the curse and kill Henry, but in the first curse Snow and Charming were certified True Loves who fell in love again under the curse and did a lot of kissing without the curse breaking. So why do they think that Henry and Jacinda would break the curse?

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

Teen Henry's character arc was supposedly wanting to be a hero in his own story, but then they fast-forwarded to Adult Henry, whose character arc was non-existent.

He certainly doesn't act like someone who desperately wants to be a hero. Even if they wanted to jump right in with him meeting Jacinda, maybe we should have seen more flashbacks of him before then so we could see him trying to be a hero. I don't know that chasing after a girl trying to commit murder really counts as "heroic," and after that, all he's done is just kind of hang out in the background. Writing 101: When you give a character a goal, you need to show that character trying to achieve that goal, unless the idea is that your character talks big but doesn't do anything. So, does Henry really want to be a hero, or does he just want to be famous but isn't willing to do anything about it? He ends up being a very unsympathetic character because he sounds like he wants glory without actually having to do anything about it. I guess that makes him the perfect hero for the reality TV generation, where you can get famous without actually doing anything or having any particular talent. He needs the storybook equivalent of reality TV. They really should have done some kind of Bachelor spoof in a fairytale world. After all, that's basically what Cinderella's ball was all about in the fairy tale.

[KingOfHearts]

IMO, the writers reacted to the negative feedback on Jacinda. Her screentime has been significantly reduced since her centric in 7x08. She's only present when it's absolutely necessary or just to show she's still there. I'm not complaining at all. I'm so glad the Tremaine family melodrama is no longer relevant. That being said, its replacement isn't all that great either.

[Camera One]

On 3/31/2018 at 3:21 PM, Mabinogia said:

But A&E apparently got bored or something and moved on to the next story which was Gothel trying to bring back a bunch of witches?

That's what A&E claimed 7B was about in the pre-interviews.  But we have seen literally nothing.  What has she been doing with the resurrection amulet?  Did the Witches need to be resurrected?  Was the Blind Witch always in Hyperion Heights?  The doctor was clearly already there.  Are the coven members awake?  Is Gothel trying to wake them up?  We've never seen Gothel off by herself doing whatever she's trying to do.  We've only seen her show up to proposition Drizella (in the latest episode) or to help Rogers find his true self (in "Knightfall").  She has even been completely MIA in the present-day storyline for some episodes.  And she "lost" Anastasia off-screen.  And then she left without doing anything at the end of "Sisterhood".

As someone else said today in one of threads, we can't decide how to feel about the serial killer until we know something, anything, about the Coven.  

[Rumsy4]

22 minutes ago, Camera One said:

And she "lost" Anastasia off-screen.  And then she left without doing anything at the end of "Sisterhood".

She's super ineffectual, she's pathetic. 

[KingOfHearts]

It's a little too obvious that Regina and Facilier shouldn't be together. We haven't seen any chemistry between them. From what we've seen, they're just having hot sex and Regina feels guilty about it. He wants a relationship, but she'd rather just bang when they're not at opposite ends of the battlefield. I could buy the angst if we saw something that wasn't just lust. Facilier has been giving her gifts, but for all we know it's just a form of seduction. Hades did nice things for Zelena and we know how that turned out. I realize it's been years, but Zelena should be giving Regina flack for doing exactly what she did, because before Regina judged her hard for it. Zelena just seems too cool with it. She was only angry about not knowing. 

Regardless, I can't picture Regina dating a villain. She's always had an eye for the more clean cut types. A redeemed villain would work, but Facilier is still up to no good. Wise!Regina pursuing something like this is a tough sell.

Edited April 6, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I hate it when shows saddle a character with a sudden love interest in the final season and then expect us to be happy with them together in the end.  Considering how much the Writers seem to think Regina deserves a True Love, I wonder if they really will have a Happy Regina & Facilier ending.  To me, he's still completely untrustworthy and a total jerk, but I'm not sure if we're supposed to be moved when we found out his true motives and his gift to Regina at the end of "Sisterhood".  What we're supposed to feel is often completely different from the feeling that the show gives off, so I really don't know.

[Rumsy4]

26 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I could buy the angst if we saw something that wasn't just lust.

That's pretty much what it seemed to be with Robin as well. The only guy Regina really loved was Daniel, I think.

