S05.E04: What's the Matter with Kansas?

[formergr]

On 3/30/2017 at 0:12 PM, Ina123 said:

Isn't it possible that Henry is more computer savvy than the family realizes? Maybe all that "on the phone all the time" is because he has installed a modem and is visiting newsgroups. This family is so out of touch with him that he could get by with it. I had Netscape then and was on newsgroups all the time. 

Netscape wasn't founded until 1994, and the first browser released in October of that year, so not sure how you were able to use it in 1984 (present day for this episode)?

[Pike Ludwell]

I started binge watching this show 10 days ago and am up to this episode. I am hoping like crazy that these two a-h's get punished soon. I'm surprised I am watching another show where I hate the main characters, but the story and writing is excellent, and keeps me interested. Paige ranks up there with as among the worst of main-characters'-children in any TV show. She's giving Walt, Jr. from Breaking Bad, and that daughter in the 1st couple seasons of Homeland a run for their money. The writers/director make it almost seem she is mentally challenged, but I guess writers like to emphasize kids differences from their parents for the contrast effect.

I can't believe these people are able to seduce virtually anyone they want. It's amazing how easily manipulable their victims are. I'd like to see just one show some astuteness and not cave to the manipulation. But the two of them win every time.  I badly want to see someone outsmart them or resist them. The whole thing is preposterous.

Edited June 19, 2017 by riverclown

[SWLinPHX]

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Paige ranks up there with as among the worst of main-characters'-children in any TV show.  The writers/director make it almost seem she is mentally challenged, but I guess writers like to emphasize kids differences from their parents for the contrast effect.

 

I don't know.  Many say that but as a naive teenager who has no one to count on but her parents what else is she supposed to do, turn them in?  She only knows what they told her, not about the shitty things they've done.

 

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I can't believe these people are able to seduce virtually anyone they want.

A little over-the-top, but each situation is about making friends (not hard if you are friendly) or sex (not hard if you are hot) or romance (not hard when the ones they chose are desperate or unappealing -- and Philip and Elizabeth are very attractive).

[Roseanna]

On ‎29‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 10:28 PM, SWLinPHX said:

...and yet they would have Oleg believe it was Stan who betrayed him and set him up for the impossible situation he is in now.  That will really piss me off if Oleg doesn't realize that Stan was sincere and is sacrificing a lot for him still, even now.

Why on earth would Oleg know whether Stan is sincere or not? Oleg isn't a mind-reader and from his POV all evidence points that Stan's friendliness towards him was only because of his job as a spy-catcher.

And actually, it's just because Stan told his superiors that his source was Oleg that Oleg is in trouble now.     

 

On ‎30‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 1:42 AM, Paloma said:

What convinced me that Stan's girlfriend is some kind of spy was how she went on about Pittsburgh after hearing that's where Phillip was from. It felt like she was trying to trip him up in a "do you know this person or place" way. But maybe I'm just paranoid because she is Laurie Holden.

Yes, it's the oldest trick in the book: say something about a place and a person that is false and when the other says "yeah, I know", you know that he has never lived there or known persons at all. But was that she said false?)

On the other hand, it's also quite normal thing to do when meeting new people: "Oh, you are from X? I visited it a few years ago and liked especially..." 

[Roseanna]

On ‎29‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 3:27 PM, Chaos Theory said:

I think Oleg's mom handled it well and handled it like anyone who knows way to much loss and doesn't want to lose the one good thing she has left would.  "Do what yo have to.  Don't worry about me."  

I agree that Oleg' mom meant "Do what you have to do". But she couldn't mean "Don't worry about me" because if Oleg is condemned for treason, his parents would suffer also. So it's rather "save yourself and us".

It was quite a surprise as Oleg's mom is so far shown only as an ordinary middle-age women suffering from the death of Oleg's brother and longing for Oleg.

Generally, I think this scene is an antithersis to Elizabeth's tendency to put ideology first. You can also value youself and your family too much and after " you have done what you had to do", you may be physically alive but morally dead. Nina decided it was not enough. But unlike her, Oleg has a family.

