Season 1 Episodes Talk

[secnarf]

9 hours ago, JenJenBosco said:

I don't I explained what I was trying to explain properly...my company is different since it is a bonus that he feels is necessary -> I don't know any other company that does it.  We were only 50 people, now we're 150 -> we merged with another company recently, and maybe that was why he felt it as something doable.

What I was trying to say, was that many people I know purposely take their vacation time (or an extended weekend) around their birthday, therefore, they would take their Paid Vacation Time not just don't show up because of their birthday -> they take it as part of their vacation time.  -> I still don't know if I am making sense, so I am going to stop.

Morgan didn't take off for his birthday, it is stated in Profiler-Profiled that he takes off every year for his Mother's birthday every year.  Also, isn't there a few other times where other members take off?  Like you mentioned, Rossi, and I think Hotch takes Jack to Disney World, and Reid takes off for his mother, JJ takes off for maternity leave, Elle is off for recuperation (although that's different), I feel like there could have been a discussion like only one of them could be off at a time, unless it's like "Fisher King".

 

I get what you're saying.  Neither Gideon nor Rossi care much about their families, and Gideon, especially, did not understand that Hotch was trying to be a family man.  And since it wasn't a particularly bad case, and Gideon took the lead anyway, why did Hotch need to be there?  -> I think that's what I am focusing on.  

 

Again, Sorry if I'm confusing you guys about the holiday-birthday thing, and whether Hotch took the time off as vacation time or not, sometimes, I am not that great at explaining things.

You are making sense - I just disagree that your birthday should have any impact on your work. If you take vacation time - regardless of whether or not it is your birthday - then it is vacation time. For some people, their jobs are such that they sometimes get called in even while on approved vacation time. Sucks, but it's the job. Doesn't matter if it's your birthday.

[idiotwaltz]

Quote

What I was trying to say, was that many people I know purposely take their vacation time (or an extended weekend) around their birthday, therefore, they would take their Paid Vacation Time not just don't show up because of their birthday

I hear you, JenJenBosco. My birthday was on a Tuesday this year and I was going to take both the Monday and Tuesday off for an extended weekend. Unfortunately, work blew up the week before so I had to cancel my leave for the Monday - I did take leave on my birthday but spent most of the day checking my work email. I would have cancelled my leave on my birthday if I was absolutely needed in the office (thankfully, I am utterly dispensable). Believe me, I was not happy about having to cancel my leave, but that’s the job. 

I get why Haley was annoyed and snippy when Gideon called. When she married Hotch, they were probably young and Hotch’s job required less travel away from home (though I can’t imagine he would be coming home at 5:00 pm every night if he was working as a federal prosecutor). As time passed, I feel Haley probably started feeling resentful of Hotch never being around and that Hotch prioritized his job over his family, etc. Rightly or wrongly, it probably wasn’t the life she thought she’d signed up for.

I always thought Haley was overly harsh with Hotch in In Name and in Blood but now, when I rewatch S1, I just feel sad for both of them knowing what future has in store. 

[JenJenBosco]

Even though I am not a child, and am an adult, and even though I always went to class or finals that were on my birthday, when I got this job, before I realized that I had it as a holiday off, I was planning to take off my birthday -> if I was absolutely needed, like they needed me last week because I was the only one who could do the job even though I was majorly sick -> when I finally went to the doctor, he told me if I had pushed anymore I could have ended up with pneumonia -> I still went in to work, and would have on my birthday if it was necessary like that.

However, if it's just a normal work day, and there are others who could help out in my stead, I have no problem taking it off, even if I don't have any plans for two reasons: one, because even though I love my job, the people, and what I do -> I didn't work hard to get there, not to like it, It's still work, and if I can get paid not to work on my birthday by taking a vacation day, I will, and two, because from the moment I get into my car to head to work (not including getting ready time) to the moment I get home, is thirteen hours, I commute 1.5 hrs one way, and honestly, I don't want to deal with other people on the road or the train or the people in the city, on a normal day, why would I want to do it on my birthday?  Shouldn't we be allowed one day to do what we want -> even if it's to do nothing?  

Obviously, @secnarf, you disagree, and that's okay, I just hope you can respect my opinion as much as I respect yours.  

Back onto the topic at hand, I feel like it was slowly building in Haley from the moment she was likely put on bedrest.  Think about it, even one of the unsubs stated that Hotch's sick pregnant wife wasn't enough to keep him home.  I think she tried to reconcile the fact that she would basically be a single parent since Hotch would have to leave all the time, and found that she couldn't do that.  On this, I think if her family had been supportive, she probably could have gotten through it, but I get the sense from Jessica in this episode that she isn't supportive...at least not at this point in the series.  

Yes, I think Haley was rather harsh with Hotch, but if we had seen more of her, we could have understood how she went from the happy woman showing off her baby to the team to the woman in "In Name and Blood" that wanted Hotch to have nothing to do with the BAU.

Anyway, I still haven't watched Secrets and Lies, yet, but I will.

[JMO]

I've always sympathized with Haley.  I don't remember learning whether she had her own career or not, so I don't know if she gave something up to become a parent.  I don't recall day care or preschool ever being mentioned, so I think she became a full time, stay-at-home mom once Jack was born.  We do know, from his forgetting his son's appointment (where Jack was diagnosed with 'a condition' that was never mentioned again), that Hotch wasn't fully present to the parent role, as long as Haley was there to occupy it.  While she might have tolerated his long absences in their childless days, I get it if Haley felt abandoned once Jack came along.  It must have been very lonely for her.  Even those who thrive on kids need adult conversation from time to time. 

I don't see this as Haley changing her expectations, or not tolerating his job.  I see it as the natural progression of the life of a couple that evolves into a family.  Haley was with one guy, Hotch, since high school.  Being a wife and mother was likely what she had in mind when she entered the relationship.  But, with Hotch putting work first, I wouldn't be surprised if she'd come to feel like the forbidden mistress.

It's possible that Hotch thought he was doing the right thing by excelling at his job and providing an income to the household.  But Haley was pretty assertive in letting him know that it was his presence that she needed.  When he heard that, and still withheld it, he essentially rejected her.  

[JenJenBosco]

2 minutes ago, JMO said:

I've always sympathized with Haley.  I don't remember learning whether she had her own career or not, so I don't know if she gave something up to become a parent.  I don't recall day care or preschool ever being mentioned, so I think she became a full time, stay-at-home mom once Jack was born.  We do know, from his forgetting his son's appointment (where Jack was diagnosed with 'a condition' that was never mentioned again), that Hotch wasn't fully present to the parent role, as long as Haley was there to occupy it.  While she might have tolerated his long absences in their childless days, I get it if Haley felt abandoned once Jack came along.  It must have been very lonely for her.  Even those who thrive on kids need adult conversation from time to time. 

I don't see this as Haley changing her expectations, or not tolerating his job.  I see it as the natural progression of the life of a couple that evolves into a family.  Haley was with one guy, Hotch, since high school.  Being a wife and mother was likely what she had in mind when she entered the relationship.  But, with Hotch putting work first, I wouldn't be surprised if she'd come to feel like the forbidden mistress.

It's possible that Hotch thought he was doing the right thing by excelling at his job and providing an income to the household.  But Haley was pretty assertive in letting him know that it was his presence that she needed.  When he heard that, and still withheld it, he essentially rejected her.  

I can agree with that.  I don't think Haley had a job until after the divorce, and since she was with him since high school, she probably never imagined that he'd have a job that would take him away so much, but while it was just the two of them, I think she was fine.  I honestly think it wasn't until she had Jack that she realized she needed his presence at home, and he wasn't there.  I wonder if there were multiple little things that he missed leading up to the appointment that Hotch missed causing Haley to be even more angry leading up to the moment when she felt the FBI had let him down when he was suspended without pay, and he still chose to go back. -> I wonder if she would have been more understanding had he not been suspended.

Given what we know about their job and the expectations to leave at a moment's notice, and be gone for days, I completely sympathize with Haley.  She dealt with it for who knows how long -> I think the earliest case that Hotch was on that has been mentioned is 1999?  So at the very least it was 8 years(?) when she finally had enough...and given that they likely held off on kids because of him and his job, I think that might have also contributed to her issue.  Regardless, everyone has their breaking point.  Besides, as a side note, It's not like he's a doctor, who may get called away, but comes home that night (or next day if it's the middle of the night), when he gets called away, he's gone for days. 

Which reminds me, I still don't understand how Hotch was able to convince Jessica to take care of Jack at a moment's notice whenever they have to leave on a case before he left.  

