S06.E22: Valiant

[John Potts]

Quote

 

Jake and Nog, on a visit to Ferenginar, find themselves on board a rogue starship, piloted Red Squad, a crew of elite Starfleet cadets.

 

There are some nice ideas here that I'm not sure quite gel together to make a good episode: I can't help feeling that if this was "our heroes", they would have succeeded in destroying the ship. But the idea of the crew that are cracking up and turning fascist would be developed (and how!) on Ron Moore's BSG. But the way the crew is clearly cracking up under the pressure was nicely handled (popping pills, not sleeping, crying) without being too blatant.

I'm not sure if Jake is meant to be a good writer, but as somebody who should be good with words, he totally misplayed Captain Watters. The guy is clearly convinced of his own brilliance, so telling him that your dad is better than him is unlikely to work. Tell him that their mission was to get the sensor readings, which they'd achieved in spite of all the difficulties. It's not just about stopping this ship, it's about learning the weaknesses of the entire class of ship, so getting that info back to Starfleet is more important than blowing up this ship. This "tactical genius" of a Captain ought to appreciate that!

[readster]

6 hours ago, John Potts said:

There are some nice ideas here that I'm not sure quite gel together to make a good episode: I can't help feeling that if this was "our heroes", they would have succeeded in destroying the ship. But the idea of the crew that are cracking up and turning fascist would be developed (and how!) on Ron Moore's BSG. But the way the crew is clearly cracking up under the pressure was nicely handled (popping pills, not sleeping, crying) without being too blatant.

I'm not sure if Jake is meant to be a good writer, but as somebody who should be good with words, he totally misplayed Captain Watters. The guy is clearly convinced of his own brilliance, so telling him that your dad is better than him is unlikely to work. Tell him that their mission was to get the sensor readings, which they'd achieved in spite of all the difficulties. It's not just about stopping this ship, it's about learning the weaknesses of the entire class of ship, so getting that info back to Starfleet is more important than blowing up this ship. This "tactical genius" of a Captain ought to appreciate that!

How true, and what happened when they tried to use that "weakness" nothing. The ship was still standing and tore the Valiant apart. I thought it was handled very well on "too young" to be a hero and Nog's speech at the end was good. In the end though, it was Red Squad's arrogance that got them all killed and I do mean all killed.

[iMonrey]

I thought the whole concept behind this episode was a real stretch. Even Nog and Jake should have recognized that none of these kids had the authority to do what they were doing. The whole thing was very twee. 

[Melgaypet]

You'd think Nog would realize that he, in fact, outranked everyone on that ship. I mean, I can sort of buy it - Waters was (supposedly) a charismatic individual, Nog was insecure and once badly wanted to be in Red Squad - but mostly not.

Which reminds me, I also don't understand why Red Squad even exists at this point. Last we heard, they were part of an unsuccessful coup d'état! At the very least, Starfleet should have disbanded them.

A flawed episode. I admire what it was trying to do...but it didn't succeed.

[John Potts]

1 hour ago, Melgaypet said:

You'd think Nog would realize that he, in fact, outranked everyone on that ship..

Which reminds me, I also don't understand why Red Squad even exists at this point.

Legally, it may be true that Nog has the highest official rank - but I doubt anyone on that ship would accept his authority over "their" Captain. I suspect if Nog tried to assert his de jure authority, he would find himself in the brig (or worse).

Somebody actually worked out the dates and found that it's possible that Red Squad had been sent on this mission before the events of Paradise Lost/Homefront (my Google-fu let me down when I tried to find that again). Why Starfleet would send Cadets on a high risk, behind the lines mission in a top of the line warship is another matter!

[blueray]

It couldn't be before because the one character was brought back from those episodes. If I remember correctly they were already on their original mission which was go around the federation boarder. But they were caught near Cardasion Territory when the war broke out. Of course all the senior officers on board were killed which seems unlikely.

[readster]

4 hours ago, blueray said:

It couldn't be before because the one character was brought back from those episodes. If I remember correctly they were already on their original mission which was go around the federation boarder. But they were caught near Cardasion Territory when the war broke out. Of course all the senior officers on board were killed which seems unlikely.

Yes, being by the border when the war broke out, that I get. However, to have every single senior officer dead? Especially aboard a defiant class war ship. That really was stretching it. 

[NicoleQueen]

I think this episode may take the cake for the "Most Frustrating/Unrealistic/Etc Episode of Star Trek" for me.

We've seen plenty of senseless admirals and ambassadors, but who in the FUCKING HELL would staff a state-of-the-art warship to circumnavigate the entire Federation (which would take way more than mere 3 months) with absolutely inexperienced cadets 5:1 (some of which are seventeen years old), have them maintain strict radio silence and don't require any communication from them while they are roaming Dominion space, spying on a Dominion ship during a Dominion-centered war. This is the biggest headscratcher I've encountered in the entire ST verse thus far.

The Red Squad are full of someone informed ability, hype and bullshit that it's surprising they didn't run into a problem with the waste extraction system. They give those kids everything and make them out to be like fucking gods in Starfleet, where everyone (as well as pretty much anyone who enlists on starships) has to be like a Mensa genius at the very least and yet, they even lack common sense and think they can cheat death. Now, this may be common among youngsters who are constantly put on a pedestal as being "the best of the best" but that's not behaviour which would benefit anyone in Starfleet. And what's up with them all being cadets? Kirk (who in the TNG/DS9 timeline would have easily been part of the Red Squad) was good enough to get a field assignment as Ensign but none of those overhyped arrogant kids have had any minimum experience prior to putting them on such an important and dangerous mission where they outnumber experienced officers? Fucking hell, because "they are special". "First officer" barking at Jake that he shouldn't be bringing up home because they don't need people who want to be with mommy and daddy? Like, girl, all of you needed to be with mommy and daddy because you were the only entirely shitty crew in all the Trek verse (usually, other crew limit themselves to one or two unreasonable officers not everyone) and you had no business being there, instead of sensibly being stationed across a multitude of starships where the experienced officers are like few dozens to one.

