A New Beginning: OUAT 2.0

[Mabinogia]

11 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

The villain ain't even doing much, aside from killing Victoria. (But let's be real. She did them a favor.) I guess Anastasia is being held hostage watching cartoons. Ooo.

Seriously, we have villains, but we haven't really met them yet, who want, something but we don't know what, and are killing...other villains? And kidnapped some girl we don't really know. None of this seems to have anything to do with Henry and Jacinda the supposed main characters. Some people have magic in this land without magic but not all the time, only when they need it for plot purposes, some people know who they were in the other realm but some don't but no one can make them know unless the storyline needs them to know and then some magical item in this non-magical land comes from no where but there's only enough to wake that one person. This show wishes it was a hot mess. It used to be hot but now it's just say old mess left on the counter after an all night booze up. It would be an insult to drunk monkey to accuse them of having written this mess. It's an insult to writing to say that these storylines were written. Absolutely nothing on this show makes any sense anymore. 

They have squandered every decent (and some even good) idea they have come up with. It actually hurts me as a fan because I do think there were some good ideas, even in this season there was some potential. Whook/Alice were an interesting idea. Even Roni/Henry's awkwardly sexual tension had potential. Henry could have been a story about giving up a destiny you thought you had only to find one you never expected. 

[KingOfHearts]

We've had a fairy tale flashback in every single episode this season, but the Rapunzel flashbacks in 7x09 were the only ones that didn't feel cheap. It feels like we haven't done fairy tale stuff hardly at all. Most of the flashbacks are just the characters standing around talking. Not much different from HH.

[Camera One]

I was just thinking about Gideon and realizing that he's Henry's uncle but younger than him.  Maybe it would have been interesting for Adult Henry to interact with him.  Then again, Gideon's personality is so nebulous and he did try to kill Henry's mother but bygones.

[KingOfHearts]

52 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I was just thinking about Gideon and realizing that he's Henry's uncle but younger than him.  Maybe it would have been interesting for Adult Henry to interact with him.  Then again, Gideon's personality is so nebulous and he did try to kill Henry's mother but bygones.

Henry's mother tried to kill Henry's mother, and he worships the ground she walks on.

Edited March 18, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

18 hours ago, Camera One said:

His entire character arc is basically, he wants Jacinda.  There is nothing else driving him, no internal conflict, no real goals.  There is no actual reason for him to be in Hyperion Heights aside from Jacinda. 

And he doesn't even seem to really want Jacinda. He acts like he might not have bothered having anything to do with her if Roni and Lucy hadn't been pushing him.

Meanwhile, even in the flashbacks, the guy who ditched his family and went to another world because he wanted to get written into storybooks as a hero hasn't done anything, either. I guess maybe he's happy to be in the storybooks as that guy in the background of the scene. Wanting to be a hero isn't a viable character goal to begin with, but he doesn't even act like he's trying to be a hero. It doesn't help that they skipped so much, going straight from his first kiss with Jacinda to Lucy's birth, so we didn't get to see if he had anything to do with helping Whook find Alice again or getting Lady Tremaine somewhat on their side against Drizella or winning the revolution against the king. He didn't go with the group going to hunt the alligator. We didn't see him doing anything to find Cinderella. He's been witnessing events, not causing them, and shouldn't that be an issue for him? Is he happy with this? Has he figured out that this may be his role in life? Has he come to some sort of peace with that role? Did he ever change his goal about being in a storybook, like maybe with fatherhood?

7 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

On 3/17/2018 at 3:14 PM, Rumsy4 said:

So, theories as to who's killing off the Coven? Facilier? Tilly? Gothel (for some reason)? Ivy? Weaver?

This didn't get any traction in the episode thread. :-p Any takers? 

I had the wacky theory that Gothel is doing it for some reason, though not necessarily doing it herself. Maybe if she kills the Coven, she absorbs all their power into herself, in a "there can be only one" kind of thing. If the painting Rogers gave to Gothel was actually the painting we saw Alice painting in the flashback (I'm not sure -- I don't really care to rewatch), then maybe she was able to use the painting to control Tilly, and that's why Tilly was at the hospital. Tilly killed the blind witch, but only because Gothel was controlling her through her creation.

[Camera One]

If it's Gothel, maybe the Coven is only complete if they're all dead spirits or something.  They may or may not need to get the actresses back because they can always just do the hooded look.  

I think Dr. Facilier with the black gloves last week was a red herring. 

Ditto for Tilly since she was obviously framed.  I don't see them making her an actual murderer, even if compelled.

It's possible Weaver is being forced to do it (he wouldn't do it willingly since he loves his Belle).

Another possibility is Zelena's mysterious boyfriend.

Edited March 18, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

7 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Ditto for Tilly since she was obviously framed. 

Haha. Get it? Framed? Painting? A&E are so clever.

Quote

I think Dr. Facilier with the black gloves last week was a red herring. 

But we thought Rogers and Tilly playing chess would be a red herring too, since it was so obvious.

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

I had the wacky theory that Gothel is doing it for some reason, though not necessarily doing it herself. Maybe if she kills the Coven, she absorbs all their power into herself, in a "there can be only one" kind of thing.

That is a possibility, especially since she wasn't really helping the detectives find the killer, and seems to have set up Tilly to take the fall for the crimes. 

