Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[ostentatious]

But he did make magically appear from his pocket the Picture of Doom when Shado asked about Sara. We are supposed to believe it's always been there, and never fell from his pocket ;)

What ep is that? Are you saying he pulled out the pic and they just didn't show what it was a pic of?

I don't remember him pulling out the picture, I just remember it being mentioned. Oliver tells Shado that Sara is Laurel's sister and Shado says "the girl in the picture?" I don't recall it actually being shown.

So she could've seen it at any time from the point she joined up with Oliver and Slade. That makes more sense. I have a feeling Oliver stopped hauling that thing out after Slade served him up some truth tea about the situation.

I believe that's the only time the picture was mentioned in S2. It was never shown (unless it popped up in 211).

I don't think Oliver even has the picture in Hong Kong. I suspect the picture won't pop up until S5 after Oliver goes back to the Island to stage his rescue. That's the only way I can see them tying it back to S1 Oliver. He finds the picture on Lian Yu while surrounded by ghosts (Sara, Shado, Slade, Yao FeI) and latches onto the picture as a cymbol of home.

I have every confidence this is exactly what happens. It was probably stuffed into a hole in the fuselage (it was a fuselage right) that they used for shelter. He was at an incredibly low point, took shelter there, found the pic. Because if he kept it on him it would've been lost or ruined when he was in the water before Waller picked him up. Edited April 12, 2015 by ostentatious

[AyChihuahua]

Shado: What about the girl in the picture?  The girl you SAID you were in love with?  Laurel?

Oliver: Sara is...her sister.

Shado: Seriously, are there antibiotics on this island?  Please say yes.

[Morrigan2575]

Shado: What about the girl in the picture?  The girl you SAID you were in love with?  Laurel?

Oliver: Sara is...her sister.

Shado: Seriously, are there antibiotics on this island?  Please say yes.

thanks, I had it reversed but you're right. Oliver tells Shado, Sara was with him on the boat, which prompts her to ask him about the girl in the picture.

[nksarmi]

Shado: What about the girl in the picture?  The girl you SAID you were in love with?  Laurel?

Oliver: Sara is...her sister.

Shado: Seriously, are there antibiotics on this island?  Please say yes.

You almost made me bust in laughter that no one in my house would understand.

[looptab]

What ep is that? Are you saying he pulled out the pic and they just didn't show what it was a pic of?

No, IIRC they showed the picture itself. I'm sorry, I don't remember in which episode, and I can't check right now. But I will post it as soon as I can go watch. 

I love the wallet theory,I'm sure I saw a variation of it around the internet,LOL

Edited April 13, 2015 by looptab

[Chaser]

In S1, did he make a big deal about that photo or surviving with the thought of getting back to Laurel? I thought we just saw him look at it a few times in private. I don't think the picture is going to be that difficult to get around. They already established that he wasn't rescued, he choose to come back. And that it was to right his family's wrongs not because of his great love. Him finding that photo in his old belongings and realizing he needs to make personal amends as well isn't a far stretch. 

[ostentatious]

In S1, did he make a big deal about that photo or surviving with the thought of getting back to Laurel? I thought we just saw him look at it a few times in private. I don't think the picture is going to be that difficult to get around. They already established that he wasn't rescued, he choose to come back. And that it was to right his family's wrongs not because of his great love. Him finding that photo in his old belongings and realizing he needs to make personal amends as well isn't a far stretch.

The only time I have found (and I'm up to 121) when thoughts were articulated is in The Odyssey. He and Slade think they're getting off the island shortly and Oliver is looking at the pic, Slade says you'll be with your girlfriend again soon, Oliver tells him he was on the boat with her sister and he just wants to make things right, and that is when Slade says something like "if you think you can sleep with your girlfriend's sister and make it right you're dumber than I thought...and that's saying something."

I didn't go back to 101 or 102 today, not sure if there is anything in those that would indicate he actually thought of it as some magical talisman. I think that is fanon.

And further watching 121, other observations:

1. Didn't remember Laurel herself is the one who tells him nobody sleeps with their girlfriend's sister unless they're trying to blow up the relationship

2. This ep contains the flashback to her bringing up moving in together to him; so yet ANOTHER O/L scene (and rare flashback) used to NOTP.

3. And it also contains the flashback to her *giving* him the pic. I didn't remember it happening so late. So unless this fact was stated in an earlier episode and I missed it, in this ep we find out that this wasn't a pic he carried with him back home, not something he had deliberately brought with him, but just something random that he had nothing to do with, and shoved in his pocket after Laurel gave it to him.

Edited April 13, 2015 by ostentatious

[statsgirl]

I thought we saw the scene with the picture in the pilot but I checked and it doesn't seem to be the case, although he had it a lot on the island in season 1, Yao Fei and Slade even mocked him for it.  If that scene was only in 121, then it looks like it's part of the NOTP because it wasn't Oliver's decision to take Laurel's picture with him, it was something she gave him at the last minute.