Minor nitpicking - the "Captain" makes Nog from Ensign to Lt Commander to fill the needs, except the rank wouldn't have mattered as 1) Nog outranks them anyway, at least everyone bar the "Captain", 2) what kind of rank structure would they even have and how arbitary are their positions when they all started out as cadets, 3) rank doesn't equal position.

I only wish the "Captain" and "First officer" had survived to witness the death and destruction their behaviour brings.

Aggghh, I hate this episode with unrivaled passion.

Edited August 18, 2017 by NicoleQueen

[John Potts]

52 minutes ago, NicoleQueen said:

And what's up with them all being cadets? Kirk (who in the TNG/DS9 timeline would have easily been part of the Red Squad) was good enough to get a field assignment as Ensign but none of those overhyped arrogant kids have had any minimum experience prior to putting them on such an important and dangerous mission where they outnumber experienced officers? Fucking hell, because "they are special".

Considering Kirk went from cadet straight to Captain in the Abrams movies maybe not so inconsistent! That doesn't mean it isn't completely idiotic - as shown by the fact he then gets (briefly) demoted in the next movie.

[NicoleQueen]

1 hour ago, John Potts said:

Considering Kirk went from cadet straight to Captain in the Abrams movies maybe not so inconsistent! That doesn't mean it isn't completely idiotic - as shown by the fact he then gets (briefly) demoted in the next movie.

Don't even get me going on reboot!Kirk and his promotion. He would have fitted perfectly in the Red Squad.

Mind you, at the very least he helped save Earth/Federation so he still has more going on for him. And the reboot had some reason for staffing every cadet somewhere.

I could handwave a lot of things but the inconsistencies in rank/position/experience strongly bother me.

[readster]

3 hours ago, NicoleQueen said:

Don't even get me going on reboot!Kirk and his promotion. He would have fitted perfectly in the Red Squad.

Mind you, at the very least he helped save Earth/Federation so he still has more going on for him. And the reboot had some reason for staffing every cadet somewhere.

I could handwave a lot of things but the inconsistencies in rank/position/experience strongly bother me.

True and even that, you also had experience officers with them. Valiant had to really push believability to the limit. Having all senior officers dead. The entire Red Squad be that full of themselves and even at the end, to have Robin still believe it was their fault and not their captain was even more delusional. 

[Maverick]

 Every cadet was awful.   Lt. Crybaby from Luna apparently no agency of her own.  And no common sense.  First Officer McPrissy must have majored in being a bitch at the Academy (who knew it was a career path).   Lt. From Season Four' Paradise Lost (how dd he stay in Starfleet much less Red Squad and taking out Earth's power grid again?) was channeling Snidley Whiplash.  And then there's Captain Koresh, who thinks his crew chanting about how awesome them are is just so sweet.  Yeah, best and brightest my ass.

[readster]

Something that proved inconsistent through the series was the Dominion's ships. In the season 2 finale when they had the ones taking hits and not even inflicting damaging and then being caught by surprise in season 3 when the Defiant used its advanced phaser and quantum torpedos the Dominion's ships were usually getting destroyed in one or two hits. Even at the end of season 5 when Wyumm went: "No Federation base or ship has lasted this long against our weapons." I wanted to go: "Usually if it was Sisko doing the shooting, your ships were being destroyed left and right. We also didn't see as many suicide runs after season 2. Yet, here, we see the Valiant using its weapons and the war cruiser pretty much looking like it was destroyed and then: "HA! I'm fine!" Followed a few episodes later and those war ships were taking hits, but were getting destroyed after a little while. So, Dominion ships were only easy to destroy when the plot demanded it. 

[John Potts]

1 hour ago, readster said:

Dominion ships were only easy to destroy when the plot demanded it. 

It's a well known effect that putting a main character aboard a ship makes it's shields 100% more effective and the guns at least 50% more effective (and not just in Trek).

[rmontro]

On 8/3/2017 at 1:57 PM, Melgaypet said:

You'd think Nog would realize that he, in fact, outranked everyone on that ship. I mean, I can sort of buy it - Waters was (supposedly) a charismatic individual, Nog was insecure and once badly wanted to be in Red Squad - but mostly not.

We've seen on Trek before though, that the captain of the ship pretty much has final say.  If there is a higher ranking officer present, that officer has to make a formal declaration that he is taking over the ship.  And even then, we've seen captains override that in situations - albeit at the risk of facing a court marshal when they return to Starfleet.  And I certainly don't recall seeing anyone of Nog's rank taking over a ship - usually that is a move done by admirals or other captains.

I don't really find this episode to be as unbelievable as some.  It reminded me of stories in Vietnam where the commanding officer would be killed, and a younger soldier would take over command until their mission was accomplished.  That said, it's a long season, and I've noticed the last few episodes have kind of a rushed feeling to them, like they didn't have time to fully develop them.

One other thing:  Nog makes a statement to Jake that he is the Chief Engineer of the Valiant, and Jake tells him "I'll put that on your tombstone".  I had a hard time overlooking that if Nog was killed, Jake was very much likely to be killed along with him.