[smoker]

 I do not sympathize with Haley.

I won't disrespect her right to chage her mind about the terms of their marriage, but I do disrespect hypocrisy.

They had an agreement. She married a workaholic. I don't see the problem. If you don't want that life  you shouldn't get married to someone who's never there. I think they were in love with people who were long gone. They grewn up to be in a very different page. Hotch never accepted he wanted his job beyond anything else and Haley pretended she didn't care and they did the worst thing anyone can do when a marriage is weak, having a child. That's the ultimate stressor. Haley feeling they mean nothing to Hotch and Hotch feeling he is a bad person. That's a miserable way to live.

Another theory about their quick divorce is Haley knew she could emotional blackmail Hotch to leave his job, but that way Hotch would be the bitter one while she wouldn't be the neglected wife anymore.

There are 2 episodes where I am on Haley's side, those are "Damaged" (JJ's attitude was disrespectful) and "Pleasure Is My Business" (that line  fo Megan Kane making reference to Haley). 

Edited December 27, 2017 by smoker

[smoker]

7 hours ago, idiotwaltz said:

I get why Haley was annoyed and snippy when Gideon called. When she married Hotch, they were probably young and Hotch’s job required less travel away from home (though I can’t imagine he would be coming home at 5:00 pm every night if he was working as a federal prosecutor). As time passed, I feel Haley probably started feeling resentful of Hotch never being around and that Hotch prioritized his job over his family, etc. Rightly or wrongly, it probably wasn’t the life she thought she’d signed up for.

I always thought Haley was overly harsh with Hotch in In Name and in Blood but now, when I rewatch S1, I just feel sad for both of them knowing what future has in store. 

I do agree

[JMO]

I don't think Haley married a workaholic.  I think she married her high school sweetheart, the 'worst third pirate', whose work ethic wasn't visible to her, back then.  I doubt either of them had any more of an idea what marriage would be like than any other couple starting out so young.  We can probably all point to stories of both success and failure in similar circumstances. 

As to having a child---I don't recall if we were told whether they'd been trying, and dealing with infertility, or if they'd simply decided to postpone having a family.  Were we?

I'm curious as to what makes you think Haley changed the terms of their marriage.

[JenJenBosco]

I think the reason I sympathize with Haley is because they fell in love when they were young, and both were holding onto their past selves rather than their current selves.  They both grew and evolved to be different people than they were originally.  Neither wanted to let go, but it's evident that they aren't the same people they were when they fell in love.  

Although I disagree that they had the baby during a shaky marriage.  I felt up until Machismo, where she is being passive aggressive -> which I disagree with entirely (if you have an issue, talk about it), They were happy and in love, and not having a shaky marriage.  I totally thought she was completely supportive.  

I think having Jack made her realize she wanted them to be a priority and Hotch's priority wasn't the family.  Should she have known this?  Yes.  Should they have talked about it?  Yes.  However, they obviously didn't talk about it or didn't agree and it ate away at her until she couldn't do it anymore.

I'm not on either side, they are both at fault for this, all I am saying is I understand both sides.

10 minutes ago, smoker said:

I won't disrespect her right to change her mind about the terms of their marriage, but I do disrespect hypocrisy.

Why is she being a hypocrate?  I only ask because I am confused, and I am still working my way through rewatching, so I haven't gotten that far so maybe I am forgetting.

10 minutes ago, smoker said:

Another theory about their quick divorce is Haley knew she could emotional blackmail Hotch to leave his job, but that way Hotch would be the bitter one while she wouldn't be the neglected wife anymore.

The problem is that she didn't emotionally blackmail him into leaving.  They disagreed, they filed for divorce, and there was nothing about "if you leave the team, we can still be married", wouldn't that have be necessary to consider the divorce emotional blackmail?  I don't know, again, I could be missing something.

10 minutes ago, smoker said:

There are 2 episodes where I am on Haley's side, those are "Damaged" (JJ's attitude was disrespectful) and "Pleasure Is My Business" (that line  fo Megan Kane making reference to Haley). 

I totally agree about JJ's attitude in "Damaged" and I sort of felt for Haley in "Pleasure is my business" because of that line reference.  Honestly, even understanding her point of view, I'm not on her side in Machismo because she was being passive aggressive.  "It's your wife." "Go ahead go, they need you, it's fine."

I'm just saying I understand both sides.

1 minute ago, JMO said:

I don't think Haley married a workaholic.  I think she married her high school sweetheart, the 'worst third pirate', whose work ethic wasn't visible to her, back then.  I doubt either of them had any more of an idea what marriage would be like than any other couple starting out so young.  We can probably all point to stories of both success and failure in similar circumstances. 

As to having a child---I don't recall if we were told whether they'd been trying, and dealing with infertility, or if they'd simply decided to postpone having a family.  Were we?

I'm curious as to what makes you think Haley changed the terms of their marriage.

Also, This is what I was trying to say as well.  When you're young and in love, especially when you're still in school, you don't see work ethic or anything else that might contribute to your home life.

[smoker]

We know they were together since high school, but we don't know when they got married.

And I think Hotch was pretty focused if he wanted to be a prosecutor.

[JenJenBosco]

11 minutes ago, smoker said:

We know they were together since high school, but we don't know when they got married.

And I think Hotch was pretty focused if he wanted to be a prosecutor.

This is true, we have no idea how long they were married or anything like that.  Just that they'd been together since high school.

However, focus for school is different than focus for work.  At least, I feel like it is.  I'm an engineer, I had to focus at my school work because it's not easy, however, I treat my work entirely differently than in school.  My work ethic at work is a lot more focused than I ever focused on schoolwork.  Because with school, you get a bad grade, you can make it up, with work, you lack on a case (for Hotch) or a project (for me) and it affects other people.  I can totally believe that he became ten times worse when entered the workforce than when he was just in school.  However, I've never been to law school, so I can't be certain, it's just my assumption.

Also, I think the problem is that we know that they are pushing forty and should know each other well by now -> I think he'd been in the BAU for at least 8 years, so she should have known the truth.

However, I think that we don't know enough to really evaluate the situation...which is why they are both at fault, regardless.

Edited December 27, 2017 by JenJenBosco
posted too early

[smoker]

46 minutes ago, JMO said:

I don't think Haley married a workaholic.  I think she married her high school sweetheart, the 'worst third pirate', whose work ethic wasn't visible to her, back then.  I doubt either of them had any more of an idea what marriage would be like than any other couple starting out so young.  We can probably all point to stories of both success and failure in similar circumstances. 

As to having a child---I don't recall if we were told whether they'd been trying, and dealing with infertility, or if they'd simply decided to postpone having a family.  Were we?

I'm curious as to what makes you think Haley changed the terms of their marriage.

Sorry, I post my comment incomplete and I couldn't remove it.

 

We know they were together since high school, but we don't know when they got married.

And I think Hotch was pretty focused if he wanted to be a prosecutor.

Obviously, we don't know if they were having troubles to have a child, but they were pushing forty. They were mature enough to be aware of their lifestyle.

Well, if she agreed to be a stay at home mom knowing her husband's schedule, I think she changed her mind about something important to keep the balance of their home.

Edited December 27, 2017 by smoker

[Annber03]

28 minutes ago, JMO said:

I don't think Haley married a workaholic.  I think she married her high school sweetheart, the 'worst third pirate', whose work ethic wasn't visible to her, back then.  I doubt either of them had any more of an idea what marriage would be like than any other couple starting out so young.  We can probably all point to stories of both success and failure in similar circumstances. 

Beat me to it-I was just about to make this point myself. And even if she knew going in that she was marrying a guy who was devoted to his work, it's one thing to think you can handle it, to think you can overlook missed dinners and family nights, or vacations that were planned but don't happen (or get cut short), or other non-work related stuff of that sort, because duty calls. It's another entirely to actually experience it firsthand and realize just HOW much time and work and effort is involved. On both ends. 

There's also the fact that Hotch was a prosecutor before he joined the BAU, and that job is a whole different thing than working for the FBI and actively going into the field. Yes, Hotch would've encountered some painful cases and horrific criminals as a lawyer, too, but at least with that job, he wasn't chasing down bad guys and seeing bodies firsthand and upping his chances of potentially being seriously injured or killed on the job. And so once he got into the BAU, and Haley started seeing the toll some of these dark and scary cases took on him, and started having to worry more often about whether or not she'd get "that call"(hell, she got her first real taste of having to hide away from a potentially dangerous killer with the Fisher King case, when she and Jack had to go to a hotel)...I can totally understand her concern about his workaholic tendencies and devotion to his job becoming more common and frequent as a result. 