This scene changed my estimation about Oleg's age. He can't be so young he seems to be. Considering he was two when his mom was imprisoned and she spent five years in the camp, he is born in the later part of 40ies which makes him only a few years younger than P & E. 

Thinking anew, his mom's story doesn't sound unlikely. It's true that Stalin sent wives of his top aides to Gulag, but Oleg's father was too young to have such a position.   

On ‎29‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 7:36 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

When Stan was listening to his partner talk about the dirt the FBI held over this one guy he knew to get him to turn, Stan seemed in deep thought. Was Stan thinking of that possibly happening to Oleg OR HIMSELF? 

Aderholt's story showed that the FBI used the same tactics as KGB with Anton and the gay soldier who taught contras. Only, as we know it ended badly with both whereas Adelholt claimed that it ended well: the whole family is now happy living in the US. But we know that Pascaha and his mother aren't. 

I think I must change my opinion about Aderholt. So far I have seen him comperent, objective and dispassionate in his job. After he tried to convince Stan: "you don't have to have qualms if we use dirty tricks", it seems to me that despite his gentle exterior he is really the hard quy who would do anything whereas Stan has a conscience.

[SunnyBeBe]

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I agree that Oleg' mom meant "Do what you have to do". But she couldn't mean "Don't worry about me" because if Oleg is condemned for treason, his parents would suffer also. So it's rather "save yourself and us".

It was quite a surprise as Oleg's mom is so far shown only as an ordinary middle-age women suffering from the death of Oleg's brother and longing for Oleg.

Generally, I think this scene is an antithersis to Elizabeth's tendency to put ideology first. You can also value youself and your family too much and after " you have done what you had to do", you may be physically alive but morally dead. Nina decided it was not enough. But unlike her, Oleg has a family.

This scene changed my estimation about Oleg's age. He can't be so young he seems to be. Considering he was two when his mom was imprisoned and she spent five years in the camp, he is born in the later part of 40ies which makes him only a few years younger than P & E. 

Thinking anew, his mom's story doesn't sound unlikely. It's true that Stalin sent wives of his top aides to Gulag, but Oleg's father was too young to have such a position.   

Aderholt's story showed that the FBI used the same tactics as KGB with Anton and the gay soldier who taught contras. Only, as we know it ended badly with both whereas Adelholt claimed that it ended well: the whole family is now happy living in the US. But we know that Pascaha and his mother aren't. 

I think I must change my opinion about Aderholt. So far I have seen him comperent, objective and dispassionate in his job. After he tried to convince Stan: "you don't have to have qualms if we use dirty tricks", it seems to me that despite his gentle exterior he is really the hard quy who would do anything whereas Stan has a conscience.

I do see what you mean, but, Stan has done some bizarre stuff too, like killing a guy outright, who was innocent, though, Stan though otherwise.  He also got Nina killed, but, that was partly her fault too.  

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Why on earth would Oleg know whether Stan is sincere or not? Oleg isn't a mind-reader and from his POV all evidence points that Stan's friendliness towards him was only because of his job as a spy-catcher.

 

And does it even really matter? When Oleg gave the information to Stan I don't think he did it because he thought Stan would never use it beyond that. Oleg himself might do something like that if Stan gave him information that could later be used for his country. I think both would know it wasn't necessarily personal and that there are powers beyond them that might force the issue. Oleg knows that in order to use the information Oleg gave him he would have to tell other people at the FBI who would have no personal loyalty to Oleg.

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Yes, it's the oldest trick in the book: say something about a place and a person that is false and when the other says "yeah, I know", you know that he has never lived there or known persons at all. But was that she said false?)

 

I doubt it. Philip would have researched the place really well so he wouldn't be having to improvise and know less than somebody who only occasionally visited the place growing up. I would guess he and Elizabeth probably spent their first months or a year in the US familiarizing themselves with the details of their legends--at that time they had no other US IDs.

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

This scene changed my estimation about Oleg's age. He can't be so young he seems to be. Considering he was two when his mom was imprisoned and she spent five years in the camp, he is born in the later part of 40ies which makes him only a few years younger than P & E. 

