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Unspoiled Speculation: Well, I DIDN'T Read It In A Book


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No open air spoilers of any kind in here, thanks.

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Pulling out my pen to write the next chapter.... I think that Tyrion hopes that his "crew" (which now includes Brienne to guard Sansa) all end up safely wherever he sent Shae. He has a safe house overseas and a plan but might not get to fully implement it because they won't be able to find Sansa until next season.

 

My speculation for the trial:  Tyrion "plea bargains" to be sent to the Wall.  He confesses and says he ordered Sansa away (asserting that she is totally innocent so that no one else will look for her).  Bronn will go with him. They will meet up with Brienne and Pod.

 

I want Brienne to carve up the cannibals and Pod to have her back.  I'm saving Ygritte for myself.  

 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it for at least the next 72 hours.

 

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Speculation for the trial is a nice idea.

 

My guess: That Tyrell dude saysTyrion's gilty (because he has to, Olenna needs a scapegoat), Oberyn says he's not (because he's awesome) and it all comes down to Tywin. Who will...maybe let him live because he needs an heir? But I think Tywin will have the swing vote and will begrudingly set Tyrion free. Cue Cersei, hating it and swallowing all of the Lannister wine supplies. The end.

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Yes, I too think that Tyrion won't be sentenced to death. Oberyn and Tywin don't think he's guilty and I don't see Tywin essentially killing his own son. Like he said once, he could have killed him when he was born and his wife died during labor, but he didn't.

Sending him to the Wall is a good idea and quite possible. It's almost as good as a death sentence. Maybe Bronn could kill all the guards on the way, or maybe Lysa and LF would hear of it and capture him (again), which would reunite him with Sansa.

I'll be very very surprised if the show kills Tyrion. We know no one's safe, but still.

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Bronn's a sellsword and has been pretty adamant that he sells his sword, he doesn't loan it out to friends.

 

So I don't see accompanying Tyrion in any kind of internal exile.

 

For that matter, if he should ever somehow get wind of the state of the Lannister gold mines, I imagine he's sell his sword to someone with actual money ,and not just a charge card from the Iron Bank.

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Yes, I too think that Tyrion won't be sentenced to death. Oberyn and Tywin don't think he's guilty and I don't see Tywin essentially killing his own son. Like he said once, he could have killed him when he was born and his wife died during labor, but he didn't. Sending him to the Wall is a good idea and quite possible. -Isazouzi

Agree with the first three sentences. But I don't think The Wall is an option when you kill the king in this particular way (as opposed to how Jaime did it). I think you've got to die. That's why I think Tyrion will get off - three votes.

 

Connected to this...Olenna Tyrell seems unsentimental, shrewd and calculating, but not vicious (despite having Joffrey murdered). Why, then would she let Tyrion Lannister be tried and possibly executed for Joffrey’s murder? Does she have some backup plan that will save him in the end?

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I guess it all depends on how a trial works in Westeros. How is anyone supposed to prove anything? All they know is that Joff has been poisoned, but they don't know how. There's no DNA, no autopsy, no nothing, so I feel it's going to be a major case of "Yes, he murdered my son because he hated us", "No I didn't because [insert Tyrion's defense]. And the judges will be like "Yeah, we can't really know, so we won't execute Tyrion, but we can compromise and send him to the Wall [or jail, or exile, or whatever].

Olenna is the only one who knows anything for sure, but why and how could she stand up for Tyrion? The only possible move, IMO, is to blame Sansa, the only one who did run away. But I don't see how Olenna could bring the murder weapon, aka the necklace, into this without giving herself away.

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Too bad Tyrion doesn't have the right to trial by combat as he did when he was at the Eyrie.

Well, then it would be Bronn vs. The Mountain. He probably would stand a better chance than in a rigged trial, but not by much.

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Too bad Tyrion doesn't have the right to trial by combat as he did when he was at the Eyrie.

 

He doesn't? Kind of a shame, really. Anyway, I think somebody will stand up for him. Maybe not officially, but nonetheless. My money's on Varys. We haven't seen him quite a while and he's kinda just the opposite of LF. So he's up to do good, I hope.