[kismet]

I read some fanfic the other night that retconned the pic of Laurel as reminding OQ of home & not necessarily his relationship w/ LL. In my head, even before I read that fanfic, that's what I always thought of the picture as. It was a reminder of home, since it was the only thing he really had from the Gambit - he even lost his original clothes (although that wasn't a bad thing, those shorts were horrible). I'm guessing, if I was stranded on Torture Island, I would hold onto anything that reminded me of home, esp if it was a portable as a picture. So in my mind, it was never about LL, esp by the time s2 rolled around. Didn't he eventually take the arrowhead as a talisman? That seemed to replace the pic, in reminding him of his family & home, which is why I thought he gave it to Thea.

Edited April 13, 2015 by kismet

[BkWurm1]

Sigh. I love that moment. It actually meant more to me than Oliver's "I love you" earlier in the episode because it was just so weighted with meaning. I mean wow. She was his dying thought.

 

I was actually surprised though. In fact, I remember watching and cringing in anticipation because I thought well, if ever there's a time to put Laurel back in the game, showing her in his dying thoughts was it. And yeah, I probably only thought that way because of the comics history hanging over everything. So it was a very pleasant surprise for me personally.

 

Pretty much my exact thoughts.  It made "killing" Oliver almost worth it.  

It's in Oliver's wallet, and Felicity's going to find it one day and realize that he's loved Laurel, all this time, despite the fact that the picture was stuck to the back of his expired AAA membership card. 

 

 

 

(I'm being mean, I'll stop.)

The first time I read this I seriously read AAA as AARP as in sometime in his late eighties after being married for fifty years. 

 

The picture to me came to represent the wrongs he had to right (or try to) and once he was back home, proof that he had survived. But I also remember the flashback where Laurel pretty much forced it on him in a very awkward scene that screamed he was full on trying to make her break up with him no matter what kind of reassurances he gave to Sara about her sister never finding out. 

[looptab]

I'm posting this again because I just realized that when I edited my post last night there were already other posts after it, and it could have easily being missed/looked like I ignored the request:

 

 

What ep is that? Are you saying he pulled out the pic and they just didn't show what it was a pic of?

I checked, it was in 2x08, The Scientist. Oliver takes it off of his pocket when Shado mentions it, and there's a clear shot of Picture Laurel.

 

 

-To those who had read, apologies for being repetitive :)

[looptab]

From the Behind the Mask thread:

Yes, I agree that most of the greater focus on the relationship drama has been a failure of the villain arc. I also feel this season has been too driven by plot & not character, so there is another major stumbling point. You brought up some good interpretations/points as well. :) The only point I will slightly defend against is your #3, I never said relationships were "exclusively" what was being discussed by fans/media. I said "heavily revolving"around, which means they talked about it a lot, but there have been other stuff discussed as well. But it does feel like an abundance of stuff that has been discussed somehow relates back to the romantic angst/drama, where in other seasons it has been hero or team/family angst/drama; or completely unrelated to angst/drama but rather just the characters or story itself.

 

I never meant to imply that the romantic drama was so the sole intent or driving force of their narrative. It should always be part of it, but never the sole force. It is part of the equation of the narrative, so if one part is failing the other side takes on more burden/focus. If they had written better character & season arcs, then we would not be in this situation of relying on romantic angst/drama or cliches to fill the voids.

 

So I apologize if you misunderstood what I was trying to say in the initial post. I was responding to the previous posts that implied that the romantic tension of will they/won't they is something the show is/would/should use to keep audience attention. IMO, I prefer a more balanced approach to story-telling on a show like Arrow where you have the ability to do drama, comedy, action, romance and intrigue. I don't think will they/won't they is one of the stronger story telling tools they have in their arsenal. It works on a show that is more geared towards procedural (where the romantic tension is part of the continuity) or dramas/comedies that are more soapy in nature where the romantic tension is their bread & butter. I think it has a very short shelf life as audience bait on a show like Arrow.

 

I can't tell the difference of the discussions between this and previous seasons, since I started watching the show just last summer. But I find people discuss different topics on different sites, so I guess that depends on which corners of the internet one frequents :)

 

No need to apologize, maybe I should if I came across rude ( I can never tell if I use the appropriate tone when writing). I guess I associated what you were saying to a lot of posts I've been reading recently (not here) that this season sucks because of Olicity and because that's where all the writing efforts go to, and I jumped to conclusions.

Really, maybe it's the failure of everything else that makes it look like that relationship is the only thing that's happening. If the main villain doesn't make that much of an impact and most of the stories don't make any sense, of course the only semi-coherently told story is the one that sticks with people. But I definitely agree that the writing has been lacking, and that the romance shouldn't be the only focus of the show. Then again, I don't think it's being treated as such. :)

Edited April 13, 2015 by looptab

[ostentatious]

I'm posting this again because I just realized that when I edited my post last night there were already other posts after it, and it could have easily being missed/looked like I ignored the request:

 

I checked, it was in 2x08, The Scientist. Oliver takes it off of his pocket when Shado mentions it, and there's a clear shot of Picture Laurel.

 

 

-To those who had read, apologies for being repetitive :)

 

Interesting, because...isn't The Scientist one of the eps KC isn't in?

