S12.E17: In The Dark

[R3volver]

I think maybe I saw a different version of the last episode because I've seen people talking about Fiona's talk with Reid being suspicious(which I saw in promo pics), but I don't recall seeing that scene. I guess I'll have to find the episode and rewatch.

[Danielg342]

I believe they were on the phone...I don't know, I only half paid attention to that scene.

[JMO]

I didn't think there was anything suspicious about it.  I just call her fast-talking because she is.  I'm from NY, and even I think she speaks too fast!

[ReidFan]

I think she's been a rotten lawyer so far personally. The gen pop thing, the moving the trial UP when they have no evidence, no retry for bail. Just ugh.

[Hotchgirl18]

What do you wanna bet that Fiona is in on this "nefarious plot," whatever it is.

[Drogo]

I doubt that.  Fiona is Prentiss' old friend, one Emily only reached out to because the federal government refused to provide legal assistance for Reid.  She's not a character who snuck into or was planted in Reid's life.

Realistically, Reid should have taken the 2-5 year plea deal that Fiona worked out originally.

[ReidFan]

realistically, they should've resolved this in the episode following his arrest; captured/killed Scratch, exonerated Reid.

While I'm *loving* the extraordinary performances Matthew Gray Gubler is turning in, I really hate that Reid continues to be isolated from the team and the work he *should* be doing.

[Hotchgirl18]

Realistically Fiona just needs to be a better attorney. I could get Cola (my dog) to do a better job of defending Reid and catching Mr. Scratch. She would herd that guy til kingdom come! 

[Drogo]

Murder cases typically take six months to a year to go to trial, so I believe resolving it in the next episode would be decidedly unrealistic.

[ReidFan]

Oh, I didn't mean for this to even *go* to trial. Nope. The team should have uncovered the real killer within the next two episodes, max. I'm not fond of this being dragged out so long.

[Drogo]

From legal and logical standpoints, Reid is more than likely the Real Killer. 

He left the country without ID'ing himself as a federal agent, purchased unapproved drugs from a woman murdered while she was with him, wounds consistent with handling the murder weapon, evaded Mexican law enforcement at high speeds while high off of his face and in possession of mucho drugs, etc.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

The only thing 'unrealistic' or 'stupid' about this whole arc is how the team is written.  I'm sure the writers think this plays out with so much more resonance and intrigue than it really does, but all I am getting from the BAU team depictions during all this is;

"Maybe we should be doing more - much more - to find Scratch and catch him to get Reid out of this whole mess."
".....Nah.  We'll just keep hoping and praying that things will work out alright in the end."

[Hotchgirl18]

25 minutes ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

The only thing 'unrealistic' or 'stupid' about this whole arc is how the team is written.  I'm sure the writers think this plays out with so much more resonance and intrigue than it really does, but all I am getting from the BAU team depictions during all this is;

"Maybe we should be doing more - much more - to find Scratch and catch him to get Reid out of this whole mess."
".....Nah.  We'll just keep hoping and praying that things will work out alright in the end."

Well, I go to church and James 2:17 says faith without works is dead. 

Aww. Crap. They're gonna have to actually do something. They should want to get his name cleared as soon as possible. 

[Danielg342]

1 hour ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

The only thing 'unrealistic' or 'stupid' about this whole arc is how the team is written.  I'm sure the writers think this plays out with so much more resonance and intrigue than it really does, but all I am getting from the BAU team depictions during all this is;

"Maybe we should be doing more - much more - to find Scratch and catch him to get Reid out of this whole mess."
".....Nah.  We'll just keep hoping and praying that things will work out alright in the end."

I agree the team is written to be pretty stupid. They dropped everything to find Garcia's shooter, to help Reid with Hankel, to rescue Prentiss, to rescue Calahan's kids, to rescue JJ, to deal with Doyle...the list goes on.

Yet, this time...inexplicably...they don't lift a finger for Reid.

It would have been so easy for the show to have Mateo Cruz (remember him?) come in and tell Prentiss, "unless you find evidence that connects Reid to Scratch, you're not investigating" or even a line where Prentiss says that's Cruz's order to her...then at least the team can argue their hands are tied.

I do think this arc lacks a focus. If we aren't going to see the team investigate Reid's case then we should at least get a sense of the point of showing Reid's escapades. Is Reid's prison experiences supposed to lead him to a point where he loses belief in the justice system or humanity or his own teammates? Is Reid going to gain new insights on just how depraved people can actually be, now that he's been a part of that? Is prison supposed to show him the futility of the human experience, or at least show him that humanity truly can't be saved? Does prison become an indicator that he's sacrificed too much in his life and received so little back that he now needs to re-evaluate his future?

There's just so many angles but the writers are whiffing on all of them. They seem to think that showing Reid being a punching bag multiple times is "drama" when it truly isn't. It's exploitation, pure and simple. Stick JJ, Prentiss, Garcia or Tara in those scenes and the Internet would be howling about how the show is "mistreating women", so the writers should not get a pass for doing it to Reid just because he's a guy. It's sickening, really.