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I doubt Bronn. We already had it. I say Oberyn. Or Loras. He could do something interesting, finally. Or still Jamie, however he would manage to pull that off. I'd love it to be the Hound, but that can't happen.

 

Bigger question: Who's Tywin's candidate? Jamie, no way. Who else? Some Kingsguard bitch? Meryn Trant (sp?)? Who?

 

Oh, and Varys? Great to see him back. But WTF was that?

Edited by Conan Troutman
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(edited)

I doubt Bronn. We already had it. I say Oberyn. Or Loras. He could do something interesting, finally. Or still Jamie, however he would manage to pull that off. I'd love it to be the Hound, but that can't happen.

Oberyn might do it if the other champion was the Mountain. It might be harder for the Mountain to cheat in such a public fight. But I still don't understand why Oberyn didn't have the Mountain killed years ago.

I'd be surprised if it was Loras since he's betrothed to the woman prosecuting Tyrion.

I don't know if Jaimie has had enough practice to fight to the death yet.

 

Bigger question: Who's Tywin's candidate? Jamie, no way. Who else? Some Kingsguard bitch? Meryn Trant (sp?)? Who?

I doubt Meryn Trant. The Hound has a pretty dim opinion of Ser Meryn's skill, as does Bronn. I suspect the Lannisters have some idea as well.

 

Oh, and Varys? Great to see him back. But WTF was that?

Storms come and go

The big fish eat the little fish

And Varys keeps on paddling.

Edited by Constantinople
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The trial by combat speculation is fun. 

Oberyn would relish the chance to defeat the Mountain so, if the Crown names the Mountain I could see Oberyn standing for Tyrion.  I'm not sure Oberyn gains as much by standing for Tyrion against anyone else.  

If the Crown names Meryn (?), the icky Kings Guard dude, then I can see Jaime fighting him.  

 

 

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Yeah, the Mountain vs Oberyn would make sense. And Tywin may very well name the Mountain. Apparently the best fighter they currently have. Tywin might even foresee that that would lead to Oberyn fighting the Mountain in a "fair" fight (instead of taking him on in a place of Oberyn's chosing) and so he could get rid of Oberyn without risking more bad blood between Lannisters and Martells. The only thing Tywin doesn't know is that Oberyn would win because that's how TV, even GoT, works (and because he's awesome, of course). 

 

I'd be surprised if it was Loras since he's betrothed to the woman prosecuting Tyrion.

I don't know if Jaimie has had enough practice to fight to the death yet.

 

Does Loras care about that? He might even see it as a good opportunity to piss her off. Besides, I just want him to do something. He's been a pretty boring and passive character since way back in season one. Didn't he lose to the Mountain at a tournament, only to be saved by the Hound? So if Tywin nominates the Mountain, Loras would have a chance at a rematch. I doubt Tyrion would get the idea to name him, but he'll probably have to ask for volunteers, anyway. 

 

As toomuchcoffee wrote in the episode thread, if Jamie were to be Tyrion's candidate, Tywin would risk losing both possible heirs and of course he couldn't let that happen. So we wouldn't get that fight scene that way, which we totally want. So yes, no Jamie as Tyrion's candidate. 

Edited by Conan Troutman
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I wonder what crazy person in the Riverlands or the Vale will attack the Hound, and thus Arya, for 100 pieces of silver.

 

Jeez. If The Mountain is one of the champions, I sure hope he's Tyrion's guy.  I don't like ANYBODY'S chances against that guy.

Someone with a fast fighting style, as opposed to a brute strength fighting style, might win if he's fast enough to get out of the way, but still strong enough to get past the Mountain's armor, or find its weak spots.

That being said, the Hound fought well against the Mountain back in Season 1, though obviously he isn't available.

 

 

Does Loras care about that? He might even see it as a good opportunity to piss her off. Besides, I just want him to do something. He's been a pretty boring and passive character since way back in season one. Didn't he lose to the Mountain at a tournament, only to be saved by the Hound? So if Tywin nominates the Mountain, Loras would have a chance at a rematch. I doubt Tyrion would get the idea to name him, but he'll probably have to ask for volunteers, anyway.