 

That works for me. He's in his mid-late 30s. They're early 40s. Is there a way Oleg's father could get into trouble without being that important yet? Important enough that he himself wouldn't just be sent away maybe?

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Generally, I think this scene is an antithersis to Elizabeth's tendency to put ideology first. You can also value youself and your family too much and after " you have done what you had to do", you may be physically alive but morally dead. Nina decided it was not enough. But unlike her, Oleg has a family.

 

I like the extra point that his father seems to have stayed with the mother despite her no longer being the person (young, happy girl) that she was when he left. That's a complicated relationship and it doesn't just seem to be a case of the father feeling like he's tied to a dead weight out of guilt.

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I think I must change my opinion about Aderholt. So far I have seen him comperent, objective and dispassionate in his job. After he tried to convince Stan: "you don't have to have qualms if we use dirty tricks", it seems to me that despite his gentle exterior he is really the hard quy who would do anything whereas Stan has a conscience.

I think at this point it's probably more that Aderholt hasn't gotten himself personally involved the way Stan has. Stan seems to have trouble with relationships since his undercover work--most of his intense relationships since then have been with spies (although he doesn't know it with Philip). Stan was happy to send Vasily to Siberia or to his own execution in order to protect Nina. He killed Vlad. 

[Roseanna]

57 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I doubt it. Philip would have researched the place really well so he wouldn't be having to improvise and know less than somebody who only occasionally visited the place growing up. I would guess he and Elizabeth probably spent their first months or a year in the US familiarizing themselves with the details of their legends--at that time they had no other US IDs.

I know P & E made their homework, but there are thousands of small things they were unable to check afterwards. F.ex. a shop or cafe was in the place in 1966 but not in 1953.

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I think at this point it's probably more that Aderholt hasn't gotten himself personally involved the way Stan has. Stan seems to have trouble with relationships since his undercover work--most of his intense relationships since then have been with spies (although he doesn't know it with Philip). Stan was happy to send Vasily to Siberia or to his own execution in order to protect Nina. He killed Vlad. 

That's true, Aderholt hasn't gotten personally involved and because he is objective, he is better in his work. But that makes him less appealing as a human being whereas I am going to like Stan.

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

I know P & E made their homework, but there are thousands of small things they were unable to check afterwards. F.ex. a shop or cafe was in the place in 1966 but not in 1953.

True, but specifics like that might just as easily be forgotten by someone who hasn't been there in years. It's more likely if you're going to send up a red flag it would be about something subtler but also bigger, since people have been known to totally remember things that never happened. I remember a memoir where this guy had this whole story where talked about playing with this Star Wars toys during the bicentennial and he probably really did believe it, but Star Wars didn't even come out until a year later. (You'd think an editor would have caught something that obvious.) 

For instance, I actually recently met somebody who obviously was always stretching the truth. She liked telling people she was from (among other places) the same city where I live and she threw out three things that were obviously off, but I would bet Philip wouldn't even try anything like that. Iirc, he lets her throw out a detail and just nodded, which would be as much about politeness and disinterest as not knowing details. That way he avoids a real trap like referring to something in the wrong way. 

Btw, the woman I met not only was faking being from a city, but when I asked where she lived she said she was then living in a smaller town outside the city...which happened to be where I grew up and she got basics of that wrong as well. It was kind of hilarious. Especially since it turned out another person at the table, who was from a completely different country, was currently living part-time in that same town. 

[Roseanna]

I thought first that by saying that you do what you have to do Oleg mother meant that she had been an informer. But there is also another possibility: she could have been a mistress of a high-ranking guard.

In addition, she was in the camp in the 50ies when the circumstances weren't as bad as during the war or in 1937-8. 

Edited September 6, 2017 by Roseanna

[Roseanna]

12 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Is there a way Oleg's father could get into trouble without being that important yet? Important enough that he himself wouldn't just be sent away maybe?

I know only of cases where Stalin sent wives and other family members of his top assistants or foreign Communists to the camp whereas the men continue to serve him. Maybe Russians know other cases?

The only other explanation I can invent is that as Oleg's mother and other wives had been imprisoned in the early 50ies (if she was released in 1955-6), they could be Jews.