Worse is that this whole arc seems to be more about Calvin than Reid. All Reid is doing is getting beaten up and brooding, but Luke's scene with Calvin gave him some character depth and even suggested that Calvin is running the prison to make up for his own insecurities. We've learned more about Calvin Shaw over these past three episodes than we have about Reid, and this arc is supposed to be Reid's, not Calvin's.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Even worse - IMO - it took the (nearly) newest guy to go in there and blackmail Shaw into protecting Reid.  Alvez.  Not Prentiss, not Rossi, not JJ, not Morgan back for a guest appearance.  Alvez.

The incompetence these writers are piling on the 'veteran' part of the BAU squad is just purely mind-boggling.  At least Prentiss is shown to be trying to help and allowed to be (consistently) concerned about Reid... something tells me that's more about the writers trying to highlight her 'boss' position more than anythng else, in actuality.  But everyone else?  A 'cameo' nod to Reid's arc every other episode (if not less). 

[Danielg342]

1 hour ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

Even worse - IMO - it took the (nearly) newest guy to go in there and blackmail Shaw into protecting Reid.  Alvez.  Not Prentiss, not Rossi, not JJ, not Morgan back for a guest appearance.  Alvez.

The incompetence these writers are piling on the 'veteran' part of the BAU squad is just purely mind-boggling.  At least Prentiss is shown to be trying to help and allowed to be (consistently) concerned about Reid... something tells me that's more about the writers trying to highlight her 'boss' position more than anythng else, in actuality.  But everyone else?  A 'cameo' nod to Reid's arc every other episode (if not less). 

That is worse. The cynic in me thinks they're doing that so that Reid's fans are going to start liking Alvez. Haven't seen any evidence of that (to say little about the blatant manipulation tactic).

I would give Prentiss credit for showing concern for Reid if this arc- heck, this entire season- didn't assassinate any credibility she had as Unit Chief. Right now, the decision to tackle other cases while Reid rots in jail is hers and hers alone, and the fact that she's basically let Scratch pick off her team members at will without response calls into question her decisiveness and fortitude.

Small wonder Hotch fans are howling in disgust. There's no way Hotch would have allowed any of this to happen.

Which makes this even worse, because the Prentiss I knew- the S2-S6 Prentiss, the one that Interpol thought so highly of they recruited her to lead their London office- would also not act like the show is making her act right now. That Prentiss would likely do what Hotch did, and maybe even go further- Hotch did worry about what his superiors thought, Prentiss never did seem to give a hoot, so she wouldn't care about "the system"- she'd do everything she could to subvert it.

By Jove, she was a spy who profiled terrorists- do you think she gives one whit about what governments think?

Yet I can see it now- come the season finale, the team will finally get down to solving Reid's case, solving it in an hour and rendering this whole trial and tribulation moot. Afterwards, Prentiss will be praised about how great of a leader she is for taking down Scratch and Reid will likely make some hackneyed speech about how he "never gave up hope and knew his friends would come through for him"...even when we've clearly seen for months that neither are remotely true. 

[ReidGirl]

2 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

Worse is that this whole arc seems to be more about Calvin than Reid. All Reid is doing is getting beaten up and brooding, but Luke's scene with Calvin gave him some character depth and even suggested that Calvin is running the prison to make up for his own insecurities. We've learned more about Calvin Shaw over these past three episodes than we have about Reid, and this arc is supposed to be Reid's, not Calvin's.

This so much this... As you said there is no character development for Reid at all. All I get to see is mire Shaw and more Alvez.

45 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

That is worse. The cynic in me thinks they're doing that so that Reid's fans are going to start liking Alvez. Haven't seen any evidence of that (to say little about the blatant manipulation tactic).

Small wonder Hotch fans are howling in disgust. There's no way Hotch would have allowed any of this to happen.

Yes I think they are pushing Alvez down our throat in case MGG decides to leave they will have someone the fans will hold on to.

yes I feel sorry for Hotch fans. Prentiss cannot feel Hotch's shoes.

[ReidGirl]

2 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

Even worse - IMO - it took the (nearly) newest guy to go in there and blackmail Shaw into protecting Reid.  Alvez.  Not Prentiss, not Rossi, not JJ, not Morgan back for a guest appearance.  Alvez.

The incompetence these writers are piling on the 'veteran' part of the BAU squad is just purely mind-boggling.  At least Prentiss is shown to be trying to help and allowed to be (consistently) concerned about Reid... something tells me that's more about the writers trying to highlight her 'boss' position more than anythng else, in actuality.  But everyone else?  A 'cameo' nod to Reid's arc every other episode (if not less). 

Agree completely. The lack of concern shown for Reid by the veteran team members is unrealistic. He was one team member everyone used to be so protective about. Now all they do is some designated team member cries over Reid every week and dont do anything at all to help him.

Orders from above never stopped them till now in helping on of their own. Unless they have some big surprise at the end that team was working secretly all this time getting Reid out or something, for me this arc does not make sense.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

5 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

Even worse - IMO - it took the (nearly) newest guy to go in there and blackmail Shaw into protecting Reid.  Alvez.  Not Prentiss, not Rossi, not JJ, not Morgan back for a guest appearance.  Alvez.