Loras actually beat the Mountain at jousting, though I think there was some hint that perhaps Loras cheated. The Mountain was so angry he decapitated his horse and then blindsided Loras by taking a swing at him. But the Hound did comes to Loras's rescue.

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Someone with a fast fighting style, as opposed to a brute strength fighting style, might win if he's fast enough to get out of the way, but still strong enough to get past the Mountain's armor, or find its weak spots.

 

 

That reminds me of Arya and the Hound. She did manage to stab him with Needle (in his armor, but still) but the punch she got for it wasn't worth it. So the first stroke would need to be fatal.

 

 

Loras actually beat the Mountain at jousting, though I think there was some hint that perhaps Loras cheated. The Mountain was so angry he decapitated his horse and then blindsided Loras by taking a swing at him. But the Hound did comes to Loras's rescue.

 

It was more than a hint. Loras chose on purpose a mare in heat so that the Mountain's horse would become uncontrollable. That's why he decapitated it, because he felt it was its fault he'd lost. Loras is not a Tyrell for nothing.

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Someone with a fast fighting style, as opposed to a brute strength fighting style, might win if he's fast enough to get out of the way, but still strong enough to get past the Mountain's armor, or find its weak spots.

 

If it's indeed Oberyn, he seems clever enough to use whatever he can to his advantage. Early this season, he said something about a big sword being useless in close quarters. So maybe that was a bit of foreshadowing. But I doubt he'll have that exact opportunity, as such a fight would probably take place in an arena or something like that. It'd be a huge event, so why not have spectators (and sell tickets, maybe? Helps with that Iron Bank stuff and I'd totally pay to see that fight)? They would have to wait for the Mountain anyway, since he's currently on a little rape-and-torture tour around Westeros.

 

 

That reminds me of Arya and the Hound. She did manage to stab him with Needle (in his armor, but still) but the punch she got for it wasn't worth it. So the first stroke would need to be fatal.

 

Agreed, she can't take too many chances. Aim for the throat and don't give them an opportunity to strike back.

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(edited)

If it's indeed Oberyn, he seems clever enough to use whatever he can to his advantage. Early this season, he said something about a big sword being useless in close quarters.

Also, after Joffrey's death, Tywin brought up his knowledge and use of poisons

(the reason his nickname is the Viper)

as why he was a possible suspect in his murder. So all he would need is a strike to hit once.

Edited by SilverStormm
Tagged mild spoiler not yet actually revealed in show
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Please let Tyrion be allowed to call Shagga. Based on what we've been seeing in some other locales, I think King's landing is way over-due for some overacting.

 

Jaime might discover that both sides expect him to fight for them.

 

About the crown's champion- it isn't just a question of who. It's also a question of what. There's still that other Valyrian sword left over from Joffrey. We might be seeing it again soon.

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On rewatch, now I got what Varys meant with his nod to the Iron Throne: He didn't mean he wanted it for himself, it was more of an hint for Oberyn: You (or your family) could sit on it, if you really want. This could get really interesting.

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Just had a thought. Shae must have told Littlefinger that Ros told her to be wary of hiim. Shae was spying for Littlefinger. This explains how Littlefinger knew Ros betrayed him and what Shae meant when she told Sansa that if he troubled her she would stop it. 

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When I think about a Mountain-Oberyn fight, all I see in my mind is Brad Pitt's opening scene in Troy: skinny Brad Pitt goes up against HUGE dude who laughs at him, but Achilles just gets really close. takes off in this jump, and stabs the guy right in the carotid. Done.

 

Tyrion described Oberyn in the first episode as being a "renowned warrior" but I'm not sure who or where he's been fighting. Also, the dude is pretty "old" for the story, if the grey in his beard is any indication, or his clear remembrance of the trip to Casterly Rock. 

