S06.E12: America First

[Mabel]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

I couldn't agree more. 

Asking why Quinn couldn't have a happy life with Carrie, is like asking why Oedipus had to blind his eyes, why didn't Anna Karenina and Vronski live happily ever after.

According to Aristotle, a tragedy is caused by hamartia, when the otherwise virtuous hero makes an error of judgment out of ignorance. As the audience feels horror and pity, they experience katharsis or purification. In Shakespeare's tragedies, heroes are no more virtuous. According to Hegel, tragedy is caused when the hero must chose between two values that are equally worthy. 

I think that the finale of S6 is most according Aristotle just because Saul and Carrie trust and help Keane and Quinn sacrifices himself to save Keane who then changes mentally and betrays Saul and Carrie. And even Dar fits in as he has been duped which causes that Quinn whom he loves in his own way dies.

Before all, this season asked the basic questions: has the general policy been wrong? is there no end to the secret war?    

The criticism for most part is not about the death per se but about the way it was handled  - gratuitously. Quinn's death and the whole episode could have been cathartic, but they were not - because of haphazard and all-over-the-place writing for most of the season. Probably because the writers are nowhere near Tolstoy. Or Shakespeare. 

[Milburn Stone]

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

According to Aristotle, a tragedy is caused by hamartia, when the otherwise virtuous hero makes an error of judgment out of ignorance. As the audience feels horror and pity, they experience katharsis or purification. In Shakespeare's tragedies, heroes are no more virtuous. According to Hegel, tragedy is caused when the hero must chose between two values that are equally worthy. 

I think that the finale of S6 is most according Aristotle just because Saul and Carrie trust and help Keane and Quinn sacrifices himself to save Keane who then changes mentally and betrays Saul and Carrie. And even Dar fits in as he has been duped which causes that Quinn whom he loves in his own way dies.

Roseanna, I like your post, and would just add that in my view, the tragic flaw that drove Quinn's story was his inability to trust and connect. Just as much as Carrie is "to blame" for never telling Quinn she loved him, Quinn brought his own baked-in flaw to the table by never being able to believe that anybody could love him. Which was beyond Carrie's or anybody else's control to change.

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Roseanna, I like your post, and would just add that in my view, the tragic flaw that drove Quinn's story was his inability to trust and connect. Just as much as Carrie is "to blame" for never telling Quinn she loved him, Quinn brought his own baked-in flaw to the table by never being able to believe that anybody could love him. Which was beyond Carrie's or anybody else's control to change.

I see your POV and respect it.

To me, however, what you see Quinn's "flaw" shows his greatest strenght: an ability to love in a completely disinterested way. He completely lacked jealousy included often in romantic love and thought only what was the best to Carrie when he refused to shoot Brody. He sincerely admired her abilities but wasn't blind to her moods and faults and thus saved Saul in S4. He had the rarest ability to give waiting nothing for return (well, he hoped one moment in S4). One could even say that he was her guardian angel.   

Generally, in fiction love stories stop at the highest point: either one lover or both die, or with "happy end" (which has rarely been used by serious writers after 19th century). That way, love stays ideal for ever.       

[Roseanna]

12 hours ago, John Potts said:

(I'll preface this by admitting my own biases: a I've said before, I'm a bleeding heart liberal, so bear that in mind):

There is obviously a debate to be had on how far liberty and privacy should be balanced against security. But the American people chose O'Keefe as their President to reform the CIA ("Once she gets in, this place is going to be gutted" - Saul Berenson): NOBODY elected Dar Adal, O'Keefe or the General who attempted the coup. Is she going too far? Probably. But at least Presidents can be removed from office (either by Impeachment or at the next election). Democracies generally perform better than dictatorships, not because the people choose better leaders (though frequently, they do) but because bad Presidents/Prime Ministers get voted out: it's a lot harder (and generally bloodier) to remove a bad dictator.

I see your point and must reconsider a bit.

Maybe Carrie is a little naive by insisting (of others than Saul) that "I know them and they are inocent" - wait, she didn't say that but that they have loved their country for decades. But Samuel Johnson said that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. No doubt Dar, General, Senator and Mr Radio Host regard themselves as patriots.

[CharethCutestory]

I agree with those here that say it wasn't that Quinn died, it was how he was treated up until that point that's so terrible, particularly his arc in S5 . The character (and Rupert) deserved much better. I know the new season is around the corner and every other year I was eager to watch it every week. This time around that's completely gone. Aided by the fact that last season overall was a haphazard mess. Maybe I'll try binging it when it's done. Quinn became the heart of the show, he filled the void Brody left and there will probably be many that disagree but in a lot of ways I felt the show was better with him as the male lead. Or at least the transition to the new angle and feel was just as great. Quinn was a tragic character start to finish. Learning this past season that his whole life was full of pain, abandonment, and disappointment is heartbreaking. 