Piling on more 'worse' for the implied objective - but going by the opening and closing scenes at the "BAU HQ" this episode, it was framed in such a way that the motivation to help/protect Reid was for Alvez to selfishly get himself in Garcia's good graces. 

I know that is a petty implication of motivations, but with these writers' skillful tale-weaving talents [/sarcasm], it doesn't seem to so farfetched or impossible.

[normasm]

7 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

I agree the team is written to be pretty stupid. They dropped everything to find Garcia's shooter, to help Reid with Hankel, to rescue Prentiss, to rescue Calahan's kids, to rescue JJ, to deal with Doyle...the list goes on.

Yet, this time...inexplicably...they don't lift a finger for Reid.

It would have been so easy for the show to have Mateo Cruz (remember him?) come in and tell Prentiss, "unless you find evidence that connects Reid to Scratch, you're not investigating" or even a line where Prentiss says that's Cruz's order to her...then at least the team can argue their hands are tied.

I do think this arc lacks a focus. If we aren't going to see the team investigate Reid's case then we should at least get a sense of the point of showing Reid's escapades. Is Reid's prison experiences supposed to lead him to a point where he loses belief in the justice system or humanity or his own teammates? Is Reid going to gain new insights on just how depraved people can actually be, now that he's been a part of that? Is prison supposed to show him the futility of the human experience, or at least show him that humanity truly can't be saved? Does prison become an indicator that he's sacrificed too much in his life and received so little back that he now needs to re-evaluate his future?

This first half of your post is very well put, an interesting POV. I was behind showing Reid going through the extreme circumstance of prison if we saw somewhat clearly what he was fighting against or for, and I agree, the show is not giving us that, nor is it giving us the team focusing on fighting for Reid or even against Scratch. It does begin to feel like they are just recasting the Perils of Pauline.

[Hotchgirl18]

11 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

I agree the team is written to be pretty stupid. They dropped everything to find Garcia's shooter, to help Reid with Hankel, to rescue Prentiss, to rescue Calahan's kids, to rescue JJ, to deal with Doyle...the list goes on.

Yet, this time...inexplicably...they don't lift a finger for Reid.

It would have been so easy for the show to have Mateo Cruz (remember him?) come in and tell Prentiss, "unless you find evidence that connects Reid to Scratch, you're not investigating" or even a line where Prentiss says that's Cruz's order to her...then at least the team can argue their hands are tied.

I do think this arc lacks a focus. If we aren't going to see the team investigate Reid's case then we should at least get a sense of the point of showing Reid's escapades. Is Reid's prison experiences supposed to lead him to a point where he loses belief in the justice system or humanity or his own teammates? Is Reid going to gain new insights on just how depraved people can actually be, now that he's been a part of that? Is prison supposed to show him the futility of the human experience, or at least show him that humanity truly can't be saved? Does prison become an indicator that he's sacrificed too much in his life and received so little back that he now needs to re-evaluate his future?

There's just so many angles but the writers are whiffing on all of them. They seem to think that showing Reid being a punching bag multiple times is "drama" when it truly isn't. It's exploitation, pure and simple. Stick JJ, Prentiss, Garcia or Tara in those scenes and the Internet would be howling about how the show is "mistreating women", so the writers should not get a pass for doing it to Reid just because he's a guy. It's sickening, really.

Worse is that this whole arc seems to be more about Calvin than Reid. All Reid is doing is getting beaten up and brooding, but Luke's scene with Calvin gave him some character depth and even suggested that Calvin is running the prison to make up for his own insecurities. We've learned more about Calvin Shaw over these past three episodes than we have about Reid, and this arc is supposed to be Reid's, not Calvin's.

So many double standards lately with CM. It's sickening. 

8 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

That is worse. The cynic in me thinks they're doing that so that Reid's fans are going to start liking Alvez. Haven't seen any evidence of that (to say little about the blatant manipulation tactic).

I would give Prentiss credit for showing concern for Reid if this arc- heck, this entire season- didn't assassinate any credibility she had as Unit Chief. Right now, the decision to tackle other cases while Reid rots in jail is hers and hers alone, and the fact that she's basically let Scratch pick off her team members at will without response calls into question her decisiveness and fortitude.

Small wonder Hotch fans are howling in disgust. There's no way Hotch would have allowed any of this to happen.

Which makes this even worse, because the Prentiss I knew- the S2-S6 Prentiss, the one that Interpol thought so highly of they recruited her to lead their London office- would also not act like the show is making her act right now. That Prentiss would likely do what Hotch did, and maybe even go further- Hotch did worry about what his superiors thought, Prentiss never did seem to give a hoot, so she wouldn't care about "the system"- she'd do everything she could to subvert it.

By Jove, she was a spy who profiled terrorists- do you think she gives one whit about what governments think?

Yet I can see it now- come the season finale, the team will finally get down to solving Reid's case, solving it in an hour and rendering this whole trial and tribulation moot. Afterwards, Prentiss will be praised about how great of a leader she is for taking down Scratch and Reid will likely make some hackneyed speech about how he "never gave up hope and knew his friends would come through for him"...even when we've clearly seen for months that neither are remotely true. 

Hotch would never have allowed any of this to happen. I am disgusted. You're right. Why are they writing Prentiss as a new character? Season 2-6 Prentiss might have a fighting chance. 

