S03.E02: Episode 2

[Meredith Quill]

Episode Synopsis:

As Elizabeth becomes more ambivalent about Valentine, George courts Sir Francis Basset for the vacant magistracy position. Ross is reintroduced to Tholly Tregirls, an old friend of his father's and a ne'er-do-well who has returned to area. Verity returns to Trenwith, awaiting word from her husband, Andrew, whose ship is en route to Lisbon, while Elizabeth feels the sting of Morwenna and Geoffrey Charles's connection.

[Tommy46]

I can't wait

[NorthstarATL]

Elizabeth is just the worst, while Agatha is again the best. I am assuming she is too frail for travel, because I wanted Verity to at least offer to get her out of the house; but, then, her purpose in life at this point is to needle George and Elizabeth at every turn, and I DO enjoy watching her do so! Demelza was right, as usual, that Ross opted out of the justice position running too quickly. He AND the people could use a little power, and George will use anything at hand to continue his petty tyrannies. The show does such a great job with subtle and unsubtle glances and stares between the characters and the Warleggens and Poldarks were shooting looks at each other throughout the episode that could kill. I am also a sucker for a starcrossed lovers thing, and Drake and Morwenna are too cute as they continue a flirtation despite their families being enemies. Poor Dwight and Carline, though. Things aren't looking good, but Ross is on his way, and they wouldn't be going there if Dwight were a lost cause. Right?

[Misslindsey]

9 hours ago, NorthstarATL said:

Elizabeth is just the worst, while Agatha is again the best. I am assuming she is too frail for travel, because I wanted Verity to at least offer to get her out of the house; but, then, her purpose in life at this point is to needle George and Elizabeth at every turn, and I DO enjoy watching her do so!

This. So much of this! I could watch Agatha make her side comments to Elizabeth and George all day! I cannot remember the comment that Agatha made when Verity said Valentine favored Elizabeth, but it made me laugh. I felt so bad for Agatha when Verity left.

I like Drake and Morwenna as well. I find myself really liking Geoffrey Charles and I do not even like kids.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Misslindsey

[Llywela]

19 minutes ago, Misslindsey said:

I like Drake and Morwenna as well. I find myself really liking Geoffrey Charles and I do not even like kids.

Having read all 12 novels, I can state without reservation that Geoffrey Charles is hands down my favourite Poldark of them all, beating even Demelza into second place - I'm delighted with this version of him so far, he's perfect!

My other book-reader thoughts will be kept for the Poldark: Now, Then and Before thread.

[LiveenLetLive]

Of course Ross keeps making bone head moves that will bite him in the ass eventually--not accepting the magistrate position leaving the people of the area vulnerable to the "tender mercies" of George. I understand that the character of Elizabeth represents that urge in some men to protect a woman, BUT was she written this bland in the books? I think that Reed is a slight improvement over the '70's Elizabeth who was an even blander cypher, it is still hard to wrap my head around the fact that Ross was passionately in love with her at one time.

[Llywela]

3 minutes ago, LiveenLetLive said:

Of course Ross keeps making bone head moves that will bite him in the ass eventually--not accepting the magistrate position leaving the people of the area vulnerable to the "tender mercies" of George. I understand that the character of Elizabeth represents that urge in some men to protect a woman, BUT was she written this bland in the books? I think that Reed is a slight improvement over the '70's Elizabeth who was an even blander cypher, it is still hard to wrap my head around the fact that Ross was passionately in love with her at one time.

Elizabeth is a very passive character in all versions of the story, and the novels also give very little insight into what goes on in her head, which can make it hard to understand her motivations and feelings at times - but what we do get tends to be quite telling.

I'm actually enjoying her story this season - which was also true when I read the novels, as I recall. Elizabeth is at her most interesting after her marriage to George - she is still very passive in many ways, but also seems to have more to kick against, in subtle ways. Or perhaps it's just that her internal struggles become more clear-cut and thus more relatable, somehow.