I don't know if it was mentioned already but Quinn's final scene when he starts bleeding from the mouth mirrors what happens to him when Carrie wakes him up and he has the stroke, which is what arguably caused Quinn the most damage. That moment in season 5 was when Quinn really "died." We see him miserable living as a shell of what he was due to that decision. 

Edited December 24, 2017 by CharethCutestory

[grommit2]

Here's some questions about several season 5 story lines:
1) a shadowy group was flooding the internet with fake news attacks.
2) the newly elected president wants to gut the CIA.
These story lines were hatched BEFORE they actually happened in real life.

So, how did the writers know this in advance?
 

[paramitch]

Hmmmm. I was satisfied with the finale (I was certain poor darling Quinn was toast, and hated to be right). But I do think it was clunky and only partially successful. But I was incredibly moved by Quinn's actions and had been so terrified that he'd be falsely planted as an assassin, that I was weirdly thrilled that he was able to openly save the PEOTUS and Carrie, and give his life for that. It's who he is and what he trained for. I'll miss him incredibly on the show though -- Rupert Friend was just extraordinary this season. I'm still angry he wasn't nominated or further honored. His ability to capture the physicality of TBI and PTSD were seriously amazing here.

On 4/9/2017 at 7:19 PM, JocelynCavanaugh said:

I know it's not a common opinion these days, but I'm still rooting for Carrie. I just wish they hadn't saddled her with a child. It's been such a drag this season. Dear TV writers: a woman of childbearing age does not actually need to HAVE a child to be a well-rounded or compelling character. Give it a try sometime. 

This. Although -- I didn't hate this. I was so thrilled when they sent the child away the last season or two, but this season actually worked for me. I still wish Carrie had never had the baby at all, but this wasn't as bad as I would've feared. But I agree with everything you posted, and still support any shows where the woman (thankfully) chooses not to have a child at all, and it's a positive choice and the best thing she could have done.

I'm not judging those who DO, mind you. I just think we need continuous, current and positive examples of those who DON'T.

On 4/10/2017 at 2:31 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

That brief clip of Quinn from S1 or S2 telling Carrie about his son was so jarring. I mean, he wasn't laughing hysterically but he looked so much less emotionally tortured than he has been for the last two seasons. As much as I will miss Quinn's badassedness, that is a guy who deserves to finally rest in peace. And at least he died a hero, not framed for the assassination of the President-Elect. Honestly, I just assumed that he would die anonymously (like in the dumpster in Berlin) so this was an upgrade.

This. I was actually horribly, oddly relieved at Quinn's death. He was the kind of person who wouldn't have been able to find peace. He just couldn't let go, couldn't relax, couldn't find another life. His entire life was his work. The irony is, I think he would've been a good analyst, but I think he would have found it frustrating and upsetting not to be able to act. (sigh) I loved Quinn and will miss him. But I was okay with this here.

On 4/10/2017 at 3:58 AM, RedFiat said:

... but this was incredibly well done by Rupert Friend, and I really felt for him in the end and when Carrie happened to be one of the pictures he kept inside Great Expectations.  The fans wanted to see how a broken man could return, and for him to regain a lot of his insight and instinct was a great gift.  

I liked that as well. I was so worried and upset at the first few episodes here but Quinn ended on an incredibly high note. He did what he was trained to do, and he was superb, injuries or no.

On 4/10/2017 at 7:42 AM, attica said:

I was most worried when Saul was in the visiting room with Dar. Don't give him a writing implement, Saul!!! Haven't you learned your lesson about giving people sharpened pointed things in interview rooms?! Argh!

THIS! I swear to God, I thought the same thing. I was absolutely on the edge of my seat there.

On 4/10/2017 at 8:45 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Seeing Max and Carrie crying on the sofa was so sad. They were two of the few people who knew Quinn. Very few people knew he existed, let alone knew him as a person. They may be the only two people in the world who mourned for the real Quinn, the flawed human being, not the man who saved PEOTUS. 

Me too. Beautifully put -- it definitely made me a little weepy for one of my absolute favorite people on this show.

On 4/15/2017 at 8:18 AM, Milburn Stone said:

I'm surprised to read some of the virulent reactions here to Quinn's death. ("Goodbye, show," etc.) His life and death were the stuff tragedy is made of, and tragedy is a form as old as drama itself. Pulling off a strongly moving tragedy makes me admire a show, not despise it.