8 hours ago, ReidGirl said:

Agree completely. The lack of concern shown for Reid by the veteran team members is unrealistic. He was one team member everyone used to be so protective about. Now all they do is some designated team member cries over Reid every week and dont do anything at all to help him.

Orders from above never stopped them till now in helping on of their own. Unless they have some big surprise at the end that team was working secretly all this time getting Reid out or something, for me this arc does not make sense.

So what's stopping them now?

[ReidGirl]

52 minutes ago, Hotchgirl18 said:

So many double standards lately with CM. It's sickening. 

Hotch would never have allowed any of this to happen. I am disgusted. You're right. Why are they writing Prentiss as a new character? Season 2-6 Prentiss might have a fighting chance. 

So what's stopping them now?

Only MESSer knows. As I said unless she has a very big surprise at the end all this plot looks silly and it also highlights the team members dont care about Reid that much.

Interaction of team members is what makes me want to watch the show even when the case is terrible. If they take that away there is nothing left for me well of course except Reid. 

[Hotchgirl18]

2 minutes ago, ReidGirl said:

Only MESSer knows. As I said unless she has a very big surprise at the end all this plot looks silly and it also highlights the team members dont care about Reid that much.

Interaction of team members is what makes me want to watch the show even when the case is terrible. If they take that away there is nothing left for me well of course except Reid. 

So what's the big "surprise?"

[ReidGirl]

12 minutes ago, Hotchgirl18 said:

So what's the big "surprise?"

I have absolutely no clue. Just hoping that there is some strong reason for all this. But then I know how MESSer writes so I dont think so there would be anything at all.

[Autistic Queer]

On 23/03/2017 at 3:17 AM, willco said:

When Reid said "I could do their taxes or something ", I was thinking maybe he got hit in the head harder than we thought. The guys are in prison, I kind of doubt they have tax worries, especially since they were probably gang bangers in their life before prison.

I assumed the guy was a drug dealer, a lot of them have legitimate business to launder money through, do it's not as stupid as its sounds. 

I still find the Reid storyline too unbelievable. The only good part was Alvez intervention and Jeananne Goossen back on my TV. 

I loved the case of the week, really interesting. I've read about sleep murders, although never a serial killer. Everyone was fairly competent, and it was a decent mystery. 

I really like the new guys, they've been a real breath of fresh air. I can't see anything that makes people dislike all of them. 

59 minutes ago, ReidGirl said:

Only MESSer knows. As I said unless she has a very big surprise at the end all this plot looks silly and it also highlights the team members dont care about Reid that much.

Interaction of team members is what makes me want to watch the show even when the case is terrible. If they take that away there is nothing left for me well of course except Reid. 

The team are all adults, who are mostly very professional. I don't read that they don't care about Reid given that they can get through a day at work without getting an update on his situation which hasn't changed. He's their work colleague, not their child. Although some people seem to think they should care for Reid like he is. 

[ReidGirl]

23 minutes ago, AutisticSpoonie said:

The team are all adults, who are mostly very professional. I don't read that they don't care about Reid given that they can get through a day at work without getting an update on his situation which hasn't changed. He's their work colleague, not their child. Although some people seem to think they should care for Reid like he is. 

Caring for someone does not make them a child. 

[Unkempt]

2 hours ago, AutisticSpoonie said:

The team are all adults, who are mostly very professional. I don't read that they don't care about Reid given that they can get through a day at work without getting an update on his situation which hasn't changed. He's their work colleague, not their child. Although some people seem to think they should care for Reid like he is. 

We'd like to see the team (who are a group of people who investigate crimes for a living) work on solving the crime Reid is accused of.  That's the issue most of us are having here.  They have the power and professional capacity to do something, and they're just not.

How working on his case would equate to babying him, I'm not sure.  It would be nice to see them doing something, though, especially when they've dropped everything for other team members who were in the clink in the past (Elle...Morgan).

Edited March 25, 2017 by Unkempt

[JMO]

I agree with Unkempt.  It's not like he's out of work with a broken leg, or something outside their area of expertise.  He is a situation where his life may be in danger, for the duration, and they are in a position to save it because of what they all do for a living.  They need to explain why they are not, or they need to get busy about doing it.   

[Danielg342]

8 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

Piling on more 'worse' for the implied objective - but going by the opening and closing scenes at the "BAU HQ" this episode, it was framed in such a way that the motivation to help/protect Reid was for Alvez to selfishly get himself in Garcia's good graces. 

I know that is a petty implication of motivations, but with these writers' skillful tale-weaving talents [/sarcasm], it doesn't seem to so farfetched or impossible.

Without getting into the debate, I hate to use the term "rape culture" because it creates an unnecessary hysteria that obfuscates the real malaise, but those activists would be on point here. Using Reid's situation as a way for Alvez to get an "in" with Garcia is just wrong on so many levels- it's "the friend zone" all over again. That last scene where Alvez was telling Garcia "I hope one day I become that guy for whom whose shoulder you cry on" was just revolting. In real life, we'd say that Alvez is trying way too hard and made his own selfishness obvious, to such a point where, if I was Garcia, I'd wonder what his ulterior motives are.