 

And wrt the question up thread about when Felicity expresses Shado-like sentiments about sister-swapping, it's in Crucible:

 

Sarah Lance? Laurel's sister? The detective's other daughter, the one that you took on "The Gambit" with you even though you were dating Laurel at the time, which we never talked about-- 

Edited April 13, 2015 by ostentatious

[kismet]

Here's hoping they don't do anything romantic with Mae (or is it Mai?) & OQ, because I don't think I could tolerate OQ choosing to be romantically/physically involved with another sister pairing (even if one is dead). He should have learned from the Lances.

[KirkB]

Oliver, at that point, really hadn't learned much of anything with regards to women. He was in love with, or at least had feelings for, Shado and on some level might have been drawn to Mai (I'm guessing) because of her face. On the other hand, Mai meeting this crazy guy who got her apartment shot up and watched both her dad and sister die, hopefully wouldn't want anything more to do with him.

[kismet]

Oliver, at that point, really hadn't learned much of anything with regards to women. He was in love with, or at least had feelings for, Shado and on some level might have been drawn to Mai (I'm guessing) because of her face. On the other hand, Mai meeting this crazy guy who got her apartment shot up and watched both her dad and sister die, hopefully wouldn't want anything more to do with him.

I understand the draw and the possible attraction. It makes perfect sense, esp considering he didn't know about her until that moment. So he's probably trying to process his emotions regarding Shado & Yao Fei in relation to their newly discovered family member. He never got to say all he needed or wanted to say to Shado, so Im sure some of that probably crossed his mind. The episode she was in did not bother me. Other than me wondering who would let a complete stranger (even if they knew my dead sister) shower in their apt while she babysits a kid she just met. Seriously, who does that? I just meant moving forward I want OQ to avoid any sister sharing/swapping/interchanging. I hope Mai is not brought back in a romantic sense should they use her again in flashbacks or present day.

[steeledwithakiss]

When I think too much about Oliver romantic entanglements I feel sick. I mean the guy slept with a pair of sisters and with his father's ex. I know he didn't know when he slept with Isabel, but still.

Edited April 13, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[dtissagirl]

The sad part is I can totally see flashback!Oliver putting the moves on Mei, because he IS the kind of idiot who would.

But if he did, I sinceriously hope Mei's response would be 1. the hysterical laughter kind of LOL NO, or 2. punching Oliver really hard in the face. Maybe a combo of both.

[statsgirl]

Oliver has trouble knowing what love is, as opposed to available sex.

 Other than me wondering who would let a complete stranger (even if they knew my dead sister) shower in their apt while she babysits a kid she just met. Seriously, who does that?

I thought that was so weird. She just said "the bathroom is in the back". Doesn't she have any stockings hanging over the shower rod that she wants to move before he showers?  Give him clean towels so he doesn't use hers?

 

I hope Oliver wouldn't sleep with Mei.  Other than it being disrespectful to Shado's memory, isn't he on the run from ARGUS?  Only James Bond sleeps with every available woman when he's on the run.

[kismet]

The sad part is I can totally see flashback!Oliver putting the moves on Mei, because he IS the kind of idiot who would.

But if he did, I sinceriously hope Mei's response would be 1. the hysterical laughter kind of LOL NO, or 2. punching Oliver really hard in the face. Maybe a combo of both.

Not flashback Oliver. I think being with Shado & his first 2 yrs on Lian Yu had already changed him to not immediately put the moves. Honestly, I trust FBOliver at this point, its the writers I don't trust. But pre-island Oliver, I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't invite her into the shower with him. Forget Akio just pop in a DVD to occupy him.

Edited April 13, 2015 by kismet

[ostentatious]

When I think too much about Oliver romantic entanglements I feel sick. I mean the guy slept with a pair of sisters and with his father's ex. I know he didn't know when he slept with Isabel, but still.

 

I think maybe that moment when he found out about his dad and Isabel was more of a turning point than I thought at the time. His *face*. He was about to vomit, really. And thinking of the intersection of his sex life and inappropriate familial relationships surely made him think about the Lance sisters. Surely, SURELY that was a come to Jesus moment for that boy.

 

And I...kind of don't mind so much if he sleeps with Mei. We know he hadn't acquired any sense at all by that point. If the Lance sisters weren't even the ONLY sisters he slept with it puts them into even more illuminating perspective.

 

"That still doesn't deny the fact that up till that point, Laurel was more important to Oliver than Diggle was. Oliver has never mistreated Diggle whilst being in love with Felicity. Because his love for her doesn't cloud his judgement. And isn't that the kind of relationship that is good for Oliver and his relationship with Diggle?

 

In retrospect I think Oliver wasn't so much overwhelmed by lurve for Laurel as he was desperate to try to fix things that were important to her because of his guilt. Sure, she'd never *know* it was him, but it helped the tally in his mind.

Edited April 13, 2015 by ostentatious

[steeledwithakiss]

I think maybe that moment when he found out about his dad and Isabel was more of a turning point than I thought at the time. His *face*. He was about to vomit, really. And thinking of the intersection of his sex life and inappropriate familial relationships surely made him think about the Lance sisters. Surely, SURELY that was a come to Jesus moment for that boy.