And no matter how understanding Haley could've been, would've been...she's still going to have days when she'll snap at him, and it may not have anything to do with him or his job specifically, just because everyone has bad days in general, too. Sometimes stress from unrelated situations can seep into other parts of your life. Sometimes you just get up on the wrong side of bed one day and are in a grumpy mood for no real specific reason. It happens. 

Edited December 27, 2017 by Annber03

[smoker]

38 minutes ago, JenJenBosco said:

 

Why is she being a hypocrate?  I only ask because I am confused, and I am still working my way through rewatching, so I haven't gotten that far so maybe I am forgetting.

The problem is that she didn't emotionally blackmail him into leaving.  They disagreed, they filed for divorce, and there was nothing about "if you leave the team, we can still be married", wouldn't that have be necessary to consider the divorce emotional blackmail?  I don't know, again, I could be missing something.

 

sorry, I am a bit slow writing, but I want to tell you, that just my point of view ;P

the thing that makes cringe is she knew, she was a 38 woman who knew her husband pretty well before their child was born. That's a fact. Nothing chaged after they had a baby, but Haley's exigencies. I think Hotch was oblivious at first and I think "In Name and Blood" was a bit of a slap in the face, I think it's unfair they didn't have more scenes to set things straight at least.

I do agree with you about Haley being passive aggressive and talking about their problems.

That's because I am on Hotch side, although I understand Haley pretty well.

38 minutes ago, JenJenBosco said:

Although I disagree that they had the baby during a shaky marriage.  I felt up until Machismo, where she is being passive aggressive -> which I disagree with entirely (if you have an issue, talk about it), They were happy and in love, and not having a shaky marriage.  I totally thought she was completely supportive.  

I think having Jack made her realize she wanted them to be a priority and Hotch's priority wasn't the family.  Should she have known this?  Yes.  Should they have talked about it?  Yes.  However, they obviously didn't talk about it or didn't agree and it ate away at her until she couldn't do it anymore.

I'm not on either side, they are both at fault for this, all I am saying is I understand both sides.

Edited December 27, 2017 by smoker

[JenJenBosco]

@Annber03,  I completely agree with you, and it's why I can see her side.  It's one thing to assume that you can handle difficult things like that, it's another to experience it, all of the time.

@smoker, I understand being on Hotch's side of things, especially because he's the main character, she's the side character, it's easy to see that he is an amazing agent, who is needed by the team and has saved lives, consistently.  It's easy to side with him because we see that is NEEDED by the team.  However, I wished that they were more scenes to explain the situation.  I feel like the problem is that we don't see the transition from the happy, expecting couple in the pilot to the woman who passive aggressively attacks his devotion to his work in Machismo, which continues until the fight in 'In Name and Blood' and results in their divorce.

One thing I never got was that Jessica states (at some point in the series) that they didn't split up because they fell out of love, but because of his job.  Which to me, completely sucks.  If Haley still loved him, why not find a way to accept that she couldn't have him the way she wanted to, seeing him sometimes versus not seeing him at all, seems stupid to me.  On the other hand, if she had fallen out of love with him, then it makes sense so that she could find someone to be her everything.  -> I don't know if I am making any sense with that.  Either way, still wished that we'd seen more.

[smoker]

1 hour ago, JenJenBosco said:

@Annber03,  I completely agree with you, and it's why I can see her side.  It's one thing to assume that you can handle difficult things like that, it's another to experience it, all of the time.

@smoker, I understand being on Hotch's side of things, especially because he's the main character, she's the side character, it's easy to see that he is an amazing agent, who is needed by the team and has saved lives, consistently.  It's easy to side with him because we see that is NEEDED by the team.  However, I wished that they were more scenes to explain the situation.  I feel like the problem is that we don't see the transition from the happy, expecting couple in the pilot to the woman who passive aggressively attacks his devotion to his work in Machismo, which continues until the fight in 'In Name and Blood' and results in their divorce.

One thing I never got was that Jessica states (at some point in the series) that they didn't split up because they fell out of love, but because of his job.  Which to me, completely sucks.  If Haley still loved him, why not find a way to accept that she couldn't have him the way she wanted to, seeing him sometimes versus not seeing him at all, seems stupid to me.  On the other hand, if she had fallen out of love with him, then it makes sense so that she could find someone to be her everything.  -> I don't know if I am making any sense with that.  Either way, still wished that we'd seen more.

I have to say I agree to a certain extent with Annber03 and JMO about Haley being in the hard side of the rope all the time, that's why I said I respect her right to chage her mind.

But I only can condone that before Jack's was born. I would be repeating myself and I don't want to... It's ok she hit her breaking point, as Rossi's said (or something similar). But she messed up two people's lives because she thought she could be pretending forever. Someone of her age should take more responsability of her actions.

I know I can't deny Hotch is my fav character and I guess I am a bit biased when he is againts other characters. Now, his marriage is another story. I love the healthy difference of opinion and the exchange of arguments and I stand by this one. I mean, in this particular matter, it's not about my love for Hotch, it is about personal experience.

I live surrounded by doctors and surgeons between consulting, researching and teaching there is not much time left. I have had this same chat with a friend, she doesn't like dating with people who are never around, if you can't have a proper amount of time together, why bother? However I know I wouldn't have any problem. And it's not only people with demanding jobs for whatever reason, some schedules just sucks and most of people I know, the two of them have to work to live properly. I think it is a problem many couples have to deal with.

And then there is their son, Hotch is an amazing father and he loves Jack, he was out a lot of time, yes, but I think the quality of the time he could have spent with his son is incalculable.

 

This "One thing I never got was that Jessica states (at some point in the series) that they didn't split up because they fell out of love, but because of his job.  Which to me, completely sucks. "

There are not enough words to say how much I do agree with this line of yours.

Sadly I can't elaborate righ now, but I'll come back xP

Edited December 27, 2017 by smoker

[JenJenBosco]

19 minutes ago, smoker said:

I have to say I agree to a certain extent with Annber03 and JMO about Haley being in the hard side of the rope all the time, that's why I said I respect her right to chage her mind.

But I only can condone that before Jack's was born. I would be repeating myself and I don't want to... It's ok she hit her breaking point, as Rossi's said (or something similar). But she messed up two people's lives because she thought she could be pretending forever. Someone of her age should take more responsability of her actions.

I know I can't deny Hotch is my fav character and I guess I am a bit biased when he is againts other characters. Now, his marriage is another story. I love the healthy difference of opinion and the exchange of arguments and I stand by this one. I mean, in this particular matter, it's not about my love for Hotch, it is about personal experience.

I live surrounded by doctors and surgeons between consulting, researching and teaching there is not much time left. I have had this same chat with a friend, she doesn't like dating with people who are never around, if you can't have a proper amount of time together, why bother? However I know I wouldn't have any problem. Plus, Jack, Hotch is an amazing father and he loves his son, he was out a lot of time, yes, but I think the quality of the time he could have spent with his son is incalculable.

 

This "One thing I never got was that Jessica states (at some point in the series) that they didn't split up because they fell out of love, but because of his job.  Which to me, completely sucks. "

There are not enough words to say how much I do agree with this line of yours.

Sadly I can't elaborate righ now, but I'll come back xP

Ahh I think I see what you've been trying to say.  You think that she never truly accepted his job, she was pretending that she could, and thought having a baby would fix the issue (because Hotch would be around more for the child).  That actually makes a lot of sense.  If she was pretending to herself and others that she was okay with his being away all the time, then it is sort of irresponsible to wait until after the baby is born to say something.  ->As if she should have realized it sooner.  

Now, for me, I believe that I can deal with someone who's busy or isn't around all of the time because I like to write or read alone, I don't need to be with them all of the time, and would enjoy the time they are away to be by myself.  However, it is different strokes for different folks...obviously Haley would be more like your friend.  

On the Hotch as a father note, I do think he's a great father, and focuses on the quality of time rather than quantity of time -> to me that's what's important.  If I didn't see my partner all week, but the time we did spend together was about us than it wouldn't bother me.  -> like I said above, if she still loved him wouldn't getting to see him a little mean more to her than not seeing him at all?  As long as it's good quality of time, it should make up for the missing time.

However, I look forward to hearing more when you get back!