(He's almost...UnSub like...)

I will say, to be fair, likely the writers were thinking this makes Alvez look like he has a heart and is becoming a real friend to Garcia, but they never thought any of it through. It sure sounded like exchanges a bitter male would write (so I was surprised to learn the writer is a woman).

7 hours ago, normasm said:

This first half of your post is very well put, an interesting POV. I was behind showing Reid going through the extreme circumstance of prison if we saw somewhat clearly what he was fighting against or for, and I agree, the show is not giving us that, nor is it giving us the team focusing on fighting for Reid or even against Scratch. It does begin to feel like they are just recasting the Perils of Pauline.

Thanks. I could have taken one episode- the first one- where all we see is Reid getting beaten up, but two or three? That's just dull, lazy writing (on top of it being morally repugnant for objectifying Reid). On top of not seeing "the bigger picture", we also don't see Reid do much in his own story, such as him trying to understand who Calvin Shaw is or even having a genuine feeling that Luis Delgado is innocent and using his team connections to check.

Heck, if they had to do "A/B stories", why couldn't we see the team investigate the prisoners' innocence? Maybe we'd find out a few of them were put in by Scratch giving the team fuel to the fire that Reid was himself put in there by Scratch.

...but no, this has to be about Reid getting pummeled. Poor, weak Reid...poor weak feminine Reid.

I wanna throw up.

2 hours ago, ReidGirl said:

Only MESSer knows. As I said unless she has a very big surprise at the end all this plot looks silly and it also highlights the team members dont care about Reid that much. 

Even if there is some shocking surprise in the last episode, it doesn't make up for the fact that we've been sitting through six episodes of tedium. It may be realistic but it's not satisfying entertainment to me, and it destroys the writers' credibility in that they allowed us to assassinate characters we used to like for so long.

Besides, I don't think I can accept one more "serialized" story from this show that is conveniently- and entirely- wrapped up in 42 minutes. They've done that way too much.

1 hour ago, AutisticSpoonie said:

I really like the new guys, they've been a real breath of fresh air. I can't see anything that makes people dislike all of them. 

I actually don't dislike Walker or Alvez, but I'm finding more and more that I'm liking their characters solely for the actors behind them. Damon Gupton has this nice, endearing drawl that gives him a cool confidence, while Adam Rodriguez has a lot of spunk. Unfortunately their characters have been written to be bland "know-it-alls" that really don't set them apart from the rest of the cast and that appear on too many procedurals already.

As for Tara Lewis...I can't tell if it's directing or Aisha Tyler not being motivated, but I find Tyler doesn't always bring her "A" effort in every episode. There are moments- especially with non-verbal communication- where Tyler really shines, but many other times, Tyler just sounds like she's reciting lines. Tara's character also doesn't have a lot of depth, and her speciality- being able to communicate with prisoners (gee, shouldn't this come in handy with Reid's situation?) hardly ever gets used.

Granted, this show has never been great with characterization, but at least in the Jeff Davis and Edward Allen Bernero eras there was an attempt to differentiate the characters in that you knew what each brought to the table. Erica Messer has failed dramatically in that category.

[Hotchgirl18]

3 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

Without getting into the debate, I hate to use the term "rape culture" because it creates an unnecessary hysteria that obfuscates the real malaise, but those activists would be on point here. Using Reid's situation as a way for Alvez to get an "in" with Garcia is just wrong on so many levels- it's "the friend zone" all over again. That last scene where Alvez was telling Garcia "I hope one day I become that guy for whom whose shoulder you cry on" was just revolting. In real life, we'd say that Alvez is trying way too hard and made his own selfishness obvious, to such a point where, if I was Garcia, I'd wonder what his ulterior motives are.

(He's almost...UnSub like...)

I will say, to be fair, likely the writers were thinking this makes Alvez look like he has a heart and is becoming a real friend to Garcia, but they never thought any of it through. It sure sounded like exchanges a bitter male would write (so I was surprised to learn the writer is a woman).

Thanks. I could have taken one episode- the first one- where all we see is Reid getting beaten up, but two or three? That's just dull, lazy writing (on top of it being morally repugnant for objectifying Reid). On top of not seeing "the bigger picture", we also don't see Reid do much in his own story, such as him trying to understand who Calvin Shaw is or even having a genuine feeling that Luis Delgado is innocent and using his team connections to check.

Heck, if they had to do "A/B stories", why couldn't we see the team investigate the prisoners' innocence? Maybe we'd find out a few of them were put in by Scratch giving the team fuel to the fire that Reid was himself put in there by Scratch.

...but no, this has to be about Reid getting pummeled. Poor, weak Reid...poor weak feminine Reid.

I wanna throw up.

Even if there is some shocking surprise in the last episode, it doesn't make up for the fact that we've been sitting through six episodes of tedium. It may be realistic but it's not satisfying entertainment to me, and it destroys the writers' credibility in that they allowed us to assassinate characters we used to like for so long.

Besides, I don't think I can accept one more "serialized" story from this show that is conveniently- and entirely- wrapped up in 42 minutes. They've done that way too much.

