S05.E12: The World Council of Churches

[Sweet-tea]

I struggled to get through this episode. It was a snoozer to me. It just doesn't seem like much is happening this season. I wish they had gone in a different direction with Paige... or perhaps with Henry. I think it would have been more interesting if Paige had turned on them. Instead we see her become another Elizabeth, and one is enough for me. 

I would like to see less about Paige and more about Henry. He seems like an after thought to them. Another interesting plot development could have been that Henry has more spy potential than Paige, and it is revealed in a way that shocks his parents. Either that or he figures out they are spies and is vehemently opposed to the point of trying to bring them down. Just... please, surprise me with something. Make something bad happen to E and P. Throw them off their game. I want them to have some consequences for their actions, especially E. Maybe one of her operations goes horribly wrong or someone she is supposed to seduce is just not into her. I know she is pretty but please, give me something. Anything. Just stop rewarding her with the results she wants. 

I was bored by the Oleg stuff even though I like him as a character. I'm just not interested in that storyline. 

This has been the weakest season by far. It seems like a bridge that was haphazardly thrown together to get to the final season. 

Edited May 31, 2017 by Sweet-tea

[Hecate7]

On 5/23/2017 at 11:55 PM, Sarah 103 said:

Holding hands was them being united. Whatever happens, we'll get through this together. I don't think it was for the agent who was watching. 

The kid in season 2 and Paige are just the ones we know about. There may be a few other kids like Paige out there who haven't heard about. Either they've decided the second generation program is a bad idea, or they have no idea how good a spy Henry would be. 

There is another possibility. They could already be grooming Henry without anyone knowing it yet. They might even have approached him pretending to be FBI recruiters.

Edited June 3, 2017 by Hecate7

[sistermagpie]

22 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

There is another possibility. They could already be grooming Henry without anyone knowing it yet. They might even have approached him pretending to the FBI recruiters.

FBI recruiters coming to an eighth grader? I think Henry's really just a kid living his life.

[Hecate7]

34 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

FBI recruiters coming to an eighth grader? I think Henry's really just a kid living his life.

pretending to BE FBI recruiters. Sorry. Hey, a kid would believe them, and they wouldn't have to convince anyone else.

[Nash]

OK.....

Tim; I think he's lucky the job is in BA - I'd give him a 75% chance of survival (in post Falklands, post Junta Argentina) as opposed to Nicaragua or El Salvador where I'd give him 25% of making it home. And that's before the KGB think about offing him. 

Gennady; he's a walk in. Rule one - presume a walk in is a provocation until proven otherwise. I think she did the sensible soviet thing and spoke to the Rezidentura as soon as the FBI contacted her. Stan has good instincts and I think he knows this is heading south. Oh yes....If P&E are exposed, Stan isn't implicated, just moved to the S Dakota office investigating mail fraud until he resigns out of boredom. Unless he breaks the case. 

Tuan; yes he's a cold mission focused  one alright. Trauma and the war only goes so far - I felt revulsion at his plan. I think he may flip on P&E "they went soft on the hard option, comrade".  Though I was impressed that as soon as they hit the street P&E held hands and Tuan looked around a bit goofily (thus scoping out the area); the clown even walked on the grass.  The suicide plan isn't just repulsive it's bone stupid - that happens and all sorts of interviews take place - the very kind of stuff P&E need to avoid. So much for OpSec, Tuan. That's what P&E have on him.....and that's all. 

Oleg - he's heading for the gulag or the 9mm. Unless....he admits to a small misdemeanour that suggests he still has an angle to play on Stan. I don't know what angle but he kept it together under a grilling - they kept the phone book in the drawer of course - and he has the balls to sell it if he gets a chance. Once in the USA he can defect or not as he wishes; his problem is his parents. 

Henry - he's just a kid and isn't being recruited by anyone. Yet. 

As for P&E; any kind of heavyweight investigation will break their legends. If they fake deaths, leaving P&H in place, it has to be open and shut so no one goes digging.

Claudia? I wouldn't trust her with the paper last weeks fish and chips were wrapped in. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎24‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 6:33 AM, skippylou said:

I don't think the KGB was tipped on any of Oleg's treasonous activities, I'm guessing they are trying to frame him to get control of his father. 

No, KGB simply suspects that it wasn't a coincidence that Tatiana's operation failed and that it was Stan who was along arresting William. The obvious conclusion is that if Tatiana isn't guilty herself (and she is too intelligent to have made such an obvious error), she talked to someone who talked to FBI - and Oleg was Tatiana's lover and Stan's friend (they really suspect that their relationship was personal). One can really give KGB points - they managed better than Stan who doesn't seem to recall that he told Phillip about Gaad's journey to Thailand. 

Oleg succeeded well in the interrogation - he told the truth save one dangerouns point. He can survive if Tatiana doesn't reveal it. But it believe that she will - at leat if she suspects the truth: she believed in Oleg but she betrayed her trust and she lost her career prospect because of him.

On ‎24‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 4:12 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

I was confused as to why Paige threw away her cross necklace.  Just because Pastor Tim is leaving and that's a relief, you don't stop your love for God.  How could she have been so disrespectful as to throw a crucifix in the trash? 

Paige's religiosity seems to have been only a phase: originally she believed more in Pastor Tim than in God. For her, baptism was the greatest experience in her life. When she got real problems, her faith didn't help her, f.ex. when she tried to pray after Elizabeth's mother died. Of course, the Christian tradition would tell her that there are times when God is silent, but even Pastor Tim seems not to know it.