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I think Dr. Facilier with the black gloves last week was a red herring. 

Ditto for Tilly since she was obviously framed.  I don't see them making her an actual murderer, even if compelled.

It's possible Weaver is being forced to do it (he wouldn't do it willingly since he loves his Belle).

I too think Facilier is a red-herring at this point. Would they give reformed Rongina a murder boyfriend this late in the game? But Weaver is still a possibility, IMO. After all, Belle is dead, and he desperately wants to reunite with her. If the Coven reuniting will thwart his plan, he may be tempted.  

Spoiler

Didn't A&E say, Rumple will be tempted by evil or something in an interview? They always tend to think a last minute change of heart is enough to redeem him.

Quote

Another possibility is Zelena's mysterious boyfriend.

Lol. Quite possible. 

[Camera One]

2 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

That is a possibility, especially since she wasn't really helping the detectives find the killer.

What do you mean?  She was giving them so many clues.

[KingOfHearts]

35 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

But Weaver is still a possibility, IMO. After all, Belle is dead, and he desperately wants to reunite with her. If the Coven reuniting will thwart his plan, he may be tempted.  

But how could Weaver kill the baker if he was with Rogers?

[Camera One]

8 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

But how could Weaver kill the baker if he was with Rogers?

That's what makes this mystery so intriguing, intricate and difficult to solve.  This is on the level of "NYPD Blue".  Even Sherlock Holmes and Jessica Fletcher can't solve this one.  They would crumble when confronted with Mother Gothel in the interrogation room.

Edited March 18, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

10 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

But how could Weaver kill the baker if he was with Rogers?

As if logic is a stumbling block with this show. Maybe he set up a timed device to kill her. He just didn't expect Tilly to be there and end up becoming Suspect no.1. ;-)

[jhlipton]

23 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

This show wishes it was a hot mess. It used to be hot but now it's just say old mess left on the counter after an all night booze up. It would be an insult to drunk monkey to accuse them of having written this mess.

Beautifu!!!!

17 hours ago, Camera One said:

If it's Gothel, maybe the Coven is only complete if they're all dead spirits or something.  They may or may not need to get the actresses back because they can always just do the hooded look.

They'll be reincarnated as coat hangers (then bicycles)

[KingOfHearts]

I've been thinking about what to call the characters - their real names vs. their cursed names. Here's a helpful guide!

* Henry is Henry and Lucy is Lucy. Easy.
* Jacinda is always going to be Jacinda, because she's nothing like Cinderella. "Murderella" is an acceptable alternative for her past self, if need be.
* Even though Rumple is awake, he's still Weaver in HH because he acts so differently from the Rumple we know.
* Everyone else falls into three categories - they're awake, so their real name is satisfactory, or they're asleep so use their cursed persona, or they're asleep but their cursed identity is so forgettable that you can only remember their real name. (Tiana, Naveen, Facilier)

In S1, it was pretty easy. The cursed personalities were fleshed out and very differentiated from their fairy tale identities. In S7, it's more tricky because half of them are already awake or their cursed selves are no different from their real selves.

[Shanna Marie]

I made another stab at a timeline. There's no way to reconcile it. It makes my head hurt.

Curse minus several years
Disenchanted Forest: Rapunzel poisons Cecilia, who runs away to Wonderland
Wonderland: Alice meets Cecelia and learns what happened to her

Curse (1983)
Enchanted Forest/Storybrooke: Frozen in time for 28 years
Wishverse: Regina’s powers are removed, so she doesn’t cast the curse
Disenchanted Forest: Anastasia “dies.” Rapunzel traps Gothel in the tower (this could have happened earlier, but this is probably the latest it could have happened unless the Alice events get moved around)

C+1 (or so)
Wishverse: WRegina and WHook go to Disenchanted Forest. Alice is born, WHook gives up the Jolly Roger to stay with Alice.

C+10 (or so)
Disenchanted Forest: WHook, now in his 40s and graying, gets poisoned by Gothel and can’t be in contact with Alice

C+27
Alternative date for Alice’s birth if she’s 18 when Henry meets her. But that means she’s only 4 when Emma meets Old Hook.

C+28 (2011)
Storybrooke/Enchanted Forest: Time starts moving when Emma comes to town

C+31 (or so) (about 2014)
Wishverse is created when the Evil Queen makes Aladdin grant Emma’s offhand wish that she never was the Savior. Emma meets Old Wish Hook, who is 28 years older than her Hook, so probably around 60 or so. Alice would be about 30 at this time, if she was born soon after the curse would have been cast.
End of season 6 — the Last Supper — in Storybrooke. Henry is 13-14. Robyn is an infant.

C+36 (2019)
Storybrooke: Henry leaves home to go get himself written into a storybook. Henry is 18. Emma is 36.