I actually don't dislike Walker or Alvez, but I'm finding more and more that I'm liking their characters solely for the actors behind them. Damon Gupton has this nice, endearing drawl that gives him a cool confidence, while Adam Rodriguez has a lot of spunk. Unfortunately their characters have been written to be bland "know-it-alls" that really don't set them apart from the rest of the cast and that appear on too many procedurals already.

As for Tara Lewis...I can't tell if it's directing or Aisha Tyler not being motivated, but I find Tyler doesn't always bring her "A" effort in every episode. There are moments- especially with non-verbal communication- where Tyler really shines, but many other times, Tyler just sounds like she's reciting lines. Tara's character also doesn't have a lot of depth, and her speciality- being able to communicate with prisoners (gee, shouldn't this come in handy with Reid's situation?) hardly ever gets used.

Granted, this show has never been great with characterization, but at least in the Jeff Davis and Edward Allen Bernero eras there was an attempt to differentiate the characters in that you knew what each brought to the table. Erica Messer has failed dramatically in that category.

That she has, my friend. And honestly, I think DG should stick to conducting. 

Are you saying Alvez had ulterior motives?

[Danielg342]

13 minutes ago, Hotchgirl18 said:

Are you saying Alvez had ulterior motives?

I don't think he does...I'm sure the writers would like me to think that he does not.

...but, given that he was so over the top in prodding Garcia to be "her shoulder to cry on" it sure sounds like a guy who did what he just did- help Reid- to manipulate Garcia for his own ends. So many other UnSubs have done that- or done something similar that it's hard for me not to think that could possibly be what is going on here.

I doubt that's what we'll get but it would make for an interesting character, I think.

[Hotchgirl18]

Just now, Danielg342 said:

I don't think he does...I'm sure the writers would like me to think that he does not.

...but, given that he was so over the top in prodding Garcia to be "her shoulder to cry on" it sure sounds like a guy who did what he just did- help Reid- to manipulate Garcia for his own ends. So many other UnSubs have done that- or done something similar that it's hard for me not to think that could possibly be what is going on here.

I doubt that's what we'll get but it would make for an interesting character, I think.

A team member with ulterior motives. That would be really interesting.

[Hotchgirl18]

Maybe that's the surprise! An agent with a darker side. 

[Danielg342]

I know Messer once said that a team of profilers should be able to snuff out an infiltrator, but Walker did come in halfway through the season and while the team was reeling from what happened to Tara and Hotch. They may not be on their toes this time.

[Hotchgirl18]

1 minute ago, Danielg342 said:

I know Messer once said that a team of profilers should be able to snuff out an infiltrator, but Walker did come in halfway through the season and while the team was reeling from what happened to Tara and Hotch. They may not be on their toes this time.

Could Luke be that infiltrator. Or with Reid in prison, what if it's *gasp* Reid?!

[Drogo]

1 hour ago, Danielg342 said:

That last scene where Alvez was telling Garcia "I hope one day I become that guy for whom whose shoulder you cry on" was just revolting. In real life, we'd say that Alvez is trying way too hard and made his own selfishness obvious, to such a point where, if I was Garcia, I'd wonder what his ulterior motives are.

(He's almost...UnSub like...)

He might just be a nice guy who recognizes a good person having a hard time with current events.  Occam's Razor.

[Danielg342]

1 minute ago, Drogo said:

He might just be a nice guy who recognizes a good person having a hard time with current events.  Occam's Razor.

That's likely how this will play out. Real life would be different.

[Drogo]

I think real life would be the same. Alvez is trying to offer friendship to someone who clearly needs it; I do this all the time, no one seems to think I have ulterior motives. 

As far as characters with ulterior motives who are trying too hard, I have my eye on the caretaker Reid hired.

[Hotchgirl18]

7 minutes ago, Drogo said:

I think real life would be the same. Alvez is trying to offer friendship to someone who clearly needs it; I do this all the time, no one seems to think I have ulterior motives. 

As far as characters with ulterior motives who are trying too hard, I have my eye on the caretaker Reid hired.

Yeah. Say, what happened to her?

[Kara101]

5 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

 

Thanks. I could have taken one episode- the first one- where all we see is Reid getting beaten up, but two or three? That's just dull, lazy writing (on top of it being morally repugnant for objectifying Reid). On top of not seeing "the bigger picture", we also don't see Reid do much in his own story, such as him trying to understand who Calvin Shaw is or even having a genuine feeling that Luis Delgado is innocent and using his team connections to check.

Heck, if they had to do "A/B stories", why couldn't we see the team investigate the prisoners' innocence? Maybe we'd find out a few of them were put in by Scratch giving the team fuel to the fire that Reid was himself put in there by Scratch.

...but no, this has to be about Reid getting pummeled. Poor, weak Reid...poor weak feminine Reid.

I wanna throw up.

Ugh, yes. In the earlier seasons they knew the stereotype that Reid projected but then they had Reid constantly turn it on its head . Heck, Reid knew how he was perceived by others. But he also knew how to use it to his advantage. He could also usually hold his own. But now he is a little weakling being beat up by these macho men. I understand that prison is different than real life. But he isn't even trying. He has always been deceptively strong (and I'm not talking about brute.) I think the earlier seasons really did a great job showing how strong Reid was even without muscles. 