[smoker]

3 hours ago, JenJenBosco said:

One thing I never got was that Jessica states (at some point in the series) that they didn't split up because they fell out of love, but because of his job.  Which to me, completely sucks.  If Haley still loved him, why not find a way to accept that she couldn't have him the way she wanted to, seeing him sometimes versus not seeing him at all, seems stupid to me.  On the other hand, if she had fallen out of love with him, then it makes sense so that she could find someone to be her everything.  -> I don't know if I am making any sense with that.  Either way, still wished that we'd seen more.

Absolutely agree and you are making sense!

I think that was a low blow and Jessica was out of line. I remember how disgusted made me feel that line.

Anyway, it was implied Haley was having an affair (and then it was swept under the rug). It's a wild guess, but I would say Jessica knew and that goes under my skin somehow and makes me look at Jessica with mistrust.

As you said, she didn't shared her life with anyone else (that we know). What's the point of divorce "the love of your life" because he doesn't keep you company and then being alone... I don't get it either. At least it is some kind of punishment.

And Jessica. I have always disliked her presence in "The slave of duty", she seems pretty insidious. Searching a way to keep Jack close, Her argument is a contradiction. Firstly, she says Hotch's job is the key stone of their tragedy (divorce, death) and then she tells him she will help him to keep that same job... Are you kidding me?

I didn't like what happened with Sean either, but I guess we'll never know if they didn't bring Eric Johnson back because of his schedule or they just "forgot" about Sean. I mean, they got Josh Steward once a year. It would been nice if writers had keep them in contact.

In the end, the main problem is there are a lot of holes in their story. I would have loved seeing more too.

[JenJenBosco]

18 minutes ago, smoker said:

Absolutely agree and you are making sense!

I think that was a low blow and Jessica was out of line. I remember how disgusted made me feel that line.

Anyway, it was implied Haley was having an affair (and then it was swept under the rug). It's a wild guess, but I would say Jessica knew and that goes under my skin somehow and makes me look at Jessica with mistrust.

As you said, she didn't shared her life with anyone else (that we know). What's the point of divorce "the love of your life" because he doesn't keep you company and then being alone... I don't get it either. At least it is some kind of punishment.

And Jessica. I have always disliked her presence in "The slave of duty", she seems pretty insidious. Searching a way to keep Jack close, Her argument is a contradiction. Firstly, she says Hotch's job is the key stone of their tragedy (divorce, death) and then she tells him she will help him to keep that same job... Are you kidding me?

I didn't like what happened with Sean either, but I guess we'll never know if they didn't bring Eric Johnson back because of his schedule or they just "forgot" about Sean. I mean, they got Josh Steward once a year. It would been nice if writers had keep them in contact.

In the end, the main problem is there are a lot of holes in their story. I would have loved seeing more too.

I agree that it was implied that Haley had an affair, but since we didn't know for sure, it seems like the divorce was more of a punishment.  Especially if she was still in love with him.  If she had an affair, then it could be that she generally needed a there all the time partner, which would make the divorce make sense.  

I never understood Jessica either, she supports Haley in her passive aggressiveness, and stating it was his job that was the problem, and then she offers to help him keep that job after blaming the job for her sister's death, and death of their marriage?  It makes no sense.

Now that I think about it, there are a lot of holes in the story.  Too bad they didn't use Route 66 to address that issue while Hotch sees Haley and the Reaper again.  

[smoker]

10 hours ago, JenJenBosco said:

Too bad they didn't use Route 66 to address that issue while Hotch sees Haley and the Reaper again.  

I don't know if that would make Route 66 better or worse :P
Everything is happening in Hotch's mind after all

But it would have been a nice touch if Hotch and Jessica had had a chat about Haley once in a while, because of Jack or about their relationship with her. God knows I would have paid to see Jessica telling Hotch she knew her sister was also a flawed human being. 

Edited December 28, 2017 by smoker

[Annber03]

2 hours ago, smoker said:

But it would have been a nice touch if Hotch and Jessica had had a chat about Haley once in a while, because of Jack or about their relationship with her. God knows I would have paid to see Jessica telling Hotch she knew her sister was also a flawed human being. 

Haley stayed with Jessica for a time after she and Hotch separated, right? I have no doubt that she and Jessica would've had many a late night chat during that time period where Haley just unloaded everything about her marriage, good and bad, onto her sister. I think it would've been interesting to see Jessica and Hotch acknowledge that part of things at some point after Haley's death. The potential awkwardness and bittersweet nature of those conversations, and whether or not to bring that stuff up or ask about it could have made for some good, tense scenes and moments, and would've provided the opportunity for Jessica to either confirm or reevaluate any opinions she might've had of Hotch now she's spending more time with him, as well as help Hotch come to terms with any lingering guilt he felt over the end of his marriage. 

[JenJenBosco]

So, I am finally watching Secrets and Lies, I didn't really like it the first time, so I wonder if it'll be any better this time.

Gideon has connections to the CIA, weird, and the CIA making it look like suicide, weird.  Although I do like that he knows he needs his team.   He works for the CIA, unofficially, weird.

"Call me cynical, but given that it's 2 AM it can't be good."  "You are a genius."

It's kind of weird they all walked into the office at the same time.  -> even at 2 in the morning, Hotch is in a suit, damn.

I liked Morgan explaining to Reid why they weren't handing over their weapons unlike they would have usually done so.

I love that Garcia is on a list.  It's too funny, poor JJ had to stay with her.  "I think that's exactly the kind of thing that got you on their list." -> LOL, I like JJ and Garcia working together.  "21 and 22 are here with us."  "What if it's one of them?" cue worried looks.  Luckily for them, it wasn't 21 or 22.

I liked the discussion on what can make you turn your back on your oath to server your country...everything you believe in to be a part of the BAU, CIA, etc.  -> Do you think that Elle went back on what she believed in when she killed William Lee?  or is this different because it's turning against the country as a while?

"It's not all physcobabble, I get my fair share of action." -> too much in the later seasons.

Also, do we ever hear about Clooney, again?

This episode has a very strange tenseness that was just weird.  Maybe it was knowing they were trapped with the unsub or something similar...I don't know.  It's just weird.

"What do you think it would take for someone to betray their country?" interesting question.

Another episode where Reid no problems at a computer, he found the container with the heat scanner, and directed them to the container.  Morgan's WTF look in the container is funny as hell.

Although I am still not a fan of the episode, I like the misdirects of thinking it's the other agents, when it was the leader guy all along.

"The only beach you'll see is the one on a post card I send you from my vacation." -> Except Gideon takes a vacation in the next episode and goes to the woods, and also hates the beach.  lol.

Up Next: Fisher King!  -> one of my all time favorite episodes.

[JenJenBosco]

The Fisher King 1!

I love the opening with the team.  Gideon: "Seriously, don't call." -> I feel you, Gideon.  Who was the woman he had a date with?

Elle and Morgan on vacation together, a little weird, but kind of cute.  Elle mentions that they have other teams.  -> not really mentioned, again.

Also, first appearance of 'Pretty Boy' nickname, also Morgan's concern is cute.  I love that Morgan offered it to him, too.  Clearly, Morgan has come to see him as a friend.

I think it's funny Hotch is happy his vacation is about a chore list Haley has created for him.  I loved their talk about the past, this is why I am convinced they were holding onto their past selves, but at least they had happy moments.

Poor Garcia and JJ, no vacations for you.  A little disappointed to see Garcia gaming at work, it should be an issue.  "When was the last time you had a date that went that well?" -> Too bad that date was fake by the unsub.

I love the introduction to Spence's mom, and knowing how difficult it is for him in that short scene with the nurse.  The love of writing and reading, and that she feels his cases are his adventures.  Bennington looks really nice.

I really love how happy all of them seem to be at the beginning before a psychopath brings them back.

This is the first time that there's a stalker after the team, but certainly not the last.  

All that room in that house, and he kept her in the basement?  Poor girl, it's even worse to know her fate in next year's finale.

Why the hell would the unsub call in the middle of the night?  What if Hotch forgot everything of didn't answer again?  Do you think Elle or Morgan ever went back to that resort?

I loved that Garcia's reaction after she realized she'd been hacked was to fight back unlike in later seasons -> I think in the 'Replicator' she just freaked, no?

I liked that they each got a piece of the puzzle.  A phone call, a head, a body, a key, butterflies, etc.

"You think I didn't see that, I don't know anyone in Jamaica." -> Gideon is beyond pissed, and totally confused about the body.

I liked Morgan and Hotch's instant defense of Elle.  -> true friends, no just co-workers. BAU lawyers and Hotch to the rescue, even out of the country.  Again the suit in even in Jamaica, damn Hotch.

I loved Garcia in this episode, she kicked ass when it comes to resolving the problem when someone attacks her grounds.