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I like when Bronn said exactly what we'd been saying in this thread regarding fighting the Mountain: the first blow has to be lethal or you're done for. Now, as I've said in the episode thread, I expect Oberyn has a fighting technique or something to beat the Mountain. He's not the type to be so blinded by revenge to forget he has no chance of winning, so he must know he has one. And remember, Dorne was the only place that resisted the Targaryen invasion (with dragons!) and could only be incorporated to the 7 kingdoms through marriage, hence the special titles). I'd like to think it means something. Also I don't want Oberyn to die. He's way too awesome. We need him.

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Wondering how Lysa's death will affect Arya/Hound's plans and Brienne/Pod.

Tyrion described Oberyn in the first episode as being a "renowned warrior" but I'm not sure who or where he's been fighting. Also, the dude is pretty "old" for the story, if the grey in his beard is any indication, or his clear remembrance of the trip to Casterly Rock.

Perhaps the Mountain looks a bit too young given that he was old enough to serve in the rebellion, and older than his brother, The Hound.

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(edited)

All you have to do to beat The Mountain is keep dodging until, after about five minutes of screen time, it's time for him to change actors. Then you kill 4.0 while he's still busy getting into the armor.

Edited by CletusMusashi
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Well, on the one hand, it is nice to know that this show follows through on its foreshadowing and tossed somebody through the moon door just like we speculated here a couple weeks ago.  I had hoped it would be the kid and that maybe mom would jump in after him.  Maybe it will end up being the other way around.

 

On the other hand, I am not so happy the show follows through on its foreshadowing, because took The Hound's story about his brother to mean that it would be him who eventually gets his revenge. I mean, after that revelation to Arya, can I picture him just getting the news on the road that The Mountain is dead? No, I can't.

 

And I don't like where that train of thought brings me at all.

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All you have to do to beat The Mountain is keep dodging until, after about five minutes of screen time, it's time for him to change actors. Then you kill 4.0 while he's still busy getting into the armor.

The Cletus mightier than the Sword!

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On the other hand, I am not so happy the show follows through on its foreshadowing, because took The Hound's story about his brother to mean that it would be him who eventually gets his revenge. I mean, after that revelation to Arya, can I picture him just getting the news on the road that The Mountain is dead? No, I can't.

But not everyone gets his revenge on this show. And not every death is karmic. People just die because of the circumstances or because they simply are in the way. I never thought that the one who would finally off the Joff wouldn't be doing it because he or she was personally pissed off, but rather for strategic reasons (unless it would've been Stannis).

 

Of course this could also mean that Martin has set up Oberyn (and Tyrion with him) to die to shock his readers once more. But I don't think that's the case here, Oberyn's just way too interesting and entertaining (as opposed to Ned and Robb) to kill him off just yet. Besides, I guess the focus will shift more and more to the north with the Wild Walkers and the Wildlings threat. Therefore you have to get rid of some characters that are keeping the focus too much in KL - and what could be more entertainment than watching (or reading) Oberyn slice his way through some Lannister ass? I guess we get to see the downfall of the once proud house Lannister next season, and Joffrey's demise was only the beginning.

Edited by Conan Troutman
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Well, I certainly agree with the idea that not everybody gets his revenge and not every death is karmic on this show.

 

I'm just concerned because I don't know what to make of the scene between The Hound and Arya given that it happens so closely to when Oberyn volunteered to fight The Mountain.

 

Was it to remind us what a truly horrible human The Mountain is? Honestly, that was never a question in my mind, and the scene with him carving up those defenseless guys was a pretty good reminder just in case I forgot. 

 

Or was that scene not really about The Mountain at all, and it is the opposite of what I think? Could it be that the appearance of The Mountain again in the Tyrion/Oberyn story gave us an opportunity to bring it up in the Arya and Hound story as a way to move their interesting relationship along some more?

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I took pretty much everything between The Hound and Arya this week as a step forward in their acquaintance. It hasn't been a linear progression. It's tended to go forward, then back, then forward again, but I think there was enough forward progress this week to actually mean something. Maybe not much. But something.