The show's very likely going to do a quick redemption for Facilier and have him and Regina walk off into the sunset. I can't see the writers killing off a third love interest for her.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

16 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

That's pretty much what it seemed to be with Robin as well.

That went on for how many years and I never felt a smidgen of chemistry between them.  I've actually felt more chemistry between Henry and Jacinda and that practically requires an electron microscope.

[KingOfHearts]

26 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

That's pretty much what it seemed to be with Robin as well. The only guy Regina really loved was Daniel, I think.

With Robin, at least you had the "soulmates" crap and they went through some real ordeals. Despite their lack of chemistry, it was clear both sides were willing to make sacrifices for the other. Regina/Facilier is just so... optional. There's not any drama beyond Regina potentially making stupid choices. Outlaw Queen had Marian, Roland, and Zelena involved. Voodoo Queen is just so unnecessary by comparison.

[Camera One]

2 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Voodoo Queen is just so unnecessary by comparison.

It's sad when you can't even write your favorite character a good love story.

Or maybe they think Dr. Facilier is bold and audacious.

[Souris]

Wouldn't it be funny karmic if Facilier has Regina's heart and is making her have sex with him?

(Forever bitter Regina got off scott-free for raping and murdering Graham.)

[KingOfHearts]

1 minute ago, Souris said:

Wouldn't it be funny karmic if Facilier has Regina's heart and is making her have sex with him?

(Forever bitter Regina got off scott-free for raping and murdering Graham.)

Now THAT would bookend the series.

[Mitch]

On 3/31/2018 at 5:21 PM, Mabinogia said:

Then it move more towards Tremaine trying to wake her one daughter while just generally hating on her other daughter. (This would have been a wonderful storyline had they made it a full season focus. The favorite child lost to an accident, the resentful child who survived growing hateful towards both the perfect child, who will always be so because she isn't conscious to make mistakes, and the mother who still ignores her for her vegetable of a sister. The surviving sister finds her powers, enacts a curse that screws over many because she was tricked and in way over her head. So much good stuff could have been written into that story.

If that had been the main thrust of the season, I would have been on board. It would have also made Drizella more of a sympathetic character when after the curse was cast, she was freaked out about it but had to stay "in the closet" as no one would believe her...plus being in land without magic there was no turning back..or so she would think. (actually, for once I would like to see someone cast the curse just so they could pee inside and take a hot shower...and I would love someone say, "screw airyfairyland I actually did everyone a favor." ) They could tie the parent child drama to Hook and Alice, and Regina and Henry and make them more interesting... I would have had the reason Henry left SB was to get away from Regina. As an older teen he would quit seeing things in such a black and white way really see the destruction she wrought and find its not okay that she is now a "hero" the pain she inflicted still lingers in SB and he is sick of turning around and someone else saying.."Oh, yea, your mother killed my son, and while those two idiots love her, I don't"

That motive would have made sense and make Henry not seem such a narcisstic dimwit as he does now.  Regina desperate to make ammends goes realm hopping to find him, etc. Just as the two make up in the EF, Drizella casts the curse which would make Henry hate Roni and while its painful for Regina she cant break the curse or he dies. So the overall theme would be parents and children seperated either by anger, not knowing or magic, which would give a tie in to S1 with Emma and the Charmings.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Mitch

[Rumsy4]

28 minutes ago, Mitch said:

As an older teen he would quit seeing things in such a black and white way really see the destruction she wrought and find its not okay that she is now a "hero" the pain she inflicted still lingers in SB and he is sick of turning around and someone else saying.."Oh, yea, your mother killed my son, and while those two idiots love her, I don't"

This would have been very interesting (and is Regina's vault still full of the hearts of her so-called enemies?). But A&E would have needed to be abducted by aliens and get a personality transplant for this scenario to happen. 

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, Mitch said:

(actually, for once I would like to see someone cast the curse just so they could pee inside and take a hot shower...and I would love someone say, "screw airyfairyland I actually did everyone a favor." )

I would totally cast a curse to get indoor plumbing! 

 

1 hour ago, Mitch said:

Regina desperate to make ammends goes realm hopping to find him, etc. Just as the two make up in the EF, Drizella casts the curse which would make Henry hate Roni and while its painful for Regina she cant break the curse or he dies. So the overall theme would be parents and children seperated either by anger, not knowing or magic, which would give a tie in to S1 with Emma and the Charmings.