Did Morgan get anything?  If he did, I didn't catch it.  

Why did it take Reid longer to get back?  Was it because he didn't get the key until the next morning, while everyone else were notified around midnight?

"Reid, do not even go away, again."  -> I loved the smile by Reid at that.

"Definitely an Indiana Jones movie." -> LOL, Elle.

"Five people fishing." - yup that is definitely what you're doing, Hotch.  Fishing for an answer.

One Rule : "Only the members of your team may participate in thy quest."

I still don't understand how Gideon could sulk when everyone else finds a way to deal.  He's supposed to be the leader...honestly, I understand why the next year leads him to leaving as well.  Surprised it didn't happen sooner.  

Haley shows up with a note from the unsub, and I am surprised she doesn't look more freaked.  This could be part of the reason that she starts pushing harder for Hotch to quit.  -> she went into hiding at a hotel after the delivery.  That had to be scary.

Love that the message is a book code.  -> love that Spencer says he has no idea which book, but does eventually figure it out.  

Too bad Gideon broke that rule, and it would almost cost Elle her life.

Poor Anderson has no idea that Hotch wanted him to stay with her, meanwhile Gideon sulks.  Notice, Elle doesn't even make it to her bed.

Great ending to the season, definitely would have kept me watching to come back when the next season starts in September.  Except that I didn't have to wait.

On to Season 2

[idiotwaltz]

Quote

I never understood Jessica either, she supports Haley in her passive aggressiveness, and stating it was his job that was the problem, and then she offers to help him keep that job after blaming the job for her sister's death, and death of their marriage?

I’ve wondered about the practical childcare arrangements for Jack after Haley died. If Hotch is called to work in the middle of the night, does he call Jessica to come over and watch Jack? Or does he drop Jack off with Jessica before he heads to Quantico? Does Jessica work or is she supposed to take of Jack full time? 

At least Will is around to look after Henry and Michael when JJ is at work, plus Henry had a nanny. 

Topic ... I love the look of relief on Elle’s face when Hotch appears in the interview room, as well as the way he instinctive gives her his jacket and she puts it on. 

But seriously, these kids should never go on vacation. People die. 

[JenJenBosco]

8 hours ago, idiotwaltz said:

I’ve wondered about the practical childcare arrangements for Jack after Haley died. If Hotch is called to work in the middle of the night, does he call Jessica to come over and watch Jack? Or does he drop Jack off with Jessica before he heads to Quantico? Does Jessica work or is she supposed to take of Jack full time? 

At least Will is around to look after Henry and Michael when JJ is at work, plus Henry had a nanny. 

Topic ... I love the look of relief on Elle’s face when Hotch appears in the interview room, as well as the way he instinctive gives her his jacket and she puts it on. 

But seriously, these kids should never go on vacation. People die. 

I am totally confused by Hotch's arrangement for childcare as well.  As you pointed out, they can get calls in the middle of the night, what happens then?  Did Jessica move closer as well? (I was under the impression that she lived a decent amount away since Haley says "with you coming to visit it was easier to get him to take off" which implies that she doesn't live all that close, at least to me). -> Henry makes sense because he has his dad. 

LOL at your comment, the one time they go on vacation and bam -> death.  I felt so bad for the team, they are all excited and then devastation.  Maybe this is what started the no vacations thing?  

[Annber03]

Ahhhhhhh, "Fisher King". I love this episode. This two-parter is what really properly kickstarted my interest in this show-I'd seen a few episodes of it here and there prior to this point, and had liked what I had seen, but something about this, along with my viewing of season 2 (which I'll get into in that thread), finally made me go, "You know, I should really check out this show further...". 

Quote

I love the opening with the team.  Gideon: "Seriously, don't call." -> I feel you, Gideon.  Who was the woman he had a date with?

Wasn't it Sarah he was with? His lady friend who was later murdered? 

Quote

Elle and Morgan on vacation together, a little weird, but kind of cute.  Elle mentions that they have other teams.  -> not really mentioned, again.

Also, first appearance of 'Pretty Boy' nickname, also Morgan's concern is cute.  I love that Morgan offered it to him, too.  Clearly, Morgan has come to see him as a friend.

I think it's funny Hotch is happy his vacation is about a chore list Haley has created for him.  I loved their talk about the past, this is why I am convinced they were holding onto their past selves, but at least they had happy moments.

Poor Garcia and JJ, no vacations for you.  A little disappointed to see Garcia gaming at work, it should be an issue.  "When was the last time you had a date that went that well?" -> Too bad that date was fake by the unsub.

I love the introduction to Spence's mom, and knowing how difficult it is for him in that short scene with the nurse.  The love of writing and reading, and that she feels his cases are his adventures.  Bennington looks really nice.

I really love how happy all of them seem to be at the beginning before a psychopath brings them back.

I love the whole thing of them all on vacation, too. I would honestly happily watch an entire episode of them just hanging out on vacation, be it together or separately :). No cases to worry about, no drama and heartache hanging over their heads. Just an hour of them kicking back and having fun and smiling, and perhaps spending time with family. I know that will never happen due to the type of series this is, obviously, but still. It'd be a nice little break all the same. These poor people deserve a good, long rest. 

Hotch getting all excited to go home and spend time with Haley and Jack is so bittersweet. I love seeing him smile so much. 

I wish JJ and Garcia could've gotten to go do their own thing, too. It would've been a good way to introduce us to either of their families, or maybe the two of them could go do something fun together or whatever. I'm curious why Garcia's even at work at all if she's got the time free to bum around playing video games. I'd assume it's probably in case those "other teams" that Elle mentions might need her services, but if that's so, then it would make sense to see what kind of work she'd be doing for them as a result, or at least hear mention of it. Seeing/hearing about her doing work for other teams also could've added an extra wrinkle to her system being hacked-not only is the BAU at risk, but it would've put those other teams at risk, too.

I too find it interesting that Morgan and Elle have decided to jet off to an island together. I liked their interactions on the show, too, so it's fun to see them hanging out together and joking around. And it's nice to see Elle so at ease and relaxed, too. Shame Reid didn't take Morgan up on his offer-it would've been fun to see how he would've handled a beach vacation, and seeing him interacting with Morgan and Elle throughout :D. 

And speaking of Reid, I remember the first time I saw this episode I was actually a bit surprised to see Reid abruptly change his mind about visiting his mom upon seeing her. But at the same time, I get that reaction. It's always tough to see a parent struggling with a health issue, no matter how long you've been dealing with said issue. 

Quote

All that room in that house, and he kept her in the basement?  Poor girl, it's even worse to know her fate in next year's finale.

Your second sentence reminds me that I kinda wish the show had delved more deeply into the team's reactions to losing Rebecca at the end of the second season. Maybe Gideon could've talked about that more in his letter he left for Reid at the start of season three, despairing over the fact that the team did so much to save this girl from the Fisher King only for another unsub, one that Gideon had followed and tried to stop for years, to come along and take her out. How would Reid feel about her dying, given the connections between Rebecca, her dad, and Diana Reid? Hotch, Reid, and Morgan managed to save her from the burning house, but they couldn't save her from Breitkopf. That would've weighed on them, too, for sure. And so on. 

Quote

I loved that Garcia's reaction after she realized she'd been hacked was to fight back unlike in later seasons -> I think in the 'Replicator' she just freaked, no?

She did freak, yes, but I seem to recall her forging ahead to try and work around the system being down, too. Frankly, my bigger question is why the FBI hasn't put the tightest anti-hacking means on her computers that they could by now. I know that hackers can and will try and find ways around that stuff, but still. They've been hacked way too many times to where that should've been a pressing concern for the higher ups. 

Quote

I liked Morgan and Hotch's instant defense of Elle.  -> true friends, no just co-workers. BAU lawyers and Hotch to the rescue, even out of the country.  

Agreed. And I too love Hotch giving Elle his jacket to cover herself. It's those kinds of little moments with the characters that got my attention when I first caught this episode.

Quote

Did Morgan get anything?  If he did, I didn't catch it.  

You know, I don't think he did. That's interesting. I wonder why that is. 

Quote

"Reid, do not even go away, again."  -> I loved the smile by Reid at that.

"Definitely an Indiana Jones movie." -> LOL, Elle.

Loved these moments, too :D. And I like the little nod Elle gives, too, as she listens to Reid rattle off the different times. Like, "There we go, thank you, Reid." 

Quote

I still don't understand how Gideon could sulk when everyone else finds a way to deal.  He's supposed to be the leader...honestly, I understand why the next year leads him to leaving as well.  Surprised it didn't happen sooner.  