C+ 45 (2028) (ish)
Disenchanted Forest: Henry is about 27. He meets Ella, calls for help from Hook. WHook tries to take the place of Hook, but changes his mind. A de-aged WHook joins Henry and Regina on Henry’s quest. Emma is pregnant and goes back home with her Hook. WHook finds Alice again. She’s in her late teens/early 20s. (All of this could happen up to 3 years later or possibly years earlier)

C+49 (2032)
Storybrooke: 18-year-old Robyn gets taken by Gothel. Zelena goes after her to the Disenchanted Forest
Disenchanted Forest: Lucy is born and Drizella announces the "prophecy" of her curse

C+ 57 (2040)
Drizella is freed on Lucy’s 8th birthday.
Adult Robyn and Alice are romantically involved and seem to be about the same age

There is no way to reconcile all these events. To make Alice's current age make sense, she has to have been born well into the curse years, but then that means she's still a small child and WHook is younger than he was in the latest episode when Emma meets him and he's old. WHook's age makes sense if Alice was born soon after the curse and he's about 15 years older than in the latest episode when Emma meets him, but then that means Alice would be in her 40s by the time a de-aged WHook runs into her again with Henry. Maybe one of the places she visited in addition to Wonderland was Neverland, so she hasn't aged in all this time? But then that would mean that Ella would be pushing 60 when Henry meets her, since she was a teenager before Alice was born. And that's not even getting to the bit about Alice meeting Cecelia in Wonderland before she was born. Or how nobody is aging as all this time is passing.

[Rumsy4]

5 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

WHook is younger than he was in the latest episode when Emma meets him and he's old

Maybe the Poisoned Heart curse made him age faster? Still, ~30 years would've passed since he came back from Neverland. Or we could pretend he went back to Neverland when Regina was defeated, and came back a couple of decades later. 

[Camera One]

Hello everyone.  How many times do we have to tell you that everything will make sense in the end?  For starters, to truly understand this, you would need to comprehend how the fifth dimension works and I doubt any of you do.  To put it in simple terms, time works differently in Wish Wonderland and Wish Neverland and the Wish Realm and Hyperion Heights and the Disenchanted Forest and Storybrooke and the Enchanted Forest, and there are time tunnels everywhere that can allow people to experience different planes of time and not know it.  Age is a construct that doesn't apply to this complex multiverse we've created.  I hope that explains all your questions.  The most important point we want to stress is it's what on the inside that counts.  Don't focus so much on people's outer appearance.  Who cares if people look old or young?  There seems to be jealousy that people on the show still look young even when they're older and it's not healthy.

Love, 

A&E

[ParadoxLost]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Hello everyone.  How many times do we have to tell you that everything will make sense in the end?  For starters, to truly understand this, you would need to comprehend how the fifth dimension works and I doubt any of you do.  To put it in simple terms, time works differently in Wish Wonderland and Wish Neverland and the Wish Realm and Hyperion Heights and the Disenchanted Forest and Storybrooke and the Enchanted Forest, and there are time tunnels everywhere that can allow people to experience different planes of time and not know it.  Age is a construct that doesn't apply to this complex multiverse we've created.  I hope that explains all your questions.  The most important point we want to stress is it's what on the inside that counts.  Don't focus so much on people's outer appearance.  Who cares if people look old or young?  There seems to be jealousy that people on the show still look young even when they're older and it's not healthy.

Love, 

A&E

May I pass along my congratulations for your great interdimensional breakthrough. I am sure, in the miserable annals of the Earth, you will be duly enshrined.

Edited March 19, 2018 by ParadoxLost
quote from Buckaroo Bonzai Across the 8th dimension

[ParadoxLost]

Did they ever explain whether the disenchanted forest is in Wishverse or if Gothel, Tremayne/Rapunzel all split Wishverse somehow?

[Camera One]

10 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

Did they ever explain whether the disenchanted forest is in Wishverse or if Gothel, Tremayne/Rapunzel all split Wishverse somehow?

They didn't explain but it's heavily implied in the first episode of this season that it was a completely different world.  The explanation was Henry going on about how there's a French Snow White and a German Snow White, etc., and then we see him in a world with a Latina Cinderella.  

The Wish Realm Cinderella would still be Ashley since that was just a copy of the Emma Universe, the only difference being the Curse was never cast.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Camera One

[ParadoxLost]

28 minutes ago, Camera One said:

They didn't explain but it's heavily implied in the first episode of this season that it was a completely different world.  The explanation was Henry going on about how there's a French Snow White and a German Snow White, etc., and then we see him in a world with a Latina Cinderella.  

The Wish Realm Cinderella would still be Ashley since that was just a copy of the Emma Universe, the only difference being the Curse was never cast.

OK.  Now my head hurts.

All this Gothel/Hook stuff is happening in WVerse isn't it?  I don't remember realm hopping to explain WRegina and Smee presence during a couple of the flashbacks.

But WRupunzel should be season 3 Rapunzel and WVerse witch should be manifestation of her fear.

Unless the curse not being cast led to the Tower being vacant because WRapunzel had a smoother transition to her throne.

But in that case, Rapunzel/Tremaine and Witch/Gothel hopped realms at least twice (to WVerse and back to DEF).  Unless a Tower always need that story.  But in that case, they still managed to wander fro WVerse to DEF.

[Shanna Marie]

8 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

All this Gothel/Hook stuff is happening in WVerse isn't it?  I don't remember realm hopping to explain WRegina and Smee presence during a couple of the flashbacks.