That would have been brilliant. Regina would finally have faced the punishment for her crimes, losing her son's love when he finally figures out what a monster she was. Given that it seems her entire story is about being loved this would be the ultimate punishment. Her redemption could come when she figures out a way to break the curse and get him back without killing him, but if she did, he would lose the loving family he now has. Perhaps the fix she found for the curse means that Ella and Lucy will die instead of Henry. At first Regina is all "yay, I can have my son back," but then she catches a scene of Henry, so happy with his daughter, and she realizes that she can't take that away from him, the love a parent has for a child. And she gives up her happy ending for that of her son. It would be a bittersweet ending with the promise that she can try to forge some kind of relationship with Henry as Roni the barkeep, though she will never get to hear him call her mom again. 

[Shanna Marie]

Discussion of something that happened in another series (which shall remain nameless -- if you've seen it, you'll recognize it, if not, no spoilers) made me realize what a waste the Hyperion Heights curse was and how it might have been more interesting to do with the original cast, say as the reversal of the curse reverse.

In the premiere and in interviews before the season, they made it sound like the "curse" part of it was that instead of all the characters being together in the isolated small town, they were scattered around a neighborhood, and Victoria's gentrification meant that they were being separated. Except there's very little separation going on. Jacinda and Lucy were still mother and daughter, thanks to the trinket WHook gave them (though she then gave up custody, so they weren't together -- was that something done in the curse that Jacinda just remembered, or did she actually sign over her daughter?). She and Tiana/Sabine were still friends and even roommates. Jacinda was still stepdaughter to Victoria and stepsister to Ivy. Regina and Zelena were still sisters and Zelena was still Robyn's mother. Did Kelly and Margot really leave town, with the curse in effect long enough for them to have gone to other cities, or did the curse happen to plop Kelly and Margot in far-off places, with fake memories of once having lived in Hyperion Heights? Rumple and Alice were still in contact, and Rogers/Whook worked in the same place as Rumple. Even the ones who were separated from each other all ended up finding each other pretty quickly. We didn't see Henry and Jacinda passing each other on the street without knowing each other, or anything like that. They might as well all be living in a small town where they may not know their real identities, but they're all still together.

Part of the problem is that most of them are new characters, so there's no impact to seeing them be other people who don't know each other. We'd seen Rogers and Tilly hanging out together before we learned that WHook was Alice's father, so there was no pang at seeing them be around each other without knowing each other. Henry and Regina met almost instantly without any phase of being strangers.

But imagine how it could have worked with the original cast after we'd had more than a season to get to know them, and suddenly they had new cursed identities in a new place, mixed in with other people so they didn't necessarily find each other. Like, if the attempt to redo the curse to reach Emma had brought them to New York, and Zelena's tinkering with the curse didn't just erase their recent memories but actually gave them new identities. With Emma still having her memories altered, she could have passed her parents on the street without any recognition. Only Hook, who came without a curse, would have known everyone, and it would have been interesting seeing him trying to find a way to get everyone back to normal. Once he gave Emma the potion, the two of them might have had to try to work to bring them all together again, but none of them knew who the threat was, and in a city with other people around, it would have been less obvious that the one new person was the villain.

[KingOfHearts]

Something tells me the Nick Serial Killer plot wasn't planned at all. Straight up until 7x15, there wasn't even a hint of it. Nick seemed like a nice guy who was friends with Henry. I don't think he was intended to be a bad guy at all. 

Quote

In the premiere and in interviews before the season, they made it sound like the "curse" part of it was that instead of all the characters being together in the isolated small town, they were scattered around a neighborhood, and Victoria's gentrification meant that they were being separated. Except there's very little separation going on.

You could set S7 in an exact replica of Storybrooke, and it wouldn't make any difference.

Edited April 7, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

3 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Something tells me the Nick Serial Killer plot wasn't planned at all. Straight up until 7x15, there wasn't even a hint of it. Nick seemed like a nice guy who was friends with Henry. I don't think he was intended to be a bad guy at all. 

What do you mean?? They had it planned all along!! It was not not alluded to in the show. Therefore, it was not not foreshadowed all along. 

[Camera One]

8 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

In the premiere and in interviews before the season, they made it sound like the "curse" part of it was that instead of all the characters being together in the isolated small town, they were scattered around a neighborhood, and Victoria's gentrification meant that they were being separated. Except there's very little separation going on.