That moment was amazing, the way SA played it. I really felt like it shook him up. Then again that didn't stop him from asking Sara to move in with him a few episodes later, knowing everything started because he didn't want to move in with Laurel. Seriously everything up until the third season (Diggle and his brother's widow, Thea kissing her brother, everything Oliver) was a twisted mess. It reminds me of a Friends' quote "do you really want to be in a relationship where you can actually use the phrase "That's not how your dad used to do it"? Add brother/sister and you have s1/2 of Arrow.

 

I'm glad the writers decided their hero was better with someone he didn't share such a complicated and horrible past. There is no guilt and awkwardness and hurt. It's refreshing even though they're angsty as hell right now, it's good angst, no the I wannna throw up kind.

Edited April 13, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[dtissagirl]

Not flashback Oliver. I think being with Shado & his first 2 yrs on Lian Yu had already changed him to not immediately put the moves. Honestly, I trust FBOliver at this point, its the writers I don't trust. But pre-island Oliver, I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't invite her into the shower with him. Forget Akio just pop in a DVD to occupy him.

Last season in the present time story he still didn't have ANY resemblance of impulse control wrt sex. Isabel and Sara were both impulsive decisions he made about sex, that ended up having TERRIBLE CONSEQUENCES, because dumbass had sex first, thought about what he was doing later. In the case of the dinner from hell with the Lances, didn't think AT ALL about what he was doing.

And I agree with @statsgirl, Oliver has real trouble discerning sex from love. Maybe he's overcompensating now, for the pre-Island playboy years, I don't know. But it's oh so very GIRLY of him. Hee.

[DrSpaceman10]

The sister-swapping (both past and present day) is one of my least favorite things about all three seasons of Arrow. Seriously, who thought it was a good idea for Oliver to hook up with both sisters again in present day? They should have just left it in the past. 

 

In my opinion, one of the things that Season Three got right was making Oliver a one-woman guy, it's really benefited his character. 

[kismet]

Last season in the present time story he still didn't have ANY resemblance of impulse control wrt sex. Isabel and Sara were both impulsive decisions he made about sex, that ended up having TERRIBLE CONSEQUENCES, because dumbass had sex first, thought about what he was doing later. In the case of the dinner from hell with the Lances, didn't think AT ALL about what he was doing.

And I agree with @statsgirl, Oliver has real trouble discerning sex from love. Maybe he's overcompensating now, for the pre-Island playboy years, I don't know. But it's oh so very GIRLY of him. Hee.

True. Very true the boy does have a hard time discerning sex from love and love from sex. But his impulsive control has gotten better.

 

He didn't immediately jump Sara or start a relationship, he waited until she said she was home and clearly indicated that she was interested. I mean that was a mutual lunge. There was also the mutual trigger of her near death & family drama that was consuming both of them that needed a little distraction. As for the whole moving in thing, I never saw that as anything more than a practical solution to a plaguing housing problem. And Isabel, that was just 2 consenting adults wanting to have a one night stand after having a spark over a few shots of vodka. Same scenario plays out in bars every night, all over the world. The father thing, that was just the writers room love of ickiness. It also helped him figure out that Robert knew that he was no Thea's bio dad, since Isabel was privy to that piece of history. Altho I still wanna see whats on that Thea video that OQ stole fro QC. Both decisions were not the best in retrospect, but I think they were all consensual, realistic & not that uncommon or too impulsive.

 

So I maybe wrong about him & Mai in relation to him wanting to immediately sleep with her. I'm just gonna sit in my little corner over here hoping that the path to OQ not making questionable decisions about sleeping with family members started that day in Hong Kong, and Sara was an exception because it had already happened prior to him getting on this path.

[Password]

Oliver over compensating by being entirely celibate is something I can cheer on because he always turns to sex when he wants to hide from expressing feelings. He doesn't think with his brain at all and tbh, it's something he needs to learn how to do.

I think that's what bothered me so much about Oliver and Sara hooking up again. Very little thought went into the action and then no one even acknowledged the relationship until Roy threw shade at it. I had to once again reevaluate where I thought Oliver was emotionally. First Laurel in season 1, then Sara. It was just so poor from Oliver I didn't know where to look.

[dtissagirl]

Yeah, but, you know, he slept with Laurel less than a year before he and Sara lunged. Yuck. And sure, Sara also lacked impulse control. But it wasn't just a near death experience. Sara tried to kill herself. I know the narrative itself kind of forgot about that, and then completely minimized it in the S2 finale with the jacket, and Laurel grinning like a lunatic. But they went from Oliver bringing Sara back to life with his magic herbs to "let's jump each other and then try for a serious relationship" hours after a suicide attempt. That is not... smart.

And Isabel wasn't a random woman Oliver met at a bar. She was actively trying to take over his company. And hey, she successfully did months later, because Oliver thought he could trust her... basically because they had sex. Again. Not very smart.

I love Oliver, I do, but really, the smartest thing he's ever done EVER was fall in love with Felicity.