The Gothel stuff happens in the Disenchanted Forest, which is a different world from the Wishverse. WRegina, WHook, and WSmee went to another world where Regina had heard about a source of magic. WHook stayed there, WSmee got the Jolly Roger, and WRegina went off elsewhere. I guess WHook goes back to the Wishverse and crawls into a bottle of rum after being poisoned, and there he meets Emma and possibly gets the Jolly Roger back when she magically sends him to the Jolly Roger. Then he apparently gave up rum and came back to the Disenchanted Forest when he got Henry's message. The Wishverse seems to contain wish versions of all the worlds that were important to the original recipe Enchanted Forest, since WHook is still alive, which means he must have gone to Neverland. But the Disenchanted Forest seems to have its own Wonderland that's distinct from the original Enchanted Forest version of Wonderland, where Cora was Queen of Hearts and the spinoff happened. Disenchanted Forest Rapunzel is an entirely different Rapunzel, just as Murderella is an entirely different Cinderella. Presumably, there's a Wishverse version of the season 3 Rapunzel and Ashley Cinderella. WHook seems to be the only one commuting between the Wishverse and Disenchanted Forest, but I guess he's good at traveling between realms, given all his experience with Neverland.

I hope this clears everything up. Just like the timeline makes total sense.

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

To put it in simple terms, time works differently in Wish Wonderland and Wish Neverland and the Wish Realm and Hyperion Heights and the Disenchanted Forest and Storybrooke and the Enchanted Forest, and there are time tunnels everywhere that can allow people to experience different planes of time and not know it. 

That's the only way to explain it all. Some of it makes sense on its own, but falls apart when it intersects other stories. Like all the WHook and Alice stuff and the intersection between Emma and WHook would work if Alice was born soon after the curse would have been cast and if she went to Neverland in search of her father after she got out of the tower. Then she could still look young and WHook would be the right age. But that doesn't work if you have to fit it into the Gothel and Rapunzel story, since Ella was a teenager before Alice was born. If you reconcile Alice's timeline with Ella's timeline, then it doesn't fit with what we know of WHook's timeline and where it intersects with Emma's timeline, and fitting in Robyn's age and what that means for the passage of time in Storybrooke and Henry's age only complicates things further.

[Camera One]

28 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

All this Gothel/Hook stuff is happening in WVerse isn't it?  I don't remember realm hopping to explain WRegina and Smee presence during a couple of the flashbacks.

The only realm hopping they showed/explained clearly was in "Eloise Gardener".  Wish Regina, freshly defeated by Wish Snowing, tells Wish Hook of a witch in a far away realm (aka the Disenchanted Forest) who can help him get revenge on Rumple.  Wish Hook and Wish Smee go to the Disenchanted Forest, where he is raped by Disenchanted Gothel in The Tower, which is in the Disenchanted Forest.  After he finds out he has a baby, he tells Wish Smee to keep the Jolly Roger (and he goes back to the Wish Realm, I think).

So presumably, in "Knightfall", Wish Hook actually went back to the Wish Realm to find Wish Smee and that was where he had his duel with Wish Captain Moby Dick (unless Smee stuck around the Disenchanted Forest?  It's unclear where they were).  What makes me think it's the Wish Realm is because Whook went to see Wish Rumple in the same cell and orientation as when we last saw him in Season 6.  Disenchanted Rumple would have been a different entity.

That's the problem I found with this latest episode, because it implied Disenchanted Gothel also went to the Wish Realm to poison that bullet.  But then again, Disenchanted Gothel was somehow in Cora's spellbook.

As far as I know Disenchanted Tremaine/Rapunzel has stayed in the Disenchanted Forest the entire time.  

Edited March 20, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

9 hours ago, Camera One said:

Disenchanted Rumple would have been a different entity.

And his name is Dr. Facilier. ;-p

[Shanna Marie]

12 hours ago, Camera One said:

That's the problem I found with this latest episode, because it implied Disenchanted Gothel also went to the Wish Realm to poison that bullet.  But then again, Disenchanted Gothel was somehow in Cora's spellbook.

Well, we don't know where Gothel was between trapping baby Alice in the tower and trying to kidnap Robyn. So I guess she could have fled to the Wish Realm in the meantime. Or she was stalking WHook, looking for an opportunity to poison him in a way that would end up making him feel bad. Because why stop at raping someone when you can also destroy him emotionally and sour his relationship with the one person he loves?

12 hours ago, Camera One said:

So presumably, in "Knightfall", Wish Hook actually went back to the Wish Realm to find Wish Smee and that was where he had his duel with Wish Captain Moby Dick (unless Smee stuck around the Disenchanted Forest?  It's unclear where they were).  What makes me think it's the Wish Realm is because Whook went to see Wish Rumple in the same cell and orientation as when we last saw him in Season 6. 

I thought WHook went to the Wish Realm to find Wish Rumple to get help freeing Alice. Then he went to Ye Olde Tavern (Thousands Served!) and ran into Smee while looking for Ahab to get the hook. So all these events happened in the Wish Realm. I'm just going to assume that Gothel showed up in Ye Olde Tavern and put Ahab up to challenging WHook when WHook left to take the hook back to WRumple or that the Ahab who showed up to challenge WHook was actually Gothel in disguise (and the wound in the duel was magically faked). We just didn't get to see any of that because it would have ruined the Shocking!Twist when the thing we knew was going to happen ended up happening.

You know, even in the original Enchanted Forest, the Charmings managed to trap and hold Rumple (here, they've held him for decades). Why couldn't they have done something similar to Regina? If they could hold a Dark One, they could hold an ordinary sorceress. There was middle ground between executing her and letting her run free to slaughter villages and cast curses.