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IIRC, The Hound did talk about the fact that is was his brother who burned him, but I think he said what was even worse was that his father covered it up. While the Hound is one of the most cynical characters on the show, I don't get the sense that he's carrying around a ton of resentment for his brother. YMMV.

 

I was so incredibly excited when Oberyn volunteered to be Tyrion's champion that I jumped off the couch! And because I'm so excited and happy, I am guessing the show is going to go in the opposite direction and completely break my heart. I'm really afraid for Oberyn, but even beyond that, I'm not sure how much he has to do on the show. If he manages to kill the Mountain, he could go for Tywin next, perhaps. I would love to see how he he would try to kill Tywin. But the guy doesn't seem meant to stick around - he hates King's Landing and almost everything about it, including that it's currently governed by Lannisters.

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All you have to do to beat The Mountain is keep dodging until, after about five minutes of screen time, it's time for him to change actors. Then you kill 4.0 while he's still busy getting into the armor.

 

I don't think The Other Darrin could stand in that armor.

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IIRC, The Hound did talk about the fact that is was his brother who burned him, but I think he said what was even worse was that his father covered it up. While the Hound is one of the most cynical characters on the show, I don't get the sense that he's carrying around a ton of resentment for his brother. YMMV.

When Arya was reciting her bedtime death list in the previous episode, the Hound said if they come across his brother perhaps that's one they can both cross of their lists.

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I can't see Oberyn losing because for him to lose would mean we lose Oberyn and Tyrion, and I don't think HBO would let that happen. They're not afraid to divert from the books when they choose (looking at you True Blood).

I'm new to this side of the Wall, having been directed here from the Unsullied, so hi!

I have a couple of theories- I'm really hoping the trio of Jamie, Bronn, and Oberyn come up with some way for Oberyn to win. My gut tells me those other two will help any way they can.

Anyone think Robin is actually LIttlefinger's son? he has a bird name- might have been as close as she could get to Mockingbird without giving it away.

And (carried over from the Unsullied) I truly hope that Tyrion goes looking for his wife. One thing has been constant in that marriage from the beginning- they have kindness and respect for each other, there is no cruelty between them, no ugly words. I'm actually cheering for that marriage to survive.

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I think Robin's LF's son, too. The question is, what difference does it make after he killed Lysa? Robin apparently doesn't know it (he calls him uncle) and Lysa can't confirm it. So maybe LF doesn't want to get rid of Robin, but killing him would've been a bad idea anyway, because LF would lose control of the Vale if he did so. 

 

Was it to remind us what a truly horrible human The Mountain is? Honestly, that was never a question in my mind, and the scene with him carving up those defenseless guys was a pretty good reminder just in case I forgot. 

 

Or was that scene not really about The Mountain at all, and it is the opposite of what I think? Could it be that the appearance of The Mountain again in the Tyrion/Oberyn story gave us an opportunity to bring it up in the Arya and Hound story as a way to move their interesting relationship along some more?

 

Could be a bit of both. I guess HBO just wanted to make sure that every viewer got a little reminder of his backstory. The last time we got some extended talk about the Mountain and the Hound's relationship was back in season 2 in "Blackwater", IIRC. Also serves as another bonding moment for Arya and the Hound. Maybe she'll take him off that list eventually (without killing him).  

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I'm new to this side of the Wall, having been directed here from the Unsullied, so hi!

Welcome! I think you'll find this side to be a little less Lysa.

 

So with some help in the s04e07 episode thread, I got my arms around where Arya and the Hound are, as well as where Brienne and Pod are, and it appears as though both pairs will arrive at The Eyrie very close to the same time.

 

There is just a whole bunch of different things that could happen when they get there. Will Sandor still get his money? What is Littefinger going to say about somebody coming for Sansa? It's all very interesting.

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Its incredible that Hot Pie would reveal details about Arya to a couple of strangers just because they enjoyed his pies. Hot Pie said he was sold to the inn by The Brotherhood. So there is slavery in Westeros. This is contradictory as the The Brotherhood are supposed to be champions of the common people. Gendry being sold by the blacksmith to the Nights Watch in season 1 was also contradictory, nights watch service is voluntary and they must swear an oath. This slavery in Westeros story is just a plot device to give Daenerys a reason for  invading and gaining alies.