Edited April 13, 2015 by dancingnancy

[ostentatious]

That moment was amazing, the way SA played it. I really felt like it shook him up. Then again that didn't stop him from asking Sara to move in with him a few episodes later, knowing everything started because he didn't want to move in with Laurel. Seriously everything up until the third season (Diggle and his brother's widow, Thea kissing her brother, everything Oliver) was a twisted mess. It reminds me of a Friends' quote "do you really want to be in a relationship where you can actually use the phrase "That's not how your dad used to do it"? Add brother/sister and you have s1/2 of Arrow.

 

I'm glad the writers decided their hero was better with someone he didn't share such a complicated and horrible past. There is no guilt and awkwardness and hurt. It's refreshing even though they're angsty as hell right now, it's good angst, no the I wannna throw up kind.

The Isabel slept with Robert reveal was late in 219, and he asked Sara to move in at the top of 220. So...maybe the desire to settle down was kinda influenced by this new awareness of how gross his life has been.

And I will never not believe that Oliver was with Isabel at least partly to throw both himself AND her off the Felicity trail. I mean...Diggle was out on the mission. This was mid-mission. Oliver is a lot of things but I don't think a few minutes in the sack with Isabel was enough to distract him at that point.

[kismet]

Yeah, but, you know, he slept with Laurel less than a year before he and Sara lunged. Yuck. And sure, Sara also lacked impulse control. But it wasn't just a near death experience. Sara tried to kill herself. I know the narrative itself kind of forgot about that, and then completely minimized it in the S2 finale with the jacket, and Laurel grinning like a lunatic. But they went from Oliver bringing Sara back to life with his magic herbs to "let's jump each other and then try for a serious relationship" hours after a suicide attempt. That is not... smart.

And Isabel wasn't a random woman Oliver met at a bar. She was actively trying to take over his company. And hey, she successfully did months later, because Oliver thought he could trust her... basically because they had sex. Again. Not very smart.

I love Oliver, I do, but really, the smartest thing he's ever done EVER was fall in love with Felicity.

I know its all a matter of perspective. And the writing choices were all over the place. I never saw Oliver & Sara as a serious relationship. They both were emotionally not in a good place so they defaulted to comfort/physical relationship. And that is how I rationalize it in my head.

 

As for the signing of the company, I don't think he signed his company over because he slept with Isabel. I don't think the one-night stand factored into his trust consideration. since I think he was too distraught over Thea that he wasn't thinking & Slade was getting inside his head. His compartmentalization was breaking down. Pretty sure he would have made the same decision even if they hadn't slept together. Sleeping with her was a dumb move, because it gave Isabel insight into how he thinks, so she was able to get in his head better. But I have made some dumb choices in my life, so I will not hold it against Oliver that he let the Vodka & loneliness talk a little more than usual. I also personally always thought he used sleeping with Isabel as way to get her away from putting her claws into Felicity. He was probably trying to put to rest the rumors in her mind that he was not sleeping with FS. Maybe he was trying to believe it a little bit himself, that he didn't want to sleep with FS.

 

I love Oliver and his journey! Basically the main reason, I watch the show. I love how layered and complex he is. But hands down, the smartest thing that boy has EVER EVER EVER done was fall in love with Felicity!! Shame he doesn't recognize how much he is deserving of having love.

[ostentatious]

I think to an extent, Sara was a practice relationship for Oliver. Like Diggle points out Helena was. We all go through those relationships. The thing about them is that at the time we don't know they're practice. You only know that once you get to the one that is the actual show.

Sara was very safe for him. Someone he had been with before, known forever. The female version of himself. Like him, getting out of the assassin lyfe with difficulty, so she needed saving, and a place to land. He could be that place.

He was practice for her for the same reasons, but more from the "can I live a normal life with various normal trappings at all?" and the answer was no. She couldn't handle being back in the mundane world full time, even with superheroing. To me she was a cat, in that way.

I think he knew he wanted to try, but he wasn't going to make his first try with Felicity. And I don't think even the tiniest bit of this was conscious, but then again Oliver never understands his own feelings and motivations. He's bad at that even for a dude.

Edited April 14, 2015 by ostentatious

[steeledwithakiss]

The Isabel slept with Robert reveal was late in 219, and he asked Sara to move in at the top of 220. So...maybe the desire to settle down was kinda influenced by this new awareness of how gross his life has been.

And I will never not believe that Oliver was with Isabel at least partly to throw both himself AND her off the Felicity trail. I mean...Diggle was out on the mission. This was mid-mission. Oliver is a lot of things but I don't think a few minutes in the sack with Isabel was enough to distract him at that point.

Nitpticking but I think the reveal was in 2x18. Anyways I agree Isabel was his way of saying "See I really don't like Felicity that way" to her and to himself, but then Felicity showed at his door and his self denial started to crumble cue the "Because of the life that I lead" speech.

 

As for Sara I can understand the why, but Oliver 2x14-19 was an insufferable douche and I can't help but think that everytime he gets closer to the Lance sisters his worse traits are exarcerbated. s1 Oliver, everytime Laurel was involved, was the worse though.

[ostentatious]

Nitpticking but I think the reveal was in 2x18. Anyways I agree Isabel was his way of saying "See I really don't like Felicity that way" to her and to himself, but then Felicity showed at his door and his self denial started to crumble cue the "Because of the life that I lead" speech.