[KingOfHearts]

25 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

You know, even in the original Enchanted Forest, the Charmings managed to trap and hold Rumple (here, they've held him for decades). Why couldn't they have done something similar to Regina? If they could hold a Dark One, they could hold an ordinary sorceress. There was middle ground between executing her and letting her run free to slaughter villages and cast curses.

Probably because Rumple was the only one with the magic to trap himself. Presumably, he somehow got it to Blue, who gave it to the Charmings.

[Shanna Marie]

32 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Probably because Rumple was the only one with the magic to trap himself. Presumably, he somehow got it to Blue, who gave it to the Charmings.

And I guess it backfired on him in the Wish Realm, where he got himself trapped, but the curse was never cast. Oops.

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

I thought WHook went to the Wish Realm to find Wish Rumple to get help freeing Alice. Then he went to Ye Olde Tavern (Thousands Served!) and ran into Smee while looking for Ahab to get the hook. So all these events happened in the Wish Realm.

Yes, I agree WHook went back to the Wish Realm to talk to WRumple.  Though why would WRumple know anything about the Disenchanted Forest?  Oh right, the villains know everything when it's convenient.

Quote

I'm just going to assume that Gothel showed up in Ye Olde Tavern and put Ahab up to challenging WHook when WHook left to take the hook back to WRumple or that the Ahab who showed up to challenge WHook was actually Gothel in disguise (and the wound in the duel was magically faked). We just didn't get to see any of that because it would have ruined the Shocking!Twist when the thing we knew was going to happen ended up happening.

Usually, when they do a shocking twist, they can't help spelling it out for us in the end.  Like Gothel would turn into Ahab in The Tower to show us it was her in disguise.  The fact that they didn't suggests they didn't intend this at all.  Which is more evidence of shoddy writing because they had the obligation to explain how the bullet got poisoned in the first place.  But this was also the episode that decided not to tell us WHook was realm hopping.  A casual viewer would assume everything in this episode occurred in the Disenchanted Forest.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

8 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Yes, I agree WHook went back to the Wish Realm to talk to WRumple.  Though why would WRumple know anything about the Disenchanted Forest?  Oh right, the villains know everything when it's convenient.

I thought it was kind of weird that WHook stumbled upon Ahab and Smee in the same tavern. (There's only one Tavern in each realm, don'cha know.) Like, how did WRumple know that Ahab still had Maui's Fish Hook? Do his powers of foresight still work when his magic is being drained?

Also - why didn't WHook just take Muai's Fish Hook back to the tower without visiting WRumple again at all? I thought he was going to use the hook to break the prison spell on the tower. I don't see why he would risk letting WRumple loose, since you know, he probably would be killed.

Edited March 20, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

1 minute ago, KingOfHearts said:

Also - why didn't WHook just take Muai's Fish Hook back to the tower without visiting WRumple again at all? 

He had to ask WRumple how to use the fish hook.  Whook didn't realize you just wave it in the air with jazz hands.

[KingOfHearts]

2 minutes ago, Camera One said:

He had to ask WRumple how to use the fish hook.  Whook didn't realize you just wave it in the air with jazz hands.

You'd think Killian Jones of all people would know how to operate a hook, LOL.

[Shanna Marie]

51 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Though why would WRumple know anything about the Disenchanted Forest? 

I think WHook was just looking for general magical advice and possibly power. Though how did he know where to find WRumple? The whole point of the "Revenge" musical number was that Hook didn't know where to find Rumple. In the Prime universe, the Charmings told him, but then when Blue erased all the memories, he would have forgotten, and he never found Rumple. Or, since it's been at least a decade, did word get out where WRumple is?

47 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Also - why didn't WHook just take Muai's Fish Hook back to the tower without visiting WRumple again at all? I thought he was going to use the hook to break the prison spell on the tower. I don't see why he would risk letting WRumple loose, since you know, he probably would be killed.

I guess maybe he was being consistent (and/or not learning from experience). He brought the flower back to Gothel when he didn't have to, other than from keeping his word. The deal he made with WRumple seemed to be that he would use the hook to free WRumple, who would then help him use it to free Alice -- Rumple was just trapped by a cage that he couldn't get out of without magic, while Alice's imprisonment was a bit trickier. But then we don't know if he actually bothered to free Rumple, and he didn't have Rumple with him when he returned, so who the hell knows? He didn't even seem to get a chance to learn how to use the hook or practice on it with Rumple's cage.

And didn't Rumple have the sheet of paper with Emma's name written all over it in squid ink in his cell? In the Prime universe, he could have escaped that cell at any time. He wanted to be there to engineer all the details of the curse and setting up the way to break it. Since he didn't need to use the squid ink, it was still in there for when Hook locked Team Princess in the cell. If the Charmings had WRumple captive, things must have gone pretty far toward the curse being cast before they found a different way out, and it was very soon after he was taken captive that he got Emma's name, so it seems like WRumple should have had a way to get out of that cell when the curse wasn't cast.

Come to think of it, has WHook tried squid ink on the tower?

[Camera One]

3 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

He didn't even seem to get a chance to learn how to use the hook or practice on it with Rumple's cage.