 

As for Daenerys story in Esso. Its about time we saw some actual character development. Dario has been following her around just so he can get off with her. It seems she at some level realizes this, since she told Jorah she doesn't trust Dario. I see Dario as in it for the chase, can't see him wanting to settle down with Daenerys. Now he's got off with her, Dario has less reason to follow her and could proved to be a most dangerous enemy. His word means nothing, as Jorah said, he killed his commanders and aided in the attack on Yunkai, a city  the Second Son were paid to protect. At some point Dario, or the other 1999 cut throat  Second Son mercenary's may realize they can cut out the 'middle man' and take over cities themselves by turning the population against one another. Then, instead of being paid a wage they can keep all the gold and riches for themselves and lord it over the remaining populace.

 

Things don't look good for my favourite anti-hero, Sandor, The Hound. His opening up and his injury are classic red flags.If he has to go please let him go down fighting, slaughtering a host of outlaws trying to collect the 100 gold coin reward.  I'm hoping he gets to leave Westeros and plies his trade as a sell sword in Braavos. He'd be great at the wall too. Now that Pod and Brienne are on Arya's  track, I can see them finding her and hooking up after Sandor is gone. 

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(edited)

My understanding was that the no slavery thing was KIng Robert. Perhaps urged by his mentor Job Arryn, but very much specific to that particular administration.

Tywin himself has never indicated any problem with slavery, and I doubt he's been urging Tommen to focus on that particular issue. So the law is probably unchanged, but nobody in power actually gives a damn.

Joffrey, of course, thought that pretty much everyone he wasn't absolutely terrified of was a slave anyway.

ETA: Actually, the anti-slavery thing might have been more of a Stark thing than anyone else. We don't really know how serious Robert was about policing the slave trade, but Ned was the one who chases Jorah off the continent.

Edited by CletusMusashi
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It really surprises me that the hound has a bounty on his head for killing those Kings guard or Lanister troops in the inn. None of them were left alive after the hound had finish with them. Only the inn keeper and his daughter appeared to be left to tell the tale.

 

This is another example that the majority of the people of Westeros are not worth helping, aiding or saving. You would expect some gratitude from someone whose daughter was saved from assault and he himself was saved from theft and probable death. But no the in keeper and his daughter appear to have given a description of their good samaritan to the kings guard.  

 

If The Hound were a merciless killer, he'd have killed the inn keeper and his daughter before leaving and wouldn't be in this predicament. 

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It really surprises me that the hound has a bounty on his head for killing those Kings guard or Lanister troops in the inn. None of them were left alive after the hound had finish with them. Only the inn keeper and his daughter appeared to be left to tell the tale.

 

This is another example that the majority of the people of Westeros are not worth helping, aiding or saving. You would expect some gratitude from someone whose daughter was saved from assault and he himself was saved from theft and probable death. But no the in keeper and his daughter appear to have given a description of their good samaritan to the kings guard.  

 

If The Hound were a merciless killer, he'd have killed the inn keeper and his daughter before leaving and wouldn't be in this predicament.

What else could the inn keep have done?

If he disposes of the bodies, he risks being implicated in their deaths if anyone sees him. If he doesn't dispose of them, he's got 5 dead king's soldiers that he needs to explain. If he says "I don't remember" what the killer(s) looked like, he'll be lucky just to get a sharp backhander to the head.

In any case, I would have thought there already was a bounty on the Hound for deserting the Kingsguard and abandoning his king (only Jaime is allowed to do that).

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In any case, I would have thought there already was a bounty on the Hound for deserting the Kingsguard and abandoning his king (only Jaime is allowed to do that).

 

And insulting the King. So there probably is. The Hound is no ordinary man, they'd be wise not to let him roam the realm and do as he pleases. Except that's what he's been doing so far. But hey, he's the Hound, maybe no one wants money that much.

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