[NorthstarATL]

Elizabeth has always made sense to me. She was pushed by her mother and Society into a position that required her to marry well, and she lucked into a situation where the man she was destined to marry was in fact someone whom she fell for, in Ross, and likewise he her. She's been passive to the extent that circumstances beyond her control took that option away (Ross being presumed dead), and steered her toward Francis, and his struggles became hers. I actually admired her for standing by Francis, and even her attempts at friendship with Demelza. Her playing hapless victim and damsel in distress after Francis' death to keep Ross' attention made me dislike her intensely, but I could understand what she was doing and why. She's been very calculated and hardly passive throughout most of the story, in fact, even down to her timing the fall last episode. I cannot stand her any longer, mostly because her decisions place her children and Agatha in harm's way. It was one thing when it was just her, but quite another now.

  But I liked the fact that the triangle initially made none of the three "villainous", and that's very difficult to do. I hope that having Dwight missing, BTW, does not result in reprise of that situation, by having Caroline forced into marrying someone else, only to have Dwight miraculously reappear! They are already a kind of gender reversed version of Ross and Demelza without adding that aspect as well!

[Llywela]

Caroline can't be forced into marrying anyone - she is of age and in control of her own fortune, and now that her uncle is dead she inherits his entire fortune and estate. Her uncle couldn't force her to marry even when she was a minor in his care, although he certainly could bring pressure to bear on her, but she is now a completely free agent, in control of her own destiny, and has already made her choice.

I agree that Elizabeth can be very calculating, but her role within the story tends to be very passive. While Verity and Caroline go out and pursues an illicit relationship with the men they want, and Demelza goes out and about working hard to keep her household afloat, Elizabeth tends to sit pretty in her big house fretting about her circumstances but not actually doing much to change them. Her personality tends to be reactive rather than proactive. And that's a position I can sympathise with, actually, because given her background and upbringing she is pretty much trapped, in many ways, and doesn't have the wherewithal to see beyond what she knows to explore any other possibilities...but it's also not a position that's easy to empathise with, especially contrasted against the more proactive characters of the other women in this story.

[Jacks-Son]

God, can George be any more petty? (I know that is how the character is written, but damn, ease up man. There are people that despise you) I loved that little comment from Aunt Agatha that perhaps Ross WAS offered the Magistrate position and that, AGAIN, he (George) comes in 2nd place. I wish someone would do me the favor of killing George's uncle. Is he married? Or does he just love his dog? Even Garrick would never eat at the table.  While I agree with Demelza that Ross acted hastily in declining the offer (ideally, he should have first consulted with Demelza as she has more common sense than Ross), his decision affects her and their family. Also, this trip to France is neither wise nor smart. Demelza is pregnant and he should start taking her into consideration first, before he makes these kinds of decisions.

I haven't seen the original series in quite some time, but can somebody remind me why Elizabeth is ambivalent towards Valentine? Does he remind her of Ross and his betrayal? Also, I've been of the opinion that Elizabeth deliberately took measures to ensure the early delivery of Valentine, but could she have been intending a miscarriage or a still birth?

George was right about one thing though, you can see how Demelza moves around, that she is confident and in charge. Even Verity and Caroline seem to defer to her. 

Drake and Morwenna? Meh!  More trouble brewing. I'm really not interested in them. Nor am I interested in Sam Carne. Zacky was right, he should keep his head down and his mouth closed.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Jacks-Son

[nodorothyparker]

This episode did a nice job of making Francis's absence felt throughout nearly every storyline.  It's his death that opens the door for George to marry Elizabeth and take over the Poldark role as leader and patron of the local church, as well as end up with what had traditionally been the Poldark seat on the magistrate bench.  It's why Agatha and now Verity feel almost like outsiders in what had been their family home, and why Geoffrey Charles has to practically sneak around to visit his favorite area beach on land belonging to what are now permanently estranged family members.   Despite all his made wealth, George is the perennial runner-up to both Ross and Francis and can't ever get past the fact that everyone knows it.

As long as Francis was around, Ross had a ready-made excuse as part of the cadet branch of the family to make no effort to step up and fulfill the noblesse oblige role that local gentry in these situations were usually expected to play.  So if he wanted to make hasty or foolhardy decisions, that mostly only affected members of his immediate household and the people who worked for him.  But now with Francis gone, he knows still shirking that obligation is largely leaving the common folk at the mercies of George's unending pettiness and he still can't be bothered to at least consider the larger ramifications for five minutes or maybe discuss it with the cooler more rational head he married.  He's barely made that hasty decision before he makes the next one to take off to France.