Whether Paige still believes in God or not, the cross is symbol that she was used in order to deceive Pastor Tim, just as she spent all evenings in the church. Throwing the cross away meant liberation: she wouldn't have to pretend any more. 

On ‎24‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 8:43 PM, sistermagpie said:

I disagree. Like I said, I appreciated the way Pastor Tim talked about the possibility without getting too hysterical about it. As someone who's into missionary work he would not see it as impossible for kids to adjust to incredibly different conditions after living in middle class US.

Obviously, it's not good to do this to either kid. Of course it would be a huge blow to them and a risk that they would never adjust well enough. But kids have been yanked to other countries--even oppressive ones--before and survived. Maybe they'd just wind up entering the 21st century as bilingual people who were more citizens of the world than they would have been going to St. Edwards and George Washington. I don't think this makes them blind about Henry, in particular. They can obviously see that he's got his life for the next few years planned out for himself at his ritzy boarding school with his girlfriend but he wouldn't be the first kid to be in that position and have it all fall apart and survive.

Pastor Tim was indeed just as a good councellor is. Like he said, both options - taking or leaving kids - can lead to problems.

The missionaries' children is a good comparation. I have heard that many had problems formerly when they were left in the bording school and they felt that God and their calling were more important to their parents than they.

We are many times before discussed that many children have had much worse experiences. Yet, in Henry's case the worst blow would be to learn about lying.  And of course, he can't anticipate how he can after the Soviet Union fell, benefit from bilingualism f.ex. by starting a company in Russia.    

Edited October 31, 2017 by Roseanna
The last sentence added.

[Roseanna]

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 1:04 AM, Umbelina said:

I have seen him wanting to accomplish his task from Elizabeth and the KGB, to prove himself to both.  He'll do that at any cost.

Yes, but proving oneself isn't a good motive. Tuan acted on his own, without consulting P&E although in their team it's they who have ultimately power to make decisons because of their far greater experience. 

Vietnam is a collective society. Maybe Tuan has watched too much American movies where a single hero saves the world on his own.  

On ‎30‎.‎8‎.‎2017 at 0:58 AM, Nash said:

The suicide plan isn't just repulsive it's bone stupid - that happens and all sorts of interviews take place - the very kind of stuff P&E need to avoid. 

Yes, Pasha probably wouldn't stand even if his parents questioned him why he did so. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎24‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 9:05 PM, RedHawk said:

They took away her religion, her faith in higher power that was helping her. 

I don't think it's possible that somebody else takes away one's faith. Instead, one can lose faith if one has believed f.ex. that if one prays, all problems will be solved and it doesn't happen. I think Paige became religious just as some other teenager became a Communist.   

On ‎25‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 2:15 AM, Umbelina said:

He wouldn't think the USSR would be OK for a young, devout, Christian girl for obvious reasons.  

Of course Paige would have difficulties, maybe she couldn't study in the university if she went openly to the church and didn't join Komsomol. But why would it bad for a  Christian to live in a place where she would have to show that she is willing to make sacrifices for her faith and thereby convert others? 

[Roseanna]

On ‎26‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 7:47 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

I do think that she and P are in some denial about how Henry and Paige would adjust.  I think that Paige and Henry would have a much harder time than Pasha is having. here.

 

Of course especially E is in denial.

But the truth is, which I think many who concentrate here only on the problems caused return to the USSR, is that there isn't any solutions for Paige and Henry that lacks problems. If P & E returned home and left the children in the US, that would also problems. If the Centre arranged a fake accident where they died, it would be easy to Henry to lose parents. And Paige  woudld have to lie to his Brother at least some years - and if she some  day told the truth, he would be angry to her as well.

And what if P&E were caught and imprisoned? On the top of all else, Paige and Henry would have to take a different identity and never talk about their past to other people.  

The best possibility for Paige and Henry would be that P & E would continue just like before until Henry is 18 years and hope not be caught.

On ‎27‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 4:04 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

Does Oleg's father have the clout to save his son from the REAL trouble he is in?  His dad doesn't know what Oleg really did.  If he knew, would his offer to save Oleg still be extended AND could he do it?  Their suspicions are just that, but, with those people, they don't really need proof, do they?  They just take you away, declare you committed treason and shoot you in the head.  They pretended to give Nina PROCESS, but, not really.  Would Oleg get the same or better?  And what would Oleg's father have to do if he wanted to make a deal for his son's life?  Maybe, he would have to compromise his principles, which he has avoided all these years.  

I don't think Oleg's father could do much for his son, Treason is a too serious crime. The most he could do is to save Oleg from execution. But it's more likely that he would be fired too. Maybe he could keep his pension.

As for Nina, I think she had a trial but it wasn't shown to us because the result was clear before she was sent to a prison to watch over the scientist. She knew that she had to work to get her sentence lighter, 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

I don't think it's possible that somebody else takes away one's faith. Instead, one can lose faith if one has believed f.ex. that if one prays, all problems will be solved and it doesn't happen. I think Paige became religious just as some other teenager became a Communist.   

Yes, it really does seem like a natural development. When she started out she didn't have huge problems and Pastor Tim told her this would solve all of them and she was caught up emotionally and it was new. But everyone's faith is tested. Especially with Paige, as you said, it really did feel to me that she was more into Pastor Tim than God, and Pastor Tim let her down right after she told him. He was supposed to be so different from her parents in every way, and then he turned into yet another adult. (Plus, ironically, her parents actually are closer to the ideal she admired in Pastor Tim--they've sacrificed almost everything in order to make the world a better place and they truly understand how hard that is to do--that, to me, seemed like the thing Paige was most attracted to in the church from the start, and the thing she can keep from it no matter what her thoughts about God.)