Whook asked WRumple how to use it, and then he was interrupted by Ahad.  But the duel was the next day, so after Ahad left, why didn't Whook ask WRumple how to use the fish hook?  Just because we cut away doesn't mean the characters have to freeze in position, but that's how these Writers operate.

[Shanna Marie]

42 minutes ago, Camera One said:

But the duel was the next day, so after Ahad left, why didn't Whook ask WRumple how to use the fish hook?  Just because we cut away doesn't mean the characters have to freeze in position, but that's how these Writers operate.

I didn't even catch that the duel was the next day. So why was WRumple so upset about WHook agreeing to the duel? It sounded like WHook was going to run off right then, before freeing WRumple, and thus WRumple's moaning about how it was a bad idea. If it's the next day, then WHook has plenty of time to free WRumple, so why would WRumple care about WHook fighting a duel with Ahab? He'd be free, and his enemy might be dead. It would be a good thing for him, all around. Unless WHook got so sidetracked that he ran off before he freed WRumple, which would just be silly.

So, did WHook free WRumple between scenes, or not? Wouldn't it have been kind of cool to see Maui's hook being used and to have had the whole thing have any point whatsoever? Or was WHook put in standby mode between scenes, so that he was unable to do anything after the duel challenge and before the duel, even though it was the next day?

[Rumsy4]

8 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

So, did WHook free WRumple between scenes, or not?

Presumably he did not, as WRumple was still in the cell during the S6 Wish Realm episodes. 

56 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Just because we cut away doesn't mean the characters have to freeze in position, but that's how these Writers operate.

This is the kind of thing that take you out of the story. The writers treat the characters as puppets, and don't put them in any kind of realistic situation. So, the characters do freeze until the next scene they're in. 

8 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Wouldn't it have been kind of cool to see Maui's hook being used and to have had the whole thing have any point whatsoever?

The writers are allergic to fun or objects having any relevance to the overall arc or even to the episode they're introduced in. Remember Snowing's magic baby tree thing? Gone in a second even though the idiots spent the whole episode looking for it, and we even had a stupid flashback to introduce it. 

Edited March 20, 2018 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

This is the kind of thing that take you out of the story. The writers treat the characters as puppets, and don't put them in any kind of realistic situation. So, the characters do freeze until the next scene they're in. 

Characters get frozen for entire episodes, or even entire arcs. That's one major flaw with their ongoing centric format. All the characters have to do is mention some of the offscreenies so we know they still exist. "Tilly gave us the information on the baker" or "I'm having dinner with Sabine tonight, she's making jambalaya".

Edited March 20, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[tennisgurl]

When Tilly showed up, I honestly was like "oh yeah, shes on this show" and it took me a second to remember what her deal was. And she is one of the newbies that I've actually liked! Thats what happens when you totally ignore characters and plots for weeks on end, especially after a hiatus. You run the risk of losing momentum and losing focus, and you end up with a bunch of characters that only seem to exist when the plot needs them to exist, and it makes it harder to get invested in them. Like, if you were interested in the twist last week with Naveen and Tiana, well too freaking bad, thats not coming up next week! Like I said, its a momentum killer. 

But, I guess thats what you get when everything is PLOT PLOT PLOT and you dont spend enough time on character stuff. 

[KingOfHearts]

24 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

But, I guess thats what you get when everything is PLOT PLOT PLOT and you dont spend enough time on character stuff. 

That's the funny thing about S7 - there's both a lot of plot and there isn't hardly any at all. Like S6, there's a lot of moving parts and pointless subplots to keep the audience confused. It's a way of making the show look complex or like there's a crazy amount going on. All the added characters are just fluff to keep it appearing busy. Instead of trying to get viewers engaged into a plot, the writers decide to distract them with another. It's a big juggling game. 

At least for the past few episodes, there's been some sense of urgency or tension. The first half was super slow. Now in the first three episodes of the second, we've got: Gothel murdering Victoria and saving Lucy, Dr. Facilier stirring up trouble, and Tilly being framed for killing a witch. You can feel the tension from the awakened characters. It's not just a S1 redux any more.

Quote

When Tilly showed up, I honestly was like "oh yeah, shes on this show" and it took me a second to remember what her deal was. 

Also - where the heck is Nick? His daughter gets saved from the brink of death, and he just disappears?

Edited March 21, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

19 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Also - where the heck is Nick? His daughter gets saved from the brink of death, and he just disappears?

The easiest way for Lucy to put the kibosh on Jacinda and Henry is to say she REALLY wants to get to know her successful lawyer dad and go away, loser Henry.

[Mabinogia]

10 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

That's the funny thing about S7 - there's both a lot of plot and there isn't hardly any at all. Like S6, there's a lot of moving parts and pointless subplots to keep the audience confused.

Yep, there is a lot of wheel spinning that is getting us nowhere. I just feel like they threw a lot of ideas out there, everything they've ever wanted to do, knowing this might be it, but now they don't have time to really go into any of it, or build relationships or characters, so they are rushing through all their plots to get to the end.

[Camera One]

This is continuing the discussion in the "All Seasons" Thread, about Season 7.

A&E had to tread a thin line if they really wanted to do a successful requel instead of a spinoff or a sequel, but they totally went off the line.