16 episodes in and we still haven't met ANYONE who wasn't from the Disenchanted Forest.  They completely didn't do what they claimed they were going to do.

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

 

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

Something tells me the Nick Serial Killer plot wasn't planned at all. Straight up until 7x15, there wasn't even a hint of it. Nick seemed like a nice guy who was friends with Henry. I don't think he was intended to be a bad guy at all. 

What do you mean?? They had it planned all along!! 

Yes, it was all planned!  The fun is when you rewatch Season 7 to discover all the invisible telltale signs.

This is a typical A&E twist, though.  It's a surprise because there are absolutely no clues.  Why would Nick be bothering to help Jacinda out in Hyperion Heights?  Did he covet her all along?  If so, why hasn't he been more aggressive in pursuing her?  He couldn't have been *that* dark and depressed if he became such fast friends with Henry in the flashbacks.  

[Rumsy4]

11 minutes ago, Camera One said:

He couldn't have been *that* dark and depressed if he became such fast friends with Henry in the flashbacks.  

Their "friendship" was probably Nick/Jack silently plotting to murder the Witches of the Coven as Henry droned on and on about Star Wars in the background. 

Edited April 7, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

Well, we always said it was such a shame we never saw Henry having any friends and he finally has one and the friend is a serial killer.  This show is so relatable.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

8 hours ago, Camera One said:

Well, we always said it was such a shame we never saw Henry having any friends and he finally has one and the friend is a serial killer.  This show is so relatable.

The mother he idolizes was a mass murderer. Are we really surprised?

[Rumsy4]

57 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

9 hours ago, Camera One said:

Well, we always said it was such a shame we never saw Henry having any friends and he finally has one and the friend is a serial killer.  This show is so relatable.

The mother he idolizes was a mass murderer. Are we really surprised?

And the best and bravest women he's ever met was a potential murderer whom we have not seen actually doing anything brave or admirable so far. 

[Mitch]

19 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Discussion of something that happened in another series (which shall remain nameless -- if you've seen it, you'll recognize it, if not, no spoilers) made me realize what a waste the Hyperion Heights curse was and how it might have been more interesting to do with the original cast, say as the reversal of the

But imagine how it could have worked with the original cast after we'd had more than a season to get to know them, and suddenly they had new cursed identities in a new place, mixed in with other people so they didn't necessarily find each other. Like, if the attempt to redo the curse to reach Emma had brought them to New York, and Zelena's tinkering with the curse didn't just erase their recent memories but actually gave them new identities. With Emma still having her memories altered, she could have passed her parents on the street without any recognition. Only Hook, who came without a curse, would have known everyone, and it would have been interesting seeing him trying to find a way to get everyone back to normal. Once he gave Emma the potion, the two of them might have had to try to work to bring them all together again, but none of them knew who the threat was, and in a city with other people around, it would have been less obvious that the one new person was the villain.

That would have been great...and it was at the exact time the show needed a reboot too...flashbacks between the urban cursed people and the lost year in the EF...(which I would have focused more on Regina and Snow and how they got along in their old haunts...THAT would have been the perfect time to get a redeemed Regina as she struggles with being back in the EQ lands and her dark side..Zelena egging her on to be her old self (knowing it would seperate her from the gang and make her weaker and easier to trap and kill, etc. ) 

 

But it would break from their tired formula and also be more expensive to film in a urban area.  It also wouldn't work on Sunday nights as I would want to make it more edgier then they were willing to do.

[Kktjones]

I do wonder if A&E knew last summer that S7 would be the last season and that they could definitely get JMo, Ginny, Josh, Sean & Emilie back for the series finale, would they have written a totally different story? One of the biggest issues is that they doubled down on the fake WishRealm so that they could include a different version of Hook and keep CaptainSwan happy in SB. Do you think the season would have been better if it had been some sort of quest or adventure with a goal of reuniting with SB/Emma/Snowing/Belle, etc. at the end of the season? My opinion is their desire to keep things going for multiple seasons coupled with their insistence on using the same old FT flashback & character centric formula is what really killed the show. People would have been much more invested in seeing the real Regina, Hook, Rumple & Henry fighting to get back to their loved ones...