I mean, there's nothing her parents actually did that took away God from her at all. Learning your parents are Russian spies doesn't make God any less real than he was before. Nobody would say that, for instance, someone's child took God away from them because they died and the person lost their faith because of it. In this case people are often referring to the fact that P&E made Paige spend time with Pastor Tim to keep an eye on him and that was false and it poisoned the whole relationship and church world and that's true, but it's also the logical consequence of her telling him the truth. They were actually taking at least some steps to protect the Tims. Paige might easily have reacted to having to work the Tims by turning to God rather than Pastor Tim himself, but she didn't and to me that wasn't really a surprise.

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

Of course Paige would have difficulties, maybe she couldn't study in the university if she went openly to the church and didn't join Komsomol. But why would it bad for a  Christian to live in a place where she would have to show that she is willing to make sacrifices for her faith and thereby convert others? 

Yes, in fact plenty of religious people specifically venerate those who keep their faith in a society like that. (I've met people in real life who definitely exaggerate claims that they're being oppressed in this way for just that reason). None of this is meant to dismiss how hard an adjustment it would be for her or say it doesn't matter, but faith isn't about circumstances.

[Roseanna]

On ‎27‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 8:10 PM, Sarah 103 said:

Oleg is is like Philip, in that he's motivated by family and the desire to help his people. He isn't into the ideology like Elizabeth. If Oleg defected, that would ruin his family, and I'm not sure he's willing to do that. 

Exactly.

I am astonished how easily many here suggest defection as if all would be well after that.

In the thread about real spies I have told about the movie based on the true events that tells how "changing sides" can lead to mental breakdown.  

[Roseanna]

On ‎26‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 2:33 PM, icemiser69 said:

I have a difficult time understanding why Philip would want to stay with Elizabeth.  Yes, he cares about her and all of that, but he no longer wants to be involved with killing people, and if he stays with Elizabeth there is always the chance that he will have to kill again.

Has the spouses of those American soldiers who have tortured or made other war crimes abandoned them? Or have they continued to love and support them?

Unlike those spouses, Philip understands Elizabeth much more as he has done the same as she. With one difference: Elizabeth has killed people only because it belongs to her job, but Philip made a murder on his own already as a boy. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎25‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 9:31 PM, Umbelina said:

Gabe was a relative softy compared to Claudia.  He would have worked his butt off to get them out, to save them, he's got enough death on his conscience.  Claudia?  She's more mission oriented.  Phil and Liz represent a substantial investment, and under no circumstances are they easily replaced.  Paige and probably later Henry are definitely not easily replaced.  I don't believe her.  

I still think Gabe knew that Philip is in danger from Center, because of all his balking, and the trip to Germany against orders, and they have never trusted him since Elizabeth's reports on him anyway.  I really think Gabe knew a kill order might be coming, and just bailed.  Center tells Claudia to kill Philip because he's corrupting their prize patriotic zealot, Elizabeth, and endangering the entire second generation plan?  She won't hesitate, and they are all smart enough to know it has to look like some hated American did it.

Claudia, Tuan, and Elizabeth are very much alike.  In the podcast this week, the showrunners compared Tuan to Niles on Frazier.  They needed someone so neurotic that he would make Frazier seem normal by comparison.  In this case, they made Tuan such a task oriented fanatic specifically to make fanatic Elizabeth more palatable. 

Frankly, I've never seen much difference between Claudia, Tuan, and Elizabeth as far as towing the company line and doing whatever it takes to get the job done.  Claudia would kill Philip in a heartbeat if it kept Elizabeth and the kids in the game, and she may not even need that much of a reason.  She answers to Center.

 

On ‎25‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 9:59 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

I try to expect anything from The Center,  but, how would killing Philip help E and the kids?  Wouldn't that cause an investigation and focus on the family that might reveal some curious things?  A curious detective might stumble onto something that would make things sticky for E.  And if they arrange a car accident, it still could backfire.  How does that work for Social Security purposes.  The kids are entitled to payments if a parent dies, but, what happens when social security gets the second notice that Philip Jennings is dead?  (Maybe, with the first death, no notice was sent.)

 

On ‎25‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 10:07 PM, Umbelina said:

It's the KGB.  They wouldn't be sloppy about it.  Ideally, it's my guess that they would want something that would inflame Elizabeth's hatred of the USA, but it's not really needed.

They aren't going to kill one of the leads of the show.

Would the KGB though?  I think so, yes.  Not just because they are KGB, I think the CIA or any spy agency might do the same.  It's more of a spy thing than a country thing.  If they feel someone is unreliable, or a danger to a great spy who IS reliable as well as their second generation plan?  I don't think they'd hesitate, and the show as well as history tells us that the USSR is in the death throws of dying right now, which makes people even more desperate.

I mean, if I were the head of a group of spies or part of the Central Committee, or "Center?"  I'd want Philip gone, he's corrupting Elizabeth, being a pain in the ass, rebelling against orders, and his own partner said he "liked the US too much."  If I were that same head or boss of spies, who would I pick?  Elizabeth and the kids as second generation, or Philip?  No question.  Liz, hands down.  I think Gabe knew it, I think Claudia knows it, Philip is a problem for them now.