They approached it the way they did the Wonderland spinoff, except they didn't give this requel its best chance because of all the original "favorites" they kept in the show.  

In the Wonderland spinoff, there were five main characters and they all got screentime and development.  In Season 7, we got these new characters AND they had to share screentime with Regina, Rumple, Whook and now Zelena (not to mention the two episodes at the start of the season to wrap up Emma and Belle).  This resulted in new characters with less time for us to get to know/connect with and they're paper-thin in development (of course, a lot of that has to do with bad casting as well).

If we do equivalencies with the Wonderland characters, Victoria was the Red Queen, Gothel was Jafar.  But then, look at the "good" guys... Henry might be Cyrus, Jacinda could be Alice... that would make Lucy as Will.  Right there, you could see the weakness in the team of protagonists.  And neither Henry nor Lucy could truly have an interesting backstory because we already know most of it.  On top of the five main characters, Season 7 also had Drizella, Tiana and Alice.  So in addition to the returning "favorites", you had 8 new characters to juggle.  And now into 7B, there's also Anastasia, Robyn, Dr. Facilier and Naveen.  

It was pretty much a recipe for disaster from the start.  If they had to bring back Regina, Rumple, Rook and Relena, then they needed to keep the main characters to a smaller core of 4, so each of them could get enough screentime and a decision they had to make was whether they wanted to focus on the old or the new.  Instead, they decided to do both and failed on both counts.

Edited March 21, 2018 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

On top of the five main characters, Season 7 also had Drizella, Tiana and Alice.  So in addition to the returning "favorites", you had 8 new characters to juggle.  And now into 7B, there's also Anastasia, Robyn, Dr. Facilier and Naveen.  

And worse than that, all these characters have fairly complex arcs that are bringing in other characters.

Just look at romantic relationships. In season one, we had the main relationship of Snow and Charming. Rumple and Belle got one episode, and it wasn't an arc in that season. Grumpy and Nova got one episode, and it wasn't an arc. It seemed like there would be a Regina/Graham/Emma triangle, but that got killed quickly (literally). So, for the most part, it was just Snow and Charming, with the complications in Storybrooke. That meant their relationship was rather well developed and we saw all the key moments. This season, there's Henry and Jacinda as supposedly the central relationship. But now we've also got Regina and Facilier, Zelena and her "normal" fiance, Alice and Robyn, and possibly Naveen and Tiana. None of them are developed at all. We skipped straight from the first adventure together that led to the first kiss to Henry and Ella being married and having a kid. We don't have that many episodes to go, and the most we've seen of Regina and Facilier and Robyn and Alice is one kiss. We haven't met the fiance yet.

Then there are the villains. It started with it looking like Victoria was the villain, but then we learned it was really Drizella. But wait, it was really Gothel pulling her strings. And now there's Facilier -- is he behind Gothel or opposed to her? That gives us four (so far) arc villain characters in one season, and we haven't really gotten into the Coven and the black gloves person.

In season one, there was really just the one core plot of Regina and the curse, and any secondary plots were kind of simple, like Ruby and Granny working out their relationship or Archie finding his conscience to stand up to Regina. In this season, just about every character has some kind of subplot. Rumple/Weaver is trying to find the Guardian, which ties into Victoria trying to raise Anastasia, but that ties into Ivy and Gothel working together and Lucy being put into a coma. WHook is trying to find Alice and break the curse that keeps them apart, which ties back to Gothel, while Rogers was trying to find the missing girl who turned out to be Gothel, who's now manipulating him and seemingly framing Tilly, so Rogers is trying to clear Tilly's name by finding the real killer. Sabine wants to start a food truck but is being sabotaged by Facilier, using Naveen, while Facilier's sleeping with Regina. Really, the only characters who don't have some kind of complicated, interwoven plot going on are Henry and Jacinda, who are supposed to be at the core of the cast for this season. The secondary characters all have this intricate interrelationship of subplots that seem to tie back into the main plot (whatever the hell the main plot actually is), but the central characters don't really have anything going on. They're not trying to do anything and nobody seems to really care what they're doing. At this point in the story, Henry and Jacinda could go on an extended vacation, and it wouldn't affect any of the ongoing story lines.

[Camera One]

3 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

We skipped straight from the first adventure together that led to the first kiss to Henry and Ella being married and having a kid. We don't have that many episodes to go, and the most we've seen of Regina and Facilier and Robyn and Alice is one kiss. We haven't met the fiance yet.

Considering they are the main couple, it is very weird.  In the Wonderland spinoff, Alice and Cyrus getting together was the main thrust of the present-day storyline, though interestingly enough, Henry and Jacinda has had more flashback episodes together.  So maybe it's less to do with screentime?

It's almost funny that we've had two episodes that flashed back to Lucy as a baby in 7B already (in the Zelena centric and the Tiana centric) and both times, Henry and Jacinda with the baby are window dressing in the background.  Once married, they've had zero conflict together and we didn't even see how they together dealt with Drizella's not!prophesy announcement.  

[Shanna Marie]

26 minutes ago, Camera One said:

In the Wonderland spinoff, Alice and Cyrus getting together was the main thrust of the present-day storyline, though interestingly enough, Henry and Jacinda has had more flashback episodes together.  So maybe it's less to do with screentime?