 

As for Sara I can understand the why, but Oliver 2x14-19 was an insufferable douche and I can't help but think that everytime he gets closer to the Lance sisters his worse traits are exarcerbated. s1 Oliver, everytime Laurel was involved, was the worse though.

Isn't The Man Under the Hood 219?

http://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=arrow&episode=s02e19

It's in the transcript.

But yeah, nothing turns Oliver into Olliever faster than an adjacent Lance. Though his wariness of Laurel has protected him this season.

[steeledwithakiss]

You're right I don't know why I thought he had discovered Isabel was his father's mistress the same episode Thea was kidnapped.

 

Ollie is the worst, and though Oliver's fear to be happy in s3, as Felicity put it, drives me crazy sometimes, I never despise him like I did in s1/2 when he was deep in the Lance drama.

Edited April 14, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[statsgirl]

He was safe for Sara, but I still got the impression that Sara wanted it to be more.  (Nicely done, CL.)  If for no other reason, it would have justified her leaving Nyssa behind.

And Isabel wasn't a random woman Oliver met at a bar. She was actively trying to take over his company. And hey, she successfully did months later, because Oliver thought he could trust her... basically because they had sex. Again. Not very smart.

I thought that scene at the end of Keep Your Enemies was well written and well acted by SA and EBR.    Felicity had a crush on him but she was half "what is wrong with you, man?  She tried to steal your company.", and Oliver knew that he had been wrong to sleep with Isabel but he still hadn't really figured out why.

 

The lines "So we're not going with what happens in Russia stays in Russia?" "We're still in Russia." are some of the funniest of the show.

[ostentatious]

I don't think Felicity had the slightest clue he was talking about her, as the someone he could really care about, which said a lot about their relationship. People kept claiming that Felicity had this huge crush, not Oliver, but I thought he started falling for her long before she ever put him under any actual consideration, because she's practical, and it seemed so out of the realm of things that might actually happen in her life that she just didn't get in that headspace. And then he said that, and winced, which she didn't see, and killed a dude for her, and threw jealous mantrums, and after 210 when she displayed her UTTER lack of comprehension by calling Barry the one guy who is interested in her and she didn't see Oliver's face which was like "how can she not SEE?!" I think he knew he had to handle his shit. So he cooled it.

[TanyaKay]

But yeah, nothing turns Oliver into Olliever faster than an adjacent Lance. Though his wariness of Laurel has protected him this season.

 

There are a couple of things that endeared Oliver greatly to me this season; his monogamous love for Felicity even though he is not in a relationship with her, and his obvious refusal to get involved in Lance family drama (like he refused to teach Laurel in 2x03 and then discouraged her attempts at vigilantism and then refused to let her know about anything important until he was declared dead in Starling). Laurel kinda assumed that vigilante position in his absence.

He is just so done with the Lances and righty so. I just hope that he at least hates Quentin Lance marginally after the hussy fit he threw in last episode. I mean his foundry would be compromised and raided by the police and his protégé would be attacked in jail. He would be justified in blaming it on Quentin Lance refusing to see that the fault lies with his surviving daughter and indirectly at him for raising socially irresponsible daughters.

I would gladly buy every Arrow merchandise available if they assure me that we would not see any Lances ever again on Arrow. They have all served their purpose and they actually belong in day time soaps.

Edited April 14, 2015 by TanyaKay

[statsgirl]

As good as Oliver is at compartmentalzing, Felicity isn't without her own skills in that area.  I think she had a crush on Oliver in the way many of us have a crush on Stephen Amell -- he's so pretty, and yum, but not for me.  Oliver liked the leggy model-type and Felicity thought that he was out of her league.  As she said in Blast Radius, finally a guy gets interested in her and he ends up in a coma. And later he moves on, while still in a coma.  Her lack of awareness about her attractiveness is one of the more attractive things about her.

 

But Oliver, who was used to getting any woman he wanted without even trying, was kind of aware of his feelings for her and closing himself off from her, something he's still doing now in 3x18. 

 

I agree that she didn't think that he was talking about her in that scene, or even later.  As clueless as Oliver can be, Felicity also has problems in that area when it comes to men.  In 3x09, she was still telling Ray that one man regretted kissing her, and by 'one man' she meant Oliver.  So it was a pretty big shock when he told h er he loved her before heading off to fight Ra's.  And then he came back and tanked their relationship again.

[TanyaKay]

I don't think Felicity had the slightest clue he was talking about her, as the someone he could really care about, which said a lot about their relationship. People kept claiming that Felicity had this huge crush, not Oliver, but I thought he started falling for her long before she ever put him under any actual consideration, because she's practical, and it seemed so out of the realm of things that might actually happen in her life that she just didn't get in that headspace. And then he said that, and winced, which she didn't see, and killed a dude for her, and threw jealous mantrums, and after 210 when she displayed her UTTER lack of comprehension by calling Barry the one guy who is interested in her and she didn't see Oliver's face which was like "how can she not SEE?!" I think he knew he had to handle his shit. So he cooled it.

 

When She said that the one guy was interested in her and he is comma now, Oliver's expressions were priceless ... he was like .... "who am I, chopped celery or strawberry jam?"