 

On ‎25‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 10:19 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

Maybe so, but, Philip still has a stellar record.  He's always gotten excellent results, even when it's him without E's help. He's saved her life and has the brute strength to kill silently with his bare hands.  I still think they would be foolish to kill him.  i suppose time will tell.   I just find it odd that they would place E in a sticky situation by causing P to get murdered or go missing. (I suppose they could send her another guy.  Or, after P's death she makes a play on STAN!  That would be funny!)Too much scrutiny by Law enforcement.  Plus Stan would really insist that no stone be left unturned. They may not figure out who killed him, but, they may find all other kinds of things about him that would put E in a tough spot.

I agree with Sunnybee.

Elizabeth isn't stupid. Any "accident" would make her suspect only of KGB. She would understand that if the Americans suspected Philip, they would also suspect her and they wouldn't kill them but capture and try to make them tell what they know. 

Before all, killing Philip would probably break Elizabeth, both as a woman and as an agent. Bringing another "husband" wouldn't help. P&E are a team and she needs his support and vice versa.

When Gabriel said farewell Philip, he said something like that he doesn't need him any more as he has Elizabeth. on the basis of we have last seem, I think it's Elizabeth whom Claudia should worry about. 

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

 

 

 

I agree with Sunnybee.

Elizabeth isn't stupid. Any "accident" would make her suspect only of KGB. She would understand that if the Americans suspected Philip, they would also suspect her and they wouldn't kill them but capture and try to make them tell what they know. 

Before all, killing Philip would probably break Elizabeth, both as a woman and as an agent. Bringing another "husband" wouldn't help. P&E are a team and she needs his support and vice versa.

When Gabriel said farewell Philip, he said something like that he doesn't need him any more as he has Elizabeth. on the basis of we have last seem, I think it's Elizabeth whom Claudia should worry about. 

Of course Claudia should worry about Elizabeth PERSONALLY. 

For the USSR, the second generation program, and the embedded spy program though?  Claudia should be (and is) worried about Philip.  Philip is the one who balks and argues about orders for individual assignments (Kimmie is just one example.)  Philip is the one who defied Center and sent Elizabeth and Paige to see the dying mother/grandmother.  Philip is the one who has on record his spy-partner's assessment that "he likes America too much and may not be trustworthy,"  and Philip is the one who was/is most adamantly against his children becoming KGB second generation spies.  Philip is the one who is depressed and going to EST (!) for answers, a place that makes you spill your guts if you expect any help. Philip is the one who is besties with an FBI agent (and his ex-wife) and even if he is getting intel, that could be suspect.  Philip is the one who AGAINST ORDERS, decided to pull Martha from the job, nearly blowing all of their covers, he also revealed his true face to her, and failed to inform Gabe or Elizabeth.  Philip is the one that would choose his family's lives over his job every single time.  Philip is the one that could be compromising their prize spy, Elizabeth and her second generation spies, also know as her kids.  There is more, but I've forgotten much of it, and we've probably discussed it in the Philip thread.

So no.   Just look at it as any management issue.  I was a manager for a long time.  For the job?  I'd want Elizabeth, and do everything to keep her as an employee.  Philip?  Problem child, and for an operation as critical as this one, if I (we) even suspected he was compromising her work value?  Off with his head, in a way that placed blame on the USA, in order to keep Elizabeth's zeal against them high, would be the most effective business decision.

As I said before, there isn't much difference between Tuan, Elizabeth, and Claudia's work methods and value.  The only difference is age and experience, so of course Claudia's are the most refined, then Elizabeth, then Tuan.

Philip is more like Gabe, a good soldier who does what it takes but hates it every step of the way, and allows doubt and reflection to slip in. Rather I should say, Philip is what Gabe might have become if he'd gone to the USA instead of enduring Stalin, WWII, and the rest of the brutal upheavals and conflicts in the Soviet Union.  They are more "human" and less soldier, even though they can be effective soldiers.  Claudia, Elizabeth, and Tuan are more soldier and less human, even though they can occasionally have human moments.  "Human" loosely defined here as people over duty.

I could easily be wrong about the show's intentions here.  The writing was so very bad this season that who knows what they were trying to do and say.

I do think I am correct about how the USSR's Central Committee and KGB would react however.  Or, as I said, any other top heavy spy organization in the world.  Spies are not "nice."  Their job is to be effective.  They are not loyal to individual's, they are loyal to their country or cause.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Umbelina

[Roseanna]

On ‎1‎.‎11‎.‎2017 at 4:00 PM, Umbelina said:

Of course Claudia should worry about Elizabeth PERSONALLY. 

For the USSR, the second generation program, and the embedded spy program though?  Claudia should be (and is) worried about Philip.  Philip is the one who balks and argues about orders for individual assignments (Kimmie is just one example.)  Philip is the one who defied Center and sent Elizabeth and Paige to see the dying mother/grandmother.  Philip is the one who has on record his spy-partner's assessment that "he likes America too much and may not be trustworthy,"  and Philip is the one who was/is most adamantly against his children becoming KGB second generation spies.  Philip is the one who is depressed and going to EST (!) for answers, a place that makes you spill your guts if you expect any help. Philip is the one who is besties with an FBI agent (and his ex-wife) and even if he is getting intel, that could be suspect.  Philip is the one who AGAINST ORDERS, decided to pull Martha from the job, nearly blowing all of their covers, he also revealed his true face to her, and failed to inform Gabe or Elizabeth.  Philip is the one that would choose his family's lives over his job every single time.  Philip is the one that could be compromising their prize spy, Elizabeth and her second generation spies, also know as her kids.  There is more, but I've forgotten much of it, and we've probably discussed it in the Philip thread.