[Camera One]

12 minutes ago, Kktjones said:

I do wonder if A&E knew last summer that S7 would be the last season and that they could definitely get JMo, Ginny, Josh, Sean & Emilie back for the series finale, would they have written a totally different story?

Since this is A&E, I don't think they would have told a different story.  They knew S6 would be the last they would have several key cast members and yet they still wasted them like last week's leftovers.  I think they were truly rejuvenated that they could put aside the dead weight to bring on some new shiny toys while keeping their absolute favorites.

Quote

Do you think the season would have been better if it had been some sort of quest or adventure with a goal of reuniting with SB/Emma/Snowing/Belle, etc. at the end of the season?  People would have been much more invested in seeing the real Regina, Hook, Rumple & Henry fighting to get back to their loved ones...

I wonder if the ratings would have been better.  One problem with that approach would be frustration for viewers that the reunions wouldn't happen for 20 hours.  The real-life behind-the-scenes reason could make the storyline feel more contrived.  Another problem is that there wasn't much more to explore between the dynamics of real-life Regina, Hook, Rumple and Henry.  I think the only actual highlight in Season 7 was seeing the development of Wish Hook and his daughter Alice.  Original Recipe Regina, Rumple and even Henry were bland and have done practically nothing for 16 hours.  

Quote

My opinion is their desire to keep things going for multiple seasons coupled with their insistence on using the same old FT flashback & character centric formula is what really killed the show.

I agree that their desperate attempt to go for Season 8, 9, etc. using the formula from Season 1 was what killed Season 7.  Frankly, I don't think they *know* how to write a proper story without a FT flashback and character centric formula to sustain a 22 episode season.  That formula is a major crutch since they basically just have write two 20 minute stories with a surprise connection and voilà, episode in the bag.  The fact that they kept the same formula for "Dead of Summer" pretty much shows their reliance on that gimmick.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

As many people that didn’t watch this season because it wasn’t “real” Hook, there probably would’ve been an equal number who would not have watched this season if Hook and Emma were separated, with the knowledge that JMo might never come return for a cameo (including me, probably).

The main problem is that Season 7 started with multiple issues, one of which is the lack of chemistry between the main romantic pair (Henriella), and Tremaine being so underwhelming as a villain. Added to that the storyarcs were all over the place, the timelines were messed up, and things went nowhere for several episodes. I think the season is finally improving, but too late to save it. 

Edited April 7, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Mabinogia]

6 hours ago, Mitch said:

THAT would have been the perfect time to get a redeemed Regina as she struggles with being back in the EQ lands and her dark side..Zelena egging her on to be her old self (knowing it would seperate her from the gang and make her weaker and easier to trap and kill, etc. ) 

It is making me sad reading all these different, wonderful ideas for a redemption arc for Regina considering what we got, which was the magical instant redemption. They could have given their favorite character about a dozen great storylines and then went with "everyone forgives her and she's part of the gang so stop dwelling on all the bad stuff she did!" For a character they supposedly love they really short changed her. 

 

18 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

The main problem is that Season 7 started with multiple issues, one of which is the lack of chemistry between the main romantic pair (Henriella), and Tremaine being so underwhelming as a villain. Added to that the storyarcs were all over the place, the timelines were messed up, and things went nowhere for several episodes. I think the season is finally improving, but too late to save it. 

I agree with all of this. I think focusing on Henriella was a mistake based on the casting, since neither actor are that dynamic and together they are horribly dull. I still don't get Victoria's motivations at all in anything she did. I don't get the gentrification of HH storyline. I'm not entirely sure what Drusilla wanted from casting her curse, granted, I didn't watch everything because it was all too boring and confusing for me. Once the moved away from the whole Cinderella focus things got a bit better. Now that they are focusing on Whook/Alice the whole thing seems better. I'm not a Captain Swan fan so I really didn't care if Hook was Original Recipe Hook or Whook or a totally different Hook we hadn't met before. Colin O'D is stunning, has a great accent and can act so I would have watched the season more if he had been the focus all along. I'm easy like that, and a sucker for an accent. 

[PixiePaws1]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

As many people that didn’t watch this season because it wasn’t “real” Hook, there probably would’ve been an equal number who would not have watched this season if Hook and Emma were separated, with the knowledge that JMo might never come return for a cameo (including me, probably).