Elizabeth is resentful that her importance as Geoffrey Charles's mother is being usurped by Morwenna as his governess, which George arranged against her wishes with the expectation that she would devote all her attention to Valentine.  I'm sure the circumstances of Valentine's conception don't help.  Because of the timing of her wedding after that, she pretty much had no choice but to pass the baby off as a premature birth.

The Carne brothers are no less tiresome on the screen than they were on the page and all the pretty shirtless shots of them frolicking in the ocean don't change that.

[Jacks-Son]

59 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Elizabeth is resentful that her importance as Geoffrey Charles's mother is being usurped by Morwenna as his governess, which George arranged against her wishes with the expectation that she would devote all her attention to Valentine.  I'm sure the circumstances of Valentine's conception don't help.  Because of the timing of her wedding after that, she pretty much had no choice but to pass the baby off as a premature birth.

The Carne brothers are no less tiresome on the screen than they were in the page and all the pretty shirtless shots of them frolicking in the ocean don't change that.

Your post is spot on with how I see things and I commend your insight with regard to the ramifications of Ross' lack of commitment to the community. In short, Ross talks a good game but there's no follow through.

While I know Elizabeth was trying to ensure an early birth to hide the possibility that George is not the father. Her methods to achieve that end were extremely dangerous. That ridiculous horse ride could have ended in tragedy; hence my question of whether it was just an attempt to achieve a premature delivery or something more deadly. Still, I don't understand why she holds any animosity towards Valentine; the child is not at fault for its birth nor in the manner that it was conceived. The fall down the stairs was just an act. She was experiencing contractions and had a more rational idea to throw the vase down the stairs and to stage a mock accident. Much safer that, than a fall from a horse or a severe trauma from the shaking. I believe that's why she was so angry with Ross when he interfered. Of course George, as usual, issued his pompous and bizarre edict of telling Ross to stay away from his wife and child. Now, if it's your belief that Elizabeth is merely irritated with Valentine because George is using the baby to distract her from attending to Geoffrey Charles, then I can understand her displeasure. However, she needs to take that displeasure out on George and his silly machinations.

I've been re-watching series one and really miss the days when both Verity AND Elizabeth came to admire and care for Demelza. As always, I seem to return to my favorite scenes in the first series when Demelza makes her first appearance in the dining room at House Trenwith on Christmas Eve (like a Boss!) and again at her first dance when she descends the stairs and all male eyes stare at her. Honestly, Eleanor Tomlinson has the acting skills to pull off that command of presence that Heida Reed may lack.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Jacks-Son

[Llywela]

11 hours ago, Jacks-Son said:

While I know Elizabeth was trying to ensure an early birth to hide the possibility that George is not the father. Her methods to achieve that end were extremely dangerous. That ridiculous horse ride could have ended in tragedy; hence my question of whether it was just an attempt to achieve a premature delivery or something more deadly. Still, I don't understand why she holds any animosity towards Valentine; the child is not at fault for its birth nor in the manner that it was conceived. The fall down the stairs was just an act. She was experiencing contractions and had a more rational idea to throw the vase down the stairs and to stage a mock accident. Much safer that, than a fall from a horse or a severe trauma from the shaking. I believe that's why she was so angry with Ross when he interfered. Of course George, as usual, issued his pompous and bizarre edict of telling Ross to stay away from his wife and child. Now, if it's your belief that Elizabeth is merely irritated with Valentine because George is using the baby to distract her from attending to Geoffrey Charles, then I can understand her displeasure. However, she needs to take that displeasure out on George and his silly machinations.

It sometimes happens that a mother is unable to bond with her baby, for all kinds of reasons, especially if that baby has been born in traumatic circumstances. It isn't the baby's fault, of course, but it does happen. For Elizabeth, Valentine is almost a symbol of everything that's gone wrong in her life. He was conceived in traumatic circumstances - Ross forced his way into her room and forced himself upon her, she might have gone along with it once it became inevitable, but there's no getting away from the initial violence of the act. That in itself would be enough to generate her ambivalence toward the child. Add to that everything that's happened since - she had to live through months of doubt and fear over the paternity of her child, knowing that if George ever suspected it might not be his, he could destroy her life, which would also destroy the lives of her children and everyone else dependent on her, such as Agatha. The baby coming early, proving his suspect paternity, was her worst nightmare come true. Ross has abandoned her to George, who trapped her into a marriage she agreed to in the main out of desperation, she feels she is losing her beloved older son, who has been the centre of her universe ever since his birth but has now bonded with his new governess leaving her out in the cold. And so on. There could even be a touch of post-natal depression in the mix as well. With all those stresses on top of one another, it really isn't that surprising that Elizabeth is struggling to bond with the baby.