I imagine the reason the others decided to leave him alone to sulk had a lot to do with his past nervous breakdown. Maybe they didn't know if he was on the verge of one again, and didn't want to push him too much. 

But even if that were the case, as much as I can sympathize with that, at the same time, he was so determined, when he came back to the team at the start of the series/season, that he could do his job, so one would think this personal invasion would've lit a fire under him as a result.. If he could manage to confront Bale early on in the season, after all...

Quote

Haley shows up with a note from the unsub, and I am surprised she doesn't look more freaked.  This could be part of the reason that she starts pushing harder for Hotch to quit.  -> she went into hiding at a hotel after the delivery.  That had to be scary.

Exactly. It's so eerie to think of how much this foreshadows the danger she and Jack will find themselves in a few seasons later :/. 

Quote

Love that the message is a book code.  -> love that Spencer says he has no idea which book, but does eventually figure it out.  

Reid's determination and focus on this case is so good to watch :D. Not only did this whole two-parter start up my deeper interest in the series, but it was responsible for starting my crush on Reid as well. 

Quote

Poor Anderson has no idea that Hotch wanted him to stay with her, meanwhile Gideon sulks.  Notice, Elle doesn't even make it to her bed.

Anderson is an interesting side character. I like the way he randomly pops up on some of these bigger cases. Wonder if we'll ever learn much more about him. 

I feel tired just watching Elle in this episode. The idea of being up for 36 hours is exhausting to think about. 

Regarding your thoughts on "Secrets and Lies", yeah, I'm not all that big on that episode, either. But I do like that it goes a little off the beaten path in terms of its setup and premise, at least, and there are some good little moments with the team, and their interactions with the CIA people. 

Edited December 29, 2017 by Annber03

[JenJenBosco]

7 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Ahhhhhhh, "Fisher King". I love this episode. This two-parter is what really properly kickstarted my interest in this show-I'd seen a few episodes of it here and there prior to this point, and had liked what I had seen, but something about this, along with my viewing of season 2 (which I'll get into in that thread), finally made me go, "You know, I should really check out this show further...". 

Wasn't it Sarah he was with? His lady friend who was later murdered? 

I totally believed that this episode would be a great one to get someone interested.  I absolutely love the Fisher King.

Oh!  you're right, I think it was Sarah, I forgot that she was key to next season's finale...that makes so much more sense now.  

7 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

I love the whole thing of them all on vacation, too. I would honestly happily watch an entire episode of them just hanging out on vacation, be it together or separately :). No cases to worry about, no drama and heartache hanging over their heads. Just an hour of them kicking back and having fun and smiling, and perhaps spending time with family. I know that will never happen due to the type of series this is, obviously, but still. It'd be a nice little break all the same. These poor people deserve a good, long rest. 

Hotch getting all excited to go home and spend time with Haley and Jack is so bittersweet. I love seeing him smile so much. 

I wish JJ and Garcia could've gotten to go do their own thing, too. It would've been a good way to introduce us to either of their families, or maybe the two of them could go do something fun together or whatever. I'm curious why Garcia's even at work at all if she's got the time free to bum around playing video games. I'd assume it's probably in case those "other teams" that Elle mentions might need her services, but if that's so, then it would make sense to see what kind of work she'd be doing for them as a result, or at least hear mention of it. Seeing/hearing about her doing work for other teams also could've added an extra wrinkle to her system being hacked-not only is the BAU at risk, but it would've put those other teams at risk, too.

I too find it interesting that Morgan and Elle have decided to jet off to an island together. I liked their interactions on the show, too, so it's fun to see them hanging out together and joking around. And it's nice to see Elle so at ease and relaxed, too. Shame Reid didn't take Morgan up on his offer-it would've been fun to see how he would've handled a beach vacation, and seeing him interacting with Morgan and Elle throughout :D. 

I would absolutely love an hour or two just watching them on vacation.  I was a little surprised that Elle and Morgan went together, but maybe they really bonded in Charm and Harm, which was why he invited her.  I wish Reid had taken Morgan up on his offer -> I would have loved to see it.  

As for Hotch, it was hard to watch knowing what's in store for him.  

As for JJ and Garcia, I was surprised they didn't do anything with them, like introduce family or something or even have them take a break together for coffee or lunch or something.  Maybe Garcia was needed by other teams, but what they showed us was that she wasn't needed since she was playing video games at work.  -> I am surprised she didn't get crap for that.

7 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

And speaking of Reid, I remember the first time I saw this episode I was actually a bit surprised to see Reid abruptly change his mind about visiting his mom upon seeing her. But at the same time, I get that reaction. It's always tough to see a parent struggling with a health issue, no matter how long you've been dealing with said issue. 

Yes, it was a little sad and surprising that he shows up at the place, stands maybe 50 feet from her, but can't bring himself to talk to her.  We know that he's struggling with the possibility that he could inherit it, and we know that it was just him and his mom since he was ten, so it's clear that he's had a lot to deal with.  Especially because he was watching it on his own.

7 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Your second sentence reminds me that I kinda wish the show had delved more deeply into the team's reactions to losing Rebecca at the end of the second season. Maybe Gideon could've talked about that more in his letter he left for Reid at the start of season three, despairing over the fact that the team did so much to save this girl from the Fisher King only for another unsub, one that Gideon had followed and tried to stop for years, to come along and take her out. How would Reid feel about her dying, given the connections between Rebecca, her dad, and Diana Reid? Hotch, Reid, and Morgan managed to save her from the burning house, but they couldn't save her from Breitkopf. That would've weighed on them, too, for sure. And so on. 

I know, right?  We never saw the team react to it, they save her the year before, she's finally getting her life back and none of them react to that.  I really feel like they should have.  Also, Rebecca in the second season finale states that she met everyone but Gideon (I don't think she met Elle though, either) so they obviously all went to the hospital to check on her, so shouldn't they have cared a little more?

7 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

She did freak, yes, but I seem to recall her forging ahead to try and work around the system being down, too. Frankly, my bigger question is why the FBI hasn't put the tightest anti-hacking means on her computers that they could by now. I know that hackers can and will try and find ways around that stuff, but still. They've been hacked way too many times to where that should've been a pressing concern for the higher ups. 

Yes, I can't believe the FBI hasn't protected her computers by now, however, it's been so long since I have seen the Replicator that I don't remember if she forged ahead like she did here.  Truthfully though, the FBI should have noticed this keeps happening and fix it.

7 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Agreed. And I too love Hotch giving Elle his jacket to cover herself. It's those kinds of little moments with the characters that got my attention when I first caught this episode.

You know, I don't think he did. That's interesting. I wonder why that is. 

Loved these moments, too :D. And I like the little nod Elle gives, too, as she listens to Reid rattle off the different times. Like, "There we go, thank you, Reid." 

I totally loved that from Hotch giving Elle his jacket, and Elle's reaction to Reid knowing what to do.  His random knowledge was very appreciated here.

7 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

I imagine the reason the others decided to leave him alone to sulk had a lot to do with his past nervous breakdown. Maybe they didn't know if he was on the verge of one again, and didn't want to push him too much. 

But even if that were the case, as much as I can sympathize with that, at the same time, he was so determined, when he came back to the team at the start of the series/season, that he could do his job, so one would think this personal invasion would've lit a fire under him as a result.. If he could manage to confront Bale early on in the season, after all...

Ahh, that could be the case.  Actually his statement to Hotch about having nothing left gave me the impression that he was about to completely lose it again.  -> Gideon's been through alot this year, and even more next year.

7 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Exactly. It's so eerie to think of how much this foreshadows the danger she and Jack will find themselves in a few seasons later :/. 

Aww, I never thought about the foreshadowing for later seasons, but now, I can see it.  The Hotchner family, they were doomed from the start.  And yes, it is eerie.

7 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Reid's determination and focus on this case is so good to watch :D. Not only did this whole two-parter start up my deeper interest in the series, but it was responsible for starting my crush on Reid as well. 

I know, he was so adorable figuring this out.  

7 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Anderson is an interesting side character. I like the way he randomly pops up on some of these bigger cases. Wonder if we'll ever learn much more about him. 

I kind of wished we'd seen more of Anderson, he kind of pops in and pops out.  Do we even know his first name?

7 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

I feel tired just watching Elle in this episode. The idea of being up for 36 hours is exhausting to think about. 

Yeah, she had it rough, I can't imagine having to stay up that long, but her statement to Hotch in this episode when they first arrived back at the BAU was pure determination that she wouldn't sleep until they caught the guy.