So no.   Just look at it as any management issue.  I was a manager for a long time.  For the job?  I'd want Elizabeth, and do everything to keep her as an employee.  Philip?  Problem child, and for an operation as critical as this one, if I (we) even suspected he was compromising her work value?  Off with his head, in a way that placed blame on the USA, in order to keep Elizabeth's zeal against them high, would be the most effective business decision.

You make an interesting analysis but it doesn't deal the one point which I think is the crux of matter: if Elizabeth lost Philip, could she be an effective spy?

Their job is independent: they got their task, but they plan themselves how they would do it. That can't do by a robot, it demands a human being. Although P&E don't always work together, they are a team and only they can give each other the emotional support they need to function.

Their work could be compared with couple who has are Olympic Champions in pair skating. What couch should say: I take Elizabeth and leave Philip. No, it would be a coach's job to have either have them togerther motivate for next Olympic or retire together and to coach their successors.

Regarding Philip, I can't find his problems very serious as the Finnish iconical fictional soldier during the WW2 Antti Rokka (in The Unknown Soldiers by Väinö Linna) was famous resisting orders that were stupid. The authority of the Finnish officers wasn't based on their position, but that they fulfilled the masculine ideal of the "citizen soldiers" who were farmers or workers.

On the basis of the recent study I read I began to suspect it's just Philip who would be most difficult turn:    

"Soviet interrogators sought to turn the loyalty of the Finnish POV away from their own government and the army and hence to persuade him to cooperate with his captors. The goal was not impossible if the starting point was that the identity and loyalty of the soldier to his home country was also initially a result of the rearing and conditioning of his own army. The exterminator's job was clear, as well: to demolish the POV's personality as his own military service had edited and construct a new creation for the captives.

However, the Finnish soldiers had remained independent actors in relation to the formal hierarchy of the army, and their self-respect based on their own masculinity was also visible in the face of their own superiors. In captivity, exactly the same attitude was channeled as a protest and as an insult to Soviet captors whose weight and indoctrination came into conflict with the manners of POVs. The time of imprisonment turned into a spiritual warfare where the warrior struggled not only to survive, but also to preserve his identity without any weapons other than self-esteem." 

[sistermagpie]

33 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

You make an interesting analysis but it doesn't deal the one point which I think is the crux of matter: if Elizabeth lost Philip, could she be an effective spy?

That seems to be the question for me too. Even if they decided to do this, how much time would they be giving Elizabeth to even recover from it? They'd be taking away her partner from the beginning (which in itself would be a huge blow, like cutting off a leg and expecting her to keep running), plus making her an actual widow, plus giving her two traumatized, grieving children to mother. At least one of those children is going to be clinging to her like a limpet out of fear that her mother will be the next to die. The other one--who knows? Henry tends to withdraw when he's upset. Would Elizabeth just let him do that with Philip gone? It's not as if killing Philip would just snap Elizabeth back to her "factory settings." 

Also I think without Philip Elizabeth would very likely start trying to think like him to make up for the loss. Twice in the series she's suggested that she thought the family might be better off without her than without him. It would, imo, possibly make her *more* likely to suspect the Centre because Philip would have--after all, for all she might deny it, underneath the surface she knows the Centre approved of her rape, questions her mother sending her off, lashed out when the Centre treated her as a mole suspect. It wouldn't be strange if Philip's death made her even more against turning Paige into a spy (something she's already been more ambivalent about than she admits, only she's usually got Philip there to bear the weight of her doubts). It would be like the discussions of how Paige would react if they killed Pastor Tim. Elizabeth started out thinking they could just make it look like an accident. Philip suggested that even if she didn't immediately suspect them, she eventually would, if she didn't know for sure.

43 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

On the basis of the recent study I read I began to suspect it's just Philip who would be most difficult turn:    

That quote's really fascinating and it makes sense. Maybe all those scenes where the Jennings talk through the reason what they're doing (especially in the face of Philip's challenges) strengthen the resolve rather than threaten it. I always thought it was interesting how back in S1 Philip and Elizabeth had a conversation about being captured. Elizabeth starts carrying a gun saying she'd rather die than be turned. Philip says if he was captured she should expect the FBI at the house in an hour. But iirc (I could be mixing things up), it's after that that he's captured by what he thinks is the FBI and he doesn't do what he said he'd do at all. 

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

You make an interesting analysis but it doesn't deal the one point which I think is the crux of matter: if Elizabeth lost Philip, could she be an effective spy?

Their job is independent: they got their task, but they plan themselves how they would do it. That can't do by a robot, it demands a human being. Although P&E don't always work together, they are a team and only they can give each other the emotional support they need to function.

(cut)
 

 

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

That seems to be the question for me too. Even if they decided to do this, how much time would they be giving Elizabeth to even recover from it? They'd be taking away her partner from the beginning (which in itself would be a huge blow, like cutting off a leg and expecting her to keep running), plus making her an actual widow, plus giving her two traumatized, grieving children to mother. At least one of those children is going to be clinging to her like a limpet out of fear that her mother will be the next to die. The other one--who knows? Henry tends to withdraw when he's upset. Would Elizabeth just let him do that with Philip gone? It's not as if killing Philip would just snap Elizabeth back to her "factory settings." 

(cut)

 

I don't think of these things from  MY point of view, I try to think of it from "Center's" point of view. 

I don't think they want to kill Philip, but I do think they will do it in a heartbeat if the other three spies they want are in any way made less effective.  Alternately they could pull him back to Moscow, have him train spies, and have him as a hostage over Elizabeth and both kids, I'm sure that's the last thing they want, but has it been discussed back there?  If this were all real?  I think they certainly would have considered that option.