[Jacks-Son]

7 minutes ago, Llywela said:

He was conceived in traumatic circumstances - Ross forced his way into her room and forced himself upon her, she might have gone along with it once it became inevitable, but there's no getting away from the initial violence of the act.

Ahhh, I tried to stay away from that controversy; that is why I wrote, "the child is not at fault for its birth nor in the manner that it was conceived." It IS a delicate topic among Poldark fans. Some say rape, some say belated passion (hah!). Although I have not read the books, I still have been aware of the differences between book and film. In the current perspective of the act, it was clearly rape, and I believe the books intimated that it was. The films, however, took a more lenient interpretation. Whatever one's opinion, I still cheered when Demelza knocked the crap out of Ross when he returned home. He so clearly deserved it, not only because Demelza asked him not to go, but also because he betrayed her trust AND made matters worse when he forced himself on Elizabeth.

[Llywela]

12 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

Ahhh, I tried to stay away from that controversy; that is why I wrote, "the child is not at fault for its birth nor in the manner that it was conceived." It IS a delicate topic among Poldark fans. Some say rape, some say belated passion (hah!). Although I have not read the books, I still have been aware of the differences between book and film. In the current perspective of the act, it was clearly rape, and I believe the books intimated that it was. The films, however, took a more lenient interpretation. Whatever one's opinion, I still cheered when Demelza knocked the crap out of Ross when he returned home. He so clearly deserved it, not only because Demelza asked him not to go, but also because he betrayed her trust AND made matters worse when he forced himself on Elizabeth.

The child may not be at fault, but try telling that to the emotions - such a complex tangle of circumstances he's been born into, and every time Elizabeth looks at him, she'll be reminded of that. Whether she consented to the sex in the end or not, it certainly started with a violent act as Ross forced himself into her room, which was then compounded by his complete abandonment of her after the act. And then with everything that's followed, no, it really doesn't surprise me that she can't bond with the baby. The head might logically know it isn't the child's fault, but the heart can't be forced, especially when there is so much stress and trauma involved.

[Jacks-Son]

Your point is well made and I can begin to see why Elizabeth may feel that way towards Valentine.  However, despite the size of the newborn Valentine (I know it's hard to cast a newborn just delivered, but that baby was THE largest newborn I've ever seen) it's still a newborn and she needs to take time to adjust.  I just would like her to show a little backbone now and then. She always seems to accept her lot as the victim while almost all the women around her are more assertive. Even Aunt Agatha has more fight in her than Elizabeth. Agatha, Verity, Caroline, and Demelza should be fine examples for Elizabeth, however, that's probably her character as defined by the author. 

I see you've already reached this conclusion when you posted: "I agree that Elizabeth can be very calculating, but her role within the story tends to be very passive. While Verity and Caroline go out and pursues an illicit relationship with the men they want, and Demelza goes out and about working hard to keep her household afloat, Elizabeth tends to sit pretty in her big house fretting about her circumstances but not actually doing much to change them. Her personality tends to be reactive rather than proactive. And that's a position I can sympathise with, actually, because given her background and upbringing she is pretty much trapped, in many ways, and doesn't have the wherewithal to see beyond what she knows to explore any other possibilities...but it's also not a position that's easy to empathise with, especially contrasted against the more proactive characters of the other women in this story."

Sorry I didn't see this post earlier, but you've summed it up nicely.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Jacks-Son

[ladylaw99]

I agreed with a lot that has been said.  I personally never warmed up to Elizabeth but, boy oh boy, I am really starting not to like her.  If she keeps it up I am going to start to think George and Elizabeth belong with eachother.  I heart did break a little for Aunt Agatha and Verity but I need Aunt Agatha there to stick it to George.  I really like Geoffrey Charles and the character that plays him.  I don't mind Drake and  Morwenna, they are young but this is not going to go smoothly.  I see trouble in the future.  Ross is Ross, act first, think second.