I felt the same way. I was glad they let Quinn go, especially because they let him die as a hero, doing what he was best at. I couldn't have borne another season of watching that man suffer. I'm just sayin'. And while I think he loved Carrie, I didn't get the same sense from her. She loved him, yes, but it was complex and not as generous and absolute as his (and I say this as someone who loves Carrie). She couldn't keep Quinn in her life with a baby, either -- not with everything he'd done, TBI and unexpected violence. It was never going to work.

On 4/19/2017 at 7:21 AM, Pallas said:

This isn't a show that's kind to romance or its consequences. If you are Carrie or Saul, there is no refuge in your homeland. Parents leave, go mad or both: it is worse if they never come back, or if they return. You will betray the love of your life, and feel that even more than his or her betrayal. Your lying colleagues are your family, and none of them has a spouse anymore, or ever had a child at home. 

For the sake of your homeland -- not yours, but what you imagine must be your neighbors' -- you are living, killing, comforting the dying to advance a foreign policy as fucked-up as Brody and Quinn. As fucked-up but in no way as beloved as the men who survived it, the men who were its front-line casualties. No love interest remains, only the "national interest." Maybe it must be the love of your life. Or your life, anyway, and never mind the rest. 

This is one of the most beautiful and eloquent things I think anyone has ever posted about this show -- thank you. And I think you're right. There is nothing for any of these people that goes beyond country. And that's their heroism, their great strength, their flaw, and their tragedy.

On 4/30/2017 at 3:51 PM, Roseanna said:

That would have been a melodrama. It was much more impressing that Carrie cried only after six months.  

Beautifully put -- just a minor note that it was six weeks, not six months, after the funeral. Which I wish we'd seen. 

On 5/1/2017 at 8:25 AM, Milburn Stone said:

Roseanna, I like your post, and would just add that in my view, the tragic flaw that drove Quinn's story was his inability to trust and connect. Just as much as Carrie is "to blame" for never telling Quinn she loved him, Quinn brought his own baked-in flaw to the table by never being able to believe that anybody could love him. Which was beyond Carrie's or anybody else's control to change.

This is so insightfuli and I think, very true of Quinn. Quinn is so certain of his own abyss that even this season he has repeatedly reinforced only his worst fears and assumptions about himself, even in the face of the absolute love and comfort of both Carrie and later (even more heartbreakingly) Astrid. He had already listened to the inner despair and especially after his injury, he felt he was beyond saving. He was wrong, but he was magnificent in his generosity, courage, and unflinching duty.

But I still wish we could've seen the memorial to him. I wanted a chance to feel for him, to cry for him, to see the others moved for a person they'd known and shed blood with for FIVE YEARS. I still think it was the wrong dramatic choice, not to show us that. I think they even could have shown Carrie make the hard choice not to speak (and wanting to, desperately, to honor him) because she knew he didn't want her to. 

Last but not least: The final few minutes with Keane were crazy, but I kind of liked it. I did feel that her constant wishy-washy fickleness had to translate into a weakness in the end, and I just never quite liked her (and I love the actress). She was so easy to influence, and it drove me crazy! So I liked the way it translated rather unexpectedly into a terror that became isolationism and corruption and power. It made total sense from her experiences this season and yet will make her a great villain to follow. And I adored that final shot of Carrie looking at the Capitol -- kudos for the way it totally echoed Brody's long-ago and thrillingly scary similar moment.

Edited May 6, 2018 by paramitch
Forgot something

[jjj]

It was chilling to watch Season 6 for the first time in June 2018 -- when now we know *so much* of what was surmised when this was written (before the 2016 election, a thousand years ago, it seems), about the subversive bots and campaign to use social media to manipulate public opinion.   I guess we will never know why Dal let Max go, but I am glad the writers showed us that he did emerge from that dark place.  I thought he would have been left tied to a plumbing pipe and discovered weeks later.  Looking forward to bingeing Season 7, but maybe will give it all a rest for a while.  

One loose end I kept expecting to pop up again was the housekeeper at the rural location where they "kidnapped" the PEOTUS.  On the ride back in the pickup truck, Keane kept saying, I *know* I've seen you before; I'm very good with faces.  I really expected that she would turn out to be someone masterminding some aspect of all the dark ops.  

Thanks for the threads and comments, everyone -- I read each thread before going to the next episode.  

On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 8:18 AM, Milburn Stone said:

Keane's purges reminded me of something even more than they reminded me of Hitler and Stalin. Sinclair Lewis' 1935 novel It Can't Happen Here. I fully realize that Lewis modeled his American story on the current events in Germany and Russia, but there was a flavor to the way it went down in this episode that was strongly redolent of Lewis' novel. I bet the writers read it.