ETA, by the way, look at what Philip's sending them off to see Grandma actually did.  Freaked Paige out enough to tell the pastor that her parents were KGB the night she got home!  You honestly don't think Center is pissed at Philip for that?  Jeopardizing everything because of his "feelings" and unprofessional behavior? 

Elizabeth, their prize spy, who has never given them a bit of trouble until Philip convinced her to defy orders and go see her mom while dragging along their prized second generation spy-in-training, Paige.  They also plan on having Henry begin training soon.  Right now, Elizabeth's main value to them is getting Henry and Elizabeth ready to spy.  That's what they REALLY want, the second generation program up and running.

You both pose good questions though.  The operation would have to be flawless (kill Philip op) to further (in their minds) motivate Elizabeth and possibly both children AGAINST the USA.  The hostage option which I doubt they want to use, is motivation by threat and fear with the carrot of "at least Philip isn't dead, and we can reunite with him at some point, and he's being treated well as long as we do our jobs well."

Do I think as a KGB officer Elizabeth would crumble and fail?  No.  I just don't, it's not in her nature with either of those options, provided Center handles either well.  1.  The USA did it.  or 2.  I'm sorry, but Philip is untrustworthy in the USA now, we had to pull him, so sorry, but he's being treated well...for now.  We know you, on the other hand, understand the importance of our second generation operation, and you, unlike Philip, have been enthusiastically training Paige.  Let Henry go off to school for now, you can train him later.  Once both children are up and running as agents, you can return to Philip in Moscow, and visit the kids whenever you like.  (may be a lie, but Elizabeth might buy it if they sold it well enough.)

So, yeah, I do think it could work.

They could always give Liz some extra spy help, and she has the kids for the emotional connection stuff, which frankly, I don't think "Center" is very keen on.

 

Will the show go there?  Who knows?  Last season the writers could barely even tie their shoelaces.  Let's hope we get back to some great writing next season, and then?  Anything is possible, except a happy ending for all.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Umbelina

[Roseanna]

8 hours ago, Umbelina said:

ETA, by the way, look at what Philip's sending them off to see Grandma actually did.  Freaked Paige out enough to tell the pastor that her parents were KGB the night she got home!  You honestly don't think Center is pissed at Philip for that?  Jeopardizing everything because of his "feelings" and unprofessional behavior? 

E&P spoke Paige together, so why would they claim only Philip for her telling Pastor Tim? It could have been a threat, but Philip made Paige handle it, that it, forced her manipulate Tims. As for the journey to Germany, it was a right decision for it did good to Elizabeth, indeed it was necessary for her. Anyway, that was a small thing. 

And what of the situation where Carrie in Homeland's S2 endanged the whole operation, that it, put her love for Brody before the security of her coutry. No intelligence agency would have used her after that, at least in the field operations. In the big picture Philip has always done his duty, and more.  

[Roseanna]

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Maybe all those scenes where the Jennings talk through the reason what they're doing (especially in the face of Philip's challenges) strengthen the resolve rather than threaten it.

I agree with you. Every normal person has doubts, and that is in itself not the same as one wants to go to the other side, because one's own country is still one's own.

(Pastor Tim made the elemental mistake by not teaching Paige that faith doesn't solve all problems. Despite what one feels, faith means to have hope and contnue to act according to it.)

On the hand, Philip's question about agriculture ("why can't we do it also") is really a sign of good citizen, not of unrealibiality. Unfortunately, in the Soviet Union and formerly Czar's Russia there was no room for the free citizen society and thus initiatives from below (other than small practical ones) weren't allowed. Even Gorbatshow's reforms happened from above just as those of Alexander II.    

[sistermagpie]

17 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I don't think of these things from  MY point of view, I try to think of it from "Center's" point of view. 

The Centre has shown itself as completely bone-headed before, so they certainly could again--that's how they destroyed the Connors family. Certainly I don't think it would be unbelievable for them to be so out of touch that they thought they could just "have" Paige and Henry if they killed Philip, somehow make it look like the Americans did it without Elizabeth's own cover being blown, or if they snatched Philip back to Russia. At least somebody at the top, so far removed from the ground, might think that they could pull all this off from thousands of miles away. 

 

But that seems like way too many bombs they're setting off without understanding they're doing so. Philip isn't the cause of Elizabeth's own problems--and Elizabeth's been out of the USSR a long time too. Her mentor is dead. We don't know that she's got people back there who personally think she's so great. Elizabeth was the one who beat up Granny when she felt she wasn't being treated well by the Centre and now thinks Philip is deserving of good treatment as well. She went off on a misguided mission to avenge Zhukov. She couldn't kill Gregory and insisted he be allowed to die on TV. The Centre doesn't know about all these things, presumably, but that's who they're dealing with. The betrayed fanatic is sometimes the most dangerous. (Also if we take the pilot into consideration, which I'm not always sure how to do, when Elizabeth was faced with Philip seeming to betray her she told him to take Timoshev to the Americans.)

They'd also be throwing away Philip's operation with Kimmie, which is currently the most important one. Philip's also probably been most helpful when it comes to Stan info. Plus we know that even if Elizabeth is more enthusiastic about Paige being a spy, Philip is just as important to how Paige has handled things. 

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

E&P spoke Paige together, so why would they claim only Philip for her telling Pastor Tim? It could have been a threat, but Philip made Paige handle it, that it, forced her manipulate Tims. As for the journey to Germany, it was a right decision for it did good to Elizabeth, indeed it was necessary for her. Anyway, that was a small thing. 