7 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Regarding your thoughts on "Secrets and Lies", yeah, I'm not all that big on that episode, either. But I do like that it goes a little off the beaten path in terms of its setup and premise, at least, and there are some good little moments with the team, and their interactions with the CIA people. 

Finally, yeah, I like the difference in the episode, but overall it was just a little too weird for me.

[JMO]

For me, The Fisher King, especially part two, has such a campy feel to it, that it seems like it was always meant just to be enjoyed, and not to be taken seriously.  The logic issues are huge and endless, and yet it's so much fun that it's one of my favorites.  I think MGG was outstanding in showing us a Reid who was simultaneously excitable and burdened, and Jane Lynch brought the perfect amount of brittleness to Diana's personality.   Absolutely none of the episode made sense, and yet I enjoyed it immensely, for all of the reasons you have mentioned, JenJen and Annber.  

[Annber03]

1 hour ago, JenJenBosco said:

I totally believed that this episode would be a great one to get someone interested.  I absolutely love the Fisher King.

Oh!  you're right, I think it was Sarah, I forgot that she was key to next season's finale...that makes so much more sense now.  

Yeah, this definitely would make for a good introductory episode for a newbie fan :). They can learn a lot about all the characters through it, and the case is twisty enough to where it'd keep them interested. 

As sad as it is to know what's coming for people like Sarah or Rebecca down the line, I like that the show brought them back for the following season's finale, simply because it's a good bit of continuity. 

Quote

As for Hotch, it was hard to watch knowing what's in store for him.  

As for JJ and Garcia, I was surprised they didn't do anything with them, like introduce family or something or even have them take a break together for coffee or lunch or something.  Maybe Garcia was needed by other teams, but what they showed us was that she wasn't needed since she was playing video games at work.  -> I am surprised she didn't get crap for that.

She did get criticized by some of the other team members for doing that, but yeah, I would think that'd warrant a little tougher response of some kind, too. We don't see her playing video games at work again after that that I can recall, though, so at least she learned from that mess. 

Regarding Hotch, I meant to say earlier that I really love the whole "pirate hat" story. The idea of Hotch deciding to join a school play just to get to know Haley, and his memories of his early crush on her, are so damn cute :D. As is the image of him in that hat. I would've let him keep it, too :). 

I also like Haley's reaction upon seeing the yearbook photos. "Oh, my god, look at my hair!" :p. 

Quote

Yes, it was a little sad and surprising that he shows up at the place, stands maybe 50 feet from her, but can't bring himself to talk to her.  We know that he's struggling with the possibility that he could inherit it, and we know that it was just him and his mom since he was ten, so it's clear that he's had a lot to deal with.  Especially because he was watching it on his own.

Mmhm. And as welcome as his presence would've no doubt been for her, it would've been a frustrating visit, too, because she was clearly having one of her bad days, so all his visit would've consisted of was him sitting there listening to her saying things that don't make sense and barely registering the fact he's there. It'd be easy for him to wonder if there's really much else he could do for her that the doctors haven't already done. 

Quote

I know, right?  We never saw the team react to it, they save her the year before, she's finally getting her life back and none of them react to that.  I really feel like they should have.  Also, Rebecca in the second season finale states that she met everyone but Gideon (I don't think she met Elle though, either) so they obviously all went to the hospital to check on her, so shouldn't they have cared a little more?

Good point about the team having visited her, I forgot about that! Yeah. That makes it even more odd that there wasn't much reaction or discussion. 

Quote

Ahh, that could be the case.  Actually his statement to Hotch about having nothing left gave me the impression that he was about to completely lose it again.  -> Gideon's been through alot this year, and even more next year.

I think you're right. I think in the end, Gideon ultimately came to the painful realization that he came back to work a lot sooner than he probably should've. I don't blame him for wanting to come back, of course, 'cause he doesn't really seem the sort to just sit still for very long, and the fact he was willing to try again and attempt to face his demons and overcome the tragedy that led to his breakdown is admirable. But I do think he wasn't fully honest with himself for the longest time about how he was (or wasn't) coping with all he'd been through, too. 

Quote

I kind of wished we'd seen more of Anderson, he kind of pops in and pops out.  Do we even know his first name?

I think I saw mention somewhere once that his first name is Grant? 

Quote

Yeah, she had it rough, I can't imagine having to stay up that long, but her statement to Hotch in this episode when they first arrived back at the BAU was pure determination that she wouldn't sleep until they caught the guy.

Mmhm. And again, an admirable attitude to have, but I was with Hotch on insisting she get some sleep. Shame the only chance she got to actually get any attempt at rest was when she was in the hospital. 

Edited December 29, 2017 by Annber03

[JenJenBosco]

7 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Yeah, this definitely would make for a good introductory episode for a newbie fan :). They can learn a lot about all the characters through it, and the case is twisty enough to where it'd keep them interested. 

As sad as it is to know what's coming for people like Sarah or Rebecca down the line, I like that the show brought them back for the following season's finale, simply because it's a good bit of continuity. 

I did like the continuity of use those two in the season two finale, and yes, perfect for a new fan.

7 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

She did get criticized by some of the other team members for doing that, but yeah, I would think that'd warrant a little tougher response of some kind, too. We don't see her playing video games at work again after that that I can recall, though, so at least she learned from that mess. 

Oh yeah, she did.  I guess I was just curious as to why there weren't official consequences, but at least she learned not to play at work.

7 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Regarding Hotch, I meant to say earlier that I really love the whole "pirate hat" story. The idea of Hotch deciding to join a school play just to get to know Haley, and his memories of his early crush on her, are so damn cute :D. As is the image of him in that hat. I would've let him keep it, too :). 

I also like Haley's reaction upon seeing the yearbook photos. "Oh, my god, look at my hair!" :p. 

They were totally cute in this episode, and I agree about the hat and the hair.

7 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Mmhm. And as welcome as his presence would've no doubt been for her, it would've been a frustrating visit, too, because all it'd consist of is him sitting there listening to her saying things that don't make sense and barely registering the fact he's there. It'd be easy for him to wonder if there's much else he could do for her that the doctors haven't already done. 

Yes, I think that's why he didn't visit often, it can't be easy, knowing that he can't do anything to help her.  I think that's why he committed her in the first place, he knew that there was nothing he could do, and it was too hard to see her everyday.  

7 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Good point about the team having visited her, I forgot about that! Yeah. That makes it even more odd that there wasn't much reaction or discussion. 

Exactly, that's why it's weird to me, too.

7 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

I think you're right. I think in the end, Gideon ultimately came to the painful realization that he came back to work a lot sooner than he probably should've. I don't blame him for wanting to come back, of course, 'cause he doesn't really seem the sort to just sit still for very long, and the fact he was willing to try again and attempt to face his demons and overcome the tragedy that led to his breakdown is admirable. But I do think he wasn't fully honest with himself for the longest time about how he was (or wasn't) coping with all he'd been through, too. 

I agree that the Gideon was lying to himself when he came back, but someone else should have seen that he was lying to himself as well.  I think this was the first time that he's realizing that he might not have what it takes to keep doing this job.  

7 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

I think I saw mention somewhere once that his first name is Grant? 

Oh, you know what, I did remember reading that somewhere.  I think it is Grant.

7 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Mmhm. And again, an admirable attitude to have, but I was with Hotch on that one. Shame the only chance she got to actually get any attempt at rest was when she was in the hospital. 

I agree with Hotch on this one, too.  She needed rest.  

[Mislav]

Oh, a good old "Fisher King"... I will have to "jump out" and admit I have such a love-hate relationship with that episode (well, those two episodes). Yes, we did learn a lot about characters' personal lives, and that was actually fun to watch, and the implementation of "Fisher King" myth into the murders was well done, and acting was great. But some things are just... glaringly... odd. Wrong, I daresay. Lots of things simply don't make sense. No offense, just my opinion. I am going to try and explain it the best I can.

 

 

#1 Apparently, Randall Garner obtained necessary information about the team members by hacking into Garcia's computer system. Information such as Hotch's phone number, address to Gideon's cabin etc. But her system crashed only after Elle was arrested, Gideon received a package containing a human head, etc. I guess he could have hacked into Garcia's computer system sometime prior, without raising an alarm, and later make it crash intentionally, as a taunt, but it still feels hacky to me.

 

#2 Hotel security didn't even look into the victims' adjoining room until Derek showed up? And Derek kicked the door in without pulling his gun out first? 