 

Honestly, barring her comment about noticing his physique in 1x12, I never saw Felicity crushing on him. She was friendly but not so close in season 1 with random witty one liners thrown in, she also looked at him while he worked out shirtless but what heterosexual woman would not do that? She was much closer to him as a friend, confidante and co worker in season 2 but I NEVER saw her crushing on him. She always held her own against him and she cared deeply for him - probably even loved him - but it was never conscious - hence her utter shock in 2x23 when he actually said I love you to her.

[apinknightmare]

I think people conflate Felicity being appreciative of Oliver's body with her having a crush on him.

[dtissagirl]

I think people conflate Felicity being appreciative of Oliver's body with her having a crush on him.

This. And it came with so much commentary about feeling sorry for Felicity for her unrequited crush? Meanwhile I was just going "Oliver is SO SCREWED, haha."

[BkWurm1]

That moment was amazing, the way SA played it. I really felt like it shook him up. Then again that didn't stop him from asking Sara to move in with him a few episodes later, knowing everything started because he didn't want to move in with Laurel.

 

His asking Sara if they should get an apartment together was a very subtle and interesting choice the writers made because it seemed clear that there was a world of difference between sharing a place because of practical reasons and deciding to MOVE IN TOGETHER!  It's always been the moment I point to when Sara realized her relationship with Oliver was never going to grow beyond a convenience, a filler, a place holder while they healed. (Albeit one with real affection and respect)

 

For Oliver it was just a casually tossed out there suggestion and that really went along with him not thinking through hook ups or relationships.  In many ways, he was still just taking his comfort where he could find it without thinking about the future.  Then with Slade he was back to a place where he didn't think he had a future (ready to trade in his life) but people around him wouldn't let him give up. Then Slade further forced him to think about who he loved and who that was and he hasn't been casual about romantic relationships since.   Actually he's gone too much the other way, IMO, going from casual to can't at all. 

Edited April 14, 2015 by BkWurm1

[statsgirl]

I think Caitlin would be appreciative of Oliver's body but she wouldn't have behaved the way Felicity did around him even early on.

 

A crush is like a flirtation, it's there but it doesn't have to go anywhere.  It's an acknowledgment that you're sexually attracted to the other person.

I think people conflate Felicity being appreciative of Oliver's body with her having a crush on him.

Diggle's got a pretty great body too that she can't fail to appreciate especially with the shirtless sparring, but i"m pretty sure Felicity's feelings about Oliver were different than her feelings about Diggle even back in season 1.

[kismet]

I have seen people say that his "because of the life I lead speech" was to let her down easy & keep her at bay. But I have always thought that he gave that speech more for himself than for her. She asked a simple factual question, but he gave a very detailed emotional answer. Like others have mentioned, he was already deep in before he in realized he was in. He then spent the next few months trying to walk himself back, from his reactions to Barry, his relationship w/ Sara. Until he was made to really think about it when I think it was Blood that told him Slade would kill whoever he loved most. The fear became very real to him then when he witnessed his mother's death & had to relive the memory of shado's death.

 

Her question, why her? only felt more emotional & intimate because of the answer OQ gave her. Granted EBR did play it a little on the hurt side, but it was not whiny or triggered out of personal insecurity in my mind. Considering the friendship established in s1, it would not have been weird for her to ask a that question friend to friend. I think she was honestly just curious. She helped encourage McKenna and was not dismissive of his relationship with LL. So its not uncommon for her to be on periphery of his relationship. I actually think that she was not talking about herself when she said someone better. In many ways, her comments helped OQ be open to a relationship with Sara. And when that happened she was supportive of that relationship. She was more concerned about her place on the team. It was not about being jealous of their relationship.

[Chaser]

I wonder if SA was approaching S2 like Oliver was falling in love with Felicity.  And how much he knew then about the season because he talked about how surprised he was by Oliver and Sara.

[TanyaKay]

I think Flash has established it pretty well that Caitlin is a very reserved person by nature. I also get a feeling (not substantiated by cannon) that she is probably a little older than Barry and Felicity who are both 25 year old in the shows.

 

Bring in Iris West instead of Caitlin and she would behave 10 times more flirtatiously than Felicity ever did (I don't think she did but YMMV) in season 1. I mean she saw a very serious and reserved Oliver in Flarrow episode and she was in a happy committed relationship with her boyfriend but she swooned over Oliver Queen and practically salivated over the width of his arms.

 

Felicity behaved differently with Diggle because he assumed a very different role with her from the beginning. Their first time working together was to save Oliver in 1x14 and he calmly walked her through everything, then he became his trainer in 1x16 after she had bomb collar attached to her in 1x15 (he was also there for her through that ordeal). He practically assumed the big brother role in that relationship from the word go. Plus he was shirtless like twice in season 1 and Oliver was practically shirtless in every episode back in the day (good times).

[apinknightmare]

Diggle's got a pretty great body too that she can't fail to appreciate especially with the shirtless sparring, but i"m pretty sure Felicity's feelings about Oliver were different than her feelings about Diggle even back in season 1.

Or maybe she wasn't attracted to Diggle?