 

Also, it was a risk for the moment she learned the truth. Maybe she told a week late because she was out of the country. According to Elizabeth's own opinion the trip was good for Paige. 

17 hours ago, Umbelina said:

They could always give Liz some extra spy help, and she has the kids for the emotional connection stuff, which frankly, I don't think "Center" is very keen on.

 

Right, but the spies work better when the Centre supports the emotional connection stuff. That's a big reason Philip and Elizabeth have been so successful, that they had people thinking about that. A lot of the spywork is based on how powerful that is. 

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

On the hand, Philip's question about agriculture ("why can't we do it also") is really a sign of good citizen, not of unrealibiality. Unfortunately, in the Soviet Union and formerly Czar's Russia there was no room for the free citizen society and thus initiatives from below (other than small practical ones) weren't allowed. Even Gorbatshow's reforms happened from above just as those of Alexander II.

And although Elizabeth's pov as a loyal soldier was created before she was recruited, it still seems like it might have more in common with the soldiers who were created by the army to me. She doesn't want to be a coward. Going along with the Centre in some extreme cases could feel more cowardly to her. Elizabeth has explicitly relied on the Centre to decide what's right and wrong. If they do something Elizabeth feels is wrong that she can't deny (like because of her relationship with Philip and her kids) that could be a problem.

Edited November 3, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

Quote

They'd also be throwing away Philip's operation with Kimmie, which is currently the most important one. Philip's also probably been most helpful when it comes to Stan info. Plus we know that even if Elizabeth is more enthusiastic about Paige being a spy, Philip is just as important to how Paige has handled things. 

This is the best point made.

However, to Center, (which I agree, we've been shown and told on the show that they ARE out of touch, too removed, and in many cases up their own asses, and barely have a clue what the USA is like) I disagree that Kimmie is the most important op.  To them, as (again) we've been told over and over again?  THE most important op to them is the 2nd Generation spy program right now. 

Philip is against it.  Completely.  Gabe may have tried to protect him a bit, but he couldn't really, since Claudia also knows and has reported truthfully to Center. 

The trip to see Grandma was ALL Philip.  He admitted it, he did it defiantly and belligerently.  The fact that now that the whole Jennings couple scam is real also annoys Center.  It scared Gabe too.  Also, Elizabeth went along with her (now) lover/husband in more than cover only.  HE had more influence on her than her handlers, or Center.

I can't believe they are OK with that.  At all.

I worked for a Government agency as a manager, and the rules handed down were to be followed no matter how stupid they may have appeared to be, no matter how negative the impact of doing as ordered was.  That was a US government agency, not the Kremlin who are, in that time, facing all kinds of internal and external problems.  I can easily see all the things I've mentioned as happening, and I'd be dumbfounded if they weren't at least being discussed.

The show has gone out of it's way to tell us how out of touch Center is, and how all powerful.  Heck, that was William's main roll on the show.  Both Gabe and Claudia have also dropped heavy hints, and even heavier anvils about what not "following orders" can mean.  It's life and death, not simply being fired.

If I try, (no matter how imperfectly) to look at the embedded officer situation from Moscow's POV?  Philip, hands down, is their biggest problem right now, the biggest thing standing in the way of 2nd Generation, and quite possibly corrupting their perfect soldier in this war, Elizabeth.

Personally, I see "CENTER" as in a state of panic and desperate need to accomplish something, people there could also be afraid for their lives or liberty, maybe that's why we saw more of Moscow this season.  That's the only thing that could possibly explain and illustrate how out of touch they are by wanting Pasha's mom back there to seduce a Deputy Chief of Staff Moscow.  (!)  It's beyond ridiculous and desperate.  She's not trained at all, and he, presumably IS well trained to be promoted to the most prestigious and difficult posting (at that time) there was for a CIA agent.  He is not going to fall for her pathetic attempts while on high alert in Moscow.  It's nuts.

That's what I get for reading so many fiction and non fiction spy novels about that period of time.  Well, to be more accurate, from about the 1930's until the 1990's.  Soviet, British, French, and American mostly.

Spies are not nice people, and they don't give one shit about feelings.

 

I'll be happy to discuss Carrie Mathison in a Homeland thread, it's a much different situation since it's current time, and she's a genius savant about the players in the Middle East, also, for obvious reasons, we know much less about current spy ops than we do about historical spy ops.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

However, to Center, (which I agree, we've been shown and told on the show that they ARE out of touch, too removed, and in many cases up their own asses, and barely have a clue what the USA is like) I disagree that Kimmie is the most important op.  To them, as (again) we've been told over and over again?  THE most important op to them is the 2nd Generation spy program right now. 

 

Moving my answer to the "Centre directives" thread since it seems like it belongs there...

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

That's the only thing that could possibly explain and illustrate how out of touch they are by wanting Pasha's mom back there to seduce a Deputy Chief of Staff Moscow. 

Technically, she doesn't have to seduce him. She's already his mistress. I agree it seems unlikely to work--can she keep up the affair knowing the real story even? And wouldn't he be suspicious that a defector was allowed back in just at the right time to sleep with him? Surely he knows how unlikely that is. But at least it's familiar--they're using an affair to blackmail him, using an established mistress to get information. They're not giving anything up by trying it. If he breaks up with her they're not worse off than they were before. I'm really more surprised that Evgenia didn't figure it out given doesn't she already know this guy is going to be sent to Moscow?

[Umbelina]

It's beyond desperate and stupid.  A mistress is a kept woman.  She's just a lay.  She has no training.  I suppose the KGB will try blackmail, which still wouldn't work.