It's how the screentime is used. Henry and Jacinda haven't actually done much of anything in their flashback episodes together. There was the premiere, where he tried to help her, she punched him and stole his motorcycle, and he helped her escape from the ball. Then there was the episode in which he didn't do much but sleep while she contemplated stealing his heart. And there was their Wonderland trip. But that's really it. The rest of the flashbacks that have involved them just had them more or less in the background or had one of them off doing something. But when Alice and Cyrus had flashbacks together, they were really about them and about the progression of their relationship.

And now you've made me want to rewatch Wonderland again. I wish they'd put that series on DVD, and I hope it's still streaming on the ABC app. I guess I should buy it from Amazon.

I think season 7 would have worked better if they'd limited the number of new characters and really connected them to the old characters. If the people we already liked were tied to the new people, that might have bonded us all better. So, say, have Jacinda already working for Roni and like a surrogate daughter/little sister to her. Have Rogers be the "Officer Friendly" type Lucy has bonded with. He's got a soft spot for girls without a father around, but she thinks based on her book that he's her step-grandfather. I know Zelena's popular, but she isn't adding anything but more clutter to the plot while messing up the timeline with Robyn's presence. Limit the romantic relationships to Henry and Jacinda, and develop it. Otherwise, focus Tilly/Alice on her dad, Regina on her family, and Sabine/Tiana as Jacinda/Ella's friend (and actually develop that relationship -- we've seen some of Jacinda and Sabine, but nothing really that looks like a developing friendship between Tiana and Jacinda).

[Rumsy4]

The WHook/Alice plot seems like the most planned-out arc of the season, and that's odd, because Whook had to have been an afterthought when JMo decided not to renew. 

What's Rumple/Weaver even contributing so far other than being a sort of protective figure for Rogers and Tilly? The Guardian plot, even though it sounded dumb, should have been expanded.

The Henriella arc is beyond salvage, and am not sure what they could have done better. It needed a complete overhaul, including casting decisions. 

Did Roni need a romance this season? Lbr...would Lana really have refused to sign on without the promised romance? What has Regina even done this season, apart from teaching Ivy magic and casting the Dark Curse?

Tiana/Sabine was unnecessary, even if the actress was one of the better ones of the new cast. She should've played Henry's LI. I'm not sure how relevant Naveen and Facilier are going to turn out to be, in the grand scheme of things.

The whole Rapunzel arc was utterly pointless in hindsight. Gothel could've been introduced via the WHook storyline alone. Anastasia is likely not going to turn out to be the Guardian (I'm pretty sure it's Alice). Also, they needed to reveal Gothel's goal in the first half of the season. The coathanger coven seems utterly irrelevant. 

There's just way too much clutter, as usual. 

Edited March 21, 2018 by Rumsy4

[ParadoxLost]

3 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

The WHook/Alice plot seems like the most planned-out arc of the season, and that's odd, because Whook had to have been an afterthought when JMo decided not to renew. 

A&E came up with a pitch for S7 that they set up in the S6 finale.  Since JMo decided not to renew, how Hook would be involved wasn't set up in the finale.

I think they changed their mind over the summer on what they wanted to do.  That meant they had to adjust and unwind the stuff they set up in the finale so its a gigantic mess.  But they likely couldn't do it from the first episode because it would make promotion a nightmare.  I can't think if how they could have used anything else they have done this season to get viewers to at least sample the first couple episodes.  Its too convoluted and twisted up.  Henry and AU Cinderella was easy for commercials and press releases to explain.

Its feeling like they were wading through this Cinderella/Henry stuff with the desire to get to the Gothel stuff.  Given that WHook wasn't necessary to the Henry /Cinderella stuff and had no S6 set up baggage, he was able to just start down the story arc they were planning to transition to from the beginning so it seems like its the most thought out.

[CCTC]

31 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

That meant they had to adjust and unwind the stuff they set up in the finale so its a gigantic mess. 

Looking back at the season 6 finale - Lucy running through the war-torn woods, things in chaos, looking for her father(or was she actually looking for her mother when Tiger Lily found her), does that match at all how things were the showed the curse cast this season?

Also what was Tiger Lily doing in the alternate Cinderella realm -- can fairies just cross realms without any problems?

[Camera One]

3 minutes ago, CCTC said:

Also what was Tiger Lily doing in the alternate Cinderella realm -- can fairies just cross realms without any problems?

They didn't explain that at all.  It seems like they brought the actress back for the 7A finale just because.  

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

They didn't explain that at all.  It seems like they brought the actress back for the 7A finale just because.  

She was in the S6 finale, which is why they had to bring her back. It was an effort to explain the flashbacks from 6x22. What's also strange is that when Henry and Lucy were attacked in the hovel, it appeared that Henry was attacked by some big monster or something. But nope - it was the Coat Hangers I guess? It's painfully obvious the writers had no idea where they were going with those flashbacks, because the efforts in 7x10 to reconcile them with S7 made no sense.

Edited March 22, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

8 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

She was in the S6 finale, which is why they had to bring her back. It was an effort to explain the flashbacks from 6x22. 

 

I vaguely remembered her in the S6 finale but I wasn't sure.  I don't remember what new information she added when she returned this season, though.  I think she said something about the oldest tree in the forest.  So she knows all about the trees in the Disenchanted Forest too?  

Edited March 22, 2018 by Camera One