 

 

#3 After exonarating Elle and returning to Quantico, they learn that Frank Giles, who booked an adjoining room in that Jamaica hotel, has a criminal record, and is a resident of Quantico. I'm pretty sure that alone would have been enough for a warrant, and they must have found out his latest known address by that point, if they already knew his name and a crimimal record, without Garcia's help. But they don't immediately rush to his  residence. They only do that after Garcia informs them she identified Frank Giles as the hacker who hacked into her system.

 

 

#4 Speaking of which, if Frank Giles had a criminal record for armed robbery, rape and manslaughter, how was he able to travel from USA to Jamaica and then back to USA? There is no way he'd be granted a passport. It is not like he traveled under an alias and/or used falsified documents: it was made pretty obvious that he used his real name.

 

 

#5 Why were Frank Giles and that other ex-con on a vacation together, anyway? We know why Frank was there-but how did he convince the other guy to come along? How did that work out, exactly? Were they former cellmates? FWBs on a romantic getaway?

 

 

#6 True, this episode revealed next to nothing about Frank as a character: his exact pathology, how intelligent he was (or wasn't), etc. But would he really be that dumb to travel to Jamaica, and book a hotel room with his would-be-victim, under his real name? Did he plan to just flee and start a new life somewhere after Randall Garner paid him off? What if the police got to him first?

 

 

#7 Even if Randall Garner was that rich, would he really just leave that bag full of money in Frank Giles' apartment after murdering him?

 

 

#8 In the second part, they say that forensics recovered a partial fingerprint inside Elle's blood. But Randall Garner was badly burned in a fire, and it was shown that his hands were badly burned as well. True, we only saw that the outer part of his hands was badly burned, but still. Yes, he could still leave a fingerprint, only the one without rigid details, but on that crime scene photograph, it looked like a normal fingerprint.

 

 

#9 It is also revealed that Randall Garner was institutionalized in the same mental hospital as Spencer's mother. That is how he knew other information about team members, that weren't in Garcia's system (that JJ used to collected butterflies, that Gideon likes baseball, etc.). Spencer heard it from them, he would later mention that in his letters to his mother, and she would share those information with Randall. But Spencer joined BAU in 2004, and records that Garcia pulled up showed that Randall was institutionalized from 1998 to 2001. I guess Randall and Diane could have staid in touch through the letter correspondence, but that part was never explained. It was probably just a mistake on the writer's part/goof though.

 

 

#10 How did Randall Garner track down Rebecca, exactly? Did he hack into the adoption records too? Without raising any alarm?

 

 

Like I said, I do like "The Fisher King" due to an insight into the character's personal lives, a very interesting implementation of Fisher King myth into the crimes, and the first appearance of Spencer's mother. And we have seen far worse season finales. But the plot doesn't make much sense. I'm sorry.

[JenJenBosco]

@MISLAV

Oh, I know the plot doesn't make sense, but I love the episode that it doesn't bother me.  I never really think too deeply about whether or not the case makes sense, as long as I enjoy the way the team gets there.  It was fun to watch the team figure it out.  It was fun to see how the clues fit together.  That was enough for me to enjoy it and consider it a great episode.  

I understand all of those questions, and had I been trying to piece it together and wanted it to be logical, like a real story, I would have liked it less, but I wasn't, so I enjoyed it.  

[Annber03]

4 hours ago, Mislav said:

#5 Why were Frank Giles and that other ex-con on a vacation together, anyway? We know why Frank was there-but how did he convince the other guy to come along? How did that work out, exactly? Were they former cellmates? FWBs on a romantic getaway?

I've actually wondered about that, too, sometimes when watching the show :p. Yeah. I'd like to know more about that part of the backstory. 

(I like your FWB suggestion :D!)

[JenJenBosco]

Just now, Annber03 said:

I've actually wondered about that, too, sometimes when watching the show :p. Yeah. I'd like to know more about that part of the backstory. 

(I like your FWB suggestion :D!)

I loved that, too.

@Mislav

By the way, it probably didn't show through my response, but I did love your questions, they were all good questions.

[JMO]

Just caught the last few minutes of The Fisher King Part 1, and was reminded of something that's always bothered me.  Elle comes home to her house, where she uses the key to unlock the door, and then immediately locks it again from the inside.  Then she stretches out on the window seat, over which two first floor windows have been left wide open.  Seriously?  She makes a living fighting serial killers, and leaves her windows wide open when she's not home?  Not so smart, Elle.

[normasm]

Yeah, I always thought she was so exhausted she didn't notice, but, yeah.

[Danielg342]

Maybe she didn't leave the windows open- it's how Randall Garner broke in.

[JMO]

I do think it's how he broke in.  But there are two windows open, neither broken.  Just sloppy.  

[rainbowrockgal]

1 hour ago, Danielg342 said:

Maybe she didn't leave the windows open- it's how Randall Garner broke in.

I thought they said he broke in the back door. Elle wouldn't have noticed as she just plopped down on the window seat.

[normasm]

I do not think she left the windows open. He broke in,as he had several other places in the episode, and he left the windows open, for dramatic affect.

All we really see of her place is the front room and the front door, no telling where he broke in, but not likely, IME, through the windows.

Edited June 10, 2018 by normasm

[beckie]

Just got the season one DVDs and can't wait to start watching!

[Annber03]

1 hour ago, beckie said:

Just got the season one DVDs and can't wait to start watching!

Enjoy :)! Feel free to share your thoughts as you work through them if you wish. 

[Brookside]

I haven't watched this show before, but there's a bingeathon I've got sucked into (funny how that happens).  I'm quite enjoying it, but they really need to stop trying to make the word "unsub" a thing.

[Mislav]

15 hours ago, Brookside said:

I haven't watched this show before, but there's a bingeathon I've got sucked into (funny how that happens).  I'm quite enjoying it, but they really need to stop trying to make the word "unsub" a thing.

Well, it seems to have worked.

[Danielg342]

18 hours ago, Brookside said:

I haven't watched this show before, but there's a bingeathon I've got sucked into (funny how that happens).  I'm quite enjoying it, but they really need to stop trying to make the word "unsub" a thing.

Keep in mind, though, when those episodes first aired over a decade ago, CM was the only show that used "profilers" (a job title that doesn't actually exist in the FBI) as well as "UnSub" as a term (an actual law enforcement term).

Now, every show that seems to have even a little bit of a law enforcement bent uses those terms (even Whiskey freakin' Cavalier has a profiler), which could be why hearing the show use it now seems so awkward.

[BooksRule]

I wish I'd known that Sundance Channel was starting their Criminal Minds rotation over today.  I did catch a couple of episodes while I was doing some chores around the house this evening.  I had 'The Fox' on in the background and had to come back in the room when the song 'Illabye' by Tipper started playing.  I know that they've used it in a couple of other episodes, but I find it really haunting.  Definitely a demented lullaby, it brings up a vision of Rosemary's Baby's nursery or something. 

[latincoffee]

I'm so enjoying CM. I used to watch different eps from different seasons as they aired on TV but now with Netflix--I am halfway through S1. I enjoy all the characters. My fave is Gideon. However, The rest: Reid, Hotch, Elle, Morgan, Garcia, and JJ are cool, too. They all work so well together. 

[Annber03]

3 hours ago, latincoffee said:

My fave is Gideon. 

It's not often I hear people say this :D. Gideon tends to be a rather polarizing character among fans much of the time.

But I'm glad you like him-I find him interesting, too-and I'm glad you're enjoying the show as a whole! Feel free to share more of your thoughts on the show if you wish as you continue working your way through the series :). 

[latincoffee]

48 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

It's not often I hear people say this :D. Gideon tends to be a rather polarizing character among fans much of the time.

But I'm glad you like him-I find him interesting, too-and I'm glad you're enjoying the show as a whole! Feel free to share more of your thoughts on the show if you wish as you continue working your way through the series :). 

Thanks @Annber03 I sure will.  CM is a rocking series!!

Edited January 27, 2020 by latincoffee

[Danielg342]

On 12/27/2017 at 3:07 PM, JMO said:

I don't think Haley married a workaholic.  I think she married her high school sweetheart, the 'worst third pirate', whose work ethic wasn't visible to her, back then.  I doubt either of them had any more of an idea what marriage would be like than any other couple starting out so young.  We can probably all point to stories of both success and failure in similar circumstances. 

I could be completely wrong on this, but I don't believe there were any references to marital problems for Hotch until S2. That seems to be more when the show leaned in to the Hotch divorce story- in S1, the Hotchners were happily married. This could explain inconsistencies in the divorce storyline in S1.