Much easier for the guy to confess to his superiors "Hey I had sex with my Russian language teacher in the USA, and now she's here"  How do you want to play this?

[Sarah 103]

On November 2, 2017 at 8:49 PM, Umbelina said:

Right now, Elizabeth's main value to them is getting Henry and Elizabeth ready to spy.  That's what they REALLY want, the second generation program up and running.

I think it's worth remembering that the second generation will not be doing what Philip and Elizabeth do. The second generation will not be sneaking around, breaking into buildings, and doing the exciting mission stuff. The point of the second generation is to get people into government agencies to act as intelligence gathering/sources of information. 

[Umbelina]

10 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

I think it's worth remembering that the second generation will not be doing what Philip and Elizabeth do. The second generation will not be sneaking around, breaking into buildings, and doing the exciting mission stuff. The point of the second generation is to get people into government agencies to act as intelligence gathering/sources of information. 

So they say...

But as our spies and Gabe have said a few times, "something always goes wrong."

Also, frankly, Liz is getting a little long in the tooth for very more honey traps and seductions, her days at that are numbered.

[Roseanna]

On ‎3‎.‎11‎.‎2017 at 8:54 PM, Umbelina said:

If I try, (no matter how imperfectly) to look at the embedded officer situation from Moscow's POV?  Philip, hands down, is their biggest problem right now, the biggest thing standing in the way of 2nd Generation, and quite possibly corrupting their perfect soldier in this war, Elizabeth.

 

7 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

I think it's worth remembering that the second generation will not be doing what Philip and Elizabeth do. The second generation will not be sneaking around, breaking into buildings, and doing the exciting mission stuff. The point of the second generation is to get people into government agencies to act as intelligence gathering/sources of information. 

A agree with Sarah: the second generation program can't compensete what P&R do. The essential point is that the program may bring results in the future (if it ever succeeded) but the Soviet government most urgently needs information about teh US military plans now. 

When one thinks about the history, the Soviets of course had long-term plans, but they always chose short-term results over them. Which isn't odd when one remembers that they always believed that they are threatened by the enemy. 

Actually, one could see also thus that Lenin was a master by making sacrificies that seemed to offer both principles and long-term aims (and that more ideological Bolsheviks therefore opposed) but by winning time made them possible later.  And although Stalin was keen to believe information that supported his ideological beliefs (which was made all the easier as he wanted to analyze intelligence information himself), in the end he accepted what was impossible to do at that moment and changed rapidly the course. In boh cases, sometimes what was aimed to be temporary, became in time permanent. 

Edited November 5, 2017 by Roseanna
Sentences with italics added

[Roseanna]

I recently listened when a journalist told about the background of his "scoop of the year" a couple of days it happened. Nobody belived it at first, especially as it was angrily disputed ("Judas did it, not I"). But it was just what happened although it was presented that it a result of the event, not planned.

The journalist told that his habit is to make hypotheses, and then find facts. If facts don't support some hypothesis, he abandons it. If facts support the hypothesis, it will become news.

I though that it just what intelligence agencies do. Many here have said that P&E should have known straightaway that the US can't possibly aim to poison grain in the Sioviet Union. But sometimes "impossible" things happen as the case of the journalist shows. Although P&E accepted the Soviet-style hypothesis, they found out facts and abandoned the hypothesis when the facts didn't support it.        

[sistermagpie]

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

A agree with Sarah: the second generation program can't compensete what P&R do. The essential point is that the program may bring results in the future (if it ever succeeded) but the Soviet government most urgently needs information about teh US military plans now. 

Yeah, to me it seems like the idea that Paige and Henry would be P&E undermines the whole point of a Paige and Henry. They're valuable because they can get government jobs like Martha or Fred. If you've got somebody in that position you want them to stay there. If you send them out all over the place in wigs and expect them to seduce multiple people (a whole lot of things P&E had special training for before they came to the US) you're putting all that at risk. You want their actual identity. They make P&Es in Russia. (And if the Centre's already a bit mistrustful of P&E they'd be even more so of two Americans.) It's better to keep your nose clean if you've got an important job (which might even come with surveillance). Even William doesn't seem to have been used the way P&E are and he's an actual Illegal.

Even Philip, when he said everything changed, imo was not meaning the kids would be them. He just meant that as people passing on information and maybe trying to recruit others they might wind up required to do more desperate things.

[Umbelina]

Quote

Even Philip, when he said everything changed, imo was not meaning the kids would be them. He just meant that as people passing on information and maybe trying to recruit others they might wind up required to do more desperate things.

Yes, and things "ALWAYS change" according to Philip.

Again, I don't think they want to lose Elizabeth as a spy, even though her honeytrapping days are soon over.  I also don't think that Henry and Paige will become spies like Liz and Phil.  However, Elizabeth is dreaming if she thinks everything they do for the USSR will be in a nice clean office somewhere, completely removed from the nitty gritty side of spying.  Perhaps in a perfect world that would be true, but the world, especially the world of spies, is rarely perfect.   They will do what Moscow tells them to do, and what's needed to protect their cover and Moscow's goals.

I also think they would prefer to keep Philip in the game, but NOT if he jeopardizes Elizabeth's loyalty or the second generation program.  The problem is?  He already has.

At this point I have very little faith in the writers though, so maybe it will be a happy ending for everyone after all.  Or, they could write like they did the first four seasons, listening to former spies from this period, and make this show good again.

As far as Kimmie?  I'd be shocked if Moscow doesn't already have a plan B and C in place for her, but she's a dead agent soon anyway, with college looming.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Umbelina