By the way, I never really saw Reid as feminine, but I think the current writers might. Perhaps that is because Reid ( at least in the early seasons) was a nerd with bad social skills, which is very much a male archetype. It isn't what society perceives as the "optimal" male archetype (ie jock) but still very much male. The lonely genius/good at math/bad at social skills trope has always been male.

 I also think a reason why Reid has always come as so "non-alpha" is because of the other men Reid works with. Hotch and Morgan were extremely and unusually "alpha." They were the exception among men, and I think the vast majority of men next to either of them would be looking pretty "non-alpha." In a normal workplace I don't think Reid's "alpha-ness" would be any different than the other men/a complete non-factor. Of course, a maximum security prison isn't a normal segment of the male population either, but I think they are having him rise less to the occasion than even a normal guy on the street would. Which is ridiculous. 

 

It's not the fact that Reid even wants to protect others in prison that's making him look weak. It is that he is failing at it. If he wanted to defy prison rules and protect Luis, fine. But he is doing a terrible job, and is coming off as a helpless damsel. Which, despite how he may come off, he has never actually been. 

I used the word "alpha" more times in this post than I was ever hoping to use in my entire life.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Haleysgalaxy

[normasm]

3 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

Heck, if they had to do "A/B stories", why couldn't we see the team investigate the prisoners' innocence? Maybe we'd find out a few of them were put in by Scratch giving the team fuel to the fire that Reid was himself put in there by Scratch.

...but no, this has to be about Reid getting pummeled. Poor, weak Reid...poor weak feminine Reid.

The FBI is not in the Department of Justice, so they can't look into cases where people might be innocent. 

People who get pummeled aren't weak because they get pummeled. And weakness certainly is not feminine. 

[Danielg342]

3 minutes ago, Haleysgalaxy said:

By the way, I never really saw Reid as feminine, but I think the current writers might.

That's the way I read it (no pun intended). The way the team used to be structured, Hotch was the leader, Rossi was second in command, Morgan and JJ were the muscles, and whomever replaced Prentiss was the stereotypical "tough but warm" female agent.

(Now I'm not even sure I know how the team is being structured)

That doesn't leave a whole lot for the team's "emotional centre" so it got left to Reid and Garcia, who is also shown to be pretty "weak" herself. In this structure, it's intended that Reid and Garcia act as the team's "children" that they see as people they need to protect, out of the idea that the rest of the agents are capable of handling themselves. We can argue about the effectiveness and morality of this arrangement, but the fact remains that I believe the writers see Reid and Garcia as the two characters who are supposed to be most vulnerable on the show.

Given this, it's likely that the writers felt putting Garcia in too much peril would anger "the Internet" who seem to hate seeing any woman having to deal with any kind of challenge and label anyone who dares criticize that belief to be a sexist (see the row over Star Wars' Rey).

So they decided that to avoid a backlash, Reid would be the one who would get lashed, while Garcia would just cry about it (and other random things).

Which then leads to this, the prison storyline, which seems to be an excuse to ramp up Reid's damsel-ness.

I'm with you, it's insulting that the show is using this as a reason for Reid to be ineffective, but I'll also go further- it's hypocritical to do it to Reid when, time and again, CM has used many other throwaway characters who do nothing for the story except to be beaten by the Monster of the Week. Simply put, doing it to Reid does not make objectifying him in any way right- I think it's even more wrong, especially because we've come to know Reid to be a much better, more complete- and capable- character than that.

[Danielg342]

3 minutes ago, normasm said:

The FBI is not in the Department of Justice, so they can't look into cases where people might be innocent. 

People who get pummeled aren't weak because they get pummeled. And weakness certainly is not feminine. 

I know, but this show has played loose with the rules before. I also think it would have at least given Reid a purpose while he's in jail, because he'd be the kind of person who'd help others even when he needs the most help.

As for "feminine=weakness", I don't think, personally, that feminine qualities are weak. I believe they are quite strong. However, Hollywood storywriting usually dictates that if you have a character who is going to end up in peril and "needs to be saved", it's usually a very feminine woman. In the CM world, it's arguable whether or not the female cast members (except for Garcia) are really "feminine" by Hollywood standards, so they put those traits onto Reid, who is very sensitive. Ergo, Reid becomes the one who needs "saving", because he occupies the role in Hollywood that used to be occupied by women.

[Kara101]

Yeah, it's tough to label things "feminine" or "masculine," especially due to how, er, political(?) it can get. I don't think either one is superior to the other one. "Vulnerable" is probably a better word to use, like danielg342 did in the post above me. I just don't think the writers would have hotch/morgan/Alvez, the certified "tough guys" act like Reid is, so that's why I used the word feminine, even though it doesn't really fit. "Weak" would be the better word, but of course I don't think femininity is weak. I think the writers think any guy who isn't "alpha" must automatically be "weak." 

I am kind of going in circles here. I just hope I didn't offend anybody. I certainly did not mean to conflate femininity and weak. I just think the writers conflate non-alpha ness and weak.