I'm surprised to read some of the virulent reactions here to Quinn's death. ("Goodbye, show," etc.) His life and death were the stuff tragedy is made of, and tragedy is a form as old as drama itself. Pulling off a strongly moving tragedy makes me admire a show, not despise it.

[Roseanna]

On ‎10‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 8:54 PM, Jaundiced Eye said:

Okay. I know that a lot of people believed Quinn should have been killed off last season. I understand why people feel that way, but I am selfishly clinging to whatever slim hope exists that Quinn survived yet again. We saw him take a couple of bullets, we saw blood coming from his mouth, and we heard Carrie pronounce him dead. But we didn't see a body -- we only heard about a memorial taking place. Because I value Quinn higher than the rest of the cast combined, I am not going to give up hope until it is obvious that none exists.

Quinn told Carrie that what she had seem doing, i.e. not only killing a man but hitting his face to mess, was what he was. He wasn't only a professional assassin, he was full of rage that he couldn't contol.

There was no way to him but die but luckily, he died in line of duty, saving lives and fighting people who had taken to themselves the right to oppose the elections and rule in secret. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎11‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 9:44 AM, Mabel said:

3. McClendon also has a back up plan - two deltas (with a hit order on PE, apparently?). When McClendon hears that PE is still alive he sends them in. what kind of spec ops guys are those? isn't ultimately PE their commander-in-chief in a way? how can they kill her in cold blood - (she is not some dictator in a third-world country)? or they know they are going completely black here? how exactly were they going to pin it all on Quinn as it was not even certain he would show up at the scene (his walking into the garage and being caught on camera was a little too convenient)? 

They weren't "ordinary soldiers" but, like Quinn, assassins who had made similar things in other countries. I guess that even before their loyalty was mostly to McClendon and while they had been trained in the house Quinn knew, it was easy for him to brainwash them that the PEOTUS was a traitor and thus to become members of conspiracy. 

I agree that the plan about Quinn a scapecoat wouldn't have worked for long. Even the simple timeline would proved that a single man couldn't have succeeded to do all he was supposed to do. And as McClendon had responsibility to protect the PEOTUS, his "errors of judgment" would first have put his career in ruins and then raised suspicious of more sinister motives. It's quite impossible that there wouldn't have born theories of conspiracy. And as too many people knew the truth, there would be mysterious deaths.        

[Roseanna]

On ‎10‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 3:52 PM, SimoneS said:

The only thing that rang false for me about the last two episodes were the large vocal protests against Keane. It is impossible that hundreds of conservative protesters could have such a large presence in NYC without hundreds of thousands of counter protesters coming in and overwhelming them.

That's true. As Keane was elected, so she tens of millions had voted for her. Perhaps not many weren't passionate about her as she is  a rather cold and un-charismatic person, but still it's not possible that some thousands wouldn't have gone to the street to protest for her.   

 

On ‎10‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 6:37 PM, Ottis said:

I thought it was the opposite? Didn't Max say something to Carrie, while drunk, about "... they're making him out to be some kind of action hero or shit..." If I heard that right, I took that to mean that Max *didn't* like Peter. 

 

On ‎10‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 6:45 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I took Max's superhero comment to mean that he knew as well as Carrie did that Quinn did not want to be made into a hero or public figure (which is in line with his request to Carrie not to put a star up for him). 

Seeing Max and Carrie crying on the sofa was so sad. They were two of the few people who knew Quinn. Very few people knew he existed, let alone knew him as a person. They may be the only two people in the world who mourned for the real Quinn, the flawed human being, not the man who saved PEOTUS. 

I agree with Electricboogaloo that Max' remark showed that he really liked Quinn and respected his wish.

Even generally, when somebody is honored as a hero in public (and not only calling his deed as heroic) that means that many of his characteristics must be left out because they are unfit to a hero as the public sees it. In Quinn's case almost his whole life (his career as a prostitute and assassin) would have to cencored in order to get a hero fit for the media. 

On ‎13‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 3:07 AM, venezia54 said:

I could think of many ways that Quinn could have had  an empowering, interesting story about PTSD and recovery--a positive story for vets. 

Considering damages Quinn got in S5, it was plausible that he would be a vegetable for ever. The show chose a "miracle" but retained a minimum of realism by letting him suffer from constant pains. Irl the most plausible solution would have been suicide. 

[misstwpherecool]

On 4/9/2017 at 10:25 PM, nara said:

Saul was in the first car and it was the second one with the African American young man who was COS that was blown up. 

Was there a decoy car? I thought a person who looked the pe got in one.

[Rus-L]

On 7/5/2018 at 4:15 PM, misstwpherecool said:

Was there a decoy car? I thought a person who looked the pe got in one.

Yes.  She got into the second car with the COS.  The second car took the brunt of the blast.