[kismet]

Diggle is also older than her by probably 10 years or so, so that could have played into it. Whereas, OQ is closer to her in age. Plus OQ was definitely shirtless in far more scenes than Diggle ever was. So by the shear numbers, she has more opportunity to gawk over OQ, but who knows if she might have done something similar if Diggle walked around shirtless as much. But honestly, I don't remember her gawking over OQ that much when you actually watch the show. It was there, but its not as prominent as it seems on tumblr or fanvids. But I do agree with TanyaKay that the relationship between Felicity & Diggle was set up as more brotherly from the beginning. It really does feel like he is her big bro in s1&2. This season for reasons they separating them, but I do wonder if he had been allowed to interact more with RP & her, what he would have told her about the relationship. If his yoda-ing might have helped release her from RP island sooner. But reasons deemed that they barely even talked until the wedding. I still don't understand why she never offered to have RP train with Diggle & get some well needed moves. The suit can only do so much.

[Password]

I think they've been very deliberate in their segregation of team Arrow this season. None more plain than Dig choosing sides when he's normally very neutral, nigh team Felicity. It was all set up so her interactions included Ray whereas you would normally think they'd include Diggle.

It's something I'm very annoyed about.

I think I'm also unsurprised that she didn't think Ray would need training. Not just because he's meant to have a supersuit, but because she encouraged inexperienced Laurel to fight. That and I think she wanted to keep her two lives separate.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Password

[ostentatious]

I have seen people say that his "because of the life I lead speech" was to let her down easy & keep her at bay. But I have always thought that he gave that speech more for himself than for her. She asked a simple factual question, but he gave a very detailed emotional answer. Like others have mentioned, he was already deep in before he in realized he was in. He then spent the next few months trying to walk himself back, from his reactions to Barry, his relationship w/ Sara. Until he was made to really think about it when I think it was Blood that told him Slade would kill whoever he loved most. The fear became very real to him then when he witnessed his mother's death & had to relive the memory of shado's death.

Her question, why her? only felt more emotional & intimate because of the answer OQ gave her. Granted EBR did play it a little on the hurt side, but it was not whiny or triggered out of personal insecurity in my mind. Considering the friendship established in s1, it would not have been weird for her to ask a that question friend to friend. I think she was honestly just curious. She helped encourage McKenna and was not dismissive of his relationship with LL. So its not uncommon for her to be on periphery of his relationship. I actually think that she was not talking about herself when she said someone better. In many ways, her comments helped OQ be open to a relationship with Sara. And when that happened she was supportive of that relationship. She was more concerned about her place on the team. It was not about being jealous of their relationship.

Yeah, the very fact that he thought he needed to give her an answer that, had she been paying attention, she would have interpreted as the admission of feelings for her that it was...that he thought he needed to explain to her why Isabel and not her...and no, I don't think she meant herself as the "better than her." I think this whole scene showed that he was further along than she was. But lbr, he had been keeping her close for a very long time because he can't stay away from her.

I think that Felicity had a sense that she was Not His Type, and also remember that unlike us, she did not know the writers regretted Laurel, so from her POV Oliver was emotionally tied up with her. And she is logical, so the fact that she is single - which he knows because she told him - and still asks other women out but never her indicates he isn't into her that way. Felicity isn't ugly, and she knows he likes her, so the simplest explanation is that she is not his type. She obviously sees Laurel as the leggy model type, she sees Isabel that way. She is physically quite different from them and from McKenna. Hell, maybe she thinks he's only into brunettes.

Before 112, Oliver very much seems to be flirting with her and she's flirting back, it's escalating. He keeps coming around with his dumb stories, she keeps performing the requested tasks while letting him know he isn't fooling her. Dig wasn't the one responding to her like that. Dig wasn't flirting with her. He was watching them flirt and trying not to smile. Oliver really changed after 112, because that trust moment was so huge for him that she was no longer a very very pretty girl he liked a lot, but a very very pretty girl he liked a lot and needed, emotionally. The trust moment filled a hole inside him. I mean, no one trusts him, no one ever has, and understandably. But she's just handing it to him. He hasn't proven anything to her, he hasn't tied himself into knots or performed grand gestures to EARN her trust. He hasn't courted it. The opposite, in fact, but there it is, something no one else gave him, and suddenly something he'd never even thought existed became something he absolutely had to keep. Look what magically appeared: a relationship he hadn't destroyed. He could *not* lose it.

If Moira hadn't shot him, he would've found a way to bring her in anyway. You can tell how much he just wanted to be *around* her. Truly, and I know they hit this hard and everyone knows it but it's like she is the sun.

Edited April 14, 2015 by ostentatious

[wonderwall]

IMO I feel like his feelings started to grow deeper after the undertaking when Diggle and Felicity went all the way to Lian Yu to get him back. I mean, here's a girl who is willing to risk her life in a shitty plane and sky dive (even though she hates heights) onto a remote island which may or may not be safe in order to bring this guy back. I think just knowing that changed Oliver's attitude towards her. It showed that Felicity would go really far for him, in a way that no other woman had before (not that he deserved it), and I think that it struck Oliver that this woman was different. 

 

At least, that's what I like to believe.