What I meant was that in hollywood any man not resembling the hulk in personality is seen as "other." And since this made Reid into a damsel, I called it feminine, since usually females play that role.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Haleysgalaxy

[normasm]

Reid has never needed "saving" before now. In nearly every instance I can think of over the canon, Reid has gotten himself out of danger, out of weird predicaments, has survived apocalyptic situations, and tricked or persuaded unsubs into giving themselves up peacefully, all the while defending weaker people such as Luis. If he needs saving now, it's because the prison system is against every inmate, and for the corporate interest of money. I agree it could be written better with the BAU finding ways to help exonerate him, but his trying to survive inside is not weakness (and not feminine), it's survival.

[JMO]

One of the reasons I love the character of Spencer Reid is that I think he defies stereotypes.  He was a child prodigy growing up in a dysfunctional household where he had to become a caretaker at a very young age.  All of that left him very socially isolated, which resulted in the awkwardness we saw when he first joined the team.  I wouldn't want to confuse that with immaturity.  I think Reid matured as a child, because of those very same things.  

What makes him vulnerable is his isolation.  He's as strong as any, and stronger than some, internally.  But he has only his colleagues as social support,  When they are otherwise engaged, he is alone.  That doesn't make him weak, it makes him lonely.

In the prison circumstance, I think he's been off his game.  I don't agree that he should have been trying to profile his way out of danger on day one.  All of this happened suddenly, and after his brain was assailed with drugs.  He needed to recover, and then to get the lay of the land.  Not to mention that it's actually very difficult to engage on that level with those who are far less intelligent than he is.  He could go after Shaw, and it looks like he might----but the goons are just goons.  They follow orders, because they're not smart enough to do anything else.  Which makes them not smart enough for Reid to be able to turn them with words.  

Baby Reid looked like a child, and was treated as one by Gideon.  But that was 12 years ago.  I don't think adult Reid is seen as a child by anyone on the team. 

I actually see Hotch and Reid as being equally vulnerable, because they were both so isolated.  And I think both have served as the tragic heroes of the show.  They bear the burdens for everyone else, because it's more dramatically effective, and because both actors are so good at it.

Edited March 26, 2017 by JMO

[Kara101]

4 minutes ago, normasm said:

Reid has never needed "saving" before now. In nearly every instance I can think of over the canon, Reid has gotten himself out of danger, out of weird predicaments, has survived apocalyptic situations, and tricked or persuaded unsubs into giving themselves up peacefully, all the while defending weaker people such as Luis. If he needs saving now, it's because the prison system is against every inmate, and for the corporate interest of money. I agree it could be written better with the BAU finding ways to help exonerate him, but his trying to survive inside is not weakness (and not feminine), it's survival.

I guess I just think he's doing a very bad job on the "survival" part. He's also not in a private prison, so I don't think the corporate interest of money is involved. I think it's the inmates that are the problem, not the prison itself.

[ReidGirl]

4 hours ago, Unkempt said:

How working on his case would equate to babying him, I'm not sure.  It would be nice to see them doing something, though, especially when they've dropped everything for other team members who were in the clink in the past (Elle...Morgan).

This is exactly what I was trying to say. Helping your team member in the same area which you are supposed to be expert in does not make them your children. Especially if we are suppose to believe the team is like a family.

I just wish they had shown Reid using some of his skills in prison to save himself.

Also I dont have anything against new team members but when you watch a show for so many seasons you get attached to the characters. So suddenly keeping Alvez in front all the time and giving Reid less screen time does not help. That is just my opinion.

[normasm]

Even some federal prisons are privately owned and run. Money is king there.

[ReidGirl]

8 minutes ago, JMO said:

One of the reasons I love the character of Spencer Reid is that I think he defies stereotypes.  He was a child prodigy growing up in a dysfunctional household where he had to become a caretaker at a very young age.  All of that left him very socially isolated, which resulted in the awkwardness we saw when he first joined the team.  I wouldn't wouldn't want to confuse that with immaturity.  I think Reid matured as a child, because of those very same things.  

What makes him vulnerable is his isolation.  He's as strong as any, and stronger than some, internally.  But he has only his colleagues as social support,  When they are otherwise engaged, he is alone.  That doesn't make him weak, it makes him lonely.

In the prison circumstance, I think he's been off his game.  I don't agree that he should have been trying to profile his way out of danger on day one.  All of this happened suddenly, and after his brain was assailed with drugs.  He needed to recover, and then to get the lay of the land.  Not to mention that it's actually very difficult to engage on that level with those who are far less intelligent than he is.  He could go after Shaw, and it looks like he might----but the goons are just goons.  They follow orders, because they're not smart enough to do anything else.  Which makes them not smart enough for Reid to be able to turn them with words.  

Baby Reid looked like a child, and was treated as one by Gideon.  But that was 12 years ago.  I don't think adult Reid is seen as a child by anyone on the team. 

I actually see Hotch and Reid as being equally vulnerable, because they were both so isolated.  And I think both have served as the tragic heroes of the show.  They bear the burdens for everyone else, because its more dramatically effective, and because both actors are so good at it.

This is just perfect description of Reid. I am not very good with words in general. But this just prefectly describes everything about him and why I love his character so much.