The easiest solution would have been the season's villain or one of his/her minions had been glamoured to masquerade as Original Hook for some reason..maybe to fool Blackbeard or whatever,  but they got caught up in the curse and 'stuck' looking like him in HH. The audience knows it isn't Killian but only the villain does. Hence no need to mention the Wish!Insult to Emma realm, ever EVER again.CS all safe and happy beginning preserved.

[Rumsy4]

I think there will be a faction not pleased with any decision they made. Because the crux of the matter is that A&E wasted most of Season 6 and threw away talented actors for the requel idea. So, they were already on shaky ground. Let's forget obsessed fans and think of those viewers who are more forgiving/less invested or the general audience: retaining only few of the originals while casting a bunch of new actors that weren't properly screen-tested was the second blow. And third, their writing sucks. Even if they had the most brilliant ideas ever, and even if they had miraculously retained JMo and Gosh, this would still have been the final season, IMO, because they suck at the execution part.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

37 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Let's forget obsessed fans and think of those viewers who are more forgiving/less invested or the general audience

 

One of my friends actually quit last year in 6A.  She watched the season premiere this year and decided she wasn't interested.  Their ever increasingly craptastic writing would eventually have done them in.  Their well of ideas ran dry last year and it was obvious to everyone but them.  

Edited April 8, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

One of my friends actually quit last year in 6A.  She watched the season premiere this year and decided she wasn't interested.  Their ever increasingly craptastic writing would eventually have done them in.  Their well of ideas ran dry last year and it was obvious to everyone but them.  

One of my friends I used to watch finales and premieres with could be positive about anything, but she couldn't bear to continue after S6. From those I've spoken to about the show, they all seemed to quit at various points in time. After S1, 2B, 3A, 5B, etc. They all seem to have a similar reaction - they didn't care for the plots or where the writers were going with the characters.

"Breadcrumbs" got me thinking. This is the final season and there's only a few episodes left. Why not go bananas with some crazy shenanigans? Why are the writers pacing themselves with these subplots that likely won't matter in the finale? They're trying to make it look like it's all leading up to something, as in S1, but we all know it's not. Everything's important for about two episodes then it's gone. This serial killer plot will probably be wrapped up next week. I just can't get invested in anything that's going on, even Tilly/Margot, because it'll all be over in a few weeks. These characters aren't going to go anywhere.

[Camera One]

6 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

"Breadcrumbs" got me thinking. This is the final season and there's only a few episodes left. Why not go bananas with some crazy shenanigans? Why are the writers pacing themselves with these subplots that likely won't matter in the finale? They're trying to make it look like it's all leading up to something, as in S1, but we all know it's not. Everything's important for about two episodes then it's gone. This serial killer plot will probably be wrapped up next week. I just can't get invested in anything that's going on, even Tilly/Margot, because it'll all be over in a few weeks. These characters aren't going to go anywhere.

Because they're selling the idea that they have this very important planned out rewarding story that they're telling this season and they're going to do EXACTLY what they had planned to do even if they had not been cancelled.  Remember, the only thing they're changing is removing the cliffhanger they had already decided for Season 8 because what they've planned for us is THAT good.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

3 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Because they're selling the idea that they have this very important planned out rewarding story that they're telling this season and they're going to do EXACTLY what they had planned to do even if they had not been cancelled.  Remember, the only thing they're changing is removing the cliffhanger they had already decided for Season 8.

The sad part is that it's not even super terrible. I wouldn't mind engaging myself with Rogers' story, Tilly/Margot's, or even Kelly's. It's not like S6 where there was nothing to mine from it at all. I actually kind of want to see a few of the characters get a second season.

Edited April 8, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I'm still Team Season 8 but the universe is against us.

[Rumsy4]

7 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I wouldn't mind engaging myself with Rogers' story, Tilly/Margot's, or even Kelly's.

Those three threads are the best in terms of writing, chemistry, and/or acting. The scene that Kelly had with Lucy was cute and more natural than any interactions Roni and Lucy have shared. Tilly/Margot easily beat Henriella in the chemistry department. Rose totally sells "Tilly" as being different without overdoing it or making it farcical. Rogers being a proud dad and dropping off his kid at "school", was all very adorable. We are getting at least some payoff for the angst without waiting until the last episode for them to be together. 

Edited April 8, 2018 by Rumsy4